An Evangelical-Mormon Conversation

now give another round of applause now Jeff and I asked them to bring up the house lights just so that you can see how many people are here the main floor here can contain nineteen hundred people from what I understand and can't quite see with all the lights that the balcony is probably three-quarters holds you so I wouldn't be surprised we have two thousand people twenty five hundred for this event so that's quite a tribute to the interest in this kind of thing here and my partner Carol hona says you're getting some video goes for a news story she said - how many are evangelical how many are LDS how many are other and we didn't really know so we thought we'd do this how many just it's not really a contest but just out of curiosity clap just clap your clap your hands if you would consider yourself evangelical okay okay okay all right clap your hands if you are LDS okay clap your hands if you are neither of those two okay there were two other folks I don't know exactly what but we're glad that you're here also so great great job now this isn't the first time an event kind of like this has been held five years ago there was a similar event which you folks organized again caused a conversation and was held at the Colonial Theatre not quite as many people but it was a doctor a reverend Greg Johnson and dr. Robert Millett had a similar friendly conversation where they discussed similarities and differences and everyone really learned a lot from that was a wonderful experience and so five years later we're doing a similar thing here we've got two friends who will be discussing their similarities and their differences great you know a few years ago I had the opportunity to visit Great Britain anybody been there yeah few of you you probably remember how passionate they are about football huh and it was good because I'm passionate about football too and two minutes into the conversation about football two things became clear the first one was this we were using similar terms but we had very different meanings for the terms we were using and then the other thing that became clear to me was that they were wrong and I was right no just kidding I think sometimes as evangelicals and for those of you who are L of the LDS faith I think sometimes we talk past each other because we don't slow down long enough to really define terms so tonight is really about defining terms it's about asking each other not asking ourselves but asking each other what we mean what do we mean when we use the term God or Jesus or the gospel or grace tonight we're going to have a friendly fearless conversation and we're going to ask each other these questions we're also going to do one other thing this is our other goal we want to model the civil discourse that is so absent in our our culture right now would you agree with that yes [Applause] and so we've asked two people who struck up a friendship a recent friendship to come and just have that conversation right in front of us we're going to eavesdrop and then we're going to model for the world what that's supposed to look like amen all right man and in the spirit of that I'm going to introduce our first conversationalist that's what I call him his name is dr. Brad Wilcox he is a professor in the department of ancient scripture at Brigham Young University where he also enjoys working with such programs as especially for youth Women's Conference and Campus Education Week he is the author of a couple of books one of them he gifted to me tonight which I was grateful for and that is the continuous atonement and the BYU devotional His grace is sufficient brad grew up in Provo Utah except for childhood years spent in Ethiopia Africa he served as a mission he served on a mission for the Latter day Saints in Chile and then later returned to that country to preside over the Chile Santiago East mission from 2003 to 2006 Brad earned his bachelor's degree from BYU in 1985 and he holds a PhD from the University of Wyoming he and his wife Debbie have four children and six grandchildren reading writing teaching and traveling are some of his passions in life he told me to tell you that he loves peanut M&Ms and pepperoni pizza he also wanted you to know that he thought those foods sounded kind of fatty so he also is learning to love salads you joined the club my man we are so grateful for his willingness to participate in this discourse tonight would you give dr. Wilcox my hand [Applause] thank you and I will introduce dr. Steven crane Steve crane spent his childhood living at the base of the Little Cottonwood Canyon in the Wasatch Range of Salt Lake City where his father planted several evangelical congregations Steve himself answered God's call by serving in various ministries and pursuing biblical training eventually attaining a Bachelor of Arts in preaching a Master of Arts in practical ministry Master of Divinity from Lincoln Christian seminary and doctorate of ministry from Gordon Cornwell Theological Seminary Steve planted eagle Christian Church in 1995 as an independent Bible believing concrete congregation where he still serves the senior minister ECC is now a congregation of over 3,000 believers who seek to unite Christians under the authority of Jesus Christ and pattern our lives after the Word of God ECC has planted seven churches in the Boise area and also extended its own congregation to a second satellite location Eagle Christian Church at surprise Valley in addition to his ministry at ECC Steve as a professor at Boise Bible College where he has served since 1990 Steve's books and articles include basics of Islam a Christians guide to understanding Islam email messages a minister answers questions from his congregation and marveling with mark an expositional commentary on the third gospel Steven Sally were married in 1987 and have four children heaves other interests include mountain biking and playing basketball Steve [Applause] so gentlemen take it away okay well it's great to be here thanks for coming I think they've got a table and stuff here behind I hope you didn't come to see us juggle like a jungle I really hope you didn't come to here sing but I'll yeah I don't think we can start tonight without thanking all those young people who perform for us they've just done a wonderful job Steve and I were backstage watching them and it was just amazing to see the enthusiasm that they had as they performed and and they just really lit up the whole auditorium so thank you to all those young people what we are going to do now is we're gonna have a dialogue and we've kind of invited you along to be part of that now I want to know that what we are going to do tonight is not rehearsed and you might go away and say yeah it was not rehearsed but our purpose our purpose is to promote dialogue healthy discussion between the evangelical and the LDS community are our purpose is to model proper godly conversations and really my purpose I even brought a blank notepad here my purpose is to learn not what I think Brad believes I want to find out what Brad actually believes and so I think it's important you know sometimes we search on the internet to find out about each other and anybody can put anything on the internet sometimes our young people I am I talking to love I've got a big old teacher voice so maybe that's the problem but our young people believe anything that's just in front of them on a screen and I think we've got to encourage them and all of us to go right to the source where there's agreement we're going to point out agreement but we're not going to shy away from the differences either we're not going to gloss over those we're not going to we're not got to argue we're not going to debate we're certainly not going to ridicule each other we've got a start of a great and I hope lasting friendship and so we want to build on that but we want to just kind of talk with each other we're not going to bring up strange obscure things that somebody might have said one time somewhere we're not even here really to say this might seem strange to you hey I'm right and you're wrong what I want to do is I want to have a good dialogue and find out and even learn what our perspective face teach now I can't speak for every evangelical but I am firmly within the evangelical community and I don't think Brad can speak for every latter-day Saint so it certainly has good standing with the Latter day Saints and so we're going to a dialogue and say just honest open discussion we are both on a journey for what's right your your community is very unique because there's a strong evangelical community here and a strong LDS community in many places latter-day saints are a minority and so they always feel on the defensive in many places evangelicals are a minority and they see along the defensive so I think it's wonderful for all of you to have come tonight so that we can just share together and this has been our goal we've already heard tonight that part of our problem is sometimes when we talk we talk past each other or worse we don't talk at all and we often use words and when we use those words they mean something a little bit different so I've got a couple quotes you're going to see them on the screen here just from a couple of people from the LDS community one a friend Bob Millett and I've done a but done dialogues with with Bob but here's what bob says we use the same or similar words as our Christian neighbors to describe a concept discover upon more serious investigation that what we mean is at least slightly different so often people of different religious persuasions simply talk past one another when they converse on matters religious they may even use the same words but they bring a different mindset an entirely different perspective to the encounter and I think that's so true or here's another quote from another LDS Steven Robinson in his book how wide the divide he says this latter-day saints and evangelicals employed the same