John Gacy Survivor interview-Tony

all right Tony uh where are you from urgent where'd you grow up I grew up in Aurora Kentucky which is in the western part of the state near the uh Tennessee River on Kentucky Lake tell me about uh your childhood growing up well um single um only child my father was an only child my mother had seven brothers and sisters we were just the average family my father went to the Korean war came back opened up a Ashland gas station he had other opportunities in Texas he was a good salesman and a good organizer but he landed in right on the river there Tennessee River my mother was a waitress at the state park we were the closest home to the state park and the state park was my playground so the nearest Home was probably a mile from ours but I had the playground sounds like a idyllic childhood it was a lot of fun I wish my children could go up grow up like that but you you had a run-in with somebody an Infamous I did in 1970 at the state park it was kin Lake State Park I had a run-in with uh John Wayne Gacy and well actually I ran into him three years later too but the first time you met him was you were hold I was about a month or a couple weeks from being 15. hmm what happened um it was a typical Hot August Night I was at the state park and I'd been playing with some of the tourist kids I'd ridden my bike across the golf course over to the park property I was sitting in the lobby he walks up to me and he said uh are you a local I said yes he said what's her to do around here and he's dressed in a leisure suit a black and brown leisure suit I was in Orange swim trunks with a towel around my neck a city like fishing you like boating it's a resort it's outdoor Paradise hunting he said no and then he I started to get up he said what's there to do around here and I said are you into hiking or sailing or camping and he said no and then I started asking him questions I said um where are you from he said I'm from Chicago I'm visiting some people down here and I said where he said Jonathan Creek well I knew that was about four hours by water four hours by land so I started to get up again and he asked me the question again so I went ahead and stood up and I was starting to get annoyed and uh I said are you looking for liquor or are you looking for for women I said this is kind of a family style Resort and as I started to walk off he said hey would you like to have a beer with me and I said sure so we walked down to his room it was the sixth room on the left I knew most of the workers at the state park but there was a new desk clerk named Ella working that night and she we had seen each other I had the keys to the uh to some of the rooms where I could get a fresh towel if I needed it since my mother worked there I was a fixture really on the property so we go down to his room he opens the door Jose old-fashioned keys back then I walk in I'll take a couple steps he walks in behind me and he he takes his hand and he grazes my behind my butt and I thought that was a little weird um I thought maybe that was a mistake I look to the right which was a typical hotel room and the bathtub was completely filled up filled to the top with ice and uh there's two chairs two beds the TV was in between the chairs I took a seat at the first chair and then he goes to a cooler and brings back a beer it was a wiedemann and a red white and black can he hands me the beer and then he goes over and shuts the curtains and we were on the first floor and my bike was parked just right outside the window probably 30 40 feet away and he's closed the curtains he walks past me this would have been the picture glass window here this would have been the restroom as he goes past me he starts talking to me just asking me questions and you know what I did what my parents did and things like that and he locks the door and now I'm starting to feel well that's a little weird too because initially I thought we was going to have kind of a man-to-man conversation I'd been around my dad's my dad had a sawdust clandestine gambling joint behind a gas station and he'd let me hang out with all the men in there he'd also uh I had when I was 13. I got on my dad about not being able to mow yards because we didn't have any neighbors and he said I'll take you down to the lake where all the gods come in let you clean fish so he told me to go in and start talking to the guides about cleaning fish and my pitch to them was while you're getting your gas your boat gassed up for tomorrow and your bait everything ready for tomorrow I can take care of this for you and that was kind of my little side hustle when I was 13. but anyway back to uh he uh he seemed to start getting agitated so I was drinking my beer on this next trip through he asked me if I like sex books and in my mind I was thinking Playboy and I'd only seen Playboy a few times on the back of the bus with one of my friends uh he would take the Playboy from his older brother and all of us would gather around on the back of a school bus in a rural road where we were all bumping heads trying to see the centerfold and so he takes the suitcase out sets it on the bed opens it up it's full of books there's probably a magazine there's probably 50 or 60 magazines there um I reach over start Fanning through them and I didn't see anything that I thought I would like so he