Franciscan University Presents: The Mystery of Suffering

in this life no one escapes suffering we all suffer at some time and in some way and we all confront the questions of why we suffer and how we suffer join us today as we examine the age-old mystery of suffering with Jeff Cavins author of the new book when you suffer biblical keys for hope and understanding I'm Michael Hernon vice president of advancement at Franciscan University in Steubenville Ohio and you're watching Franciscan University presents stay with us welcome to Franciscan University presents I'm your host Michael Hernon vice-president of advancement here at Franciscan University today we'll be talking about a topic that I think is is pertinent to everyone suffering and I'm joined here in our studios by our regular panelist dr. regis martin professor of systematic theology here at Franciscan University and dr. Scott Hahn who holds the father Michael Scanlon chair in biblical theology in the New Evangelization again here at Franciscan University and no stranger to the EWTN or to Franciscan University Jeff Cavins you're a former Protestant pastor you got your MA in theology here at Franciscan I'm a big fan of the great adventure Bible series that you created and we're here today talking about your latest book biblical key are when you suffer biblical keys for hope and understanding good to be with you yeah thanks for extra joining us so you you talk about a distinction in your book about the feeling good and living well what's the distinction there I mean it we were talking about suffering so that's well I think that's already there thank you I think the big the big problem for modern man when it comes to suffering is that they acknowledge the fact that the Jesus died for them he died for their sins and if he died for their sins he died for their sins because he loves them and if he loves them and died for them he wants them to be happy right and if the modern notion of happiness is that if I'm happy I'm not going to suffer that's why God died for me that I wouldn't suffer and ultimately that's true and in that he he deals with definitive suffering or eternal suffering but if man thinks that that happiness is equivalent to not suffering then the modern man puts himself in a position where he can never be happy but the ancient notion in the biblical notion really is that happiness comes from living well or living right or living righteously living before God and in that situation you can suffer and at the same time experience deep happiness you know at that point I think is worth emphasizing because it isn't just a Christian notion you know in a pre-christian context great philosophers recognized that a life of goodness is the only source of happiness not pleasure I mean there were Epicureans who said eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die but the fact is Plato and Socrates and Aristotle and others recognize that that that's dehumanizing that's sort of that sort of hedonism that what Nobles us is the pursuit of goodness in the attainment of virtue and you know I think you know you'd make that little interior adjustment and then you realize also that when it comes to everything else in life what nautilus used to say no pain no gain applies I mean suffering has a purpose nautilus did the exercise of questions up in the garage let me make two quick points which I think are in reaction to what you've what you've said and your book is a wonderful illustration of it you would have to repeal the entire human condition to rid man of suffering to be alive is to suffer I mean you carry your death before you it's the final cancellation awareness of that end mortality sort of induces suffering at least the suffering of anxiety fear of what is to come and the Greeks I think had the sense of it when they when they identified eudaimonia as happiness governed by reason it's not a warm puppy it's not a warm fuzzy to be fully alive is to include suffering make provision for pain but the other point of course the Greeks were utterly unaware of and that's the Christian point that Christ redeems our suffering he doesn't eliminate it he fills it with his presence and that's the sort of mystery that I think is worth exploring and I think that you know that if if people cannot attach meaning to their suffering they can go into despair but if they can attach meaning to their suffering they can go through anything and in fact do go through a lot for example we have children and our children suffer and what's one of the first things we say is that I would rather it be me in a substitutionary way and there is meaning if I could take it it would mean something for you and and so our whole world really is trying to flee from suffering in a lot of ways and and even even well-meaning Christians believe you know as you said that God has saved me therefore I should be free from this pain I mean the kind of the health wealth gospel all right that time in our in our in our practical modern theology puts us in a situation where we can't win yeah you cannot be happy or if we're gonna be happy maybe 30% of our life is what we call ideal things are going well I'm in my wheelhouse you know and I'm affirmed and so forth but the rest of it I'm just merely putting up with with life and I think one of the were the contentions that I would make is that Jesus came to do more than to do more for you and he died not that you would just put up with life yeah yeah in terms of recurrence of bouts of suffering which we are all condemned to face probably the most obvious one is is giving birth to a child which none of us can really identify with except nice variously but the woman bears that pain for the sake of the child there's a good that is somehow implicit in this pain not that she embraces the pain she endures it it's a passive diminishment but she recognizes that there is good on the far side of this suffering and it's worth it at the same time you know you're pointing out different kinds of suffering physical suffering moral suffering you know and then you also cite John Paul definitive suffering you know we speak about attaching meaning to suffering but it isn't always so easy as to connect the dots you know a suffering B meaning you know I'm going through labor pains I'm gonna have a baby you know so often we're going through suffering and all we can do is to extend a line of credit to Almighty God and say I hope you know why I'm doing this or that's yummy hope and it isn't just you know well it's because you sinned in others too and so I'm getting even you go all the way back to the garden and you realize that when man when God said it is not good that man is alone know the the quick and easy solution is well that's why you know she came around so that even at but even still I mean if Adam was the only person who existed