Engaging "3 Mormons" w/James White

the omen animal you don't chastise chickens for being delusional you don't chastise pay you call me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay it doesn't really hurt desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men the careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men lauding them for their courage go into all the world and make disciples not going to will make buddies not to make broseph's right don't run the world make homies right disciples we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not [Music] [Music] welcome back everybody to apologia radio this is the gospel heard around the world we are coming at you guys from a very crazy kind of post-apocalyptic Arizona Phoenix Arizona right now alright last night was amazing what's hydropower get back on in the morning when I woke up yeah yeah it was are you serious what you went the whole night with no air conditioning no it was it wasn't too bad I mean the weather was kind of cool outside being thanks to the rain and everything but I was out driving last night probably around 6:30 and all of a sudden I could see in the horizon like this black cloud coming kind of come towards Scottsdale and it was right there boom go whoo boob the dust storm just hits and next you know it was about like say about 20 feet in front of me and I like I better get home and pretty much every single stoplight on the way home was out yeah and everyone's just kind of trying to figure it out and wing it no police or nothing it was just I got to get home and as soon as I got to my apartment it was like EMP everything's out yeah block yeah it's well guys so yeah Arizona right now this time of year is actually really interesting July August we get a ton of monsoons we get haboobs which it looks like the end of the world like this massive huge black cloud rolls across the valley and it doesn't seem so bad sometimes when you see it coming and you're actually in and it's not crazy but sometimes it is like it's like blacking out so yeah you can't really tell if it's a really bad one right he'll like all the trees are falling down that's right yeah and they're everywhere right now yeah I mean that happens every single year where and people who aren't from here they'll see the pictures of the dust storms with the haboobs and they'll be like this is how do you guys even live they're so dangerous and we don't even think anything of it yeah in fact I think it was about two years ago there I posted a screenshot from the new Mad Max movie where they're driving into the giant dust storm and I said man these Arizona her boobs are ridiculous yesterday and someone actually said oh my goodness what part of Arizona was that Mike hmm and people were just laughing I didn't say nothing but it was kind of amusing that reputation that we have well yeah it's wild it's crazy so I'm just sharing this across the social media which encourage you guys all do right now we are going live right now I was I was I thought I was special for a moment I dr. White's a special guest today and he sets down I was like yeah so it's our new set I was like n we livestream our show now he'd no comment he was like because he's he's like yeah I've been doing he's like welcome ready welcome to the real world boys yeah we've been live since 1998 or so somewhere around there so we're never catching up no we're behind okay we don't we don't have this stuff I have swords and leather-bound Greek many texts many leather-bound books mahogany yeah I have the 1550s the fondest I know I know I know I know we like ours cute I think some weapons along the wall would touch yeah it really would I thought we gotta do something for this side and this side maybe we should you know gesto Scottish claymores yes right across there absolutely awesome or many of the weapons that are currently in the studio or hey or a Klingon bat'leth thing oh of course something yes so I'm Jeff Durbin that is Nostradamus right there glad to be using here on hold you ready Oh a long time how long has it been it's been a while yeah been a while scrubbing it back and I just want to say - since we're a live stream today I excited to really bring up a relevant issue so I'm doing a little product placement today I have here a plastic straw yeah so that way people I just want to let people know where I stand I think we're a lot of Stan regards to economic freedom yes that's right and I'll leave with that so I'm excited to be here and you know you know you and me we'll be talking a lot more soon about that's right we concerned things no no it's not - at the show very special thing we're gonna be doing very very soon Jerry and I will talk about that this is joy the girl right here guys hi there my straw is a reusable straw but I'm okay but yet is plot you're still accepting a fury yeah I'm fine I didn't even think bad things don't even notice it what happened Christian worldview which is many more it's a whole lot worse wait what brought so much more plastic so um she Logan's right now is doing great Shia Logan's calms everyone goes you and some are actually coming here to the studio to record your next step on Friday yep and and why is making meatballs yeah Clementine and that's who come to my house actually Friday morning I think why you guys are recording yeah very excited about that and of course dr. James White's Alpha Omega ministry is a o Meno RG in the dividing line you guys know him well he is one of our heroes he's on here a lot so welcome good to be here um we called you in because I ran into an interesting Channel it is called make sure cat that's right it's just three Mormons that's what's called yeah so it's on YouTube it's called three Mormons it's a complete hoping it was called just three Mormons yeah just three yeah more than three more minutes which is where sometimes there's only two of them on there so I don't know I can't figure out who the third Mormon actually is because it's not it just kind of changes but it's it kind of like kinda like the review and the Trinity I just kind of changes around you know so yeah well it's difficult into this channel three Mormons and infinite immediately struck me a dino did you show me this Daniel showed me Daniel Shults he's behind the cameras right now I ran into it and what immediately struck me is that I'm a huge fan of good mythical morning I love good mythical morning my kids love good mythical morning they were the dudes they used to work for VeggieTales correct they'd sang stuff I think so yeah that's right and so now they have a super popular internet show it's actually really fun to watch they do some interesting challenges and just a cool concept anyway this thing is a complete knockoff of good mythical morning that's the first thing that struck me I was like it's like literally how it starts the intro thing and just a lot of things so immediately I was like okay that's familiar to me but the the thing that got me immediately and they admit to this is that this is a show that they proselytize they're trying to encourage people to join the Mormon Church so with that maybe the third Mormon is always the viewer like they're like maybe maybe maybe it's you that's right hopefully so three Mormons prophet eyes and they have a lot of interesting clips and segments one of them on the Trinity and so I hit up dr. white and asked him I said hey you want to do something on this and so we and in the process of agreeing to that and deciding to do this we found some more shows and that had to do with do Mormons believe that they can become gods there was also another show and it had to do with is God married and so we talked about it and so we're gonna do the show today and we're gonna review some of the things they say and I guess I'll give it to you for a moment and maybe sort of like kind of introduce the whole subject maybe for somebody who is watching right now they have no idea that the differences between Mormonism of Christianity we have our YouTube channel has kind of blown up lately and we have a lot of people that are subscribing that are brand new believers and may have just no context to this so well it's interesting I was just up in in Salt Lake City and did a dialogue with fellow up there many of all read who is not like these guys yeah okay so we've been dialoguing for four Oh decades now and well we even we started dialoguing before these folks were born yeah let's put it that way so that's that's how long that's been going on and talk a lot of folks up there and your name is is very well-known in Salt Lake City oh I had a lot of people come up and and either they had found you through me or they found me through you right but a lot of former Mormons that mentioned the two of us together in in their journey out of Mormonism that's saying of course you've gotten to do that primarily through electronics you didn't have to drive that drive that's right give up the i-17 yeah up the 89 through Page Kanab across the 20 I think it is up these hills and then the 15 and staying at Motel 6 36 times over 18 years which is what us old folks did dr. white earned it back and I mean I almost got to debate Brigham Young so I mean that's how long but no it was it was exciting to be up there to do that and to hear what's going on and so listening to these young folks they seem like wonderfully nice kids yes but they they are kids and it just struck me really really strongly that they do not see their faith as it developed over time in other words they don't they it was very clear that they've heard this stuff you know BYU firesides or whatever else it was and they don't see how stuff is connected but then again how many people in the current generation see how stuff is connected in any religious faith including your own that's one of the great battles that we have to fight that's right and so they'll they'll affirm the truth of something and not see that that developed from this which developed these two things and actually for a while Joseph Smith believed this and then he changed over this and the historical context that stuff and how the Book of Mormon doesn't contain almost anything that we're going to be talking about today and how Joseph Smith didn't believe any of that stuff until 1835 1836 at the earliest probably close to 1837 the historical development the relationship of doctrine and teaching just it's just not there and so it's understandable how they come to conclusions they come to but my I hope they'll listen to this I really have a feeling they probably will I hope so I hope so I hope they'll listen to this and really start doing some some more serious reading and maybe listen the other side yeah and and now in fact I'll just have a challenge for them when I first started studying Mormonism I was about their age and I was challenged by elders read and race and yes I did read Christian books about Mormonism first but very very very quickly you know like here's here's a book on Mormonism is the more of my brother of course I wrote it but if you very very quickly I saw constant references to Mormon sources and so I started to go get the Mormon sources right one LDS book and supply store which isn't there anymore and I started buying these and I remember the day I bought the Journal of discourses and and strapped it on to a motorcycle and somehow got that 26 volumes in the slip case it was a paper bag for 26-6 my it was a 28 26 but it's in the slip case and it was 69.95 that's how long ago this way I mean that's pretty good price that's a really good price yeah and I started reading you know marvelous work and a wonder in articles of faith and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith a Mormon doctrine Bruce mcConkie and I consumed thousands of pages of LDS literature yeah because what I was reading in the Christian books I'm