grabs a couple and just hands them to me I set back and I start thumbing through them they're all boys so at this time when I'm going through the uh the magazines he's back in the restroom he's I hear the faucet come on and off next time he comes out he's got a towel wrapped around his neck and uh at the that time when he came out he locks the deadbolts on the door so now things start to slow motion kicks in on me I think this is not right something's wrong I'm I'm in a bad situation here so I got the same feeling about a year before me and a fellow that was a friend of mine tried to swim across Kentucky Lake which was almost a while a mile wide we got halfway across and he starts to panic I said you got to roll over and start swimming on your back until we can get some help and I started looking for a buoy someplace for us to find something to float luckily in a few minutes the border patrol or the Lake Patrol came through and we were able to get out of there but I had the same feeling I was starting to panic a little bit he comes back through and I said hey there's there's just Boys in these books and he says I got something else you might like so he goes to the other side of the bed puts another suitcase up on the bed opens it up it's full of shackles and handcuffs and chains and inside my mind I'm thinking this is this is bad I got to get out of here so I take my beer it was about half full I set it down to my left heel and I said the next time he goes to the bathroom I'm going to take this cooler and I'm either going to throw it through the window or I'm going to move it where I can get away so he goes in the bathroom again and his uh demeanor his his eyes start to get a little squinty um he was changing he was he was looking at me when he was sneering at me when he would walk by and I'm pretty big kid for 15 but I I knew I didn't have enough this was a powerful powerfully built man and so as soon as he goes in the bathroom and the faucet comes on I grab the cooler I take it over into the far corner right by the window and when he comes back out after he had mentioned the the chains and the shackles and all that stuff I said do you have any snacks and while he's looking at me I kicked my beer over and he's he act kind of uh disoriented for a second he said no I don't have any snacks and I said can I have another beer so he looks where the cooler was he didn't see the cooler and he goes starts looking for the cooler well he goes he walks past me and around both beds and I hit the door and I'm hitting them unlock them unlocking the chain I'm unlocking the deadbolt and I opened the door and just as I step out he grabs me and he hit he he grabs at me he hits me a couple of times but I just kept back pedaling because I didn't have on a shirt for him to grab I didn't have any shoes so I back on out of there walked past the desk clerk Ella and I get get on my bike and I'm a little shaken but I didn't know who he was I just figured if some weird weird guy um but I'd been around enough men with my father's um backroom gambling stat establishment that I knew that was that was not normal so I'll get home I go across the golf course the dudes flying up off my bike hit me it was wet um I had to cross the road and go up a hill we lived up on a hill I had a German Shepherd named Vaughn and Vine started to bark like I was a stranger until I got about halfway up the hill then he he knew it was me so he started whimpering my mom opens the door she says where you been I was getting ready to come looking for you I said mom you're not going to believe what happened to me and so I told her the whole story my mom smoked about three cigarettes a day but she backed up against the kitchen counter and lit a cigarette and I could tell she was real concerned and I said this weird guy tried to trap me in his room At first she was just taking it in but then she got more nervous and more nervous she worked there she worked at the state park but she and she was a desk clerk too now she started as a waitress when she was young uh Associates of law talked to your dad about it when he gets home and we knew it'd be midnight before he got home that's when all the gambling stopped he ran the gambling from one in the morning or from one in the afternoon to midnight one in the morning so fast forward three years we still live by the park that's still my playground I'm working at the marina now and I was taking on a lot of responsibilities at the marina I was in charge of the houseboat rentals and other things I worked with a big Samoan guy he was 6'4 his name was Pete so me and Peter sitting out by the gas docks at the marina and I went in the five in the morning to one in the afternoon shift and I thought well I'm going to check the wind see if how calm the lake is I'm going to walk to the front of the marina and see if it's black capping or if we can go water skiing when I get off so I walked to the front of the marinas turn the corner and I bump into a guy and for my first reaction was I said excuse me I step aside he steps aside and it was healed now I'm almost 18 now and I said Hey do you remember me and he said no I don't remember you and I said you're from Chicago I said you remember me and he said no I don't well I was kind of full of piss and vinegar at that age so I kind of went chest to chest with him I said