Carl Gustav Jung & The Red Book (part 2)

from the Library of Congress in Washington DC from the Library of Congress in DC you thank you thank you well we have a very full afternoon after a really spectacular morning let me introduce myself first I'm Joe Cambre I am the president-elect of the International Association for analytical psychology that's the professional group of young analysts around the world there are about 3000 of us and we were one of the contributors probably not the probably one of the smaller contributors to this but we're absolutely delighted and pleased by the meaning and significance of this event it's a real honor to be here to be addressing you for the Union community to be in this time in this place and so my thanks to the Library of Congress all of their staffs that have been so enormous ly helpful and supportive to us to the presenters for taking the time and making the arrangements to be here and to all of you for making your way to DC and to be a part of this this afternoon we're going to change keys a little bit now we're going to talk about the in this panel here about the Freud young history not so much in terms of just a rehash of what's known but I think you'll find we're going to be looking at intellectual history in a new way and as a part of that I wanted to just give you a few brief remarks I think it's still a part of the question of locating the red book in the field of history and culture what is this object that we all now have a copy of and that we're muddling our way you've heard a lot of different opinions this morning about its meaning and significance and I I'm not going to pretend that I know any deeper than anyone else since I probably less however in terms of thinking of this panel the first thing that occurred to me was that psychoanalysis when it first began was an extremely radical movement it was just a small number of people and it was a very bold and brave step in culture it really rethought the way the human mind is and perceives itself and we can trace that largely to Freud's dream book in ninth you know in many ways it spoke to the spirit of the times at the beginning of the last century and probably spoke for a significant part of the first half of the 20th century I would suggest the red book might be furthering that project not in a frightened way but in the Youngs own language in the spirit of the depths that this is about depth psychology not just simply Freudian or Union it's about how one encounters the depths of the psyche and what is this spirit of the depth that Jung was talking about again the paper about that mentioned the interface of order and chaos for me was telling me that we're at a moment of complexity it's a time of what the Greeks would have called Kairos that is it's a moment in which something very special is happening and if that moment is seized that transformation can occur and I would suggest there's something about the Kairos of this moment that it's this book at this moment that's caught on that that we're all absolutely amazed by I mean all the explanations I've heard I believe each one of them has a piece of something I don't think we have seen the whole of it yet for me the text is also an embryological text in the sense and at multiple levels there's a lot of egg imagery in the text there's a lot of incubation that the text refers to and I think there's a whole relationship to embryology biology and the place of the mind and that we're just in in other fields other disciplines and think of in biology things like epigenetics and so forth we are going through a transformation in the way in which we see the mind we're to let much less reductive than we were even ten years ago we don't think of molecular biology as the sole paradigm now for explaining biological systems we have a sense of their complexity and if ever there were a complex book this is it so I'm suggesting that is a background to what we're going to hear this afternoon we're not going to go so much into these particular texts but we are going to say I think talk about the radicalization the rear addict 'el is a shindig occurring in any encounter with depth and it's in a way the shock of the new and for me the the second thing I wanted to mention to you is the serendipity about it being placed in Jefferson's library you know III asked about that and it was the space that was available but Jefferson was really an extremely radical thinker to say the least and there's and I'm not a Jefferson scholar by any means but there was a book on Jefferson that I can recommend that would link here it's called the inner Jefferson it's by Andrew Burstein and it one of the chapters for example is the world of dreams and I think we're talking about a dream of the world that might go along with that so there very fact that it's located in the Jefferson building in in Jefferson's library it's in the core of it in a way it's sort of hidden into the heart of it and if you read burst Aang's book he suggests that Jefferson did something like active imagination even perhaps around writing of the Constitution I mean it's it's at least for me a wonderful fantasy proto Jungian so now what I'd like to do is I'd like to turn to our what we're going our speakers they are both we are really fortunate they're both eminent historians of the field of depth of analysis they know the analytic history of our analytic ancestors and are extraordinarily capable of articulating that history but even more of placing it in a broader context of intellectual history more generally so our first speaker today is going to be Ernst fault satyr who I had the pleasure of getting to know a number of years ago when I just at the point I was becoming the US editor of the Journal of analytical psychology we had some conferences and one of them was called Family Matters and Ernst was one of our speakers there and he put out the first network I've ever seen in the analytic community he had a map of the first 500 analysts and all of their relationships and he color-coded it so you could see who had slept with who who supervised do it was it's it's a marvelous if you think about network theory now that's become part of the Information Age Ernst took us back and showed us how the networks were in place from the our early history and then at San Francisco a wonderfully hosted Tom Kirsch and I worked together on hosting a set of history conferences and Ernst was and so no were both presenters at some of those conferences and that was again this cross fertilization between the communities was occurring there in an extraordinary way now Ernst is a senior editor of Philemon he's also a lecturer at the University of Innsbruck in Austria he's a psychotherapist it's a translator a skiing instructor and he's a former research scholar at the foundation Lee Jin tete for the history of Medicine in Geneva Switzerland he was a woodrow wilson fellow here in DC a few years back and then he came up to harvard and got to hear him fortunately in the Cambridge area he was available to us he's got over 200 publications on theory technique in the history of psychoanalysis he was the main editor of the Freud Ferran si correspondence all three volumes the complete Freud Abraham correspondence and more recently he's turned his interest too young and and what of what a good fortune for our community quite frankly he's of course those of you who've been interested in Jungian psychology know that he has translated Jung's children's dreams seminars Volume one and volume two which is to come out I gather in the fall and presently I get I found out he's they've just finished the Freud's letters to his children for publication so that correspondence will be revealed so we have a very rich and complex history and to give our first presentation thanks thank you very much good afternoon I have to confess it's a great pleasure for me to be back in Washington because I spent nine months across the street in the Adams building in the manuscript reading room going through all the Freud stuff they have there and it's like coming back home I'll be a bit more precise than my esteemed colleagues who spoke in the morning so I'm afraid there'll be a slight lowering of the intellectual and philosophical level or as young probably would have said and not be small Geneva Mont i'll i'm neither Freudian nor a Jungian but I'm interested in the history of science particularly in the history of ideas and in this perspective both Freud and Jung are extremely interesting topics I mean after all there's other two names but most people first think of in connection with the psychology and I think this curious fact alone would merit closer investigation we know that for a couple of years they collaborated and the publication of their correspondence in 1974 by William McGuire further kindled the interest of people in their relationship and spawned a plethora of articles and books even on their relationship but the ceragem Dasani has told us in the morning works on the Freud Jung relationship with very few exceptions have uniformly suffered from Freud eccentric frame in which they have viewed the genesis of complex psychology that is that they viewed Jung's theory primarily as an offshoot from psychoanalysis the smiths locating young and complex psychology in the intellectual history of the 20th century however I still find it incontestable that this was a crew shall encounter for both of them thus while keeping sona's warning in mind I'd like to take a fresh look on that relationship and in particular investigate how stimulating it was for Freud and for young how each of them took over ideas or suggestions from the other and then have a look at some of the consequences that had Freud and Jung have become larger than life their names have become something like stimulus words in a global Association experiment quickly drawing a host of reactions and associations while their theories have all but vanished except as historical references from most modern curricula in academic medicine psychiatry and psychology interestingly the last academic fields in which they still seem to hold some ground literary criticism and theology on the other hand their ideas have become diffused into popular culture to this very day and I think perhaps the fact that their influence and the Natural Sciences is obviously on the wane while on the other hand their influence in general culture is still very high is one reason for the ongoing controversies because while science wants to show that Freud and Jung outdated essentially unscientific or history people will continue to be stubbornly interested in and fascinated by their views the terms and concepts have become a part of our everyday language and even entries and dictionaries if offering garbled or misunderstood form everybody talks about the unconscious or subconscious even the collective unconscious about Freudian slips about archetypes repression the Oedipus complex narcissism introverts and extroverts about crust rating mothers anal-retentive people the importance of potty training by the midlife crisis identification projection it ego super-ego the father imago the death instinct inferiority complex regression and so on and on the very term psychoanalysis has enjoyed him and success and for many the name psychoanalyst or analyst has become a synonym for psychiatrist psychotherapists or as we say or you say shrink in general and the figure of the analyst and the couch has become a cartoon stereotype just think of the New Yorker cartoons everybody seems to know that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and many men actually still wonder what does woman want it has become commonplace to say the Freud has had an enormous influence on Western culture and society of the 20th century just quote a few voices Walheim wrote it would be hard to find in the history of ideas even in the history of religion someone whose influence was so immediate so broad and so deep Ernest Gellner there has been nothing like this since the spread of the potato and the maize and that and the diffusion of psychoanalysis was even faster and may have deeper implications wisten Auden said the Freud had become a whole climate of opinion and Harold Bloom called him the central imagination of our age practically no field in Western culture has not felt his impact let me just name a few of the fields that did feel his impact psychotherapy psychiatry medicine literature biography autobiography literary criticism film painting advertisement public relations education pedagogy sociology anthropology ethnology politics religion theology jurisdiction the penal system probation service and so on and on also journalism after I wrote down what I just read to you I took a cigarette break and leaped through my daily newspaper which reprinted a story that had been first printed first appeared in the New York Times and the story was about an exhibit that the Museum of Sex and the history of condoms and it ended with the line quote the condom is a declaration of sacrifice in the midst of indulgence counts the punch line it is evidence of civilization and its discontents and I'm quoting that not only because it's funny but because the author Edward Rothstein did not even feel the need to mention the name of Freud because he could be sure that his readers would understand the allusion to him there's probably only one cultural field in which Freud's impact is not visible or I'd better say audible that is music that is instrumental music because you know librettos or lyrics of songs obviously have also been influenced much of what I said about Freud is also true for young the quote cirno-chan Dasani his views of the continued relevance of myth were the seat belt for the mythic revival his interest in Eastern thought was the harbinger of the post-colonial Eastern ization of the West there is a massive counterculture that hails him as a founding figure and the impact of his work a mainstream 20th century Western culture has been far wider than has yet been recognized and of quote add to this but many of his concepts from the archetypes to the collective unconscious from the midlife crisis to his theory of complexes and of course his Die Paula G of introverts and extroverts have become household names in the process of being absorbed into everyday language however some of these terms and concepts have been garbled or distorted Jung's etymologically correct expression extra version for instance has turned into extra version