[music] Marcus Grodi: Good evening
and welcome to 'The Journey Home.' I'm Marcus Grodi,
your host for this program. Once again, we have this opportunity
to relax and sit back and listen to how the
Holy Spirit has touched someone. And often my guest come
short distances, often they come from
a belief in Jesus, as a non-Catholic to belief
in Jesus as a Catholic. And well, in some ways,
that's still a long journey. But, for some,
it's not quite so long. But then, I have my guests
that come from no belief in God, to all the way to
the Home to the Church. And that's what's happened
in tonight in our guest, Doctor Jennifer Frey. Welcome to the program. Jennifer Frey: Thanks. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Marcus: Jennifer, it's good
to have you here. Jennifer: I'm really
excited to be here. Marcus: And former atheist
associate professor of Philosophy at the
University of South Carolina. And I kind of heard
through the works here that your other half
is also a Philosophy professor. Jennifer: Yes. Marcus: At the same school.
Right? Jennifer: Yes. My husband is
a philosopher. Marcus: Okay.
Well, that's good. It's good to,
to have you here. And you also have
a podcast called 'Sacred And Profane Love.'
Right? Jennifer: Yes, I do. It's a philosophy, theology
and literature podcast. Marcus: Okay. Awesome. Jennifer: So, yeah. Marcus: Well, maybe in the
second half of the program we can hear
more about that. Jennifer: Sure. Marcus: All right.
Okay. Good. Well, let's pause a bit. And I'll back off and
invite you to start us on the journey
if you would. Jennifer: Yeah. Well, so I, actually,
I'm from Ohio. Marcus: Oh, okay. Jennifer: Yeah.
I'm from Cincinnati. Well, I'm actually just
north of Cincinnati. I don't know how well
you know the area. But, I'm from
Hamilton, Ohio. Marcus: Oh, yes. Jennifer: Yes. And my dad worked in
one of the two main paper mills in Hamilton,
Champion Paper, which, of course,
no longer exists, along with the other paper mill, and also, probably every other
manufacturing job in Hamilton is now gone. But, growing up in the 80s Hamilton was still
a manufacturing town. So, quite different
from it is now. And, you know,
we were just a very... I mean, I was a 'none'
in the demographic sense, NONE. So, no religion. Marcus: Parents, nothing? Jennifer: No. My parents were... I'm not even sure if my
parents were baptized. I was thinking about
that on the way here. Marcus: Really?
Wow. Interesting. Jennifer: I'm not sure.
I should ask them. But, no. My parents explicitly
rejected Christianity. So... And for
different reasons. So, my mother grew up in
dysfunctional poverty. And there was a lot of fundamentalist Christianity
centered around that. So, from my mother's
perspective, Christianity was associated with
ignorance, racism... Marcus: Yeah. Jennifer: ... and kind of
like a hillbilly way of thinking about things that she desperately wanted
to move away from. So, my mom left the house
when she was 16 and got married, because, she wanted
to get away from that. And she married my father, who at the time
was a radio DJ in Hamilton. And my dad just grew up
kind of nominally Methodist. So, you know, Whatever kind of
waspy cultural inheritance that would have given him... My dad's dad was an
Italian immigrant. And so, my great-grandfather,
Guido Giulio would have been Catholic, would have been
baptized Catholic. In fact, I know the church that he would have been
baptized in in Italy. But, when he came
to the US, he was one of the Catholics who
ended up in the coal mines in West Virginia. And I think he just
lost the faith, lost the practice of the faith. There probably weren't
that many Catholics around. But, I also think that was a
very hardscrabble kind of life. And... Yeah. So, my dad had like
a funny Italian name. But, he really had no
Italian heritage, either religiously
or otherwise. So, he grew up
nominally Methodist. And I think
like a lot of boomers, he was extremely suspicious
of authority. And so, any kind of
organized religion where they're telling you what
to believe and what to do was kind of antithetical
to the zeitgeist. So, he very much rejected
organized religion. I also think, you know remember
like this is when I'm a kid. It's the 80s. I think he had a very
strong association between organized religion and
political conservative, conservatism. And he was a union guy. You know, he was a union guy,
a blue-collar worker. And so, I think that
was part of it too. He saw it as against
his politics. Marcus: So,
with two parents that, seem to me, not only
didn't say anything, but, maybe had
a negative view of faith. And here you are,
in philosophy. Jennifer: Yes. Marcus: Did your parents
have a philosophy of life that you picked up young? How did they...?