yes you do I'm not 14 anymore oh I was almost 15. and by that time my boss walks out Mr Wilhelm and he says everything okay so we went our separate ways uh then I guess it's 78 December 78 um I'm older now I'm driving a lot of the kids I went to school high school and college with and in that part of the country had moved to Nashville I'd been in Nashville partying we had closed down some bars and Printers Alley which was a big section of Nashville Tennessee I was hungover I was hungry it was December 23rd I believe I was so I started home I went by Rivergate Mall I was going to get a present for my mom and dad and I ended up getting them one of those boxes of cheese and salami and all that stuff so I walked to have it wrapped there was a bunch of ladies on a horseshoe horseshoe tables out in the intersection of the mall wrapping gifts I set the get the gift up on the table and I sat down and I looked behind them I see this row of newspapers and I don't know if it was my brain kicked in before my eyes kicked in but I as I'm staring at these newspapers I couldn't really see the headlines but I could see this guy's face and I started getting cold chills so I got up walked over there and every step I was saying to myself that's the guy that's the guy that tried to trap me in the in the hotel room that's the guy I ran into at the marina four years later so I get home and I was telling my I didn't live at home then but I stopped by the house to tell my mom the story she said well I'm going to call this Chicago Police Department I said don't do that Mom I said you know what's the usage what she did it anyway so she called the Chicago Police Department she didn't know that the Chicago Police Department didn't have the um they didn't really have the case they had no jurisdiction it was the Cook County Sheriff who had the jurisdiction and this police officer said he kind of blew my mom off he said ma'am do you think we really need someone's help a ladies helping Kentucky when we got all these bodies under this guy's house so she said well I just wanted you to make a report so he took her name took my name put the date on it and uh we kind of forgot about it then in I guess 96 or 97 a detective from the Cook County Sheriff call me he wanted me to tell him the story so I did he would just ask me questions but he wouldn't really give me any feedback so I've told him the story then 2007 a reporter from the Chicago Tribune called me and he had a lot of knowledge he had more knowledge of course he had the he had the benefit of being after the effect after the fact but he said I want to talk to you about this encounter so we talked about it we talked for 45 minutes and he said he believed and I do too now that Casey cruised the Dells of Wisconsin Lake Geneva Lake of the Ozarks and Kentucky Lake and he said they have a lot of what they call drownings but he don't believe there were drownings he believed these young men were killed so we kind of parted you know he said he'd get back in touch with me and he asked me if I wanted to talk to him again to call him I never did this never really bothered me it still don't bother me but until I got to be 50 55 years old then I started thinking about it and I I probably told 20 people about it and I was relaying it to my son and he said well you should write it down so I did I wrote it down I think the reason though that I got away from this guy was because my mom and dad just let me I had unlimited freedom and a lot of fathers in a back room wasn't hardly as big as this room but when you got gambling and poker and dice and drinking and um I was five or six years old and my dad would let me walk around in there not to hear guys cussing and not hear every you know you hear everything my dad never covered my ears um and this place was like the lake at that time was a boom town because Interstate 24 hadn't come in so everyone traveling north to south would pass through where my dad had his business and there was plus there was an airport behind it and my dad when he got home from the Korean War he wanted to have fun my grandmother said he's going to dedicate the rest of his life to having fun because his ship was shot a couple times one song Harbor me and around him died he told my grandmother he was going to work but he was going to have fun he turned down a couple of jobs in Houston with oil companies and that's that's really the reason he leaned towards uh I think opening up a Ashland oil gas station so my dad had a couple of mechanics that really ran the gas station he worked in the back room they're named for scroggs and jamer they were Kentucky boys country boys could fix anything can make anything I'm five or six years old I'm hanging out in the gas station and I for a couple of months I'd been asking him to make me a go-kart or make me a mini bike well they did they made me a mini bike and this was this was near a place called Golden Pond in the Treasury and revenue agents named it the Golden Pond because every time the whiskey Stills would get crushed by the by the feds they said the whiskey would roll down the mountains and form a Golden Pond so that's how it got its name I'm behind the gas station I'm across the airport riding this mini bike and I start up a trail and I'd seen these guys come and go at the gas station and I knew because a big part of my