which makes everybody with a minimal knowledge of Latin shudder what would you think of a term like Extra Ordinary for instance or extramarital that was a extracurricular remark few people realize when they use the popular expression of the inferiority complex that this is not a Freudian term but a garbled concoction of Adler's concept of inferiority feeling and Jung's theory of emotional complexes another thing Froy didn't have in common is that they were and continue to be the targets of heavy attacks Freud is declared dead in regular intervals but you that's right but usually with such vehemence and venom that this makes one doubt the accuracy of the death certificate as if the coroner's of dead bodies in the closets of science were afraid that he might rise from the dead again although Freud's critics have tried repeatedly in Cruz's word to relegate psychoanalysis to history's ashcan the heartfelt wish that Freud might have never been born or failing to achieve that and that all his works and influence be made as nothing that wish has still not been fulfilled it is indeed interesting that to this day for its name and theories can provoke heated controversies and there's more than 70 years after his death and I think that rather than being a sign that he and what he stood for is finally history such an anachronistic phenomenon is if nothing else a tribute to his ongoing influence young and Yvonne has been called many names another quote from shem Dasani occultist scientist prophet charlatan philosopher racist guru anti-semite liberator of women misogynist be an apostate agnostic postmodernist polygamist healer poet con artist psychiatrist and anti psychiatrist mention him to someone and here are likely to receive one of those images for you miss someone that people informed or not have opinions about so we're dealing with two highly controversial with often misunderstood intellectual Giants of the 20th century who still exert an enormous influence in popular culture myths also surround the few years of intense collaboration friendship love even which ended in a brutal falling out after the break Freud no longer had one good word to say about as he wrote about him the brutal sanctimonious young whose crooked character did not compensate me for his lopsided theories that's the former friend Crown Prince and heir apparent had become an enemy as too young he continued to pay lip service to the importance of Freud but Young's dismissal of practically all central tenets of Freud's theory and practice makes one wonder what he still found so important about him perhaps most important was youngsters rejection of Freud's method of investigating psychical phenomena namely free association and consequently he's abandoning of analyzing them for young the method of free association leads to a reductive explanation that is to say in his view free association will indeed uncover a person's complexes but it will not uncover the specific meaning of a particular psychical phenomena as a dream fact according to Jung you can free associate to just anything you know depend microphone or glass of water and you will arrive at those complexes which dominate you but that will tell you nothing about that pen or about a particular dream the underlying and crucial difference between Freud's and Jung's views is that for Freud the presenting dream for example is not a direct expression of an unconscious tendency not a natural expression so to speak but already a distortion or I'd better say a compromise formation between conflicting kandan sees within the psyche hiding a latent meaning behind the manifest facade the very term of psychoanalysis was introduced by Freud in analogy to chemical analysis to describe his method of breaking down complex phenomena into their basic psychic component parts like chemical analysis was able to show that organic matter was composed of elements such as carbon hydrogen oxygen etc psychoanalysis would be able to make an analogous analysis of psychical phenomena for young on the other hand dreams are direct and distorted emanations from the unconscious that need not and should not be analyzed according to young dreams are and that is a quote spontaneous products of the unconscious soul they are pure nature and therefore an unadulterated natural truth they represent still a quote a communication or message of the unconscious of the all one soul of humankind and of God the reason why they are not directly intelligible is that they speak to us in the peculiar language they speak in images in symbols thus our task is not to analyze a dream by breaking it down into its component parts and finding an alleged latent meaning behind the manifest content the manifest content is already the meaning and the message although couched in an archaic language which we have to learn in order to understand what the unconscious wants to tell us apart from using Dreams his method of soliciting emanations and manifestations of the unconscious was that of active imagination a method that produces a kind of waking visions or fantasies which he then subjected to what he called amplification which essentially consists in finding parallels to those images in collective imaginations such as myths religious systems and practices visions alchemy yoga etc in short as Freud in Eduard Glover but it Jung did not analyze dreams he them and to make a perhaps to some provocative point one could argue that the term young an analyst for a psychotherapist working in Young's tradition is actually a misnomer a contradiction in terms with hindsight it was probably inevitable that young took his distance from Freud the difference is already clearly visible from the very beginning but tolerated for some time proved to great there is no doubt however that as long as they did collaborate their encounter and also their controversies were stimulating to them what I find interesting and actually quite surprising however is that it seems that Freud took over much more from Jung and let himself be more influenced by the latter than vice versa Freud's foray into psychiatry his analysis of the Schreiber case his occupation with ethno psychology and the psychology of the so-called primitives in totem and taboo his introduction of the anal face in the psychosexual development his further development of the Liberto theory the introduction of the concept of narcissism the concept of countertransference his technical recommendations in general such as the models of the mirror and the surgeon of the rule of abstinence all these and I can approve this in detail but I've I've written extensively about that all these were at least partly answers to Jung his fascination with parapsychology however ambivalent was certainly also stimulated by his encounter with Jung moreover it's probably no coincidence that in 1910 at the height of their friendship Freud gave a particular name to one of his most influential concepts calling it the Oedipus complex thus honouring a term made popular by young complex quite a few of Young's other notions have also entered psychoanalytic mainstream imago for instance is a term first introduced by him in 1911 Freud and with him the whole psychoanalytic community to this day took up this term and 1912 Freud even named a newly founded journal imago and by the way there still exists a journal called American imago Freud also took over the concept of what Jung called the introversion of the Libba dough which termed Freud called felicitous and in some of his formulations Freud came also near to Jung's notion of a collective unconscious I will skip that passage Jung and of course also I employ Allah and the other collaborators at the book Huxley were also the first to investigate psychosis from a psychoanalytic or psychologically dynamic viewpoint psychotic cases were practically absent in the private practice of Freud and his followers in Vienna who mainly worked with so-called nervous diseases that is new roses and psychosomatic or functional disorders Jung's book the psychology of dementia praecox 1907 established his worldwide reputation later psychoanalysts working with psychotic patients so much to the pioneering work of Boyland young often without acknowledging it or even without being aware of the fact other concepts controversial at the time have also entered analytic theory and practice to a certain extent for example Jung's method of dream interpretation and the subjective plane or level his view of the compensated function of the unconscious his extension of developmental psychology to cover the whole lifespan or his stress and the importance of present conflicts and not only of repressed childhood memories in the psychoanalytic process surprisingly young seems also seems to have been the first to see infantile neuroses as the result of what the parents unconsciously project onto their children and not mainly as the result of a child's internal conflicts a view so widespread today that it is worth remembering how revolutionary it was at the time and finally young and the Zurich school were also the first to call for the necessity of a training analysis of the future analysts as explicitly acknowledged by Freud a training requisite taking over by practically all dynamically oriented psychotherapeutic schools in the light of all this it is beyond me how Edward Glover could arrive at his judgement quote I have been unable to find that young has injected anything into Freud's ideas and of groats this could rather be said about what Freud injected into Jung's ideas with the exception of a short period of intense collaboration during which Jung also sometimes half-heartedly or not toed the line from the beginning Jung had his own agenda his agreement with Freud remained on a rather unspecific general level while from the first contact onward he voiced his reservations against specific but central tenets of Freud's theory above all against the sexual theory true Jung I think was fascinated by Freud as a person by how seriously Freud took psychical phenomena such as fantasies dreams slips by how closely he listened to his patients and looked at details nothing was too unimportant absurd or seemingly meaning not to be studied and analyzed from the beginning however Young had great reservations against the theoretical conclusions Freud drew from his observations Jung himself explicitly stated quote I do not come from Freud but from Iloilo and Pierre Jean a who were my direct teachers when I publicly took a stand for Freud I already enjoyed a generally known scientific reputation through my research and associations conducted independently of Freud and the theory of complex is based on it I collaborated with Freud with the principal reservation against the sexual theory and only up until the moment when Freud identified his theory with the method as a matter of principle for some time these differences were ignored or downplayed by both protagonists with hindsight we may rather ask ourselves why they had become so close at all in the first place for a relatively long period or why they hadn't split much sooner Freud was certainly blinded by his sympathy by the invaluable support of Loyola and Jung to world-famous non-jewish psychiatrists and academics by his hopes that's a Freud quote to conquer all psychiatry and the approval of the civilized world with the help of yarn and to rescue that's another Cloyd quote to rescue psychoanalysis from the danger of becoming a Jewish national affair and also by the great plans he had for young as his successor for a long time he made light of all of the all too clear signals of dissent that Jung kept sending him down deviate too far from me wrote Freud too young when you are really so close to me if you do we may one day be played off against one another conclusion I'm afraid in the short time it has been impossible for me to give you more than a few glimpses coming to the field of young studies as a freud scholar in studying Jung I've been increasingly impressed by how crucially different his theory is from that of Freud I think that many people who see the Freudian and Jungian systems as just two variants of basically the same orientation and who seen analytical psychology a further development of psychoanalysis be it in the right or wrong direction whatever but those people have been disregarding the fact that Jung had a radically different concept of the unconscious because at first glance this seems to be their common ground both the eminent psychologists of the so-called unconscious so it seems perfectly sensible to see young the younger of the two as following in Freud's footsteps especially if one adopts the wrong idea that Freud was the discoverer of the unconscious yet the most devastating criticism voiced against Jung from the Freudians from the beginning was probably not that he did not accept the theory of the sexual etiology of the neurosis but that he as Ferran si wrote to Freud already in 1912 doesn't know the unconscious that seems to be precisely the question did Jung mistakenly explain certain psychical phenomena as manifestations not of personal unconscious conflicts but of an impersonal collective entity or did Freud mistakenly overlook or downplay the fat that certain experiences often deeply disturbing and dangerous cannot be explained by the psychology of the individual but but must be seen as messages from something infinitely greater than the psychology of the individual and his personal development was young a deeply disturbed person who escaped the psychosis only by a hairsbreadth but turning his personal psychopathology into pseudo scientific psychological system or was he a sia prophet even who finally understood that his profoundly disturbing visions dreams and experiences were not the signs of a psychotic disposition but messages from a trans individual collective sphere that predicted world events I confess I seen a way of reconciling these two views so it would be only naturally to ask till then what who was right Freud or Jung actually I've been told that Americans like to go for simple alternatives that they like that they like to be all for all against things I don't know if that is true but if that's really the case I'm afraid I will now close by disappointing you by not answering the question for the intellectual historian as I see myself the task is not to recommend a choice between two alternatives but to study the history of these two related adjoining but still fundamentally different concepts the vicissitudes