BEST MORMON/CHRISTIAN DEBATE ON YOUTUBE

[Music] all right thank you for being patient and welcome everyone to the debate is Jesus enough my name is Erin Marshall and I will be your moderator for this evening Rochelle Christie is unapologetically a Christian apologetics organization we seek to give scientific philosophical and historical evidences that we think demonstrate that Christianity is true but at the same time everyone is invited to our meetings and everyone is invited to share their perspective not because we think everyone is right but because if we're going to find out what is true then we must be willing to challenge our own beliefs and have them challenged by others with the goal being that we'd be willing to change our beliefs if we were presented with good evidence that what we believe is wrong we are currently trying to get an official club started here at UVU so if you're interested in learning more about us if you're interested in helping us get started here at UVU please see me or Tom Kaylor after the event we'd love to talk to you about how we can get become official on this campus we are currently meeting in an unofficial capacity on Mondays from 11:30 to 12:30 for discussion in the Clarke building on the first floor by the cafe and everyone's invited this Monday although we might need a few more seats if all of you show up all right this brings us to why we are here tonight Aaron and quake who will be debating the topic is Jesus enough Aaron is an evangelical Christian quake who is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints they will be debating three topics tonight is salvation by faith alone our families forever and was there a great apostasy they have contradictory views on these topics they disagree and they both can't be right so what we are trying to do tonight is create a forum where these topics can be debated and discussed in a constructive manner and then you the audio it's must decide what you think on these issues you must decide who you think presented better evidence for their position you must be willing to examine these topics in a fuller way on your own and then you must have the courage to go wherever the evidence leads wherever that is that takes courage but that is part of the honest search for truth so on to the debate after a short introduction by each participant we will move into the three topics up for debate in each section the participants will get eight minutes for an opening statement and then each of them will get eight minutes to cross-examine each other we will do that three times for each segment and then each participant will have three minutes for a closing statement we will then have an opportunity to hear from you as we'll have about 30 minutes for Q&A we will try to limit each answer to about one minute or so so we can get as many questions as possible please ask a question and it is not an opportunity to monologue for 20 minutes we want to hear from the debaters and then we get a chance to hear from all of you afterwards in discussions that can go till the end of the night please also refrain from clapping booing hissing or otherwise calling out until the end of each segment we want this to be a respectful exchange we hope that you will all be blessed from this discussion tonight so let me briefly introduce the two debaters and then we will give each of them two minutes to further introduce themselves Aaron chef wolof is an evangelical Christian he has husband to Stacey father to one son and two daughters he works as a full-time computer programmer he's an elder at the Mission Church in South Jordan and a research associate with Mormonism research ministry quake uu L is a latter-day Saint youtuber and writer he is a former host of Saints unscripted also formerly known as three Mormons and is the host of the upcoming latter-day Saint Series this is the show he is a convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints so I will now turn it over to Aaron for his two-minute introduction followed by quake uu giving a two-minute introduction as well Jesus is more than enough my cup overflows I want to convince you today that you can have all of Jesus without Joseph Smith in your life thank you for coming can we get a raise of hands who here is an evangelical okay and here here's a latter-day Saint great glad you're here who is here in the category of other perhaps excellent excellent thank you to quake you for doing this debate with me thank you to rashia Christi for sponsoring it it's good to normalise substantive spirited debates because truth matters this is not a game our religious truth claims say something about the nature of reality and structured debates set up a respectful and controlled environment for the exchange of ideas LDS Apostle John Taylor did a public debate in France in 1850 you might be interested to read about it on scoring or analyzing this debate I want to give you a tip Jesus says the one who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory but the one who seeks the glory of the one who sent him is true and in him there is no falsehood so Jesus's idea of a truth teller is one who is sent by another who is seeking the glory of another who sent him and who is appealing to the authoritative word of another so a good way to discern who is telling the truth here is to ask who is seeking to glorify Jesus Christ and who is appealing to his authoritative word I yield my time so if I raise of hands who here is in college at BYU or you view or esthetician school or whoa look at that you should be on the date right now but you're here thank you I love that I know that we said no clapping or anything like that but it's a Friday night and you guys came here can we actually have you guys give a round of applause for yourself this is really cool I do agree with a lot of Aaron's opening statement actually I want everyone here to know that Jesus Christ is enough he's the path to our salvation and our exaltation Jesus Christ is the reason we exist and he's the reason we'll live forever however you must understand that in some circles there may be a difference between the latter-day Saint Jesus and the evangelical Jesus Allah today Saint Jesus is the Jesus who helped create the world with the father he's the one who died for the sins of all people and he's the one that everyone can come unto in this life or in the next to be with God forever the image Jellicle Jesus specifically the Calvinistic Jesus of Aaron's philosophy and religion is Jesus of a limited atonement who only died for a certain amount of people he's the Jesus who will not and has chosen not to save those who died as Muslims in Syria or those who died in the camps at Auschwitz who were Jews he is a Jesus who predestined and predetermined the majority of humankind to fail now obviously we both read the same New Testament and we see the beautiful teachings and the things that Christ did however when we get into the deeper theology of it we find some pretty different characteristics that I believe should be spoken about and should be debated about now both of us are just people I'm just a youtuber and my job is I actually throw parties and not that impressive and Aaron's a computer programmer and a pastor both impressive what a weird way to end but I hope you enjoyed the debate and I hope that the spirit may be with you and you can make a spiritually informed and logical decision thank you okay the first topic of debate will be is salvation by faith alone Aaron arguing for the affirmative will make his case for eight minutes followed by quake ooh for the same time period good first ring okay Jesus is my proxy he kept celestial law on my behalf he died on a cross on my behalf he intercedes on my behalf and Christians receive Jesus as our proxy with empty handed faith not by our worthiness Christians receive salvation by faith alone and here is what I mean we receive the gift of eternal life right now by hearing with faith justice this is what Jesus says in John 5 whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life we received the gift of the Holy Ghost by hearing with faith Galatians three - did you receive the spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith we were sealed with the Holy Spirit and we were guaranteed our inheritance when we heard and believed seasons 113 and him you also when you heard the word of truth the gospel of your salvation and believed in him were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance God made us alive and raised us up with him in the heavenly places check it out fusions - for even when we were dead in our trespasses God made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved and raised us up with him and seated us with him in heavenly places in Christ Jesus so where is my position right now as a believer where am i already at so to speak where will I assuredly go when I die what is as good it's done where possible Paul says I am raised with Christ I am seated with Christ in the heavenlies and LDS parlance I'm already in the celestial kingdom God justifies the ungodly by faith not by works romans 4 verse 4 now to him who works his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due and to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness so some definitions for you when I say salvation is by faith alone by faith alone I mean empty handed faith empty handed faith has declared spiritual bankruptcy I'm not offering up any supposed worthiness I'm not like a cat bringing a mouse to the front doorstep when I say salvation I don't mean the minimalistic notion of being resurrected neither do I mean being put in a lower kingdom where Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ do not dwell Christians call that hell when I say salvation by faith alone what I mean is that I received eternal life I received the gift of the Holy Ghost I was adopted as a child of God I was sealed with the Holy Spirit I was guaranteed my inheritance I was raised with Christ I was made alive all by hearing with empty handed faith not by my covenant keeping obedience or worthiness let me try to help you out with some analogies it's as though Jesus has a temple recommend and he gives it to me name on the template recommend Jesus Christ on behalf of Aaron Schock olive it's also like the second anointing there is an LDS ceremony from its distinct from the first anointing in the endowment it's only made available to those in the upper echelons of LDS leadership I'd encourage you to google it second anointing it seals their exaltation in this life it makes it assured and it makes their calling an election shore would that be nice well when I first heard about this I thought wow what a great analogy for how Christians already see the relationship in Christ we have a backstage pass into the celestial kingdom with Christ let me give you a framework for how works fit into this evidence not merit purpose not prerequisite evidence mind works inevitably and necessarily show the tested genuineness of my faith James 2:18 I will show you my faith by my works not merit evidence not merit I'm not earning anything as we already covered in Romans 4 for if I work for it it's not grace but it's wages owed but if I don't work for it if I trust him who justifies the ungodly my faith is counted for righteousness so evidence not merit purpose Jesus says let your light shine before others that they may see your good works and give glory to your father who is in heaven it's not a prerequisite evidence not merit purpose not prerequisite as Ephesians 2:9 says my salvation is not a result salvation as I've defined it not a result of my works Titus 3:5 he saved us not because of works done in righteousness but according to his own mercy so I don't have this long list of lifetime achievements that I have to finally accomplish and get to the end and arrive at the salvation benefits I'm talking about it's front-loaded for me it's front-loaded so evidence not merit purpose not prerequisite and finally salvation by faith alone is the only way you can have genuine obedience that comes from a heart that has been melted by grace in Luke 7 of a sinful woman stood behind Jesus tears dropping down onto his feet wiping his feet with her hair Jesus tells a story to Peter there were two debtors one out fifty denarii and one had five hundred denarii the moneylender cancels the debt of the both and Jesus asks Peter which one will loved him more and Peter responds the one who is forgiven for the greater debt and Jesus says that's right the one who is forgiven little loves little if you want to genuinely from the bottom of your carnal heart worship Jesus Christ like that sinful woman receive salvation by hearing with faith salvation as that I've defined it repent of seeking to earn your exaltation they yield my time so one thing let let's turn this on so one thing latter-day saints are not very good at is speaking in a way of historic Protestant tradition we don't really yell at the pulpit we don't quote scriptures sometimes out of context and use a forceful tone the pretty low-maintenance low-key and I want you to remember that I wanted to hear the things tonight and not just take it on the emotional or vocal inflection that you hear but really think about the words that are spoken it's easy to yell and make an impression but the Spirit is a soft and quiet voice and that is how Christ leads you I want to start by reading the New Testament here now when we talk about faith it's a bit of a difficult concept faith is a word that can sometimes be hard to define faith as many people would see it is following Jesus Christ spiritually logically theologically and emotionally you believe that Christ is your Savior and the way to heaven period however somewhere along the way after crisis church was lost on earth we came up with two separate categories of faith or works believing in Christ or doing works as if those two things are separate they're not faith and works are both wheels on a bicycle you can ride a unicycle and fumble around a unicycle of evangelical Christianity or you can ride a bike straight to the path to heaven James chapter 2 verse 18 James says yay a man may say thou has faith and I have works shew me thy faith without thy works and I will shew thee my faith by my works they'll believe is there is one God thou do as well the devil's also believe and tremble but wilt thou know o vain man that faith without works is dead was not Abraham our Father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar see you saw how faith wrought with his works and by works was faith made perfect and the scripture was fulfilled which saith abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness and he was called the friend of God he see then that by works a man is justified and not by faith only other translations have this you see that works are the way a man is justified and not by faith alone for as the body without the Spirit is dead so faith without works is also dead I want to make another point here that Aaron does not really believe in salvation by faith alone Aaron is a Calvinist as I mentioned and their tradition is to quote Sola feed a faith alone all day long but unfortunately it seems to be all talk and little theological implementation or action they're not saved by their faith alone they have nothing to do with their salvation God predestined in their religion who is saved beforehand and everything they do acts in accordance with God's decree and will they are not saved by their faith alone they are saved by God's decree and implementation of their destiny to be saved or not determined before their existence more in the debate I'm going to press pastor shuffle wallop on this but I want you to keep this in mind as beautiful words as we can muster about except Jesus except Jesus the reality is only one of us on stage truly believes that you have agency to accept Jesus yourself and one believes that it was decreed before you weren't even alive and that you cannot act out of that decree or will of God to quote further there