Intense Debate With A Mormon

right disciples I got a bit of a GB Nick that's a joke pastor but he have the real message of truth we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not what's up guys welcome back to another episode of apology of radio coming at you guys from Phoenix Arizona right now from apologia Studios joined in studio today with some by some very special guests right now if you guys want to get more you can go to apologia studios.com apologia studios.com and you can get more their television shows radio shows podcasts and after shows an apology Academy so make sure you guys go there and check it out grateful for you guys all to be with us right now live we are doing a live stream today apologia radio with our special guests and we'll encourage you if you watching this right now to share this across your social media platforms and I'll let everyone know so I'll introduce our guests right now one you know very very well he is dr. James white with Alpha and Omega ministries you guys know him very very well been on our show many many times encourage you guys to go to ayo men dot o-r-g to get more dr. white welcome to the show good to be here and our very special guests who flew all the way out from Salt Lake City yeah to be with us in Arizona I got a spur dress real fast what's the difference in weather right now between Salt Lake and in Phoenix Salt Lake feels beautiful right now it does any Knicks feels like a sauna yeah in Hades it's very good it's very very good so uh special guest today from Salt Lake City honored to have him with us today we were able to get him out and I flew in yesterday and leaving actually turning back around this afternoon and his name is Kwai ku actually you have a number of names to tell the truth but quake is one of them you might might have a very long name but i quake uu l and you I'm I I do the show three Mormons however I can't represent three Mormons right just because the other host we we have different views on things so I'm here representing myself as a latter-day Saint yes yeah and we're great grateful to have not a Mormon anymore out of you or not out of fact what are you gonna do with the name the shell so I want to call it three Saints but um that seems to Catholic but maybe that's a trick you know joining but honestly it just depends on we know what the further announcements are if they say hey you know if Mormon newsroom and Motown he really might close to almost sounding like a revelation the Lord impressed upon my heart that was well he's the prophet you go so I think it was a serious and an important distinction because we're not Mormons and the Book of Mormon has a beautiful passage or talks about you know the name of the church and if it's named after Moses Moses church so we're not Mormons Church guys ain't gonna be able to use any nicknames at all it's just a shame well when they go change but what do you do with Mormon org like isn't it here's what I think this is this is Quakers prediction okay that is based off of nothing but myself but they may change the name of it but they'll keep the hyperlink so you just type in Mormon title or it'll just redirect you to whatever the new right so we can just keep all those things and that's just I think my prediction is two years from now we're going I remember that yeah I forgot yeah yeah because that's what happened right before it happened before write it yeah I did happen before well at any rate so we had a little bit a little bit of interaction a couple of weeks ago where dr. white and I responded to some of the comments made on the three Mormons show and so as a result of that we were able to make a connection and I just want to say to you that I am very very grateful for you being here I consider it an honor but I also highly respect someone like yourself traveling all the way to Phoenix to come and to be on this show with with Christians who have critiqued what you have said I mean this truly and I've say this often I believe flattery is a sin so I want you to know how I feel about this I think it's very respectable and really a glorious thing that you're willing to come all the way out here to be on the show with us to discuss these important issues because of what I've tended to see over the last 20 years is a shift away from the kind of thing that you're willing to do which is to engage with other believers and to get down to the mat and to talk about these things I've seen a lot of the younger Mormons unwilling to do the sorts of courageous things that you're doing right now so even in the midst of my very very violent disagreements with your theology I want you to know that I have a great deal of respect and honor for you and and for the fact that you're here today so well thank you for letting me come on and actually I wanted to touch on that just on the the latter-day saints not wanting to talk sometimes with evangelicals I actually talked about this right before it came and people want to know why I think the the reason is people don't start off conversations in a reasonable usually so online if you'll see all have people who a message and I'll be like hey listen you magic underwear we're in cultist why don't you and they go why don't respond and they're like well why aren't you responding to me so I think a lot of the times if people start out in a way that's just silly of course no one's gonna want to have a dialogue so you have to start out with let's just talk and I think even in some of the comments sections of the post about and that were advertising this some of the people were like saying some things that were kind of wacky and I'm saying well that right there that's usually why latter-day saints don't come and do these sort of shows social social media has poisoned everything but there has been a major change because I I started going out to the Moyna temple before you were born and the young men who were 13 or 14 years of age would come up to me and want to discuss Bible passages on the plurality of gods yeah that doesn't happen today and there there were 3.7 million members back then a whole lot more now I've seen a huge development and change in that time period that you couldn't possibly have seen but I've seen I've seen it and if it makes you feel any better being in the lion's den I've been on Katie KK radio in studio in Salt Lake City with a Mormon attorney as the host to BYU professors across the table from me and every caller was a Mormon so I I've done the same thing up in up in Salt Lake's you're done well you know I think just comes down to two things well one generations are just different than each other it's not like it just people emphasize different things but I don't know if I fully agree because I'll talk to people I know at BYU and I know most of my friends are young latter-day saints and we talk about plurality of gods we talk about eternal aggression and you know God being exalted things like that I don't think it's gone away we talked about on our show and it comes up probably every single day so I at least in my experience in 2018 being a young latter-day saint and doing a show for young latter-day saints it comes up quite a bit I don't think it's gone not at all I'm not saying that the doctrine isn't going I'm saying is the discussion I think it's a discussion of it it's we used to literally have a line of people waiting to talk to us outside the General Conference you almost have to trip people to get them to talk with you anymore well that's the thing so that's change I bet I bet if you if you went up the next General Conference and you you just you you weren't grouped in with the crazy people with the signs that's that's sort of impossible if because they are there Oh believe me well I go oh you're one of them I was there I was there the first year they showed up so I we had done it for 18 years you've been you've been made weird bedfellows with them even though you've got nothing even though they hate us actually more than they yeah you guys so we've had run-ins with them but anyways that's neither here nor there Jeff you're you're you're in charge yeah okay yeah so so that what we wanted to do was do something we talked just a bit yesterday that would be beneficial for our hearers so we thought it'd be good to to leave aside the peripheral things that the non-essential things and just focus in upon the core so dr. white and I chatted a bit about you know what might that looked like what might really touch and then when we spoke yesterday you you talked about all the same things those are the main issues so the issues of authority Scripture the authority of Scripture who is God how does someone come to know God but all that obviously comes down to authority what's your foundation and so I think that we can probably try to circle around those as the main issues questions about God is God an exalted man who is a as a resurrected man who has a God before him who had a God before him is there potential for human beings to go through the process of exaltation and become gods and goddesses themselves and is that what the Bible teaches is that anywhere close to the biblical definition of God and description of God is that how God's disclosed himself to us and the other thing of course is the gospel itself so I think we should probably start there the question of authority so I'll let whoever wants to start maybe bring in the started the discussion yeah well let me just put this on the table we can go from there I'm looking at Isaiah chapter 44 verse 6 and there's two directions we can go from this so let me just just put it out there thus says Yahweh now I know that you have a quad over there and so you've got a King James Version of Bible I have the Hebrew in front of me at the moment and the name Jehovah of course is lor D and all caps in the King James Version the Bible I'm sure you're aware of that thus says Jehovah the king of israel and his redeemer Yahweh Jehovah of hosts I am the first and I am the last and besides me there is no Elohim now we can go to directions with this first is the consistent testimony of scripture to the fact that there is only one God Yahweh Elohim that both those terms are used of one one deity 535 times as a joint name in the Old Testament or we can go depending on what your personal perspective is as to whether why after the 2700 years these words would be authoritative to us in other words fundamental question of the preservation of these words in the original language translation into the English language are these do these words remain normative for the Christian in this age or is there an authority above these words and I think we can go either either direction I think they're both fruitful and are both relevant to the issue yeah well one I want to say you have a voice like a nice cup of warm milk it is it is very soothing in other words you fell asleep halfway through that's okay I get it yeah I grew up doing radio okay I've got from the time I was 15 here's I think the issue isn't isn't translation it isn't it is into the transmission of it I think that you're approaching it from a perspective of of Middle Ages European revisionist history of an ancient Semitic culture and that's that's an issue I see and I see that issue from our evangelical brothers and sisters all the time it's very common to take passages in Isaiah and really all throughout the Old Testament even some of the New Testament where you know no gods beside me here o Israel the Lord our God is one Lord that mom yeah no I'm sorry there's ma ma yesterday Yahweh la Haine new yahoo Akkad I heard that the other day at every update but even like to see what you got when your did it but even so even you know in latter day scriptures hear o ye heavens and give ear o ye earth and rejoice the inhabitants thereof for the Lord is God beside him there is no Savior I think though the issue I see is that these scriptures are taken out of their ancient context the reality is and in the exam time period and in the surrounding cultures I can find I keep hitting this mic I can find quotes from other religions that use this exact same language and I'm sure you're both familiar with with a lot of Jewish scholarship that's very very clear especially in 2018 that the the Godhead or the nature of God and the idea of plurality of gods the way we see it with monotheism polytheism the the mainland Christian view of that topic is not the view they had in the biblical era it just isn't I think a good example is that you know of the the tale of Seanie from the Middle Kingdom there's about the Pharaoh uh sin war said hope I'm saying that the first he is a God without equal with none in existence preceding him the great cairo him diamond raw unique one like whom among the gods literally like whom of the gods you were the sole one who made all that exists one alone who made that which is singly unique without his second I mean you can go on and on and on you can find that the exact same language shown in the Bible of no gods beside me before we were after me is the exact same language these very clearly polytheistic societies from the same time period used that isn't a coincidence so they use the same language and we know that the Jews of the Old Testament were not monotheists in the way that we see it today really they just weren't yeah that's a very common mythology in scholarship but it's a mythology it's based upon a fundamental rejection of what you believe is latter-day Saint and that's what I find strange that people at BYU and things like that embrace our our forms of liberalism without recognizing that it's absolute poison to your fundamental belief how the Book of Mormon dr. Moreau your price because certainly Joseph Smith and the early leaders of church did not embrace the kind of documentary hypothesis based idea that allows you to a demise the text of the Old Testament and it's and say well it's sure there are there are some texts ala monotheistic but then you've got these over here and you can you don't have to take them as a whole oh that would end up destroying the reason for example why 17 chapters of The Book of Isaiah end up quoted almost verbatim from the King James Version of the Bible in the Book of Mormon yeah that was not the argument that's so at least of the early LDS Church they were not utilizing our German liberals as BYU is now so what has what has changed and I would just simply respond that believing Christian scholarship has answered that unbelieving skeptical scholarship and points out that for example quotations from Egyptian lore where the gods are derived from the created order is has to be a completely different context than if you take seriously the Tanakh the Torah the Nevi'im and the katha bhima's as a whole that what separates Yahweh from all the gods of the peoples is that he created all things in fact he says in Jeremiah chapter 10 if your God did not create the worlds and heavens then he'll will pass away from the worlds in the heavens so there is a huge chasm between having a God who is the source and origin of all things on having a god that you're saying is highly exalted but came out of these things no no so we're I'm not saying he came out of those things I'm saying that Egyptians did okay great well he III think there's a bit of a misrepresentation so I'm not saying nor they think early latter-day Saint leaders were saying that they're that these other gods you know are even real or or that they were actual gods I'm just know that we know that yeah I was a saint to work ok saying I don't understand why you would make reference because it's so important it's so important to do that because the quotes of the Bible when you look at them in their ancient context yes you see the exact language is used with surrounding culture so it isn't cool it is not a coincidence you have to look at that and say ok well if they're saying it this way no God forward me and we're saying these are monotheists but then these polytheists are saying the exact same thing what's the issue here why are they all employing this language what is the issue and there's nothing wrong with using that argument at all what is the issue the issue yeah is that the biblical teaching is that Yahweh creates all things were as these other religions teach that their gods were derived from the creation itself I think well I think that's offroad though and that's off-road of the context of the quotes itself if you because I'm saying your the idea ok there are no other gods only God alone that's it there's the only God that exists in the universe yeah but we're saying okay if this is true in the in if if the ancient context of that is matches exactly the later European what I call revisionist history of it then why on earth are other societies quoting and using that same language if they are polytheists we should see a big separation we know from history no no I mean with those quotes they would not employ that same language and we know from history again I say we know from history that the Jews of the Old Testament were not than monotheists in the American European sense of the word they just weren't we happen to know that they believe that there is only one true God a covenant boy and a lot but they believed in multiple no I believe that's completely wrong I don't I guess that's where we have to disagree I well well but but one of us can can allow all of the Old Testament scripture to speak as a harmony I can't yeah the the people that you are relying upon for this idea of inserting inserting polytheism into a monotheistic text do not believe that the Old Testament Scriptures are consistent you know what the graphical house in theory is I'm assuming I tell me so I'm just asking because it's fundamental basic it's fundamentally basic to understanding Old Testament scholarship that you are relying upon right now and see I long long ago I went to Fuller Theological Seminary which was way off to my left I was much more concerned California yeah well not not just left as in over there the left coast but theologically obviously to the left and so all of my Old Testament instruction was in this what you're quoting mm-hmm so I've read I know what the arguments are and and that's why I said from the beginning I find it odd that that latter-day saints would utilize this kind of stuff and in fact I will even make the assertion that I think it is the entrance of this world view through BYU into the mainstream of Mormonism that is resulting in the major changes that we're seeing right now and we'll see in the future well I think they were really where it's coming from well but those are three those are three different water balloons but the first one is that again I just have to disagree I think the Old Testament you of course we can we can be textual and we can look at what it's saying and I think it makes a very very clear obvious case that there is one god to us but ancient context the Jews did not deny the existence of several gods they made a covenant with one similar to what we do in the temple and I think that is verified by not only yes you can find left-leaning Christian scholarship and right-leaning but also the same in Judaism we can find left-leaning Jewish scholarship and right laying that confirm that this isn't just a Mormon conspiracy it is very well laid out and you know you may have discovered it in your college days you years and years ago I don't know how old you are probably 32 but you FRA but the reality is just because you and college looked at it doesn't mean that it's completely cast out it's it's very well documented that this is the historical case and I would venture to say it's a fact not to confuse you keep making the claim that it's just it's a fact and I'd like you to demonstrate that from the the text of the Bible can you demonstrate from the text of the Bible that the biblical God discloses himself as one God among a pantheon of gods and that he's part of some created order himself that he's not from eternity into eternity can you demonstrate that from the text of God's Word um one yes - I think there's an issue just with the question though because P I I think I think it's somewhat bizarre to say all right I want you to demonstrate this with a text and text alone and don't use any context oh no no no I I you made you've made several times you've made the claim that you could demonstrate that the biblical God falls into the same category as the Egyptian pantheon of gods so no no I don't do that it I don't believe that's not what I'm saying he falls into the same kind of category that you're saying that you can have the same polytheism in the scriptures of the Old Testaments no no Jews you said the Jews believe this yeah yes so the Jews believed in multiple gods you have a record of what they believed what God we do we have we have many records well we have a record in Scripture you do believe