Leaving Mormonism: INCREDIBLE Conversation

I guess my question to you is I agree with your tract and I don't know what to do from this point okay why don't you uh give me a call we'll meet up hang out talk some more all right yeah you too man comes great talking you so uh yeah man I'm just grateful and like I said humbled just to be able to be a part of you asking these questions and just where you're at your whole story right now honestly it's it's it's just incredible I let's start with just introductions sure so who are you and and I guess maybe tell everybody how we got connected sure so I would say I think the biggest thing that drew that drew me to start searching and what started questioning my faith in the Mormon Church is that the church has started becoming transparent and I remember you addressing this in some of your videos where you said you believe a lot of your back problems came from the books that you'd have to carry yes and so there's a lot of information that's available not only in YouTube but there's a lot of valid points that the Mormon Church is now conceding yeah and there's a couple of points that I we will go over that really shortly but those questions drove me to start doubting my faith and from that point I started questioning is there really God is there not I started looking at a lot of YouTube videos the first one I came across was the God debate that you and side did yeah a while back and that's what introduced me to your videos and then I started looking for the times that you've witnessed two Mormon missionaries okay because I was a Mormon missionary I was out in Florida in the Bible Belt and so what was that like man it was a Mormon missionary in about I mean the only thing I can say is these are my these are my scriptures that I had on my mission and you can tell just by the gold leafing which one was had to get used more it was really just if you didn't it was no your Bible or get out essentially and so I mean that's honestly the biggest thing that I want to address that even some of my Christian friends have talked about is they feel that there so I don't want to say scared but they're so timid sometimes to talk to Mormons because Mormons they have the same terminology but it doesn't mean the same thing and so it's very easy for a Mormon it was very easy for me to misunderstand scriptures and to believe it so much that you're willing to go preach about it and so that is the biggest thing I think I want or at least that we're going to be talking about at least is that those misconceptions that are easily taken wrongly by the Mormon Church and the fun thing I'm going to be able to do is some of the tracks that I would do to reach Christians I want to throw those at you so that you can come back at them and say this is where this is wrong because ultimately what I want to give you the opportunity to do is there's a lot of times you'll talk to Mormons on the street and they'll either get embarrassed it'll get frustrated they'll shut the door you'll say something that turns them off for whatever reason and then you can't you can't get the further understanding in and so I know the culture I've been in the church raised in the church 28 years I know what these Mormons are asking I know what scriptures and the in the Bible they rely on and so I want to give you just ample opportunity to just lay it out so that it can be out in the open these are the scriptures of why they believe what they believe why they say they believe in the Bible and why they're wrong so born and raised in the LDS Church went on your mission and now you've come to a point of well we're at a point of a crisis of faith and you mentioned that you started even questioning whether God exists you start coming to more fundamental questions because and this is this is the the difficult thing for me in terms of the heartbreaking aspect of it is where you see somebody that's latter-day saint that starts to go online and starts to see a lot of the stuff about Joseph Smith false prophecies historic stuff stuff that the Mormon Church is conceding today and it brings them to a place where they turn atheistic or agnostic they just give up because they figure well maybe truth isn't possible to be known maybe if Joseph's a false prophet how do I know that Jesus wasn't also a false prophet yeah and so that's always a sad thing to see many many modern Mormons that leave the Mormon Church giving up altogether that's heartbreaking for me to see that because I think yeah I mean well it's good to the fundamental aspect of the difficulty in terminology I think this is due that you mentioned before we started rolling that the the thing that's been causing you to want to throw your head into a wall as the definitions right because we speak the same language yep but you have a particular view of a certain word or a phrase that now you have to sort of undo your on you have the challenge stuff its core like Jesus got the Father Holy Spirit Bible faith baptism all all of these things that meant something to you before your whole life it's it's redefining all of them right I had a friend of mine many years ago that he came to Christ devout Mormon family and he was only 16 years old and when he turned to Christ his family kicked him out of the house Wow at 16 years old and it was interesting because it was a year after he had come to faith I remember we were sitting in having dinner and he just confessed to me that night because he was looking so strong like he was doing so well he confessed me that's that that night over dinner that he was really struggling on a daily basis trying to figure out if what he was thinking was true because he had all of these different beliefs and all this baggage from Mormonism even a year into his walk with Christ he was still going is that true like is is that biblical and he was always running to the Bible to try to figure out oh my goodness I could be really wrong on this because I thought one way and now it's a different way so just talk about that I think the problem of definition yeah it is huge like one of the biggest issues that we're going to be going over is grace for example and the a lot of my questions are going to be based around you know we initially when we were at the temple and we were initially talking we talked about how James - in Ephesians - don't wash each other out and how they don't redic that is a big issue and also one of the scriptures that I even checked on today on lds.org just to make sure that my understanding of it when I spoke to you coincides with the LDS Church is when I brought up I still always get a mixed up it's either Matthew 19:17 or Matthew 1719 when he's speaking speaking to the young rich ruler and context is so important the Mormon Church they have discussion after talk after General Conference and that parable is used a lot if you searched out and aleeah's to org and they they say you know yes you know this is you know the commandments and all that kind of stuff and they and they harbor that and what they don't realize is they don't take what was eye-opening to me is you've got to take it word-for-word verse by Bert by verse and so when Christ for example says I believe he calls him you may have to refresh my memory he calls him good master a good rabbi what shall I do to gain eternal life yes and Christ essentially says why are you calling me good because there's only one that's good right and that is the biggest Mormons of using text Mormonism is that with me to say Jesus isn't God God right yeah well that's awful yeah yeah but where is it Matthew 19:16 is where it starts yeah in anyways I'll go over this really quickly says NB Holden one came unto him saying good master what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life so the context of this also is that this guy is self righteous he's not he's not actually trying to figure out what to do from what I understand and so he says under the why call is to me thou good there's none good but one that is God if that will enter into life keep the commandments and so the things Mormons have to ask is is God saying is Jesus Christ saying that he's not good right if you're willing to advocate that Jesus Christ is not good then I don't even think you have good standing in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints right and so you have to take the context that he's answering the fool according to his folly is that he's playing the game you know sure you believe you're gonna follow the commandments let's actually see how far you're willing to go and so context of that is is so important I can't tell you how long after you and I talked we didn't have a chance to go over that scriptures there's so many things I threw at you one time but there was a time that I am messaged your facebook over social media again I was like hey you please help explain this because this is killing me I don't understand grace when Christ is saying this yeah that you have to follow the commandments and he pointed it out you have to understand the context God is good you have to understand that everybody was trying to find ways to twist his word so that they could kill him and so well harmful just at that point I think that's interesting is is that point of context a I know that in missionary I have the missionary training manuals and missionary training stuff there was a Mormon missionary at the temple that came to Christ once after weeks of talking and secret with us yeah and when he left he came to Christ he left he gave us all the missionary training manuals it was interesting when I looked through a lot of those in saw a lot of the training I saw this this real forceful this this emphasis upon proof texting right if somebody says this and this is what you throw back at them if they say you're saved by grace through faith then you give them James chapter 2 faith works isn't it yeah without any any any approach to the text of what