is the founder of Aaron's religious tradition a man named John Calvin in fact every year in October thirty-first Aaron's church the Mission Church a fine institution celebrates Reformation day a day that honors the Protestant reformers namely Martin Luther and John Calvin here's a quote by John Calvin by predestination we mean the eternal decree of God by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man John Calvin also said God preordained for his own glory and the display of his attributes of mercy and justice a part of the human race without any merit of their own repeat without any merit of their own to eternal salvation and another part and just punishment of their sin to eternal damnation another quote is now since the arrangement of all things is in the hand of God since to him belongs the disposal of life and death he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel in such a way that individuals are born who are doomed from the womb to certain death and are to glorify him by their destruction to glorify God by their destruction aborted babies glorify God by their destruction Syrian children murdered by bombs glorify God by their destruction if anyone alleges that no necessity is laid upon them by the Providence of God but rather that they are created by him in that condition because he foresaw their future depravity he says something but he does not say enough if God merely foresaw human events and did not also arrange into of them at his pleasure there might be room for agitating the question how far has foreknowledge amounts to necessity essentially Calvin is saying if you just believe that God sort of saw what happened and lets people choose on their own you're wrong God specifically makes every single thing happen every person who is saved he declares them saved before and every person who's damned he declares them damned before and we're talking about billions and billions of people now of course what many pastors and ministers are taught to do in their theological seminaries when the subject is brought up is to vaguely recite scriptures out of context to deflect from the reality of the point it's likely that pastor Jaffa wellif may do this he may use words like sovereignty and power in hopes that you feel it blasphemous to question why God would decree cause to pass or predestined all of the Jewish children now switch to be sent from the concentration camp ovens to the fiery pits of hell because they are predestined and to be in the Holocaust and they were predestined not to be saved you must understand that we're talking about faith alone your faith by evangelical Christianity your faith alone is not enough to save you your faith alone doesn't exist it's God's predetermined istic will and brothers and sisters that is not the doctrine of Christ I yield my time kWe coup in second samuel 12 13 it says the Lord has put away your sin this is the Prophet Nathan talking to David in the Joseph Smith translation it says the LORD hath not put away thy sin which translation do you agree with I you have to quote the verse before and after because like I said I don't want to respond to anything that is quoted out of context Nathan is confronting David for his sin of adultery and murder okay so he confronts him and then David says I have sinned against the Lord and Nathan says the Lord has put away your sin does that seem reasonable or does Joseph Smith's translation the Lord has not put away thy sin seem more reasonable well I do know that in the Joseph Smith translation Joseph Smith fixes the mistake that the biblical copyist wrote when they said that it was inspired that David to grab a javelin and try to kill Nathan so so do you agree with the jst on this verse I have to read more about it okay okay you don't see 132 verse 39 says of David he hath fallen from his exaltation do you agree with DNC 132 that David has fallen from his exaltation yes I believe if you break your covenants and cheat on your spouse you can lose your exaltation okay David according to Joseph fielding Smith committed a dreadful crime and all his life afterward he sought for forgiveness some of the Psalms portray the English of his soul yet David is still paying for his sin do you agree with Joseph fielding Smith that David is still paying for his sin in hell right now well he fell from exultation not salvation and those are two important distinction but is he paying for his sin right now that's the question and essentially he is paying for his sin because he paid for his sin if Jesus Christ died for his sins why would he be paying for a payment that was already transacted well because he was to receive exaltation which comes by keeping covenants salvation is a general journey to heaven and yes David will go to heaven but he will not receive the deification to become like God so yes be saved okay romans 4 verse 5 it says that god justifies the ungodly to him who believes him but to him who believes on him who justifies the ungodly the Joseph Smith translation says that God justify us not the ungodly do you agree with the Joseph Smith translation yes I don't believe ungodliness is good ok what is the point of Romans verses or chapters 1 through 3 that we are godly or they were ungodly when you come into Christ his righteousness is imputed unto you and you are godly in his eyes so the person receiving this righteousness are they godly or ungodly they are they are godly however they are still human beings who sin okay Psalm 51 verse 1 says have mercy on me O God this is David speaking according to your steadfast love according to your abundant mercy blot out my transgressions was this request granted to David in the fullest sense where his transgressions blotted out that would depend on what timeline we're looking at at all right Psalm 51 verse 14 says David says deliver me from blood-guiltiness O God O God of my salvation was David per his request to God delivered from his blood guiltiness so it's it's very similar to the last question I'd like take to act to give an answer because I haven't really been able to give an answer if you're looking at it from the viewpoint of Christ viewing you after Judgment Day of course you're accounted righteous but if you're if Christ is viewing you from the standpoint of your sin in that current time period obviously there's a difference so from judgment onward he is righteous and clean before that he's still in his sins because he is still a sinner and he has rebelled against the Covenant he made to gate Psalm 51 verse 11 says David again cast me not away from your presence will David spend eternity outside of the permanent presence of Heavenly Father I don't know I'm not heaven you don't know but David said cast me not away from your presence is this is some asam's was it not granted to him well many people can call unto God and have still led wicked lives against the spirit and knew that they were leading against the spirit and called on him and okay last moment Psalm 23 verse 6 says surely goodness and follow surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever this is David again will David dwell in the house of the Lord forever that that is up to the Lord these are Psalms David wrote they are his pleas to God but he perhaps didn't get what he asked for here maybe he's not dwelling in the house of the Lord forever well Judgment Day hasn't come yeah I mean that's a future event all people are at war look favorite apostles Bruce mcConkie murderers are forgiven eventually but only in the sense that all their sins are forgiven except the sin of the against the Holy Ghost they are not forgiven in the sense that celestial salvation is made available to them after they have paid the full penalty for their crime they shall go to a Telestial inheritance do you think what McConkey said here is true and applicable to david as a murderer yes he's not my favorite apostle yes of all people who are murdering people will receive a part of Christ's grace the fact that they're not suffering for these sins eternity eternally is because of the grace of the time we'll be in the they will not be forgiven here in the sense he says that they won't have a celestial exaltation made available to them is that true well you don't even believe that that celestial existed you this does David have celestial exaltation available to him so he's not forgiven in that sense according to McConkey and he is saved but will most likely not be exalted on me out of killing people okay Romans 4th verses 4 and 5 we've read it to the one who works his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due and to the one who does not work but trust him who justifies the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness let me quote a couple more verses and ask you about it next verse just as David also speaks of the blessing of the ones whom God counts righteousness apart from works then he quotes psalm 32 of David again blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven and whose sins are covered blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin do you think that it was proper for David to uphold sorry you can think it's proper for Paul to uphold David as a role model of receiving forgiveness yes David received lots of forgiveness and the doctrine covenants makes that clear however but not total forgiveness well he's totally forgiven because he not inhale for his sins however a extra reward that not all mankind will get David will most likely not get he's not forgiven in the sense that McConkey defined he does not have celestial exultation he will not be in the presence of God he will be consigned to a lower kingdom he will be in the presence of Christ Jesus yes in the Telestial Kingdom really well does it's okay you're quoting Joseph fielding Smith saying the papers Makati or maybe no Bruce mcConkie okay it will go through intellectual inheritance do you think murders go to the terrestrial Kingdom well if that depends if you're still defined as a murderer an unrepentant person who murders people is defined as a murderer if those who are saved are not defined as murderers in Christ ice my dad is is that Jesus permanently dwelling in the terrestrial Kingdom or is he visiting there according to Elias literature you can take whatever opinion you want I don't really to me that is I'm asking you your opinion oh my opinion is that Christ can go to any of the heavens he'd like to but according to LDS literature in your opinion does Christ dwell permanently in the terrestrial Kingdom or does he merely visit there well that's like saying according to evangelical literature there are thousands of writers thousands of a pimp according to your church's website through institutional channels governed by your own prophets and apostles you'll find contradictory things because it's a website with thousands of articles thousands of essays so 10 seconds left yeah okay thanks Aaron did God predestined every baby who was aborted to be aborted every single thing according to Ephesians 1:11 has been predestined I'll quote it for you in him we have obtained an inheritance having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will he works all things according to the counsel of his will including the very murder of Jesus Christ one of the most dramatic sins in history did God predestined 9/11 he predestined everything so any question you asked me he's going to be a yes about predestined okay I've got got a lot so hold on if a man burns down a synagogue sells children into trafficking funds Isis but accepts the evangelical Jesus on his deathbed is he an air of heaven absolutely Amen yes it's made by the blood of Jesus is much really forgiven graciously loved and justified is Mother Teresa who died a Catholic and heir of heaven probably not okay who is the ultimate judge of someone's discipleship man or Jesus there's an ultimate judge God but he is he has entrusted his people his disciples to make provisional fruitful judgments based on the evidence of people's lives right so the ultimate judge of know Jesus do you believe Mormonism is a restoration of ancient Judaism or ancient Christianity no not at all do you believe the LDS temple is a singular sir yes that the temple the temple ceremony okay any of the temple ceremonies do you believe they are a restoration of ancient Judaic or Christian practices we're like Freemasonry and Joseph Smith's hodgepodge of whether he's making up if modern Mormonism is not a restoration of ancient Judaism are ancient how then are ancient Apostles condemnation of works geared toward modern latter-day saints say it again if modern Mormonism is not a restoration of ancient Judaism by your agree how our agent Apostles condemnation of works gear toward modern latter-day saint I don't think ancient apostles condemned works so I don't extend the question oh I'm just going by your opening monologue you spoke a little bit about how it's not really about what you're doing and more just your faith alone and these things people define by the dictionary and culturally as works all right my works are celebrated as an evidence of my faith not as a merit not as a prerequisite but as a purpose of my life so they have a role they're not being condemned they're being condemned when they're done as a prerequisite whereas something that I'm doing to merit or fully earn exaltation as your leaders teach did God predestined the LDS temple to exist absolutely every sin every horrible soon of the latter-day Saint religion just like the Assyrians conquests of a Northern Kingdom and the Babylonians conquest of the southern kingdom the language of Scripture is that God ultimately did that he governed it he orchestrated it and according to acts 4 verses 27 and 28 the most dramatic sin in all of human history was literally predestined by God and all of the related parties were predestined to do the role in it thank you did God predestined the Book of Mormon yes did he not predestined every word written on the pages of the book of Mark yes not everything that God predestined is something that he is pleased with God has a way of our gaining things that he hates did God predestined who is saved before they were alive that's literally what the text says in Romans 9 did God predestined all of the evangelicals in this room to be evangelical ultimately yeah did God predestined all the latter's say latter-day saints in this room to be latter-day saints oh I don't know about that I think that a lot of you people who are gonna crash and burn in Mormonism and you're not gonna be Mormonism in 10 years and people like me are gonna be trying to share the gospel with you because Mormonism burned you over please mate well it looks let's keep it let's keep it sweet we love burning did God predestined my ancestors who were taken from Ghana and thrown in boats and shipped over and had their families separated and some were hung some were chopped into pieces some were lit on fire did he predestined the slavery and torture of the people in my family about 250 years ago my god is so big that he has governed an orchestrated history that literally every single act of evil it's not outside of his control all of evil and all of Satan is on a leash and Jesus Christ has orchestrated things such that he gets maximal glory and he has decided that sin should be a part of history did Anne Frank who died of typhoid fever as we know and she died a practicing Jewish girl a beautiful intelligent Jewish girl that was her religion did God predestined her to be Jewish sure did God predestined her to be sent to the camps yes did God predestined her to burn in hell afterward it seems so yes I don't believe she's innocent of sin I think she was worthy of condemnation according to Roman's one and two she's got the law of God written on her heart and she by Nature is carnal and she does not love God she does not have a disposition toward worshipping God and she needs to be born again there's no free passes around this you have to be born again because you're corrupt including you Quaker yes the corrupt and Frank absolutely everyone