I mean there's no God, did they have
a philosophy of life that they would convey to you? Jennifer: Yeah. That's such
an interesting question. I mean, they had
a political vision, which was definitely
communicated to me at a very early age. And I was pretty liberal. Although, it was a
different kind now. Right? So, it's not the kind of
political progressivism that we see now. Marcus: Yeah. Jennifer: It was just sort
of good old-fashioned kind of moral relativism, maybe just an old-fashioned
liberalism that would take it that, you know, it's the responsibility of
government to take care of people and meet
their needs, strong, strong... We need strong unions;
we need strong public education, kind of FDR,
sort of democratic vision I think that they were
very strongly tied to. And so, that was
communicated to me very early. Politics was very
important in my family. And, of course, we were
very much against the grain because this is Reagan-ism
and everybody... You know, the social world
was very different from my household, because, the social world where
I grew up was very religious, very evangelical, and also
very invested in Reagan-ism. And then, in my home,
there's no religion, and Ronald Reagan is,
you know, not someone that
I was meant to admire. So, it was interesting
growing up. I knew that we were
different in a lot of respects. But, you know, my parents,
it was like a loving home, loving supporting home. Just there was no God. I mean, it's true
that my parents had a somewhat negative
view of religion based on their
personal experience. But, they were very
tolerant people. And I think that was part
of their political vision. You know, they really
thought that tolerance and civility
were very important. So, they would always say to me,
like, 'We don't do that. We don't believe in that. But, it's really important
to other people. And you need to
respect them.' Marcus: Yeah. The golden rule is not
just a Christian thing. Jennifer: Right. Marcus: It's
our conscience. Jennifer: Right. Marcus: I mean, if you want
to live together as a group of people, whether you
believe in God or not, it comes down to,
you do unto others, as you would have them do
unto you. Jennifer: Right. Marcus: That's kind of
the way you live together. Jennifer: Right. And there were aspects of
the Christian vision of morality that my parents
were invested in. Marcus: Yeah. Jennifer: For example,
unconditional love and forgiveness, care for the poor, this kind of post-Christian
secular philosophy that has a lot of Christian
elements in it. So, there was a lot of
post-Christian secular politics. But, no Christ. Marcus: Yeah. Jennifer: That's how I would
think about it now. Yeah. Marcus: Our guest is
Doctor Jennifer Frey. How long did this last? I mean, was this
into high school? Jennifer: Well, so,
in his school, I became a more
serious atheist. Right. So, I would say growing up,
it just was like, we don't practice a religion,
we don't talk about God. But that is... That you could kind of
describe as agnostic or indifferent-ism is maybe
a way of characterizing it. But, in high school, I started to
actually think about whether or not
I believed in God. And I decided... I definitely did not. So, in high school, I... You know, if somebody had
asked me, I would just say like,
I'm an atheist. And it wasn't... It wasn't like a huge
part of my identity. You know, I wasn't like
a new atheist. And I definitely wasn't
a bully about it. But, I was an atheist,
a pretty committed atheist. And I was trying to think
through what that meant for me. Marcus: As you said, in a
culture in that part of Ohio were a majority of the people
around you might have been at least nominal Christian,
if not evangelical Christian. Jennifer: Right. They were. Marcus: Were you a bit
ostracized at all in the midst of that
because of your anti...? Jennifer: No. No. I mean, the funny thing is, when I reflect back on
this experience, there really were almost no
social consequences of being an atheist. Right? So, I was very popular,
you know. I mean, the one social
consequence is just that the really committed
evangelicals were invested in me in ways that were annoying. So, they would be like... They would constantly be like,
"You got to be saved." And I would be like, "I'm good.
I'm really good," you know. And, of course,
they don't back off. And we would just tease
one another about it. But no, There really were
no major social consequences. I mean, every once in a while there would be an awkward
conversation with parents. But, as a teenager, you don't really care what
the grown-ups think so much. It's more about
your social sphere. So, no. And I would also say that... Even though it's true
demographically that the majority of people
around me were evangelical, I would say that they
were examples of what sociologists called
'Moral Therapeutic Deism.' Right? So, this kind of
Christianity as self-help, you know, where it really... It doesn't demand
anything of you. It doesn't even demand
that you go to church. It's like Jesus
is my best friend. And, and He's always there
for me no matter what I do. It's that kind of thing. And I frankly could not
take that seriously. I was like,
that's not serious. Marcus: Were you,
at that time that you had moved into
a serious atheism, making the direct connects
in terms of, well, there is no God and there is
no purpose, you know, that kind of the no beginning. There's no end. I remember reading
not long ago the statement of an old man,
just before he died, and he said, "You know,
I don't know where we came from. I don't know
where we're going. All I know is when I die, I'm just going to
become fertilizer to replenish the earth
for the bad I've done to her." You know what I mean. Were you making those
direct connects? Jennifer: No.
I never believed that. I always had a very
strong sense of morality. So, right and wrong. And I believed that... And that was actually one
of the things that really turned me off
about Christians, is that, it didn't seem to
matter to them whether or not they did
really bad things. They were saved. And I just thought,
that's crazy. I mean, if you murder someone, you've wronged them
and you're guilty. And that should
have a very... That should bear
a kind of significance. And so, I thought it was
preposterous that Hell would be filled with
people like me, just because I hadn't
been saved. And it would, you know, like there would be
all these murderers in Heaven. And so, I just thought, well, this just
fundamentally makes... Marcus: Oh yeah. Jennifer: ...makes no sense. Marcus: That's fascinating. Jennifer: So, I didn't
think because there's no God I can do whatever I want. Marcus: Yeah. Jennifer: I would say that
the most important value to me at that age
was something like integrity, something like
personal integrity. Like, you have to live in
accordance with what you believe and you have to be faithful to
whatever your vision is. Marcus: Yeah. Jennifer: And I thought there
were strong moral constraints especially constraints
of justice. My parents did have a strong
sense of social justice. That was instilled in me. Marcus: I remember asking
an atheist, in the 16th century, which figure
would that person admire? I was trying to get him,
the reformers. And he said, "Thomas More." I said, "Why Thomas More?" "Because, he was willing
to die for conscience." Jennifer: Yeah. Marcus: Willing to
die for conscience. Jennifer: Yeah. Marcus: That's an integrity
that you're talking about. Jennifer: Yeah. Marcus: But, it's also
fascinating to think about... And audience, I think this is
important to pick up. It's not just you were
an atheist versus Christianity. You were atheist in
the context of a specific thread of
Christianity... Jennifer: Yeah. Marcus: ... that had this idea
that "Once saved always saved. I therefore can kind of
live in my life." Well, that was shaping
your atheism. I'm not going to be that. If that's Christianity,
I want nothing to do with that. Jennifer: That's right. Marcus: I mean,
that in itself is, I think fascinating. If we have more time
to explore on that. So, there you are in
high school, a flaming atheist. Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't know...