actually is James saying right so often times when I've had more missionaries say to me faith without works is dead but I often say is and what's the context of James what's he saying there in that passage and there I don't know does it matter that minute matters a great deal because there's this emphasis upon proof texting in for example just another one just to toss out when you say there's only one God and more missionaries are trained to say there be God's many and Lords many but that's in the Bible first Corinthians chapter eight there be God's many Lords many see the Bible says there's many gods it's like what's the context of what's the context of first Corinthians chapter eight it's Paul saying there's only one God and there a lot of other so-called gods but there's no there's only one actual God one real God yeah and and so so yeah that that becomes I think one of the most important things is definitions what does the Bible say about God was to say about Jesus when you go to particular passages what is the context of that passage yeah who's talking what's the context like for example in this rich young ruler passage here's Jesus talking to a man who actually thinks that he's obeyed the commandments of God in a way that would inherit eternal life and Jesus knows his heart has his compassion whom the guy and he tells him what he's missing and what he's missing is what the man will not give up is his stuff but the man has violated with his stuff being a rich young ruler is the law of God in terms of how to care for the poor yep Jesus knows his heart Jesus knows how he has not kept the law of God in terms of how he actually cares for the the poor and so Jesus tells him sell everything you have don't give it to me give it to the poor which I love that by the way about Jesus every religious charlatan in the world would most certainly say to a rich person okay here's what you're missing sell everything that you've got and give it to the ministry yeah Jesus to sell everything you've got and give it to the poor so you come to me naked you come to me with nothing he says and follow me so what are you missing follow me that's that's what you're missing so the point of the question of eternal life is that you need Christ you must come to Christ and this man's not willing to give up what he loves more than God and that's his stuff and what he hasn't done is actually obeyed God's law in terms of how he actually is supposed to care for the poor and so he walks away sorrowful because he has many great possessions and and that's where Jesus gives this amazing promise after he talks about rich people entering the kingdom of heaven he says easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God and the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished saying who then can be saved but Jesus looked at them and said with man this is impossible but with God all things are possible by the way killer passage there on the power of God in Salvation what does Jesus emphasize there as he does Oh over and over and over in the Bible is a salvation isn't of man it's not through your effort it's not through what you do it's impossible for people who are a particular way with their stuff rich people to get into the kingdom of God to come into the rule of Christ and so there's a well who can do it well with man it's impossible you can't do it with man with man's abilities but with God as the source God is the sovereign God as the foundation all things are possible and then he goes into the beautiful truth about that I think every Mormon who's watching this needs to hear and it goes back to a story you've probably heard me tell both before about how I started even caring about reaching my Mormon friends is that I had a Mormon friend in high school who approached me when I first heard the gospel and I'm reading the Bible and a theater arts class after school and sits down next to me what he read number in the Bible and he's like oh I'm a Christian you're a Christian too oh yeah we're Christians great and so he asked me says which level of heaven are you going to I had never heard of that it sounded strange to me and I was like well the highest when I hope I guess so that's where I started studying Mormonism and and so long story basically I started investing myself and getting to know Mormonism reading The Book of Mormon Perla great price getting to know what the Mormon prophets and apostles actually taught so I spent six months at least ministering to this friend and we're in my room one day after like six months I had like sat down with countless Mormon missionaries by this point they were just sending them to me now and I was having dinner with his family I was going with his family to the temple to go look at the lights and this is in Washington DC and I had just spent so much time in this Mormon community and they loved me and I love them back it's one of the reasons I fell in love with the Mormon community is because I love the Mormon people so much but we sat on my bed and I'm sharing with them more scriptures and he just breaks down and he said I know everything that you're saying is true he says but I can't leave the church and I said why if you know it's the truth why and he said because my whole life is the church if I if I leave I lose everything I lose my family I lose everything that I love I lose everything and so of course I've said many times before that what I said to him had just welled up within me and I was a Christian for such a short period of time I don't really know how it did but I said what shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world loses his soul so what if you have your family and all your stuff and this community that you love and you're raised with you thought was so true if you lose your soul what do you gain and this is one of those moments too that connects that where Jesus says everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or four or children or lands for my name's sake or receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life so that's right never rich young ruler passage where Jesus is telling people yeah you might lose your stuff when you follow me but you gain life and you gain a hundredfold and so that to me is just a great encouragement to in terms of all of us not just Mormons but all of us who have to abandon the community that we're in and the lifestyle maybe we've chose and the stuff that we've gained to follow Christ you really gain everything and following Christ and you really lose nothing yeah I mean nothing at all so so yeah okay let's let's get into man what's sure assumptions so initially just to get some context on the reason we're even doing this I wanted to make sure that the Christians again understand that what we're trying to do is we're trying to create a dialogue I guess that can reach Mormons more efficiently so that you don't run into the same situation that I ran into which was you just don't get the context you don't get the terminology and you just give up and go tag you know agnosticism or atheism and so you know we want this to reach Mormons and at the same time we want Mormons to come to this video and if you're watching this we don't want this to like this is an anti Mormon literature we don't want anybody to shut off or be scared we're just gonna be talking about I might reference a couple of things from lds.org but mainly we're just staying in the Bible yeah and so what we want to do is make things crystal clear and coming from the Mormon I can explain a little bit more why Mormons are the way they are why they might be stubborn in certain situations I might be able to reach them in certain areas and so anyways so I want to get to the first questions though I want to talk about which is gonna go over grace and and so I think the greatest thing that could have happened but again we didn't have enough time that nights is like 10 o'clock yeah is to try and speak to me in the language that I understood and so the first question I have for you is first off if they're any Mormons that are watching this I really hope you are we're gonna try and make this video as efficient as possible and so we don't want Jeff repeating the same things that he repeats in so many other videos you already have this information out there and so for anybody that's at this point and if we don't give this topic enough body searched apology estudios I want you to look up how are we saved faith plus works question mark and I believe this is when you're out in Hawaii yeah I think you had a Protestant gentleman ask you yeah anyways we're gonna get into that because I have questions directly about your response to him but the first thing I want to ask is again speaking to the Mormon in his language can you use the structure of the Articles of Faith three and four and all identify them for you identify where they fall short and create a true Christian based article of faith to compare it to so three and four is we believe that mankind may be saved by obedience the laws and principles of the gospel I think it goes without saying that we can say man is saved by faith through grace you can just really just stake Ephesians 8 through 10 yeah right where that's at more along the the context of the rest of it is we believe in the first principles in the ordinances our first faith in the Lord Jesus Christ second repentance third baptism by immersion for the mission of sins and fourth the laying on of hands for the gift the Holy Ghost right and so can you take that and identify where that's wrong and build something that's Christian and so for example I remember you had a video where a two-part two-week sermon you were giving on baptism whether was in this set necessary or not yes and you go over how the gospel reaches how do you become Christian I believe you said it was gospel faith repentance and so is there any way that you can again I construct an article of faith that