that that's Scripture yes can you demonstrate from Scripture that the biblical God has disclosed himself as one God among a pantheon of gods I mean I think there's very very strong arguments for the divine counsel can you Psalms 82 so okay so let's do that do you all right you just pull the text no let's let's let's go let's let's flip - so you want to go ahead and step in the Hebrew first I would just point out the the straight statement of the Psalter that I mentioned earlier I didn't get a chance to read it but Psalm 96 five four all the gods of the peoples are idols but Yahweh made the heavens this is what I'm trying to point out and that is that the key element that that just makes Yahweh distinct from the gods the people's first of all their idols they do not have any existence in and of themselves but that is the fact that yah 'we made the heaven right he is the one who made all things and III just think that it needs i no matter where we end up I'm hoping that before we get too far that we'll be able to get an an explanation for why it was that Yahweh through Jeremiah the Prophet gave to the people in exile who themselves are they're surrounded by people who do believe in the plurality of God's and they do believe that their gods came forth out of the created order notice what is then said and hopefully and I'll let you go to Psalm 82 from here but it says but Yahweh is the true God not a true God the true God he is the Living God the everlasting king at his wrath the earth quakes and nations cannot endure as it Ignatian thus you shall say to them so this is what believers are to say to polytheists the gods that did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and from under the heavens now it's fascinating is that in the original language this changes from Hebrew to Aramaic when it says thus you shall say to them changes language because that's the language of the people to whom they're gonna be speaking so what's amazing is here God in his condescension through the Prophet gives to his people the very words they're to say to the surrounding that the people that are inviting them to the worship of other gods the gods that did not make the heavens in the earth will perish on the earth from under the heavens I believe that this is going to be consistent with everything else and I believe it on the basis of Jesus Christ's testimony I oh I believe I believe it's consistent here's the issue do we have the false idols and the false gods of the Old Testament however we also have in the ancient context of the Bible the Jews believing in several gods and having a covenant with Yahweh alone so if you have to work with both you can't just pick one of the other you have to work with both even in the liberal perspective on that oh hey well let's not say it's a live I don't know okay because I think with high and feel the people who affirm that are not theologically liberal that's that I think that's a unfair you know stereotype to place on it if however you want to describe it in that perspective however the people who promote that do they or do they not say that those other gods were created by Yahweh the other gods in in if you're talking about if you talk about exalted beings if you're talking about like anything else those they being yes we're created by Yahweh right well of course a Heavenly Father created them what we call you know a Heavenly Father created these so this is not talking about any beings that are themselves uncreated only Yahweh is uncreated well this gets into the how we're using the word gods because if you if you want to examine the divine council you calls them God's sons of God's angels you mean you can really switch out whichever word you want to use the the the difference is we're talking about God's in the biblical sense of of the God who was walking in the Garden of Eden the God who is a man not the later very metaphysical God is an energy consciousness that's everywhere but isn't anywhere we're talking about the actual God of the Old Testament and New Testament and so the fact that you can have a Council of God's a group of people sitting if you will is completely consistent and also opened up the door to the understanding that there are there were multiple deities that the Jews recognized people but you keep saying you keep trying to limit this to covenant with one and yet three different passages now I've presented that base this view on the fact that Yahweh alone creates all things you don't believe that Yahweh alone created all things why don't I believe out because Elohim sent Jehovah and Michael down to organize the earth mm-hmm so Yahweh didn't debt alone it was seeing companies Michael well here's what I will say I will say to one I think we like to take the phrase of organized we think that's more and more of an honest sorry I will say I will say I because I'm not representing I'm representing me I will take the position that God organized matter and organize things and created things there was a matter that was already there we're not going at the X in the helo I don't think that's biblical I believe it most firmly is that I just doesn't that is one of our major issues then I want I need people understand this you do not believe that God can create matter I don't have an answer them I I think it's all who believe that God well we're going to matter you believe that God organized pre-existing matter in the words of Joseph Smith I believe that God organized pre-existing matter in intelligence not just because of Joseph Smith but because that's what the Bible teaches I think that's what the original Hebrew teaches very clearly not just Mormons believe a lot just latter-day saints believe that you'll find many many Jews who believe that exact same thing exactly and also don't believe the massage above Jesus so I'm not really sure why that would be the authority oh well here no no wait wait let's yes well they don't believe in Jesus cuz they're not Christians if they believe in Jesus they'd be Christians they're Jews I I do think though it's fair to say that Jewish scholars are should be trusted in regards to the Talmud the Old Testament I think I think we can rush the Talmud came 600 years I know I said two books I think you met the Tanakh no no Talmud an Old Testament I'm saying look at books Jewish literature Jewish Scripture I think we can trust Jewish scholars on that as well as Christian scholars so then I do not believe that the Old Testament exists separately from the new so we do not separate it out the the view it has of who God is what creation is has to be taken as Jesus taught us it's concealment and new yeah I just think that you have it wrong about what Jesus taught and that's totally fine because we're in different religions we are the original question I feel like this kind of varied well the way the way to test that though the way to test that though is to go to the words of Scripture and yes and Jesus that's where this has to be rooted yes you agree with that I agree as well it has to be rooted in Scripture and context okay no we of course would agree with that yeah I agree with you then any verse could be taken out of context and very much so used to say anything at all you said that in your debate with with Aaron yeah and I heard you say that you can anybody take a verse of the Bible and just make it say whatever they want my I believe you'd be doing that with Psalm 82 oh but I just want to just remind you you've from my perspective made some pretty audacious claims and you haven't documented any of them yet you've said things like the Jews we just know everybody knows that the Jews were polytheistic I didn't know no no I'm not saying that I'm not saying polytheism because those two God seems many it means many God polytheism monotheism both you know terms created by Philo of Alexandria which post-date the New Testament anyway the words have a particular Adam ology I would say more manometry I wouldn't say polytheism I would say it's a bit more fair to say monetary recognition of multiple heavenly deities or beings a covenant with Yahweh alone I don't think that's controversial or audacious I think that's just historical I think that the issue is you want to presentative okay I want you to find exactly that exact exact wording in the Bible and I say you can find the wording in the Bible but you have to you can you can spar back and forth of what it means you have to look at the ancient context of it and that overwhelmingly points to the fact that that this monologist idea is consistent with the Old Testament but the but the over as I need to bring us back to remind us the overwhelming testimony of the Old Testament is that it is Yahweh's uniqueness as the creator of all things that distinguishes him from all other gods that are themselves identified as abomination well then how about let's let's go to Genesis okay so the point is you did say you do not believe that Yahweh created he is Yahweh is not the origin source of everything that exists in any universe anywhere according to your understanding of Mormonism is that a true statement the statement I believe I'll say this that Yahweh is the creator he can delegate responsibilities to other people much like well not much like but a good comparison is a CEO is still the CEO of a company but he delegates responsibilities to other people I think that's totally fine to do it doesn't make him less of a creator who did that when he was a man oh okay getting into the exaltation gardening exalted man that's well IIIi did say specifically all universes anywhere and if he was once a man he had he didn't just float through space he lived upon a planet which means that there are there is matter that had its origin outside of his power and I think that's that's totally fine because you asked make sure you and I understand we're talking about what we got under we got to bring everybody else along with us so when you asked you you said earlier you said I don't believe AG and create matter right that's not true we existing them what we call esoteric doctrine this there's a doctrine we don't have much information about it so everything is sort of a suggested kind of theory we can we're very very positive that God is a man glorified heavenly man I think there are multiple scriptures to support that but the the the debate of is God an exalted man I think what we do is we jump straight to God hasn't talked to man show me where it says he's an exalted man but I think the better way to get there the more reasonable way to get there is to say okay well what do you know about Jesus Christ he came to earth as a man and was resurrected and was exalted I mean by definition of the word he became exalted right so if that's a pattern that Christ took Christ kept his body the Bible says that God the Father is a man not an intangible spirit essence everywhere but a miles is that did God the father's a man yeah it does so if God the Father is a man it's not unreasonable to say well was he exalted to like Christ maybe not the exact same method I would love I'd love to know where it says that but we can we can go there if you want definitely we can but but what I want to make sure everyone understands you said it's esoteric doctrine yeah so the king follow funeral is course is esoteric doctrine even when Joseph Smith says it is a first principle the gospel it can be you can be they fought one articles of faith in the King fall discourse they've King articles of faith say the the first or what is it the first principle ordinance of the Gospels faith in Jesus Christ King fall a discourse is a discourse a sermon given at a funeral with new rubber in hyperbole but also true cuz I love the king fall discourse I think it represents what we believe in a very firm beautiful way most common in general so but so you call it esoteric that confuses me how about the Presidency's statement from 1916 mmm-hmm because so far I'm a little confused well esoteric doctrine just means it's not clearly stated in our Canon okay so I'm not saying it's like a super like Oh hippy kind of thing it's more just if it isn't clearly stated in our Canon you can still be a good standing member of the church and not necessarily hold believe that wholeheartedly is that make sense but so the first presidency can say that the father is Elohim and the son is Yahweh Jehovah mmm do you believe that that is esoteric or is that definitional when the First Presidency puts out not entire statement for well I mean you can use you can use Jehovah really to refer to the father we just we we regulate them just for clarification purposes just to make it easier God the Father is a man the son Christ is the son I'm not sure what's what's esoteric controversial about that I don't maybe I misunderstood what you were saying what getting into is it's just that the statement is made over and over in Scripture that I'm not Yahweh oh is Elohim and he is the creator of anything that exists so Elohim can also be made plural too so God said let us make man in our image after our likeness there it is but in many places for example Deuteronomy 4:35 to show that you might know that Jehovah he is Elohim there is none else beside him mm-hmm now I see that as problematic within not even a little bit not even a little bit problematic because what we said again our lad of the Scriptures echo the exact same thing multiple times Lord God beside him there was no Savior Jesus is God he is not God the Father but he is God of the Old Testament there we yes we do believe and and you can say three God's father son Holy Spirit we don't believe that there one and and and and I'm not sure where do you use we use the one in testimony and purpose and mission but they are three we can count one two three that's the math works yeah yet two of them you can identify is Jehovah well Jehovah isn't the exact name it's it's a it's a title given that's a title yeah Yahweh's okay all right well I think we know I think I put that I guess the point there dr. white was quoting demonstrating from the text Yahweh is Elohim you said you didn't have any problem with that yeah well I think is also a title but you do make this is John called desc this it's it's just a desk please do not distinction name it yes you do make distinctions between them it is Elohim that sends down Joey yeah so I said earlier we make we make we make distinctions just to make it easier to we're not saying God's name exactly as Elohim the way your name is James we don't believe we're making distinctions and in fact actually I believe you had a dialogue with um Allred where he said the same thing so this isn't like a real concept this is pretty normal but we agreed that the 1916 First Presidency statement does not represent Joseph Smith's actual actual perspective well you have the statement in front is it not from me but because I think I mean in articles of faith but tell me yeah I mean we can we can reference and but if you don't have in front of us I look at exactly what it says I think I think this is the important point for me and that is in Mormon theology in the core of Mormon theology Yahweh Elohim is represented as a physical being who as an embodied physical being a gendered embodied physical being sends down another embodied physical being that he identifies as Jehovah in company with another well angelic being Michael I'm not sure a spiritual body so some sort so we're gonna err so getting to scripture you can make an argument for that however it isn't laid out very very clear that's sort of a way we've told it but that's not complete let's not the exact this is exactly how it happened we know for sure that's not what we claim at all that's not what latter-day saint theology claims it's not with the restored gospel claims it's a way to teach it in that sense but it has never ever been claimed this is the exact way it is period that's how it is that's not the reality however I would like to push back though because this idea that God being you know a man even an exalted man if we do read the Bible we do see how he's a man okay he's a man please demonstrate okay and I think we also see that him being a man is more clearly supported than him being a Trinitarian spirit which is what what my wonderful evangelical friends believe but that that's in my opinion I mean this with kindness that's not scriptural that's that's a later idea that's a mathematically impossible idea it's just not true and it can't be demonstrated with the scripture I was actually reading a wonderful Stanford article last night about the Trinity and says yeah I mean it isn't it isn't demonstrated in the New Testament or the Old Testament has been done no no it hasn't that's why I'm going let me ask you one question please name the book on your shelf written by a Christian in history on the Trinity defending the Trinity name one book on your shelf on my shelf well I've taken it if I can just point this out to you I think the reason you're struggling for a name of a book is you made another audacious claim again that Trinitarian doctrine is not scriptural it's it's it's false it can't be shown from the Bible and I just wanted to say this humbly to you I have making sense of God by Timothy Keller by the way just in terms of a humble a nudge to you okay not not a slam but a nudge to you when you can't name a single book on your shelf written by a Christian in 2,000 years and there are countless ones where they've done solid exegesis from the text itself in content in context to demonstrate store let me just finish the thought to demonstrate the triune nature of God from the Old and New Testaments and you make the kinds of claims that you have that it can't be done well I think the reason you feel like it can't be done is because you've never actually even listened to a Christian really defending it but I I imagine you do have books on your shelf written by people from the opposite perspective that wants to ultimately insert the kinds of things that you're suggesting into the text so so far eastern studies and those sorts of things so I'll say this I do I have making sense of God by Timothy Keller touches on this subject I'd also like to say I was raised Protestant so which means nothing well according to your own test according to your own testimony that I did listen to you made it pretty clear wait wait you can't tell me about my own testimony in my life we met today note that today we do not record you have a not record no we did I yeah and I did listen to it it's it's on YouTube in a couple places you made it very very clear that doctrinal studies was not the central aspect of your interest in evangelical Christianity I don't think that's what I said well and coming from here I'll say actually the Trinity has been something that has been on my mind probably since fifth grade starting at Harvest Bible Church in Cypress Texas this has been something discussable I've read a lot about the Trinity then why have you missed defined it yes system that's I don't think I have okay you said that there's one being whose three beings no one I didn't say that you did it on the video you did we played it we played it more than one did I or didn't say it no you guys talk over each other housing because I feel like when I look back my view my episode with with the Trinity I think it represented very well it's three persons and one god correct do you know what the difference between person and and being or nature is why no way not brought up right would you would you admit you didn't bring it up I honestly I have to go back and watch the episode I sure was it o year and a half ago we published it dude I'm almost 56 years old I remember you're James we know you're loaded okay come on Hanah me I remember I have eyes and you have a face hey you look by the way you look great for your age I just want to say that's cuz he works out like a beast I've always I've always wanted to meet John Malkovich so I feel like [Laughter] but let's get this over with I would I would like to meet to it oh I will I will take your presence oh my God look at these I got the Forgotten Trinity so yeah sure alone I got letters from oh oh this is that this is very controversial with the front on that that is that is so Mormon missionary as I I mean it's even got the little thing that you use to keep your pants from getting caught in the chain of your bike I mean that's on the desk that's that that is designed thank you very much for these books I will read them because I think you're an incredibly smart man I think you are very kind as well and so I'm very thankful for these I would like to go back to something to the Trinity we can say oh I misrepresented it I misrepresented blah-blah-blah-blah-blah let's just talk about it okay because me from my perspective when someone explains the Trinity they say one God three persons okay so my question for you is before the New