theological terms but we usually define them differently and this quite often makes communication more difficult than if we spoke different religious languages entirely the similarities of terms makes us think we are communicating but when it's all said and done both sides go away with a feeling that nothing quite added and that's why I think what these men have pointed out is what keeps us from talking to each other all we'll talk about the weather will talk about the schools will talk about heck we even like to talk about politics with each other but we don't talk about the things that matter most to us and I think that's why an evening like this is important because just the fact that everyone in this room values organized religion puts us in one way on the very same team we're in a world and in a country where organized religion is getting bashed we live in a time where everyone is bashing the whole idea of the need for organized religion everyone is choosing spirituality versus or over organized religion and so the very fact that we have a commitment to that is something that we have in common because we realize that organized religion does have a place in our society and that it does have a place in our lives and that we're better for it so yes we're going to talk about differences but I think right off the bat we need to mention that in that regard we share very similar commitments and that's why I want to encourage discussion because my faith means everything to me my feelings about God are at the core of who I am and so if we always skirt that because of these differences in terms then we're never talking about what matters most to us and that will always keep our friendship on a surface level you talk about organized religion I'm part of nondenominational church and so we're very unorganized no I I have had the benefit of growing up in Idaho where we've got a strong moral culture and part of that is because of the LDS community until we reap the benefits of that but as we have a conversation I just kind of to kind of illustrate this I can ask just a series of really simple yes-or-no questions and I could say do you believe in God yes Jesus Christ yep heaven yeah hell yes salvation yeah we're the same right and so we can ask those questions but except except he likes mountain biking and I like peanut M&Ms I love peanut M&Ms but the truth matter is there there are some differences when it comes to those things and so we can have a conversation if we just leave it right there we go away and say well what is all this I thought I thought people said we're different we really are the same but really there are some things about those words God Jesus Heaven Hell Salvation exaltation those things that we were a little bit different so let's talk about again and so obviously look believe in God yeah and so when I say God and when you say God it may not be that we are actually referring to exactly the same thing see for us God and Jesus are separate beings and we believe that God is literally related to us that he is the father of our spirits many Christians talk about God being the father because he's the creator the creator of the world the creator of us but latter-day saints speak about God in a very personal way because we believe that he is literally our Heavenly Father and so he's had a premortal existence without what we believe a spiritual existence were in in heaven even before this world began there were God having spiritual Draenei and so literally the father of your spirit in heaven so when we sing the song I am a child of God that's something that's very literal to us it's not figurative it's not poetic it's a literal connection now how is that different from the way you view God well we are because you say having a father we would absolutely say Heavenly Father but we do believe Father Son Holy Spirit we believe in the Trinity which is not a bit the word but I believe it's a biblical concept the tri-unity of God now we're talking 1 God Deuteronomy here o Israel the Lord your God the Lord is one so we believe in one God who really manifests himself to us in different ways through father through son through Holy Spirit I'm not talking about modalism no but I can be I can be Brad the fall or I can be Brad the teacher so you're saying there's different sides God certainly relates to us in different ways and so we think of not three separate gods we think of one God who manifests himself to us in three ways and by these beings of three gods who are one in purpose and so that is a difference between us but it's interesting that both of us feel a strong connection with that God a young man said to me the other day I don't believe in Joseph Smith anymore but I still believe in God and Jesus and I said this is a young man who was a latter-day saint and I said the very fact that you just separated God and Jesus is because of Joseph Smith Joseph Smith is the one who taught us that God and Jesus are separate beings with perfected tangible physical bodies and I said the very fact that you didn't just say I believe in I don't believe in Joseph Smith anymore but I believe in God or I believe in Jesus the very fact that you just said I believe in God and Jesus shows me that Joseph Smith has helped you frame your perception of the Godhead because he was referring to them it's very different now we would still use that same phrase to Godhead and again we think they very distinctive roles that are being played out to God Father God the Son God God the Holy Spirit but again 1:1 in essence not just one in purpose but our difference does even go beyond that because we believe it if I asked you believe God is eternal you'd say yes you believe that eternal because everything is eternal right in terms LDS I think teaches that even if the the souls of men are eternal yes and so so when we were created on this earth it wasn't our beginning it was our physical beginning but that he existed before there was a pre existence where we existed as spirit children uh-huh and and really developed capabilities and talents they're pretty much the same way we do here yes then somehow I missed some of the dancing talents at these SS or the gentlemen they were stretching their bodies in ways hurt me which really is different for a minute that's even hard to think about but that is a different different viewpoint than an evangelical the evangelical reads the book of Job for example and and reads words like you created me in my mother's womb and we take that to be the beginning of our existence and so we don't talk about a pre existence somewhere else before here but even when it comes to God if I ask the question God's eternal yes because everything is eternal everyone's eternal but if I ask you the question is God has God been eternally God I would say we believe our first article of faith we believe in God the eternal father and in his son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost we believe that God will always be our Father we believe that that relationship will always be but we don't all we don't believe that God has always existed as he does now there is a phrase I think everybody knows that the look Lorenzo's snow couplet as man is god once was as my sin right as God is man may become yeah but those that's that's doctrine that we don't know a lot about we don't know a lot about that but it does give us a bigger picture and I think that's the interesting thing about the doctrine is not all then did God live on an earth somewhere did he go through what we went through we don't know a lot about that but we do know that there's a bigger picture and I always am content that I may not have the whole picture but I've got a little bigger picture and that bigger picture fills me with a sense of mission it tells me with a sense of purpose that I think I would have a hard time grasping without that bigger picture so for me that's very meaningful to know that there's more to come than just returning to the presence of God but that I am actually striving to become more like Jesus more like God we certainly feel like we want to become more godly we want to become more like Jesus but as an evangelical we never think that second part of phrase that we could ever be come God well and Mormons would tell you that there's no way that we will ever be equal to God or equal to Jesus because they will always be God will always be my father Jesus will always be my Savior they will always be the focus of my worship and my adoration but I do have potential to develop and to become more like them and that there is something bigger waiting for me than just finishing this life and so it's got still progressing in glory in joy but not in knowledge we believe he's he's a myth he's on the potent he's he's all-knowing and so he's not progressing in that he is getting better at this he's not practicing but he is progressing as he sees us progress much like I find such a joy and fulfillment in the progress of my children your daughters getting married this summer you were telling angel I seven and believe me that's joy you'll feel it the day that you will feel such a contentment and I can't help but feel like that's how God feels as he sees us developing and growing he's not threatened by that but rather he's overjoyed at the progress it's really hard for me to kind of grasp this because in a sense my immediate reaction is I've kind of God that's way bigger than that here's what I mean by that that I believe in the God who has always existed in fact I go back to the book of Genesis the book of Exodus even where God reveals his name he says I am the I am and 7000 times in the Old Testament we we find this word Yahweh the unpronounceable name of God and it really it's even hard to translate because not only does it mean I am that I am that I am that I always have been and we believe that God has eternally existed as God and can you imagine that that he is omnipotent yea is omnipresent he is