like wow that's really way out there is that really what they're saying right yeah and and so I can just honestly say I know both sides and over the years and going to the General Conference 18 years in row 36 times of the General Conference and and having literally witnessed to more than 5,000 LDS missionaries during that time period as well as of course the the Easter pageant for years and years and years again I don't remember what year you first you first came but in 696 so it's weird okay so we started home 86 or 80-85 yeah yeah and in fact my first year out there was 83 this the 60 stopped a country club the first time I came out I was 5 years old when you started coming ok ok I guess that gives you an idea believe me I'm I've got so my grandchildren coming tomorrow so I feel really old anyway so been doing this for a long long long long time we've listened to the side and these seem like really bright young people I just would really challenge them listen to the side yeah and in fact make an offer right now for each one of them that wants that would be willing to read letters from Mormon elder and this is more of my brother my books on the subject contact us we'll send them to you that's right Reid we ain't gonna show up on your doorstep but we'll send them to you and we'll you know and I will will throw in Mormonism shadow reality I'm sure at least a PDF version of it's easy to get to somebody I just had I just by the way just in passing had lunch with Sandra while it was up there did you Oh paddy had a grand old time because she remembers the first year that we drove up there overnight three of us and hid her place in the morning got changed and stuff at at her place and then spent all day at the temple and then drove back that night that's how young we were yeah I'm still almost killed us no sleep and still almost kill I mean that was southern Utah when you haven't slept for 30 some-odd ours is very very dangerous we only did that one time but she remembers we first started coming up there and in doing that type of stuff and she's just a wonderful lady we'll provide all that information join him if they if they would like to do that so the point being that in listening to what they were saying they were very confused about what Christians believe and sorry and so I will throw in the Forgotten Trinity yeah my book on the Trinity because they think were modeless they think their description of the Trinity is just as errant as Joseph Smith's description of the Trinity was in the Book of Mormon because Joseph Smith clearly was a mode list he didn't understand it either so I can understand why they understand it if Joseph Smith didn't understand it and that's the extent of their study yeah well throw all those things in but in listening to them I really really think that if they would hear the basic issues which would be this basically for example they quote from Irenaeus a quote from athenais shisei quote from early church fathers as if there was early church beliefs like theirs what they need to understand is that the key issue between Christianity and Mormonism is the nature of God and it is their belief that God was once a man yeah that's the issue nobody nobody in the early church believed that God the Father was once a man who lived on other planets so every citation you come up with any anything you do with Irenaeus or anybody else they all said there was only one true eternal God he had always been God he had never been anything but God and you say well what about Jesus well the gospel is not that men can become gods but that God became a man in the person of Jesus Christ and that is a unique a unique event that's right it's not something that has been repeated on literally billions and billions and billions and billions of worlds in billions of universes yeah so that is the fundamental issue and they sort of make fun of the idea well polytheism monotheism look those are fundamental basic categories and if you can't read the king falls down to this course and here Joseph Smith talking about a plurality of gods then you're not listening to what he's saying and you're not interpreting him in the context in which he actually lived in the conflicts that defined him over against his opponents at that time you'd go back and you know I just recently again I still try to keep up with stuff I haven't finished it yet I need to get back to it but I'm about halfway through Bushman's what's called Russ stone rolling it's it's Bushman's out of autobiography biography of Joseph Smith and when you look at the opposition that Joseph Smith had met or people like Edie how and Mormonism unveiled things like that very that period of time they're not talking about the nature of God because Joseph Smith had not yet developed write this concept he had he tells no one about a plurality of God's in the first vision until the middle of the eighteen 1830s more like 1837 1838 that's a time period that is a concept that develops primarily concurrently with the with the michael h chandler visits in the Book of Abraham yep I read all the rest that kind of stuff yeah and so this is this is a evolution on the part of Joseph Smith over time but what Mark's Mormonism today is the later Joseph Smith not the earlier Joseph Smith a specific unique stuff yeah he starts getting into temple stuff and endowments and stuff but it takes the form that it has today with the concept of becoming gods as they these and those talked about yeah at a later period of time and that is a fundamental issue and they need to understand Christians have never believed that and it is a fundamental denial of the teachings of the Bible itself it's a black and white issue right that's why there has to be the subjugation of the Christian scriptures to the LDS scriptures and allowed a revelation to reinterpret the text of the especially the Old Testament but the entirety of the Bible to fit into those things and so so just on that point when they say Mormons will say we believe the Bible like it says translate our as a trendline translate it correctly but what's interesting about that claim is it like many other religions they'll say well we believe the Bible this is a standard for us but then they have this external Authority or standard that runs alongside of it right here and though they'll give lip service to the scriptures and say we believe that's God's Word it's divinely inspired but we have this other standard over here that runs alongside but what tends to happen every single time is that other standard always eats the Bible up it destroys it well interestingly enough in Mormonism you have a a Bible look-alike right that that moves you over just a little bit but doesn't contain the vast majority of LDS doctor I mean you want you can top that and that's because Joseph Smith didn't believe the vast majority of LDS doctrine when he wrote the book of Mormon 1830 and that then acts as a a gateway you know we talked about gateway drugs well this is this is the gateway revell a revelation you then move you over into the Doctrine and Covenants and even then the earlier revelations yeah you know weird here we're there but not this stuff but then into the hardcore stuff that you end up with in the Pearl great price in the temple ceremonies which many LDS leaders have described as revelational themselves which is why when they changed radically the endowment ceremony which they have a number of times a lot of Mormons get really upset because well is this revelation or is it not revelation and and you know if you're taking stuff out was it true before is it not true anymore you know there's all sorts of issues about that and these kids would not even be old enough to have ever experienced one of those radical changes right right there have been two major revisions of the endowment ceremony in my lifetime maybe a third but I think I think primarily just two but over the past hundred years Wow if you went back to what it was a hundred years ago much more explicit much more mockery of Christian pastors in the clayman and these guys seem to be sort of the Gen X millennial totally yeah you know we're not putting anybody down if they went back and looked at how the temple ceremonies showed Christian pastors in years past they'd be stunned mm-hmm but they probably have never heard of anything like that yeah that's pretty common now as you see you see groups of people or religions and they're kind of they've kind of like defamed oh you're great yeah yeah and it's because we live in this like culturally that's what people are drawn to that's what you want to like put out so that you're not making anyone feel bad yeah it's sort of like in Christianity - oh yeah absolutely we're having exact same thing going on in Christianity as well which is a bit of a bit of a bummer on that um yes but most definitely there I mean I've commented over and over again when we first started going out to the to the Easter pageant we would be hoarse by the end of the week because the conversations would be constant and you didn't have to trip people up you didn't have to come up with a really cool sign you know try to trick somebody into talking with you when we'd up to the general conference first time we had a line of Mormons waiting to talk to us Wow we had a line yeah that is not how it works and by an expression imagination and and back then the young kids the nine and ten-year-olds yes would be arguing theology with you yes they would be arguing the plurality of God's with you that was yeah 96 that was half and it's even more so and already in the late 90s I saw the change happening you start in the mid 80s Wow I mean it was a completely different world now you talked to missionaries who are pretty much clueless yeah about stuff like oh and they don't want to they don't want to get anything where they're saying this is right or this is wrong in fact in the 80s when I first started studying them when the missionaries come in came in they would start with Joseph Smith's first vision testimony yeah including even in the little I still got the pamphlets they gave out including his statement that they're all all wrong nominees nomination and and professors are corrupt at such etcetera yeah so they don't do that anymore that's not gonna happen anymore so things have changed radically yeah well I was just gonna mention I talked to you a little bit about this before the show but my first interactions with the LDS school that I went to I was one of the 2% of the charter school Mesa mile way from the Mormon temple that was almost complete yes but um there was just they were they had a level objectivity to what they believed in fact when I remember one of the first conversations I had was this guy named Greg Clark and you said so you know what the great apostasy is isn't it you know that you're part of that right so you took me right into the verse and Thessalonians except there come a falling away first and you know these kids in these videos they're probably about as old as we were when me and you and Jeff went all went out to the temple and you know met each other but um just to talk about the changing world of Mormonism just the dramatic postmodern shift I've almost III kind of coined the phrase I think you mentioned in one of your videos it's almost as if you have to convert the Mormon to Mormonism before you even bring up the gospel I use that all the time yeah yeah and now it's almost as if I have to use Joseph Smith's claims of the first vision that he had that all the other careers a restoration all the other churches all the Creed's were corrupt all the all the churches were wrong and so and I almost have to use Joseph Smith's claims as a way to counteract their post-modernism and just yeah so just the shift in regard remember just going out there initially with your tracks and even before the iPads eventually having to get put stuff in a backpack pack and backpack I have arthritis yeah we had to put in more medina not have to do that we first started you did not have to carry an LDS library allowed around the people you talked to knew what they believed but remember again when I first started there was like three and a half million Mormons and now there's like 15 and they did a 16 they did a really lousy job of catechesis to use our terminology there there but there's also been a fundamental change at the in the leadership a fundamental change in how the the church leadership view is how to make converts everything else and it's killing the church I mean anybody who looks past just the surface level numbers realizes the back door of the church is now bigger than the front door and it's gonna lead to crisis and it's gonna lead to splits and so on and so forth that's that's a whole nother issue we haven't even played anything they've said so far so this will lay down right right it's vitally important yeah and and but but the point is they haven't seen these changes they don't know right they don't know the Bruce armor conky's maybe if they go back and read some or if they just read Mormon doctrine I think Mormon doctrine will sort of like to go whoa man that guy's it's pretty harsh yeah that's read read read Brigham Young read the Journal of discourses reading those things that's a classical Mormonism and what they're getting is the kinder gentler edited down version which still is incoherent and is still not get bring you eternal life because you've got the wrong God and the wrong Jesus that's the most important thing we need to communicate but why it's almost almost harder to get to that now dealing with the Mormon who is not doing the there are save to churches on earth the church and lamb the Church of the devil we be the church and lamb and you be the Church of the devil that's right that gives you a foundation upon which to say here's truth here's error let's get down to it and that kind of an attitude is is is really backing off and again a lot of it's just giving and capitulating to the society yeah and it's subjectivism and it's it's secularism so anyways that's what I heard is I listen to this I heard young people that are very very excited about their faith but who have only heard one side of the story and have some major inaccuracies that they need to deal with and I hope they will absolutely so for us so if you're watching this now and you are latter-day saint we want you to know that we care for you deeply and we want you to know the truth and for us it is not the side issues little differences in terms of whether or not you should have a beard obviously you know where we fall on that one I did see that show it's it's not the little differences it is the fundamental issues in terms of the God that we worship who is god we talk about Christ when we talk about the Holy Spirit we're talking about the nature of God and when we talk about what's important for us we're talking about the gospel itself how is a person reconciled to God and if you are from this modern context and generation you might think well these differences don't matter and you know it's just semantics and in the Gospels the gospel Jesus as Jesus I want to encourage you to just check out one little piece of the Bible and that is the book of Galatians it's really a letter the Apostle Paul wrote and I want you just to read that it's just a just a few chapters and it won't take you long to get there but I want you to see the inspired apostle dealing with an issue in the first century not very long after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus where you have people who were named in the name of Christ and they had distorted the gospel itself and it was on really what some people might find a very small issue like what's a big what's the big deal it's a small issue it's just not just circumcision I mean just that one part and Paul says false gospel anathema on you eternal condemnation and you're under a curse and crisis of no benefit to you and that was just a teensy little issue some people might say but it's enough to lose your soul over and so we're gonna deal with this today I want to there's so much we'd love to do and and just really work through all these we want you to know that we're doing this in concern for you and I'd love for you love for God and love for your demands that we would care enough about you to really engage this issue so I'm gonna actually play a piece of the first one it's do Mormons believe they can be gods and I will just say at the beginning of this one thing I found interesting was I think somewhere in at the end of this video we may not get to it but near the end of the video they after mentioning all this they say but you know we like we never even talked about this in sure it's like it yeah we talked about it yeah I thought it was interesting it's like it's almost like this is obviously I can't see into your heart so please don't take this as I'm telling you the way that it is but I think it signifies something about the image of God and you something that you know about the true nature and character of God that you know that this isn't true and it's blasphemous and it's an affront to a holy God and blame these well and it's not even consistent Smith I mean let's be honest in the king follow a few others course which by the way is the most commonly cited teaching of Joseph Smith outside of quote-unquote scripture so when they when the when the General Authorities the Mormon Church quote Joseph Smith the thing they quote the most often down through history has been the king fall at funerals course so to try to say that that's secondary or non authoritative or something makes a mishmash out of the whole concept of modern day revelation but in the king fall if you notice courses he says it is the first principle of the gospel to know the character of God yes and to know that we may converse with him as one man converse with ya that God the Father was a man who once lived on a planet this there right in the modern context that this is more discussed in the celestial room in the temple which they may have not been in yet but what does that tell us about Mormonism in Christianity God wants to be worshipped for who he is he has revealed himself so he can be worshipped in spirit and in truth so why wouldn't if this is true and Joseph Smith is right this is the first principle gospel why isn't the first principle that's being spoken of from the from the pulpit of the General Conference every session yeah yeah good point alright guys so play through this just tell me to stop and I'll I'll pause it so here we go and we get this up here idea that we can become like our Heavenly Father much like how a child is supposed to become like his father he's supposed to grew up we have that same potential we have this divine nature and divine potential right but we should probably cover what God is yeah exactly so lots of denominations have different thoughts on what God is and what the nature of God you know what that entails we believe that God created us in His image - stop stop stop no they don't explain that a lot of Christian terminology here and and I'm I'm really a little bit stunned that they would say that it is very very plain that in Orthodox LDS teaching God does not create creatio ex nihilo out of nothing God cannot say be and there is matter is eternal and a deity in Mormonism can only organize pre-existing matter cannot bring into existence maybe they just don't know this maybe they haven't done enough reading and Joseph Smith and his his cosmology to get this but this is not a questionable issue again go watch the dialogue I just did with Alma he was clear on that matter and he used the proper terminology that they are not using because he's well aware of what the actual historical theology is but a lot of Mormons today look there are certain beliefs I have a whole chapter in is more my brother on the the fact that God the Father begat the body of Jesus with the Virgin Mary right a sexual act large number of Mormons today have no earthly concept of that yeah even though I can show you a material that was published by the church 20 years ago that was meant for family home evening that presents it in great clarity yeah they don't know about it today yeah and so the church can change its teachings by de-emphasizing certain things and maybe there's been a de-emphasis upon this but anybody who who reads Joseph Smith knows he denied the idea that God can create anything so you're using Christian terminology and maybe these folks interpret it in the same way I I've only listened to these three videos that you link me to yeah it's only 30 minutes worth of stuff so right so in terms of that the important aspect and Jerry and I talked about this we've talked about us in a few episodes um the the first part of dr. Walter Martin's book I thought that really hit me early on as a young believer was scaling the language barrier understanding that when we're dealing with different religions cults what-have-you you may have a co-opting of terminology but I use the same terminology but we have to get through that terminology and say okay now what do you mean so for example as this opens up I want to take a lot of time on this just quickly when you have a Mormon explaining and this is the most popular way to explain it on the street that God wants us to be like him like our Heavenly Father he wants us to be like him wouldn't you want what doesn't the father want his son to be like him so understand that that is is not an appropriate way to handle this issue in terms of really properly defining it because she would say of course our Father in Heaven wants us to be like him in terms of righteousness and holiness to obey Him but that's not really what we're talking about what what Mormonism teaches is that God was once a man who had gods before him who progressed to become a God of this planet said all the same species the same species he has goddess wives he produced us sexually the pre-existence and on and on now the story begins his shift is that what our Heavenly Father says he wants us to be like that's the question yeah well just even in regards to the language barrier that's a big thing to but just just an example of if you're talking to a Mormon a verse that they would given the language barrier first John chapter 3 verse 2 says beloved now are we the sons of God and it doth not yet appear what we shall be but we do know that we when we when he shall appear we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is any Christian who reads I don't know any Christian who's ever read that me like oh my gosh I'm gonna become a god what are you kidding me but I've seen countless employers that they'll use that language to the Mormon that filter that they look through in their worldview they come to that conclusion and say yes we shall be like him oh snap got it yes we ran to lodge it's the ontological chasm that exists between the eternal uncreated God and anything that is created that is missing in Mormonism because they they don't have a deity in the sense of historical classical theism right when you have an exalted man when God men and angels are all the same species just at different places in the process of exaltation that is so far removed from anything that Christians have ever ever believed it's interesting that in the second video one of the reasons I wanted to get to that not know if we'll get to it today but hey I've got a program I could do the same thing yeah I can expand upon this anytime I want to and I go for as long as I want that's right um but when they actually ended up going to nag Hammadi and to gnostic sources right to try to substantiate it's like don't you realize Gnosticism