I don't know how flaming I was. I don't... I don't. Marcus: Well, those
evangelicals were sure you were flaming. Jennifer: Yeah. Marcus: That's where they
assumed you were heading. Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was
pretty committed. And I wanted to be,
by the end of high school, I wanted to be an
intellectually serious person. It took me a little
while to get there. But, once I was there,
I stayed there. And so, I wanted things
to make sense. And I had a really strong
appetite for knowledge, you know. And that also kind of
set me apart from a lot of other people
in high school. I wanted to understand things. And I think part of that
was because I was an atheist. You know, everybody else
kind of had a story that was
given to them. And I didn't have a story. And, you know, by the time I really started
thinking about things, I realized there's a lot
that I don't understand on some very general level, which, of course, led me into
philosophy pretty... Marcus: All right.
All right. Jennifer: Yeah. So, I mean, when I got
to college, I was really disappointed, because, I don't know, you... I at least, for whatever reason, had this idea of college
as a very serious thing. And I got there and it was
just like high school, in so many ways. And I was done
with high school. I was done with high school
when I was still in high school. And I really
wanted to learn. And so, what happened was I kind of fell in
with the graduate students. I couldn't really connect
with other undergrads who were still just interested
in going to parties... Marcus: Right. Right. Jennifer: And all
this kind of stuff. I had no... I did all that
in the high school. I'm like, I've done all that. I'm ready to do
something else now. And they were not ready. So, I started hanging out with
a lot of graduate students, particularly philosophy
graduate students. And I just had this
voracious appetite for what I didn't know
at the time, but, you know,
now I can articulate and say I had a voracious appetite for
philosophical knowledge, you know, the kind
that Newman speaks about in the idea of the university. And... Yeah. I just spent all
this time in study. And one thing that really
changed for me was that my first Philosophy
professor was very religious. So, it was a really
interesting... At the time, I saw it
as a contradiction. But, he was simultaneously
the smartest, most sophisticated person
that I had ever met. You know, his degrees
were from Balliol College, Oxford and Harvard. And, you know,
he was British, just this incredible
intellectual and social pedigree. But, he was also the most
religious person I had ever met. He was an orthodox Jew. So, he kept the Sabbath. He kept kosher. He set aside time to be holy,
to be set apart. And I couldn't understand how these two things
had converged. Right? It was just like... And so, I remember, you know,
asking him... Because, we eventually became
very close friends. But, I remember going to him
and being like, "So, this Jewish thing,
you know, that's like cultural. That's because
like the Holocaust. Like, you know, like it's
really important to you now to have this
cultural thing." And he was like,
"Well, I believe in God." You know, like it's not just...
I mean, yes. There is a cultural
element to it. But, I believe in God. And this was... I don't know, I mean,
this sort of like opened up space for me to see
that you can be religious and intellectually
serious. Which is something that I
honestly thought was impossible. And then... Marcus: Did he engage you
in any of the arguments at that point? Or was it just the fact
that he was a philosopher? Jennifer: Just the fact. Marcus: And he moved on. Yeah. Jennifer: Just the fact. I mean, I was so... It's really hard
for me to overstate how impressed I was
with my philosophy professor and just how alien
the whole thing was to me. And so, it opened up a certain
conceptual space for me that like, this is a path. And then,
once you notice something, you can't unnotice it. Right? Marcus: Right. Jennifer: And so, then,
I started to see that there; there's actually more than
one intellectually serious religious person
in the world. There are, in fact, many. But, another game changer
for me was... So, my first philosophy class
was existentialism. And we did read
Kierkegaard, by the way, which was fantastic. I love Kierkegaard. But, a lot of the
existentialist philosophy really made no
sense to me. I was like, this is not right,
you know. This kind of solipsistic,
self-determinative idea of the human person is
entirely self-created. I'm like, I don't think
this is right. You know, this doesn't
feel true to experience. There seems like something
really off about it. And I couldn't
articulate it. But, my next class was
Medieval Philosophy, which is a complete 180. You know, it's the
exact opposite. And we're reading Boethius
and we're reading Anselm and we're reading Aquinas. And, you know, what, I mean,
what happened is, you know, I was 18. And I absolutely fell in
love with Thomas Aquinas. I just was like,
this makes sense. You know, this
makes sense. On a metaphysical level,
this makes sense to me. This makes sense to me
morally, you know, the concept of natural law and the role that conscience
plays in natural law and the idea that just in living
according to the principles of
our own nature, we participate
in the divine law. And so, it's not this
kind of brute voluntarism. It's not. Right? Like, in fulfilling my nature
is the kind of thing that I am. I'm obeying God's law. That was a completely
new way of thinking. Marcus: Well, right. Jennifer: Right?