could reach a Mormon identify where it's wrong and show them what the actual gospel is right so in terms of thinking about what the Bible says about grace and faith the Bible teaches that grace is this is often said but I think it's a simple definition is unmerited favor it's favor from God that is unmerited it's a gift and so you would see God see Paul speak this way in Romans chapter 3 when he gives the universal indictment of all humanity of sin Jew and Gentile none right just none who seeks for God poison of ASPs is under their lips their feet are Swift to shed blood he says in that very same passage with this universal indictment on Jew and Gentile everybody is lost he says that the law will justify nobody for through the law comes the knowledge of sin and so Paul teaches explicitly about law works of law in Romans and his explanation of the gospel itself he says very clearly Romans chapter 3 after the universal indictment in verse 19 now we know that whatever the law says it speaks for those who are under the law so that every mouth may be stopped and the whole world may be held accountable to God so Paul says there the laws point is to shut your mouth shut shut you up it shuts not just not just Israel up it shuts the whole world up that's everybody because the law Paul says by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight since through the law comes the knowledge of sin so no one will be declared righteous in his sight through the law since through the law comes the knowledge of sin not just my knowledge of oh that sin but I think the law itself exasperates exasperate exasperates long-day exasperates the the problem of sin and a fallen human being when we're in the flesh in Adam lost the law comes to me and it actually provokes me because of my sinful condition but it creates within me an intimate knowledge of sin and it's supposed to Paul says be my schoolmaster to drive me to Jesus Paul never teaches Jesus never taught the Old Testament never taught that the law of God justified people before God's eyes that's not how Abraham was justified he was justified he's the father of our faith Genesis 15:6 through faith I have to let that hang for a second because if somebody says if Joseph says if Brigham says says if the Mormon Church says that we are the restoration of the true faith that means that your restoration of everything that goes all the way back to the promise made to Abraham through whom God was going to bless the entire world all the nations descendants as numerous as the Stars you can't understand the message of Jesus without understanding Abraham and that's Paul's whole argument right here in this very passage is he gets to that point how was Abraham justified by grace as a gift through His grace Paul teaches Romans 3 he was justified through faith when it was before he did circumcision and guess what it was before Isaac twenty years before Isaac was offered on the altar it was also about four hundred years before the law was given so Paul's whole point is the law never can save you it never was intended to save you it didn't save Abraham it was through faith alone and in this passage Paul says no human being will be justified in his sight but this is what I want to get to in terms of grace look what Paul says here in verse 21 but now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law that's key the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from of all although the law and the prophets bear witness to it in other words Paul saying this is not some new novel message now it's manifested apart from God's law but the law and the prophets testified to this the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe for there is no distinction for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and are justified that has declared righteous by His grace as a gift now here's what's key this is why I wanted to quote this to you yeah in terms of thinking about what the article of faith says Paul says here everyone's a sinner you're justified through faith and it is by His grace as a gift same word so Paul there's a little bit of doublespeak here he goes or he stutters he stutters he says you are justified by his grace as a gift it's as a gift gift hmm that's how much of a gift this is it's a gift gift that's how much of a gift so he says he says through the redemption that's in Christ Jesus whom God put forward as he propitiated by his blood perpetuation there is a word that means a full diversion of God's wrath Jesus absorbed the wrath of God in our place this was to show God's righteousness because in His divine forbearance his patience he passed over former sins of all of God's Old Testament people it was to show his righteousness at the present time so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus here's Paul's point how can God who is holy declare people righteous who are not righteous they're actually wicked well because he gives Jesus as the full absorption of his wrath so that God is a holy God remains a just God because he hasn't said in any way your sins don't matter I'm just gonna forget about it that's the God of every single religion in the world is it like say Islam for example is that he's a merciful God according to Muslims but if you say okay but how does he deal with the problem of human sin well he just forgives you so then he's not just because if you had any human name if you had any human judge in a court that had criminals in front of them who are truly guilty with the victim's standing behind them and the judge says why I just wanna be merciful you're free to go you've got a lot of problems there in terms of real crimes and brokenness that all are there and no judge would actually be on that stand very long if he's just letting criminals go because well people what's a is you are not a just judge you can't just let people go mm-hmm so what God does is he remains just because he doesn't ignore our sin he actually penalizes Jesus in our place and gives to him the full outpouring of his wrath and he justifies those who are in Christ through faith in Jesus and so what Paul teaches here as a salvation is a gift by God's grace it's a gift gift through the redemption that's in Jesus it's apart from works of law and this is where he Paul lands then what becomes of our boasting it is excluded by what kind of law by a law of works no but by the law of faith for we hold we maintain that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law hmm so Paul says here we we maintain who him the Apostles the early disciples of Jesus the leaders in the early church we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law some people say well where do you get the idea that the Bible says you're justified through faith alone well I'd say where do you want to start Old Testament or new but this is what I would say Paul says we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law faith apart from works of law is faith by itself faith alone but what's interesting here is that this little snapshot in terms of the articles of faith somebody might say what the articles of faith well no it's through obedience and faith yeah Paul says that's false that's false gospel it can't block and justify nobody it's a gift of God's grace through the redemption that's in Christ he says it's it's faith apart from works of law so then the Mormon response is immediate so what you're saying then is that we could just do whatever we want we could just send how we want it's amazing it's like Paul already anticipated your objection because literally two or three verses later after he says it's faith apart from any work of law he says in Romans 3:31 do we then overthrow the law by this faith by no means on the contrary we have hold the law we establish it so Paul's theology is this because it's faith alone because it's faith apart from works of because it's faith in Jesus who was the propitiation for us therefore we establish God's law because he now were saved can you define something for me that I know Mormons are probably to ask and I was asking at some point can you define the terminology of establishing the law mm-hmm what exactly doesn't mean to establish it and not rely on it yes that makes sense so in a that's Paul's I love it all the modern Mormon needs all we all need but all the modern Mormon needs to answer these questions honestly is one book if there's more but Romans because what Paul addresses in Romans is your very question it's it's all right there and it's connected to the entirety of the Bible the whole narrative the Bible so the Old Testament says a couple places Jeremiah 31:31 the New Covenant is coming and it's gonna be different that God's people broke the last covenant and God says the new one's gonna be different even though I was your husband and you broke the Covenant he says now I will put my law in your inward parts now instead of the law being outside of fallen people and stone tablets now God says in their New Covenant I will forgive your sins and I will never remember them and he says I'll put my law in your inward parts it's going to go from stone tablets on the outside of you exerting pressure so now it's going to be formed within you on the tablet of your heart different covenants okay and then in Ezekiel 36 another promise in a new covenant God says I'm gonna sprinkle clean water on you you'll be cleaned there's a cleansing there of sin I'll cleanse you of all your idols God says he says I will put my spirit within you I'll remove your heart of stone that's hard towards me and I'll give you a heart of flesh that's soft malleable towards me he says I'll put my spirit within you and I'll cause you to observe my statutes there's the Old Covenant promise of a new covenant and in that new covenant God doesn't say the law now is gone like many foolish evangelicals would say today I would say reject anybody you hear today the calls themselves an evangelical that says the