well how about this last year a high school girl and the American Fork area was taken by a terrible terrible man beaten tortured she was assaulted and raped repeatedly they found her body in the woods did God predestined the rape of that but that fifth-grade girl and her beating and assault did he predestinate before the foundations of the world I would disagree with the view that you have elsewhere at least favored that God doesn't know the definite future so God doesn't know these kinds of actions that will come to pass I would instead favor the view that God has a meaning in every act of suffering that this girl can be told by a Christian if you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ you can claim Romans 8:28 all things work together for good and you could say with Genesis 50:20 including the burning of an Frank works for good Genesis 50:20 Joseph says to his brothers you meant it for evil but God meant it for good what are the what is the good part of having an Frank died in a camp and be sent to burn for eternity and help what is the good in that plan to me but I do know that God has a way of governing even more sinful acts that led to the salvation of his people if God can predestined the sin that was the murder of Jesus Christ on the cross and bring it for my good then he can predestined that kind of evil for a good I can trust him for that so just to be clear you believe it is good and it works for God's good that and Frank was tortured and works for God's good but it is not in and of itself morally good God has a way of ordaining things that he hates he can ordain according to Romans 11 all things are from him and through him and to him and we can say God decree things that are bad that's literally what Nathan says to David when he's confronted I only have a couple seconds left so I'd like to get one last question if God ordained things that are bad is God then the father of sin he's not the father of the sin of sending these the morally culpable origin God has a way of B naught as the origin of sin he could be the primary cause of all things without being morally culpable from for secondary causes all right well I'll yield the last 17 seconds I promise you and Frank's not in hell and people and that God did not for destined 9/11 it's okay okay we will now move on to topic 2 of the evening was there a great apostasy quake ooh we'll be taking the affirmative so he will go first for eight minutes followed by Aaron again please no calling out or wooing during the eight minutes the great apostasy we latter-day Saints believe it and occurred and if many evangelical Christians do not believe it occurred I'm going to read you some scriptures of the New Testament and I would like you to think about what the Apostles are saying is going on in their church Matthew 24 says then shade then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted and shall kill you and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake and then shall many be offended and shall betray one another and shall hate one another and many false prophets shall rise and shall deceive many acts 20 says for I know this Christ is saying after my departing shall Grievous wolves enter in among you people of his church not despairing flock also of your own selves shall men arise speaking perverse things to draw away the disciples after them by these two verses and a litany of other verses in the New Testament we see that there was an apostasy taking place that people were apostatize in from the truth we believe this apostasy lasted for quite a bit of time evangelicals often assert that latter-day saints disbelieve Christ when he stated that the gates of hell would not prevail against the church this is blatantly false and it's misleading the gates of hell did not prevail for hell to have prevailed a victory would have to have been announced well Judgment Day is not here the Second Coming has not taken place of course we know Christ will win but 0 latter-day saints believe the gates of Hell prevailed in a basketball game the winner is not announced until the buzzer rings and the final score is totaled and everyone can see it on the wall well we're still in the game the reality of the great apostasy does not equate to Hell prevailing rather it demonstrates the accuracy of the New Testament apostles who made clear that the wickedness that would arise in the church a look at the churches of the Middle Ages shows this to be true however this debate is between evangelicals and latter-day saints so let's look at the Protestant Reformation and ask if these reformers were inspired of God or if they're following in the footsteps of a dark and evil tradition let's focus on two men John Calvin and Martin Luther two people again that the mission church celebrates every year on October 31st but before the someone to play I'm gonna play a game real quick I'm gonna read a quote and I honestly want you to ask yourself if you think this quote is by Martin Luther the founder of the Protestant Reformation or Adolf Hitler first to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn so that no man will ever see again a stone or cinder of them the Jews this is to be done to honor our Lord and of Christendom so that God might see that we are Christians and do not condone only tolerating such public lying cursing and blasting of his son and of his Christians for whatever he tolerated in the past and only and I myself was unaware of it it will be pardoned by God but if now that we're informed were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews existing right before our very nose in which they lie about blaspheme curse and vilify and defame Christ it would be the same as if we were doing all of this who said this but Martin Luther raise your hands Adolf Hitler raise your hands it was both Hitler was quoting Martin Luther another quote is second I advised if their houses also be razed and destroyed for they pursue and then the same aims as in their synagogues and said they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn like the gypsies this will bring home to them that are not masters in in our country as they boast their living in exile in captivity third I advise all their prayer books and Talmudic writings in which such idolatries lies cursing and blasphemy or toffee taken from them but what will happen even if we do bird down the Jews synagogues we forbid forbid them to publicly praise God they will keep still they will still keep doing it in secret as we know that they were doing it in secret it is the same as if they were doing it publicly therefore the blind Jews are truly stupid fools Martin Luther this is all found in a book Martin Luther wrote the book is called the Jews and their lives the founder of the Protestant Reformation the person who started Aaron's religious tradition was kind of a Nazi before Nazis in fact Kristallnacht the first Nazi attack against the Jews was done in Martin Luther's birthday his birthday it is an in arguable fact that Martin Luther was a hezbi heavy inspiration to the Nazi Party as he was one of the founders of Germany Hitler used his words and his legacy to galvanize the German people toward Nazism he also thought he was a prophet he says however I need not have any title or name to praise highly the word office and work with chaya from God and which you blind blasphemers defile and persecute beyond measure I trust my praise will overcome your defiling just as my justice will overcome your injustice I shall no longer do you the honor of allowing you or even an angel from heaven to judge my teaching or examine it I shall not have it judged by any man not even by an angel for I'm certain of it I shall be your judge and even the angels judge through this teaching whoever does not accept my teaching may not be saved that is a quote from Martin Luther another person I spoke about was mr. John Calvin who quoted about a Protestant theologian named Michael Servetus who didn't believe in the Trinity he said sir Vedas had just sent me a long volume of his ravings if I can set he will come here I will not give my word for if he comes here if my authority is worth anything I will never do I will never permit him to depart alive he had Michael surveyed a set on fire John Calvin actually set many many people on fire murdered many many people and his followers then played a large role in the genocide of the 200 million indigenous people in the Americas and a heavy role in the African slave trade now Calvin also thought he was next to an apostle and I'll read that quote probably later in the cross-examination but it's important to note that throughout history we see that the church is dissipating in the New Testament and the Protestant Reformation did not fix that they continued to do terrible wicked things murdered many many people lit many people on fire responsible for the deaths of thousands the torture of thousands of people and their founder hated the Jews not a far jump to believe that God predestined and Frank to go to the ovens and hell after not that hard to get that conclusion is it plot Protestants played a large role in the African slave trade 12 million slaves told were taken many de Europe Arab nations and many to South and North America now the Protestants did do a fine job and helping end the slave trade in the United States but it was mostly Methodists and Quakers to groups that the majority of the evangelical world does not accept today to be on par with true evangelical Christianity however they had another stronghold historically they took over the American theological seminaries and they banned black people from the theological seminaries these are the same seminaries most of these American pastors who currently preach went to people like John Brodus and basil Manley jr. and William Williams the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary founders were members of a terrorist organization known as the Ku Klux Klan and in 1924 they had 6 million members it is the largest terrorist organization in American history killed hundreds of people so we can see from the dissipation of the early of Christchurch to even now many evangelicals are still living in the great apostasy every single time Protestants had an opportunity with great influence to do good they chose to murder and kill a lot of people that is the historical tradition death and despair Jesus did not let his bride die he did not let his flock be destroyed he did not let his church which he built be prevailed against and he did not let his kingdom which he planned to be uprooted Jesus gives straightforward assurance that the church would persist he says quote I tell you you are Peter and on this rock I will build my church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it at the end of Matthew Jesus Commission's his disciples with a view to the evangelism of all the nations and he says I am with you always even to the end of the age in Ephesians 5 Jesus is described as a groom to his bride the church he cherishes her he died for her he cleanses her with the water of the word in John 10 Jesus is the Good Shepherd who faithfully tends to his flock and effectively gathers his sheep Jesus says that he chose his disciples to go and bear fruit that abides he says you did not choose me but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide in the Gospel of Matthew chapter 13 we have parables about the uninterrupted growth of the kingdom we'll start with the parable of the wheat and tares in the parable of the wheat and tares you have two sewers the first shows the good seed in the field and while his men are sleeping the enemy comes and sews weeds his men asked the master do you want us to uproot the weeds and the master declines saying that to do so what would uproot the wheat when he says let both grow together until the harvest Jesus then gives his own interpretation he literally helps you out with the interpretation of it he says the one who sews the good seed is the son of man the field is the world and the good seed are the sons of the kingdom the weeds are the sons of the Evil One and the enemy who sowed them is the devil the harvest is at the end of the age and the Reapers are angels just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire so it will be at the end of the age Joseph Smith saw this parable as a threat to his great apostasy narrative BYU Professor Charles Harrell rightly observes quote DNC 86 three recasts this parable as a reference to the apostasy explaining that the terrors quote choke the wheat and drive the church into the wilderness this still quoting Harrell here this altered rendering changes the sense of the parable from the biblical account where the wheat wasn't choked but continued to grow and was gathered safely into the barn there is never any mention even in the New Testament interpretation Jesus's own interpretation of the parable that the children of the kingdom would be overcome or that a second growing season ie a restoration would be necessary this parable as it stands consistently fits the new testament perspective that the kingdom would survive any perils until the Savior's return so to Jesus this is not about this is me now so to Jesus this is not about the sorry to Jesus this is about the survival and perpetual growth of the kingdom but to Joseph Smith this parable was partly about the destruction and the replanting of the kingdom Charles Harrell goes on other parables in Matthew 13 convey a similar idea of the kingdom's gradual uninterrupted growth the parable of the mustard seed for example indicates that the kingdom that Christ set up was to begin small but would gradually grow into a huge large mature tree Joseph Smith however interpreted the parable as representing quote the churches that shall come forth in the latter days with the mustard seed symbolizing the Book of Mormon sprouting out of the earth finally there is the parable of the leaven which was put into three measures of meal until the whole was leavened this seems to convey the same idea as the other parables a gradual spreading growth of the kingdom that Christ established according to Joseph Smith however this parable refers to the latter days as quote the Church of the latter-day saints as it has taken its rise from a little leaven that was put into the three witnesses so no more Harold Lee this is me now so while Jesus gives us kingdom growth parables that entail a durable perpetual Kingdom with a single growing season with gradual uninterrupted growth Joseph Smith takes a chainsaw to the words of Jesus and violates them to suit his own purpose my friends this was not faithful to the gospel or to the words of Jesus this was not humble this was arrogant of Joseph Smith on May 26 1844 Joseph Smith preached the following as reported by his trusted Clerk Thomas Bullock quote I have more to boast of than any man ever had I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam a large majority of the whole stood by me neither Paul John Peters nor Jesus ever did it I boast that no man ever did such a work as I the followers of Jesus ran away from him but the Latter day Saints never ran away from me yet to this we Christians say quote Psalm 40 blessed is the man who makes the Lord his trust who does not turn to the proud to those who go astray after a lie my friends latter-day saints whom I love give God glory for what he did in the Lord Jesus Christ Jesus set up a church that would not be prevailed against he has a bribe that he didn't let die Jesus has a flock that he has effectively gathered and protected and he planted a kingdom that did not need a second growing season in Hebrews 12:28 therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken Christians are grateful for that therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken in Ephesians 3:21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations forever and ever now since I have a minute and a half left I want to speak to you latter-day saints here I know that my mannerisms right now are probably shocking to you