dad's business was putting bladders in these cars putting extra shocks on these cars he didn't do it but the guys working for him did because they were hauling whiskey to Evansville to Cincinnati to to Nashville and there was a couple of guys that kind of stood out as as haulers they'd make sure their cars was clean because they didn't want to look like they were coming from back roads so there was one one guy in particular his name was scooper and he was kind of a James Dean looking character he so I'm riding my mini bike I go up this mountain on this Trail they had a lot of power too it was a custom-made bike a deer jumps out in front of me and I I kind of crashed this kind of went over as it went over there was a man I could hear these men arguing and they were arguing in a whiskey still and so I looked at him and I thought oh that's just guys making whiskey and here I'm six years old but I know what's going on I go back to my mini bike and then I hear a fight break out between these guys and I hear a guy let out a whale and I thought I recognized one of the guys as one of those one of the drivers that used to drive the whiskey and I didn't know what had happened to the guy so I I get back to the station I didn't mention it to my dad just another another incident of men gathered doing something a few days later my dad tells me this guy died and they had stabbed him in the femoral artery and so I told my dad about it at dinner and he said well we're not going to mention that anymore and so we never talked about it much but um again everyone thinks that they grow up in a regular family and I did too because you know I had friends and but some of the church ladies would they they wouldn't look Us in the eye Mark I feel like I'm doing all talking no you're doing great you're doing great what kind of work have you done in your life well I've always had a a work ethic so I started working when I was 13. I was working at the marina I was I was kind of hanging around at the marina went to college got a couple of degrees I actually worked for Tennessee Valley Authority when I first got out of college I was kind of wild I wasn't mean but I was wild a lot of drinking a lot of parties fell into pills when I was young never got into coke or heroin or anything like that but to support my habit and I bought a used sailboat my grandfather was a painter in Miami I sailed around Kentucky like a couple seasons and then I needed some work on my boat so I towed it down to Miami left it with my grandfather some of the people in the area where he lived in Miami they were mostly Blue Collar Working Families he was a painter but he he was really a drinker he'd paint about three days a week and drink the other four I got to know some of the boys around there they seen my boat in his backyard when he got it finished he said he called me he said some of these guys want to test your boat I said fine let them you know I kind of grew up with them when I was down there visiting him um in about a year I'd call and say it's my boat okay and say yeah they brought it back and then for then they quit bringing it back so so I went down to investigate these guys were bringing um bales of marijuana into the country they go out every night bring it back in some of them ended up getting in trouble a boat got confiscated I got my boat back and then I got contacted by some guys some Colombian guys that wanted me to take over their role going out six to eight miles meeting them bringing bringing marijuana in so probably brought in seven or eight tons of marijuana uh gotten got arrested for it beat the charge down there and then they picked it up in Western Kentucky and charged me with this distribution I played out went to the federal prison for a little while from 86 to 89 . since since I went to they rate you when you go into federal prison you're either a one which is a low level White Collar criminal or you're a six which is the worst to the worst when you're in the federal prison I was a one I started out in camps I started out in Lexington went to Terre Haute went to Duluth and went back to Marion Illinois which was right across the street from the only level six that replaced Alcatraz so I was a model prisoner stayed busy played tennis played them back the prison basketball team one day my counselor comes said I want you to go home you've been good I want you to go home for five days I said okay so I thought it was a chance to spend some time with my children I go home and when I get home I become Afflicted with pneumonia so I went to my family doctor one of the rules when you leave federal prison on a furlough you're not supposed to take any medicine so I called the prison I said I've got pneumonia they give me three medications they said bring them in with you so when you're in the federal at that time when you're in the federal prison system your counselors the correctional officers would say things like if you mess up your boy we'll send you on up the ladder and you'll end up in in Marion Illinois in the new Alcatraz and nobody paid much attempts they were just kind of kidding with you so I come back in after my furlough I set my three bottles of medicine up there they said take him across the street and lock him up even though I got permission to bring them in I was antibiotic one was Valium because they wanted