omniscient he's all-knowing and he's always been that way so that for us to think when we talk about God both those phrases that God became God or I've even heard phrases that say well how can we say that God has been from all eternity well there was a God before him and a God before him yeah but again that's stuff that we don't know a lot about it it can get overwhelming but I'm content to have a little bigger picture that helps me understand more about my current purpose so we don't know all the ins and outs we don't know when it actually started or you know we don't know all of that but I do know that there's a bigger picture and that's meaningful to me just as you find great comfort in knowing that God has always existed as God I think find great comfort in knowing that God is helping me to progress without that bigger picture I begin to wonder why would he create us in the first place what are we just his little experiments is he just this all-powerful God who says okay well you know let me see y'all I'll create this one up the nose was too big on that one look I know it makes me wonder what's the motive for a creation in the first place if there isn't a bigger plan a bigger picture we would answer that question the fact that there is this that God is loving but not only that this relationship in the Trinity God the Father God the Son God the Holy Spirit this this relationship that God created us all so that same capacity so he could have a relationship with us and so and so we would take that one step further and say not only did he create us to have that relationship that he created us literally in that relationship that we're part of that relationship Joseph Smith said that to have true faith it doesn't just mean that you believe in a higher power ninety-five percent of the people on this earth believe in a higher power but Joseph Smith said you have to know it God's attributes you have to know his plan for us you have to know his relationship to us because then God is more than just a higher power that suddenly God becomes a very personal being and that motivates us to make choices that others perhaps wouldn't make so God literally is the father of our spirits in heaven yes and then in terms of Jesus Christ on earth I think there's a saying even that God is literally his father on earth yeah we believe that with all of our hearts that Jesus is divine and that that God is the literal father of Jesus Christ both spiritually and fit and physically and so on earth that God as a physical father of the G M not in some metaphysical said no and so then then the question becomes Oh what so you're saying God had sex with Mary well you just said God is a big God and I wouldn't limit him to that I wouldn't limit him to that but I do believe that he is the physical father and so when we say that Jesus is divine that he is literally the Son of God then that's a very literal thing for us that's not a symbol that's a very literal fit in my mind as I'm think obvious I do have this honest thought that okay if if BH Roberts I think says there's an endless line of deities stretching back into the eternities God before God my honest answer is well so there was God before that not that we had to do there was a God before that a God before that my my response is well I want to know who the first one is because that's the one that I want to worship yeah and I would say that no matter who the first one was God will always be our Father and so it's just like it's just like your family history here I mean you may know who your grandfather is in your great-grandfather but you don't know your great-great-great great-great-great great-great great-great-grandfather and so I've got a genealogy where we kind of work that you're trying to work that out okay well I got a website that will help you yeah but but I may not know yet those connections but what matters to me is that I have a very real connection with God I think you've seen many spiritual people who don't have enough of a definition in their minds evangelicals do but some people they're very spiritual but God is everything from a force in the universe Star Wars fans to an electricity and and that's where I have a hard time you say well I want to worship the first God and I say I want to worship a God that is more connected to me than a force in the universe I need someone who loves me and cares about me just as I love and care about my children and I need somebody who is so devoted to me and my progress and my potential I believe God watches me just like I watched these teenagers just cheering for them wanting them to come out and succeed as they perform them saying and I think God is doing the same thing for me because he's helping me reach my potential and that potential is you know we don't know all the ins and outs and we don't know how many aeons or eternities that we'll take but it does let me know that there's something more in store for me than the cartoon of an angel sitting on a cloud strumming a heart there's got to be more than that yeah we certainly believe that is he then child we'll see there's way more than that but we do have a problem wrestling with this because we read the Bible especially Old Testament and there there are no other gods before me nor will there be any after me and we take that very literal and we do too but we would say there are no other gods before me here you for you you I will always be his son who will always be my father and so there are no other gods people say oh then are mormons polytheistic no because we acknowledge more than one god but we worship only our four in the name of Jesus Christ as you're having dialog so again I'm just saying we need to go deeper than the surface do you believe in God we need have discussions like that and find out that we really do mean something different by those germs but it's interesting I'm sorry I keep doing this it's just because that thing keeps slipping off my ear but it's interesting because your perspective of God motivates choices in your life and my perspective of God motivates choices and I think that's what's missing that's the common ground that we can come to and I can say Steve I admire you and I admire family I admire the sacrifices you're making and the choices you're making because your belief in God means something more to you than just an aside it's core and that's where I can say we may not see exactly the same perspective of God but please don't say you believe in a different God at different Jesus we may see him differently but it's the same Jesus I'm seeing him through what I consider to be a bigger window your frame is the Bible my frame is much larger but we see the same God and we see the same Jesus but we're seeing him from a little different angle as much larger you're talking about in terms of Scripture yeah and we're going to talk about that in a moment yeah but I just you know people will say oh you believe in a different Jesus and I say no no no we believe in the same Jesus we've been saved by the same Jesus let's talk about Jesus for a second because that is a point that again I would struggle with but like here in Mormonism that your your Jesus is man could be seen sorry about the headset guys but your Jesus is man who became God and as I read especially in Philippians my Jesus is God who became man and so is ours because Jesus Christ was born as a spirit child of God at the same time that I was born as a spirit child of God and so he didn't grow from on another planet and become God he was a born a spirit child of God and progressed to the point that he became God and so he was God he was a in the Godhead and then became man how does that work because in order to progress to godhood isn't there a process of you know earthly probation where he had to come and live here and he needed to have a body but he got that body when he came here to this earth he didn't go to another earth before this he came to this earth and that's a beautiful doctrine because that means that he came to be like me so that I could choose to become like him but the process started when he became a man and then earned his right no he was a God long before he doesn't work it he didn't ever body before well he wasn't he wasn't a heavenly father he wasn't a father in heaven but he was a God he was a full God he was he was in the Godhead as as a spirit without a body yes and then he came to earth or everyone else out in fact that's why we would say that Jesus had to come and suffer for us my evangelical friends say well if I would say that God came to suffer for me but I would say from an LDS perspective God couldn't come and die for me because he already has an immortal perfected body and that's why Jesus as a spirit had to come take a body so that he could by evangelical of you know believes look in Chapter two who being in the very form of God did not consider equality God of the thing he grasped the word there literally means clung to but let himself go and we believe he came and took a physical body here okay but I'm still trying to wrap my mind around this because in the in the process of progression maybe we need to talk about the fall and bodies I was under the understanding that you come to earth you get your physic body and then you go through a probationary time on earth here where you can start the process process of exaltation and you too can become like yo I would say that started much earlier it started much much earlier that we've been progressing for a long time some of these young people came with talent I look at my own children and I see that they came with natural ability in that premortal existence and the phrase we developed talents there and capability to they're pretty much the same way we have here and that that's part of our progress we've been continually progressing the progress didn't start on this earth that this understand that we will understand that but in order for Brad to go and become like God it not