Old Testament is no longer relevant or the law of God doesn't matter I would say that that view is not only heresy not only was rejected by the early church in the second century at the church when the earliest heresies ever like that arose within the church it's not biblical it's also not historic Christians have not held to that view in history because the Old Covenant specifically gives you promises of a new where the law of God is going to be a constituent element of the New Covenant not in any way to save us it never did it's not that in the Old Covenant we were saved by law and in the New Covenant we're not it's not that way the Old Covenant was also a covenant with in it of grace the law was given of course with particular strict standards and curses applied to the National people of Israel obey blessing disobey curse but the law of God was never seen by Jews to be in and of itself bad or a curse so this is what's interesting so Paul knows that Old Testament theology and he answers your question in this very text after he says we're not justified through law but through faith alone how is Abraham justified faith apart from any works he then moves on to the story of the two atoms Jesus and the first atom he says everybody who's in the first Adam receives death and condemnation that's every human being in existence we're all coming from the same parents which by the way caveat here racism sucks because it's a lie we're all part of the same human race every one of us come from the same parents and the problem we all have is not related to skin color or anything else it's related to our fallen condition and Adam but Paul says if you're an Adam there's death and condemnation he says if you're in Jesus you receive the gift of eternal life and righteousness and you're alive so then Paul says Romans 6 what shall we say then shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound just keep sinning now because the more I sin the more God's grace right God because really famous because I'm sinning but he has so much more grace to give Paul says this may it never be how shall we who died to sin continue to live in it and there is where he shows that the person who truly has faith in Jesus has entered into his death to sin and has been raised with him to newness of life you're a new creation in Christ so then Paul says the Old Testament gave us law Romans 7 and that law was holy and that law is good the problem is not what the law the problem is with a person who is dead in their sins and trespasses they can't do what the law requires and they're they're resistant to it so Paul's basic point there is how are we ever going to be delivered from this if the law itself only exacerbates the problem for me as a fallen person he says what's going to deliver me from that he says thanks be to God Jesus he says therefore there is now no condemnation for those who were in Christ Jesus you're no longer in the flesh you're no longer dead he says those who are in the flesh cannot Romans 8 cannot submit to God's law they can't do it they're not even able to do it Paul says they can't even do what's pleasing to God he says but you're not in the flesh you are in the spirit ezekiel 36 what's god say he's gonna do put a spear within us cause us to observe his statutes paul knows that so paul says if you're in the flesh and you're dead your relation to the law of god is hostility you can't do it you can't submit to it why because you're not alive because you're not in the spirit he says but for god's people who are in the spirit now they can actually do the righteous requirement of the law and paul says what is that love love does no harm to its neighbor love is the fulfillment of the law Jesus says that by the way it's not Paul theology it's the biblical theology just consider this for a second Jesus says the two greatest Commandments are to love the Lord had gone with our heart soul mind and strength and to love your neighbor as you love yourself he says all of the law and the prophets are built upon these two commandments those two love God love neighbor so what's interesting is that's not New Covenant law people are like oh the Old Testament all those laws now what just love God love neighbor it's like no Jesus says love God love neighbors the foundation of every law of God but the amazing thing in a New Covenant is now that you're alive from the dead now that your sins are washed away now that you are acquitted in God's sight now that you're in Jesus now that the Spirit of God and Wells you now that you can fulfill what the law required which was to love God and love neighbor the Christians relationship to the law of God now in a new covenant is now the laws in us now we establish the law why because we're alive spiritually okay now we're not hostile to God now I have a new a new relationship to God into his law we're now I'm not hostile to God into his law now I actually want to do it so when someone says to me and by the way I just want to say this to every Mormon watching this I would stand on the side of Mormons and point my finger at the person who professes to believe in Jesus and has no desire to follow him to love him to live a life of holiness to love his law I would say to that person who professes faith in Jesus says oh I'm saved I believe in Jesus but they have no hunger for righteousness no love for God's law they're sleeping and living with their girlfriend outside of marriage those sorts of things but they're professing faith in Jesus I would say you have every reason not to say that this person lost their salvation or not that they've done they haven't done enough to be saved I would say you have every reason to challenge whether or not they have ever come to life whether they ever actually believed in Jesus that's interesting I haven't thought about it that way that it's not that they've lost it it's did they ever have it and and by the way it it's powerful because John is the one who actually makes that point the Apostle John says they went out from us in order to show they were never really of us so he's starting on people who actually have banned in the faith and he says the answer to why is that they never were of us or how about Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount it's in Matthew the same text we ran earlier Jesus talks about on the last day there's going to people people who come to him and say the Lord Lord didn't we cast out demons in your name and do this in your name and do all these things by the way popular verse used by many people as a proof text to say you can lose your salvation very popular it's by the way right on the heels of Jesus condemning false teachers which is interesting okay and then he says many will come to me and say didn't we do all these things in your name and Jesus doesn't tell them that you lost your salvation he says this he says depart from me you workers of iniquity I never knew you not I knew you and you couldn't hack it I knew you you didn't do good enough stuff you had a new you and there weren't weren't enough good works I knew you and you fell he says depart from me you workers of iniquity I never knew you there never was a relationship with me never and so that is a powerful point to make there in terms of this intimate relationship we have with Jesus Jesus connects that intimacy well in in Matthew there with people saying I didn't ever have a relationship with you and then it's interesting in Matthew 25 same book on the last day when Jesus vindicates his people that they truly were his how does he do it he says he's going to have the shining moment where he basically broadcast to the world these people are mine and you're not and how does Jesus do it he says when I was thirsty he gave me something to drink I was hungry and you fed me I was in prison and you visited me and his people ago when when did we do that and Jesus says when you did it to the least of these you did it unto me so it's interesting on the last day there will be a vindication of God's people not that you did these things and so therefore you're saved but these things are the vindication that these are truly God's people what their good works their good works don't save them their good works are identifying the fact that they truly are the people of God so Paul's point in romans is that this is all part of God's narrative in history his plan was that he would save people through the Messiah it was never through works of law but now that God has brought Messiah and were alive from the dead now the law of God has its proper place in the world within God's people who are now alive and they can do it not perfectly because Paul addresses that elsewhere how to deal with personal sin but the point is if somebody's truly saved the Bible teaches that their life goes on transforming and being renewed okay so just real fast yeah and just this is one punch thing this is just a one punch all I would do is encourage somebody who is reading their articles of faith just go to the book of Galatians really the letter it's very very short and look what Paul says here where he says Roman Galatians chapter two he says we ourselves verse fifteen are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ so that we also believed in Christ Jesus in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law because by works of the law no one will be justified now I just want to say as a quick note he's not saying that two people who were saying hey man you just gotta work your way to heaven you can obey all this law like to get to heaven nope he said it to people who were acknowledging that Jesus died for sins and rose again from the dead and then you needed to believe in Jesus but what they were saying was that you at least needed to keep this one part of the law be circumcised like you gotta at least become Jewish before like you're saved so keep the Old Covenant sign of circumcision be brought under that and then