Testament but during the earning Old Testament Christ it is the Trinity of duality or is it still a Trinity it's still three people three not you you completely lost it what do you mean is it now you mean you lost me so before the New Testament for Christ's earthly ministry its if the Trinity a Trinity or is a duality no of course is Tran it's a Trinity okay so where does the fun has eternal is he a spirit or is he it is an embodied person in the Old Testament in in the prologue of John if if you'd like to I will be as brief as I possibly can but I like to be biblical in providing a response to this and there are only a few places in scripture that shed light upon the pre existence of Christ and the relationship he had with the father but if you look at the prologue of John in the beginning was the word and the Word was with God and the Word was God okay John use yes beautiful amen well it but what does that mean because in the beginning was the word the the verb that is used there does not point to a point in origin so as far back as you want push NRK in the beginning the law Gauss the word is already in existence and the same thing is true in the second phrase and the word was pristine Theon so there is a personal relationship with whoever Theon is the God and the word was as to his nature to us deity now we get to the end of the prologue in verse 18 we're told no one has seen God at a time the unique God but not monogamous they us who is in the bosom of the Father he has executed him he has made him known so what are we told here the law Goss is eternally existed the law God says eternally existed in relationship with the father and then verse 14 tells us that the law Gauss entered into flesh but there the verb changes so as everywhere else with the law goes it is eternal existence in the past he came into physical existence at a point in time at a point in history okay yes so the Incarnation question then all right those great but to bring it to bring it low for for normal everyday people listening most we're talking about I think that was I know 100 percent they cannot if you were taken a study of everyone in America and they were listen time taught this to teenagers and they have no problem I you know I guarantee I taught it more slowly and I just did but okay well well well and anyway so going with this this this subject still still a Trinity before the Old Testament so I would ask to ask you where does the father spirit and in whereas the son spirit begin and or begin your putting them in space there is there there is no spaciality to so it's just once one spirit would I even talk about the word spirit we want English you must distinguish between the words person okay and being well they almost have the exact same definition if you know no they don't because well let's think about this way if I pick up a rock mm-hm and hit you with it a rock has being and you're gonna feel it yeah but if you insult the rock will the rock care uh-huh well those are two different words being those are the two those are not the same definition of no the point is that you and I every single day recognize the difference between being and person we know that there's all sorts of things that exist they have being but they're not personal okay so you're saying that so the be rice before as Ministry was not personal no I'm not saying that at all I'm simply giving you a basic foundational attribute that you're missing in your in your discussion of the doctor the Trinity and that is you and I are human beings right yes we are okay but we are separate human beings we share we share a common humanity mm-hmm but as persons we are separate from one another now is your being limits and finite no no you are an infinite being well I believe I have a spirit which is eternal that's that's not what I meant are you I think you can separate okay you had to take an airplane to get here so you can't be infinite right you are limited in time my physicality is limited but if not well so is your spirit still in provo well if you want to talk about spirit that's gonna take six hours just seems strange to me that the point is that we are beings that are personal God God's being is unlike our being in that he is eternal as he himself said well let me I want to ask this then if the getting back to the Trinity and just to make it that's what I was getting to well it's really no but the Trinity the Trinity is that there is one being of God Yahweh that is shared by three co-equal and coeternal person person Holy Spirit and so the point is my being cannot be shared by three persons because it's limited in finite his hanging is infinite eternal and therefore can I just revealed in script I still think that's that to do rail I want to talk about the accurate Trinity not comparing it to anything else I want to talk about the Trinity itself with no well what about this the actual Trinity itself no he's I think just to be fair here in terms of you know making the claim that there's D railing going on when you're asking for definitions and we're providing definitions it I don't think it's is that the definition of the Trinity well one we're asking questions about was there a Trinity before the Old Testament in you to asking questions about gods about spirit you're saying Father Son Holy Spirit okay and if Christ before the New Testament was not embodied he was spirit is that fair to say not a spirit I said spirit he was I know but there's a difference between spirits and a spirit I know I just be limited or anything along those lines he was not incarnated so God is spirit it's fear is that fair to say okay father is spirit holy spirit spirit yeah so if you can make a distinction of three then word is the first spirit and in the second spirit began because if you can have three than the SP dividing and beginning is either a temporal or a physical reality both of which God denies for himself no it's counting it's math you can't say one two three and then save not one two three it's not it's father-son sphere one two three so you're saying you're saying God three persons one two three where is the first and the second first save themselves distinguish themselves from each other they make distinctions from one layer so if distinction if there is distinction then there must be division no why well the only way to distinct it to show is there isn't there's a division persons sharing one being that's why I tried to lay the foundation say I can't have that happen because my being is stuck in time and space and is finite God's being isn't I know okay well well that that's fair to say the issue I see is persons not in being there's yes this is the fundamental difference and this is something that you understood well well no one can understand it because it's no that's that's mathematically it might my kids can understand it and apply mathematics applying mathematics to scriptural revelation I mean let's just let's just let's just be honest we can turn that around and talk about the the number of gods and infinity and eternal regression we can recall moments like that talking with the Trinity right now I still want to know that this is the issue I see and I know and I'm sorry my voice getting a little loud I don't mean I don't mean to be rude on the text and we kind of get you know so again I feel like it's it's from my perspective I feel it's disingenuous to say to say it is all one completely one but then say three and I'm saying if you can if you can make a distinguish between the Father Son and Holy Spirit as spirits premortal earth ministry then that is division if you can make a distinguishing this is something off from this that's what division is what it means there's a partiality or partial is an aspect of the Trinity here's here's here's what you're missing is that I met with some Jehovah's Witnesses a number of years ago and they they asked me why do you believe in the doctor of the Trinity and I said it's very simple the Bible reveals that there is one true and eternal God they were shocked that I said that I think I might have said Jehovah to them because Jehovah's Witnesses freak out if you use anything other than Jehovah's would you know their language so there is one God Jehovah the problem is the Father the Son and the Spirit are all identified as Jehovah in the New Testament so in Isaiah 53 who lays our sins upon them aside it's Jehovah Glaser since my close the Messiah Jesus so there's the father being identified as Jehovah Jesus is identified Jehovah as a number of times in a New Testament and the Spirit is the Spirit of the Lord is Spirit of Jehovah so if you have one God and three persons who are distinguished from one another this was look you've got to understand in your video I don't I don't know who said it but someone said well I don't know I'd be praying to yourself that is a common misunderstanding this was the son the Incarnate State prank then but you didn't correct him I'm not sure if I did we did we film about 40 minutes worth and we cut it into six seven to ten minutes okay then you cut out his correction if you correct it I don't the point is what was indicated by kind of a show what was communicated I catch these things because I deal with with Muslims all around the world and this is a common error that they make as well well I think it ease us was not easy to note that error though because I can go to mark 13:32 but of that day the hour speaking of a second coming no man knoweth no not the angels which are in heaven neither the son but the father if they were all one God how does the son not know something the father knows exactly the argument the Muslims make and I'll give you the exact same reason straight from Scripture Jesus emptied himself of certain divine prerogatives so he might function as the Messiah for example we know from the Mount of Transfiguration then when Jesus is seen as he is he is pure and bright yeah if Jesus walked around Galilee blinding everybody he couldn't have exactly functioned as the Messiah teaching the way he did and be betrayed by the Jews because they'd be falling down and worshiping him so there were certain aspects of his divine character that were veiled including his glory during his time upon earth and and more God's purposes yes as the Messiah the knowledge of that time was one of the things that is veiled during that time where is that clearly laid out in sped-up in chapter 2 it says right here Philippians chapter 2 he says do nothing from rivalry or conceit but in humility count others more significantly ourselves like each of you look out not only for his own interest but also for the interests of others have this mind among yourselves which have this mind among yourselves which is yours in Christ Jesus who Jesus though he was in the form of God did not eternal count did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped or held onto but made himself nothing taking the form of a servant being born in the likeness of men and being found in the human in human form he humbled himself to become obedient to the point of death even death on a cross I think that's also I mean they're employing some very great beautiful poetic language there because he also says before Abraham was I am and that's not saying nothing well that's not you just quoted I'm in Philippians 2 you just quoted John chapter 8 yeah well it's the New Testament I can't I can't quote different but you're the one that came in here sitting down first talking about how important context is I'm talking about the words of Christ like what Jesus sang himself help me he said right before Abraham was I am and so I'm saying this is it's employing poetic language not saying a language I'm saying it's employing poet this is actually this is actually no let's list this let's do this even better shall we do this even better we did a little something for you my friend yes sorry would you would you would you here let me help you out tell me which which which verses just read help yeah we did something for you okay do you remember a message I sent you oh you got me a bio of my name route 9 didn't you this isn't just a Bible with your name on it oh okay yes it is not I don't know if you if you if you notice this but I have a very special Greek New Testament here mm-hmm and these are these are hand made these are hand found and I had the same guy post tenebrous Lux a Bible rebinding really skilled guys do this just for you it has your name on it bound together this is a Reformation Study Bible I think the same translation he was accusing now you've got one problem I didn't separate the pages because that's half the fun in having anything new yes is the the wonderful paint on the edge of the pages you have to go through and you have to separate them so don't tear your pages see how they sort of stick together because that's just that's just how it's how it's done with a brand new Bible I didn't want to ruin the gift for you but you really don't understand how amazing this gift this is this is this is a hand bound handmade newer this is like legend thank you very much yes yes I will I will I will cherish this this is you got Wow so I'll let you get them and it's the right color yes it's the right blue that is my favorite kind I asked James widest charitable anyone who says this man is not he is a charitable good man he is he is so just before you pick it up and go to the past I just want to point something out to you just again this is a humble very respectful nudge to you when I quoted from the Apostle Paul here and what he said about Jesus who was in the very form of God and did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped or held on to but he emptied himself and took upon the form of a servant humble himself became obedient to death your first response was a reaction and you said that's just poetic language no that wasn't my first response I've heard it before okay but that was your response was that he's using poetic language and you talked about the need for context I just want to point out to you as you go to the the Word of God there that you then asked me when I gave the Bible to you can you tell me where this was at which chapter which means and this is again a humble nudge not anything other than to say I want you to pay attention to this you had a response to a passage from Scripture in terms of a refutation that's poetic language but you didn't even know where it was from well I would like to if I can defend myself okay one the words in your Bible are very very small I'm just I was asked me to point to it as one I really it's incredibly small you have great eyes for 40 the other thing is oh and now a people that's right yes but I also like to say though it is completely normal to have a view and an opinion on Scripture and not know where every single scripture is right at the top my point was as you were responding to a specific text with an argument and a refutation no no wait wait I was responding because when you said when the text ended saying you know made himself nothing I'm saying that is poetic because Christ also said before Abraham was I am so it's not saying exactly oh Jesus was nothing or just so that's why I'm figure so that's what poetic you think the whole thing was poetic but that is a poetic way of saying something would you agree you let me let me let me focus in upon that because I've done a lot of work on this text and and if you I think what Jeff's want to do is have you open the libyans jeopardy Olympians chapters in Chapter two I hope the print is not too small for you I'm sorry and if you want to train your Bible that way too but let me just point something else wait I'd like say it's not that it's too small for you to read it was so small and it feel like searching for in that ten second let me just say a couple things first of all you're exactly right that the language of verses 6 through 11 in Philippians chapter 2 is poetic because most scholars believe that this is a portion of an ancient hymn of the church and so it is poetic however I would point out everything in the Salters poetic yeah and many hymns represent a very precise theology and I would I would suggest to you that what we have here is a very precise theology yes verse 6 who existing in the more faith a you the very form of God did not consider equality with God something to be held on to or grasped but made himself nothing now when you say that's poetic I will agree with you in this in this sense Paul never uses this Greek word cannot in a literal sense he always uses it metaphorically so for example he says I don't want my labor amongst you to become empty he's not talking about the bombs gonna fall out and I'll be on the floor and ruined he's talking metaphorically so on that I would agree so what does that mean here what that means here is that Paul is exhorting the believers to an attitude of humility toward one another what is humility it's having certain rights and privileges but laying them aside in the service of other people yes so how did G how is Jesus our example of this he eternally exists in the form of God Isaiah chapter 6 when Isaiah saw Jehovah sitting enthroned that was Jesus that was that was the one who would become the son in the Incarnation so he's worshiped by the hosts of heaven and yet he made himself of no reputation by doing what how Jehovah was sitting down but you don't believe he has a body how was he sitting down if he's everywhere again he's God God why would you have to have a physical body to be able to sit upon a throne why why are you when you sit down that's mean you're sitting down a body say you're you are projecting on to God your creatureliness no no no no that's that's just words that's just how but words sit means you're sitting down but that's like me saying upon his throne he's seen by God do you really think that Isaiah was saying look he's a human being like me that's not what he's saying yeah but I mean he pretty probably was saying that that he was he was and this was sitting upon a throne he's sitting down I would like to I mean if we can even go to we can go to the same Isaiah who's gonna tell us that that Yahweh is without beginning without and fills the universe he's also saying but he also has a physical body which you don't believe he had absent America saying he feel like well that that is something poetic but saying like the vision wedeck does not mean untrue poetic poetic the poetic language here is extremely specific and what it is specifically but it is not stating that he is everywhere I can fight if I can go straight to Genesis for it for a moment to read scriptures and a professor's away just clarifying those there was two different points being made there was reference to Isaiah you were responding to there that we were talking about Philippians chapter 2 those are two separate issues the reason we went to Philippians chapter 2 originally is because you brought up a text from mark about Christ not knowing the hour of his return so we were right now the judger Tennyson yes pacifically would include making himself of no reputation there was a veiling of here i pre-existent glory so what about responds to that first question that you had there I think it was I think he responds I don't think it actually answers because it's saying okay you're saying he failed I would agree with that however the scripture you read in Philippians 2 that that that in no way is is is come is is supporting a Trinitarian idea why you have you have you have one who is he eternally equal with the Father which is really cool eternally equal the father so you're saying eternally equal but then you're saying he voluntarily he voluntarily so he would makes himself of no reputation mostly both the father's no be eternally you see you you are you are completely misunderstanding what equality means not equality is not an equal sign that says the father is the son I don't run and the father eternally exists as God so did I know the exact same thing no do not know them can they be eternally equal in the way you're saying no they can't because I mister by nature they share the one being that is God you are buddy not you I purpose or not by knowledge and not eternally equal that's kind of what you're saying is what I'm saying is that each of the persons acts in such a way that we can identify and distinguish between father son and spirit is the son I agree with when became incarnate none of this changes the fact that there's only one God and none of this changes the fact that none of these were men that lived on another planet beforehand and also know we've we've skipped over one significant portion there it teaches there in the text that Paul says an inspired apostle says that Jesus was in the form of God mm-hmm but you don't believe that do you what's up she's in the form of God Jesus I was in a form of God before his earthly ministry yeah that G homas