of their respective developments their collaboration falling-out rapprochement distancing the mutual misunderstandings but also the cross fertilization that took place no definitive answers then but still a fascinating chapter in the history of the neverending study of the human mind thank you [Music] Thank You Ernst that was a fascinating study I'm sorry we didn't have a chance to unpack it further there's so much there not only you're a wonderful witty way of framing some of these things but I think some of the questions you're raising like where did Young's ideas come from what was his his what was his training as a psychiatrist and as a psychotherapist like what are the kinds of things that led him ultimately to something like the red book experiments I think that's that's a chapter that will be very interesting for us to hear more of but we need for time purposes now to turn to our second speaker professor George Macari who has recently in 2008 written a really excellent book he's done much writing in the course of his career but I particularly want to bring this book to your attention it's called revolution in mind and the creation of psychoanalysis and it not only is an intellectual history of psychoanalysis with all of the usual players but it has a both a narrative coherence and a depth of integration into what else was happening in culture so that you can get a feeling for what the movement meant and when he comes to Jung it's one of the most fair-minded treatments I've ever seen in the psychoanalytic world I was very impressed when I read it I felt like the young that I was reading there was recognizable to me as a Jungian so that was really a rather extraordinary experience because that you know from the Glover quotes you can see that's obviously not always been the case let me just tell you a few things about the professor and Macari he's a historian obviously a professor of psychiatry a psychoanalyst he is the director of the DeWitt Wallace Institute for the history of psychiatry and the oskar detailed library at the Wilde Cornell Medical College where he's also a full professor and actually we have has that intersect because he did his undergraduate where I live and in Rhode Island at Brown University and he went to Weill Cornell Medical College so with that brief introduction let me turn that firm over to dr. Makar [Applause] I'm gonna I'm gonna stand up it's the least I can do I kept thinking can't I do something better like come up with some major world historical diary that I had discovered or even a good joke about sex and condoms but so at the very least I'll stand up my paper is entitled Freud Jung and the paradoxes of enlightenment the relationship of Sigmund Freud and Carl Jung remains one of the most monumental encounters of the 20th century there's is a dramatic story of a friendship and partnership that failed it's a parable of fathers and sons as well as a study in clashing ambitions leaders and followers and the disparate cultures of Protestant Zurich and Jewish Vienna the recent publication of the red book affords us a new opportunity to reassess this tandem Freud and Jung and see what new light can be cast on their joint work their rupture and the divergent communities they would come to represent for decades the most common interpretation of the collaboration and divorce of these two men focused on personal matters and the red book provides new material for those who would hone in on biography and think about the relationship of Jung and Freud for it documents a great deal about Jung around the time that his relationship with Freud exploded however the red book also offers something to scholars who would pull back their lens and consider these men through a broader inquiry of the social political and cultural forces that shape them and that they in turn shaped from this vantage point the debates between the father of psychoanalysis and the founder of analytical psychology take on a different shape the rupture between these two does not merely represent political infighting matters of domination or rebellion or even specific narrow theoretical disputes but rather I believe it represents an important clash in a continuing struggle over the nature of modernity and the meaning of that heavily freita dword enlightenment numerous myths regarding Freud and Jung have stemmed from an overly biographical reliance a overly biographical method from this vantage point it seemed plausible to assert that Freud invented psychoanalysis by himself an idea that has been chipped away out for years and which my history revolution in mind was intended to lay to rest with regard to Jung numerous fables abounded as well including two central interconnected ones the first reduced Jung to being a mere disciple of dr. Freud and that then made possible a second in which analytical psychology insofar as it differed from the Freudian model originated solely from Jung and his genius both of these myths have been discredited due to the work of Shonda Sami and others in this more open narrative space I would like to briefly sketch out the outlines of another narrative one that relies less on the utter originality and individual genius of these men and more on a study of the larger intellectual communities that I will suggest in part United and then separated Sigmund Freud and Carl Jung around 1900 it would have been hard to mistake Zurich for Vienna Vienna was the center of a failing Empire a swarming free-thinking multi-ethnic metropolis barely held together by Catholic and monarchist Authority Zurich on the other hand was the stable Protestant capital of one of 22 Swiss Kent Canton's each of which and enjoyed a good deal of autonomy and democracy both places of course were German speaking but Switzerland was unique in that it unified ethnically French Italian and German citizens this would become important after 1870 when bitter nationalism forced the French and Germans apart the intellectuals from these places ceased their dialogue in France Germany and austria-hungary but not in Switzerland where the remained an open marketplace of ideas aided by these advantages the Swiss would play an inordinately large role in attempts to synthesize French and German ideas of the mind in Zurich for example through the leadership of dr. Auguste Ferrell the Burke Holy Hospital incorporated German lab science with French clinical innovations and moved to the cutting edge of both brain research and mental therapies by the last decades of the 19th century in 1898 pharrell turned the directorship over to one of his former students Paul Eugen Bleuler Euler was almost exactly Sigmund Freud's contemporary born one year after the Viennese physician and as we shall see both of these doctors shared a number of views common to their generation boiler and Freud were political liberals who rejected romantic medicines speculative excesses and dedicated themselves to the power of reason and science after graduating from the University of Zurich Medical School in 1881 Euler took a scientific grand tour where he like Freud travelled to Paris to study with Charcot and was deeply impressed by the power of hypnotism and unconscious mental processes for six months the young graduate again like his Viennese counterpart dedicated himself to the study of brain anatomy first in Munich and then with Pharrell and Zurich finally in the late 1880s as Josef Breuer and Freud was mulling over the case of Anna oh and Vienna Pharrell and Eugen Bleuler hypnotized each other in Zurich and published papers on this strange phenomenon soon both boiler and Freud were convinced that complex unconscious psychic processes could rationally rationally explain mysteries including dissociated action fugue states hysterical symptoms and cases of multiple personality no surprise then that when these two men discovered each other they quickly made an alliance however the connections between boiler and freud and boilers young assistant dr. karl gustav jung were more tenuous born nearly two decades later young came from a generation that oriented itself in part against the perceived ideological excesses of their teachers Sigmund Freud had come of age in a period where liberalisation encouraged young Jews in the austro-hungarian Empire to hope that the Enlightenment values of secularism and science could defeat the entrenched power of church and court and the nefarious forces of anti-semitism and superstition two decades later Carl Jung came of age in a quite different time during the fiendish siècle a time when a resurgent neo-romanticism decry the shortcomings of a strict commitment to the rules of positivist science in which it seemed according to Ernst Mach and many others there was no human self and the inner lauryl world was lost Jung's interest in romanticism ran deep he was the proud grandson of the Basel physician Carl Gustav Jung the elder who had distinguished himself as an ardent Democrat and a romantic physician fascinated by psychological models of illness Carl's father Paul was a Protestant clergyman who near the end of his life had a crisis of faith and turned to studies of hypnotism and Jung's mother was from a prominent Basel family that firmly believed in supernatural happenings in 1895 Young began Medical School in Basel where the University was a liberal Bastion in a city that hosted apocalyptic brands of Protestantism on the weekends Carl studied cont Schopenhauer and that philosopher of the unconscious Edward von Hartman he absorbed the writings of Friedrich Nietzsche who made a quote tremendous unquote impression this was the standard diet of his generous and young soaked it up while at the University young was a buoyant and active member of the universities so Phineas Students Association there he gave lectures that revealed a desire to limit science and cordon off a domain for mystery and human subjectivity these youthful speeches dramatized the divide between young and medical students of boiler and Freud's vintage while the older men had been driven to roll back mystifying religious dogma and irrational social conventions young and many of his colleagues recoiled from the soul killing results of their elders program Jung mocked those who would parrot the hero of German science who he dismissed as Papa Du Bois Raymond it's a reference to Emil Dubois Ramon the most famous leader of Berlin science schooled by this is in Young's voice quote our great master unquote Kant as well as Schopenhauer and Nietzsche Jung urged his fellow students to open a space for the irrational and subjective in an otherwise mechanised world in accordance with these views Karl began to conduct some research on his own picking up a line of inquiry from his family Karl's mother's family was immersed in spiritism a movement that emerged from the great American awakening of the 1840s and became popular in Europe soon after this fashionable craze that included receiving messages from the dead mysterious turning tables and mediums was not restricted to laypeople it also attracted scientists like whr Myers and William James who sought to examine these incredible phenomena for young such things were very possibly believable after all as a child similar phenomena had emanated from his mother's bedroom at night where he saw luminous happenings including a repetitive hallucination or vision of a figure whose head was detached from its body in his first year of medical school Jung began to attend the family seances his aunts and cousins sat around an old oak table and waited for rumbles knocks and others from the beyond soon signs came in abundance from Jung's cousin the fifteen-year-old Helene heli it seemed could speak for the dead after his beloved father's death Carl was often in attendance at the seances but after four years his interest fell off especially after Hill Helle was caught cheating by then Karl had decided to study psychiatry when he set out to write his medical thesis he chose to explore his cousin's strange voyages into the beyond confident that no one at the University would be receptive to such a study Jung set it aside then on December 11th of 1900 that young medical graduate was hired as an assistant doctor at the bear cult Slee in professor broiler Jung found a teacher who shared his fascination in bizarre mental phenomena boiler encouraged his staff to study the most recent literature on the subjects and so just six weeks after his arrival in Zurich Jung presented his colleagues with a synopsis of the latest work on dreams by Sigmund Freud in this setting Jung went back to his dissertation but his approach had changed from any wide-eyed credulity from his medical school days his 1902 on psychology and pathology of the so called occult phenomena makes no allowance for mysterious otherworldly happenings instead it was solidly part of a robust genre in which scientific authors demystified the strange the miraculous and the otherworldly Jung explained his cousin's visions and voices via references to shark shark oohs Gong estefy and Jan a psychic desire desire ooh gasps yawns scuse me the authority Jung turned to most as Shambo Sami has shown was a fellow Swiss Theodore Flournoy Jung followed Fleur night by positing that his cousin had an unconscious second personality that had split off from the conscious eye and could therefore perform complex tasks on its own in the end his view of the source of her disorder was conventional hell he had a pathological constant solution the young romantic had gone over to the other side or so it seemed and the contrast between the University student and the young doctor was about to grow even more extreme after finishing his dissertation Carl Jung took a leave of absence from the barre cold sleet and went to Paris whereas so no shows us he honed his considerable painting skills and sat in on lectures by Pierre Jenay he then returned to Zurich in 1903 to resume work on a research project that would alter his life the word association tests initiated by you´ve and boiler these lab experiments would come to be closely linked to Jung and they would make him famous given his youthful concerns about science murdering off the subjective realm of man the irony was stark for these lab studies imposed a strict mechanistic model on to mental life and yet the conclusions drawn from these studies were anything but narrow by studying timing and tracking associations broiler declared in 1906 we grasped quote all the psychical processes which we have to decipher in order to