only started for you in a probationary time in in spirit heaven you were born here on earth to earthly parents where you develop talents and capabilities here and you start your progression will not start you continue your progression towards godhood but that physical probation time here on earth what is requirement for you to go and to become like God you know just like your schooling was a requirement for you to make progress toward your goal so my question is okay how did Jesus do it then without the the physical body here to become part of the godhood to be able to return and my question yeah and it's a good question because then for us the question would be what about the Holy Spirit that for us is a different person egde but he has out of body yet but he's in the god head and so it's very possible for these people to these spirits to progress to that level and then they can obtain a body as they go along but they are they are already at it they're already at a level of godliness without that body but they will obtain that body we believe that one day then the Holy Ghost will obtain a body so God the Father has a body of flesh and bone yes and Jesus Christ has a body of flesh and bone that he was resurrected and the Holy Ghost does not does not I'm also confused difference between holy ghost and holy spirits for us I don't know that we make a big difference between that as much as many evangelicals do but we would make no difference we'd say holy ghost holy holy spirit all the difference for us is which translation you're using audio snoo Moses and Greek Holy Spirit Holy Ghost I think Holy Spirit's a better translation but we'd go back and say well the King James and some the older and so we would make no distinction between Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit and I don't know that we do in the church very much either it will talk about the spirit and we're talking about the influence of the Holy Ghost can you see how an evangelical those struggling with this because we really do believe Jesus Christ fully God in the beginning was the word the Word was with God the Word was God the word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld his glory the glory the only begotten from the father and so we think fully God so he's God first he becomes a man and that's exactly what we believe - well the nuances just still I know it's it because there are those differences but we believe that Jesus Christ was fully God who then became flesh and you said the only begotten of the Father begotten of the word there's a difficult one begotten if you go back and check in the Greek it does not mean that he's been born of but the essence and even the origin of the father and so it's it does we don't take that to mean he was physically begotten by God yeah and we see the divinity in Christ his ability to rise from the dead his ability to - his divinity and see many people today don't believe Jesus was divine they believe that he was just a Jewish kid that was born of Jewish parents and he was a great teacher and for latter-day saints that that's very hard to grasp because for us he is defiantly we would say a man that Jesus Christ is divine you know in terms of our struggle is saying that okay we were his spirit brothers and sisters yeah that we can become like him or that we can become like God we can be godlike we can be christ-like but that's a different category we can't obtain because there's only one and again I stopped my hear you and I say okay you're seeing that as a as a benefit I'm saying my god is so much so so big so grand we could never attain that God is omnipotent he's omniscient and I don't I recognize that see because for you you're saying hey there's so much space between God and me but I guess that's where my face is motivated it's it's built as I realized that that immense distance between God and me is not so immense that it's a very personal and close relationship and that his love is so real and so tangible and that we are nurtured by God and nurtured by Christ in a very real way for me God is no not so far out there that he's not close enough to give me a hug one of things I love about you and appreciate about you is your ability to speak clearly and and to say here's here's what I believe well I appreciate that about you see - and and I can feel the passion you have so I guess my my suggestion for evangelicals who are trying to understand Mormons is just think of it as becoming christ-like don't think of it as oh they're going to go be a Christ on some world somewhere but we don't think that I mean we read and you know that I am a God and embryos yeah and and and just don't go there because like I say that's doctrine that we don't even know that much about it's a bigger picture but all we've got our hands full right now just trying to become christ-like and to become godlike and so leave it there for now and that's where many members of the church I am - I think I am quoting though Joseph Smith or even oh yes you are I mean you're not off base in saying this is what Mormons believe but I think sometimes we focus on that so much that we forget that Mormons have their hands full just trying to not swear so I mean I guess that is true doctrine and your understanding it well but don't let it separate us don't let it separate us just realize that we're motivated to try to be better and for us right now that just means putting one foot in front of the other let's switch gears a little bit and just one of the things that we have talked about briefly and I was just fascinated by it was your belief in the fall and even Adam and Eve here on earth in the garden yeah I I have discussions with my low papist co-worker that on this all the time because she just can't understand how we think that the fall was a beneficial thing she says no that was a sin in in the Book of Moses even a celebration yeah right for us the fall was not a negative thing we honor Eve because she made a choice that said you know what mortality is important it's cool as in two choices in an LDS view be fruitful multiply and dodi from the tree in the garden it might understand this right and so what was about the tree in the garden we recall that the Tree of Life and what that would mean would be immortality and so if they had sinned or transgressed and then partaken of that fruit then they would have lived forever in their sins they would have lived forever without the possibility of forgiveness or without the possibility of ever returning to God and immortality in and of itself is not that great a gift I mean think of the book Tuck Everlasting you know you're just just living forever may not be all it's cracked up to be if you don't have the opportunity to live forever with God and so we believe that cherubim multiple angels you know terrible and a flaming sword replaced not in symbol of God's anger or God's retribution but rather as an arrow an arrow pointing toward the atonement of Jesus Christ through which we could all receive immortality and the possibility of returning to be with God so that the tree in the in the garden and the command to what seemed to me equally binding commands do not eat of the tree and be fruitful and multiply but don't be bonjela close recognize those same commands I mean they're right out of the Bible yes we recognize both those commands but we would say when he took of the tree that was a sin we call that the fall and there kicked out of the garden that was a very bad thing in fact as I read that as an evangelical it's actually believing exactly what Satan said look if you eat of that you can become like God and I hear an LDS view and say well actually they gave two commands they had to figure out which one they needed to obey in order to follow the other one and so when she actually took of the the tree in the garden they rejoice and say if we had not say that for because they fell and their that fall came with consequences it brought death into the world it brought sin it came with consequences but we wouldn't say that the garden was the ultimate goal see and that's where my Baptist friend always gets frustrated with me because she says no that's the goal and and this is all plan B and Jesus had to come down and put his finger in the dike because he had to solve the problem and for me I say well how do I have faith in a god that's taking all of humanity on Plan B but we would never call that plan B we believed ever since the beginning of creation God knew what would happen that God was going to come in son and that's what we believe as well that that was the pre known that Jesus was the Saviour from the foundation of the world okay so their bodies Adam and Eve's physical bodies when they were put here on flesh and bone they were immortal in the garden as a particular fruit then blood then they became mortal so they didn't get blood until after they eat from the tree Rider and that brought blood which brought death and so that's what we believe is that they weren't punished and being kicked out they were being sent to school so no to punishment because I read in Genesis that boy because of the fall they're not only kicked out of the garden but they're going to have to they're going to be storms and thistles Nevada increased suffering and then punishment no we would say we would say that that that's no more punishment to the school is punishment for your kid you know that's what that we we we would send a child to school knowing there's going to be a few thorns and thistles and briars but we would say it is better for us to pass through this so that we can learn so that we can grow and we believe that that Jesus Jesus is our Savior not just because he can redeem us from death and forgive us from sin but because through His grace we can actually become better not just getting us back to God after we fell from God I mean if that's the whole point of the atonement just to get us back after we fell then I would say we're not looking