And it made sense to me. I was like, well,
that makes sense. Now, I still didn't
believe in God. Marcus: Yeah.
I was going to say, you're making a comparison
between what's in here... Jennifer: Right. Marcus: ... to this divine,
as opposed to what's in here is the collective
thinking of ages. Jennifer: Right. Marcus: As a
horizontal thing. Jennifer: That's right. Marcus: All of a sudden,
you've got a vertical thing here that you don't
have a place for that. Jennifer: That's right.
That's right. And so, there was this
immediate contrast between the existentialist
conception of freedom, and then, the Christian
conception of freedom. I didn't mention
Augustine. But, we read Augustine's
'De Libero Arbitrio,' which is his little
treatise on 'Free Choice.' And I was like, "No. That's a conception
of freedom. That makes sense of me. That seem much,
much better than what I had been studying
the previous semester. And so, I became really
sort of obsessed with this question about whether
or not you could rationally assent to the proposition
that God exist. And what would that mean? What sort of
proposition is that? And I sort of fell off
the cliff, really, like studying this stuff. I pretty much lived in
the library insofar as I could. And eventually what
happened was I decided that you could
rationally ascent to the proposition
that God existed. But, there was a big gap
between that and Christianity. Because, Christianity has
the doctrine of the trinity. Which is complicated. Marcus: Well, yeah. So, your little step
was into agnosticism. I mean, you were going... Or just deism. In other words,
there's a God. Jennifer: Yeah. Well, I mean, I wouldn't
have said I was a deist. Because, there's a lot of
baggage that comes with that. Marcus: Yeah. Right. Jennifer: And there are a
lot more commitments that come with that besides
believing in God. But, I was beginning to take
Classical Theism very seriously. Right? As an intellectual position
that deserved respect and investigation. Marcus: Yeah. Jennifer: Right? That it could be true. Which is a big leap. Right? Because, I realized like, I was actually a very terrible
atheist. You know, a good atheist
understands what she rejects. And I was not
a good atheist, because, I didn't really
understand what I was rejecting. I mean, what I was rejecting
was a social cultural phenomenon that I grew up with. Right? Which is I think what
a lot of atheists are rejecting is a kind of social practice
that they don't fit into and don't want to fit into. But, when you actually
start to look at what classical theism says, right, it's something
much more sophisticated. And yeah. So, what happened
at that point was I made a very serious
long study of the Patristics. And that was really a kind
of auto-didactic sort of thing. I mean, I was
just reading it. Simultaneously, I was
learning Latin and, because, I wanted to be able to
read this stuff in the original. Marcus: So, you're reading
the Christian Patristic... Jennifer: Yeah. Marcus: ... as opposed to
Latin Greek philosophies. That was also
happening, probably... Jennifer: Well, I'm still
doing that, because, I'm a philosophy major. Marcus: Right. Right. Jennifer: So, I'm still reading
Plato and Aristotle. And Cicero was
really huge for me. As an undergrad,
I absolutely adored Cicero. But yeah, I'm reading the
Ante-Nicene Fathers and the Post-Nicene Fathers
and the Nicene Fathers. Marcus: Yeah. Jennifer: And that was...
Once you read those guys, there's no question about whether or not you're going
to be a Protestant. It's just, am I going to be
Catholic or Orthodox or not? Marcus: Yeah. Well, I mean, we're
still at the... And as I'm hearing
your journey and you're starting to be
awake to this, the reality of a vertical, you know, that there's
a God up there. And it seems that before
you get into the battle of whether you're
a Catholic or Orthodox, and as Newman says, "You have to
become deep in history. That Protestant thing
just doesn't hold" Jennifer: No.
It's not even... I mean... Marcus: It's not... Jennifer: Yeah. Marcus: There's
nothing there. But, it seems to me that
before you even get to the Catholic
and orthodox thing... And maybe we'll take
a break now before, is this issue of
creator/creature? Jennifer: Yes. Yes. Marcus: I mean,
that's a big deal. Jennifer: Yes. Marcus: It's not just God, but, all of sudden there's
a connected creator/creature. Jennifer: Yes. Marcus: And to me,
that had to predate whether you were
orthodox or Catholic or not. Jennifer: Yeah. Marcus: In your thinking. Jennifer: Yeah. So, that's a really
interesting way of framing it. I mean, I think that at this point in
my intellectual development, I wasn't as impressed by that
as I should have been. That was something that I came
to be impressed with later on when I had more time to very
seriously study Aquinas, in particular. Marcus: Yeah. Jennifer: Right? So, I agree
with that now. I'm not sure looking back
at my 18-year-old self that that's the way that
I was thinking about it. Marcus: Okay. Jennifer: Yeah. Marcus: Because, I was...
The reason I thought about that was when you think about
the Patristic and Augustine and all that, that issue of even
Irenaeus, you know, creator and creature was
such a big issue for, for their making that
transition from the Greek philosophies
into Christianity. Jennifer: Yes. Marcus: It seemed that
that was such a big issue. So, you were encountering that
the whole time. Jennifer: Yes. So, that is a
huge difference. I think for me at the time,
I was trying to figure out how you could rationally assent
to the Trinity. Marcus: Okay. Jennifer: And the reason
I went back to them is, they were the ones figuring
this out in the beginning, you know. And so, that's the lens
through which I was reading it. Marcus: Okay. Jennifer: Yeah. Marcus: Because, you're
struck with that number one foundational
mystery is the trinity. Jennifer: I was. And I think part of that
is because I was... I had a lot of Jewish friends, a lot of Jewish intellectual
friends who were like, "You know that Trinity stuff? It doesn't work." And so, I had to take that
seriously. Right? Does it work? Marcus: Well, yeah. There's one God.