understand the complete man unquote huming beans boilers seemed to say were simply the sum of their associations and complexes a claim that while seemingly weak on its face value very nicely conformed to the strictest evidentiary demands of science and therefore made a tremendous splash in that community as Jung was thrust into the limelight via this experimental work in Vienna Freud the man whose secret hope in 1895 was to create a fully deterministic and quantifiable Newtonian account of the mind and brain that same Freud was riding his own wave of recognition after 1905 in part encouraged by young Viennese radicals of Jung's generation Freud began to publicly assert that can mentioning sexual ethics including monogamy were pathological and unsustainable this belief drew shocked from pillars of Viennese society and admiration from the growing number of twenty-something modernists like Otto ronk Karl Kraus Rosa my reader Fritz vittles and Otto gross Freud embraced these Newton itches spewing newcomers though he often found himself opposing their views as naive and extreme and so just as Carl Jung was being pulled by professor boiler into the center of the scientific community Sigmund Freud was being pushed out into the smoky world of cafe culture by his rebellious admirers and it was precisely during this disorienting time that these two men commenced their intense relationship in Freud Jung hoped to find a mentor who unlike boiler was less afraid to push hard at the limits of conventional science in the service of better grasping in her life and sexuality in Jung Freud believed he had discovered a most judicious scientifically-minded pupil and for a while these expectations held in 1908 when the Freudians first gathered in Salzburg the once blustery Carl young stood as a paragon of scientific restraint refusing to give in to the extreme trauma theories of dementia praecox put forward by carl labrum insisting with boiler and others that there was clearly a toxin at work simultaneously the older Freud who once worshiped the positivism of Ernst bruger reigned over a band that included the anarchist libertine Otto gross who toasted Freud as a moral revolutionary to which the professor dryly replied we are doctors and doctors is our intention to remain should have done it with an accent Jung and Freud had both risen to a kind of Fame neither we can be fairly sure would have scripted there a sense quite this way nonetheless in 1910 Freudian Jung's alliance was so strong that along with Chandra firenzi they tried to permanently cement their bonds they jointly created the International psychoanalytical Association with the demand that all members fully adopt Freudian psychosexual tea as their theory and accept Carl Jung as their president for life [Applause] much to their dismay how could they have known this turned out to be a disaster their attempt at consolidation led to immediate revolt and schism the notion of a strict Freudian theoretical line was intolerable to some like boiler and for others especially the Viennese the idea of deferring to crawl young as long as he walked this earth was impossible in the fraud period that now followed seeing the departure of boiler Adler and then steckel Carl Jung's possible theoretical divergences from Freud became a topic of grave concern for Freud and his dwindling true believers they grew panicked that their president and the editor of their most important journal may not be faithful to the cause over the next month Sigmund Freud and Carl Jung would increasingly challenge and disappoint each other Freud was not more open-minded but increasingly tyrannical and young was not the reserved scientists but rather prone to flights of mystical wandering or so each man could legitimately think the two psychoanalysts would press each other to explain the nature of legitimate Authority the bounds of science and the distortions of the psyche not excluding each of their own tension grew after Jung's fordham lectures in 1912 and then increased in 1913 when Jung along with mater proposed that the deepest meaning of a dream lay not in wish-fulfillment but rather a kind of adaptive mental processing of the future this last change was deeply disturbing to the Freudians Freud believed he had rescued dreams from charlatans and clairvoyance and given it a firm scientific basis the idea that it might be turned back into something like clairvoyance was unthinkable just two months after Jung sent a letter to the Freud defending his critical theoretical turn on dreams on October 1st 1913 he suffered what we've already heard about a terrifying two-hour hallucination of the earth running with blood in which he was told this was a premonition of things to come frightened he was quote doing a schizophrenia unquote an illness we should remember young believed was due to an untreatable toxin this bizarre experience left him searching for a different answer an answer to be found perhaps by descending into the mysterious realms he had first explored as a young man Young's inner turmoil likely explains this once-mighty powerbrokers precipitous next actions on October 27 1913 to the shock and delight of Freud stalwarts Berserker who had spoken of the psychoanalytic movement as his own did his enemies work for them and resigned as editor of the journal this made no sense to Ernest Jones and others who were sure it must be part of a complex Machiavellian plot it was not as the red book makes clear the world Carl Jung had fashioned for himself after he entered the Bell closely in 1900 had cracked in 1914 Carl Jung also resigned as president of the IPA and soon the great war broke out which the Zurich er took as confirmation of his prophetic vision of blood in the streets he turned inward a turn that he would later say returned him to his own soul and would mark the beginnings of analytical psychology by focusing on the broader contexts that animated Sigmund Freud and Carl Jung's relationship we can see the outlines of a larger story the looming question that brought these two men together and would separate them was one of the great great questions of modernity it is a question as pressing for us today as it was in 1784 when a German periodical received Immanuel Kant's short famed essay simply entitled what is enlightenment what indeed 17th and 18th century savants touted the power of the mind to emancipate men and women and lead them from darkness into light reason analysis and skepticism were the tools that would free Hume from the chains of delusion dare to know that was their credo however there was a great paradox at the heart of these spreading beliefs the most prestigious and powerful form of knowledge that they acknowledged natural science tended to happily dismiss the mind as an impotent fiction as well as a sneaky way of trying to maintain a supernatural immaterial soul famously some philosophers and physicians tried to find a third way between scientific materialism and the soul such as such as John Locke's notion of God and out thinking matter numerous vitalists from the Montpellier tradition and elsewhere and some post Conti and idealists but the fact is by the middle of the 18th of the 19th century the once radical notion that inner life in the mind were mere products of the brain machine had one the day one now witnessed the spectacle of highly intellectual experts coming up with very creative arguments that seemed to prove the mind could never be creative by the end of the 19th century many recognized the absurdity of this position and vied to create a tenable science of psychic life for these 19th century doctors psychologists psychiatrists and philosophers the paradoxes of the Enlightenment needed to somehow be unknotted they were forced to address foundational questions such as on the one hand what kind of science was required to not reduce the psyche into nothingness and on the other what kind of wider bore psychology could actually establish valid and verifiable truths now Freud maintained a strong identification with the atheistic radical enlightenment of Spinoza this was the man Freud that is who dared to know even when that daring meant declaring children to be polymorphously perverse but these same very radicals he identified with were precisely the thinkers unlike the more moderate enlightenment reformers it was precisely these radical enlightenment thinkers who were the ones who dismissed mental life in many ways Sigmund Freud's effort efforts can be seen as trying to salvage the ideology of Pierre Bayle Diderot we could say Jefferson since we're here and the encyclopedist by both creating a model of the mind that was scientifically tenable in an otherwise wholly deterministic mechanistic world and by expanding their DRI notions of reason to include the subject matter of Romanticism that is subjectivity and the powers of irrational mental forces now what have Jung during his personal crisis as the red book demonstrates he imaginatively returned to a lost pre-modern world a place where meaning was not statistical or chemical it loomed everywhere it was a world of omens epiphanies and revelations a place of angels and devils where the very notion of enlightenment was no longer that of the Lumiere's but rather spiritual enlightenment Jung's illuminated manuscript can be read as an attempt to heal his own inner world by reconnecting with a pre-modern pre-enlightenment Europe this text of a soul in torment is confessional and prophetic in tone it shows the Zurich doctor once famed for nearly quantifying the inner world now thrown deep into a Gnostic search reason and natural law have been blinders he throws them off and returns to a time where body and soul were one a world of ancestors in which the dark night of the soul somehow led to daybreak in this work Jung joins as speakers Sonu and others have spoken about today dante of course but also blake Novalis Coleridge shellene and Nietzsche who he was reading at the time and in this return young like these others can be accused of being perilously nostalgic after all that world of hellfire and prophecy was also one of witch trials mass death before the plague and divinely mandated brute authority if Carl Jung had simply published the red book and continued in this vein that critique it seems to me would be plausible surely then he would be considered among those who turned their back on the Western enlightenment and embraced forms of spiritual enlightenment from both the judeo-christian and Eastern traditions however I would suggest Carl Jung's legacy does not conform to this formulation he did not want to become a guru as he himself made clear the red book set Jung out on a mission to find a place for his personal epiphanies in the language and logic of science in the end this task was so difficult that it required Jung to propose a new kind of causality in his work on synchronicity with Vulcan Pao Lee unlike Blake and Coleridge Carl Jung spent decades trying to incorporate his visions and imaginings his critique of rationality into something rational something that did not simply demand blind faith but could bear up against doubt and so in the end Jung was not an anti enlightenment rejectionist but rather what is a hiya Berlin has called a thinker from the counter enlightenment tradition one of those nearly forgotten hybrids a romantic scientist in the mould of the great Gustav Fechner another who experienced mystical wonder and then sought to use the methods of science to validate and convey these insights the break between Sigmund Freud and Carl Jung remains fascinating to us for many reasons but I would argue that in part it remains fascinating because it restage is a great conflict that still royal's Western culture Freud and Jung met in a deep ravine ripped in the landscape of modernity it was a divide that segregated the Enlightenment world of Natural Science from the great enlightenment ideals of Reason freedom of thought human nobility and individuality the missing bridge between these two new worlds was a scientifically tenable model of inner life both Freud and Jung tried to build such a bridge though today neither 20th century giant can rest easily for their solutions have been at best only marginally successful still they have not quite disappeared because there is no present accepted science of subjectivity and even worse it seems to me little serious discussion discussion of the paradoxes and difficulties of this subject specialization has left scientists and humanists far apart and the prestige of the former in our biological zeitgeist makes any debate seem unnecessary and so we are left each of us to sort out problems incurred by trying to marry reason and passion mind and body our selves as machines and as creative spiritual beings however a century ago Sigmund Freud and Carl Jung vigorously debated these same issues their relationship provides us with much more than a contrast in personalities it forces us to reflect on the complex inheritance modernity has bequeathed us thank you very much [Applause] well thank you George that was especially the last part of that I think is just so important for us in terms of where we're at now looking towards the future the models that we may begin to look back to there is a tradition of course in German romantic scientists sign science that connects to Natur philosophy and so forth it's getting a recurrence that in terms of holism that comes from complexity theory but that's a whole other thing what I'd like to do is is open the floor briefly for questions we're a little bit over but since we started 10 minutes late I would like to give you a chance to ask these two speakers anything you you would like to bring up right now okay hi I was just um can you hear me it's just a little bright up here yeah we can hear you funny yeah I was thinking and discussing just now that you I don't think that we can really understand Freud and your as you so eloquently presented outside of the context of history and also philosophical thought at that time they seem to be you know yes scientists but I guess if they're more accepted as philosophers of the mind so I was wondering about how the most current studies on the brain and the mind of what they've discovered in terms of biology would you be able to relate that in terms of how can that be integrated into the I guess the insights or the wisdom or the philosophies of the psychology of the mind of Lord and um are they very very far apart or they have no thank you for that question it's a