my lungs to relax so they put me in the new Alcatraz in the level six Penitentiary on H unit which level one wasn't supposed to be in a level six so I only had a year to go so I spent the last 11 months basically in the in the toughest prison um but getting back when you first entered the prison these these guards and these counselors they say if you mess up we'll send you to the new Alcatraz and we'll put you on the reins with a guy named Sonny Burkett Sonny Burkett had been in the in the in the riots in New York and the prison rights of New York he was he had burned snitches with uh blow torches he uh he had 1800 years and he was on H unit in Marion Illinois so I'd been in there about two hours I'm laying on my cell and you don't even have bars the it's the place is so bad they take you to the dentist in a cage they'll put you in a cage like like you were a big cat or something they'll pull you to the dentist you had to go through 15 or 20 electronic doors to get back there to where the the sales were so all all these years these three years they'd say or two years they'd say you mess up here we'll send you to Marion Illinois and put you on the range with sunny Burkett Sonny had killed 16 inmates in the prison he'd been in the Attica riots and they'd they transfer the worst of the worst state prisoners to the divorce Federal Prison so I'm laying there on my cell it's all in my on my bed it's all concrete there's there's no way to to make a tool out of anything and there's no bars on the doors either it's just a window in the Halls are real wide because I guess for security purposes so all of a sudden this face pops up in my cell door and he said uh you're new aren't you I said yeah I just got here he said you know who I am I said no he said I'm Sonny Burkett you've heard of me haven't you and I said well I think I have heard of you sonny and it was like looking into the eyes of a Rottweiler he could be scared of me and I said well I don't have any reason to be scared of you I just got here he said you have any King which is an orange drink you mix up and I said I just got here I hadn't had time to go to commissary or put in an order for anything he said well when you get some King I'll trade you some coffee and as he's talking to me this guy pops up across the hall half his face is a spider web and I found out later this guy's name was hacksaw he escaped from all the other penitentiaries level fives the level fours and he had kind of gone crazy but he knew who Sonny was so he's shaking his head no all the time Sonny's talking to me so sending student Sonny leaves he goes hey he goes that guy will try to trick you into taking going to the law library he'll take it to the law library and kill you that's where he kills everyone and I said well I wasn't going to go to law library I'm about out of here I said what about you hacksaw he said well I got 10 more years he said but I'll get out of here I said this is escape proof you'll never get out of here it's a level six Penitentiary I said you can't get out of here he goes oh yeah I can he said they'll transfer me to another unit he said the last time I escaped I went to Mexico he went into a big story so sunny I'd been in there a few days and they brought my clothes over they I filled out a list for commissary where you can get oranges and apples he comes back we start trading items I received USA Today and a couple other newspapers um I was there reading one of my newspapers one day and the only time you really got out of your sale the place was so dangerous is if you go to the shower and back which is twice a week so I seen this Shadow walk by my door and then a new this Newsweek come flying under my cell door and it was Carlos later who had been one of the members of the first big cartels and Columbia it had a note on it it said I see you get a couple newspapers I get a couple magazines let's trade so we did so then he got to stop him by myself um but everybody in the new Alcatraz was long-termers I wasn't a long-termer most of them were violent I wasn't really about I'd been in a few brawls but I wasn't really violent um so I I was lucky to get out of there I thought finally my mother called the congressman so much to get me out of there that uh I think I was the last level one they were put in a level six got out in 89 started my life over moved from Western Kentucky to Lexington Kentucky just to be close to my children um a buddy came by from college went with him up to that point I was you get all the bad jobs washing dishes mopping floors even with a couple college degrees had a degree in accounting a degree in criminal justice but I still wouldn't wasn't getting any any work until I got an insurance license then I started making some money getting my life back together I had an insurance office above a grocery store in Lexington and Nick it was a a strip center but some offices were upstairs and there were some people that had the office next to me who had contracts to do carpet installation loads and Home Depot well they hired people all over the state I heard some guys in in the eastern part of the state they would come in weekly and work two or three days and go back one day they heard me talking about buying a truck I was in the mood in the market for a truck a used truck I was going to keep my automobile but I'm just looking