at the atonement widely enough because we believe that not only can we fall and get back but we can become better for having come and we honor and worship and love the Savior because through His grace we can become better for having come to school we didn't just go through all of this just to get back to where we really were grace here I think that's even a word that we probably use at least a little in a sense a little different maybe I'd like to ask this question so when Jesus came and he did come to earth and die for us I think there's even a small difference here that you believe that Jesus the atonement took place in the garden no we believe that the Tollman took place in the garden on the cross and and that it culminated in his rising from the dead okay didn't hear the death of Jesus on the cross yeah the death of Jesus on the cross so garden suffering the suffering and death of Jesus on the cross and and that that we would believe that the atonement was finished that's why everybody says in 2020 or you're going to go to the passion play in Germany and I would love to anybody wants to take me I'd love to go but that passion play ends with the death of Jesus on the cross it doesn't show the resurrection and Mormons would say that's incomplete and we would say that also they would say we would we would be together in saying hey you missed the final scene the death burial and resurrection exactly and so and so we believe that the atonement was more but we do believe that more happen in the garden than most evangelicals from what I understand well I would say that all of Jesus even his coming to Earth and is being ridiculed unjustly and as he's beaten and tortured so that was all part of them absolutely and you know culminating in terms of our sins being atone for on the cross our hope comes Jesus conquered death and we have hope for new life in the resurrection yeah young man but in terms of the atonement what Jesus accomplished for us I died here we again another word we throw out that I think sometimes we use differently is the word salvation and I think in the LDS Church we actually speak of a different a couple different kinds of cell yeah when most Christians say to me have you been saved by grace they think that the red flag goes up on the word grace but that's not true I think I think our our understanding of grace is probably much more in common than we realize because we believe that we are totally dependent on Jesus Christ for for our salvation what type of salvation that's it see the red flag doesn't go up on we're great if we're going to have a conversation let's talk about salvation correct because for many Christians salvation is this big it's getting back into heaven slipping Peter at 20 sneaking past the pearly gates you know and and just getting into heaven is salvation and for Mormons that's just the beginning that's just part of a much bigger you said earlier our God is a big God well I'd say our salvation is a big holiday isola yeah but in terms of the first level of salvation in Mormonism is actually being raised to face judgment but um yeah I guess I mean we're saved from death we're saved through Jesus Christ yes through Jesus Christ by grace yes by grace will be resurrected we're forgiven for sin by grace through the grace of Jesus Christ and through the grace of Jesus Christ we also believe that we can be transformed many Christians say to me have you been saved by grace and I say well yes but my salvation includes being transformed by grace see for many Christians grace is a get-out-of-jail-free card yeah I wouldn't agree with that I mean in terms of I can't speak for all evangelical people but certainly might I'm saved by grace I say by grace through faith that not of ourselves official to God not by works oh no one closed that is not just saved to sit that's not just saved a soak that's saved it so we can continue yes in that regard you and I are on the same page because the difference is when we start defining salvation in a second way not just raised to face judgment not just okay we we we define it in six ways at least I want to get to at least one of those yeah and what I want to get to is exaltation yeah okay and exaltation requires certain things that we have to do yeah let's see a lot of Christians look at our ordinances or they look at our covenants and they say you're working your way to heaven no we look at our ordinances and our covenants not that we are believing more in works than in grace but rather we see that those covenants and those ordinances are a way of inviting more grace into our lives for us grace isn't something that comes wants grace is something that we get more and more and more of kind of like my my little grandkids I read him a book the day they were born and now they're old enough to read books to me in the minute they finish one book I give them another and when they finish that when I give them another and I think that that's how we receive grace as we as we utilize it as we appreciate this gift then God gives us more gift and so as you look at us doing ordinances even temple ordinances don't ever look at that and say oh they're working their way to heaven no we're learning we're learning how to be better and we're learning how to invite more grace into our lives but I think I do read those that in terms of exaltation there are certain things that we must do in order you have to receive that and they are so essential that we're even going to do them for you when you're dead yeah another interesting topic Jonathas in for the dead I mean we believe they're essential but we don't believe they're essential as in exclusive we believe they're essential as in we're going to offer them to everyone and everyone will have the choice to say yes I I want to receive more grace or no thank you yeah and when we read 2nd Nephi it's just like a shock to us you know grace is what we get after all we can do well guess what that's a shock for a lot of Mormons too and a lot of Mormons don't quite understand that scripture in their own Book of Mormon because if you look at the context around the scripture you see that what is being taught Jacob is teaching of buying milk and honey without money without price and so I always try to remind myself and my students that it may not be after all we can do as in you and me and that jesus' grace is somehow supplementing our works that's not an accurate view of mormon doctrine even though that's been a popular analogy that's been used we don't believe that Jesus is grace supplement works as if we have to meet some sort of minimum height requirement to get into heaven I guess yes we believe that it's not my part in his part we believe it's my heart and his heart loving each other and being conformed to the same image and that and that he's working together with me so when I think of that Scripture I don't think after all we can do I think after all we can do after all Jesus and I can do working together it's still a very good thing for an evangelical because again season two eight nine by grace we've been saved you know with a not by own good works we are saved for good works I mean we're expecting to go out and because of our salvation do things and I'm grateful that you believe that so deeply because Steve you know dang well there's a lot of spiritual couch potatoes out there in both of our churches yeah and and and I'm grateful that you see that that's part of what we're trying to do as we practice a lot of this is we talk about these things again just to go back and say there there are some differences and there there are differences that we need to have this blog about and so to be able to sit down have a good friendly discussion and realize we do have have differences one of the main differences as well may I compliment you I mean at these will Mike's or private us both Craig's it but I compliment you because as I've expressed my views and I know that you're sitting there going what but you've been very respectful and it makes me feel safe in expressing what I believe in what I view and so I admire that and that's what I hope we can do as we speak with each other if part of tonight is to model that conversation you have helped me feel very comfortable as I've talked about things that are very important well I really do want to know what you believe I want to I want to be able to talk about that accurately and you know and learn and so not just so I read this in a book somewhere where I really want to know what you believe and why you believe it well and I feel the same way about your faith traditions one of our biggest obstacles is because as an evangelical I believe the Bible is is the Word of God and I believe it's the complete Word of God and so here's one of the things that we're going to have differences because we're not we're not reading from the same playbook exactly right yeah and so for latter-day saints we believe the Bible is the Word of God but then we believe that there's more and for an evangelical that's hard because then you say what there's more and we say thank Heaven there's more I mean for us that gives us that bigger window a window that's much larger through which we can see and worship and emulate our Savior and our Father you used to frame as one stopping kind of come bring back some clarity we believe the Bible we were the Word of God yeah as far as it is transit for translated accurately and so I mean even even Joseph Smith would would talk about you know many plain and precious truths have been removed and you know elsewhere I read Mormon prophets saying that we're not even sure if even one verse has not been tampered by an abominable Church and and and so that that would be a point of contention to because I I've read the Bible deliver God and I believe all of it yeah before we thought before we even go on to the the the other scriptures I go back and and the reason why I believe that the Bible's that would have add up that a little