And Jesus is God. Jennifer: Right. Marcus: How do I put
those two together? Jennifer: That's right. Marcus: How do you put
those two together? Jennifer: Yeah. Marcus: All right.
Let's pause there. Jennifer: Okay. Marcus: Okay. And we'll come
back in a moment. And I do want to
remind the audience, if you go to <u>chnetwork.org </u>,
that's the website for the Coming Home Network
International, not only will you find more
stories like Doctor Frey's. But, you will find information
about our online community. If you happen to
be on the journey and want to
connect with somebody. If you're an atheist, wondering
who are these crazy people believing that there's
a Creator up there? Well, you can get connected with
other people on the journey. That's <u>chnetwork.org</u>. See ya in a bit. [music] [music] Marcus: Welcome back to
'The Journey Home.' I'm your host,
Marcus Grodi. And our guest is
Doctor Jennifer Frey. I've rudely interrupt her in
the middle of your journey. But, during the break, you mentioned a couple of things that had also been important
during this time that you thought
would be good to bring up. Jennifer: Yeah. So, I haven't talked about
the Bible... Marcus: Right. Right. Jennifer: ...at all. Marcus: It's so much. Right? Jennifer: It's all been
theology and philosophy, which makes sense, because,
that's where I started. But, eventually, as I was
taking Christianity, which is Orthodox Christianity
in 'The Big O sense,' you know, I was like,
"Obviously, I need to go back and really read the Bible
with fresh eyes." I had read bits of
the Bible in high school. Marcus: Your philosophy
professor, who was an Orthodox Jew hadn't
encouraged you to at least look in the Old Testament then? Jennifer: No. Marcus: No. Okay. Jennifer: No. No. Honestly, my original
interest in the Bible came from my interest in art
and literature. So, I realized in high school
that biblical ignorance and aesthetic appreciation of
the Western tradition were not compatible. And actually, the person that
made me realize this the most was James Baldwin. You just cannot appreciate
James Baldwin as a writer unless you know the Bible, because, it's so
biblically infused. And I loved him
as a writer. I just thought
he was incredible. And so, I had kind of started to read the Bible
a little bit in high school, but not in a serious way, and certainly not in the way
that I began to read it in college. And at any rate,
you know, Reading the Bible kind of
brought home to me, one, my attraction to Christ
and the teachings of Christ, but also, that reading the Bible
poses a really stark question, you know, is Christ
Who He says He is? Because, if He's not, I think it's pretty difficult
to admire Him. If He's not Who He says He is, then, He looks like
a crazy cult leader and a liar and someone who is
manipulating people in pretty problematic ways. Marcus: Yeah. If anybody says, 'I want
you to drop everything, give everything away
and follow Me.' Jennifer: Yeah. He also says,
He's the Son of God... Marcus: Yeah. Jennifer: ...the Son of Man. He says all of
this stuff that if He's not
Who He says He is, He's a megalomaniacal
crazy person. Marcus: Yeah. Jennifer: And so,
I realized that my attraction to Christ
was to Christ. Right? That it had... I mean,
if He's not the Messiah, then, this attraction,
there's something really... Marcus: Yeah. Jennifer: ...something
really weird about it. So, that, you know, that obviously had
a huge impact for me. And so, I started to... I went to talk to the
local Catholic priest. So, I'm in
Southern Indiana. So, I'm in Indiana University,
in Bloomington, Indiana. There are really not very
many Catholics there... Marcus: Well,
at this point, now, one other question now,
before we get... Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah. Marcus: ...is... Okay. You've decided
not Protestantism. You said that earlier. And you've accepted
the reality of, okay. And then, you liked
this Christ figure. Jennifer: Yeah. Marcus: Have you had any
connection with Them yet? Jennifer: Have I prayed? Marcus: Have you prayed? Jennifer: No. No. I mean, here's the thing
that I think is difficult for people to understand is, when you grow up
the way that I... So, prayer is a habit. Right? It's a habit of mind
and heart and feeling. And I did not
have this habit. Right? And for me, praying
was like weird. And it felt really
inauthentic. And so, that was a huge... One, I didn't know how
to pray. Right? I mean, and any attempt
that I made, it just felt silly. So, anyway, so, I went
to talk to this Catholic priest. And he did not know
what to do with me. You know, he just was like... I mean, I was just like,
"Oh, and Augustine and Irenaeus and Aquinas." And he's just like... And so, finally, he's like,
"Have you been to Mass?" And I'm like, "No." And he's like,
"I think you should go." He's like, I think you should
actually like go to a Mass. And he's like, "Because,
that's our form, our principle form of prayer. And I just think you
should see that." He's like, "You should not
take Communion." And I'm like,
"Well, I know that." And he's like, "Okay." So, I went to Mass, you know. And it was an interesting
experience, because, on the one hand, I was
incredibly drawn to the Mass, because, I understood
intellectually what was happening. But, on the other hand,
I was like kind of repulsed, because, I thought nobody here
seems to believe any of this, because, look at
how they're acting, like, look at like, this is all
just meaningless to them, because, nobody was reverent. Nobody seemed to care. You know, the confession
in this church was like converted to a coat closet. Like, it was just clear that,
you know, there was
a big disconnect between the teaching and the practice. Also, the Church was like
incredibly ugly, I mean, just so ugly. Marcus: Was this one of
these newer churches? Jennifer: Oh yeah. Marcus: Yeah. Okay. Jennifer: Yeah. Marcus: All right. Okay. Jennifer: And the
music was ugly. It just... I was kind of like, huh. You know, this isn't
like a gothic Cathedral. I don't have this
sense of transcendence, you know. Like, I know intellectually
what's supposed to be happening. But, it doesn't really seem to