you believe that Jesus was a God you believe he was a God before the Incarnation yes okay and then continued to be a God after the resurrection it was still a God on earth but he didn't marry he wasn't able to have offspring and that's why Mormons have even speculated as to whether Jesus will have that opportunity and the Holy Spirit will have that well that is a that is a another water balloon that's not relevant right now I think it's not at all not at all over right now I think talking about again we said God being a person and not just this this essence everywhere and you saying God is eternal and I son is eternal with the father but then saying he the father knows something the son doesn't but if their eternal co-equal completely wand like you're saying they cannot knows the father will not know something he doesn't because if it's one guy and the God cannot divide or contradict itself so on what basis are you saying the son does not have the capacity or ability to enter into human flesh to redeem his not what I'm saying I'm saying though it is no not a scripture that says the scripture that says the scripture that says speaking of context of the second coming no man knoweth not even the son but the incarnate state for the specific reasons being is the son son voluntarily chose to take my role I agree but it doesn't word I've been one god that doesn't work that's God divided against itself no it's not yes then prove it ok so what is what is divide mean divide what I'm not simply a being of God has been divided you know something that Jeff doesn't know the divine person of the son can voluntarily I agree with that but everything very rough no it doesn't it absolutely does you guys read Protestant side I was raised a Protestant means what you convert at what age was I convert at what age I was converted fifteen okay so at fifteen you would read Agustin's work on the Trinity you would read BB you and I both know you don't have to read every boy in his Waco I think the point we're pointing on come on Micah just if you could just allow me to say this I think we're trying to point out here is that it's it's already been demonstrated I think can be demonstrated we can we can spend time doing if you want that you made errors in your description of what Christians believe about the Trinity no I didn't and you sat next Sir Ian made it you sat next to it without any correction - no don't we don't know I want the people in the audience to go get Ian and get the tire treads off of his back in the bus so the board is I'm very smart and I love your dad well the point is to John for no correction and you allowed us to be published as well in there first okay just let me sorry I'm sorry okay thank you and you allowed it to be published and you knew there were errors apparently there and you allowed it to go up with those errors I can say that that to me is a little difficult to swallow well I just finished finish the thought here so in terms of you you appealing to the fact that you are raised to Protestant yes I want to say to just speaking to people who are reformed on this side in terms of being raised in American Protestantism or evangelicalism I want to just let you know as an argument from Authority that means very little in 21st century America and I mean this almost like as heartbroken but you know humble jab at you it means really nothing but you also I want to point out to you that you can't you haven't pointed this is really your first book on the Trinity just hand it to you today so when you say that you don't own books on the turn I have read extensively about the Trin okay I do not own books so I'm in college if you read books on they on the Trinity and I'm only asking us to understand where the questions are coming from it if you've read them on the Trinity then why do you keep creating these category errors okay well argument okay I will now respond to got to this buffet of grid questions on the and the question of the show your show operates differently than our show this isn't this isn't a question of me representing theology this is how media works I don't I don't edit the episodes of the show we give suggestions and they do it then what they will I'm just a edited at different times so we've we spoken that subject for about 40 minutes I recognize that some of the things in the episode were you know not true as as any deep topic you discuss on any show whether it be political religious about farming you're going to get some things wrong that's totally fine however saying that I allowed it to go up and I was putting floor no misinformation this isn't this isn't me trying to to try to get you to answer you're not on the witness stand right now not no no I know I just wanna clarify my I know but I'm pointing out to you is that you you may an argument from Authority there about yourself in your own background and training in this area but when I'm just pointing out to you as as you guys are dialogue and you keep creating these you're making category errors and you're you're demonstrating that you don't really understand the stop but then you claim that you do I don't think I don't think I'm misrepresenting I'm just saying I was raised on a stand in it and I just think it's to say you don't understand this okay you don't know we've only met today so I think we should get away from alibag you don't know this you don't know this they're not smart enough relation let's just clean yeah that hasn't been done here we're out responding to your claim okay you made the claim that what I was saying and what Christians have believed about what the son voluntarily did is somehow contradictory no let can I wait I will say to some how contradictory to Protestants I know this okay I will so there's no there's no misunderstanding I will state what I'm saying okay I'm saying that if it is one God they follow us on the spirit cannot be separated from each other they cannot be divided they are completely one together I'm saying I think it is disingenuous to claim that at any point the father will know something the son doesn't know okay you just the error that you made and why that does not represent process is why I don't believe any fifteen-year-old in a community of church could have even begun to know this which was your immediately responds well is that the the relationship of father son and spirit is not only one that allows us to distinguish between father son and spirit even before creation but after creation they take differing roles in the redemption of mankind is called the economic Trinity it's not the father who became incarnate no I know that was not the Spirit who became incarnate I know that son so there's a very han so which is fundamental Trinitarian teach it's great we agree so if there's three there's three there are three persons one being and you you just automatically just just shut down and why didn't you I will not allow that distinction that makes sense of the Scriptures don't I don't believe if I don't believe that you can make sense of all of the scriptures if you do not allow for the fact that there is one God Yahweh who has revealed himself as Father Son and spirit that is what we believe and it is not so against Protestant thinking ok I recognize that the son I never said it's against Protestant thing I just think it's it shows that there is a disconnect because no disconnection there either well we look we can say that I'm just saying I think it's it's interesting to claim one God one being completely united completely together I never sense of the way by nature and knowledge or nature but we're talking whether the being of God everything for son knows we're talking about God's nature well I would like to ask about knowledge and does the father know everything son but you must his life as part of eternity is life a part of eternity even in Mormon theology I want to know Mormon theology there is a distinction regarding the incarnate state we are not i right now this is about the Trinity this is not about I don't want it I want to ask you I'm holy is this work is this world this life right now is this a part of eternity is it a part of eternity yes okay so if in eternity they know everything in the same knowledge this scripture says the Sun no does not know something the father knows and you say you did it willingly veiled okay but as a man I think that's interesting that you are one hand saying they know everything from eternity to eternity completely unified every single subject every single knowledge of matter and space but then I'm saying okay well the father doesn't son doesn't know I think that in the Incarnation inclination is a part of eternity is it but it is a specific historical all I'm saying it's a part of eternity that's all I'm saying chapter 1 verse 14 I agree with you guys no you don't know I do I do agree I agree with you not agreeing I'm just saying as well I'm thinking what I was saying I I am hearing it would recognize that as I pointed out from the prologue of John that there was a there is a distinction that even John gives between the eternal relationship of father and son in NRK and then in 1:14 the word became flesh yes so that happened in history and yes and therefore there was a a purpose the father sends the Sun the Sun comes voluntarily the spirit is involved but they all take different roles so you sit back and say oh but if they take different roles and if that if that means that there's going to be any you know I mean the father remains Laureus and worshiped in heaven but now the son is being abused by these people I just wanna all that could fit the trigger I didn't say that no basis for it I didn't say that I'm just saying I think it's understandable because I think the two views you just gave I do think an any person who's looking at them will notice that there seems to be a contradiction and I and we will disagree of course because the reason you bring that though is because you bringing external definitions from as you admitted earlier a different religion you know I'm using definitions by words and Merriam Webster's dictionary really do you really think that you're you're not influenced by your Mormon worldview okay we are both influenced by our religion you're Calvinists my latter-day saint worldview I'm just saying it's you don't have to be a latter-day saint to see this what's this contradiction between having a complete knowledge together as one God because I agree on this hand I agreed that the son didn't know what the father knew while he was on earth the Joe Smith translation makes that clear however I will say though that means they're not this one God in the way you're saying also earlier this dis beckons to or echoes the earlier thought of when I asked about the the Trinity before the Incarnation and you said 1:1 together but then you're you've been making any distinction one thing it isn't all and I and that's Matt understood if you no no no it's not that it don't understand it's that it is amazing for me as a Mormon who emphasizes latter-day revelation all the time would be content to actually sit there and say it's math no it's Revelation it's it's wrong it's right here beautiful thing about my revelation is that all all true knowledge fits within revelation and math fits within revelation and the Trinity is madness ethically incoherent in my opinion so it is not revelation it is it is not mathematically 100% if you really have a person or two different things how can you make them contradictory to one another okay being in person are two different things however all right winners agree there what we disagree on is when you say one god and then you say three then you're saying not divided but having distinct like distinctive differences it you just at this I'll be honest with you because you just made a category error when we say undivided we're saying that the being of God cannot be divided up into parts there is only one being of God so now about the persons when we talk about the person sharing that one being if you were familiar with Trinitarian theology you would know that we emphasize this is not a division of the being of God the Father is not one-third of God the spirit is not one-third of God the Son is not one-third of God there can be no division of the being there is however a distinction of the persons because they relate to one another they have revealed themselves to us in such a way that we can distinguish between father son and spirit and if you would just get away from you see I of making being and person the same thing I tried that's why I was trying to explain this earlier on and you sort of just said could we get back to the Trinity well well I'm sorry you a foundational stuff doctor right you explained it now I still think it's if I may say nonsense I don't mean that in a rude way I'm just trying to figure out words do you know I haven't I haven't said anything for a little bit let me just say one of the things that I think we would want to say to you in terms of our loving encouraging evangelization of you because we want to see you know the Lord wants you to know them I know I know well well and that's what we're discussing I just want you to hear this I think that it makes sense to me a lot of sense to me that that a that you that Mormonism is is very attractive and appealing to a creature a a creature that has been created by God that sees their own experience of mothers and fathers and children and time and space and only they've see this Tyrael realm around us how the god of Mormonism makes a lot of sense because he's us he's just like us whereas the biblical definition of God from Genesis to Revelation is a God that is far above us really well I says and they heard the voice of Lord God walking in the garden yesterday a man man and his wife heard the sound of Lord he was walking the earth let us make man in our image after our likeness and then Adams says the same thing and Adam made Seth in his image after his likeness this is a physical God we're talking about that a physical not like energy consciousness is just not there okay hold on wait where where and this is one of those examples you just did it again you said this energy consciousness when have we suggested to you at any point that we believe God is an energy consciousness well you think God is God God's not a body and God is not help orders well then if he doesn't have a body or borders he's just got a good physical the Lord of glory himself that's that God is spirit and what a spirit well you want to get definitions and in terms of know what is spirit to you spirits out not immaterial immaterial I would say immaterial so it's conscious it's not a fair word to you here it is immaterial and now you're now another is not a fit now and now you know you're doing something else to what we're talking about consciousness something that a person would have person that's a person category person well we're talking about nature and substance here we're talking about you you asked what spirit is I was well best way to say that in terms of this discussion is immaterial a material a material knowledge well hold on immaterial is in terms of his nature what that his being is we're talking about being big not physical so so he and he has no borders so don't use consciousness don't use what what what is here what I'm just interested so you can understand where I'm coming from and I and I agree with you we're both operating here in terms of presuppositions my presuppositions are commitments to what God has disclosed in his word in yours of course our Mormon presuppositions we have to both acknowledge that so when you talk about God as spirit I'm thinking about biblical definitions and how God has disclosed himself and he says that he spirit he says that he fills heaven and earth he talks about himself in terms of his eternal nature from everlasting from eternity into eternity but you don't accept well notnot let's the I'm saying well there are certain things about that that again are poetic I'm asking you what is spirit where was I quoting from your quoting from the Word of God the holding which which verse is like loading from just now I you know I don't know you can't you can't that's like oh my point is is that your response to a text that so clearly defines a god that's separate from the God that you worship your response of that's poetic when you couldn't even tell me where it's from no I'm saying eternity Detroit eternity I'm saying that or sorry Phil's heaven and earth rather that is poetic because he does have a body he is a man his spirit his knowledge his his his powers he filters everything what is spirit what is spirit well let me just ask you guys I'm gonna respond to what you just said I want to wait before we estimate a question because I ask you what a spirit first what is spirit well I just described spirit in terms of immaterial immaterial was just just image not a consciousness not a knowledge immaterial what what is inter consciousness and knowledge would be something that we in the category of person okay well personally it's the person's one being but even if it isn't what is spirit I mean it's a revelatory term and I want I want your audience why do you want a mathematical deficit snot mathematic I want your audience to understand this and I want the latter-day saints listening to understand this we from the Restorick who believe in the microphone [Laughter] the restored gospel of Jesus Christ is beautiful and true and showing the biblical of a definition and in nature of God of having a body and you know I and Jacob call the place of the name of the place Peniel for I've seen God face to face the Lord spake unto Moses face to face a man speaketh unto his friend you're saying goes no no no no wait wait wait wait you're saying a no immaterial and I say well what what is immaterial I don't really know what is spirit I don't really know that we don't have it well you didn't give me an answer to what is material you didn't give me an answer I mean eternally spirit you said thee and then I asked on knowledge you said well knowledge that's personal any also say person there's three perfect of God's you have to allow for isolation I think I'll respond to what you said and people can thankfully as recorded they can roll the tape back and said that we didn't in fact say what you said we said but in terms of when you go to the Old Testament and you do you pull random text from the Bible to show God I'm not pulling random time talking about the physicality of God I may just say I would like to respond to each of those in terms of the old testament revelation does have numerous glorious amazing instances which by the way I use to demonstrate the triune nature of God of the pre-incarnate christ showing up right and and interacting with his people it's a glorious thing that I think supports and demonstrates of course the triune nature of God that so we go to those same texts too so when you quote them I say amen and hallelujah I know you do but I just reach on but but in terms of when you when you start quoting passages from the Old Testament talking about him speaking to God face-to-face like one speaks to his friend I I have a solid biblical answer from that for that that actually works in tandem with all of the rest of Scripture but if we start doing what you're doing in terms of just taking these texts and just throwing them out making God look like he's an exalted man I would say do you believe that God has feathers if he wants to have feathers he can because the Bible has numerous examples of God keeping us in the shadow of his wings yeah that's poetic okay so that's saying face to face and then echoing again as a man speaking through his friend that's not poetic that's going to get a pointer so it's what's important here to note is we both recognize that there is hyperbole used in Scripture yes and that is not a metaphor in Scripture right so we have to take them in their context and not just one text here there but in their immediate context and the context of all of Scripture correct so when we look in the Bible when we see God's consistent descriptions of himself in his own nature as something that is not creaturely something that is beyond us something that is from everlasting to everlasting well I think it's talking about it's talking about knowledge that the Bible makes clear is talking about the knowledge and power is something we can't grasp but the being in nature itself and makes very clear he's a father he's a man who looks like us made in His image wait hold on now hold on wait you just you just made a category error there you talked about the father in terms of being I'm saying I'm saying he's our father he's the father of humanity but he's also a man and those two things go well together that's what the Bible says if there is nowhere in the Bible it says verily thus saith the Lord unto