I'm pretty lively right I'm pretty forceful right now and there's a time and a place for sitting down drinking coffee or something else you could have posted and pop a caffeine pill still word of wisdom compliant we could have a great conversation and we can be gentle with each other but quake who is a false teacher and this is not the time and place to be nice I want to be forceful with you because I love you this is blasphemy what Joseph Smith did he takes the words of Jesus Christ and he takes a chainsaw and he warps them to what he what suits his narrative that's not right that's arrogant that's arrogant that's arrogant it's arrogant of Joseph Smith to say that he has done a better job than Jesus at keeping the church together especially because while the Old Covenant didn't secure what it demanded the New Covenant did while the while look listen the Bible says in Christ in the Messiah we would have a kingdom that would not be shaken so Jesus gets the glory for planting a kingdom that did not need a second growing season and Christians give him the glory for that so repent repent of believing what Joseph Smith has said about the great apostasy Aaron you quoted the king fall at discourse about Joseph Smith bragging and boasting the King full of discourse that's proud - that's very arrogant he said that we could make him gods and God Himself was once a man he became a God that's super arrogant but that's a different kind of arrogance my mistake man not been the king of all discourse but the point is do you know the part of the quote that you did not include you have there in doubt he builds it on 2nd Corinthians 11 and he says that he has suffered more than Paul well actually I have a quote right here it says learn to become a bit more humble it seems that you think you were a know-it-all on every subject which people are saying to Joseph which to me shows a person was a great deal of boasting going on maybe you're a compensating for something that you don't have you should know especially since your father your founder followed the same manner as you quoting I say again let no man thank me full if otherwise yet has a fool received me that I may boast a little second Corinthians was Paul also wrong in the wedding speech Paul boasts in his sufferings he doesn't boast about doing a better job than Jesus at gathering the church that's it's that I'm sorry that's just not what it really does matter read the part again you think I don't I don't understand but I'll get on to kind of cross-examining you but a question I have is was John Calvin justified in the burning of witches and Michael Servetus let's just grant your premise that he did all that just for the state you did it's a fact I want you to go way that you described it let's take the way you've described it and multiply it by 10 okay make it even worse I am so glad that John Calvin did not claim to be an apostle a prophet because I would hate to be a part of a religion that has to throw its apostles and prophets under the bus well do you agree with this quote that John Calvin said this Paul and he would approve his Apostleship does not say that he had acquired some one City for Christ but had propagated the gospel far and wide had not built on another man's foundation but planted churches where the name of his Lord was unheard the Apostles therefore were sent forth to bring back the world from its revolt to true obedience of God and everywhere to establish his kingdom prophets he means not all interpreters of the Divine Will but those who excelled by special revelation none such now exists or less manifest by Yvette evangelist I mean those who while inferior in rank of the Apostles were next to them in office and acted as their substitutes do you agree with John Calvin when he said that that I guess to highlight the the very important part evangelist knows how well Z it is to me to throat God John Calvin into the bus by the way the Protestant Reformation did not start with Martin Luther well I'm just your quit year statement before where you said John Calvin didn't think he was an apostle his own words state that he thought he was next to an apostle and had the same authority as them as an evangelist yes he sang by an evangelist he is in the same authority as an apostle those are his words I mean if he says that being an evangelist makes him equal to the authority of apostle man I'm so happy to kick him under the bus I'm a Protestant I believe in salvation sorry as scripture is my final authority he I don't hold him it to be an apostle a prophet therefore I can throw them under the bus I would not want to be a part of a religion that has to throw its apostles and prophets under the bus well my question is if if you can throw some of John Calvin's teachings under the bus well if necessary be you're a Calvinist I mean if you've publicly spoken of being a Calvinist of all times and the Calvinist movement is named after John Calvin correct uh Martin Luther in a book called bondage of the will where he basically had a lot of the same seedling ideas and he was an Augustinian monk a lot of this goes way back this is all I'm not defending Martin Luther I'm just asking you you are I count Luther was before Calvin and he had yes idea of the bondage of the will he did he did not have a Arminian view of free will and he he was rooting a lot of his ideas in the Bible and he was an Augustinian monk this predates Calvin this is this is right basically publicly revered to John Calvin and your church does when have I publicly revealed to John Cal many times online even in our last debate a couple years ago you did you can go find the video online and watch it for yourself ok I'll be glad to but so I'm happy to quote Calvin where he's great but where he's not great like Martin Luther's not great at the end of his life the way he treats Jews I am so happy to treat Martin Luther like you treat Bruce mcConkie I mean I like Bruce mcConkie like Martin Luther I know okay I don't believe you should try to kill Jews is what I'm saying I'm really bad to kill Jews you should do it I'm bad nutri I'm happy to treat John Calvin and Martin Luther if necessary like you treat Brigham Young I like him he was a prophet he taught a lot of things you're embarrassed of you know he didn't teach to kill Jews he didn't eat to that he taught something worse Brigham Young taught something worse than killing Jews ah you lost me there pal no they got you right here Brigham Young taught that Adam was God that's even worse it's not worse than killing Jews it is let's stay okay we're getting off but uh hi dolla tree is worse than murder Romans one literally teaches that the root of the sin Oh to which god hands people over to you leave is idolatry I'm asking the questions do you believe that getting something theologically wrong is worse than the death of six million Jews the sin wasn't being wrong it's in worse no the sin was being arrogant Brigham Young defied the Word of the Living Lord living Lord with a living God with that blasphemy that is ten times worse Kate we don't we I don't agree that it's arrogance or anything like that but let's say that it is okay let's say he was wrong Brit do you believe Brigham Young being wrong is worse than the death of six million Jews do you really believe that because I hope not Brigham Young deserves to be in Hell eternally consciously its minted forever for not worshipping God is the greatest of all beings the Most High well if it happens God predestined it so I mean Gloria so Leo is that a question my next guess I can't get off that subject here you can't just debate it's not about what you want it to be it's many ways my question to you next question is what you disagree with Joseph Smith's teachings on the plurality of gods it's there's about 60 million latter-day saints that exist in the world and many of them believe in that doctrine some are not familiar with it but you know they understand that it's there do you believe Joseph Smith's in your view false teaching or air teaching of godhood is word and the armenian genocide taking place I'll make it easier for me if Brigham Young or CSAT Joseph Smith if Joseph Smith had murdered a man and then he had top-floor allottee of gods I think plurality of God's teaching it's at the top of the list and an asset I asked them Armenian Genocide is what I asked it idolatry is qualitatively worse than a multitude of murders okay I yield my time okay thanks for hanging in there quickie yes quite a while right here Paul says in first Corinthians 15 for I delivered to you setting up a question as of first importance what I received that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures that he was buried that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures and that he appeared to Cephas in the twelve and so forth so he he begins this by saying what I delivered to you as of first importance would you say that these are fundamental principles of the gospel sure sure okay some Joseph fielding Smith says Satan had obtained such power over their thinking that the fundamental principles of the gospel ceased to exist among them this is talking about the great apostasy would you agree that in the great apostasy the fundamental principles of the gospel ceased to exist yes okay and do you believe that death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ preached is are the fundamental principles of the gospel well I reason the word fundamental I it kind of depends upon the first important tool yes they are very important yes okay which of the fundamental principles of the gospel listed by Paul ceased to exist would you please read your quote one more time for me by your quote eyes died for our sins and accordance with scriptures he was buried he was raised on the third day and he appeared to Cephas and the rest right so those are some fundamental principles of the gospel but obviously there's a lot more loving your neighbor that cost us a lot of those things are lost in the great apostasy as we can tell okay Bruce mcConkie says after our Lord's first coming and before his dreadful return there is to be a day of absolute total and complete apostasy from the truth men are to be left to themselves wanders and darkness without hope and without God in the world would you agree with Bruce mcConkie since learning the great apostasy that people were without hope and without God in the world that nobody had God and had salvific hope in the Lord I believe that nobody had a fullness of selfic hope in the Lord okay that's great but we're people without hope and without God in the world where there was there nobody was there anybody that didn't fit that just description well I'm not going to interpret Bruce armor konkey for him neither of us or him we can't tell what he fully meant by those words but obviously those people who live during the great apostasy got another one go by Bruce mcConkie the following away shall be complete this is a sufficient thought answer thank you the falling away following away shall be complete the apostasy universal gross darkness shall be everywhere the gospel shall not be found in any nation among any kindred would you agree that during the great apostasy the gospel was not found in any nation among any kindred yes I believe was the great apostasy I believe that they were aired they were wrong it was was the gospel not found in any nation yet the gospel was not found in any nation yes thanks for thanks for the straightforward answer does the Book of Mormon anywhere predict an apostasy involving the priesthood or the church being taken from the earth well Moroni talks about it quite a bit when he's bearing the plates as the last disciple he really knows about and the earth as far as the Book of Mormon people are describing the church is taken away but the church entirely is taken from the earth these are people that didn't have much knowledge of other nations they're speaking about their specific geographic relations both in the Bible that's some question that's not my question well you can't you can't ask me a global model question in if this is really about the great apostasy I can ask you about global models well you're asking from the Book of Mormon which is why it's inconsistent it's a book inform is anywhere predict a global apostasy involving the priesthood or the church being taken from the entire entire global earth if it was the book of the globe of disciples it should it's not it's about a tribe of Native Americans I think it's a silly question okay BYU Charles BYU Professor Charles Harrell says the Book of Mormon makes no prediction of an apostasy which involves either the priesthood or the church being taken from the earth you would disagree with mr. Charles Harold I don't know who this guy is I'm sure I'll have a conversation with him that means nothing to me probably a wonderful guy isn't more about his content that he says the Book of Mormon doesn't predict a global apostasy it doesn't have to it's about a tribe of Native Americans Charles Harold goes on the Book of Mormon doesn't ever suggest that the Church of the Lamb would be taken from the earth only that in the latter days its members would be few because of the wickedness and in abominations of a who set upon many waters would you agree with him that the Book of Mormon doesn't suggest that the Church of the Lamb would be taken from the earth so I would disagree with him but again this is a quote I'd have to read his entire full essay because people can be quoting out of context so-called this is my doctrine the development of Mormon theology it was sold at Deseret book for a while he goes on prior to 1834 there was no mention of priesthood being taken from the earth or restored for that matter it isn't until several years after the reservation of the church that apostasy narratives began to include a loss of authority along Essentials sorry saving ordinances thus paving the way for the current LDS understanding of the great apostasy would you disagree with him yes let's see here I know you know you're asking me questions but when was that book published because you find new developments every six years ago yeah that's why I mean it's BYU had a hold conference on the great apostasy yeah a very sonic yet what were some takeaways you had from I I didn't go I hate to admit I didn't go to there at the apostasy conference that's fine I didn't go to the apostasy conference yeah I hope you're happy yeah that's good man no worries I didn't either but they published their papers what were the two texts that you use in their presentation you quoted when you're quoting Acts you did not spare the flock what was the other text you used to support the great apostasy oh I was quoting these aren't stapled Oh Mathew and X which one in Matthew verse 20 Matthew chapter 24 rather which verse I don't actually have the verses listed here just the quotes so what was the point you were trying to make with it oh well that they're talking about how people will be hated in the apostles and disciples will be hated and people will hunt them and kill them and there will be a rejection of the people okay so how many false prophet is this satisfy the definition that Mormonism gives of the great apostasy well the great apostasy starts with the we in tears there is deceit there are false prophets and false teachers that deceive many of the people how's that Rasta see because Protestants already believe there's gonna be false apostles were executing sprockets right so that doesn't give you the great apostasy it just gives you apostasy well every time period has a beginning and I'm quoting this as the beginning of the seeds that are planted of it okay so what would eventually lead to what we call as the great okay but what verse exists in the New Testament that points to the great apostasy the entire obliteration of the church from the earth after my departing shall Grievous wolves enter in among you not sparing the flock also of your own selves shall men arise speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them and Paul