fit the reality of any of it. And so, it was... Marcus: You seem to think
of why in your journey, that's the one that God
brought you to first. You know what I mean. Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. And, yeah. He did not bring me to
Notre Dame in Paris. He brought me to this
little ugly church. And I mean, it's interesting to
think back about that, because, you know, the other big obstacle for me
in becoming Catholic. I mean, there were
so many obstacles. One is, I knew it was going to
be a huge problem for my family. And it was. But two, it was so uncool. Like, it was so uncool. It was the most dramatically
uncool thing that I could possibly do, especially amongst
my circle of friends, you know,
who are intellectuals. You know, it's like,
what are you doing? And I couldn't like
take them into the church and be like,
'But see how beautiful it is,' because, it wasn't. I couldn't take them to
the Mass and be like, see? Isn't this transcendent? Because, it wasn't really. And so, it was a huge
stumbling block for me. And I still wasn't
praying, like I said. But then, I finally
got around to reading Augustine's
'Confessions.' And that book... I mean, basically,
when I put that book down, I knew that
I had to get baptized. But also, in the middle
of that book, I, you know, prayed for the first
time in my life. It was like weird and sublime
at the same time. I don't really know
how to describe it. But, I felt called. I felt called
to be baptized. And I had never had
that feeling before. I wasn't terrifically
excited about it, to be honest. I was very
ambivalent about it. But, I knew that when something
like that happens to you, you can't just ignore it. And so, I did get baptized,
about a year later. I went through RCIA, which
was very difficult for me, because, I knew way more
than the people teaching RCIA. And that created some tensions, because, they would
say something. And I would be like,
"That's not true." Marcus: You mean,
in terms of even you had
come to know theology. Jennifer: Oh yeah. Marcus: Yeah. Okay. Jennifer: Well,
the RCIA program, it was so watered down. Marcus: Yeah. Jennifer: And I was
looking for something robust. I mean, I was like, if I'm
going to change my life, it's not going be for
some water down, you know, but...blech,
this weak sauce, watered down,
everything's fine. I'm like,
"Everything's not fine. That's why I'm here,"
you know. And so, RCIA was
a stumbling block for me. But, I was committed, you know. I had had this experience. I was committed. I got through it. And I was baptized. But, you know, my conversion
story wasn't sort of like, oh. There was this one moment and all the scales fell
from my eyes. And, you know, now I'm
a zealot or something. I mean, one of the things that I really appreciated about
Saint Augustine is that he gives you a way of
thinking about conversion as an ongoing drama
throughout your life. Because, at every moment
in your life, you're either conversio,
you're either turned towards God or you are turned away from Him. And so, I knew that
to start that, like I had to get baptized. I was never baptized. And by that point, I knew that I wanted to be
baptized a Roman Catholic, that I didn't want to be
Orthodox. Marcus: So, you had made
that decision previously. Jennifer: I did. I had made that decision through
studying a lot of theology. But also, meeting with,
going to an Orthodox service and meeting orthodox people. You know, the ways that they tried to sell orthodox
Christianity on me were the things that pushed me
into Catholicism. One, it's... You know, you have to pick
a national church. I don't like the idea
of national churches. I think Christianity
really is Catholic. It's universal. But also, there is a kind of
anti-intellectual strand within orthodox
theology, you know. So, one of the things that
they'll tell you about the West is that it's too
rationalistic and that Saint Augustine had the
wrong view about original sin. And I was just like,
I love Saint Augustine. And I'm a philosopher. This is not
drawing me in at all. But also, I knew that we had
Catholic heritage. You know, I'm part Italian. Marcus: Right. Jennifer: And I knew the Church where everyone in my family
had been baptized, going back just a few
generations. And so, there was a, you know,
a family thing as well. So... Yeah. So, I was baptized Catholic. But, I think for me,
that was really like just the beginning of something,
you know, that I only vaguely understood
at the time, but felt called to do
in a really strong way. Marcus: I almost feel,
looking back, that the reason the Lord
may have had your first experience of Mass
be in this not quite so appealing
environment... Jennifer: Yeah. Marcus: ... so that that
wasn't a distraction. Jennifer: Yeah. Marcus: You know, the... If it had maybe been the
most beautiful... That that might have been
a distraction from you cutting through that to say,
oh, wait a second. What is this
really all about? Jennifer: Yeah, I mean. I think that's pretty
insightful, because, I, you know, I've been Catholic almost all of
my adult life at this point. I've been Catholic longer than
I've been not Catholic at this point. And, of course,
I know a lot of converts who have lost the faith. And a lot of those converts
who have lost the faith were... They became Catholic in this
incredible Catholic environment. Right? Marcus: Yeah. Jennifer: And all of their
friendships and their intellectual life,
like, it was all... It all made sense. And then, at some point,
they moved away from that for whatever reason. And they lost the faith. For me, it was the
exact opposite. You know, I was like
really on my own. Just really trying to figure out
if I was going to do this. And I was like,
if I'm going to do this, like, I'm going to do this. Marcus: Yeah. Jennifer: You know? Marcus: Yeah. Jennifer: And there
were a ton of obstacles. But again, at the end of
the day, I felt called. And here I am
and I'm still Catholic. Marcus: It's interesting
you've said it the way you did, because, yeah. There were a lot of... We think about the years
of 'The Journey Home.' It's been around 20... We've been doing this program