and he was enveloped into the beat the vision of the Holy Trinity you know God would not say well it is not good for him to be alone because he wouldn't be alone he would be in the communion of the three persons of the Godhead I think what this does is it shows us that even in Paradise were not at our final destination you know entering into the Trinity is not plan B and even if Adam would have passed the polygraph saying you know paradise this is my final destination God is saying no it's not you know this is a state of probation I'm going to prove and test your love by giving you a bride worth living for and dying for and all of that but I just think that we don't recognize how deeply embedded this is you know Hebrews five verse seven and eight one of my favorite verses though a son he learned obedience through what he suffered it was like you know what you know if Jesus assumes her humanity and can only express his divine sonship through human obedience by means of suffering we have to go back to square one and rethink everything yeah yeah let's go back to something you started with Scott the the types of suffering that you talk about in the book right you can just explain some of those types of and why sure what they matter there are two types of suffering or two kinds of two kinds of suffering there is there is physical suffering which all of us have experienced due to the fall I mean they're subject to this and this disease and so forth and so we got physical suffering but we also have what st. john paul ii called moral suffering which is a suffering of the heart the emotions the loss of a loved one betrayal discouragement and so you have these two these two kinds of but then he goes deeper and says there's two types yes well when one is temporal but the other is definitive yeah and that's forever and that's forever and ever and ever and that's really what his actions are pointing to is that he does love you he doesn't want you to suffer for ever and ever and ever any employees the physical suffering any employees that suffering of the heart and so does his mother suffers in the heart and addresses this issue of definitive suffering in our life because we don't want definitive or I think to make clear the distinction that if you get definitive suffering a final separation from God it's self chosen itself in France may God is not doing this to you you you have done it to yourself I mean this illustrates what what CS Lewis calls the terrifying compliment God takes us so seriously as spiritual beings that he allows us even to spit in his eye you know to burn the last bridge to beatitude we can do that we can disappoint God by taking ourselves to hell that's definitive suffering you know there's another aspect to it besides the eschatological the everlasting form of definitive suffering that is when John Paul speaks of definitive suffering is the loss of eternal life we forget that that is also experienced on the installment plan gradually because when you commit mortal sin you have snuffed out God's life into the soul you have lost eternal life now there's a grace that there's a gracious Sacrament for that the medicine of divine mercy but I think what this is meant to teach us is to is to detest suffering in all of its forms but to dread offending God more than a we dread physical pain or even the pain of the soul that the loss of eternal life is reasonably speaking absolute and ultimate in a way that no other form of suffering is and there's just nothing I mean it's it goes back to the weakness of our own nature that doesn't perceive that sort of loss as that big of a thing yeah so who on this earth we really experience mostly temporal suffering right you know and there's the moral and there's the physical is there a connection between the moral and the physical is that is it simply when we're watching someone else suffer is that a moral connection between them well I think there can be a connection between moral and physical suffering of somebody for example a number of years ago I went through quite a neck problem where my neck was fused I went through nine months of pain in fact during that period you and I spoke on the phone many nights and spoke about suffering and what does it mean to offer it up and how do you do it and right now it's up here and I can I can even have a CD on it but but I can't get it down here and I can't I can't implement this in my in my life and and I hurt really bad but then there's started to to become a suffering of the heart at the same time of wondering you know ecclesiastical someway deep inside there's this knowledge that I'm gonna live for eternity and I realized my current condition how long oh Lord will this last and I'm only in my 40s at the time and I'm thinking is this the way it's gonna be in my 60s in my 70s in my 80s and I began to take on a little bit different kind of suffering and I think that pointed to this this deeper reality of what if I did experience definitive suffering oh my word and so I I think often times they're they're they're combined you know or the guy that breaks his legs in an accident or it becomes a quadriplegic and thinks I won't have a job and plus there's also it's it's it's a kind of two-way thing because on the one hand if you commit a moral evil moral you know you're speeding or you're driving drunk then a pain in the neck you know the whiplash or whatever you know that's suffering for doing right that's right yeah there's cause and effect then it goes in different directions you know and I think we experience both but I think the instinctive tendency is to think that punishment suffering go together that God wouldn't cause us to suffer unless there was something to punish us for right you know and that's what we have to overcome yeah yeah yeah because there is that that temptation to think that it's I mean because in a certain sense we do deserve and any suffering we receive on some level we reserved it but in other ways it's not a vengeful punishment god that's seeking to enjoy later I think and I think that the the this old notion of nominalism there's no absolutes and god is arbitrary and one day he might be comforting me my suffering the next day he might be saying you know what you kind of deserved it and hit me over the head and I think that that comes from really a lack of understanding of who he is as a paragraph in 236 of the Catechism says that we know the theology we know the heart and the mystery of the Trinity but we also know the economy or plan of God and so we can come to know him and in the midst of our suffering there can be a trusting there can be a trusting but if we don't have that boy it's like it's kind of like a open gate you know the scriptures are pretty clear about this that the wages of sin their death that's right and the devil and and this definitive