also speaks of a great falling away that must come all right this sec so he's talking to Ephesian elders right so is he telling them to prepare for this because they won't last or is he telling them to be ready for it so that they could help him dear through it well that's up for the debate if Paul even knew that the great apostasy was going to occur he seems to just be understanding that apostasy is going on you're quoting his hundred quoting this verse it seems that well yeah in hindsight we can tell that there was a great apostasy based on all of the things that happened but the apostles a lot of them didn't even know when Christ was coming back and they thought he was come back in my lifetime and they were wrong and then they backed out with the Apostles don't have all the information and that's all right they're still apostles chosen by the Lord okay the final topic of the evening is the question our families forever quake who will be taking the affirmative position and thus he will lead off for 8 minutes followed by Aaron for 8 minutes as well boy the tension in this room oh my gosh can you feel it just thick it is a thick tension of okay so I'm first again thank you guys for your charity and no it's been there's been some heat thrown back and forth and there was a bit of time which it was seemed to be kind of uncontrollable so thank you guys for your charity and and and and staying quiet at that time cuz if you think it was weird for you try being up here with us Jews believed in eternal marriage roughly starting at the Second Temple period ancient and medieval Jews Jewish texts reference a mother God or heavenly mother the Matrona and this is found in the Zohar and the Felicia bethe Israel the Ethiopian Jews a test in philosophy Baruch and v Brooke rather who who was a scribe of Jeremiah the quote says I asked the angel who conducted me and said to him who enters through this gate he who guided me answered and said to me blessed are those who enter through this gate the husband remains with his wife and the wife remains with her husband anyone here familiar with Barack or beta Israel or Ethiopian Jews are really just foreign Abrahamic traditions that are not in America it's hard to because we're very you know evangelicalism is a very America centric religion but these Eastern nations often paint an interesting picture that we should start to pick up on in a test and in a test in ancient Jewish texts joseph and aseneth the heavenly messenger tells a senate behold I have given you today to Joseph for a bride and he himself will be your bridegroom for ever and ever justly the Lord the god of Joseph has chosen you as a bride for Joseph because he is the firstborn of God and you shall be called a daughter of the Most High and a bride of Joseph from now and forever so we can tell anciently this isn't something Joseph Smith made up that marriage can last forever families are forever seems to be attested to in ancient Judaism and Malachi two states this yet ye say wherefore because the Lord hath been a witness between thee and the wife of values against whom thou has dealt treacherously yet is she like companion and the wife of the Covenant and did not he make one yet had he the residue of spirit and wherefore one that he might seek a godly seed wherefore take heed to your spirit and let none deal treacherously against the wife we see that marriage is described as sort of a covenant or relationship that they're put as one together in the Bible this is a beautiful beautiful thing for anyone wishing to learn more about this I recommend reading Noel B Reynolds essay the status of women in Old Testament marriage the language of leaving your father and mother and cleave unto one together and the claim that that she would be bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh is primarily covenant to language signifying the intensely shared identity of two persons who are not genetically related that's a quote from that essay now of course the best way to understand what the ancients thought of internal marriages to ask the church fathers that are consistently referenced by Christians so first let's ask what is marriage before I get to the church fathers I want to ask what is marriage I don't I'm a single person on stage trying to tell you what what marriage is about right marriage is the binding of two people in love to support one another raise children and commit their families to God would all people give a nod that that is a good definition of marriage right well pastor shuffle wellif believes that God will band this in the next life so what would I heaven without eternal marriage look like would it be against the rules for a man who was married to his wife to spend time with her the next life is that against the rules is it against the rules for them to hug or embrace or kiss in the next life is it against the rules for them to claim they're married or United as one in the next life we still have memories from this life so do they just pretend they were never in love or what God wipe away their emotional connection when they get to heaven are they only allowed to see each other once a week once every thousand years how do you regulate or stop them from that covenant they already made how do you stop them from being married some make the claim that God's presence is the only love we need well it's a very nice Pinterest quote but it doesn't really mean anything evangelical Christians don't really know anything about heaven and I say that with respect and most evangelicals tend to reject Paul's words that we will become joint heirs with Christ or Timothy's declaration that if we suffer we shall also reign with him given that they reject that will ever be equal or rule with Christ so what are we doing in heaven are we praying forever are we working what is the sociality of heaven actually like someone may say it's something so amazing you can't even conceive of it again we're here to debate specifics and not hyperbolic emotional statements they don't really mean anything what is heaven what are you doing in heaven if not progressing now only two evangelicals reject the specifics of heaven that are described they reject the idea of covenant ole love outlined by the ancient Jews who fathered the biblical text they believe God destroys and shuts off the love of the husband and wife in the next life and they can't be together Latter day Saints on the other hand embrace God's promise that marriage is an everlasting covenant and that love persists that God keeps true to his promises we affirm the biblical teachings of deification with God that will be like him and with him and I believe that anything less is a vague underhand and anti eternal gospel message and standpoint the reality is if you're married right now that's a good thing and your love will continue to last it won't just be shut off when you die your marriage is something more important God told Adam and Eve that they should be together you told Adam that's not good for man to be alone so why would it be good for man to be alone in heaven some would make the claim that well on in heaven you're with all the people you love you with the disciples so you don't need to be married anymore but on earth you're still with people so why not be alone here the reality is that it's such a silly thing to be upset or angry about that you're going to be married forever who would be upset about that it's it's a it's a hard fight it's a weird hill to die on the reality is marriage is an eternal covenant relationship that God has displayed the ancient texts affirm it that he was also in that covenant elationship and it's a beautiful thing that we can partake of that as well yield my time some day I will have a hundred more mothers than I do now I will enjoy a forever family better than the nuclear family I will enjoy my wife more deeply than I do now yet without marriage and without sex and my joy will not be building up my own Kingdom to call my own in becoming a god or in having my own spirit children worship me as their God know my forever family's greatest joy will be dwelling with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ listen to Jesus he reorients the forever family around those who do the will of the Father Matthew 12 here he points to his disciples here are my mother and my brothers whoever does the will of my father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother Jesus demands from you and allegiance over your family to himself and promises a new family that is a hundredfold bigger and better marked in 29 truly I say to you there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father a children or lands for my sake and for the gospel who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands with persecutions and in the age to come eternal life this is staggering jesus promises a hundred fold mothers to those who give up family in this life for his sake the nuclear family unit isn't big enough to account for the forever family that I will have in Christ Jesus esteems the life of a celibate single person for the sake of the kingdom as a completely legitimate path Jesus has asked about divorce he gives a really strict and high ethnic about marriage and divorce and his disciples reply by saying if such is the case of a man with his wife it's better not to marry and Jesus responds not everyone can receive the same but only to those to whom it is given there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven Paul teaches to live properly in our present circumstances yet in anticipation of no longer being married he says for now on let those who have wives live as though they have none for the present form of this world is passing away in the same chapter he councils his people in Corinth to stay single if they can if possible to have single-minded devotion to Jesus Christ Jesus teaches that there will be no marriage in the resurrection he says as he's confronted by the Sadducees with a scenario there's a lady who has a succession of seven husbands each dies the joke is she's a really bad cook but they're all dead and they asked Jesus which one will she be married to in the resurrection and Jesus replies you are wrong because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God or in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels in heaven Robert Bowman comments the issue Jesus was discussing with the Sadducees is not was not when marriages would be performed but to whom individuals married to more than one spouse in this life would be to in the next if we understand Jesus to be saying only that the time to perform marriages is in this life then he didn't answer the Sadducees question at all so this isn't about the urgency of getting /li married in this life this is about the resurrection power of God to transform human existence into something better even better than marriage Christian's we don't have any reason to have any anxiety over relationships and connections with people in the resurrection Paul says according he says to the Corinthian community who had tribalistic issues he said let no one boast in men for all things are yours whether Paul or Apollo's or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present of the future all are yours and you are Christ and Christ is God's so no FOMO no fear of missing out it's all line in Christ Jesus Jesus says there he is going to prepare a place for me to bring me back to where he is it's not a game Sunday YouTube stunt this is theology Jesus says in my father's house are many rooms the point here is spaciousness not separation he says if it were not so would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you and if I go to prepare a place for you I will come again and take you to myself that where I am you may be also Jesus isn't threatening his disciples with the prospect of living in a separate Kingdom that he may or may not occasionally visit he is preparing rooms that are in in the singular father's house that are where the father and the son are and that are with all the believers Jeffrey R Holland says in an LDS temple open house video quote I don't know how to speak of heaven in the traditional lovely Paradis cycle beauty that we speak of heaven I wouldn't know how to speak of heaven without my wife my children it would not be heaven let me contrast this with a story when my wife and I moved to Orem we lived in a basement apartment and the host invited the BYU professor in the local ward to come over and I asked him about Joseph Smith's sexual relationships with us some of us plural lives and he agreed to it that had happened and he looked at my wife at one point and he said as she is that right here Stacey he looked at my wife and he said don't you want to be married to your husband forever and she said no I won't need to be I will I will be with Christ and I wanted to kiss her I knew exactly what she meant my wife doesn't depend on me or her eternal happiness in Christ neither do i her we can both say together to Christ in Psalm 73 who the lion heaven with you and there is nothing on earth that I desire besides you my wife and I can say forever together with David in Psalm 16 you are my Lord and I have no good apart from you as for the Saints in the land they are the excellent ones and whom is all my delight in your presence is fullness of joy at your right hand are pleasures forevermore my wife and I forever can say with David in Psalm 23 to Christ surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever God declares that it is not good for man to be alone when does he state that it is good for man to be alone in heaven I don't believe our gonna be alone in heaven well you know this isn't the the subject of marriage right because we're not alone on earth either so in regard to marriage when did he say that it is good to not be married in heaven when he said that there was literally no one else on earth but you obviously know that God knew that they would have children correct and he continued to ask that his people be married and that he continued to like we see in Malachi have people covenant aliy married together when there were people on earth echoing that which is found in Genesis so I'm asking clearly this goes beyond the Garden of Eden you're married now so I'm asking you when does he say in the New Testament that you should not it will not be married in the next life and that it's not good for you to be married in the next life in Matthew 22 he explains that the resurrection transforms things so radically that we no longer are married we no longer marry or are given in marriage but obviously we know that their eternal reward of heaven afterward and resurrection on the time of judgment or separate events so again so the resurrection a time of judgment laid out in Revelation and then the actual dwelling in the heavenly place afterwards those are two different events okay so I'd rather you referred to one but I'm speaking about the other yeah we don't believe we're going to be given in marriage either the resurrection because all things must be judged everything must be done no one's gonna be given marriage in the resurrection you have to do it beforehand actually it's my understanding that those who have not attained to the resurrection who are otherwise we're but are not yet married according to LDS thought resurrected beings at after the first resurrection will do proxy marriages on behalf of people who are in spirit prison yet to be resurrected so yes latter-day saint theology still be floating I don't have a quote for you right now yes I just think if you have another way to solve a loophole let me know well as a latter-day saint I believe it's pretty clearly taught that the time of Resurrection Judgment Day when Judgment will be administered is clearly given marriage has to be done before then the Apostles have said that quite a bit of time we do proxy work in this life beforehand resurrection is judgment so much a word after word I'm not sure that's a question more of a clarification does God the Father have a gender