was the greatest enemy of the early church right it is the essence of paganism and and you if you're going to that you're saying a whole lot about what your fundamental beliefs really dealt with the New Testament well even presuppositional II when you look if a Mormon is going to try and even use legitimate church fathers as sources to back up their points one of the fundamental flaws even with using that according to the prism according to the Mormon worldview is that all those church fathers that they're quoting from us from the time thirty when they when the the apostasy happened so why are you how do you why are you trying to quote for something that's authoritative when there was no authority and God took that away and and and out of context many times so here we go it's our literal spiritual father he created us we came to earth through our parents of course but the plan of salvation or our purpose on earth was designed by him you know he is the one that looks over us in the heavens and we believe that he has a Celeste realized body okay he's a resurrected being yes he's a man he's like us he's a glorified man so something really interesting about this idea of God being a man and us being his literal children it's not it's honestly not a new idea it's not like we the Mormons just invented it this is an eternal truth the Apostle Paul talks about this in acts we are the offspring of God made in his image it's a beautiful beautiful thing okay alright obviously obviously quoting from acts 17 and the the encounter of Mars Hill where or Paul is drawing from pagan literature to make a particular point which is not the point that they are attempting to make here whatsoever he is saying that the God is not made of stone he's not an idol he doesn't live in your in your temples etc etc but to take that and then ignore everything that Paul taught about the nature of God about his eternality about really his triune nature which are going to be denying anyways because they don't understand what the Trinity is but to isolate that and attach to this and say well see people of our always believe this again unless you can show me where anybody in the New Testament or any of the early church fathers would say yes God the Father was once a man who progressed to the position that he holds today then you've got no foundation to be trying to draw any parallel to these individuals I mean it's just to be honestly it's dishonest it is it is absolutely dishonest when I when I for example talk about the conflict that existed between Orson Pratt and Brigham Young I'm gonna try to read or some Pratt and Brigham Young in the context in which they lived in the words that they use I'm gonna try to be honest with them I do the same thing when I'm dealing with Islam I'm gonna try to be honest with what Muhammad actually did not stay or what wrote or did not write or dictate or didn't dictate or whatever I'm gonna be honest with the Quran when I'm dealing with it you've got to be honest to these things and to be honest with any of the petrusha courses or any of the sources of the older New Testaments if you can't find that they shared with you this idea that God is of the same species as man than any of the quotes you're providing are irrelevant completely irrelevant I know you've probably heard these at BYU firesides but the fact the matter is not only because of the of the apostasy which is relevant as well but simply there is a massive category distinction here when they say oh we're not the ones that made this up I don't know of anybody in history that has had the unique combination of beliefs that Joseph Smith developed in 1830s I just don't oh yeah that tried to try to hold together a some type of affirmation of the Bible and Christian theology with this idea literally of polytheism on a level that we can't begin to conceive of that has led at least his followers since then to posit an eternal number of deities an infinite number of deities I should say together with the idea the guide men and angels are all in the same in the same spectrum or two to quote the the celestial marriage manual from 1992 that specifically says in speaking to a human being it says you were never created you are not a created being and you cannot be destroyed that is to me Mormonism speaking and saying see you got man angels were all the same species right and the biblical teaching is you have a Potter and you got the pots yeah and there is a vast difference between the Potter and what he makes right and if you don't if you don't see that then you haven't even started at the most basing distinction of biblical teaching so just just in terms and we don't think along in this just give it a minute long burst just as a foundational in that what I just did yes I know I'm saying for all of us who sort of pushed through this when when they talk about God being a man but the body of flesh and bones who has it gone before him notice it didn't say they notice they did not say body of flesh and bones with flesh flesh they said celestial eyes and exalted I almost asked you to stop there because I do wonder if that doesn't reflect again a new modern spin yeah because when you think about what Joseph Smith really said that God got is a body of flesh and bone but no blood because flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of heaven I mean that that only shows Joseph Smith's utter incapacity to do even basic exegesis but it's it doesn't I don't know it doesn't pop it doesn't seem to communicate but and exalted celestial body well that wasn't that it sounds is Annette doctrine covenants 130 22 or talks with the nature of God the Father has a flesh tangible so in terms of just a comparison quickly because we don't want to say we're coming out this from the position of our own personal interpretations and we love the church fathers and there are standard and historic orthodox christened dome that's our thing we're just trying to defend that but we're talking about what has God revealed in his word long before Joseph came along about himself just a quick burst give me so that if somebody's watching this now and maybe they're a Mormon or they're Christians and they're new believers and then understanding what are we saying in terms of God's previous revelation about himself that flatly contradicts his idea well the first was the only thing that you have to start with with with Mormonism is the reality that not only is God eternally Psalm 90 verse to the song of Moses before the mountains forever those formed the earthen world even from everlasting to everlasting thou art God they want to say well this is just about this dispensation it's about just about this earth the scripture never makes any statement like that at all I would challenge these young men to open their minds and to read the trial the false gods tweet Isaiah 40 and 48 yes those chapters where God is going right after the false gods are some of the greatest revelation of who God is because by contrasting the error with the truth the truth has made all the brightest so Isaiah 40 through 48 those chapters absolutely devastate things but let me just give you one example of that and that is Isaiah chapter 44 verse 6 thus saith the Lord and that's ello Rd in capitals you can look at the Bible dictionary in the this is the quad you can look it up in here LRD and all capitals is Jehovah Yahweh is a better pronunciation but since we're talking with Mormons will use Jehovah thus says Jehovah the king of israel and his redeemer Jehovah of hosts I am the first and I am the last beside me there is no God than verse 8 fear you not need to be afraid haven't I told you from that time and have declared it your even my witnesses is there a God beside me yeah there is no God I know not any now here's the challenge is fighting men yes his challenge I have these young men it didn't sound to me like they're pretty I couldn't tell but they didn't make any mention of having gone through the temple or holding the priesthood themselves other than the ironic priest oh that one guy had gotten his patriarchal blessing but I would think they would be old enough that I would think these guys who claim them ok so increased I would think they at least it to have their endowments themselves maybe maybe so I don't know if you go through the temple ceremonies and you observe what is taught there even to this day I can go to youtube right now it the people have gone through with the little mini cameras you can watch the entire thing it's all available on YouTube and so we know what's there in the creation room in the creation sequence is what they would call it now it used to be in the old temples you'd go from room to room to room you had two creation room then you get up you get to another room and had different things paying the wall now you stay in the same place and they changed the scenes in the wallets much more efficient use of space but anyway in the creation room you can and I've played this just recently on the dividing line to play the audio of this Elohim God the Father commands Jehovah and Michael to go down and organize the earth and as you listen you hear three voices speaking Elohim speaks to Jehovah who is accompanied by Michael and obeys the commands of Elohim to go down and organize the earth now at the very least even if we want to put aside other planets and other universes or how else you want to put it Jehovah says is there a god besides me well in your temple ceremony Elohim told him to go organize the earth right how can Java then say there yeah there is no God I know not any how can he say that and then later on in the exact same chapter verse 24 verse of check of Isaiah 44 thus saith Yahweh Jehovah thy Redeemer and he that formed thee from the womb I am Jehovah that maketh all things that stretches forth the heavens alone that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself what happened to Michael and Elohim mm-hmm you've got a choice to make the the inspired scriptures and this this book of Isaiah if you want to try to say it's been changed or something like that well that's sort of tough to do in light of the Isaiah scroll the Dead Sea scrolls and Jesus's quotation of Isaiah and all the rest this type of stuff the idea of an apostasy later on they couldn't have changed this stuff because we already know what it was like even before the days of Jesus here you have plain teaching that is directly against what you have in the endowment ceremonies themselves yeah you've got to make a choice the two cannot be put together that's right okay here we go you know when I'm talking about God and creating His image we call it's like our divine nature right God is divine and since he's our Father we have this divine nature in us and I love in Peter it says whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises that ye may be partakers of divining okay now very very important the Mormon here's this and thinks this is true of all human beings you read what Peter says and he's writing to Christians yeah only to Christians that these words would not be true of unbelievers that's right so whenever you have stuff about adoption of the family of God being conformed as image this is specifically and only about believers in Jesus Christ it is not about those who remain in rebellion against God that's right and so to take those and generalize them to all of humanity as if this has something to do with the fact that by partaking the divine nature we that actually means we are literal offspring of one God and his I know some they got to the heavenly mother thing they're talking about one they didn't talk about all eyes all his pure wives because he's got a ton of them yes because if he's got billions and billions and billions of offspring that wasn't one poor lady popping out these babies I tell you something yeah