you're good to go and yeah and it's faith in Jesus too and this is the problem with man-made religions who borrow from Christianity or the true faith is that it's so deceptive its cunning which is the subtlety the craftiness of Satan Paul refers to it in 2nd Corinthians 11 the craftiness of Satan that's that most man-made religions don't ever say it's all works what they say is that grace is necessary it's totally necessary you definitely need God's grace but only the true faith says that grace is sufficient Mormonism says grace is necessary but they do not believe grace is sufficient for Paul for Jesus for the Bible grace is sufficient to save you not just necessary and when you try to hook grace up with works in an effort to be right before God Paul says Galatians three welcome to the curse now you have to fulfill all of it how you doing that's Paul's point yeah did you receive God's Spirit through works of law or by hearing with faith Paul's point point to the Galatians as guys how did you become saved how'd you become believers tell me that did you hear and believe or did was it through works and every person would have gone well we heard the gospel we believed he says are you so foolish having begun by the spirit are you now being made perfect through the flesh through all this works of obedience are you now gonna make it that way he says Christ became a curse for us because the law of God is an expression of God's holiness Paul says if you're gonna submit to the law as a means of justification he says that now you're under its curse you have to fulfill all of it how are you doing to which everybody has to say not good and he says that's the glory of Jesus is that he became a curse for us even though he didn't break God's law he was treated by the father as though he did so that all who are in him receive the blessings of his righteousness and he receives the curse of the disobedience and that's the glory of the gospel okay so I have I have something that I know will be a stumbling block for Mormons that was something I remember are most of our conversation of the temple was about the subject grace of faith and you were driving a home point after point after point and I was just still confused okay and so there's this one issue that I know Mormons are always going to go to James - and you already talked about this in the video that we already relayed are you saved by grace by works but if you could define an aspect of a Christians life like you said you know we're saved by grace we established the law not perfectly and so the Mormon is going to ask what do you define that as is that no longer sin when we do it imperfectly is there a difference between an unbeliever sin and a believer sin and so the scripture I wanted to bring - to bring to your mind if I can find it really fast it's in first John 3:9 whosoever is born of God does not commit sin for a seed remaineth in him and he cannot sin because he is born of God now I I would I would hope this I don't want to really want to say I hope to say but it's difficult for me to say that once you accept Christ you will be perfect and you will never send any more in the way that I understand sin which is going against the law yeah and so can you explain what this is saying and what it should mean to a Mormon who is accepting Christianity should they because it's just like I asked you before are you swimming in and out of grace every time you make a mistake yeah and so this is where they're gonna get hung up on right so this goes back to the passage we were already in Romans three and four what I would encourage a Mormon to do who's questioning this is I would say read Romans four in Romans chapter 4 paul solidifies his argument about how a person who's justified before God how has God always done it he goes Abraham our forefather according to the faith a flesh he says how was he justified he says abraham believed god and it was credited to him as righteousness it was imputed to him it was charged to his account as righteousness the word there lagoon's Imai has to do with crediting charging up right accounting righteous and he says to the one who works romans for his wage is not credited as a gift but as what is due in other words if you're working for it what you get is a wage not a gift but this is a gift so that doesn't work he says but to the one who does not work but believes and him who justifies get this the wicked his faith is credited as righteousness that doesn't make any sense God credits imputes credits righteousness to the wicked how does God maintain his character and his reputation as a just God when he's actually crediting people righteous who are not the point is is imputation God credits to Christ our unrighteousness our sin our debt and he credits to us Christ's righteousness this is my point you swimming in out of grace no because you see the father doesn't look at me at any point in eternity in terms of my relationship with him in terms of my own righteousness that I've established my own obedience I only have standing before God I only stand through faith and I only stand because I have a foreign righteousness it's not my own I'm in Christ I'm hiding in him I have his righteousness and Paul says in Romans 4 he says David also speaks to the blessing of the man upon whom God credits righteousness apart from works God credits righteousness apart from any works so there's my works not counting my own righteousness not counting and got crediting to me righteousness and then it says in that same passage that God will not count my sin against me and Paul goes on to explain in Philippians 2 and this is gets at the heart of what you're asking he says this when he gives his resume says Pharisee tribe Benjamin he says all these things he says but I want to be found in him not having a righteousness of my own derived from the law but the one that comes from God from him through faith so is it in and out of righteousness I'm sinning he loves me he loves me not he loves me he loves me not no Paul says this if you're in Jesus you're in Christ you have his righteousness it's a foreign righteousness charged to I account through faith and so when that someone has come to Christ and turn from sin to trust in Jesus and has been joined to him in his death and resurrection you now declared righteous you're now forgiven of all of your sin you're now counted righteous and God now the righteousness that I have standing before God with which makes me reconciled to God is a foreign righteousness it's Jesus righteousness it's his perfection so when John is explaining in this passage and first John it's interesting because it's another example of proof texting someone says ah Christians if you're truly saved will never sin again where'd you ever get that idea well in John he says that you know those who have God's seed in them they don't sin they can't so you have a lot of weirdos that will teach and I have a a show up on our on this channel of us talking to a very peculiar man named Jessica Lee Peterson a very popular conservative commentator who actually does believe that once you're saved you can never sin which is interesting because I've been on a show three times and I've pointed out as sin to him that he's committed just on the shows that were on but he's not he's not buying it yeah that's interesting so talking about context John says here in the first letter the Saint you quoted from first John first John 3:9 three so first on three nine here's first John one first chapter he says verse 5 this is the message that we have heard from him and proclaim to you that God is light and in him is no darkness at all if we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness we lie and do not practice the truth here's the point his point is if you say you have fellowship with the one who is the light but you're walking that's your practice you're walking in darkness you're lying so then he says but if we walk in the light as in our practice we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship with one one with another and the blood of Jesus his son cleanses us from all sin this is interesting if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us so here's John interest speaking to the person who would interpret his words in chapter three as Christians don't sin here's him saying you're a liar if you say you have no sin the truth isn't even in you so there's John's context you can't make John's speak against himself yeah there's context but then he says this verse 9 if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness here's John speaking to a church full of Christians saying if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness the point there in chapter 3 is speaking to practice and it's much more easy to see in the Greek language if you get to unpacking the tenses and what the words mean you can see it in the context itself you don't have to be a Greek scholar to see this just read it in context but in terms of how the word is being used it has to do with practice it has to do with what identifies you what your employment is how you live your life how you walk in the dark so somewhat so it is right to say in terms of general Christian life and practice if somebody's walking in darkness unrepentantly they're walking in darkness that identifies them their sin identifies them that's what they do it's like their employment right somebody's a thief somebody's a drunkard that identifies them somebody is sexually immoral John's point is that the truth isn't in you you can't walk in darkness and and be in the light so all these things are identifier of whether a person actually is in the light whether they're walking in the light but in terms of how you and I have standing before God that's answered clearly in didactic scripts in it means teaching systematically it's explained by the Apostle Paul it's explained in Peter it's explained in John it's explained throughout