you I am NOT I am NOT a physical being yay not even a being you could understand if you saw but I'm image Tyrael that goes with everywhere that's not scriptural well that's a later idea yes you turn things around shall the potter be considered to be like the clay and what is made would say of its maker he did not make me or what is formed say of him who formed it he has no understanding the biblical utilization of the category of the Potter and the clay you turn things around this is about as descriptive of Mormon theology as I can possibly come up with shall the Potter be considered to be like the clay yes actually because if I recall correctly according to the eternal to achieving a celestial marriage student manual copyright 1992 corporation the president of Church Jesus Christ latter-day saints we have one of the most amazing statements I've ever read in any religion hmm it's this always you are an eternal being you were never created and you cannot be destroyed but you can advance progress and develop by obedience do you agree with the first Presidency's statement before I agree with anything I need to read it myself I need to read the context what they're speaking I need to read why they released the that statement I don't just go and eternal marriage ceremony ceremony manual to be married in the temple for more than a decade I will raise that and I will get back to you okay let me just make sure everybody hears it though because this is a part a part of it without context rereading a part of it I can and it also you didn't really there wasn't even lettered a scripture that's not Anna neither you know what you're not picking things in our can I thought you believed in the authoritative teaching office of the Corporations and presidency of the church Jesus Christ loudest I do I just think it's interesting that we're trying to get to latter-day saint doctrine you have not quoted Scripture you've just made quoted well first of all the Book of Mormon doesn't teach any of this stuff about God because actually the doctrine covenants do keep the covenants down well well when it's look more much translated goes he didn't have all of that that's how you know a lot precept upon precept and that's how our scripture comes the fourth and that's how or Gospels restored line upon line so you're objecting to my quoting from the first presidency of course I'm not objecting you're putting out of context and throwing it and not giving it it's it's fair do explanation well I have read this entire section so many times I've lost count and I will allow anyone to examine themselves and they will see it as completely in context God was once a man who by obedience advanced to his present state of oh I agree to that I agree obedience and celestial marriage we may progress to the point where we become like God claiming the divine potential within man John Taylor once wrote knowest thou not that thou art a spark of deity struck from the fire of his eternal blaze and brought forth and midst of everlasting burnings elder BH Roberts stated man has descended from God in fact he is the same race as the gods his descent has not been from a lower form of life from the highest form of life in other words man is in the most literal sense a child of God this is not only true of the spirit of man but of his body also it's beautiful and true and I think a wonderful example we see of that is how we know that God was a man as scripture says but I think there's an even bigger umbrella here we should we should discuss on the subject and then I want it alright alright one other quote I know elder James E Tallmadge in his mortal condition man is God in embryo however any individual now mortal being may attain the rank and sanctity of God chip I just want to contrast these statements with once again the words of what we know Jesus taught was the very word of God because he quoted from the prophet Isaiah so many times you turn things around shall the potter be considered as like the clay and that what is made would save its maker he did not make me earlier on you pointed out if you if you agree with the statement I do ternal being you were never made and you cannot be destroyed that is a 180-degree contradiction of the teaching of inspect it is 100% not a contradiction because yes the potter is not like the clay in the sense that as people on earth we are not like God we don't have the knowledge and it's trying to show the place of humanity and God however this idea of becoming God been very very scriptural for our conversation is in heaven from whence also we look for the Savior Lord Jesus Christ who shall change our vile body that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself the spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God does that mean to you well I would like I'd like to finish and if children then heirs heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ if severely suffer with him we may also be glorified together right this is adoption of redeemed sinners this has no you not that you shall judge angels who judges angels God God okay so yeah yeah not the fire so the man of God so the same scriptures that says there is one God says there's actually many gods it is mostly in cohere no it's not uncle here I'm saying you don't understand no wait wait wait wait sorry miss dr. white doctor white I'm sorry here again this is why I immediately brought up the context of which those scriptures are saying when it's saying no other God before me beside me yeah it's not saying it in the English European religion especially saying it in the Asian context all I gave you ancient content a view the ancient context I gave you them you gave me liberalism that I've heard alive well answers to all of that how about point how about this how about this I think you made the statement that the Potter and the clay is just simply a matter of knowledge no sir it is a matter of being I agree water forms clay as he wishes mm-hmm God forms us as he wishes he is not clay we will reign with him and we will judge angels that's grace through the work of Jesus Christ the gospel I agree I agree God it's well I'm sorry that's one because it says we can be some rice it says we can become like God and you know we both know we could quote early Christian church fathers who would who believe the same thing actually I told her that to shreds was sitting in the seat that you're sitting in you know I think if you have to say that you tore something to shreds and that's another person I think this let's talk about one the people that you quoted on that program would have believed with you that God was once a man who lived another planet well I guess we'll find out next life when we talk to him no sir yeah we find out church history for many many years and I'm telling you listen to me things with different doctor did not believe that God was once a man lived under the planet how on earth can you then interpret them to be saying what you are saying dr. white okay well if I if I will I think that the there is there's something important for this conversation that we should remember I think that we should let ourselves speak for ourselves I don't think that we need to to say oh well you know for 30 years I thought such-and-such let's just we don't need to appeal to our thirty let's just knock exactly the tomatoes claims to authority that you have not backed up and I believe I've backed it up very very fairly but yes I do I do think just reflects just we don't get off course here could you respond to the the point that he just made about the early church fathers yes you brought you made a point about early church fathers believing that they could become God deification the god of this earth and he responded to that can you can you saying that will none of them believe that he was an exalted man I just say the idea of him being an exalted man one and correct me if I'm wrong here I don't even believe that's in the Doctrine and Covenants well that that God was once a man that's not that's not you know section 130 verse 22 as a body of flesh and bones - yeah but didn't talk and talk about the good old patient because the Bible says you that's fair to say he gets close and that's why I believe it he was an exalted man Christ was exalted I think the father was exalted however if you say well the early Christian church fathers didn't teach that did it teach that we can become gods and they did teach that God looked like us so it's not it's we don't we don't exactly know where the top out or not we don't even believe they were apostles Eli Christian Church father so I don't look to them for complete authority but you do cite them and I believe you cite them very very wrongly there's an entire chapter in the book sitting right in front of you and where I go through a number of those texts that you used and demonstrated that from the writings of the church fathers so let me ask I will let you I will let your fans you quoted here and when you put it give me one book Irenaeus wrote here's what I want to do I want a sweater now just answer wait wait wait because here's what I don't want this to turn into because I know that a great debate technique and what you do is say you know this you know this you know this no and I don't I don't I don't what I want what I want I would I want to ask this I want to I want to notes I don't think it's unfair yeah but what I want to say is this I think week if if the the deter the the doctrine of God being an exalted man the doctrine of us becoming God's this in in our context speaking right now you may not believe it rests upon early church fathers bitter rest upon Joseph Smith's doctrine is that fair to say you believe this is doctrine of Joseph Smith Oh most of ya no one no or Joseph so Joseph Smith if Joseph Smith was telling the truth then this is true if he was lying then he was lying and it's it's gublin akkad nonsense the way to test the validity of Joseph Smith is not to get into the incredibly deep esoteric well with God a man can can Aaron a s can can can Origen confirm that bla bla bla no the way to determine the validity of Joseph Smith is the Book of Mormon if the Book of Mormon is an authentic how can that be I'll explain if the Book of Mormon is an authentic ancient record of Mesoamerican history spiritual knowledge and doctrine if it is true and it came forth the way Joseph said it came forth then we have only reason to believe that the restored gospel latter-day Saint theology is okay to errors a the Book of Mormon doesn't teach any of this stuff Joseph Smith didn't believe any of these well there's a barman haolam secondly obviously since it doesn't teach these things it cannot validate the truthfulness these things because you have to allow the possibility hey maybe it was an ancient record and then Joseph Smith let off into weirdness in the years after the Book of Mormon right well here's why I love that were true are you telling me it's impossible given how many people Joseph Smith himself excommunicated from the LDS Church that once had a testimony the Book of Mormon you telling me that that actually follows it here's what I'll say here's that here's I have lots of reasons for not believing the Book of Mormon as an ancient record of a they took place to this all I do but maybe one day you'll get it so here's here's my response Joseph Smith he never claimed that God came down put and SD card in his brain and gave him all the information at lunch in our church we use this phrase quite a lot line upon line precept upon precept we believe God gradually revealed things and he gave a little bit a little bit more a little more a little more until the doctrine of oh I understand God now it was it was a staircase up that's what we're claiming we are never claiming that it happened all at once and I think wait wait but with the first vision you have a problem can I finish yeah thank you so let me loot the issue is let me finish so you have the staircase going up and you have a little more a little more a little more a little more given the Book of Mormon is where you start and if it is an authentic ancient record of which we have great evidence for then that means ok that first staircase that was true is it prideful then to go well none of this stuff is true if the Book of Mormon sure the reality is if the Book of Mormon is true then the debate of Christian doctrine who is right Calvinists and Baptists are no longer even on the table they're no longer there and if the if evidence where the Book of Mormon is true then really nothing we even talked about the past hour 45 minutes really matters that much if we know the Book of Mormon is true because it seems within line in and reasonable thought that we can trust the later restored gospel doctrines that are witnessed to by many many people well your your stair-step analogy unfortunately it's contradictory to your own position I don't think I do I just i i'm interjecting because you interject so i'm trying to match your energy it wasn't allegedly God appeared to Joseph Smith in the spring of 1820 and as two separate and distinct physical beings now there are massive historical problems with the first vision none of the churches in that area had a revival in 1820 it took place in 1824 Joseph Smith himself said that a reverend Lane was the Methodist Church he didn't get there till 1824 1823 the land assessment records demonstrate they didn't liberate hate where are you are you getting this from a book that I wrote before you were born and who is quote who are you quoting in the book the land assessment records and everything else to anybody who wants to look at these things you're free to you're free to respond I'll let you eat finish your all right yes sorry finished a point the point is there is massive historical evidence that the first vision story developed and in fact what's fascinating is when I was your age I went into the church historical department and I photocopied Joseph's own handwritten account the first vision where he doesn't have two persons mm-hmm I had to show that to people and they're like no no no no that's now being published by the church which is a fascinating change that's taking place over time well we've been talking about that for quite a long time quite a long time actually I'm sorry that that's been being spoken uh for quite a long time what's been being spoken the fact that um and and one of the the counts of first vision it's only talked about it's how many how many of the nines how many of the nine accounts to Joseph Smith right what depends on how you define which not which one you talk of the nine first vision accounts we have from whom okay well no sense okay so what I'm saying you talking about let's say let's take this day right here okay I can write an account of this day you could write an account of this day you can R an account of this day that's three accounts right there they're not all from you or from you were for you I'm saying how many other than nine did Joseph Smith right I don't even know what nine you're talking about but the pole so that's how many we have they've got another point you've got nine accounts of how you count them but the point is that Joseph Smith is not teaching in the Book of Mormon what he ends up teaching in the book of we don't we don't we wish it Adolphe is you're right we don't have to I will counter your book of Mormon statement by saying that the Book of Abraham is one of the clearest evidences that the Book of Mormon is a fraud no it's not because I think the Book of Abraham is beautiful and true and I think we have great evidence that with the plaintiff Allah Shem and with the manner in which Egyptians were sacrificed we know those things are both true when we're verified true it's back to when you can turn an Egyptian funerary document into you believe in a talking snake sir God can work miracles we're leaving a talk on I don't allow that statement to stand because there is absolutely that can God work mirror you just and God were here okay you to say that data can God work miracles in God work miracles that can God work here identify the fraudulent utilization of an Egyptian can God miracles as a miracle similar to what God would do is unfortunately a level of deception that is very very frightening to me I don't think it is sorry I think it's I think it's fair comparison it mean I think no capacity to be able to check and balance your own statements well I will let the audience decide I won't insult you here's what I will say though about the Book of Mormon we know from many evidences that it is an authentic ancient record it is an objectively true record and I know that and I know that what I will yeah well I could go ahead and finish up ahead so in your book by the way we talk about I know that um you and then in one of your your episodes I watched you actually were quoting Fon Brodie and things like that well that's probably the worst to get true a latter-day saint history you want to get the newest scholarship and not old Craig scholarship and no one likes anymore it isn't true so and that's I'm sorry I'm fortunate old stuff yeah so for the Book of Mormon the way to authenticate being an authentic you know true historical record we would need to see evidence of it in you know linguistic evidence we need to see that there is there is a literary parallel to other ancient texts that Joe has been to not know about we would need to see archaeological evidence and guess what we've got that archaeological evidence do you know what you have a Linda could you show me Linda um I would actually I'll actually give you some right now if that's okay so no no no no Linda I was looking for a Linda I want to carry look if I'm gonna give you what I have so uh are there please is there a Lim na please let me finish please let me finish makeup mate you made a no no no I haven't even made my point yeah I didn't give an examine this statement okay well I'm just gonna read it I'm just gonna read I'm just gonna read February 2018 National Geographic came out with this wonderful new project with unveiled wonderful information about Guatemala and from this we know actually I'd like to quote Thomas garrison of Ithaca College who was on this project he said and this is called light detection ranging where they can basically find what's underground by shooting lasers into and find what was there and this is a wonderful new technology we were using to find out about the ancient world he said among the most surprising findings was the ubiquity of defensive walls ramparts terraces and fortresses warfare wasn't only happening to at the end of the civilization it was large-scale and systematic this matches perfectly with morale and I 49:13 Moroni had fortified and built forts and security for every city and land around a bell I'm not finished I'm gonna I'm gonna I want to continue even highways and there are many highways cast up an attorney five six with horses yeah well I'll get to that later and guess what we find that there were highways so again this is more Book of Mormon things thought not to be true which we now know are true even with sunken cities heck we even have a person verified zenus of the Book of Mormon look Mormon prophet luckily we can go to the biblical antiquities in by file around the time of Christ where they talk about zenus and and and if you would like to learn more about this I would think you all need to go to Book of Mormon central doors so we have NATO a place we've literally verified I can wait Wow allows interaction swords bows and arrows being used with armor I would yes or no well one we at we have found metal yeah not metal well what is it meant by armor you and I both know the armor is different material different countries it isn't just European sense of armor horses as well about that article would they affirm that the people they're looking at engaged in battle on horses with swords to where they could scalp other people the sword yes or no did the does the Book of Mormon say they rode horses yes no there are no horses in the Book of Mormon the horses are in the Book of Mormon but here's here's where I think Protestants get wrong and let me they have swords can I can I respond did they have sort mister dr. Wily's swords you're using are using sword and this end the sense of the word sword or the in the way the sword we know about and like in European in the if you can scalp somebody with it you and I can figure out what it is I mean you can scalp on the sword with an axe with a knife whatever you want to use I mean you can you can use a here's here's a metal gleam I mean we know what Joseph was explained oh well I I well I would love to because it's actually a beautiful beautiful thing I think our evangelical brothers and sisters I think they would love this information and I think your audience would like it a meerkat is not a meerkat