that was a bunch of them popping out those babies so that this whole technical term popping out baby okay I think they'd appreciate that yes science yes but but this is so far removed from the context in the New Testament yes that Peter is giving here when he's talking about are being made partakers the divine of the divine image and the divine being he's talking about the Holy Spirit dwelling within us and conforming us to the image of Christ so at the life that he has even as Jesus of promise in John chapter 14 how does he make his his abode with us the father and the son abide was to the presence of the Holy Spirit yea we are united with Christ we we are in union with the very son of God but it's not everybody who is in union with the Son of God right and so to generalize in this way is to grossly misrepresent the New Testament and I doubt very much and I'm gonna be respectful and again I don't know your hearts and I could be wrong about this but the majority of the time when these are passed along to Christians and defense of Joseph Smith's revelation and Brigham Young's revelation I find I have found over many many years of ministry that when you ask them what's the context of that chapter you're talking about what's what's what's the general don't give me specifics just give me a general idea what's the passage about like you not a climatic well in my part and part of that just has to do with how they're raised and how they are taught Mormon doctrine when I went to that Mormon school that every single one of my friends and classmates they would come back from their cent there's a seminary across the street and it was almost like every single period it was like they're always walking back and forth every single period and they would have what are called scripture mastery cards and so they're not taught for example to look at eases yeah they're not taught for example to read James the whole book of James in context understand it's a book like I said just like in Peter it's a book written to Christians about practical sanctification is not talking about you know how to become Christians you know if you come up with what faith of that works is dead they're given a scripture mastery card of James 1:5 and they're also given one of faith and that works is dead they're given another one of first Corinthians what talks about being baptized for the dead so forth and so on let's be honest we do the same thing with quit as Christians exactly cringes yeah yeah yeah oh I can't tell you how many times I heard that passed around in the hospital I was at as a chaplain and I wanted every time I heard okay here we go so Heavenly Father wants us to be like him I think growing up for me one thing that really just like clicked when I was learning this idea was our earthly fathers right we all have fathers my father wants me to be like him he taught me to work hard in school and to like love my family and he wants me to go on and to take my education and to create my own family right he wants me to progress but uh I will never be my father right he'll always be my father I'll always look up to him and I'll always learn from him and admire him one thing that they didn't seem to give consideration to here is the reality that if this is true of them that it's also true of God who likewise went through the same process which means there is someone he's always looking up just working and he's worshiping and that he will never actually be like that so I mean that's consistent with Joseph Smith's idea of eternal progression but as as you know you look into the General Authorities of church primarily in the 19th century it's sort of been settled since then though it's still a contradiction and there is this difference between has elohim reached full exaltation or is there is is is exaltation a process with an end or is it just simply a never-ending process because when you think about it like a train if any part of the train stops everything behind its gonna stop - and so I think at least toward the end Joseph Smith had much more of the the train keeps on going idea but today most people default to the idea that Elohim has actually received the highest exaltation he can which doesn't make any sense if his offspring are becoming more exalted wouldn't that exalt him even farther down down the way I mean there's just so many problems with this idea of an infinite regress and all the rest that stuff in in in Mormon theology that that they're starting to try to struggle with and what's interesting is the answers of coming up with can never be historically consistent with Joseph Smith and so I just wonder how long it is and we've already seen Brigham Young thrown under the bus just over the past couple of years right on his race issues on his statements about the blacks yeah and that the church is already and this stuns me the church has has just thrown him out on that subject it's like wait a minute the vast majority of your alleged priesthood Authority that you claim amongst your general authorities today is traced back through that man you just threw under the bus right clearly the the genealogical idea of a priesthood authority concept is weakening itself yeah and I just don't know how much redefinition overtime Mormonism can handle well I think that's one of the main reasons that we see this kind of Mormonism right now in terms of the responses and just sort of this toned-down response to Christian theology I think it has a lot to do with the difficulties they're having now and how do you now propagate Mormonism which is it's changing so much do you propagate something is ultimately not biblical and false in this new generation for example with with the free access to information now everyone has Google and you can search oh yeah easily get access to everything that we had to go purchase and dig up and we have only travel do not come yeah it's trapped you're more on the back of your back I mean like way down right exactly I mean we used to tell people about the seer stone though ah no no no no last year they published a picture of it it was sitting the church historical department the whole time yeah yeah it's at the point is is that this there's free access to information now and with these bring questions and challenges legitimate obviously biblical challenges but there's other challenges as well in terms in terms of historical inaccuracies hagiography there's all kinds of really bad things you have to really work through and so how does it propagate itself and I think it has to come this way though the kind of way that they're doing I I see a lot of this outside of the temple when we do our evangelism these answers this kind of Defense of Mormonism so yeah and I think that's just something to bring up in regards to Mormonism changing and and our and what from our position of God who is eternal and doesn't change in fact a verse that comes to mind is Hebrews chapter 13 verse 8 where it says Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and forever and I think it's really interesting that the very next verse says do not be carried away by varied and strange teachings and it goes on and on and dr. white I remember one of the videos where you were out with Jeff at the temple you had talked about and you'll I'm gonna set you up because I think you'll remember it about the how is it that a Mormon can how can you trust a God who is always progressing and always changing versus a God who is eternal is the same yesterday too in forever how can you trust a God who was isn't necessarily gonna be consistent with who he is or what his promises are I remember that I never that really kind of hit home for me in regards to like what I believe in talking to people out there the temple for ya the context of that was the very first encounter I had with LDS missionaries in 1982 elders Reed and Reese we met on a Monday and a Thursday and at the end of that Thursday meeting I knew I still had a lot to learn at that point in time about Mormonism that's what started it but what I said to them was gentlemen someday you're going to need to know a God who does not change your God has changed what you had to do to become a God has changed you know polygamy was once required now it's not he himself has changed he has evolved someday you're gonna need to you know this life is such that you're gonna need to know a God who does not change my prayer is that when that time comes that you will not only remember our conversation but that the Lord will place one of my fellow believers in your life to be able to continue to testify of that one true God because your God simply does not exist and at that time I did not know about Jeremiah chapter 10 but let me just just mention these two verses because I think it's so important but Jehovah is the true God he is the Living God and an everlasting king it his wrath the earth shall tremble the nation shall not be able to abide his indignation thus shall ye say unto them the gods that have not made the heavens in the earth even they shall perish from the earth and from under these heavens now what's fascinating and a lot of people don't know this is that in the original language which in Jeremiah is primarily Hebrew verse 11 when it says thus shall ye say unto them is in Hebrew and then it switches to Aramaic and so God provides to his people in the language with which they would be speaking to the Babylonians who are inviting them to worship these gods that are not the creators of all things he gives them the very apologetic words to speak in the language of the people he's witnessing to the gods that have not made the heavens and the earth even they shall perish from the earth and from under these heavens the Mormon God created nothing he only organizes and that's not what creation means jehovah creates all things and so here jehovah gives the very words to his people this is this is the issue everything else comes after this but the the reason for the confusion the reason for the need to have it action airy to be able to understand the differences in language and stuff like that is because right here definition of who God is and Mormonism's understanding of God is utterly contradictory to that which has been taught by all the prophets by the Lord Jesus Christ by his apostles and by the Christian Church all the way up till April 6 1830 and in fact after that because Joseph Smith didn't believe this stuff on April 6 1830 and by the way for the three Mormons he didn't claim to hold the priesthood in April 6 1830 which is a real problem the idea of a restoration without the priesthood Authority yeah that's a development over time as well that's right that same as our Heavenly Father he wants so much for us and he wants us to progress but it's not that we're progressing to him he's always our father and we're just moving with him as well as yeah yeah I think it's important to understand that parents don't want their children to always stay as children their credibility per se or their happiness or their glory is extended because they have created offspring that is successful yes God he he doesn't gain anything by having eternal worshipers right if we're just gonna worship God this part yeah than me well you know look my little Christian heart was yeah yeah well you but you've got to understand not only have I heard this for so many years and it's so many missionary there what do you go do is sit around plucking a harp all day floating on a cloud type thing look if you had a God who's just an exalted version of you how could you look forward to being absorbed in his worship and praise right yeah yeah that's right I mean there I say this with all respect but Mormons just don't understand what it is to have a god and so it's fully understandable given they completely redefined who God is it's perfectly understandable for