loss of God forever so I mean the pain that we experience is really a foreshadowing of the death that we inherit because of sin that this is what we have to take ownership of responsibility for I mean the guy who's suffering from cirrhosis of the liver may have made certain choices to become an alcoholic and so there's a connection just as between the mind and the body there is some connection some Nexus so in a way you pay for your misdeeds in the body but those misdeeds originate in the soul in the choices that you make it's all of a piece yeah and briefly when we think of suffering I mean for for Christians we often think of Christ's suffering you know what is possibly the greatest lesson we can learn in light of suffering for his in 30 second thought about this after the break but what I would say is the greatest lesson is the lesson of love and it's the lesson of Christ sacrificing himself and giving himself for us to redeem us and the question comes back well why didn't you why did you suffer why not write a check out right why not just wave your hand and say it's all forgiven it's all forgiven with a wink of the eye and the the truth of the matter is is that this is the heart of the Trinity love willing to suffer import oneself out and that gets into what we we talk about later which is well what's our role then as the body of Christ if he suffered why aren't I just living in a bowl of cherries now with all the benefits which is a modern popular American gospel that people can see on TV every weekend yeah yes I did stay with us on Franciscan University presents I'm a member of Rosa mystogan household here at Franciscan University and one of our charisms is redemptive suffering which means that our suffering is no longer meaningless but we can unite it to the cross when Jeff Cavins was talking about what Bishop Fulton sheen said on how we can't be prepared for death unless we practice for it and practice for it comes through dying to ourselves daily and taking up our cross like crook like Christ did it really struck home because that's how we can really speak to the world and say you know our faith is not a fairy tale it's real and through all the suffering that it might entail despite all of that it can be beautiful and it can be worth the while people recognize Franciscan University as being academically excellent and passionately Catholic we have the unique opportunity through our faculty members through our students to proclaim that academic excellence by reaching out in many different ways we also remain passionately Catholic in the way in which we are able to worship the way in which we are able to bring that love of Christ to others on a daily basis it's important for us to be able to embrace both welcome back to Franciscan University presents we've been talking with Jeff Cavins about his latest books when you suffer biblical keys to hope and understanding Jeff let's go back to the beginning you know is there a connection historically with Adam and Eve and the fall and what we suffer today and in our lives today sure there is a connection and and like so many things in our faith we go back to the first few chapters of Genesis and we see in Cornel form the play in the plot and and so forth and at the very beginning you know Adam has given this task of guarding and taking care of the garden he has his wife and and he's told what really that you you can eat of any tree but this tree of the knowledge of good and evil you can't eat of it and the day you eat of it you will die well they eat of it death sets in and in suffering is a result of sin it is a result of sin clearly but right away we see that God attaches meaning to their suffering so Eve gives birth to a child she experiences labor pain but out of that labor pain was she loved her husband the result of the love is a child right but that child comes into the world through pain so we learned this early lesson that out of suffering comes fruitfulness and Adam works in the field sweats the thorns and so forth and out of that comes bread so right away we see that that there's almost a remedial course that they go into where God said I you missed something in an earlier decision here and you may have had to suffer you may have had to stand against the the the enemy but you you chose the creature rather than a creator you lost your trust in me pride entered again this is the result but I got a plan already and ultimately that plan is mentioned you know in genesis 3:15 and that ultimately that plan will bring victory but it will bring a bruising to the seed of the woman but the enemy will we crush interesting you know there is a transparent overlay in other words I want to kind of build on what you said supplement but not to subtract because when he said on the day you either you'll surely die in Genesis 2:17 you know the serpent turns around says you won't die and when they don't die you know he kind of wondered because he could have said on the day you eat of it you'll begin to die you will be sentenced to death you'll deserve to die but he says on the day you eat it you'll surely die I think the key to verse 17 is backing up ten verses to verse 7 where God breathed in the man's nostrils the breath of life in this so he became a living being because the life of man was not just breathing oxygen like the other animals it was breathing the the breath of God's Spirit the spirit of divine life divine adoption and so if that's the case there's a mystery here of faith in life there's life that's natural and human but then there's a life that's divine and supernatural and and when they when they committed this sin which first John 5 16 and 17 would say a sin unto death we translate that mortal sin but it's a sin unto fana toss it's the same term in the Greek translation the day you eat what you'll surely die so they lost not human life but they did lose divine life which isn't less of a death it's a far greater death they in a certain sense and it entered a pact with the devil to obey Him and to commit suicide spiritual suicide and then all of the other forms of death catch up but I think this is why Trent and the Catechism both identify original sin as the death of the soul and then the death of the body ensues gradually but this you know if you were to weigh this on a cosmic scale that's death yeah and and then all the other forms of death are sort of remedial or at least hopefully medicinal and and I think that mystery again shows us that you know entering into divine life eternally within the Trinity it's not Plan B and and and so there was a mystery of faith even before there was a mystery of iniquity and you know it takes a great deal of faith because even Adam I think had to end up going through the dark night of the senses and the soul if he had passed that test but all it'll have to speculate because