hippopotamus in Greek means water hog or water horse for Joseph Smith to say that these were horses this is a it's it's very fair that he saw an animal which they weren't riding there they use them for meat or their grazing is translating and so to say this was a horse one very well could have been an actual horse and there is some archeology coming to back that up the other answer is if it wasn't a horse well it's been around for a while but we're still waiting to really present it full-force saying we know for a fact but we're pretty positive there were horses and actually most Native American legends would agree with that too Native Americans didn't know their history and so we could say it could have been a horse but it's also fair to say if it wasn't a horse within the Book of Mormon they're not riding horses they're not riding them holding swords they're eating grass or they're using them for clothing so it's fair to say he may have seen some animal that you would call a horse and we do that we've done it with animals so much we say we say I'm Buffalo we're talking about northern bison we say a meerkat because it looks like a cat's on a cat we say a seahorse because it's got like that little spout looks like a horse so to say that Joseph Smith meant exactly what you think he meant that isn't fair especially especially with the context of knowing that there is archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon neh home zenus highways fortresses we know these things are true and so it's fair to say they had those in China which means the Book of Mormon action took place in China I'm sorry that is a no no no that is not a better Joseph it was the best guesser of all time yes he was a prophet yes The Book of Mormon has archaeologically accurate information much Lee Africa could you let him respond to no I'm just simply pointing out that this kind of argumentation could be used to prove any know it cans the prob so we cannot it is the specificity of the claims of the Book of Mormon yeah we when I just asked the audience compare the archaeological information that we have for both old and new Testament sites the cities the material culture the for example the Book of Mormon gives us a specific currency that was present amongst these people currency especially when it is made of gold and silver is the longest lasting element of material culture we have never found anything anywhere in North America or Central America not true that has any well name it that's why I must be for a limo so here's why I mean I say to you I was actually talking to a Native American friend who wants a friend but Native American who is allotted a saint and he gets actually gets offended when people go and they try to compare our key all archaeology of the Bible to the book of Mormon boy and I'll say why first reason is to to hold them to the same standard is to pretend that colonisation didn't happen and that your and that Protestant and Catholic people did not murder thousands of Native Americans destroy culture and commit genocide amongst people so one we don't have lineages and history of many many tribes of Native Americans so to say oh the Book of Mormon isn't true because we don't have overwhelming evidence of it one we do have evidence but two to say it isn't true because of that is to discount and say that it's to say that Native American is all of these cultures in the connection come no it's not it is absolutely not historical demonstrate why it is please will you admit it if you're wrong because I'm not getting the feeling that you'll admit to anything that's wrong okay well let's not let's not destruction of the Nephites took place when according a little more it was about fifteen hundred years ago in Monroe neighbors and when did the Spanish arrived here oh boy I don't know if there's I can I can give you the exact date good thousand years later at least nine hundred eight hundred years okay well in the world could they be responsible for the destruction of the archaeological material i laser let me say has nothing to do it doesn't have things that they did I'm actually really happy you at you because I have a grounding to me this is astounding to me oh well you know what good I'm happy I'm happy I'm making you happy so we know when you study civilizations that things are passed down from one civilization to another especially if in the same area of land so Moroni I buried the place yes okay and and we know from new technology that there were these big cities that came to be so if there were these cities if there were was fifteen thousand more people in Guatemala than we thought before and and there were fortresses and highways okay well that that worked with the Book of Mormon he buries it plates the Spanish come in there are all these there are thousands and found millions of indigenous people and Europeans commit genocide and murder many of them I think it's I think everyone would agree that evidences and stories of in legends and things that would connect to our Book of Mormon brothers and sisters in the text I think it's fair to say that a lot of that would be taken away and wiped out because of genocide do you know the number of indigenous people that died during the colonialism period its estimate to be 130 million 130 million innocent people people will say people I mean murdered and then and then diseases spread and these this is a a horrible atrocity and and so it's very right for a Native American who is a lot of a saint to say wait a minute you're saying this book isn't true because we don't have evidence for it guess what we can't back up the history of my people with evidence either he's saying that didn't happen they were murdered that's how that's just Ionis known as well actually I think many people are saying that no one is questioning the existence these people in the past the point so so if the chief comes to you about traditions if it's chief comes to you no no no working about archaeology which we have we're talking about physical reality we're talking about actual coins this has no my gosh do you think it's easier to find a highway buried or a coin that's buried a coin is this big a highway is this big which one you're gonna find finds last forever I have coins from that time how much how much how much of a HMSO maker have we dug up that's where I find it fascinating you know is it well that's right like percentage-wise that's where I'd like to bring what do you want to know the conversation back to something I think that's more fundamental because this is I think an important conversation to have I think well I think it's so I also think there's something more yeah I have a talk for about yeah I know you you're very you're very humbled by and like very nice for letting a spar because I appreciate yeah absolutely so I think one of the things that strikes me as peculiar in terms of when a latter-day saint says that they're representing the same God they gave us the Bible in terms of your argumentation for the Book of Mormon for Joseph Smith is I don't find in anything that you just said in terms of we need to look at the coins archaeology the history the stuff in the Book of Mormon linguistics these sorts of things and that's how we'll know Joseph Smith's a prophet that's how we'll know I think what he's Barrett tells me that's what how we'll know what he says is true what I would point out to you is that if if you represent the god of this revelation then I would say that whatever you're saying your doctor and your teaching needs to be consistent with what this God actually revealed to us so I'll just point out to you think it is consistent because if I could just finish the thought so what I would say is that from the Old and New Testament the the way that God discloses himself to us in terms of how to know his voice how to know if a prophet is from him I don't know if some teaching is true or right is not the way that you just described in terms of testing Joseph Smith via the Book of Mormon God actually says in the Old Testament a number of times I can give you a number of examples Deuteronomy 13 verses one through four five God actually says that even if somebody comes has signs and wonders they come up with an amazing book they come up with this amazing thing it looks beautiful looks real but they lead you after other gods gods which you have not known that's how you know they're a false prophet so God basically says he states and I'll let you respond to all this he states that if somebody comes and it looks legit but their leads you after a different God than me that I've revealed myself to you that's how you know they're a false prophet of course you know Deuteronomy 18 I'm sure you know that one that's the text it says if they have false prophecy they're a false prophet but it goes on Isaiah 8:20 God says to the law on to the testimony if they don't speak according to this word is because they have no light in them and I'll just point you to New Testament just these examples in terms of showing you that Jesus and the Apostles held to this standard in mark chapter 7 Matthew 15 synoptic gospel situation there Jesus is handling controversy in his day where they're condemning basically his disciples for not following the tradition of the elders with 8 which they saw running alongside the Bible as essentially like divine tradition in a sense you got to do these things and what Jesus does is he confronts them because he says Moses says appealing to scripture and he says but you say and he appeals to their side authority running alongside the Bible he says thus you invalidate the Word of God for the sake of your tradition and I would point of course lastly to the Apostles constantly saying what does the scripture say what does the scripture say what does the scripture say in Paul sites what I believe to be one of the earliest Christian Creed's in 1st Corinthians chapter 4 on the same line of this is this is biblical thought and he says in 1st Corinthians chapter 4 believe that's the text he says not to go beyond that which is written not to go beyond that which is written in other words don't go beyond that which is written we're not to as Christians to go outside of what God's revealed word is so the standard from Old Testament to new is the Word of God is the Principia it's the foundation it's the reference point and I just want to point out to you in terms of your defense of Joseph Smith and his revelation you didn't appeal to anything in terms of what does God say you've applied some secondary standard which I would say is foreign to Scripture so well that was like there was a large buffet of things so I'll try to respond to all so the first one is it's not that the the God of the Book of Mormon is didn't from the God of the Bible it's the same God it's just that the Protestant Reformation and the European doctrine of the Bible is not the the true interpretation of it so it's not that we have a different God it's the same guy I just think you folks are a little misread and your understanding of the Bible so I think it's in terms of the verses that I gave well okay so it also says in Deuteronomy you know that you should not add on to this text and things like that and if that was true would discount be the entire New Testament when it says don't add on to the rev Latian it means don't hand in that specific revelation I'm not I didn't bring that up though that's a distortion of anything I mean you just said not to add on did you not I may have misheard you because there's a lot please repeat then I think I may I think I may miss yeah it's the same all of what I just gave you just now from say Deuteronomy to Isaiah to matthew mark and first corinthians with the apostle paul and a number of other references all of it's the same theme so it's not I haven't given you a lot of things to think about if they'd given you one thing to think about in terms of a thematic thing from scripture is it the standard from the biblical authors and inspired prophets and apostles and from Jesus is it the Word of God is the central reference point and it's the thing by which you test and measure any other revelatory claims absolutely I agree and when I was pointing out to you is that you you didn't agree with that earlier in terms of you said the way to test Joseph Smith's revelation is by the Book of Mormon linguistics archaeology these sorts of things and I'm pointing out to you that is not what God says to do to test a prophet he says text them according to his word well thank you actually I'm thank you for saying that I'd like to clarify if I if I gave any false impression the Holy Spirit is what convicts you and and I think anyone who's seen anything I've done knows that that is always why go to first but if you would like to have that oftentimes I talk to evangelicals they want to know they want to say they want they want they want evidence of the Book of Mormon and they want archaeological evidence and I give it to them and they're often like that's not what I work yeah well that's the example I gave I wasn't saying that's how you test the Book of Mormon it's a way evidence is good but evidence alone is just it's just man-made finding if you're if you're if you're discipleship is built by man it'll be destroyed by man as well so I will so know my way to test the Book of Mormon does not hol hold up completely to scientific research it is with the Holy Spirit I mean in terms of Joseph Smith's revelation because when you introduce that subject you said it in terms of knowing whether or not what he said was true yeah and there a good way to test that is the Book of Mormon and there's a spiritual test but if you want to be you know less less spiritual with it and more archaeological with it you can also do that and it wins both its reliable spirit leader man we have evidence we're going on the same course here so in terms of spiritually from this God the disclosure is the same God has disclosed himself he's revealed himself to us God says here's how you're to test a prophet according to my word in my previous revelation so when I look at Joseph Smith's revelation say in the King fall at discourse and I compare that revelation with what God has told us about himself for millennia before Joseph Smith came and revealed himself oh I disagree with even that phrasing so what do you disagree with there I disagree with your phrasing making it sound as if that the Bible just says one thing in the judgement thought a new thing it's it's consider that's what I'm getting to yes so I haven't a chance to express what I'm what I'm getting at so in terms of in in scripture we have revelation from Genesis to sorry a revelation from Genesis to the book of Revelation this spans hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years and all these different authors all the different books and letters and yet there's this unified message and thread from God his own revelation of himself and tells us how to test things how to test prophets and in that revelation God says about himself as an example he says just Psalm 90 verse 2 we can go to a number of other texts we just did John chapter 1 already but a number of other text says from eternity into eternity you are God from eternity into eternity you are God God has been God from all eternity into all eternity now as a Christian when I know that god that's God's revelation that Joseph Smith comes along a 19th century American prophet comes along and says that's what he is long I'm trying to put him in a time line here in terms of when biblical revelation was given and Joseph comes along and he says this he says we've imagined and supposed that God was gone from all eternity I'll refute that idea I take away and do away the veil so that you may see yes now I have a question who's doing the imagining that God has been God from all eternity so well it's a great question first like I said God being all eternally eternity to eternity you can spar back and forth you can say well then olam does not exactly mean the attorney does that mean you know far back as you can think as far back as you can think if you want to get into the Hebrew I'm and then you put in the ancient context of well when they say this you know that you use this kind of language well then other societies are also using this kind of language what does it mean the the the issue I find is that your interpretation of it it's not the wait no no well let me finish my interpretation of eternity to Eternity is not what this means in the English sense in these in the ancient Semitic Near Eastern definition is not eternity in the way we think of it it's not as just forever forever forever with no clear definition of forever and the the confusion of of people coming later and saying well this guess that's what that means and then all God gods in graspable we don't understand God guess it you haven't you can't really have a personal relationship with that you can't grasp all these things Joseph Smith wasn't refuting what the Bible says here's the feuding with the false interpretation of what the Bible says well I think well III I don't agree with you there I think I I would say that he pretty much defines what he means in terms of what he's coming against he says very clearly and this is part of what you believe today you believe that that the father told Joseph Smith had to join none of the churches for they're all wrong all their Creed's are an abomination the professor's are corrupt draw near to me with their lives their hearts are far from me you believe that you believe that it was a great apostasy absolutely you know that Joseph Smith was responding oftentimes to doctrine teaching from the Christian Church so when he says in the King Follett discourse near the end of his life he says that we've imagined and suppose that God was gone from all eternity he says I'll refute that idea and take away and doing it way the veil so that you may see you've got to learn to become God's ourselves the same way all God's had done before you he is most certainly responding to what the Christian Church has been teaching and by the way what Jews had been teaching long before the time of Christ no not us well I think we got to go to the the documents themselves and read here in these in these texts but and I just want to point out to you here that that's the main point of contact in terms of who we're gonna believe what we're gonna believe God the Bible and so because we believe Bob we also believe Joseph okay and that's it that's where the challenge is because Joseph Smith's revelation contradicts notice a revelation from God okay I'll give you a couple examples that that that same Bible says that God is the first the beginning in the end the same yesterday today and forever from eternity into eternity so we're not talking about a single verse is it poetic to what extent it's something that's a thread that runs through and through the revelation of God does white read to you today John chapter 1 where in John chapter 1 it says in our KN Holocaust cuyahoga saying proced on the--on Christ they all say in hollow gaas I'm putting that down on record so people can go research themselves and arcane hollow Gauss go back as far as you want there's no reference point to stopping this is not a doctrine that you can say is it is that that one verse there that's poetic this is a thread through and through where God's grand revelation of himself as this I'm gonna say this to you he is the only true and living God he has been God from all eternity he will be God what does he turn into me everlasting what is ever last forever ago see and this is the issue again Joseph Smith is not contradicting the original Word of God he is the now he says that God became God yes because that's true that thing could happen well and so the in response you just talk you're like five minutes well now now we're exchanging because you're bringing up points in response so I'll respond to what you just said you see the biblical text isn't ambiguous on this point oh yeah many people would disagree with let me know I think it is let me quote the text here then Isaiah 40 let's do a number Isaiah 44 43 10 before me there was no God formed neither shall there be after me I am the first and I am the last you don't believe either of those statements and besides me there is no God and I tell you I can go to the exact same respond to that text and I forty thank you I will I can find the exact same language used in other sessions Isaiah 44 and other civilizations it's it's a way to heighten your covenant with the God it's almost you could call it I'm going to call it your co-anchors nag talk well I just you had until reality dr. white with all due respect you haven't you haven't you have not okay you have said you've said things okay well I'll say I'll say this everybody well I have I have listened to you I've listened to you