them to say this type of stuff but but people need no stamp this is a common attitude that is expressed by by Mormons and has been for a long time this is one place there hasn't been much of a change well essentially like more if Mormons had in their worldview if they had to worship God for all eternity it would be hell for them just because there they would be sort of forced subjugated to worship someone who they're trying to be so they'd be kind of stuck in a cycle of just jealousy so interesting my thoughts and yeah for the rest of our life why is the purpose of this life to learn how to worship yes but also to learn how to be like Heavenly Father in Romans 8 Paul is talking about how we can become heirs of the kingdom of God and he specifically says and if children you know the Spirit tells you that we are children of God the Spirit will tell you that and if children then heirs and heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ and if so be that we suffer with him that we may be also glorified together so there you go that's verse 7 verse 17 and again this is specifically about the elect of God it's about those who are in Christ Jesus it is not those who are according the flesh to hold the whole point at the beginning of the chapter is to contrast those who are in the flesh against those who are in the spirit so on and so forth yes and and why does there need to be adoption in the first place I mean adoption is a beautiful term that's described if we're naturally the children of God why use this term adoption yeah well because we're not naturally the children of God we are the creations of God and in the Old Testament almost every time the term father is used of God it is in a creative context and in that sense he created all human beings but as far as relationship is concerned we have to be adopted we have to be brought into a situation that is not ours naturally by nature we are the enemies children of Wrath children of Wrath and the obvious that means children can't be taken in a literal sense of offspring right because I don't know who mrs. Raths is do I have a rat mommy and yeah I mean yeah I mean it doesn't make any sense well even even the prologue prologue in John 1 it says that he came to his own his own did not receive him but as many did receive him he then gave them the right to become children of God so you see there's a differentiation the same goes with Ephesians 2 your children of Wrath and then you become children of God I mean it's I would like to see these more these the if they were listen this videos really try and give an answer how do you in your world view what what is a child of wrath according to Ephesians 2 I don't think they have an answer that let's let's recognize that the Mormon Church has never developed a consistent anthropology because it doesn't have a theology upon which to define an anthropology and then it when it comes to ha marty ology dr no sin wow what a mess yeah what an inconsistent mass yeah hmm George you have some no no just that we're going to you know be exactly who the Savior was but it's saying here that we're going to be a joint heir in the kingdom of God that would be like him one day and this is so beautiful to me and it also instills lots of purpose within me worried about is we're not worried about what we worship is the fact that God gave us life god yes earth God gave us a savior by which video did he say we don't worry about what we worship I wasn't sure what that was saying but it flows from because I think this what this episode's gonna end with something along the lines of you know it's it's God's glory to bring about the exaltation man and again the definition of God's purpose on the basis of mankind rather than definition of mankind on the basis of God which just sounds like something mankind would come up with [Laughter] right on redeemed that's why we worship God yes he is our Creator he is who we look to or her guidance he gives us blessings he's provided the Word made flesh Jesus Christ on earth to teach us we worship God because he is there's no words there's not enough words we are nothing I wouldn't I'd like to give my personal opinion does it follow that God was nothing without his gun it would have to right I said if we are nothing without God then it follows that God was nothing without his God and his guy was out to God before him that's never embraced and maybe though I'm real glad that you brought that up because it may be the first time someone that's latter-day Saint who has believed these things and been attached to them has thought about that they're really really considered that and how far back does this go and is my god really where they have the worship that I'm given to him if he's with his sole purpose is just to exalt the next god that's under him and the next guy that's under him like how powerful is he well not only that but if if you follow this to again if I become a God then my purpose becomes exaltation of my offspring mm-hmm so right now I'm wrapped up in whether they become gods on whatever planet I organize and and how I set things up there and things like that it is that it's it's cliche but there is no more man centered religion ever divine designed by man than Mormonism yeah because you don't have a God it has to be medicine yeah I can't remember the exact passage reference by notes in Isaiah where God says bring my sons and daughters from afar whom I've created for my glory whom I've created whom I have made it's that's the exact opposite God has created us in order for his glory for his way around and and there's a differentiation between the as Christians is that we understand that we are the creation and he is the one who's the creators that are just there's a level of just of difference between that and I think they're just they anyone who does not embrace that has a real real struggle of trying to make that differentiation between the Creator and us being creation and just understand the difference between that I mean that's a basic concept for us as Christians but you can just see just in hearing those videos you see where they fall short of that it's it's ironic because I immediately thought of Isaiah 29 16 surely you're turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay for shall the work say of him that made it he made me not or shall the thing frame say of him the framed he had no understanding it is this upside down so what's interesting is that's 29:16 yeah what's the phraseology in 29 14 therefore behold I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people even a marvelous work and a wonder ah one of one of Mormons favorite phrases that yeah being the title of Legrand Richards yes it's you know I don't know if they really read that one as much as they did before I still got a copy falling apart it was it was that one of the first books that a the Mormon family that connected with me early on gave to me they gave me that but you know why because there was a set of books you could buy in the LDS bookstore to give two missionaries before they got on their mission and marvelous work in the Wonder marvels are gonna wonder Legrand Richards setup to where I recall correctly it had to be printed like for free it had to be made available to anybody wanted something like that and so Marvel's are gonna wonder was one of the books long with articles of faith that were given to all the missionaries having talked a lot of those missionaries even back then I'm not sure they all did the reading they were supposed to do before Christ rue that's true and on certain verses that talk about there not being any guys before God or after life don't dream yes because you know there was a big issue in the ancient times honestly a big issue today of people worshipping rods and and you know worshipping God doesn't always be like you're praying to a statue sometimes we worship these kind of gods you know what I mean like we're worshipping things and and we know we may not say we're worshipping but we're giving enough attention and then having so much faith in and looking towards man-made objects it becomes this bizarre form of modern idolatry right but well we can actually we can we can actually actually agree he knows what modern idolatry looks like doesn't seem to recognize that the worship of an exalted may have another planet is also I don't look right right I believe that the verses that speak about that or pertaining to let's say it just got really quiet in here oh I feel like a long time has it okay man just my voice so loud and echoes the verses that speak about there not being any gods before or after our true because the scriptures pertain to our world and and you know the first dispensation to the last okay immediately I have to go and exactly where do you get that all right we got it from latter-day revelation because we're told to believe this because it's the only way we can make this fit with the Bible because the Bible says these things and we believe something different so we try to limit this way but the problem is how does that work so so in Isaiah 44 when God says is there a God besides me I know not any on the one hand you're gonna say you're always going to be worshiping your heavenly Father but now you've got a heavenly father who isn't any longer worshiping his Heavenly Father when did that stop how does how is that different do you mean he doesn't know about this other God in another universe or somewhere else galaxy doesn't even know how do you how do you make this work and God says I say forth him before me there was no God for him there should be none after are you saying there was no God formed in this universe because remember according the Book of Abraham god lives on a planet the circles of star named Kolob but he only organized this there was there had to be something before that for him to be able to organize it so where did that come from I mean there just so many problems with this idea that we're gonna limit scripture so that it's denial of polytheism a plurality of gods is only relevant to quote-unquote this planet as in that would be a category I mean Jeremiah 2000 my chapter 10 the category was this world and the heavens and everything in it yeah so now there are Mormons actually buying into multiverse theory sure so that you can have multiple universes and have different gods out there I've got one over this uniform eh or maybe like Elohim is dad had one of those pens like a men in black so he didn't remember yeah I haven't heard that one you know dude Deuteronomy 4 35 39 God says he is God alone in the heavens above and on the earth below there is no other so in Mormon say well that's of this earth what's interesting about that is that they don't really believe that either that easy look out of this earth because I believe there's three gods right of this earth three separate and distinct persons and beings three separate gods of this earth alone and then in a limitless number before and then I'm coming afterwards and so it just doesn't work and I want to just say this very respectfully to you when you often see Mormons try to approach say a text like dr. white brought up isaiah 43:10 before me there was no god formed neither shall there be after me they'll say things like well that's speaking of idols false gods I actually have a video we just posted if somebody trying to use that as an answer what I usually say is just try to let's say okay let's do this that's not what God is actually saying there and you can't fit that in the context of what's going on there but let's take what your interpretation is right now your attempt to answer let's place it into the text for a moment let's see if it works so if God is saying there he's referring to idols false gods idols let's put in the text before me there was no Idol formed and neither shall there be any Idol