great question and it's I think one that that needs to be asked look certainly there are efforts I think however is there anyone here from the NIH right now I didn't think so there it is really look the it I think that there are certainly attempts and I think that any attempt is worthwhile I certainly don't want to you know be overly critical there are people who are trying to somehow bridge mind and brain I think the critical questions is to be aware of how difficult that problem is I would say we haven't gotten anywhere with it but the I think the effort is it has to be sustained I think many have given up and simply think of it as a non-issue so the people the ni MH keep finding you know a new gene for some extraordinarily complex human behavior or experience and and the times keeps using the wonderful conditional tense when they report it as they do again and again and again gene found that might explain poetry so the failure of the discussion about a serious discussion about what's at stake this is going from a very large panel to a dot on the map as it were but in the exhibit upstairs the original correspondence is much is made of the Crites Lincoln gesture and Humes very feeling a great slight that Freud did not travel the 40 miles odd miles to visit him my to expand on that and did did Freud really knowingly avoid Jung was it was it really a slight he intended that's a specific question which is easily answered Freud did write to young that it would visit Binswanger in Kreutz Lincoln but Jung was not a town when Freud's letter arrived he was in the sailing trip and he thought that Freud had not informed him because he got the letter too late but because of his own fault because he didn't check that that date when it was written check your email yeah just a question about what you're then both present as potations afraid what's the I mean how would you contrast Freud's purpose in there and giving therapy to an individual versus Jung's what would their aims what would they how do they view the aim of therapy and especially maybe with a little bit of the idea of teleology that seems to be a teleology and you know and we do not see in Freud and probably having to do with that Viennese culture you were talking about but the different aims that you can yeah I have to say that I don't feel like I'm an expert on you know the last really the post 1920 Carl Jung so I don't feel confident answering that question you know I think that whenever you you talk about someone as complicated and as intellectually rich as either Freud or Jung there usually is more than one answer to that kind of question so that people try to answer those questions and they say Freud was X and you can pretty much find something in the standard edition that justifies X except there's also y&z and so in a way the close study of how these people change and why they feel a need to change his goals about therapy changed by the end of Freud's life he was interested in the scientific exploration of the unconscious had very little interested in therapeutics and cure to the to the you know dismay of many around and Forenza and others in the early part of his life I think he was actually a therapeutic zealot something he later that has these beautiful quotes that says you should never be you get wrapped up in a transference and countertransference enactment so you know that I I think that that you know I tried to outline in my book a number of different kind of moments about precisely that that have logic because of what was half I'm sorry that that's not a clear answer just one comment for myself about that having run a number of conferences where young ins and Freudians were together while our theories were radically different we actually found clinically we weren't so far apart in terms of what we actually said and did in the course of ours however I do think there were questions of the ultimate goal of where the treatments were going and that's still one of the things that we do not have yet is a Journal of comparative analysis and I think your question goes to the heart of that it would really be interesting to do long-term studies of where do we actually go and not just an anecdotal case or two but but as a field so the questions an excellent one thanks I think time wise we're going to need to what one last question all right one last question here and then we'll take a break can we have a microphone up up front here oh I'm sorry I'm sorry I didn't realize I can't see anything the question that I have has to do with the field that we call the soul a deep feeling for the soul the psyche we use that term the deep emotional self the poetic term I'm not hearing the word occur very much in a conversation but here the mind I hear the brain but in the discussion one of the things that the young'uns are very very concerned about is is this thing called the soul and that poet's called the deep emotional self or that we sometimes may refer to as the religious function in the psyche and I haven't I don't know where that that whole you know collection of ideas and thoughts and feelings occur in this conversation could you please help me yeah no I thank you for that that it occurs in in my talk very much in the in the context of romanticism that romanticism German Romanticism was centrally interested in the soul and and precisely concerned with the loss of the soul that the reaction of the romantics to the perception of late 18th century enlightenment thinking was to in some way preserve protect and honor and think about the possibility of soul not just for individuals but world soul so that whole tradition is something that flows into young as far as I can alright so that what we're going to do is we're going to step down from the podium and let the next group of speakers come up [Applause] we have two distinguished authors and union analysts talking to us this afternoon my name is Betty Sue flowers I was formerly the director of the LBJ library my connection here though is not through President Johnson although that's probably pretty mythological in itself but I was the series consultant for Joseph Campbell and the power of myth and there there are a lot of interesting stories there just let me say that I was amazed we didn't think anybody would be interested in this I guess it's like the publisher Norton putting out a small edition first of the read book there's enormous hunger and interest in this material of course as you know the Campbell series was interesting to people not so much because of mythology but because of the Union the Union aspect of Campbell's approach to mythology and it captured the imagination of many people across the country I was surprised that this material also to some extent was radioactive in two places one was academia where I was a professor and I would be I would say attacked what was I doing with this mystical obscurantist anti-semite and the other was in churches where I was often asked to speak and inevitably someone would stand up and say you were on the side of the heretics and the best thing we can do is get rid of all this Campbell myth young business so I think there is a conversation and culture that is yet to be had which was raised in the last panel and I think it's something that if we have time we could discuss further here but we do have two very interesting speakers I'm eager to hear what they have to say I am going to keep us to time in in relation to the building which isn't a real object the door is shut so our first speakers John Beebe he's talking about Young's pursuit of character in Libra Novus bee-bees training includes the University of Chicago Medical School Stanford University Medical School's department of psychiatry and the Union stitute in San Francisco he's the founder of the San Francisco young Institute Library Journal which is now known as the young journal culture and psyche and I think it's true that if you go online John you can find all the the articles that you that you added to so I recommend that so he served for seven years as the first American co-editor of the london-based journal of Anna analytical psychology and he's a past president of the Union stitute of San Francisco and a distinguished life fellow of the American Psychiatric Association he's edited a number of collections including Jung's aspects of the masculine he's the author of or co-author of numerous articles and books including psychiatric treatment crisis clinic and consultation integrity and depth and the presence of the feminine in film he's lectured around the world on topics related to analytical psychology especially psychological types the analysis of film the psychology of moral character and now the red book thank you John [Applause] [Music] [Applause] it's interesting that an introduction is always about your capacities your capability that has earned you a spot on a program like this and it's kind of reassuring after the breakfast of champions we had this morning to be able to remind you as we approach tea that young really begins liebherr Novus with the most fascinating riff on the value of in capacity this from a man who had read everything met everyone conquered the earth for depth psychology delivered the psychiatric establishment to Freud which ironically he could never get back again and knew everything there was to know about being capable and high achieving and in the most amazing way on the eve of World War one where nations are about to vie for power and influence and now we know the story of the three cousins as so beautifully told any fun isn't it isn't it one of the Miranda's Miranda seemed or maybe the cousins were not the cousins wore a different title but the three cousins are having the this bizarre the Kaiser and the King of England are all vying for which of Victoria's grandchildren is going to is going to conquer the markets and the earth and we have this in my opinion highly unnecessary war of World War one as the result here we have this very successful man starting the red book with the sacrifice of the hero the sacrifice of the German hero Siegfried the sacra the actually he ends up assassinating Siegfried who in the myth as described in a book published in 1912 wore a shield with a crown on it and was the Crown Prince of a Sigmund and Jung gives up the it the Crown Prince role in the psychoanalytic movement the dream he has of killing Siegfried which is recorded in Libra Novus happens to have been dreamt on the night that he sent the letter that you can see upstairs that provoked Freud to break off one year anniversary to the day that letter was sent and he kills off that role but just as much he discovers in the course of finding out now that he's not going to be a Freudian analyst what kind of analyst he's going to be what is the unconscious he has this amazing synchronistic event that the very thing he dreams the killing of a Crown Prince happens and starts the war and explains that vision of blood he wasn't doing excuse if Renia his psyche was picking up on a collective trend and that little drama between him and freud around sent scientific power and influence was part of a much larger drama in which someone was going to have to try to kill the crown prince and kill off the notion of the hero for Western enlightenment culture the time of the solar hero was over and Jung got the message that his psyche had somehow wanted to underline on that anniversary what he had chosen to do with Freud and what was still ahead for him his resignation as the president of the International psychoanalytic movement it was time to get past that and then he does something that I think is absolutely astonishing he decides with AZ that the meaning of the dream is that he's been killed off his ideal of efficiency so what should he be doing instead and he says it is time to embrace incapacity incapacity rather than find a new way of going up a new alternative psychoanalytic theory that triumphs over all he's going to go on a journey to see how far he can get by going down he makes the downward movement now in the killing of Siegfried he kills off a kind of role that really had taken him away from himself as we just heard in the beautiful presentation of dr. Macari where we really get the and and we get the feeling or how much Jung moved away from the young man he had been around the time he started he stopped writing in that brown book in 1902 and then picks it up again something like 1314 years 13 years later eleven years later he picks it up to start the work that will eventually become transcribed into the red book and realizes he's gone very far away from his soul in the process of becoming among other things the general for the psychoanalytic movement and generally a person of great capability he realizes he that that that he's got to go looking for his soul and he makes the decision to go down and down he goes as soon as Jean Dasani has told us all the way to hell now what I find interesting is that he recognizes this in a Swiss Protestant way as a kind of duty that he is somehow complicit in the evil of the time which is this patriarchal solar hero achievement and responsibility trip of as much efficiency as much success as possible what would happen if instead of his capacity he embraced his incapacity and it's amazing how far he goes so it seems to me in Jung's pursuit of character the first moment in it is some kind of knowing that is informing him and that is reinforced by all of the experiences that he gets with the inner figures that he meets that integrity is is something that is not achieved by writing the super-ego and getting on top it's not an uber mention that sense it's not it's not an over drive of a kind of super expansion of consciousness but rather it's by bringing what reason can know and control and do in a very real connection to what it can't do what it can't know what its incapacity later as he gets to psychological types he's going to call this the inferior function and he's going to make clear in a variety of places that it is not through the superior functions of the ego that the soul is found but through the inferior function there's a tradition in Jungian psychology for those of you who like myself study type a lot psychological types that in a man psyche specifically the anima carries the inferior function and certainly the anima figure that young meets Salome is in every sense to his conscious attitude an inferior woman she is she was already notorious in the fender siècle world particularly through the