is he literally a male no God actually made gender he's not conforming to some system of the universe or he's learning about gender from the laws of the universe he made gender you can thank God for literally so he's gone literally a father he is a father in the sense that he made me according to acts 17 was the father of the poetic that is really cool yeah yeah in acts 17 it Paul quotes from pagan poetry and says we are the offspring of God and to support that he says in him we live and move and have our being so in the sense that I oak to God my own very existence I am I am a child of God and elsewhere in the New Testament we are adopted by the Father through faith in Jesus Christ permanently sealed to him put in his house even though we were unworthy and so yeah he becomes he becomes my father I have two adopted daughters I'm literally their father I'm literally their father I don't need to give them DNA for them to be my daughter's Lord by Allah lot okay we won't get into that of it but biblically speaking you don't believe God the Father is an actual father in this sense of the way the word is defined always it's more of a poetic term would you say God doesn't need male body parts and a wife to create a universe and forget it and he got spirit babies in popular it's God gender non-binary he doesn't he created gender it's his idea so it gender in terms of the heavens is not a painting and absolute thing it's kind of a subjective non it's a non binary it's not it's a anything good that reflects the nature of God in womanhood and in manhood points back to a collective beauty in the single beam of God will you be male in the next life absolutely will your wife be a woman in the next slab salutely so are you made physically in the image of God as stated in Genesis Genesis says that I'm to be fruitful multiply and represent God having dominion over the earth and what it means to be in the image of God is that I'm suitably made to represent him over the rest of creation it doesn't mean that God has fingernails but does it mean that you were made in the image and likeness of God because those are physical attributes likeness an image it's not physical attributes a really good example egrave example here's a Colossians 1:15 Jesus is the image of the invisible God you can be an image of something that is invisible when Adam made Seth after his manner and likeness the father-to-son ratio were are the biblical writers quoting Adam making Seth not literally or physically but more poetically so what you have to do is you have to take Genesis 1 you take other Genesis text about being made in someone's image and come up with a thread that's common I think a good thread definition would be the embodied representation of another will you be attracted to women in the next life sexually sure I don't know probably not procreation is done the the the number of the elect is it has been gathered and the the mandate the creation mandate to be fruitful multiply has at that point been completed because Jesus has subdued all things under himself so it's Jesus still a man in the next life absolutely he has a permanent human nature God is genderless without gender is God genderless or without gender he literally created gender so he's prior to gender as people who will not have sexual attraction in the next life will we all be asexual in heaven that that's defined it's not sexually attracted to anything this reminds me of a CS Lewis quote where a child is told that sex on earth is one of the greatest pleasures there is and so he says oh you must eat chocolate while you're doing it the pleasures I have in the resurrection are way better than sex I don't want to go down this hill I'm a virgin on stage I'd rather not talk about that but and Jesus approves of a celibate single path to the kingdom of God so you're in luck well by the way my dating life is going on I'm happy about that as people who do follow and look to Jesus Christ even those who may not be latter-day saints is it sinful or wrong for them to believe that they will still be married in the next life and that their love will transcend this life it is totally wrong because it goes against the words of Jesus in Matthew 22 it goes against the words of Paul in 1st Corinthians 7 and it like Jesus says you don't know the power of God and you don't know the Scriptures and the point he's making is you have a low view of the power of God in the resurrection to transform human institutions and human experience to something that's so better it's like this it's like high school marriage would be like high school the resurrection it was great I thank God for it but I wouldn't want to go back I've got better things now okay well I'll yield my time few minutes the seconds left you're in luck because I misplaced my critical examination notes for this section so we're just gonna we're talking about sex in heaven this is gonna be weird regardless so I hope roll on board to talk about sex in heaven would you agree with latter-day saints who say that in the Telestial Kingdom it will be a kind of glory and there will be a joy there yes so where people will people be happy happy in a terrestrial Kingdom yes okay would you agree that Jesus would you agree that Jesus doesn't dwell there according to latter do you say teaching well the influence of Christ dwells will always as well in the terrestrial Kingdom according to latter-day Saint institutional approved correlated teaching this is not complicated we're happy in this life in Jesus isn't dwelling here so yes you can be happy without Jesus physically standing next to you as we all are often so he doesn't dwell his influence also does like this so he's not dwelling there in the fullest sense no where is he right now and we're still happy right but in the trash till kingdom Jesus is not going there in the full sense right right right and physically he's not there but his influence and power is okay so what makes you think if Christ if somebody goes there and they don't have they're not in the single house that Jesus talks about where the rooms are prepared and they're with the father and the son and his people why are we not call that hell it can be referred to as hell bringing me on referred to it as hell however we make a distinction from hell and outer darkness where it even eternally suffer but to be clear the bottom heavenly kingdom can also be referred to as a hell is that correct you can use whatever words you want describing me you'd think God's genderless or I mean really these are all arbitrary like abstract this is anyway you've described a heavenly kingdom as hellish and hell as a heavenly kingdom would you agree well in the sense that I believe hell when I refer to hell I refer to outer darkness if someone once referred to hell as not the celestial kingdom they can't do that it's changing the definition of the word but by that change of the definition yes they're right but by my definition they're wrong could you be happy in the highest sense forever with Jesus in the Saints if you're not married yes but you will not be exalted so you can be happy and saved in a receive salvation forever gonna be happy in the highest sense possible well you can't be happy in the highest sense because highest is at the top of a topless throne it's it's it's endless you there's no defining it out on a joy that you otherwise would have yes yes I believe yes if you not follow the path that God has laid out for you to be intertwined and together as Adam and Eve you are missing out on a blessing that God has given you why did Paul in 1st Corinthians 7 say that we should live now as though we won't be married later well if we're going to get in the subject of Paul and marriage in general I will take more of a liberal stance and thinking that Paul was often wrong about women especially saying when women shouldn't speak in church or things of that nature and I don't take my I take the words of Christ in the doctrine of covenants over the words of Paul's cultural influence in the New Testament I would not want to be a part of a religion that has to throw its apostles and prophets under the bus how does it make you feel to throw your own apostles and prophets under the bus how does it make you feel to think Anne Frank's in hell and all the Jews had it coming it's my question not yours I don't throw them under the bus and I revere them and I'm proud to be a latter-day saint always will be that sounds nice but you're saying that you don't agree with Paul's words is that correct apostles have been wrong Jonah was wrong what he wanted God to destroy Nineveh and got upset when God didn't yes they can be wrong it's totally funny so sometimes the wrong and what they say that is wrong gets into scripture yes literally there are mistakes in Scripture okay so like straightforward teachings about ethics life the nature of God you think those can be wrong written by apostles inserted into the Canon well Christians all agree that they don't they're not even sure if if the woman caught in adultery is supposed to be in the New Testament if it's real or not that's a whole ethic lesson that might be not true so yes there's evil so among the things that we that we can reconstruct of the earliest documents of the New Testament do you have any other qualms with what apostles and prophets have said you know we'd have to sit down to have a whole other conversation about that talk about topics and genres list it out do you ever wonder that you ever think that the LDS Church with respect to doctrine is like the BYU honor code office when it comes to policy nope really do you think that it was ethical for Joseph Smith and Brigham Young to have sexual relationships with other plural wives well God and with Sullivan and Abraham and other people has decreed sometimes that polygamy would happen God is the author of marriage and the creator of marriage is allowed to reform it and change it for a specific time if he wishes and if there is no God which I don't believe but there is no God marriage is just a social contract and can be between a man and a woman a man and a man two women and a man whatever you want it's a social contract so if God is in charge of marriage he can reform it as he wishes and if there is no God it doesn't really matter would you agree with Paul and first Timothy 3 and Titus first Timothy 3 and Titus 1 that the qualification of someone who is in leadership in a church is that they have to be a one-woman man during the time periods that God has declared that each it should only be monogamy yes given that Joseph Smith according to Brian C Hills likely had a sexual relationship with Fanny outter Salzer Algar Louisa b'man Emily partridge Eliza Partridge Lucy Walker O'Meara Johnson Silius sessions Maria Lawrence Sarah Lawrence Melissa lot and mary harron with different degrees of high moderate and low evidences would you agree that Joseph Smith failed the New Testament test of being a one-woman man no I would not agree that he failed the test do you think he's a great example of sexual ethics no no one's ever asked me about Joseph Smith and sexual ethics not come I'm not answering I think that's a ridiculous question you think he's a good rule to follow the Lord's commandment and in that regard he followed it and yes it's true but it's still better than lighting those women on fire Joseph lit zero women on fire yeah he married a couple I'd rather have sex with someone than be lit on fire I hate to break it to you guys not that big of a deal okay we've reached the end of the debate we will now have brief closing remarks of three minutes from each participant quake you will make his remarks first followed by Aaron well again thank you guys for coming this is probably one of the strangest ways to spend your Friday night we talked about witch trials and and sex in heaven and all sorts of strange things so obviously people's minds are not really changed by these things that much and usually they're just more affirmed and the position they were in before however these things are good and I'm thankful that you're and agreed to this and I'm thankful that other Aaron Aaron Marshall and Roscoe Christie were able to host this I want to end with quoting the Book of Mormon in I don't know why I didn't invest in staplers I think that would be a good thing for the next debater the Book of Mormon says because my word shall hiss forth many the Gentiles shall say a Bible a Bible we've got a Bible there cannot be any more Bible but thus saith the Lord God o fools they shall have a Bible and it shall proceed forth from the Jews my name's and covenant people and what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they received from them yay what did the Gentiles mean do they remember the travails and the labors and the pains of the Jews and their diligence unto me in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles oh ye Gentiles have ye remembered the Jews mine ancient covenant people nay but you've cursed them and have hated them it have not sought to recover them but behold I will return all these things upon your own heads for I the Lord have not forgotten my people thou fool that shall say a Bible we've got a Bible and we need no more Bible have you obtained a Bible save it work by the Jews and no he not that there are more nations than one what's so interesting about this beautiful and true record the Book of Mormons that equates to things hating Jews and believing that you only need the Bible and what religious tradition has mixed those two quite a bit the Protestant tradition what leaders in Europe piggybacked off of the evil and wicked teachings by the leaders of the Protestant reformers adult Hitler and Joseph Goebbels the harsh reality is that when you look at Protestant history you don't see the fruits of Christ you see the most bloodshed and murder perhaps in this continents history and the Book of Mormon calls it out so specifically and the reason why we see continuously that Protestant tradition always ends whether it's wit starts with Martin Luther and Calvin burning people or goes to slavery or the Klan or whatever it always ends in attacking God's ancient covenant people and more recently his new covenant people keep these things in mind you heard tonight that someone on this stage believes all the Jews are in Hell right now and that everyone who dies not a Christian was predestined to be that way and I'm here to tell you Jesus is enough to save you from all of those horrendous and sad beliefs my friends my latter-day saint neighbors who I love even if your whole world in Mormonism comes crashing down you can have Christ and you can have all of Christ and if you have all of Christ you have everything you need you can have Jesus who put away the sin of David without Joseph Smith who says that David lost his exaltation you can have Jesus who justifies the ungodly without Joseph Smith who says that God does not justify the ungodly you can have Jesus who would seal you up today to eternal life and exaltation and to a calling and election made shore without Joseph Smith who restricts the second anointing to his inner circle you can have Jesus who interprets his own parables without Joseph Smith who disregards jesus's own interpretation you can have Jesus who ensured the unstoppable growth of his kingdom without Joseph Smith who said a second growing season was required you can have Jesus who seals to himself every believer and brings them into the same father's house the same singular Kingdom the same pasture to be with him and his people forever without Joseph Smith who says that Jesus separates his people into different kingdoms you can have Jesus who calls you to a better forever family with a hundred mothers with the most profound most intimate social units possible even better than marriage without Joseph Smith who exploits your anxiety about preserving existing family relationships when you go down the rabbit hole as you should of LDS history and scripture and disillusionment and heartbreak please don't give up on Jesus Jesus says heaven