acronym I think I've shared this with you before yes before we I beg you to believe I use the word map and when when maybe did we need to use that Mike Jeff am i popping and try I you know I'm scared of these things I'd really am can we can we put on a stand like a lean in curtain or do I have to Oh anyway now I'm just gonna hold it and see how that goes yeah that's great much better much better so I am scared of microphone believe it or not can you hear me or should I grab one of those too you can hear me okay so if you've not heard me all night yeah is that that's a little troubling let's start over I've got an acronym of maps and the reason why I believe the Bible to be the Word of God first of all is the manuscript evidence is just so overwhelming in terms of go back and start counting ancient Greek manuscripts and 6,000 ancient Greek manuscripts the scroll yeah yeah and I'm with also manuscript evidence is overwhelming also archaeology that I lead tours to the Holy Land and we go and and I do as well I'm with you oh yeah and in terms of so manuscripts and archaeology and prophecy also the statistical probability and of 12 apostles that would die for a known lie and those type of things so I use that and the reason why I believe the Bible is because in every area where it can be tested it can be trusted which takes me to the next level if it could be trusted in every area where it can be tested in those areas that it can't be tested and I can excite my fate yes I can trust it in those two and so I am with you on every one of those points we would feel the same way about the Bible we would feel that and when we hear somebody say well many plain and precious truths have been removed and what I what I want to what I want to say is well go back in and check out the manuscript evidence the truth of matter is we have hundreds of thousands of copies of Scripture in various forms and in almost those copies there are about 200,000 variants but the truth matter is out of all those manuscripts there 99.8% identical and so when I hear somebody say well many plain and precious truths have been aruba I want to stop and say well can I can I see some evidence for that and so so that's hard language you bet and and we we would we would line up and we would stand shoulder-to-shoulder in defense of everything you said but then I think what we'd have to say beyond that is that if you're honest within the Christian circles there's a lot of interpretations of that Bible and there are a lot you know this church is baptizing by immersion because of what it says in the Bible this church is baptizing Spri spring because of what it says this church doesn't do baptisms because we're saved by grace because of this church does gay marriages this church doesn't because of what it says in the Bible there's certainly some things that the evangelical Christianity would divide it yeah ever but the truth matter is the main things who God is and who Jesus is that we're saved by grace through faith those things are steadfast and so while we might disagree upon some some things about the second coming of Jesus or how we partake or how different scriptures are interpreted yeah even then we come back and we try to say well here's what it meant to the first century audience if it's if it's a New Testament here's what it meant the first century audience we might have some differences about how we interpret that to a 21st century audience but the principles are still the same but we look at the scriptures and we say okay there is these are substantiated there is evidence manuscript evidence in archaeology and yeah and you know what we would say the same thing I mean we would we drill at the evidence like the Dead Sea Scrolls we drill at that because that substantiates our faith just as it does yours but see some lady came to me and said are you a Bible based church and I said well not necessarily Bible based in the way you're thinking about but we are Bible based in a way you've never even considered because we don't see the Bible as religion we see it as a history of people who had religion and what religion did the people in the Bible have they had living prophets they had living apostles they didn't have the Bible in the form that we have today and so then I say in that regard then perhaps latter-day saints are the most Bible based religion yeah we would stop and say Hebrews you know the past God spoke those forefathers many different ways many different means but in these last days he's speaking to us in his son and that we would say that period around Jesus and His disciples that's the last heir yeah and that's where we have to agree to disagree in fact even a phrase that we believe that you know I think it's even your current prophet that said you know we don't take our marching orders from words to a previous dispensation but we've got a living prophet we've got a prophet from this distance oh and and latter-day saints feel very strongly about that and so yes we believe in the Bible but we also you know I was interesting I have a discussion with an evangelical pastor in Utah County and he was saying you know he said I have to believe the whole Bible I can't pick and choose because to be able to pick and choose you'd have to have a prophet and I said we got one of those and see you would have to you'd have to have a prophet to be able to pick and choose and say well this is a figurative even interpretation but this one over here is literal we'll see we're grateful that we have prophets today just as they have prophets in the past and so for us that's a very important thing and I know for you it's about this close to blasphemy and I'm this close to the flames of hell I know that because it's like very hard for you to to believe that we can see a bigger picture but for us the Bible is part of a picture it's not the whole frame yes but back that other comment that that even well that the Bible was for a previous dispensation but still is that an accurate statement yes if we believe the Bible but we also believe that there are instructions to us today that perhaps aren't aren't in the Bible or maybe even some things that are in the Bible the Bible talks about baptisms for the dead but we don't do baptisms for the dead because of some first in the Bible even though it's there we do baptisms for the dead because prophets tell us I just I just preached that passage this week and so you didn't get started on that one all right all right I spent 45 minutes on that and so I get another passage we'd see differently but you base it not because of what's said in prescribes we don't do baptisms for the dead because of Corinthians we do baptisms for the dead because that's what prophets tell us to do and if they said to don't do them then we would stop doing them even if it was in the Bible that said we should do them and that's hard it's hard I need to hear that one more time to process that so if a current prophet said something even that wasn't in the Bible well we're going to do that yeah because the current prophet said what about things and current prophet says that are in the Bible that may be different than the Bible has said before let's see we believe the Bible is part of our standard works in this standard means it's something we measure truth against and so I'm saying that not because it would happen but I'm saying it because if it happened I mean we believe the scriptures are standard and we measure truth against that standard but part of that standard for us are the words and teachings of living prophets living apostles I mean long ago there was Peter James and John for us today there's Thomas Henry and dieter now we don't usually call them by their first names but we believe it's the same priesthood office the same priesthood Authority the same special witness of the Lord and so their words to us are just as important as the words of Peter James and John which I love with all my heart and so that the and you're not talking just about the President of the the Mormon Church we talked about the First Presidency and the quorum of the twelve and the quorum the twelve and so if there was to be a revelation to be approved by all of those yes and their words the words of the quorum the the first presidency and the and the president of the church would be on the same level as Scripture yeah and for an evangelical that I mean those are just like those crédit words do you remember when you were in Israel we had the chance to talk to a rabbi it was a fascinating experience and one person in the group raised a hand and said how can this Jew look like he just came out of Poland in the 1800s and this Jew looked totally modern and yet they're both Jews and yet they're living so differently and he said well he said there's a lot of differences within Judaism but he said the reason that we have to cut each other a little flock is because we don't have a prophet he said if we had a prophet then a prophet could say knock it off quit wearing the Hat knock it off do this dude he says then we could unite because we would have one voice of authority he says the problem with Judaism is that we don't have that voice and I just wanted to jump out of my chair and say we have that voice you know I'd stop and say I've got that same voice it's the voice of Jesus Christ he's my Lord and Savior and all of it yes and I would say that I have that same voice Jesus Christ who speaks to us as he has always spoken to us through prophets I I can have that same that same feeling because then there's unity good grief christianity is so fractured by far the most fractured of all the world face National Geographic Society says there's ninety thousand different Christian churches and that's just an Idaho Falls yeah and now it's hard for me as a latter-day saint to believe that 90,000 people are marching to the same voice of the same Jesus talking to all of them that's hard for me as a latter-day saint to believe yeah yeah we