the Old Testament the way that a person has standing before God and righteousness is only through faith in Jesus and that righteousness is a foreign righteousness so I guess would be good to end this which would just would be by saying this I stand before God as forgiving as as justified not ever not now not in the future through my own righteousness and obedience I don't want it on display before God so all my life of sanctification let's say I make it to 95 years old and God's been changing me and transform me and renewing me I don't want at 95 years old my own righteousness is standing before God is the basis of my relationship with him because even that is filthy rags before a holy God why because James says in James chapter 2 whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet stumbles in 1 point he's guilty of all of it so if I'm 95 years old walking with Jesus and I sin and violate God's law I'm guilty of transgressing God's law all of it so what do I want I want a righteousness that's not my own I want his righteousness I I want to stand before God boasting only in Jesus if God ever said to me and I already have a relationship with God this question doesn't come but if he were to ever ask me why should I let you into my presence I would only point one way I would say because Jesus I don't want my righteousness my obedience my works my ministry my labor I want none of that on display I only want Christ's righteousness I only want to be hiding in him and that is exactly what the New Testament teaches about how we have right standing with God it's only through Christ perfect yep I like that so the next the next topic that I want to jump into is baptism yeah so the Mormon Church is directly sent centered on principles and ordinances like we talked about in the articles of faith yeah and so there's a lot of there's a lot of the theology that's based around those ordinances because first you have to have somebody that has the priesthood in order to perform the ordinance yes and in seconds we are you know in the temples we're doing proxy baptisms or baptisms for the dead because baptism is a saving ordinance in their theology yes and so the couple of questions that I had about this is very quickly with this one and then I want to jump into something else actually you know I want to read this first and then I want to ask you the question so again referring to that two-week sermon or yeah two weeks sermon that you're giving about the necessity for baptism yeah this is probably one of the more lighthearted funnier things that you've said that I really appreciate it is that you were talking about the basically Paul says in the same light of circumcision anybody that is requiring circumcision I would hope that they cut themselves off right and so that's as far as we'll go because we want this family-friendly yeah going yeah in the same sense you would say I would suspect the same thing about baptism that anybody that requires baptism I would hope they hold you under right it's how serious he is about the requirement for any amount of works for salvation it's faith exactly yes and so to answer the Mormon as a Christian what does baptism mean what does it achieve what does it do for you if it's not saving you and if it's not saving you then why do it so baptism in the New Testament is is an ordinance some people call it a sacrament that is the sign of the new covenant ever Christians in agreement on that it's a sign of the new covenant while Christians in history have disagreed at times over baptismal mode should it be immersion should it be sprinkling should to be pouring and some Christians have disagreed on whether or not we should baptize infants as a sign of the covenant those sorts of things you know for example in the here we have Marcus's a Presbyterian he wants to baptize his children when they when they arrive but he doesn't believe that that baptism ultimately saves that child that's why they're in Christ they're saved through their baptism he believes us through faith in Christ alone but he believes it's a sign of the Covenant and God wants us to bring all of our children to and you know so that's how they view that but all believers believe that in the New Covenant baptism is a sign of the new covenant that you're part of the people of God in the family of God to sign so in the Old Covenant circumcision was a sign of the Covenant people of God in the New Covenant it's not circumcision its baptism that's the sign of the new covenant but what's interesting is that it's a command of Christ to be baptized so when someone says why bother being baptized if he hasn't save you I'd say because Jesus commanded it well it doesn't save me so why does it matter you apparently don't love Jesus because he said three to get baptized right yeah if you call him Lord why don't you want to obey Him and by the way that's exactly what Jesus says he says why do you call me Lord Lord and don't do what I say so if somebody was to say well then why bother I would say you have a very strange perspective of Jesus lordship and I question whether you really love him if you don't want to do what he says see we go back to the heart of the gospel have you truly repented and believed but what's interesting about baptism in the New Testament is that you see Paul and the Apostles and Jesus saying over and over and over it's through faith follow me repent and believe the gospel faith faith faith and just pick them you can pick a number of spots but say pick let's start with an easy one that everyone rapid mines around there's only one gospel there's only one way to be reconciled to God always has been it's only through faith alone at the cross itself you have Jesus dying next to two criminals well by the end of that day one of those criminals has faith in Jesus and Jesus promises and this day be with me in paradise well that nobody walked up to him and sprinkled him were poured over him or he didn't climb down from the cross to be baptized yeah he believed in Christ and was saved some might say well that's a unique situations okay how many Gospels are there how many ways are there to be reconciled to God because Jesus said it was by coming to him through faith that happened on the cross and there was no baptism involved there but then someone else says well okay no but it's but you need to be believe in Jesus and be baptized to be saved that's part of the gospel it's it's believe in Christ be baptized and then you're saved I say well that's not the gospel that Paul believed in because and I'll just give you a reference point here this sir in first Corinthians in 1st Corinthians chapter 1 this is a little conflict happening in Corinth is it 16 it's a first Corinthians chapter 1 yeah there you go you got it in I'll start by verse 10 in verse 10 he says I appeal to you brothers by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you agree and that there be no divisions among you but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment for it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you my brother's what I mean is that each one of you says I follow Paul or I follow Apollo's or I follow Cephas or I follow Christ is Christ divided was Paul crucified for you or were you baptized in the name of Paul I think God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius so that no one may say to you say that you were baptized in my name I did baptized also the household of stephanas beyond that I do not know whether i baptized anyone else for Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel Paul says here in this whole controversy of people who are now going with their celebrity preacher right that happened in the first century - Apollo's Paul well I'm of Christ I love that you know someone says I'm a Calvinist well I'm I'm a Christian like I am only a Christian well that's not a new controversy that happen in the Paul's day but notice what Paul says here he's he knows the gospel he knows how persons reconciled to God and if baptism was part of the gospel thing about how a person is reconciled repentance faith baptism saved well here's the master evangelist who led so many in the Roman Empire to Christ by the end of the first century here's the master of Angela saying I thank God I baptized none of you I don't even remember if I did anybody else he says God didn't send me to baptize but to preach the gospel he sees baptism and the gospel as two separate categories he's not diminishing the the value of either/or he recognizes the distinction between baptism and the call of the gospel to be reconciled to God faith in Jesus to be saved but baptism for Paul here's the thing if baptism was necessary for salvation how in the world could the master evangelist say I thank God i baptized none of you yeah Jesus didn't God didn't send me to baptize but to preach the gospel so here's an example of Paul creating a sharp distinction between the call of the gospel to be reconciled to God and baptism itself and thanking God now if it if it was required that I repent believe and be baptized and then be saved then this statement from Paul makes no sense but further proof of this is in terms of what faith is it's trust in Jesus Paul says if you have faith in Jesus you are reconciled to God you are justified you're in Christ you receive his righteousness that's peppered throughout the entire New Testament it's faith apart from any work of law it's faith apart from any obedience on my part but a key passage I would want to point to is Acts chapter 10 Cornelius and this is yeah this is the Apostle Peter preaching the gospel now Gentiles are now involved and as he preaches the gospel he says in verse chapter 10 verse 43 to him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins through his name everyone who what everyone believes in him and then he says what Peter was still saying these things the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word