formed after me asked the latter-day Saint have there been e been any idols created since the time of God speaking then on isaiah 43:10 so that interpretation doesn't work a lot of times you have to just feed their interpretation into the text and ask them does that make any sense to you with the text or does that sound like a need to protect this modern day revelation of Joseph Smith does it fit with the text itself just just humbly and patiently ask them place that into the text and ask yourself does that actually answer the question and it really doesn't so a lot of these are just just know these are practiced responses Jerry mentions if you are in Arizona right now and you go to a high school out here you'll have seminary off the off the side of the high school yo yeah they'll go back and forth and they're learning these things are learning responses and so a lot of times it just takes time to just work with them patiently and and with grace and love and compassion work through these things with them and I want to just stress that kindness and graciousness and compassion I have to say this just I want to say this briefly yesterday I don't usually read comments on our things but I happen to look at the video and I was erasing a number of comments from professing Christians who were just absolutely abusive and foul with some of these latter-day saints on on the channel and so I want to just distress that gentleness graciousness and love and I think even that has a lot to do with your theology as a Christian what you believe about how a person comes to know the Lord whether it's up to you yeah and one of the things that you can do I would encourage anyone who watch this if you're talking with someone who's a cultist whether they're whether they're Mormons Jehovah's Witness or in fact I did this recently I was in dialogue with someone in Sapa Stahl --ax and I actually had them read a passage they their diversity I knew that they're taking out of context I asked him if he could turn to this Pat does one passage to give the entire context then I just asked him to read it that's actually something that Walt's and Martin would do a lot is a he would actually have the cultists read read it for themselves in front of them like in context and then go from there and it just and also it's just a matter to of you know it's interesting to just being in the reformed community and being Calvinist where you believe that people are spiritually dead and sinned and they're just this way unless God intervenes and yet you not sometimes the people people who believe that will then go back and mock those very people who are doing what they don't really know what else to do because they're spiritually dead instead of actually just being gracious and doing what it talks about in you know giving an answer for the hope that you have with grace graciousness and meekness and kindness yeah how much time we have left do you think you know it's up to you I'm saying I know you have you have a show you have a dividing line to run actually we moved the dividing line just for you oh I thought you praise the Lord but I do have an appointment okay okay how much more time you do want to how much time do we have left um in this particular video we want to switch over to the Heavenly Mother one for a moment or stay here I I think we're probably getting toward the end of where people would want to listen to an hour and a half long or yeah video basically yeah well let me let me ask you just a couple more questions that might be helpful okay so your so first thing is is the Mormon my brother excellent resource for those of you who are believers and you're wanting to love and reach latter-day saints is the Mormon my brother also if you are letter to st. you want to listen to the other side in terms of really engaging this and we invite you when we have resources I know dr. white does this we invite you to check the resources go dig into what's being said well and especially this one letter stream Mormon elder is is my first book and that's written in the form of letters to to a more a missionary and so it deals with you know all the stuff you know Book of Mormon Book of Abraham false prophecies temple ceremonies all the rest system this is much more focused and I did in this was to really focus on the doctrine of and I broke down the LDS statements into differing levels of authority and so I was exceptionally careful in trying to accurately represent what historic and it's really hard to use the term historic for a movement that only started in the 1830s but since the 1830s what historic Mormonism has has taught and it focuses specifically on the doctrine of God and there is an entire chapter on that idea that Elohim is the physical parent of of Jesus and hence the impact that has upon the concept the virgin birth and things like that but for a Mormon who specifically sorry yeah that's how you segue into the end is you start the nice cool chill-out music yes right for that for the Mormon who may just want to go hey I want to find out if these these guys really do do their homework I really highly recommend you take a look at it yes so if you are listening to this right now and you're just really beginning to engage this maybe you're angry with us for engaging with Mormonism and you think certain things about us because maybe you've been told things about anti Mormons and people that do this sort of a thing want to really encourage you to to spend some time working through some of the resources either that we have an apologia studios on art this channel that you're watching right now we have tons of conversations and lectures and messages and other dr. white has over thirty years of ministry to latter-day saints and tons of resources under verse memory system that's right that's what I wanted to point you to yes so the hundred verse memorization system for believers who want to engage the subject with latter-day saints that's almost a book into it it is yeah I was going to talk to you about that actually that I really think there's gonna be some way to take that and make it a good resource for people on a book form or something I think it would be so helpful um but for latter-day saints who are watching this and you want to say well you know what are the big issues and I'm ready to dig in and I'm really I'm ready to combat you and argue why don't you do that go to the hunter verse memorization system just the debates or the debates yeah we've numbered debates up in up in Utah that are available online yeah and dig in 100 verse memorization system just google that alpha mega ministries and you can just work through because dr. white contrasts mormon revelation belief and doctrine with the scriptures and you are invited to go and check out the resource the quotation from a mormon authority and then compare that to what the Bible says and read that in context and so oftentimes I'll leave with this I saw one portion of this today where the young man suggested that when he was a Protestant he says he was a Protestant before he converted to Mormonism he says that they were never told to examine these things and to test them to really examine them and he said when Mormonism you know we're told to you know read this and test it and you know examine it receive the truth no matter who presents it to take up the Bible and compare their religion out of the Saints yeah that's right so I want to suggest you that doesn't sound like any Christianity that I'm familiar with in terms of how the faith was passed to me or how I communicate the truth in the faith to other people at the the biblical faith is a faith that is rooted in truth objectivity I mean that the the claims of Scripture are to test all things and to reject prophets false prophets that don't actually hold to consistency with previous revelation scripture is filled and lined with texts and commands to to actually test things things to actually engage and to use your mind and of course to be prayerful but not prayerful at the expense of truth one thing she said I know I'm talking a lot here but I just want to say this one thing that the girl said today just struck me she said the other girl yes the this girl no no no the asian girl on me on the three mormons she actually said this and it was on he's texting with summer yeah probably she actually get this and this would be good to kind of end on she said you know we don't want to just trust our feelings we want to trust the holy spirit but they said well there's a way that can go wrong she said well here's the thing something to the effect of if if it feels good then we know that it's from the Spirit of God and I thought to myself tell that to the modern millennium if it feels good it's from God they're going that's how I'm living baby it feels good so I believe God's with it like gods behind this I mean that is just among the most amazing statements if it feels good it must be from God well they if you've been using Moroni 10 4 & 5 for all these years and doing the testimony type thing there's a there's an element of subjectivism that is in the very bloodstream of Mormonism that is killing it yes it is it is absolutely now that the society has changed into its subjective form that is a poison in the bloodstream of Mormonism that will fundamentally change the very character of Mormonism eventually and I think it'll result in a major split eventually that's right lots of things that might feel good to you they are not wholly good righteous in God's eyes and I want to encourage anybody listening to this again who is latter-day saint to know that we have genuine love and concern for you we do not want to see you hurt and destroyed want to see you know the true and living God we don't want you to lose faith we want you to come to faith in the true and living Jesus the real Christ and experience peace and forgiveness and salvation and him that is our ultimate goal here in terms of pointing you to these things so encourage you to do that encourage you to look through the history dr. White's ministry apology estudios there's tons to work with contact us if you have questions and again to three Mormons I that's you don't always hear that from dr. white that he's gonna send you books and we've done that I know but you don't always say he's he's he's in bit he's busy in ministry a lot a lot of people are tweeting him and making comments and they're online and may in doing so yes so but but to have him offer you these I think is a huge blessing and I would encourage you to check it out test it to examine the things that we've said today and I invite you to come on our show and discuss these things we would definitely invite you we'd love to be on your show and have this discussion with you so that's it yeah go if their show is a little bit shorter than yours yes much tighter space we have lots of room here samurai sword yeah it's um decorating to do too as well right all right enjoy the girl see you guys thank you all for watching go to apology of studios.com to get more content sign up for all access thank you to our all-access partners for making this possible you get alright TV shows radio shows after shows an apology Academy all-access apologia studios.com go check it out Nostradamus Jeremiah Roberts do you want to okay real quick yes no you say no I mean they know we're live but I want to say no yes we'll hold it hold it until next time what sorry guys we said I dr. James right thank you sir for joining us today been great to be with you god bless you brother all right check out the dividing line maybe later today maybe talk a little bit tomorrow okay so are you gonna touch these do you think some of these we'll see okay all right so alpha - Megan ministries ayo mindo RG or alpha omega ministries on youtube guys thank you guys catch you next time [Music] you