for 24 years, been working at
'the Coming Home Network' now for going on 29 years. The Church has changed
a lot in 24-29 years. Jennifer: Yeah. Marcus: I mean, I don't mean
the Church has changed. But, at least our Catholic
environment has changed and so much has changed. And I'm thinking a lot of
the converts that I knew, 80s and 90s,
during a John Paul II Church, that has changed. And a lot of those are the ones
that have backed away. Jennifer: Right. Marcus: And maybe they
hung their hat on... Jennifer: Right. Marcus: ...on the
wrong thing. Jennifer: Yeah. They did. Marcus: And you
didn't have a chance. The Lord said... Jennifer: Yeah. Marcus: Start you
from rock bottom. Jennifer: That's right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. In a way, I'm grateful
for the, you know, to be forged in
a particular crucible. Marcus: Something else
that struck me as a parallel, is you talked
about that philosopher, that you really admired... You knew him first
as a philosopher... Jennifer: Yes. Marcus: And then,
you realized, whoa. He believes in God. Jennifer: Yeah. Marcus: That was your
experience with Augustine. Jennifer: Yeah. Marcus: I mean,
in other words, it wasn't "
The Confessions" first. Jennifer: Right. Marcus: Then,
the philosophy. It was him as
a philosopher first. Jennifer: That's right. Marcus: And then,
he believes in God. Jennifer: Yeah. Marcus: I mean, that's
interesting the way... That's the way the Lord
seems to have worked with you a lot of the time. Jennifer: Yeah, yeah. I mean, Augustine is
incredibly close to my heart, because, you know,
when I first studied Augustine, it was really just in
a philosophical context. But, when you read
'The Confessions,' it's the journey of a soul. I mean, it's such a... I mean, Augustine just really
put his humanity out there in such a deep way. And that's why, I mean,
to this day, it's hard for me to find someone
who does not like that book if they've actually read it, because, he puts his humanity
on the page. And that was
so attractive to me, because, I read Augustine
and I was like, that's me. In some really deep sense
that's me, you know. And his struggles
are my struggles, you know. And the only question is
whether or not his solution... Marcus: Is... Jennifer: ...is mine,
is the solution. Right? And so, I think it's
so interesting that it was really in
reading that text that I felt called
to be baptized. And, of course, I had read tons of
philosophy and theology and not felt that way at all. I felt curious. I felt drawn in. But, it was... You know, it's just
something about that book. Marcus: You can't turn
on the evening news, if you're unfortunate
to do that, to turn on the evening news and see what's happening
in our world. And one might argue that
what's going on in our culture and in our world
is a post-Christian time. But, I'm wondering if it's
a post-philosophy time too. Jennifer: Oh, well,
I think it is. Yeah. Marcus: Talk about the
importance of a good philosophy. Jennifer: I mean, yeah. Philosophy has definitely
fallen on hard times, because, even in the academy,
it's not valued anymore. And there are so many,
so many reasons for that. Part of it is that we are no longer invested in
liberal education, real liberal education. Marcus: Right. Jennifer: We have entered
a period where, of this kind of
self-righteous certainty that is resistant to
liberal education and liberal learning. And that I think is
very toxic, because, both sides operate from a position of
self-righteous certainty. Marcus: Yeah. Jennifer: And unfortunately, you will find it in
our universities... Marcus: Yeah. Jennifer: ...that, you know, there's only one way to think
about a range of issues that are so personal and so vast
and so complicated that really are the issues that are
the stuff of philosophy, you know, what is race? What is racism? What is sex? What is gender? What is marriage? What is...? You know,
what is good government? You know, increasingly,
you're just not allowed to explore various aspects of this. And, of course, that's the
death of philosophy, because, philosophy is rooted in
the natural desire to know and understand things. And it pre-supposes that you're allowed to ask
difficult questions. It is completely against
the idea that this is the way to think. I mean, read Plato,
read Socrates. That's not how it works. Now, philosophy is
oriented towards truth. Right? Well, it's oriented
towards wisdom. Right? But, how do you get there? The starting point is humility,
not self-righteous certainty. So, I feel culturally,
we've lost that, if we ever really had it
in the United States. But, we've definitely
lost it now. And that's a huge problem, because, philosophy
changed my life. Right? I entered philosophy from
a position of supposed certainty and I very quickly realized I don't understand much at all,
it turns out. And that's the position
that philosophy puts you into relatively quickly,
if you're doing it correctly. You realize
like, oh my gosh. I don't know. And so, if you operate
from that space of humility, it's actually very good
and it's not... I think a lot of Christians
think wrongly that that's opposed
to the faith. And that's because they have
the incorrect understanding of the relationship
between faith and reason. And the Church,
the Catholic Church, I think has the right
understanding of that. Marcus: It seemed to me, as I look back on
my own journey that, and I don't mean this in
any negative sense towards our separated brethren. But, it seemed to me that
from the Catholic perspective versus
a Protestant perspective, the Catholic perspective
is not be afraid of the search for truth. Jennifer: That's right. To embrace it, because... Marcus: Yeah. Jennifer: ... that
natural desire for knowledge, its perfection is in
the beatific vision. Right? So, of course, we must
cultivate that through study. And so, it's not
surprising that the university is a product
of medieval Catholicism. Which it is. Marcus: Yeah. But, the modern universities have lost track of
their heritage. Jennifer: Well, I mean, they've pretty explicitly
rejected it. Marcus: Yeah. Jennifer: Yeah. I wouldn't even say
they've lost track. Marcus: All right.