we have a new Adam and he undergoes the same tests and in a garden as you point out you know the Garden of Gethsemane but he gives consent to obedience it ends up going to the right tree you know which is the crucifixion of the Tree of Life and the Eucharist is the fruit of the tree of life but I I think only when we read this in the light of Christ do we say AHA that makes sense that makes deep sense and that's what st. John Paul the second said he said you can only make sense out of suffering if you first understand the suffering of Jesus yes yes otherwise it is totally a mystery in loss but there is I think some healthy extent to which even non-christians can appreciate the point of pain because it reminds us that we're dependent and that failure to know his dependency upon God is what caused Adam to fall and the result of course is the loss of happiness illness and this journey into death and so every hurt every setback is a reminder that really nature is the enemy and if we're not cognizant of that nature will win and destroy us and so we have to reach for something more but that I think is the acknowledgement of one's creaturely condition I depend upon God and if if death is just Nature's Way of telling us you know really you should slow down then to be dependent upon grace upon God is the only way to overcome death to restore that that wholeness that Adam and Eve lost in the unpleasantness of the garden so death and pain can be sort of salutary they instruct us in the ways of brokenness yeah I still you know it when we look at Adam and Eve and God gave them that choice you know he was given an opportunity and you know he almost some people were wondering well 1 why did that choice get passed on to us and 2 why would God give them the ability to even make that choice wouldn't he want them just to be happy isn't it just the snap of his fingers and say you can't even choose to not be happy by by choosing the fruit of good and evil sure well it's it's the big risk you know God did not create Stepford children yeah from gramming exactly and we don't alternately we don't want Stepford Wives you know we want we want wise that choose us we want a bride that chooses us loves us makes a decision to move towards us the free will exactly and we're created in the image and likeness of God and and God created us we were created by God yes but we were created for God and to give ourselves to God and to enter into the life of the Trinity the very first paragraph of the Catechism brings it out you know that that God was a God was doing fine but he chose to create us and the goal was that he would come looking for us and he would adopt us and bring us in to the blessed life of the Trinity to experience that that life with him and that comes by a choice my wife did not show up under duress at the wedding day she made a choice to come and to love me and I made a choice and that bridegroom relationship is a reflection of God's relationship with with us you know we we often assume that when the tempter said you shall be like God that that the man and a woman gave consent to something that was just an illicit desire but the fact is if God made us in His image and likeness you know no one wants us to be like God more than God and yet the problem of course is as the Catechism puts it that we chose to be like God but without God therein lies the pride and the disobedience we wanted something that was eminently desirable but only if we were divinized only if God gave us what we lacked you know youyou said something very striking of early on about the relationship between God and Adam you insisted that it also included Eve and that he neglected Eve he abandoned her at her hour of most acute need he left her to the devices of the devil he ought to have been there to protect her he was only interested in himself that's right actually you know when you look at the exchange in Genesis 3 the devil is always using second person plural terms implying that he is there you know that his silence is damnable because you know at this point he might be thinking oh wait a second you know I I don't know I don't stand a chance and he didn't have a prayer he might have thought but that's exactly what he did have but didn't say you know you know if he had prayed oh he would have learned what our Lord taught us the greater love hath no man and the lay down his life for his beloved right right and he refused and he refuses so looking at scripture - looking looking at scripture go fast-forwarding a little bit from Adam and Eve are there other models from the scriptures from the Bible that we can use for men and women who have handled suffering have dealt with suffering sure well yes there are I mean we have obviously the Blessed Mother and the Blessed Mother is probably the best example of anyone outside of Christ who even from the beginning when you know a conception she was told that that you're gonna suffer as a result of this her yes meant openness to suffering in the future and and that's a great model for us and she shows us how to suffer and we have other models too we have Paul you know Paul was struggling with what he called a thorn in the side he says I entreated the Lord get rid of it three times yeah what kind of medication for this and the Lord answers back my grace is sufficient for you for power is perfected in weakness and st. John Paul said the same thing he said it's in the midst of weakness that the springs of divine power gush and let it gush forth right in there is this opposite of the way the world thinks that's right and though drives out weakness we have to remember it's not our perfected love it's love the perfection of which is is Christ that drives out fear and if we cling to Christ cleave to Christ then it's not as if we keep suffering it they but were able to permit him to enter into that suffering and together we were demon we sanctify it it becomes a setting for grace you know I have seen this as you have in life experience you know it was when my wife suffered miscarriages and entered into a darkness and grief God used that to open her up to the Blessed Virgin Mary and to the Catholic faith it was you know suffering in my dad's case in the last year of his life that just shattered decades of agnosticism and made him like a little child who learned how to pray as he said you know Scott on a prayer like you but I'm praying for the first time in my life and more recently my mother too through suffering it was just it opened up her heart not only to God in a way that we were like wow but to my sister into me and to others you know and it's a the school of suffering is what none of us can afford to drop out you know but all of us want to and yet God accomplishes so much more in her weakness than with our strength and success well if we're all enrolled in the same school and