and the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed that's Jewish Christians because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles mm-hmm you ever notice when some people will say like you believe in Christ you baptized and then you get the Holy Spirit of God hears Gentiles hearing the gospel and now made alive now unto all by the Holy Spirit of God in what's Peter's response it says they were amazed because they get to the Holy Spirit poured out even on the Gentiles for they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God then Peter declared can anyone with hold water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have so here's Peter saying they are believers now who have received the same Holy Spirit as us should we do the water now so they've received the Spirit of God and have believed in Christ and been saved before they ever entered in the water that is that that is the amazing pattern that the Bible shows in terms of how a person walks through this Ordo salutis in a sense right yeah in terms of believing in Christ all those things they receive the Spirit of God they had believed in Christ and then the water and then the water okay so so I want to do something that's kind of fun it might be a little less for me but so obviously it's a Mormon missionary you in Jacksonville Florida in the Bible Belt you have to be I don't want to say customs the Bible but you need to somewhat know your way around it it's it's so hard for me to say something like that now coming out of the church and understanding that my prior understanding was completely false yeah but you know one of the major reasons again I wanted to have this conversation is I wanted to give you what I absolutely know what Mormons dialogue is so that you could just knock it out of the park and so there was a time I was in I was in Gainesville no I'm sorry not Gainesville was stark in Florida we had a pastor son I come up to us he's like hey it was almost some of you I love you guys you guys are amazing I appreciate what you guys do for the community can I take you guys lunch I want to talk about religion with you guys and I said absolutely my the guy I was working with was a little bit more timid he's a little bit newer we went we ate we got our scriptures out we started talking about a couple of things he first talked about a couple of things trying to show you know like contradictions in the church and anyways but what it boiled down to is we started talking about the thief on the cross and this is what my tract was for that and I would love for you to just pick this apart okay so basically the the scriptures that I would use is we would talk about how the thief on the cross three of them are on the cross he says with me you'll be with me on the morrow I believe is his verbiage and then what I use to the next scripture to transition what Christ is talking about is if you could let me know how many days was he so he died on the cross how many days was it until he arose out of the sepulchre well the Jewish accounting of days they would count any portion of a day as a day okay so Friday Saturday Sunday throughout yeah okay so basically what I would explain I was I was trying to get things right it was either three days that he rose there was 40 days that he stayed after that yeah correct so there was the the resurrection and then there was the time period before the Ascension perfect which by the way were right at ascension now hmm I'm not sure if you knew that we're right this is this is the the celebration of ascension is right now yeah which is awesome and I like I said I wish I would have known that when I was tremendously neglected part of the Christian calendar that historically Christians would make a big deal out of not just Good Friday and Resurrection Sunday but also Ascension Day was a day that he went up Daniel 7 to the Ancient of Days to receive that kingdom that Dominion that that that glory that would never pass away ascension is huge so go ahead sorry yes I don't know it was a period of time where Jesus was presenting himself alive Paul says by many proofs and at one point appeared to over 500 eyewitnesses at once Wow yeah I didn't know that much yeah and so so what I was trying to what I would piece together on my mission and what I would try to do is thief on the cross we would go to when Mary comes to him and I would I pointed out to the pastor's son what does Christ say at that time he says touch me not for I have not sent it into heaven what I would draw from that and before I go into this I want to make it explicitly clear for Christians that are watching this I promise you that I would say 95 to 90% of the Mormon missionaries you run into are not trying to deceive you it's that they don't understand it and they are trying to do their best and so with this relation I would say that well crisis to the thief you will be with me on the morrow but then he comes to Mary and says touch me not for I have not ascended into heaven and so I drew from that that the thief never went to happen it went to heaven and so then you questioned or at least the Mormon questions well where did he go and I believe it's in first Peter and I I think there's also another sectioning in Galatians I believe that talks about let me see if I can find it really fast it's in first Peter I know that and this is where I think you can bring a lot of context in I think I I think I'm getting what your email you asking the question of what what did he do why did he go yeah so first Peter 3 it's like 2 2 versus let me read this really faster so for Christ also hath once suffered for sins the just for the unjust that he might bring us unto God being put to death in the flesh but quickened by the spirit by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison which were sometime disobedient which wants long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah while the ark was preparing wherein few that is eight souls were saved by water so me as a Mormon what I took out of this is that there was the spirit prison and spirit paradise which is in the plan of salvation for Mormons and so this is how I explain well you know this is why Baptists the dead is for important that's why it wasn't just automatically damned because he was on the cross yeah and so anyways I would like to hear how you explain that so that there's more light brought to that yeah so in the Old Testament we see to be honest there's not a lot of explanation in the scriptures in terms of what that state looked like for the Old Testament Saints those who had trusted in God believe in God were credited righteousness apart from works same as Abraham they went to shield they went to the grave but then you also have those who didn't know God had not been part of God's people and they all died and where do they go that there's not a lot of explanation in terms of what does that look like before Christ accomplishes his work what does it look like you you do have this amazing little section of scripture where Jesus tells you himself a little a little snapshot of what it looks like and it's in Luke 16:19 and there's the rich man and Lazarus okay and that's and Jesus doesn't tell this as though it's a parable or here's some symbolism he tells a story of a rich man and Lazarus and of course people can read it for themselves but we know essentially how it ends and that's that they both died in it 16 right Luke 16 yeah I'll read verse 19 there was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day and at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus covered with sores who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table moreover even the dogs came and licked his sores the poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side so Abraham's bosom the rich man also died and was buried and then hey today's being in torment he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side and he called out father Abraham have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue for I am in anguish in this flame but Abraham said child remember that you in your lifetime received your good things and Lazarus and like men are his bad things but now he is comforted here and you are in anguish and besides all this between us and you as a great chasm has been fixed in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able and none may cross from there to us now here's the point this little snap shop of Hadees and Abraham's bosom so the basic way that Jewish thought went was that there was paradise or Abraham's bosom and then there was had a sore the place of the dead and what we know what we get a snapshot here from Christ about is that there was a place of torment for those who don't know God who are unbelievers and then there is Abraham's bosom or a place of paradise but it was a place that of course was not yet before the throne of God full redemption hasn't been accomplished it's like a holding place because Christ hasn't accomplished his work yet okay so when he says to the thief on the cross today he'll be with me in paradise that is that place of the Old Testament dead Saints who were ultimately awaiting that redemption and I do believe that when Christ died for those days he was proclaiming there the victory that had been accomplished they were all waiting for and I think the beauty of what you see in the book of Revelation is you see the Saints of God before the throne of God hmm now the people of God are before God's throne worshiping God they're right there so I think at least there's there's a start of an explanation in terms of what did it look like for the thief to go to paradise what was that like well I will say this as an unfortunate thing and that's that the Bible doesn't actually tell us a whole lot about what heaven quote/unquote heaven is like yeah except what it looks like here on earth which is the ultimate goal of Christ's work and redemption is that