I've listened to you I just don't think it's the accurate okay you are wrong and here's why you're wrong one of those two of us is wrong I'm saying it's you okay when you quote from a Syrian religion or from Egyptian religion the fundamental reality of these religious systems is that they believed that their gods were derived from the creation they did not believe that that has nothing to do with the language used that's a different subject have no interest in hearing from someone who has studied this subject much longer than you have I would I can I went one more time I want to put one more tight I have listened to you a lot I I do have interest I'm I watched your wonderful everybody let's do his proposal than your risk when you have religious systems that believe their gods were derived from the creation and hence are not the foundation and creator of creation itself you can use all the similar language you want the reality is the biblical writers do not have that foundation the biblical writers do not believe that God came out of the creation from the beginning I've been telling you that what makes Jehovah different is that he's the creator of all things they might not you cannot read with that in their language and they're all false false you absolutely can't show me your abs okay shown all right let's let's do this show me where they believed that their God you are the sole one who made all that exists one alone who made that which is that is talking about this is the gate Cairo him to Amun raw all these soul want to exist that all that exists okay all that exists all that exists you know Egyptian religion you think that that is an extensive claim of creation of everything you dr. white here's what I'm saying dr. white something about Horus hahaha well I I'll tell you what I do know about Horus Horus is often used as an example to show why front from the Atheist perspective of why Jesus is not valid yeah I just agree with that so there are many people like to show some leaders been horse in Jesus I don't think that's very you know I I might be wrong but the point is that if you understand how these gods came to have the positions that they did they did so because of their Dean's and what they did the creation had to pre-exists them again so when they make these statements they are not stationed there that everything that exists is dependent upon since they have plural gods you just asked me quake ooh I want you to find where it says that they made everything that exists and I showed you the thing is I'm saying Valley theistic system where the gods themselves are born from anyway God first of all that to discuss though okay there's a bigger umbrella issue here the umbrella issue here is I believe that the God of the Bible and we got to the book more of the same God do you believe I'm following a different God false God false Christ but here's the issue and I don't mean to derail too much but don't you believe in predestination and things like murder and the Holocaust are predestined to happen because you're a Calvinist don't you believe that God predestined the Holocaust to happen is absolutely positively nothing in this universe that is purposeless God predestined the Holocaust to happen so if is everything horrified by everything that another question here's a problem okay I did okay then you said nothing is universes purpose listen so you're probably gonna say if the Holocaust happened if it didn't happen because God predestined it happened purposely which is purposelessly which is which is even worse I don't know it's worse so that's what you would say if in either if it happens purposes uselessly you think it's better that God wound this universe up didn't see that coming and what oh man there's nothing I can do about it we gives us free agency ah I'm sorry odd is the one with the free agency well I think we have the right I think people can choose but don't you believe do you believe that do you believe that God predestined the sex trafficking that happens in Houston where I'm from again yes or nothing yes Cass yeah so here's here's what I want to give to your audience wait wait wait in my kotor nity is a part of god's sovereign decree which is what a makes it purposeful b makes the redemption that jesus christ accomplishes on upon the cross so specific pick perfect and glorifying to God but do you really believe that though because let's say a little Hindu girl is kidnapped and she let me I will continue a little Hindu girls taken and she's sold into trafficking you believe that happened God predestined her to be trafficked and murdered and then you also believe you also believe she's going to hell after so God predestined her to be tortured let me let me go to hell let me sign it all that but more let me just a major issue I see well I have one more point eleventh that's a major issue because you're saying I believe it from God you believe in a God that predestined and wanted and with glorified but the Holocaust happened I believe is glorified and one it happens in slavery to happen after you this is not if you if you want to go in the same God thing you don't believe I don't believe in God predestined one the Holocaust happened you're right I believe in the true God yes or no I believe I do believe that God planned for the crucifixion to happen I do not believe he planned or wanted for the Holocaust to happen that's the difference between you and I ever anyone more innocent than Jesus Christ well of course not okay so God predestined the horrific crucifixion and murder of the most innocent man who ever existed which means that's significantly greater than any example you've given me because every person you just mentioned was a sinner rightly under the wrath of God you recognize that axschat whoa the Holocaust was the wrath of God every person who dies in this world is under the wrath of God happy for that clarification alright that's what I said well so you accept that the most innocent person in the world was predestined to die upon a gory cross for our dance that's what Acts chapter 4 says but then you struggle that there is a purpose to everything else that someday we will find out I understand no no no no no not purpose that's not what I'm saying I'm saying you believe that everything glorifies God you believe that God predestined everything to happen that's godly death still glorify God in the working out of the redemption that is in Christ Jesus okay was a difference no there is a difference here's the issue though believing that the Holocaust happened not because of man's free agency in the wickedness but because God predestined to and that's a if you ask me I don't like to get I don't think it have no idea we believe uh well I would like to know I don't wanna get into the semantics I don't wanna get to the semantics I think it's different God different God but I do yes I would say it's fair to say that I don't think it necessarily declared the exact same God if you believe that God predestined and and made so little girls and boys are sex trafficked and were murdered and left into hold God doesn't do it and they're not of God they're not of God they're not of God if yeah I mean your God so I happen and just not have a purpose it wasn't smart enough to make thing no recount mankind made that happen no so here's my issue hold on no my turn to step in okay I turn alright so here's what you're here's what you're neglecting to notice is that not only are you promoting a god that is not the god of the Scriptures the God who says he declares the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done saying my purpose will be established and I will accomplish all my good pleasure our God is in the heavens he does whatever he pleases whatever the Lord pleases he does in heaven in on earth in the season and all the deeps that's not the God of Mormonism it absolutely is if I could finish you just said that it wasn't because you said that your gun was impotent and has nothing to do with the Holocaust he see my god I'd do my god quake ooh my God my God declared the end from the beginning and even the midst of a rebellious hostile evil wicked world of people who are at war with the Creator he still was able to sovereignly wield his purposes and control in a fallen world the Holocaust did not surprise my God my God was in charge of God one of the Holocaust to happen oh my god was that he wanted lutely money wanted absolutely determined to glorify himself through everything that happens in this world watch through either his grace or his justice God will be glorified did God want the Holocaust to happen yes or no if if he did not it is a purposeless evil I mean I don't want I want your audience to see this is not quite good not a good Michael I'm answering you and you're not you're not listening dialysis makers regulars here's the problem of housing with you and I mean this with respect to you oftentimes things are set to you and before the words leave my mouth you've already responded before actually hearing what I have to say well to be fair those are doing let me just say to you again not true let me just let me just I'm trying to respond to each and every point you make so what I said to you was that if God didn't determine that then it's something that was purpose less evil in your scheme what happened in the Holocaust was outside of the control of God and it was purposeless evil evil men thwarted your God in in the Bible in the Bible God declares the end from the beginning and he accomplishes his will and purpose in heaven and on earth and no human being no matter how mighty and strong from a human perspective can thwart my god I would love to respond to that and I want I hope your if your audience is still listening because oh boy we've gone for a while you brought up predestination I did bring a predestination and the issue is it's not that my God was the true God the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob the God of the Book of Mormon and the production covenants in the pearl of great price it's not that Heavenly Father was surprised by it Heavenly Father gives us agency to decide what we do because that's an entire part of the eternal process and growing and if we're going to be alive forever we're gonna have to learn choice the issue is God if he would just interject and control all of our agency our existence means nothing we're just puppets and so the and so I want people to to remember that God gives us agency the Nazis the people who lit people on fire the the Calvinist Puritans who burn people at the stake slave owners sex traffic about Mountain God about Mountain Meadows Massacre all I'd love to talk about God does not determine those things God does not want those things to happen that's mankind God did not want the Holocaust to happen God did not want colonialism or slavery to happen and I want everyone watching to know that he have a father in heaven who loves you right Gustav what everyone Oh God stop quake business and will always be on your side Michael listen listen to me I need you to hear me very seriously now you're invited on this show to have a dialogue the one thing you will not be allowed to do on a Christian show is proselytize for the Mormon Church so I'll tell you can defend your position and we can debate but you will not be allowed to proselytize on apologia radio so that's just that's just that's just a warning so you can defend your position you can argue your position but you cannot proselytize on this show what happened well what you sorry haven't I haven't I've been doing that the whole time know you've been do you've been you've been having an engaging conversation with two Christians we've been going back and forth but you will not be allowed to proselytize on this show as though in the same way I would not be able to proselytize for the triune God of scripture on your show oh well we would let yeah we would like yeah fantastic have me over in Salt Lake I'd be happy to do it so I talked about did you have something you want to say okay God does not predestined the Holocaust happened God loves us so so let me just point a couple things out we'll end the show with this you you demonstrated and I hope you spend time working on this area you demonstrated and how you Ellis trated these things that you you don't in fact understand the perform position that you're so you're so strongly arguing against and so I just want to encourage you to spend more time on the subject in terms of understanding what we actually believe because absolutely I do not have a firm I don't have a complete grasp round you don't have you don't have a many many many more hours studying Mormonism and reading the original sources than you have you don't know that so you don't know me doctor why me today what's my birthday then you have horoscope in regards to Christianity again you just you look I think that we've made a lot of us something today I just want to we can a sorry vitamin are you claiming to have done more study of historical Christian theology than I have of Mormonism I don't know your life or anything you've done well no some what you've done I don't know your life I'm not going to make any claims about you as a person or any and are you and what you like I don't I don't want to attack any of your the personality in there and your being I think the problem is you're being so defensive even on minimal points we're trying to make here that really are not and it's not necessary to be defensive over he was just responding in terms of my saying to you that you need to spend more time understanding this because the way that you illustrated I will read all of these I'm so glad you well I mean that seriously but the way you illustrated what reformed people believe about the will of man and choice and everything else demonstrates that you don't I think I haven't spent the time you you can tell you it with all that's in me you you don't and you're reflecting it completely and accurately reform folks I would say the Apostle Paul Jesus and Peter and all the reformers did not believe do not believe that man is a robot that he's not making choices that are willing choices that he wants to make that God is controlling people in terms of making them do things they didn't want to do we believe what the Bible teaches about the will of man where the Bible teaches whoever commits sin is a slave of sin but God does predestined that sin to have hold on yeah well I believe absolutely God's in control of all things I mean so the Bible teaches about the will of man whoever commits sin is a slave to sin the we are dead in our sins and trespasses by nature children of Wrath aware hostile sinners rebels helpless wicked I'm quoting scripture now before God that's our condition so you describe mankind in terms of you talk about a free will but the Bible but agency yes but the Bible talks about the will of man in terms of its enslaved to sin it's dead we are alienated from God hostile towards God that's how the Bible describes our well so all of humanity those who were involved in the Holocaust those who are involved in colonialism and everything else that you described those were hostile rebel sinners against a holy God and they were making choices freely they wanted to do it yeah and when God Oh God actually restrained them that's right God God removes his restraining hands sometimes from the wicked hearts of men sometimes you get the Holocaust sometimes you get Georgia early on in America sometimes you get all of these wicked moments where God removes the restraining hand and you see the evil that is really in men's heart however he removed his a straining hand but he put it forth already he wanted it to happen he predestined it to happen and you believe oh I don't know I I am that's me that's the difference I see I do and here's here's the problem until your heart has changed and your eyes are open you will never ever want to worship a God who is actually sovereign who is actually not like you well it was actually not in the created order like yourself I all I can say just like that I can say to that is that I worship and follow the true God of the Holy Bible and the Book of Mormon and the doctrine covens Pro a great price leave its that's what I mean we will disagree yeah and I don't believe that that God predestined wickedness and evil has to happen evilness gosh I don't believe you've read essent those things I think that is horrid I think that's an evil doctrine and it no way shows that God is loving because it's not accurate I think that and also just to be clear the reformed position well let's test me right now let's see if I got this right well I just want you to know if you're gonna continue this on this is how much time already of about two and a half hours in maybe more so maybe we should we can continue a conversation later and I'd be happy to do it but I just want to know if you open a can of word we're gonna go for like an hour how about this it might be more reasonable that we close it out then yeah let's stop close it out and I've been happy to have you on again or we could even do it by radio conversation have have me on the three Mormons and allow me to proselytize like you just said I could I oh if well how would this I will fight for you to be able to come on to come and preach the biblical gospel in the biblical Jesus preached the reform the gospel but it's only thirteen minutes long yeah that's right yeah we do a short Jesus who is actually the creator of Satan and not his brother well you let me preach stuff she's lost and rather loose for not say yeah well you get you get the point that we're talking about we're brothers so bear brothers right but everyone's also created loser you let me promote that and teach that on the father the son cream Lucifer if you understood the doctor that's Randy you wouldn't be oh I don't think people can understand it mr. whatever it's Jim if you read John chapter 1 verses 1 through 3 and Colossians chapter 1 verses 16 and on you'll see that it says that Jesus Christ created Satan and everything in existence and nothing's come into being except through him that's a difference of not the father the father didn't father son and spirit work together in perfect harmony so then so it's not just she has finished it's all three that created you see it's again it's one God it's kind of dying it is it's the Trinitarian look at that verse so but what we what we're not escaping from as my point was you at you and you said you'd allow me on the show or try to fight for me in on the show to preach that Jesus and I hope that you follow through with that because I would love to do it but I would agree actually I don't so i don't like i can only propose it's a it's you know it's a group of people that's why I understand but please fight for it I will I believe it I'll even pay my own way but John chapter 1 verses one through three in Colossians 1:16 and onwards would I point you to in terms of who the real Jesus is thank you for having the courage to be on the show today thank you so much for coming I'm sorry for that meeting I'm not alright enjoy this there was some there's some tension I didn't want for that oh no no no I we love you and we care about you obviously we're all passionate and I think one of the things I respect about you and I mean this is that you I we've talked about this quite a bit I have wanted for so long to run into the young Mormon that is passionate about their beliefs that wants to go to the mat that wants to defend it because I want to tell you that for the last decade and a half I've been outside talking to Mormons on the streets who are are just not as engaged in as courageous as you are so I want to thank you for that so dr. James white thank you so much brother for being on the show next week very important debate you have in Florida please be praying for dr. white and dr. Michael Brown they're gonna be bringing the gospel into a very difficult context please be praying for that lift them up and I I have to tell you how I'm really fighting again my sanctification is happening right now because dr. white bought you the most amazing Bible ever and I don't have a Bible that doesn't even have on I don't even have one like that was a gift it's a huge exit it's an amazing gift you don't understand those men over there right now like drooling over that gift that you have on the table right now so guys Alpha Omega ministries calm and I hope you make it I hope you make it out of the studio that's right yeah even a little there's a little big they're trying to grab it so three Mormons quake ooh thank you so much for watching thank you everybody of what everybody's indeed live oh my much the whole time yeah thank you for watching guys make sure you guys share it we'll catch you guys next time an apology a TV or a radio sorry go to apology of studios.com for more thank you you