suffering some of us may not graduate and maybe you could tell us what do we need to advance to the next level well you know I know we've all we all have suffered and I think that in the early 2001 I think it was when I went through the problems with my neck it was it was it was very very very intense suffering you know to be honest with your life was good and before that life still is but I never suffered like that before and that became the school to draw me closer to Christ and and it answered it started to answer the question that I had you know I was a former Protestant pastor and I wrestled with certain scriptures and one of them which we should probably go a little deeper into his Colossians 124 which says you know Paul says I rejoice in my suffering well right there we weren't on the same page I rejoice in my suffering for your sake so we think I'm suffering I'm rejoicing this for your sake and I'm filling up in my body that which is lacking in the sufferings of Christ and I thought there must be a Greek word that doesn't mean what we think you know that's bad translation right right I'm thinking well did Jesus rise from the dead go to the Father and say I got to tell you something I only did ninety-eight percent I need Paul to make up a difference and so no obviously he didn't and that and that is the question and that a lot of the great teachers of the church had to answer saying agustin saint john paul ii what was lacking what was lacking if he paid the definitive price if he paid that ultimate price what could possibly be lacking in the sufferings of Christ and does that have anything to do with me and I would contend and I would argue that it does and that there is there is a lack of understanding among many Christians today about the intimacy in the link between the head in the body and the mission and suffering yeah that's it nutshell the idea is that not that Christ didn't suffer enough but what was lacking is the suffering of Christ loved as the head of the body has to be reproduced in all of the arms and legs and all of the members to Claudia in us it's lacking in us and we'll pick this up on the next segment of Franciscan University presents Jeff talks about how our suffering doesn't only have to be the really large things like suffering doesn't have to just be cancer or being paralyzed but instead it can be our everyday lives every time our day is not quite ideal that is an opportunity for us to suffer with Christ and to offer that suffering for those that we love when we encounter suffering in our lives we often treat it as a problem as something to be solved but it's really a mystery a mystery that were invited to enter into and the answer for our suffering isn't facts but it's a person as a person of Jesus Christ who invites us into his suffering he invites us to stand at the foot of the cross with him I am a communication arts major the president of film club and an editor for Francisco University presents it's really great to be able to work on Franciscan University presents because it is a national television show on EWTN and a lot of other schools you're not gonna have that kind of ability to put that on a resume when I graduate I know that I'm going to to be firm and sticking with my faith and you know going to daily Mass and if we confession and things like that because instead of just learning with my mind or just focusing on schoolwork I actually you know can grow with my whole person Franciscan University is academically excellent and passionately Catholic welcome back to Franciscan University presents this entire program springs forth from the very heart of Franciscan University in Steubenville Ohio our students are operating the camera and equipment we're here in the Communication Arts studio are our panelists are faculty here at Franciscan University Jeff in the last segment it really this is this is so pertinent to everybody out there nobody can avoid it no matter what they do no matter how much money they have whatever their position in life but you talked about how we make up for what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ and I think that's the crux of the Catholic understanding of of suffering but but let's let's go deeper into how do we live this in our daily life as a Christian sure what does this really mean because is there any because we've talked about it but is there real meaning is their purpose and suffering and the quick answer is yes there is meaning in our suffering because we are in Christ and Christ brought meaning to suffering here that is deep meaning Christ suffering for us and I think it gets back to first of all you've got to look at the relationship between the mystical body the church and the head that this is not a decapitated head off doing his own thing and we're simply learning about him but suffering is not just acknowledging that there's meaning but it's a participation in his mission and his work therefore we are we are connected some groups of people today that our audience are familiar with would say he paid it all he did everything he is the healer he is the the counselor he's the intercessor he's the judge he died for our sins yeah and all we do is we receive we receive that's a nice position I've lived alone by faith alone it's a nice position to be a no big problem is it's not biblical yeah Peter mentions over and over you will share in his glory if you suffer with him so the Catholic view the biblical view I would say is that yes he did all of that but as the bride and the groom the head in the body he shares everything in his in his mission with us for example there is one intercessor yet he shares his intercessory role with us he opens the door to the father yet he gives us a fatherly role with priests in the family he is the judge but we will be participating and he also suffered for our sin and now he says I'm gonna give you an opportunity to participate in this suffering that's the term that's the key because you know the razor's edge is it's not substitutionary primarily it's participatory if it were substitutionary then he suffers he dies so we don't have to and yet we still do why well it's because it wasn't substitutionary I mean he is a substitute for Adam who failed but he does so as a new Adam in whom we participate and it's that notion of participation that Paul and Peter are always getting us back to you know likewise not just Peter but in Romans 8 verse 17 you know all of this good stuff about Abba Father the spirit you know groaning the spirit you know within our hearts telling us that were children of God provided we suffer with him in order that we may be glorified with him and you can take it even to the to the extent of did he die for you he did then why does he tell me to pick up a cross that's right yeah I thought it was done there is something wonderfully