for a truck these guys were from Floyd County Kentucky and then I'd seen them wave at them say hi whatever they said hey we heard you was looking for a truck and I said yeah I'm still looking for a truck they said we know God's got one for sale I said okay I said give me his phone number I said well they don't have a phone he lives over in Floyd County you'll probably have to come over there and check it out so they left a few days later the guy goes hey I'm going over to Floyd County you want to ride over with me and he showed me the picture of this truck again you see he wants four thousand dollars for it I said okay when I closed down the office we'll we'll go over there so I ride over to Floyd County Kentucky with this guy I'd worked all over the eastern part of the state and he says we got to go to my brother's first but I got to pick him up at Kmart so he stops and picks his brother up at Kmart and his brother comes out of Kmart with a large tent on his shoulder I've never seen his brother before but I said where's his where's his car he said I'll be they mumbles something he said we're going to go by his house first so her now this feeling I'd I'd had when I was 15 starting to kick in a little bit I barely know this guy he knows I got four thousand dollars in my pocket we picked up his brother who's got a Sleepy Eye and he's got a tent on his shoulder we get to his house I did need to go to the restroom so it's it's up a holler it's it's kind of um you know wooden frame house we walk in the front door and we're standing there I said where's the guy with the truck and they said oh we got to go we got to go over to his house well he motions to the guy to go out and get the tent out of that we were in a van we're in a Chevy van so I said well I'm going to go ahead and go to the restroom so I go to the restroom I get in this it's a small restroom and I thought these guys are going to kill me they're going to kill me for this four thousand dollars so I checked the window and it was hard to open and it was small but I finally got it open I took the shower curtain down and the door didn't really have a lock on it so I pressed it up against the doorknob put it against the tub it was starting to get dark I crawled out of this window I don't know exactly where I am but I know I'm going to get away from this house so I walked in the woods for probably an hour I'd really kind of lost my bearing so I would walk a while and I'd listen a while I thought maybe I could hear a car on a on a road I thought maybe I could hear a creek a river or anything finally I did start hearing a car so I walked to a convenience store I finally I was leery about getting out on the road and call someone to come pick me up so that was one of the experiences I had in Appalachia you had some some brushes with uh almost dying it seems well couple my I I think I got this from my father my father always rooted for the underdog but he he had a um he sort of sought out illicit Adventures I did too it was a thrill for me I still have a little of that in me I don't know if it's I'm not really a gambler but I think that replaced what some people would call gambling is it just the adrenaline I think so um but when I think back about those days I I almost seems like a different person doesn't really seem like something I would have done but I'm I was pretty wild we living in the country live in the rural areas we we had a there was a bridge across Kentucky lake called eggnospheric Bridge it's about 80 feet from the water and we started jumping off of it and then we started doing flips off of it and then a couple guys quit jumping off it then we started doing it night that was more of a thrill because you couldn't necessarily time it then some boys down in uh down in Southern Tennessee found out we were jumping off of it and they wanted to come up there and challenge us so I they wouldn't jump off at night but then it had these the top of the bridge was just the steel girders so then I climbed up the steel girders and jumped off and this boy from Tennessee said well if you'll do that I will he jumped off and broke his leg and then he sent some cousins up there like a couple weeks later and it got to be a contest but that's just adrenaline seeking adrenaline Tony what would you say is the most important lesson you've learned in all this how many you're 67. I'll be yeah I'll be 68 September I think the most important lesson is you have to give your kids opportunities to mess up so they can protect themselves I think they have to be students of human behavior and by hanging around groups of men whether it was at my the back room of my dad's gambling establishment or in a room with seven or eight guides fishing guides cleaning fish and you have to be a good listener and I thank you you'll you'll figure things out I think these helicopter parents are doing a real disservice for their children and I know it's necessary today is your ability to figure out what to do in in tough situations at an early age is what saved your life yeah exactly all right Tony thank you so much for sharing your stories you're welcome it was a fascinating thank you very much

Channel: Soft White Underbelly

Views: 2,318,217

Keywords: soft white underbelly, swu, John Gacy

Id: FnqjXSs-mLM

Length: 40min 24sec (2424 seconds)

Published: Wed May 10 2023