Channel: Apologia Studios

Views: 337,426

Rating: 4.6116266 out of 5

Keywords: jeff durbin, apologia studios, apologia church, 3 mormons, mormonism, i am a mormon, mormon tabernacle choir, mormonism exposed, secret footage mormon temple, jeff durbin mormon, james white mormon, joseph smith south park, joseph smith false prophet, james white debate, apologia radio mormon, mormon missionary walks away, james white mormon debate, christian mormon debate, can men become gods, james white calvinism, kwaku 3 mormons, apologia radio, 3 mormons refuted, mormon

Id: 1XbJ3954HW8

Length: 148min 33sec (8913 seconds)

Published: Fri Aug 31 2018

Reddit Comments

[u/US_Hiker]

Unlike most religions, Mormonism can be entirely disproven purely on historical terms. Far far easier than on theological terms. I'd recommend not using the theological approach, since there's far more defenses there.

[u/LHRoss]

James White, Jeff Durbin and a Mormon manage to make Mormonism look good. One Mormon does well in a two against one scenario, arguably comes out on top.

Is Jeff Durbin supposed to be a moderator?

[u/Natefil]

Was watching some Apologia Studios productions and this debate popped up. I have to say that I think White and Durbin came off far worse in the debate. Not only did the Mormon come across as more charitable than White but also was correct that White was not grasping his actual objections.

While the Mormon was wrong in his positions, White seemed to be arguing so as to get people who already agree with him to nod their head in assent rather than actually deconstruct the position of the opposition.

Had to stop watching it towards the end as I just got increasingly frustrated with the attitude of White.

[u/X-cessive-leader]

I'm an exmormon. I say this because I was hoping to see kwaku get destroyed. Unfortunately, the only thing this "debate" did for me was to reinforce the absurdity of the bible. I'm happy I no longer have to mental gymnastic my way through theology.

Lol @ kwaku, but lolz @ Dr. White. I'm also aware how mature I sound, but I did just watch this 2 hour "debate." I am now dumber and may God have mercy on my soul.