when the Messiah comes he's going to restore and renew all that was broken in terms of heaven and earth together when the garden was created heaven and earth are met right when sin enters the world there's a separation now a brokenness sin the curse depravity evil decay disease all of that takes place when the Messiah enters in the world as the second Adam he comes to restore all that had been broken in the fall and the curse so what we do know is that one day in the resurrection God has his people here on this earth in this world heaven and earth meet again but what does that experience like between now and then what's it like to be in heaven what's it like to be in God's presence at this point the answer I have is well the Bible talks a lot more about Hell than it ever does about heaven so I don't have a lot of answers except this Paul says that it's never ever entered into the mind of man what God has in store for those who love him so what I do say to believers who know God now what's it gonna be like I'll say this try your very best to think about how glorious it's going to be and you're not even close no eye has seen nor ear heard it's never entered into the mind of man what God has in store for those who love him so try your best dream try your best to think about what that's like and you're not even close gotcha so so to bring it all to a close this topic of baptism - I don't want to necessarily give a parable but an example that I had written down so his baptism essentially to be taken as a ring on your finger for example for marriage circumcision was to marry you to God but didn't necessarily mean salvation baptism marries you to Christ it doesn't necessarily it's like an outward symbol to sign just cuz you have a ring on your finger does not mean you have a wholesome amazing relationship with your spouse yeah it's actually I think quite a simple answer it could be explained in in tomes and shown to be beautiful and everything else but the simple explanation is let's go back to Abraham again you got to go back to Abraham because that's where all this stuff begins the promise of Isaac and Messiah and God blessing the entire world Paul's argument in Romans chapter 4 is that abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness and he was credited righteousness Paul's question as this was it before circumcision or after before Paul's argument is before so when was he credited righteousness before circumcision oh also before the law of God four hundred years before the law of God was given at Sinai so Abraham believes God God credits to him righteousness and then as a sign of an seal of the righteousness that he already had by faith he receives circumcision right so it was faith justification and circumcision sign of the Covenant in the New Covenant it's the same it's faith in Jesus it's a repentant faith by the way it's a faith that turns to God right and faith in Jesus and then you receive the sign of that seal of the righteousness that you already have and that's baptism now Christians disagree on sometimes the mode of baptism sprinkling pouring we have little in-house debates with each other over like what exactly is like what what's the most biblical way and I'm of course a reformed Baptist but you know where I land on it it's a baptism by immersion but but we don't divide with one another over that issue in terms of now we're now we're not the same body you know we're not the same church we just have in-house debates with each other over like what exactly that looks like but we all agree on is that it's faith in Jesus that justifies you that brings you to Christ and that baptism is a sign of the people of God it's a sign of the Covenant the New Covenant itself and so what does it mean it's an outward expression of the sign of the new covenant that you are in the people of God now there's a lot of ways to really explain how marvelous and majestic and beautiful that all is but ultimately baptism is an external sign of the new covenant that you are part of the people of God in the new covenant community gotcha yeah that's perfect okay wanna what time is it now actually do you want to maybe end here and do another one maybe next week or something yeah because I got a class coming right now yep so let's wrap okay I'll just do it like a wrap up yep so we're gonna wrap up now okay and then it will maybe do another one Lord willing next week yeah definitely okay with that yep okay so we'll do some time same day or so let's do as long we'll do as many as these as we can awesome I'm definitely open to doing that so for all of you guys have been watching this right now thank you so much for watching I encourage you guys to be praying for us as we continue this dialogue I do want to say to believers who are watching this Christians I hope that this does not become something that's a mere intellectual exercise where you take it just as head knowledge and oh isn't that really great if you're encouraged by this then I would say this goal of a Mormon today goal of a Mormon go create a relationship with a Mormon love them enough to actually engage with them in a conversation and to anybody who's latter-day saint watching this right now I just want to encourage you with with this we truly do care about you we love you for Christ's sake and we hope that this dialogue that we're having is a blessing to you and and I think if I can maybe you can say some last words here too sir if I could say my greatest desire of courses would be that that everyone comes to know Jesus but my greatest desire in a conversation we're having like this would be that latter-day saints who are watching this who are questioning their faith who are questioning the book of warm and they're questioning Joseph Smith would would not feel like because you've been deceived once and you've dedicated your life to something once that you found out wasn't true that you would give up on truth altogether or that you would abandon faith in the true Christ because now you're afraid because you were deceived before I want to encourage you with this this isn't about following Jeff Durban it's not about following any particular Church Presbyterian Baptist it is truly about coming to Christ and knowing him intimately as Savior this is not about any particular organization saying we're the true church come to us it is about Christ it is about salvation it's about knowing God I don't want you point you to so much to my work in my ministry as I want to point you to the Word of God so if I can give you a last word of encouragement I would tell you to go read the book of Romans don't read it to finish it read it to change read it to listen to God read it to get to know God and then I would encourage you to read the book of Galatians so those two books Romans and Galatians yeah just a final thing that I would say to Mormons is that when you're when you're watching videos for example the dialogue that we have the previous one that we had future ones to come it doesn't matter where you find the truth any advice that I would give at this point is please do not don't start your search for God or don't watching these videos with a prayer in your heart that says please don't let these discussions destroy my testimony because I feel when that is you're in there they're gonna almost hate me for it like of course I'm not gonna pray for that you know I'm not gonna pray in it but I just want a different a change of I wanna say a change of mine but different change of perspective don't be afraid to lose what you have just be encouraged and ask God to just show you the truth no matter what it is let that be the cause of your path don't be afraid to ask these questions the one thing that I would love to say as we close this is J Reuben Clark which was the second counselor of Heber J grant I believe which was a prophet of the church an amazing quote that he gave that's something that has led my path out of the church from this point is he says if we have the truth it ought not to be harmed with investigation and if we have not the truth it ought to be harmed and Mormons need to realize that we have people all over the world we have people born Christian atheist Mormon god knows where you are he knows where he placed you and this very well could be a test as the rich young ruler maybe he was born into into money and God placed him there to see how much is that is going to be is that gonna be worth to you and how much are you gonna hold on to that makes sense that's power and I want I want Mormons to realize that don't don't don't hold your heart down and say please don't let me lose what I have only think about what you can gain mm-hm so Jesus says in John 17:17 thy Word is truth so if you want truth according to Jesus which Mormons will always say they believe in Jesus and they love him and trust him so if you trust in Jesus and you want to go - What did he say was the truth he says thy Word is truth the Word of God and so if you want truth go to the source and I and I I'm really encouraged to hear you say that to be willing to say I'm gonna follow the truth wherever it is Jesus tells us where it's at it tells us where it's at so I encourage you to go there thanks man yeah all right so next week yeah okay sounds good all right well that was awesome [Music]

Channel: Apologia Studios

Views: 259,608

Rating: 4.7505212 out of 5

Keywords: jeff durbin, apologia church, apologia studios, mormon temple hidden camera, book of mormon, joseph smith false prophet, mormon general conference, i am a mormon, southpark joseph smith, mormonism, latter day saint, apologia mormon, apologia mormon tract, leaving mormonism, incredible conversation, mormon mission, mormon missionary, difference between christians and mormons

Id: -pTSllh7kJA

Length: 84min 54sec (5094 seconds)

Published: Sat May 12 2018

Reddit Comments

[u/angela_davis]

First thing you do when you leave Mormonism...grow a righteous beard.