and earth will pass away but my words will never pass away skip general conference this April gorge yourself on the words of Jesus spit out Joseph Smith from your mouth like poison Jesus says whoever believes in me as the scripture has says has said out of his heart will flow rivers of living water Jesus says the words that I've spoken to you are full of the spirit and of life Jesus says whoever hears my words and believes him who sent me has eternal life receive Jesus as your final and sufficient proxy with empty handed faith Jesus is enough Jesus is more than enough my cup overflows as the audience Q&A portion of the debate so if you have a question for the participants please line up over here I will hold on to the mic while you ask your question so don't try to wrestle it away from me chairs are if you don't have a question I'm gonna have to cut you off so this we need questions and not monologues each participant has agreed to try to limit their answer to about a minute minute half so that we can get through as many questions as possible because it looks like we have a lot all right so we're gonna go for about 30 minutes all right well the first question thank you okay hey I want to congratulate both of you I think you both did a fantastic job and quite good I'd like to start with you I guess I'll just say as a Protestant I kind of found myself as a fan without a team here tonight because it turned what was supposed to be Mormonism versus evangelical Christianity into Mormonism versus Calvinism and not all Protestants are Calvinists and so I would have wished that you would have gone out of something going after something that Aaron and I both hold - even though we could disagree on some fine points of theology but with that said are you familiar with the philosophical difference between predestination and causal determinism because I felt like as you were going after almost 10 minutes worth going after him do you think God predestined X Winery doesn't see that you are implying that God causally determined XY and Z sighs my clarification do you think that predestination ought to be conflated with causal determinism yes and I believe John Calvin believed the same thing I believe John Calvin believed the same thing also and I believe he is wrong and we can logically one question logically deductively prove that it's not to be conflated let's talk later I agree with the gentleman here fantastic debate tonight guys I think both of you coast I think I'm not gonna stay with what I think held it better together than the other one but my question is is for my good friend over here I'm curious as to what your thoughts are on CS Lewis comments regarding grace of works I'm not going to get the court exactly perfect gentleman brain here percent but when I paraphrase when he said I steam which of Grayson works is more important is like asking which blade on a pair of scissors is more needed what is your thoughts on that that works and faith are inseparable but distinct and we have to make sure we affirm the distinction because Paul says things like faith not by works or faith apart from works to who does not work but to him who trusts so we have to make a distinction and yet we can affirm the inseparable separable 'ti that is inevitable so that's why I give you the framework of works our evidence of truth faith but not a ground of merit for my subjective blessings and they're part of the purpose of my life but they're not a part of the prerequisite to the salvific blessings that I've described so my question is [Music] as I may see these IDs are income income to some but they are simple it is the first principle the gospel to know for a certainty that the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another because once a man like gonna say that God Himself the father of us all dwell on earth the same as Jesus Christ himself there and so romans 1 22 24 says professing themselves to be wise they became fools exchange the glory of the immortal God into an image made like to a mortal man and to beasts birds and creeping things wherefore God also give them over to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts to dishonour their bodies between themselves so my question is justice my teaching that the glory of God is why is he not a reprobate well I think it's a great quote from the New Testament and if you look at the culture they're living in the Romans are actually worshipping these gods that sounds just like what is being described you look at Zeus and and Aphrodite these people are getting drunk and having orgies and stealing from each other they're acting like mortal men however it's a very different gods and heavenly father the god of the restored gospel I think it's a beautiful thing that God was a man before he was God because if he was just the beginning of every single thing ever that means all good and bad started with him and he decreed it however if good and bad existed before God that only means he's organizing good to work against evil and he's not the father of evil the doctrine of the restored gospel helps to save Christianity from this ultimate conclusion that God would be the creator and cause it was 30 seconds this is son okay so Romans 1 says that we have idolaters have exchanged the truth about God for a lie and the truth about God according to Paul in Romans 1 is that he has invisible attributes his eternal power and divine nature so this isn't just cultural thing this is about the nature of God secondly quakers objections to Calvinism aren't too Calvinism there - classic theism ultimately all the problems that he has with Calvinism are true of any theistic worldview where there's creation ex nihilo and where God Himself is the primary cause of all things I want to preface with the knowledge that I'm a Evangelic Oh army and mystic Christian who loves both of you guys and everyone else in this room and I'm gonna go to the argument for the UM our family's eternal and your closing comments you said Jesus is enough to save you from all of this and so if your belief is that we are consistently progressing from your quote in our family's eternal you said what then are we doing in heaven if not progressing then should you spend an eternity without complacency in consideration that our desire to progress comes from a lost complacency my belief is that heaven will be a selfless alternative to glorify God but from my understanding your eternity is in complacency of worshipping God himself his thing got enough to be it's God is then God enough if you desire to be one I'm sorry I don't really know what the question is if it seems like the question did more helpful than more brief yeah yeah I get to sit down to the what's the bolts of what you're saying so is thank God enough because your closing comments said Jesus is enough to save you from all of this it's got enough if you desire to be one yes yes God is enough to save you from your sins and when I said all of this I meant save you from having to force yourself to believe such horrid things about the children of the world about sex traffic victims and people in 911 and God the true God of theirs or gospel is enough to save you from that satisfaction according to Christianity is having a relationship with the Tri personal being who is the source of everything good and true and beautiful nothing less is satisfying remember try to brief questions brief questions I love you all God loves you this is pure and simple God is light God is love and I judges you have a question oh and I just wanna make the comments man my heart love you all go pasta soup do you take give people better place now in Egypt sir yes these are the people who do you do you think religion replace the people I yes I essentially I believe that when the tribes were scattered this happened and there was a great apostasy but there were those who still had understanding and knowledge of God his ways revealed it and it became less of an ethnocentric tribe and more of a belief in a higher power yes so quick you from your argument about the apostasy it seemed to be based on anecdotal views of the church doing evil things it's my understanding that if a complete apostasy happens you would have to show that every believer no longer lives on the earth and that there's no one left that being said doctrine of the covenant seven one through three talks about John and John asked him to remain on earth my understanding is from that it says that John does remain on earth under the LDS view and has remained since how can you have a complete apostasy if John is still around so the actual definition of the great apostasy is defined as the priesthood being taken from the earth and result of the precip being taken from the earth nothing is truly done in God's name and eventually what will follow are wicked things being done in God's name without that authority so is there a complete apostasy yes by way of there not being a priesthood of God or authority of God on earth yes people still remember things that are true many the early church fathers did and they're great to look to however they did not have the priesthood Authority God ordained to his people so it's interesting that the conference we talked about about the great apostasy in the book that followed and a lot of modern latter-day Saint discussions about the great apostasy what they do is they shrivel an embarrassment from what latter-day Saint leaders have said about the great apostasy which has had a more robust and thick definition of what the apostasy is when latter-day Saint scholars have tried to do is minimize the category of what constitutes apostasy to just loss of priesthood Authority so on the strong definition you have the fundamental principles of the gospel or lost people without I quoted some of these quotes to him are people without hope in the world the kingdom of God is destroyed the church is destroyed and there's a moral corruption that just just floods the earth and there's no more Christians and the thin definition it says though well there was a sort of logistics problem in the first century the Apostles couldn't get together for a quorum UPS is better at logistics that God is and they couldn't pass on the priesthood okay thank you again both of you guys I think Aaron would agree with you quite quite GU that all those things you mentioned were horrible and evil to quote one of my favorite theologians just because you can't think of a reason for something to happen doesn't mean there isn't a reason if your view is correct and the biblical view that Aaron presented isn't correct why would all of those millions if it didn't glorify ultimately glorify God then all of those things happen for no reason isn't that much worse than if God ordained these for his glory just because we don't understand the reason doesn't mean it's not a reason so I sort of disagree with the assumption that it's either God ordained it or happened for no reason we know that Satan exists we know that he has his plan and those people who died in Auschwitz people in their minion genocide of people in slavery or the people who were the South Americans who were murdered by colonists all those things millions of people were talking millions those happen because of Satan's plan he did not win the ultimate victory that's important to know but no God did not predestined cause to happen or decree the burning of Jews or anything like that and I think any belief that any anyone who truly accepts that deep down I think there are a couple steps away from being an extremist elsewhere quake who has favored open theism without fully supporting it open theism is the view that God does not know the definite future so quake who is yet again throwing his apostles and prophets under the bus who have taught that God has for Nate for foreknowledge of human decisions and he that's what he uses to try to get around with a problem of evil it's not a biblical solution I never stated that during this debate at all just didn't have to get elsewhere okay reading off a crackphone bear would be guys can quick dude you shared several racist quotes for Martin Luther and John Calvin as an advantage a local in the room I think it's important to renounce their racism racist quotes and agree these men who did not speak on God's behalf in regards to race have a quote by LDS prophet Brigham Young this colored race have been subjected to severe curses which they have in their families and their classes in their various capacities brought upon themselves and until the curse is removed by him who placed it upon them he's speaking in regard to God they must suffer under this consequences under its consequences I am not authorized to remove it I am a firm believer in slavery Brigham Young was well documented for racism toward african-americans Jews and Indians my question is do you apply the same criticism to your church's profits and do they speak on God's behalf when they say they speak on race like this so that's a wonderful question I'm really thankful you asked it you look at Brigham Young statements on race and you find certain things that are contradictory we know by following the history that Brigham Young's belief on curse of Cain occurs ham doctrines were given to him by parley P Pratt when he served his mission in the southern states and actually picked it up from Southern Baptists so the Baptist picked it up before that from Catholics and we're not really sure where it came from right before that so the only time we were really racist as we were trying to be like Protestants you look at the the Baptist in the southern states yes so you look at how the actual gospel plays out Joseph Smith didn't believe those things in Brigham Young had beliefs that were left over from the great apostasy however Joseph Smith came out and said Moroni appeared to me and told me that the Negroes are cursed and evil I probably wouldn't be a Mormon but Brigham Young is not the foundational or dispensational prophet of the church nor did he ever have anyone murdered and I think it's almost offensive to equate who just merely racist statements to the advocate of murdering thousands of people the ad vacations of genocide and cultural racism are so far apart and I think it actually shows ignorance to even try to equate them I would not want to be a part of a religion that has to throw its prophets and apostles under the bus Brigham Young as a prophet of God will say he's not in the bus and I'll see him I'll literally be in heaven with him either please no these men are honored as prophets and apostles sustain as prophets and apostles and they taught above all things that they are embarrassed about I am embarrassed about zero things in the Bible zero statements of Paul and I am so happy to throw any Protestant reformer under the bus where he contradicts biblical doctrine or ethics it's not respond to anything hello thank you so much so I'm asking a question that I don't think has been asked before but when did the apostasy happen like what marked it and so I would present that one view and I'm curious your thoughts because it seems to me that the reform errs have sort of a similar problem because where did at what point was it necessary for a Reformation to happen because I've interacted with Protestant maybe like half Protestant it's called Catholics north not Christians and then the other half you know so it's like at what point for both of you so we don't have a specific date of as and when the priest of authority was taken but we see in the New Testament that the sewing's of the apostasy are taking place and my answer is that it eventually was a total apostasy and God saw fit to revoke the priesthood authority from the earth that's really the only answer I can give I believe that no matter what you have to believe in some sort of change whether you believe in a Reformation that sort of just changed it a little bit to make it okay or a complete restoration I believe it's some point you have to make a change I believe outside of those two maybe Greek Orthodox or might have a certain