would stop and we've got a phrase that we like to talk about and certainly and and most all of Evangelicals think of fractured Christianity as a tragedy but most of us would stop and say in essentials unity in non essentials liberty and all things love and so certainly among evangelicals there are things that we don't agree upon I like telling people that may I be honest sure here why are we excluded from this because of militating suche in in principle things in core things unity but liberty and love so how come the Mormons are left out of that circle we've included those things and the things really that we're talking about tonight in terms of who God is that radically I think a radically different definition than in terms of a and not only an all-powerful but always existent god creator god where we look and say well Mormons believe something different in that even in this phrase of who Jesus is we'd stop and say it's really not the same Jesus who but see that's a hard one for us to listen to because we love the Lord we love him with all of our hearts and then when you put us out on some different planet that's hard for us so maybe we have a different view of the same Jesus the wise men and the elephants the blind men and the elephant maybe we have a different view of Jesus and maybe our view isn't as complete as it will one day be maybe your view is and it's complete as it will one day be but we believe that we love the same Lord we really do well it's glad that we can have these kind of conversation that and so but I would say most of the evangelical in terms of their deafness of who God is their definition of who Jesus is even the definition of the Holy Spirit the definition of what salvation is and what that those things there is remarkable unity on those things will we have differences and I started to say you know we do have differences I'm so glad because I'm the only person I know with perfect theology I'm the only one and I say that jokingly throw anything at me but certainly we've never I've never found somebody that I agree with 100% well I get to test my students and you don't get to test your church members but they have to prove to me that they that I have perfect theology yeah and so go back to the question you know the reason why I mean coming back to some of the very basic definitions of who God is and who Jesus is and what salvation is and honestly even definitions about Heaven and Hell there there is some diversity in evangelicals about those but but the the main tenets of those things are different to which I mean even heaven it to me is a fascinating thing in terms of I understand in Mormonism levels of heaven and took me kind of talked about that well my Baptist friend always says your heaven is like chutes and ladders like the game and I guess I guess in a way it is but if we just without going into a lot of detail I think the main point is that this life isn't the last chance for us to learn and grow and that's good news for a parent whose child has committed suicide that's good news for parents whose children have made bad decisions that's good news for parents who have lost kids before those kids have come to an embrace of God and see for many Christians that Heaven and Hell comes pretty quickly right after death but for Mormons there's still time to grow time to learn time to progress time to utilize the grace that flows from a crisis tone and so even though ours heaven and our hell may look a little different and seem complicated it's in a in a nutshell it's a beautiful doctrine that says God's giving us as many possible chances as he can to help us get it and that scares us to death because as evangelicals we firmly believe that the Jesus Christ you know he died he came to bring salvation and there aren't second chances and so we've got this urgency of we need to tell the world about Jesus Christ because there's only one way there's only one truth there's only one life that's through Jesus crying you know then that effo or that's something that I appreciate and we don't have we don't have these chances after the grave but see I appreciate that passion because it helps me understand why you want so desperately to help me understand your views because I recognize it for you yourse and Brad this is it and I'm saying if this is it God sure left a lot of kids in the dark there's a lot of people on this planet has never even heard the name of well evangelicals again we think God is a loving gracious merciful God and we're gonna leave judgment to him and so I'm not going to think I'm going to be surprised with people that make it to heaven I'm also gonna be surprised about some people that don't make it there but that's in God's hands but I do have this commission that we need to go and tell the world that we need to tell the world about Jesus Christ and I don't read in the Bible I don't read about second chances and and so you know that that bothers us in terms of man God has given us so much evidence he's given us so much instruction he's demonstrated his love so much by sending his son Jesus Christ to die for us and we've got this one message and it's an urgent message that we've got to take forward and we believe that too we invest a lot of money in a lot of volunteer hours and taking a message forward but remember you said well I'm going to leave that judgment to God and we just believe that we know a little bit more about that judgment process that instead of just saying well God will work it out we believe that he's told us a little bit more about how he's going to work it out and that he's engaging us in that process of helping our brothers and sisters and again scripture you know there came wants to die and then comes judgment we don't see a second chance after that and for us that's false hope that's a ok you're counting on a second chance after the I and for me that's my only hope so I'm very grateful for that doctrine but I do like I said it helps me understand your passion and it helps me understand why your teenagers come up to Mormon teenagers and say you've got a change you're going to hell which is very offensive for Mormon teenagers because we believe hell is just school and they're already in school and so but see it helps me understand the passion because when these young evangelicals come up and say I care about you I want to save you it helps me understand that passion because of the viewpoint they're coming from but they need to also understand that these Mormons have a little different viewpoint not theirs that there's not anxiousness to be anxiously engaged that there's not urgent see we feel that urgency desperately but part of that urgency is to help provide opportunities for the countless who have been born in heathen nations that we just believe God doesn't give up on you made a comment that I want to circle back to in terms of we believe schools held but what is that what is the Mormon view well for us hell we call it a spirit prison and after we die we believe that those who have made covenant will go to a paradise those that have not made covenants will go to a school a spirit prison but not prison as in punishment but a place where Jesus himself went during the three days his body lay in the tomb to be able to start teaching to be able to start letting people know his gospel who never had a chance to hear his gospel and so for us hell means that they had a chance to learn to grow to progress to accept the opportunity to make covenants with Christ and to be able to engage with Christ and receive His grace take a really different view of Peter there that the passage you're referencing in terms of Jesus we wouldn't say Jesus went to go and preach the gospel in hell he went to proclaim victory and announce a I've triumphed over the grave yeah so a different view on on that as well but and so for but mighty Steve we would say he went to proclaim victory but he went to extend the victory to all who had never heard of the victory before yeah and again that that would trouble us in terms of again second chances we just don't read that in scripture but but back to hell so hell is a temporary place from which most people all people will be released eventually now most people will because we we believe in people we believe that given the right circumstances and the right understandings that they will learn to love the Savior even if they never heard of him in this life that they will Hindus and Shintoist and and Muslims have never even heard of him or believed in him or loved him that they will learn to love him as we love him and so we believe that that is temporary and that there will come a time when people will be judged but that judgment will not necessarily be a judgment of oh you can't come oh please let me come please let me come no we believe that judgment will be more of okay let's put you in a place where you feel comfortable because if you haven't developed to a point where you are like Jesus you're not going to want to be with him you're not isn't going to want it and so yes we see that judgment a little differently and our hell is temporary for most people the Mormons heaven is huge and our hell is very small and in many other religions hell is very big and heaven is very small yeah and so they're temporarily and so most all people will inherit some degree of glory yeah we believe that and so there's a you know Telestial terrestrial celestial heaven are you teaching gospel doctrine today my gosh not enjoying I thought I'm impressed I try to read and I try to study and I'm really more than that trying to understand because I have some questions about that too and so you know I read about Telestial heaven and the area of the Holy Spirit and the terrestrial which bothers me too because that means earthly but terrestrial is a place where Jesus is and the celestial is a place where God God and Jesus are and all of those those who will receive exaltation but again without all the complication it