up and even I think infinitely elastic about Christ he is so intimately inclusive of everything else he wants to embrace and encompass the entire universe I'm reminded of a beautiful line from Romana Gardini who says in the experience of a great love everything that happens becomes an event related to that love and what love could be greater than that of Christ he is the incarnation of love and so if we're joined to him we ought not to be surprised if he invites us to share to participate in that very love he creates that space and welcomes us into that space but it means we have to put on Christ we have to be an extension and if he says to us go into all the world and preach the gospel well we can look at it as okay my role now is the churches I'm just gonna go out and Yap right I'm gonna go out and just tell everybody about it but it's more than that like you said it's a complete participation you his life at every level so I look at that and I said well then what's my role what is my role in my role he gives me st. John Paul the second says he makes room in his suffering for us to participate and he gives us I love this word a particle of the infinite treasure of God's redemptive suffering he gives you had a particle I got a particle you got it but we all got a particle and we can even use this on loved ones you know you quote margarita du port all who speaks of the sacred commerce that is not a contract between God and us out of the marketplace you know this for that it's a covenant it is a sacred family bond and so the sacred comma Commerce has this coinage of love you know and when you look at a coin you know you might say what's that building well you turn it over okay it's Lincoln uh-huh that's explained and there's there's a sense in which there are two sides of the coin because on the one hand suffering without love is is vain I mean suffering without love is unendurable it's meaningless and yet on the other hand love without suffering is warm fuzzy feelings a bowl of cherries that kind of thing so just as suffering is what proves that love is genuine and perfection purifies that love love turns around and really transform suffering into sacrifice it transforms pain into passion and not just in some theoretical or idealistic sense you know it's concretize in christ you know before he suffers at Calvary on Friday he is the Eucharist he's instituting where he is giving his life before he loses it or as rat's air would put it you know he he turns suffering and death into a prayer into the holiest sacrifice of all that surpasses the animal offerings and again not just for him so that we don't have to but we receive that cup of blessing precisely so that we can enter Gethsemane and carry the cross yeah and let's get a little practical sure you know when we talk about sorry but by thinking about the people who are suffering right now and some of them very substantially who are listening to us watching us right now whether from your own experience or just the wisdom you've gained what do we do with our suffering what is it what is the church what is that where's Christ asked us well we are we are asked to st. john paul ii says that not only did Christ's suffering redeem our souls and our but it redeems suffering itself in other words suffering has new meaning after the cross now and if we are in Christ and we attach ourselves to Christ and were in him yes and we're we are that bride our suffering is different so by an act of the will we say lord I offer this all the way from less than an ideal day to this amazing accident that I just went through or the loss of a loved one I give you this suffering I join it to the cross our suffering becomes redemptive and I got a little example in fact I remember when I was going through my tough time you and I spoken off a lot and one night to be honest with you I couldn't take it anymore with the pain in my neck and I'll be more honest with you I don't think men are good suffers I think our wives you know he's projecting but I but I have suffered I went through three of his classes 20 years but but but one night I woke up I went downstairs and suffering physical suffering has a way of wearing you down right pushing you into the ground you're nothing it's not gonna get better life doesn't have meaning and and you can believe that or not i sat on the couch house crying I said God please I said just how do I do this how do I offer it up I know this but how do I do it there's got to be something clever there's got to be the you know a revelation here and I felt like the Lord was speaking to me and he gave me a phrase which a shoe company borrowed and took made a lot of money and that is just do it and I said okay and I went upstairs to my girls bedroom they were sleeping there they don't wake up easy I went up there and I knelt down with my arm hurting I was crying knelt down next to my daughter and I raised my hand I just said God I said for my daughter for her I offer up my suffering for her for her salvation for vocation I offer this up for her Lord I love her and all of a sudden I put my head down on the pillow next to her and all the sudden this joy rose up inside of me that I had never experienced before as I realized I was loving my daughter the way Christ loves me I entered into deep into a an intimate loving mystery that Saint John Paul the second says you can't teach this in the objective you can't take a class from from dr. Hahn and and after I go I get it I totally get it it's a vocation yeah you come to reality come follow me and that's where you get it and that's why I'm not a saint but that's why some of the Saints to say Lord thank you yeah because they found something that people on the outside find a mystery yeah I mean and that's that that's the offering it up that's you know we we use it I use it sometimes in my house and you you reference how your mom used it iams would say just you know to just to stop your complaining you know just offer it up but there really is so much power in that and you know only sometimes it's easy to think about it beforehand and sometimes you know afterwards you know oh I should have done that so to offer it up is is an active passionate right verb you know what you just explained to turns people from victim psychology I mean there is a sense in which Jesus is a victim but there's a deeper sense in which he's the victor and so when do you accept and when you rejoice and when you give thanks and when you unite it to loved ones who are suffering and even sometimes the people out there who aren't necessarily loved by others you know that's the victory you know there is victimhood but even more there is that victory and I would go a good I would add to that that the cross is a mystery to the world in fact it's foolishness to the world for us it's it's it's it's it's great and