answer that is permissible but that's a different debate what are these States make a completely fine distinction between the Reformation and restoration restoration implies that the church was obliterated the kingdom of God was obliterated from the earth the Reformation says hey what Jesus said about the kingdom growth was true and therefore let's bring health to the church by applying the Word of God and mean affectionate and nurturing and washing with the water of the word the Bride of Christ ask your best question okay go to Aaron so you believe in the predestination and yeah on your closing comments and at the beginning of it it was kind of the way I was understanding it was well in once there he was asking me to you know to to go to Jesus if I'm predestined not to have Jesus and how can I have Jesus it's like saying if God designs and predestined doctors to be the instrument of my healing then why would I want to go to a doctor so for a Protestant Christian who believes in predestination that God predestined the means to an end is motivation to embrace the means to the end so it's not oh no I don't want to do it it's like I want to do it for example God has predestined the preaching of the word to gather people to himself and save them therefore I will preach the word boldly and gladly so Anne Frank was baptized by the LDS Church despite global outcry from the Jewish community however due to the fact that she was not married and thus would be in a lower degree of glory would it be fair to describe her eternity as hellish no so we've done baptism for all of God's children regardless of religion or nationality or race we believe that that is the thing God said you have to have the opposite if you don't get the baptism or you don't accept Christ you're suffering forever or to quote doctrine Covenants section 137 all those who died without a knowledge of the gospel who would have received it will be heirs of the celestial kingdom so no and Frank will not just go to hell or well not be in the celestial kingdom all those who died who would have received it will be heirs of that kingdom hi pleasure to meet both of you and I think you're very sharp I've had a chance to meet with you which is awesome and Spencer as well I've had a pleasure here you present as well and your manner than I am to say on the stage I have a question to quake you so you talk about families are forever so what does that mean as families are forever does that include children and if so then does that mean that if a child does not achieve the same degree of glory as their parents are they actually not forever because families forever seems to indicate that they are actually together in that Kingdom because just like you say like that Jesus cannot is not in this eleum presence of the celestial kingdom then it seems like that same thing would apply to the parents to their children their children to their parents however that may fall right so elder Bednar clarify a couple years ago that the way we often look at heaven or from our families our little tents or suburban houses in cul-de-sacs with a nuclear family that's not the doctrine laid out in the church the doctrine is to seal everyone together and eternal family is the children of God all human beings are together United as one that's what families are forever means it doesn't mean that you get like a couple acres in the garage and like a cower outside it's it's a lot bigger than that but because of our culture in the way we view families we kind of take a presupposition and implement it but we should do that we should think bigger injustice mint sealed people are for example propositioned a young lady to enter into plural marriage with her he would promise her sealing her up to exultation so he had a kind of more Calvinist view sorta to ceiling at the time and as atleta recent history grew you kind of extracted out from that into the second to nineteen which I want you to google and there's a kind of there's another google you got the divine tentacles quote by latter-day saint the divine tentacles quote so James E Faust in General Conference to refute the common elias cultural understanding of the tentacles quote he argues that latter-day saint children if they're to actually be sealed in the you know effective way relationally together with family their exultation quoting him must be fully earned thirty second reply there's been a lot of talk about temple ceremonies and things of that nature tonight and I just want to be clear most of the comments and sage who are a bastardization of them and you can go find hearsay online from weird strange blogs rust by fundamentalists and nut jobs but or you can just read the scriptures and have faith in Christ so just beware when you google things you find things that aren't true and you find things that are true like John Calvin burned a lot of people at the stake go to the church's website in search for second anointing go to the church go to the book this is my doctrine which was published and then sold in gospel in a Deseret book and look up the section on a second anointing this is in your old literature my latter-day saints scholars I'm not making this up hey hey all right we've got we got thirteen questions eight minutes we got to roll through them all right quick you in the sense so you spoke about how much were six million Jews being burned was yeah apart from like individual sin and I completely understand the external quinces and things of that nature in the sense of salvation is there a sin that is worse than another that keeps us from salvation if not is there a sin that keeps us from exaltation from your view right so I think the Scriptures don't really lay out this hierarchy of sin we know that denying the Holy Ghost is the worst sin and I believe to kill six million Jews you have to deny the Holy Ghost and after that describes murder after that it's sort of unclear but I think if you're trying to create a hierarchy up okay what exactly keeps you away from such-and-such well all of the Apostles and the Scriptures make clear that God's the ultimate judge understands all of our contexts all of our trials every single thing that shapes you he understands it and will judge you accordingly and fairly so it's not just one sort of sweep over all people each decision in regard to your salvation exaltation is taken in consideration of your life in your personal faith in Acts chapter three things Peter is preaching to group people he says you killed the author of life they're being charged with murder and then he preaches to them forgiveness and Joseph Smith can't handle that so he makes a distinction that their sins were blotted out but they weren't forgiven it's a weird distinction David according to justice myth not an exultation from his murder permanently disqualifies him from celestial exaltation but according to the New Testament murders can be forgiven yes murderers can be forgiven and many people in the early Latter day Saint movement actually had to kill people during the fight this is the thing that happened forgiveness is not a part of a part away from the Latter day Saint faith however we're not going to go on record and say oh you know what you can be forgiven for just killing as many people as you want just say Jesus is my Savior on your deathbed that's a bastardization of grace and unfortunately it created a culture of American Christianity that has led to thousands of people becoming lukewarm and going into the atheistic movement and murder a thousand people I'll be happy to come here me too but I'd rather you not murder a thousand people we got we got five minutes so when kids are young they're taught this is acceptable in this is frowned upon like saying hey I like your sweater is nice and saying I want to punch you in the face is frowned upon right so um people are considered nice when they say the things that are smiled upon and keep the things that are found upon on the inside and would you say every person does that yes so um would you say that a person deserves to go to heaven and be with God because they are nice on the outside well obviously we believe that people go to spirit world after they're dead and those who didn't have the gospel have an opportunity to learn it the ulterior is or alternative rather is that she was a little girl she didn't do anything that bad she didn't know Jesus she may have punched her brother once she may have stolen a piece of candy but God predestined her to fail and be sent to hell to burn forever right after the camps to me I take a step back and I go if you truly believe that deep down because I don't believe most people believe it I believe if you actually believe that you're probably a unit you need therapy if you truly believe that but people don't they don't live their lives that way and so I believe Anne Frank is in heaven I believe we'll see her again and I'm happy for this knowledge of the restored gospel I think the reason the real reason why Quaker doesn't think Anne Frank deserved to go to hell is that quake who doesn't believe that he deserves to go to hell so I think I'm probably the only Mormon that's been up here so Aaron I'm see about next to you so the after the numerous racist statements by Paul throughout the New Testament you said that you don't racist statement by the Apostle Paul yeah Testament yeah oh let me read you one then we got okay you know it take less than that one of the cretins a prophet of their own said cretins are always liars evil beasts lazy gluttons this testimony is true Southern Baptist pastors in the Bible Belt are a beast on average they weigh too much oh wait you're you're you're equating let's with Southern Baptist preachers it's not generalize sin problems of people when you're not rooting it in their ethnicity an immutable trait thank you I respond racism is pointing to someone's skin color and then saying they have moral failings because of that it's it's a categorization it's a premature judgment you cannot be a racist and make general cultural assessments of a people and their sin problems just like quake you did a Protestants I don't believe any of you were gonna burn in hell forever and I don't believe God predestined you to burn in hell forever I think that it's ironic that we see someone saying well it's okay to generalize some people it's okay to believe an Franks in hell it's okay to believe that all the Jews were purposely put in the ovens by God it's okay to believe those things you're a hop skip in a way from being an extremist and being on the FBI watch list I guarantee you you can't live in a normal society and think that you you absolutely can't it is detrimental and mentally destructive that God is the same yesterday today and forever quoting the Bible and if God is the same yesterday today and forever while I was yesterday got a man today's learning I'd say same thing about Jesus Jesus at one point wasn't a physical person by Protestant interpretation is that God changing obviously yesterday today and forever there's a there it it's true because it's talking about the authority and the love and the power of God but it's obviously a poeta sysm there are obviously changes in the Bible even many pastors whom Aaron respects have stated that the Trinity wasn't even revealed until a certain part of the New Testament well is that God changing no we have we have to show charity and be honest here and not go after the easy quips in Moroni 8:18 it says that God is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity and in the King Paul discourse Joseph Smith says we have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity I will refute that idea and take away the veil so that you may see the Book of Mormon taught a strict monotheism Joseph Smith later abandoned it more on eight is talking about God's moral character with respect to his dealings with children we can't even assume that about the Mormon God in his past mortal probation because Latter day Saints say they're not even sure if he was a horrific sinner before he was exalted unto God okay I'm gonna respond to that there's there's two things the first one is the word eternity is a purposefully created word that you can't define eternity is defined as never ending and never ending is defined as going without end it's a circular it's purposefully circular to say God if God can all eternity is true as far as the Bible has revealed eternity the creation of the world to heaven afterward however any other sort of subjective vague interpretation of eternity what Joseph Smith is referring to yes that is not true however you can't take two words and just assume they mean the exact same things in the ancient world and then in the 19th century in 2nd Joseph Smith stated that the father was a savior on a planet just like Christ and was sinless so this whole thing that oh well God sin before in the life before is just nonsense it's not consistent with latter-day saint history and it's dishonest to claim that we believe that and it's dishonest to claim that Joseph Smith stated that totally historically ABB's provably false and naming website after that is also kind of ridiculous thank you is extrapolating something from the King Follett discourse regarding John 5:19 Rodney Turner BYU professor shows that this interpretation of that is not the dominant not the clear not the absolute only interpretation about whether these Saints I have a project called God never sinned calm and I showed that two-thirds of the Latter day Saints that I speak to on a general basis believe Heavenly Father may have been a sinful mortal before he was exalted as a god okay this will be the last question okay so at the beginning of the book of Mormon there's an invitation to read it and have a sort of an experience to pray about it and see if God leads you to this truth let's say that I've already had an experience with God before the Book of Mormon enough that I've had experience that God has led me to be a pastor and let's say my Muslim friend has had an experience where his but he has been led to be an imam what makes whose experience true that's mine that's my question whose experience is true right well okay the truth we believe that although not all religions have authority and that law not all religions are ultimately true God can work with people in different lines that's the same way that we know historically the wise man who went to Christ as his birth were almost definitely Zoroastrian 'us God can work with people in different religions it doesn't mean he affirms everything that religion teaches but it be only worked with evangelical Christians the only good part of the world would probably be the southern states and honestly it's not true go to Mississippi they've got a lot to work on the reality is God can work with many different people all over the world and he can even use people like Dietrich Bonhoeffer who help save Jews who his theology I disagree with he was inspired by God and so that's my answer God can work with a lot of different people because God is actually all-powerful of your feelings can lie to you and so God wants you to use your brain and have an epistemic system of checks and balances that prioritizes the Word of God which is uses your reason your emotions your intellect your intuitions look at it all together and submit it under the Lord Jesus Christ well to talk about a sort of a station of emotions only one of us on stage has been yelling at you tonight [Music] [Music]

Channel: kwaku

Views: 170,080

Keywords: lds, mormon, latter-day saint, church of jesus christ, come unto christ, joseph smith, 3 mormons, kwaku, saints unscripted, gospel, james white, jeff durbin, apologia studios, mormon vs christian, pastor vs mormons, what mormons don't want you to know, lds missionaries, mormonism exposed, lds temple, zelph on the shelf, mr atheist, are mormons christians, epic black guy two mormon missionaries, aaron shafavolof, kwaku debate, kwaku mormon debate, kwaku vs aaron

Id: Vd9rQ7AZ_xg

Length: 142min 7sec (8527 seconds)

Published: Fri Mar 20 2020