play of Oscar Wilde for not only asking on that the hessed of her mother her odious that Herod for whom she had danced and was interested in whatever Salome wanted for whatever he wanted in return to be and so in that sort of a mayor jean harlow situation Salome asks for the head of John the Baptist who had refused to kiss her and Wilde has her actually taking the head off the platter and saying I have kissed your lips John now I'm sorry I can't read this typologically as Jung did as feeling even inferior extraverted feeling I think the head the kiss the hands on the dance surely this is extroverted sensation and just as surely and we're putting myths on the table we're hoping to discard a lot of legends one of the legends I'd like to discard is that Jung sacrificed his hero and that Jung stopped being heroic at the time of the Siegfried dream he sacrificed being a hero in accord with the spirit of the times and in accord with a certain kind of project for young professional men one hind he sacrificed obviously a role of being a certain kind of general for Sigmund Freud but Jung didn't stop being a hero what do you about it what and he didn't give up the hero's journey he began to pursue it in earnest and in his own way and with his true self not his false self so I must interpret the red book as Jung returning to Anna rationality he had forsaken for and that's his term irrationality for that axis that is achieved when you unite introverted intuition and extroverted sensation and you just go for it because you know it and because it's there and you and you just simply experience it this irrational axis which has absolutely nothing to do with rational planning is never a good career move [Music] was exactly what young got into and he made an Hill a heroic journey down and an attorney down so the two things we need to say is it is a hero's journey but in a very different direction from the way the hero's journey had been conceived particularly in enlightenment times which was up and in this sense of high achieving and mastery which we get today in the sad spectacle of people in the Olympics pumping themselves up with drugs to keep up their performance this is something else entirely it's not an embrace of performance at all it's a brace of incapacity and a discovery as only a descent to an extraverted sensation reality could possibly have it enabled him to do an embrace of the reality of the psyche the psyche as a just so story what's actually there not what you think is there not not a set of concepts not a set of ideas but but what's actually there persons who they're so in this process he's establishing what in my own work much which is all a kind of footnote to Jung what what I call the spine of personality the basic integrity of being who you are and embracing the high of yourself and the low of yourself the superior and the inferior function and bringing them together and the change in his attitude towards salome his willingness to take the blind salome on and do something with her and helping and actually discovering that she can see and then finally is behind the entire project of the red book which is so new some dushanyi in another context recently this weekend had said to many of us is in so many ways a book that brings back the sensation values of books themselves with the pictures and the text and the calligraphy so that the whole thing radiates a sense of reality and this lovely connection of a spiritual intuition with a very embodied sensation it the book itself has immense integrity and that willingness to him to get there is precisely why we trust the account so much now in another sense Jung's pursuit of character is a set of characters that he meets and he discovers as Nietzsche did that the soul is multiple that in fact it's composed of many characters he meets many characters and I must say the red book would be is really as written a marvelous screenplay I love film I think the red book has some of the most entertaining lines and one of the best scenes is when at the beginning of the second book Libra secundus of Libra Novus young finds himself standing on the highest tower of a castle and he meets and and he's wandering over the countryside wearing a green garment and he looks in the distance and sees a red point out there and it comes closer and closer and sure enough it's probably the devil it's the red one and the red one meets him and says I greet you men on the high tower I saw you from afar looking and waiting you're waiting has called me and Jung says who are you and the red one says Who am I you think I'm the devil do not pass judgment perhaps you can also talk to me without knowing who I am what sort of superstitious fellow are you that immediately you think of the devil and so they have a bit of a dialogue and at a certain point the red one young and the red ones start to quarrel the red one says you're truly a good diviner of riddles you're doing better than many others who have totally mistaken me and Jung says you sound cool and sneering have you never broken your heart over the holiest mysteries of the Christian religion and the red one says you're an unbelievably ponderous and serious person are you always so urgent and it goes on to quite a lot of interesting material which I wish I had time to read you but I advise you all to read it's a very funny dialogue between a rather priggish rather pious introverted feeling Christian yarn the red the red one actually questions yo he said yeah you sound a bit anti-semitic and he said oh no I'm not exactly anti-semitic but you anyone can see that something's missing in the Jews they haven't had a certain you could tell where it all is with young that he imagines as a Christian pastor's son who understands the mystery of the sacrifice that possibly of the crucifixion that possibly the Jewish people have missed that spiritual mystery and therefore don't get something about how hard life is this is a guy who had a lot to learn and the inner figures were working with him on it hard that kind of down your nose kind of boyish prayer I'll kind of introverted feeling needed an extraverted feeling read one to kind of take it on I see what Jung's work on feeling as taking place around what dr. Hillman got us to recognize as the problem of the Porat Ernest the problem of the lofty above it all young man a kind of idealism that actually can be a superior kind of unearned superiority and I feel that it's wonderfully helped by this encounter with the trickster the devil there's another corresponding encounter with a figure called the anchorite who is identified with a certain ammonius or ammonius is the name given in the in the book but actually he seems much like st. Anthony in the desert in fact that that association is even brought up and there the anchorite is very hard who lives alone and thinks every aspect of Christian doctrine over and over again and has worked hard on on his ideas he's trying to tell young something that young really needs to know about what it means to know something and I'll just take a little snippet of that the anchorite says young says to the anchor right after he says something that makes sense to me but I confess that this view is surprising to me it's especially astonishing to me that you a Christian anchorite have come to such views I would not have expected this of you and Young says and at the anchorite says to young as I've already noticed you have a completely false idea of me and my essence let me give you a small example of my preoccupation I've spent many years alone with the process of unlearning have you ever unlearned anything well then you should know how long it takes and I was a successful teacher as you know for such people to unlearn is difficult or even impossible but I see that the Sun has gone down I think that's a very funny moment and very good in the screenplay that would be the end of the enlighten that happens right there in the red book soon it will be completely dark night is the time of silence I want to show you your place for the night I need the morning from my work but after midday you can come to me again if you like and then we will continue our conversation and again I can only give you snippets of what's absolutely fascinating in all of that now what we have on the one hand with the red one is irony and on the other hand with the anchorite with ammonius or as I prefer to think of him st. Anthony critical thinking the kind of thinking that goes inside and examines the ideas that's willing to unlearn what it thinks it knows so just as I can see an extroverted feeling in the red one I can see an introverted thinking in the anchorite which I think leads young to see that it is necessary to overcome the arrogance of explanation that flirts with reduction how disappointing it would have been if s has often thought all young did was provide an alternative knowing psychoanalytic theory to Freud's knowing psychoanalytic theory if that's all Jung did it's really not worth the trouble to learn yet another one the precise thing Jung did was to unlearn to unthink to stop using that enlightenment extroverted thinking that always seems to know everything where they're still looking for a theory of everything and that's the one that Jung is getting past when he sees how hard it is even for a Christian Saint all alone on the desert to feel that he knows anything about his ideas that leads toward what I think is the place that character really becomes conscience in the red book and he really can deliver on what his integrity is leading him toward and that is a sense of limitation a trumpet the the thing that was missing in the ambitious project is the idea that there really are intense limits to what can be achieved and these limits are not just the limits of what can be thought and known but it's also the limits of what empathy and feeling can do just as much because I see just as much of an inflation perhaps even more in the therapeutic movement today as to what empathy and intersubjectivity and acceptance can do now for Jung this was all tied up with his Christian attitude of acceptance and accepting everything so when you see as you get farther into the Book of Libra secundus and the chapter called the three prophets these in the dialogue with Salome you begin to see how much the soul of CG Jung has integrated first the irony of the trickster and then the sense of limitation of the old man the Cenex latin for old man figure who's in touch with these limits just as much as they are the limits of life itself how much this is now part of the soul so here he is having a talk she plunged into the darkness like a shot and from the depths she called out will you accept what I bring Jung I will accept what you give I do not have the right to judge or to reject so listen says the soul there's old armor and the rusty gear of our fathers down here murderous leather trappings hanging from the warm eaten Lance shafts twisted spear heads broken arrows rotten shield skulls the bones of man and horse old cannons catapults crumbling firebrand smashed Assault gear stone spear head stone clubs sharp bones chipped arrowhead teeth everything the battles of your have littered the earth with we accept all this I accept it you know better my soul I find painted soul stones as the soul can't carved bones with magical signs talismanic sayings on Hanks of leather and small plates of lead dirty pouches filled with teeth human hair and fingernails tempers lashed together black orbs moldy animal skins all the superstitions hatched by dark prehistory will you accept all this young I accept at all how should I dismiss anything this is moving toward Fuhrer psychotherapeutic us that I see in some of my colleagues where it's just anything that's anything that's done that just nothing is wrong just tell me I will accept nothing human is alien to me and then worse what happens meant to people fairly far along in spirituality sometimes an enormous spiritual inflation an ambition a tremendous ambition now that I found the inner world I'm going to accept all of it I'm going to integrate the entire collective unconscious so on he goes I accept it all huh Shia dismiss anything and she says but I find worse fratricide cowardly mortal blows tortured child sacrifice the annihilation of whole peoples arson betrayal war rebellion will you also accept this so this if it must be says young how can I judge the soul society mcc's natural catastrophe sunken ships razed cities frightful feral savagery famines human meanness and fear whole mountains of fear lose meaning to sound like our lives today when we read the paper and young so shall it be since you give it see this is the problem the soul is supposed to deliver the collective unconscious the Animus the mediator to the unconscious young has this idea that now that he's found the soul the soul is going to give him everything and all he has to do is accept it so the power problem of the hero is not really past at all the spiritual inflation of the poor is not past at all but he's got a soul who's been paying attention to the very drama the text elsewhere tells us that she orchestrated to educate young eventually it becomes clear that she's behind the whole book it's very much like a postmodern novel where sooner or later the characters argue about who wrote the novel now she says and this is the most interesting moment in the red book for me the most interesting moment of all and there are many wonderful moments but this is for me the most wonderful she says I find the treasures of all past cultures magnificent images of God's spacious temples paintings papyrus rolls sheets of parchment with the characters of bygone languages books full of lost wisdom hymns and chants of ancient priests stories told on the ages through thousands of generations and Young says that is an entire world whose extent I cannot grasp how can I accept it that's the moment when I know that young is not psychotic that's the moment when I know young is not just another pretty face or an also-ran that is a moment of a man who's taken the limit in the limit of what he can take aboard that's the moment for me when young becomes someone I would still want to follow the example of she says but you wanted to accept everything you do not know your limits can you not limit yourself and Young says I must limit myself who could ever grasp such wealth and she says be content and cultivate your garden with modesty now what other book comes to mind that has an Anabaptist