think about it for a minute how different we are we just celebrate every year the triumph of the Cross Feast of the triumph of the cross and think about for a second the Messiah the Son of God is beaten he is mocked he is stripped they nailed him to would publicly he is dying he dies and we call this triumph yeah we call this Friday gooood Ituri there's a passage in Cicero where he tells his countrymen you must never think of the cross crucifixion is so brutal so ignominiously should ever think about it so shameful and you're right I mean the founder of our religion was nailed to this cross and it becomes a symbol of liberation triumph a triumph and so they say well if he says now you pick up your cross I said well I don't want to triumph well this gets back to though a son he learned obedience through what he suffered because it wasn't simply obedience to 613 commandments that you add up in the Torah it is you know what what the Christ team is all about he became obedient even unto death even death on the cross yeah you know but again not just to endure to show you know but to endure to transform our crosses because our meager afflictions would have no redemptive power you know in and of themselves but when you're the United to Christ they take on something they they they have this capacity so he's not exempting us from suffering he's enabling us to suffer but he also in douse our suffering were the kind of divine capacity a redemptive value that it would never have it i sell-- I like to call that heavenly cash the example that you cite of your daughter that is so moving and in a way I'm reminded of two people in love they stand before each other and they're really entitled to ask the other how far are you prepared to go to demonstrate your love will you go all the way to the cross for me and if they can't say yes then it's really not harsh dreadful love as Dostoevsky reminds us it's loving dreams it's sentimental it's soft syrup it's not sacrificial and I think you illustrate by that example the extent to which you're prepared to suffer for those you love and that's really that's salvific and I can tell you in the midst of it there was a happiness yeah so what are some helps or some aids some things that might help us or in the midst of our suffering well you know there's a there's a lot and there's a lot of aids what one is is that in the mass when we're the ultimate sacrifice takes place were invited to join him and I love what one Bishop said one time Brosco is said he said that it's the great exchange it's the great exchange and we bring our bread in our wine and he gives us his body and blood and we bring our week's triumph and our weeks you know suffering and he changes everything right and that's the wonderful place so I would say be aware in Mass about the great exchange as bishop fresco it says so well said another thing is that that study the lives of the saints because these are people who graduated from this world they've got something to say about it mother Teresa who said and the world is giving her awards and she's speaking at Harvard and she's changing the world and Nobel PA thing you know and in the middle of it she's suffering she had something to say about a 50 years of darkness yes we felt yeah yeah yeah and triumph jongmin's amen stay with us for the final segment of Franciscan University presents just because you go through suffering doesn't mean God has abandoned you and it's actually a sign of favor because we're able to offer that suffering up in union with Christ for the salvation of souls when I was working in a medical office there was a young man young father in his mid 30s and he was suffering from excruciating back pain he was always coming in and one of the times he came in I could tell he was suffering more and I had a chance to ask him privately like do you believe in God do you believe in Christ and he said yes I do I'm like well Jesus died on the cross for us right and he suffered right he's like yes he's like well just as Jesus's suffering is valuable your suffering is valuable and you can offer up that suffering as a prayer for your children you can offer it for whatever it is that you need in as I said that the light bulb went on and it changed his whole face welcome back to Franciscan University presents our final segment we've been talking to author and speaker Jeff Cavins about suffering regions can you start us off yeah I think if life is a journey that I think is a very apt image an effective metaphor and if life is a journey and it's pockmarked by pain marked by episodic bouts with misery seeming meaninglessness then surely I'm further along in the journey than any of you so I remember the 1960s that's when I came of age not only do I remember them I was there I experienced them and I'll never forget the first philosophy course I I i took this scrawny scruffy guy came in not even wearing a tie and perhaps not even shoes and he had this this book bag and he tossed it down on the table and he turned to us these cowering freshmen who had never had a philosophy course and he said okay you have two choices you can either be a pig satisfied or you can be Socrates dissatisfied and you've got five minutes to make up your minds we decided yeah we want to be Socrates and he said you have chosen wisely but in the end it will kill you and suffering is like that in the end it will kill you but if you love anything you're gonna suffer I mean CS Lewis says even if your love extends only as far as a dog that dog is gonna break your heart because you love the dog Socrates loved the truth and it got him executed in the end so whatever you love that entails suffering and if God is pure love then imagine the extent of his suffering the depth the incomprehensible depth of his suffering and it goes on eternally from inside the Trinity this love is a pay floss and open to the an openness to the other in suffering and so when he steps outside the Trinity to create and redeem a world he enters into its suffering and your book I think illustrates so well the principle that it's possible to draw grace and strength from suffering if you constantly refer back to this redemptive figure this ragged figure who moves in the back of our minds Jesus the Christ and because of his suffering we're able to bear it thank you regis scott you know this is where a little theology goes a long way and in really good theology in some ways i think is the best way to enter into suffering and yet as Louis points out on the problem of pain you know you can theologizing but suffering until you begin to suffer you know and then the lights go off and I think it's helpful to realize that because though we know resurrection awaits us we know there is Easter Sunday after the Good Friday nevertheless we have the physical pain that we've been discussing we also have the