We have an email. Let's see if we can take,
get this in. Allison from Missouri
writes, That was King James verses. Jennifer: Yeah. That's a great question.
So, thank you. I mean, I think we just look at
the history of the Church. Right? I mean, if you look at
the history of the Western tradition, right, we have two streams that
start to form a single river. So, you have the Socratic
tradition of Athens and you have the prophetic
biblical tradition. Right? And they converge, right, at a very particular point
early on. And Christian theology was always born out of
the interaction. So, we talked about
on the break, Saint Justin Martyr. Marcus: Yeah. Jennifer: I mean, is one of
the earliest Patristics. Right? I mean, he's talking to
the emperor about Plato and about how Platonism
and Christianity are compatible. So, it was always there
from the beginning in our tradition. And I think that,
you know, there is a difference between
good and bad philosophy, just as much as there is
a difference between good and bad theology. And I think that there are
bad ways of doing philosophy and approaching philosophy that you might find in a university. I'm not going to lie. That would be
deleterious to the faith. But, there is good philosophy and good ways of doing
philosophy that are grounded in
the classical text of philosophy that are quite helpful
because they force you... Or rather, they encourage you,
I would say, to think about ultimate questions of
metaphysics and value. And if you understand the
relationship between faith and reason properly, then, you will know that nothing
reason teaches you will be contradicted
by your faith. Right? Faith is a higher kind of
revealed knowledge. Right? It's God revealing
Himself to us. But, what we can know
through reason, right, isn't going to
contradict that. And so, if you run into problems
at the level of reason, right, you know that you need to work
through those in light of your faith. And of course, they're exemplars
of doing this. You know, the long tradition of
Catholic philosophers, presents us an exemplar, right,
to imitate and to look to, right, for how to have an
integrated life of faith and reason. But, it's incredibly
important for your faith, because, we live in
a culture that not only can you not
take for granted, right, what Christianity teaches. But, we live in a culture that
is absolutely opposed to it. And so, if you cannot argue
with people on the level of
philosophy and reason, you've got nowhere to go. Because, they do not see
the Bible as a source of knowledge. So, if all you can do is
quote the Bible, game is over. Marcus: Yeah. It seems that that was one
of the desires of Justin Martyr in the early
Patristic is that, here, you have this
Jewish tradition, bringing with them a Bible. Jennifer: That's right.
That's right. Marcus: And then,
the Gentiles are saying, "Well, what do we have? Did God never
speak us at all?" And then, for them saying,
"Wait a second..." Jennifer: They have the Sages. Marcus: "We do have a heritage. We do have a heritage." And so, that's why, you know,
looking at Aristotle and Plato. But then, at some point, you realize,
well, does that mean we just accept everything
they pass along or do we have to sift
through that to see...? Jennifer: Right. Marcus: ... see what
the baggage was. Jennifer: Right. Marcus: And so, that was
Augustine and Aquinas... Jennifer: Well, of course... Marcus: ...sifting
through that. Jennifer: And the
pagans have religion. They do have religion. Marcus: Yeah. Yeah. Jennifer: Yeah. And their religion also
centrally involves the concept of sacrifice. Marcus: We've got a
minute left, Doctor Frey. We didn't have a lot... Talk a bit, really quickly
about your website. Is somebody connected
on your YouTube channel. Jennifer: Yeah. So, I don't have
a YouTube channel. Sorry to disappoint. Marcus: That's all right. Jennifer: I have a podcast... Marcus: Podcast. Jennifer: ...called
'Sacred And Profane Love.' It's a philosophy, theology
and literature podcasts. Sort of the conceit is that part of what it means
to live well is to read well and study well. So, we have conversations
on my podcast that try to model intellectual
friendship, intellectual joy. Right? The life of the mind,
for anyone. So, if you want to join
in with that conversation, you can download the podcast anywhere you would
download any podcast. It's on all the platforms. [music] But, it's hosted at<u>
Thevirtueblog.com</u>, which was a blog
that predated the podcast, but then, just sort of
absorbed it. So, yeah. Marcus: All right,
Doctor Jennifer. Thank you very much... Jennifer: Yeah. Absolutely. Marcus: ...for joining
us on the program. Jennifer: Thanks
for having me. Marcus: And all of you,
thank you once again for joining us on
'The Journey Home.' I do pray that Doctor Frey's
journey is an encouragement to you. God bless you. See you next week. [music]