just means that for us there's not a cut off oh iron 61 points so I made it in Oh iron 59 points and I made it out we don't look at heaven is something that's being earned we look at it as heaven is not a prize for those who make it heaven is the future home of those who are willing to engage with Christ in becoming like him and so there will be many people who reach different levels in that process and so the fact that there's so many different levels is evidence that God is good and is loving and not willing to force us to be in a place if you don't know how to read a library is not going to be heaven and so we believe that he's going to give everybody the opportunity to learn to read before putting them in the library and so even bad people inherit some degree of glory and then good moral people will inherit another degree of glory and then then the final degree of glory is saltation where you can become a god yourself that you can learn from God that you can be in his presence that you can be with him forever and he can teach and tutor you I use that last phrase kind of deliberately so that it's not the belief that you can become a god yourself oh I think we've established that that yes we can become God but again Steve that's so far out there that's not something that happens the minute we die that's so far out there that for us we just back away from that and I don't wake up every morning going boom I'm going to become a god I wake up every morning going please bless me to hold my patience please bless me to be better please bless me to be kinder please fill me with I love that's what I pray I didn't a good job of that patience saying yeah questions and well if we have just a few minutes Leslie may I ask you a question I love it so why are you still in organized religion I mean it's got to go deeper than it's your job I mean both of us have a job me teaching at a university you preaching but why why do you cling to organized religion and why do you cling to God in a world where everyone around you including many Christians absolutely are caving in and giving that up completely well I believe it with all my heart in terms of it's it's not a show it's not an act I've gone I've researched I've asked the hard questions I've gone and and tried not to live off my parents faith or my grandparents faith but I've gone and researched and I believe it because it's true it goes back to this thing I said earlier that in every area where the Bible can be tested it can be trusted if that's true it doesn't take much faith to say it can be trusted in areas where it can't be tested and so I go back and say the Christianity has the answers the world needs and turning Mandi we see this strife around us we see the fighting that's going on we see that the the the wars that are taking place we see the spiral I see anyway I don't know if you all see it but I see the world spiraling downward and it seems like I dick going very quick very like the last 10 or 15 years and all of a sudden right is is now wrong and wrong is now right and Jesus Christ is like in our lifetime Steve absolutely yeah and that's wrong because the and it and at that core there's not one thing that you had just said that I would not say with all sincerity to my students I would say those exact same words what keeps me and organized religion what keeps me connected to God or because I I know from my study I know from my experience and I know from the spirit the Holy Ghost that has touched me in ways that I can't deny I know that God is real and because of that I know that Jesus Christ is real that he's my Savior and because of that I can't imagine my life without that and so many people in this world just look at religion is like a an extra oh that's just like Little League or Boy Scout type I can choose it or I don't choose it but for me if it's just an essentially it's it's core to who I am and because of that then I feel that connection with you and even though there are differences I feel that connection because I know you love God and I know I love God Janice cap Perry wrote a beautiful song that said because I know you love him because I love him too it deepens and refines my love for you and I guess my hope out of tonight is that we won't walk out of here feeling like we're completely on two different teams I hope we can walk out of here feeling like because I know you're passionate about this in a world where people make nothing but jokes about it because I know you're passionate about it then it deepens my love and respect for you and and if if we can walk out of here just with a little more of that connection agreeing to disagree where we disagree you know I would I would I would say don't look at Mormons as as different see us as viewing that we have a little more a little more we're not running around our little missionaries aren't running around trying to convert everybody because we're saying you're a bad faith we're good faith you're evil we're right you're wrong you know we're just saying look we've got a little bit more we've got a little bit more to offer we got a little bigger perspective and and so I just want so badly instead of being looked at is different to be looked at as just my perspective it says that we have just a little bit more understanding and a little bit more to offer and so let's take that core love that we feel and that core genuine sincere love of God and love of the Savior and let's just try to translate that into love for each other like I can say that first of all I value our friendship yeah and I agree and so I'm thankful be able to good luck with the wedding between now and July you and your wife have a rocky road but I I do value our friendship and I know that we're both on a journey for truth I can say that I am a beneficiary from living in Idaho and living in Utah for very strong communities and very strong morals and those thing and there is so much especially there's a value in faith absolutely the morality we believe in again and they're their fights that we need to stand together on yeah right and I'll stand shoulder-to-shoulder with you on terms of redefining rights and wrongs and and values and those kind of things that we need to stand side-by-side but what we both want and what we want for all of you is you ask me why my Christian well I believe that the Christianity can be tested and withstand the test of scrutiny and so for all of us what we want is we want to we want to seek the true and we want to ask the questions and we want to have dialogues and we want to care for our neighbors and say I do know this that Jesus Christ is the way the truth of life there's no way to the Father except through him and so we're going to preach Jesus Christ amen tonight I know that [Applause] our time has come quickly and I know that we're gonna have a closing prayer but can I can I pray on top of a prayer is that okay and so I'm going to pre pray say okay Mormons need as many prayers as we can get um I just want to say a quick prayer and and thank you for coming then we're gonna have an official prayer a real prayer after this one but I want to pray so let's pray father we want to come before you right now and father just help us in everything we do exhibit Christ's likeness and father what we want what we value is truth and so we do so as people on a journey for truth and what we want is we want to take the Gospel message to a lost and dying world and that's our hope and that's our prayer and I pray this the name of Jesus Christ amen amen thanks so much for coming appreciate your attendance thank you [Applause] thank you gentlemen give him another hand there [Applause] well thank you for your honesty guys we really appreciate your willingness to be involved in this these moments can be a little tense but we but we really appreciate the friendly way in which they've exchanged ideas and I hope you do appreciate that I want to thank these guys Brad and Steve for their willingness but also some other people I'd like to thank Rick Lum and Larry Hall for putting this whole thing together and their team would you thank them for us i also want to thank joe walton for putting together all the wonderful entertainment we had tonight thank him if you would and my fellow MC in the house jay Hildebrandt thank you sir for being a part of this and then one more thing we will have a video of this which will be available on our website or our Facebook page or if you actually sign up for a ticket tonight you will get an automatic email to say the videos ready you can click here here's your link if you want that link you can go out to the lobby and grab one of those blue cards and you can still register for the event and you'll get an automatic email telling you when when the video is ready as well so please do that also our conversationalist tonight will be out in the lobby please do stop by if you can well maybe not all of you but one or two of you please do say hello and just thank them for being willing to be here tonight let's keep the conversation going if we will so grab a evangelical friend or a Mormon neighbor and then invite them out for coffee will not coffee don't don't do that breakfast would be better sorry it didn't make that covenant okay let's let's pray and then we'll be done God in heaven we are so glad that you have been with us tonight and we do pray for truth we want our eyes open Lord God we pray that you would show us the truth of your gospel and Lord we ask that as we walk out of this door we walk further into the presence of the people that you died on the cross for and that you loved so much and God may we know that in Jesus name Amen thank you folks have a great night you

Channel: Christ Community Church

Views: 67,990

Rating: 4.7430406 out of 5

Keywords: Christ Community Church, Evangelical, Christian, LDS, Mormon, Brad Wilcox, Steven Crane, Conversation, Idaho Falls

Id: 56eloRh500Y

Length: 91min 43sec (5503 seconds)

Published: Wed Jun 21 2017