agony by watching our loved ones go through sickness and pain and death but I think there's another kind of pain that is also redemptive in a sort of unexpected or counterintuitive way and that is the alienation that we feel from our loved ones the estrangement that we have as parents from our kids I've gone through this in different ways with all six of our kids thank God we are now in a sense really United like we never were before but not in spite of the estrangement there's a sense in which God took me as a father through my oldest my firstborn in his teen years and showed me look Scott this is how I was fathering Israel this is how I father you your willful your wayward you know and Wow and the more I allowed God to father me the more I was able to enter into the willful waywardness of my son and crawl back into his cave and reconnect with him like God had done with me and then that set up a chain reaction with all of the kids because there were different caves there were different sources of elimination but I think so many people who watch this just think yeah but my divorce yeah but my kids my in-laws or whatever and I think that is the deepest and most christ-like crus formerly where you're dying for people you love who have turned on you and yet you enter into the heart of Jesus and Mary I think more sometimes that way and in a little theology goes a long way but you have to pray or other you know it just stays in the head it doesn't go down to the heart but your book by the way thank you for writing it and I hope it gets read by a lot of people because all of us need it yeah I know I do it yeah well I would say you know kind of a practical wrap up for me is that you know a lot of people think that well I don't know theology well I don't know the Bible really well or the Catechism really well and and I'm stuck with the suffering and since I don't know all of that as you were mentioning a little theology goes a long way here if I don't know all of that what am I going to do and if you look to the Saints the Saints were the Saints a lot of them were not didn't have book knowledge they had cross knowledge and they had an intimacy with God where they learned this not on a page but on the pavement and and I would suggest suggest that people do what the Saints did and if you are suffering in your heart or physically just do it do what just offer up your suffering in union with Christ knowing he has redeemed your suffering it has become valuable and you have now of a treasure a particle of the infinite treasury of God's Redemption and you can do something with it a lot of men feel like well I can't teach my children this or that but you know what this suffering can be offered up for your children if you're worried about your children and where they're gonna go don't waste the opportunity the you know the archbishop full or Bishop Fulton sheen said that the hospitals are way filled with wasted suffering don't waste your suffering use it for practical love things you loved ones and your pastor for your own holiness and so forth and the ultimate fear is death the ultimate fear is death and I love what what are what Bishop Fulton sheen said I love it he said the reason were so afraid of death is because we have not practiced for it and and he said if you were to practice by mortifying the flesh picking up your cross dining to yourself daily as Paul did when you come to that final hour been there done that many times start practicing amen you know it's not just suffering that God needs to heal us from its the fear of suffering that he needs to heal us from I mean she and put it that way also beautiful well if you've enjoyed today's segments this has just really been awesome when you suffer you want to get Jeff's book but for for just asking we have a free handout for you it's it's chapter 9 10 things to do in the midst of suffering this is a gonna be a huge help to you great practical insights you know 10 areas that you can really go deeper in in the midst of suffering you can get it at faith and reason calm or just for calling us just to kind of re emphasize Jeff's last point we need to practice we need to practice suffering even in the smallest of ways maybe it's it's it's the the sugar that you take out of your coffee or whatever it might be the little things that will teach us how to embrace the bigger ones in our lives because those big-ticket sufferings will be coming and and when you're in the midst of your suffering get out of yourself you know I think that that in this year of mercy this Jubilee of Mercy were called to suffer with others and in your suffering if you don't know what to do with it serve others you know both by offering but by being with them and lastly the if we're still struggling father Benedict Groeschel gave this advice at a funeral once he said you know sometimes we we wonder you know why God why and he says that's the wrong question to ask the question is to ask what what Lord do you want me to do with this suffering how to how to deal with this how to grow how to come closer to you those are the things that I think we need to really look at and go deeper during this year Franciscan University's mission is to educate to evangelize and send forth joyful disciples and I want to invite you to be a member and a partner with us in this mission maybe it's by taking classes here on our campus in Steubenville Ohio or maybe through our online programs or maybe you could join us at one of our dynamic summer conferences that are just awesome or on some of our pilgrimage just going to the holy shrines throughout the world or going to faith and reason dot-com a place to be equipped and educated and inspired for the New Evangelization until next time may the Lord bless you and keep you to download the free handout on today's topic go to faith and reason com email your request for the handout - presents at Franciscan ddu at faith in reason comm you can also purchase past episodes of Franciscan University presents or request today's free hand out and purchase past programs by calling 888 three three three zero three eight one that's eight eight eight three three three zero three eight one or call seven four zero two eight three six three five seven you you

Channel: Franciscan University of Steubenville

Views: 18,691

Rating: 4.8984127 out of 5

Keywords: Franciscan University, Steubenville, Ohio, Catholic, college, Franciscan University of Steubenville, Franciscan University of Steubenville (College / University), Franciscan University Presents, EWTN, Eternal Word Television Network, FaithAndReason.com, Faith And Reason, Michael Hernon, Dr. Regis Martin, Dr. Scott Hahn, Jeff Cavins, When You Suffer: Biblical Keys for Hope and Understanding, suffering, lent, loss, pain

Id: NEIJIlHgzUU

Length: 58min 30sec (3510 seconds)

Published: Tue May 10 2016