Channel: Apologia Studios

Views: 64,854

Rating: 4.7495031 out of 5

Keywords: jeff durbin, apologia church, apologia studios, 3 mormons, mormonism, i am a mormon, mormon tabernacle choir, joseph smith false prophet, mormon documentary, secret footage mormon temple, mormonism exposed, james white mormon, james white debate, jeff durbin mormon, 3 mormons channel, 3 mormons gods, can men become gods, mormon debate, joseph smith southpark, james white

Id: JRoQ9fVGLho

Length: 84min 6sec (5046 seconds)

Published: Thu Aug 09 2018

Reddit Comments

[u/[deleted]]

So I have to give Apologia major props for their work with Mormons.

Back when I was still Mormon there was a huge problem with Christians trying to "reach" Mormons in ways that were deeply unhelpful. The biggest issue is that many of the Christians trying to witness to people like me had no idea what Mormons actually believed and couldn't really tell you what put Mormonism outside of Christian orthodoxy. There are also some big cultural barriers that you wouldn't know about unless you lived around Mormons.

Not only that, a lot of the street preachers I encountered when I was LDS don't really want to talk to you, they just wanted to hold signs outside the temple and yell at you from afar, but when you tried to speak with them they would just get flustered and stop responding or even get hostile. That makes it impossible for LDS folks to take them seriously at all, and very easy for Mormons to say "see? We are NICE and they aren't so we are the REAL Christians." I'm not saying you should have a PhD in the book of Mormon, but you need to know SOMETHING. It's hard to debate in good faith if you are unwilling or unable to accurately represent the position of your "opponent".

For instance: I once had a guy try to tell me that we performed sex rituals in the temple, and I was like "that's news to me, since I was just in there and everything." He honestly thought I was covering up some giant Mormorgy in the temples or whatever.

But guys like James, Jeff Durbin etc actually do know LDS theology pretty well, and aren't afraid of having an actual discussion with people. Some of their printed resources that they hand out are really good too.

[u/feefuh]

What's the one book I should read if I really want to wrap my head around the history of Mormon theology?

[u/Flyfoxpro]

This book is supposed to be good. Jeff Durbin has talked about it: One Nation Under Gods: A History of the Mormon Church https://www.amazon.com/dp/1568582838/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_qVVBBb0ZWCH3G

[u/Flyfoxpro]

Thanks for sharing this.