and a garden and a man who wants to explain and accept everything yes indeed and did young young the great man who discovered the irrational axis of psyche and put it at an equal level for consciousness with the rational axis owned his own intuition owned his sense of the realities of psyche neglect that background not at all and kept a bus to Voltaire in his waiting room and never forget it thanks [Music] thank you so much John I think it's fitting that we end our session today with a man whose father was one of the people that Jung gave his red book to to read during his lifetime Tom Kirsch graduated from male Yale Medical School he was the son of two unions union therapists he was a resident in psychiatry at Stanford Medical School and then was a consultant with the National Institute of Mental Health so didn't you raise your hand when he asked who was here from ni mhm forty years ago I think it counts his Union training began in Zurich and was completed in San Francisco he's past president of the Union stitute of San Francisco and past vice president and two-term president of the International Association for analytical psychology and in that capacity he lectured all over the world and helps promote analytical psychology in developing areas including Russia South Africa Mexico Australia and China his publications include the unions a social history of the union movement and the co-editor ship of initiation reality of an archetype he's currently serving as the consulting editor for the correspondence between young and his father and he's working on a memoir his major areas of interest are the analysis of dreams the history of analytical psychology the life and work of Jung and the analytical relationship and I have asked him as a kind of pre script or PostScript to talk about his own encounters with Jung so help us welcome Tom Kirsch [Applause] [Music] Thank You Betty soon as the last speaker today I have the opportunity to make a couple of comments that have from some of the pasts either questions or speakers first of all I would like to add a little bit to what John said that young when when the anchor right or the devil asked young about joy is that if you look at pictures of young before the red book and after the red book there's a scent you there's a sense of joy that has that you see in young face which much sterner look prior to to going through that experience the second thing is there was a question about the phases of the purposes of Union analysis and I still I feel that that's an important enough question that there are two places that young writes about that that I'm very familiar with one in modern man in search for soul and he divides the process of therapy into four stages the first one is catharsis where you tell your problem the second is an analysis of the infantile psyche which he would equate with the psychoanalytic phase the third phase he calls education which is the which he would roughly equivalent to odd lers the sense of orientation power adaptation and that the fourth phase is then of transformation individuation which would be his own unique addition to the role of psychotherapy and I don't have time to go into that in detail but it is a very they're all those fields all those the four phases can be intermingled in one session so it's not something consecutive secondly there is in the introduction to psychology and alchemy he has a series of nine and possible endings for psych for analysis the first is he says a piece of good advice or the some small interpretation which then the patient feels better then he talks about again about the psych psychoanalytic phase the infantile psyche and then he talks about having some successful thing happens such as a marriage divorce finishing college or something like that that that these are particular ending points that he puts forward different phases of therapy or the relief of symptoms and he makes a particular point that symptoms can often stay a long time as one's in therapy with the idea of kind of causing a stir to keep people kind of going on in the process and then he gets he talks about a religious conversion and also transformation and I like this particular evaluation or typical ending points because when I have a client it helps me to see it when a when we're at what phase you know that not everyone goes all the way in fact at this point I find that most of the people don't go that far along but it's still it gives me a sense of where they are when when we're talking about termination so anyway I wanted to add those two little vignettes I must say it's a great honor to be here and I think this is a as others have said this is a very important event for young and analytical psychology to have this event here at the Library of Congress is a validation on a collective level that there has been a real sea change in the in the collective in the psyche of the collective and I am thinking back of the first now all deceased first generation of young'uns in the United States who have who pioneered analytical psychology at a time when Freud and psychoanalysis were in their in their halcyon days and I I just like to mention the founders in the different cities in San Francisco Elizabeth Whitney Johanna Joseph Henderson and Joe wheelwright in New York Esther Harding Eleanor butene Christine man and Francis wicks and I would also again here like to mention Phillips of risky because I think he's played such an important role in having this event happen and then also my parents James and Hilda Kirsch and and Max seller in Los Angeles they all toiled in relative anonymity at times than when there was a tremendous hostility it was like between the Hatfield and the McCoys I mean you couldn't be in the same room now this came also this is an addition that I came yesterday is I went looking through the exhibit and I saw that cover of Time magazine in 1950 five in February 1955 Young was on the cover of Time magazine with a long article and at the time I was a sophomore in college and I it was the first time that I really had a sense that what my parents were doing had some validation in in the world at large and it's actually quite a good article I still have the whole copy of that magazine and I little did I know I'm just going to mention it in passing is that summer I was in Europe and developed appendicitis and my my mother was in Zurich and she I was in England she flew me to Zurich and I had my appendix Wieck whisked out under and ether but it's while I was recovering I had the opportunity she snuck me into the receiving line of Young's 80th Young's 80th birthday at the Grand Hotel told her and young actually liked that quite a bit and something that haunts her knee who is not here today mentioned last night the memory a memory of his to when he was a 10 year old was the warm handshake of his grandfather and that is the thing I took away from that meeting with him and it's it's stuck with it's the first time I've heard anyone else talk about that particular because it wasn't the warmest handshake I've ever received in my life and I think it's lasted me a lifetime so and I did have two other opportunities to visit young the next year my father and I went out for a tea just after Emily several months after Emma had died and we and we were sitting out in the garden it's interesting I had just reading two essays on analytical psychology and Jung is talking about all knowledge being relative and I very impertinent Lee said well that's an absolute statement which he then he he had a good time with it he made you know he kind of patted me on the head so to speak symbolically and anyway that was the that's what I took away from that meeting then the third meeting I had was was in 1958 my father and I I'd by that time I had already gotten into the soup and I knew I needed it and I started my analysis in Zurich and I was actually living in an apartment with my father who was teaching at the Institute and on the a layoff I called and said well professor Jung can see you on this Friday morning and he said well I have to teach at the Institute I can't get out of that and he said could my son come and take my place instead so so she called you know she called back and said Oh professor you would be very glad to see your son again that's fine so I went out I got prepped what I was supposed to say my analyst told me what dreams to bring because he said he said young right now is interested he's writing this chap you know of this paper on or monograph on the on flying saucers and you have this dream with these two intersecting circles and I think you own would be very interested in seeing that so I've more nervous than I am today believe me I went out there and I I walked in the door and the first thing that young said to me was so you want to see the old man before he dies hmm and I guess I said yes so honestly I can't Ben I've told the story to a group psycho biography group I'm part of and they they cannot believe that I can't remember anything else from that session but I can't that's just a fact so anyway those are my introductory remarks I went long on longer than I thought you know this program this session started when Betty Sue said this should be called self analysis right and so that's what we were supposed to do initially and with the idea being that in Freud's interpretation of dreams was a partial self analysis of of himself and that that the red book is self analysis for Jung now we decided we would change the title and you can see that John's paper is different and so what I decided to do was to call this my my part kind of the Jung's encounter with the unconscious and it's gonna be a very simple paper I'm not gonna I'm not I'm not going to do some intricate interpretation I'm just going to start with a dream that most of you know which is from Jung's memories dreams reflections where he said where the dream he has when he's four years old and he says I'm going the dream where he's in a meadow where he discovers a dark rectangular stone lined hole in the ground he descends to the bottom enters a rectangular chamber where he seized a platform with a golden throne and in this throne was a pillar like tree trunk 12 to 15 feet high and made of skin and flesh and at the very top was a single eye gazing motionlessly upward then his mother's voice calls out quote yes just look at him that is the man-eater unquote now only decades later did he realize that this was a ritual phallus he could never decide where the emphasis should be in his mother's voice if it was on that it meant that the ritual phallus would devour the Lord Jesus and everything else if the emphasis was on the man-eater then it meant that the ritual phallus Lord Jesus and the Jesuit whom young had feared earlier were the same this dream represents or demonstrates I mean young only began to talk about this dream you know in his 60s I mean he kept this quiet that for young his inner life was important from a very very early age and his concerns were of a profoundly spiritual nature even at that time and according to young the phallus of the dream seemed to be a subterranean God not to be named and such it remained throughout his youth through this early dream young experienced the secrets of the earth he descent he described it as quote an initiation into the realm of darkness on my intellectual life had its unconscious beginnings at that time unquote it is important that we understand the link Jung makes between intellect a powerful conscious function with an unconscious source now we've heard something about Jung's biography and I'm not going to say much to go over that just to say that we're talking about 1913 when young the with as John Beebe so eloquently said had become a world-famous psychiatrist and and and Jung says that about himself that he had everything in his life everything was going well and he had the you know the breakup with Freud had occurred now in the fall of 1913 Jung took a train ride to Schaffhausen this is the home of his of his in-laws also our daughter happened to spend a year in schaffhauser so we know that train ride and on this short journey he began to have the spontaneous visions which he wrote down and these in the black books and these visions and continued until April 1914 at which time they seemed to spontaneously stop and then we've heard about the repeated dreams of flood of blood flooding all of northern Europe stopping just at the Alps he thought he was losing his mind but when World War one broke out in on August 1st and somehow he was relieved now I must say if I had a patient who came in and told me about a dream like this I would I would say well maybe this is kind of crazy you know I mean I am I really going to be predicting future you know be prophetic but anyway during these turbulent times both personally and collectively I think this is it hasn't been emphasized here today but most of us know it that young there was no break in Young's family life and you know he he continued to see patients he was quite there for his family he he did his Swiss Army Duty and during the war war years he you know that every Swiss I can't remember under fifty five or something I mean you or se has to spend two or three weeks a year in the service in the army and Young was no exception and he fulfilled his obligation as a commandant not of a prisoner of war camp but of British internees these were British officers who had escaped the conflict in France or Belgium and and found their way into Switzerland and they had actually a pretty good time at this camp and young did many drawings money many of the mandalas that that are in the red book you know are there he did there plus he saw many some of his patients some of his favorite patients or came to see him at in chateau de now we have this wonderful introduction that so neshama Dasani made which really contextualizes and Orient's us towards the red book and he tells us that these original fantasies that were done in that very short period have undergone a number of Corrections and additions over many years afterwards and that that he's mythical considerable time you know doing doing the calligraphy which is what we have in this edition of the red book and just to mention that them drawing and painting of the mandalas was a way of centering himself and furthering the development of an new attitude towards the unconscious and I think that's a very important thing and I must say that when I first entered analysis the idea of drawing and of drawing Mondelez was a very that was of value and a virtue that as a union patient you ought to be doing and I must say that that didn't come naturally to me and I think it didn't come naturally to a lot of other people as well and we have thankfully moved beyond that but I think what what is important is that mice's and I want to mention it here is that what we what I find in the red book is that it gives this is Young's journey and I also see it as a it frees me to have my own journey which can be very different from Jung's journey and I don't think that's been mentioned here today and I think that's a very important thing so that we don't all feel like we have to go out of here and start drawing mandalas and think that we're all you know that that's going to be our individuation and I'm not trying to put that down but that's just not all of our way okay now well what we've all said is that that in the red book young rediscovers the soul it realizes that the ambition for his psychiatric career has lost interest for him that he has connected with the image of Elijah as a figure of wisdom as well as connecting with Salome the blind daughter and he is also introduced to the magician Philemon who later becomes a guru for young he has decisive conversations with Philemon which changed his orientation from its previous trajectory to one where the primordial images the collective unconscious archetypes are given the deepest sense of reality and meaning and then he gives the name act of imagination which parents told us about where the dimmed ego makes contact with these inner figures and realizing how much this had helped young in his own individual development he recommends this practice for analysis and it becomes a standard method of in union oriented analysis now Jung wrote little scientific work between 1913 and 1918 most of what he was writing during this time it did not get published during this his lifetime except for the first essay of two essays and which the first essay was originally published in French it then comes out that the two essays come out as a as a book in 1928 but some one other paper is the transcendent function written in 1916 was rediscovered in the early 1950s and finally published in 1957 and the transcendent function essay is important because young discusses here for the first time in in psychological scientific language what he had been going through in his visions an act of imagination in this essay he writes about the tension of the opposites between the conscious and unconscious and how one needs to hold them in abeyance until a third leading to and I'm like Jim Hjelm and this is paragraph 189 a living birth that leads to a new level of B a new situation this is in volume 8 this formulation of an approach to the unconscious was the beginning of a radically different approach to that of Freud's that's we've heard a lot about today - whereas Freud's unconscious through free association went back in time to decipher the childhood pieces that had been repressed which was basically a left hemisphere rational function Jung through the development of the transcendent transcendent function found a level in the unconscious which brought in new images the potential for wisdom and he invoked the right hemisphere all of Jung's subsequent writings have amplified this other layer of the unconscious which you know alternately has called the collective unconscious with its archetypal images sometimes the objective psyche at the same time you'll always held I'm sorry about 200 to be different than Jim Hillman to hell that the ego must have an equal voice in the equation and that one listen not only to one side or the other but to both an equal measure the essay on the transcendent function was the beginning of Jung's scientific language for the experiences which he had undergone in the red book now the red book and the 7-7 thermals the dead are prime examples of material which were only published after his death these are highly personal documents they're there like a personal diary which Jung was extremely ambivalent about publishing and I know that young son Franz Young was adamant about not publishing the red book and must say that I am also at times not entirely comfortable reading certain parts of the red book because the material is so highly personal and I sometimes feel like an intruder into his personal psyche I feel that I have no business there on the other hand I am fascinated to read much of the material although it is it's heavy you know you can't stay with it too long at one time on the other hand the red book has been in the background seemingly forever as the source of all of Young's most important scientific contributions what Young says about the unconscious and the red book becomes the basis for all his later writings and observations he continued to work on the text and draw mandalas until 1928 when he was given the secret of the golden flower a Chinese alchemical Taoist texts and asked to comment on it by Richard Vilhelm when he saw the secret of the golden flower he realized that his isolate that his period of isolation with these mandalas had ended and that that he had found some comparative material he found in alchemy that he transferred this from Chinese alchemy into Western alchemy and he found in alchemy the parallel to many of the dreams of modern man and women furthermore I think that if he had stayed with the red book he might have well ended up in a dead end he might have been a curmudgeon II old fellow which he was not his individuation needed to find new source material for his continuing researches into the objective layers of the psyche and that is what he did with alchemy thank you [Music] before we throw this open to the floor for the remaining ten minutes of our time together which I find to be very precious do have do you either of you have anything to say to each other we have a lot to solve well Tom Tom it was my first Jungian friend and my teacher when I was a resident in psychiatry and so I'm gonna be father to the Father for just one minute just to correct I think that fallow period is less fallow than you one might have thought and the more we get from Philemon the more we put together the pieces the richer it appears there was the book contributions to analytical psychology and even the seven sermons to the Dead was published privately as you know by Watkins in about 1917 so in actual addition that but there was a very private kind of thing for a long time it was only given to certain people but it was around a little more than a red book well-grounded even that was given to some so it's a complicated story that we're still unpacking sure what young wrote and when I just wanted to say that you know we can footnote that endlessly but I did want to not sure he was remarkably productive during that period and given what we sometimes thought about the breakdown of young even Ellenberger sympathetic creative illness boy for an old man who just got a lot better so that makes me think he wasn't an ill man so I want to just say that hey a chance to say something and we have okay here's one over here I don't know how far oh here's it's let me go here first because there's a there's a microphone near there and then you're next yeah this is for dr. Bini oh yes hi hi I'm a writer and I have you know some background in terms you were referring to capacity and I'm interested if you were referring to negative capacity in in capacity with I n capacity which are not good at what you don't do well as young once said my relation to reality was never particularly brilliant he said in an interview and that's that's that extroverted sensation would be his incapacity that he embraces to produce this case remarkable book relinquishing rational well that's somewhat that's a little different it's it's the coat it's empathy we would say nowadays it's the amazing ability that a great artist but also a great psychotherapist has to put aside wherever you've been and Jung believed this as a technique he said the way to do therapy is just to let the psyche of the patient wash over you and put aside all of your preconceptions actually I prefer what RD Laing once said about when someone asked how do you do psychotherapy said it's so simply he said I make myself vulnerable and see what happens but he actually said at the beginning of the answer he said I don't know and he said I make myself vulnerable and I see what happens I've never heard it better said and Lang knew about Jung so he had already embraced what Jung did in this moment when he so that that's now empathy is a little different because negative capability is also a fantastic capability to get into the space of another as a poet needs to to take on the subjects they take on they're able to and so I think that it's why I wouldn't want to I wouldn't want to they're cousins but they're different they're different cousin sympathy thank you a woman over here too I guess we're making our way over there the side this side now yeah go ahead don't repeat it oh you have to okay go ahead yeah go next I just have a quick just a short suggestion and then my question the suggestion is that I I would find it very useful to have the English portion of the red book published separately as a paperback because the book even though I love having the large book is so beautiful it's very difficult to manage so that's just you know the question is what would Carl Jung say to a girl named Alice who came in with a dream of Wonderland how would he interpret what would what would Carl Jung say to the girl named Alice who came in with the dream of Wonderland [Laughter] No I'm not taking that one on I think we have time to go down that hole well he did John we can get back there but there's someone here with it I've never read anything by a young about Alice in Wonderland but I can't believe he would have agreed if you know the author Louis Carroll or dogs and the mathematician had come to see him I wonder what if they have and if there had been a consultation if it's so hard to believe young would have endorsed that moment when Alice says you're nothing but a pack of cards that that wasn't Jung's attitude toward the unconscious I don't know what one is supposed to do with the English psyche but Jung would have found a better way than that I say go ahead doctor Bibi for the connection with what's a different and a completely revolutionary spin on the concept of the midlife crisis yeah it's kind of enforced incapacity well you know there's a remarkable thing that happens in midlife which is tied up with Jung's anima animus theory which can get awfully criticized correctly when it's used as a theory of love or it's used in a very rigid gender linked way so that women can't have an anima and men can't have anonymous as if men didn't have anonymous all the time and women don't have anima all that stuff about but if you remember the typological piece it really is interesting how in midlife the anima and animus come up and the values there become more important than those that had been present before this is actually someone once said it's an Iroquois culture there is a there is an understanding that women have women's dreams and men have men's dreams but after the age of 40 so said the tradition the men start to have the women's dreams and the women start to have the men's dreams and typologically you really see the inferior function coming up at midlife and a Tom's father used to say he didn't pay much attention to typology in analysis until the inferior function came up and then you would pay very close attention and it's amazing how much that becomes a project such as Young's Building Bowl engine you know a physical hands-on constructive project was how he went on from the constructive project of the red book and that became vital to his to his individuation at that age and time and his son France who worked on it with him and actually became an architect said you know goal engine was no architectural masterpiece I mean Young was not exactly skilled and precise in the way he built but he took it on and he wanted to take it on and he collected people to work with him and his son was one of them and that would be linked I think to letting your incapacity come up and see what you can do with it and what the amazing thing some of us find is that we become terribly capable in a new sense because the energy of the unconscious joins it and and befriends the effort to develop that which we hadn't been terribly good at all along but it still stays in inferiority it's like it transforms into super competence but it it's a it's very wonderful what people do in the second half of life that's what I want to say he also said God in the devil in enter by the same door that inferior function door so that that to happen second half right von France says the inferior function is the door through which the figures of the unconscious walk enter so you could not have had the transcendent function without some connections your inferior function and that I think is very important to the development of people I think before we lose our capacity to be here maybe we have one more question just one word - what I don't know where okay is there is there a question near a microphone okay go ahead can you hear me yes just one word - what Kerr said about the period between 1913 and 1918 and that young didn't publish any important work in that period I'd like to draw your attention to one of his I think most important works which is the psychology of unconscious processes which he wrote in 1916 and published in 1917 right and I'd still recommend that booklet to anyone who would like to become a quaint and acquainted with Jung and his ideas as one of the books does Dartmouth wasn't that the one in French that you mentioned oh that's as separate but we only gave an Aberdeen C in fact he was an Aberdeen at the time of World War one started and he had to find had to win in EM I had to wind their way back by train back to Switzerland and his World War one was already [Music] I need to cut this off but who Jim Hudson who had a lot foo this you want to have last word or shall we just acknowledge you with yes unless people want to spend the weekend in the library I suggest you this has been a presentation of the Library of Congress visit us at loc.gov this has been a presentation of the Library of Congress visit us at loc.gov

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Length: 160min 22sec (9622 seconds)

Published: Wed Aug 07 2013