(Catholic) Scott Hahn vs. (Protestant) Bowman Salvation Debate #1 of 3

thank you and good morning since I won the coin toss rosette lost the coin toss and I'm going first let me begin by trying to explain what I understand us to be doing here this morning this is being billed as a dialogue between Catholics and Protestants and indeed it is but and I say this with some regret we are not representative of all Catholics or of all Protestants today both Catholicism and Protestantism are extremely diverse religious communities with seemingly little unity on either side let's set aside for just a few moments the question of the official teachings of our respective wings of the Christian religion the fact is that most Catholics and most Protestants today do not have a firm sound grasp of the Christian faith the divine inspiration authority of Scripture is denied in churches seminaries and Catholic and Protestant universities across this country and throughout the Western world the historic Christian confession of Jesus Christ as the Incarnate son of God who died on the cross for our sins and rose from the dead is increasingly denied by theologians and ignored by Turks goers many churches today there is greater interest in social issues and political causes of the left or the right than in spiritual issues or the cause of Christ now all six of the Catholic and Protestant speakers that you will be hearing today are passionately concerned to turn this situation around each of us wishes to call the Church of Jesus Christ back to its roots back to the faith once we're all delivered to the Saints and witnessed by the Creed's of the early church through professor samples and father Pacwa for example later this afternoon are going to be disagreeing about the role of tradition and church authorities they agree and all of us agree that Scripture is the unerring absolutely authoritative and life-transforming word of god dr. Logan and father krischell are going to express some disagreements about the full significance of the Eucharist but they and all of us agree that in the celebration of the Eucharist the risen Lord Jesus Christ is really present in and with his people that Jesus Christ is alive and living in his people in his church dr. Hahn and I are going to be disagreeing this morning about justification the relationship between faith and works and grace but we both agree as do all the other speakers that Jesus Christ is the only savior of the world and it is only by the mercy and grace of God in Christ that we can enjoy eternal life in God's forever family so as we get into some of the specific differences between Catholics and Protestants I would ask you to keep in mind this considerable common ground that we share subject in which I've been asked to speak this morning is salvation and more particularly justification as soon as the subject is brought up a question arises in acknowledging that we have differences about the doctrine of salvation are we saying that those who differ with us can't be saved in order to defend and proclaim the gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ as we understand it must we as Protestants regard Catholics as lost and should Catholics return the favor now the Catholic Church's teaching on this question is quite clear according to the Second Vatican Council which met in the 1960s Protestants are separated brethren Protestants or Christians who are missing the full riches of the church according to Catholicism but Protestants are Christians and they can and may cases are in fact saved by the way I should tell you that not all Catholics seem to have gotten this message I once got a letter from a Catholic who insisted on the authority of his church that all Protestants were going to help I wrote back to him and pointed out that the Catholic Church says otherwise and then he wrote back to me and he said well maybe you're not all going to hell but you're all going to purgatory for a really long time that's probably my one funny story for the morning I have to admit that some Protestants have more or less the same opinion of Catholics there is a strong and vocal segment of conservative Protestantism well represented in this country that regards the Roman Catholic Church as a false church and Catholics as simply lost without qualification or if they admit that there might be Catholics who are saved then they're not true Catholics they're not real Catholics they're really Protestants they just don't know it I'm sure this is insulting to Catholics and it's also simply not true in my opinion the rain' reason for taking this opinion this position is the belief which is sincerely held by many Protestants that the Catholic Church teaches a false gospel of salvation by works a gospel which no one can believe and be saved I wish I could give you a simple yes or no thumbs-up or thumbs-down to this question all Catholics are saved all Catholics are lost black or white I'm notorious for not giving such simple answers to such difficult questions in my opinion the situation is much more complicated than that on the one hand I have no doubt that there are many Christians in the Catholic Church who are just as much God's children just as much saved by the grace of God in Jesus Christ as I am I believe that my brother Scott Hahn is one of those persons Charles Hodge the great 19th century Calvinist theologian expressed this conviction with great clarity I quote Charles Hodge because he's writing over a hundred years ago and he can't be accused of giving in to the ecumenical spirit of the age Charles Hodge is no friend of the Roman Catholic Church adamantly opposed much of what the Roman Catholic Church taught but this is what he had to say indeed it as a matter of devout thankfulness to God that underneath the numerous Grievous and destructive errors of the Romish Church the great truths of the gospel are preserved the Trinity the true divinity of Christ true doctrine concerning his person as God and man in two distinct natures and one person forever salvation through his blood regeneration and sanctification through the Almighty power of the Spirit the resurrection of the body and eternal life our doctrines on which the people of God in that communion live and which have produced such saintly men as st. Bernard Fenelon and doubtless thousands of others who are of the number of God's elect every true worshipper of Christ must in his heart recognize as a Christian brother wherever he may be found anyone who loves worships and trust the Lord Jesus Christ as God manifest in the flesh and the only Savior of men I think hot strikes a balance here that I find refreshing in today's religious climate on the one hand Hodge acknowledges in a very warm fashion as a Christian anyone for Catholic Protestant Orthodox or otherwise who loves and trusts Jesus Christ as their great God and Savior on the other hand Hodge candidly points out that there are some Grievous and destructive errors in Roman Catholic teaching as he understands it and this is what we need to do in our dialogue today is to be honest about our disagreements as well as honest enough to see where we actually agree the fact is that bad doctrine can have devastating consequences now we are saved by Jesus Christ not by having the right doctrine about how we are saved by Jesus Christ there's no theology exam at the pearly gates good thing to I think most of us who are Christians would fail but a misleading doctrine nevertheless can mislead now if the Catholic Church's doctrine of salvation and justification is in important respects unbiblical and misleading as Protestants historically have affirmed in his I am convinced is in fact the case then there is good reason to be concerned about the salvation of those Catholics who as a result of these misleading teachings may miss the gospel so I don't want to minimize that concern that Protestants historically have had because I share it again now let me repeat that we are not saved by having the right doctrine salvation Protestants and Calvinists often fall into this category I should say as one who is one Protestants who presume that they are saved because they affirm the right doctrine of salvation are in big trouble themselves you think you're going to be saved because you can pass that theology exam you're very much mistaken we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ not by our adherence to a creed or a confession but to Jesus Christ still the Scriptures teach us doctrine for a reason it's incumbent upon us to pay attention to sound doctrine especially as it relates to the gospel of salvation lest we mislead others or ourselves now the Protestant doctrine of salvation that I'm going to be defending this morning is not the opinion of one man say Martin Luther or John Calvin as much in respect as I hold those gentlemen nor is it some general vague idea about what the gospel is that is shared by Bible believing Protestants but rather I propose to defend the doctrine of salvation that is common to the historic confessions of the major Protestant denominations dating from the 16th 17th and 18th centuries I limited to that period because after that time Protestantism is infected with a mortal disease known as liberalism which denies the supernatural character of Jesus Christ and of the work of salvation that Jesus Christ does in which denies the reliability of Scripture a disease by the way which is also infected many segments of Roman Catholicism now these historic Protestant confessions are of various denominations Lutheran confessions such as the Augsburg confession of 1530 the Heidelberg catechism 1563 the formula of Concord 1576 the reformed or Calvinistic confessions especially the Belgic confession 1561 ii Helvetic confession 1566 most you probably haven't even heard of some of these and admittedly my favorite the Westminster Confession of faith of 1647 the Anglican Church has exactly the same gospel the same doctrine of salvation in the thirty-nine articles of the Church of England dating from 1570 1 and you find basically the same teaching in the Methodist Articles of Religion sometime later in 1784 the difference is among these confessions on the doctrine of salvation are so minor that they're probably of interest only to theologians such as myself and dr. Hahn now there's a great deal to be discussed in looking at the doctrine of salvation and of justification I'm going to bring out four key points that are found throughout these confessions sometimes more elaborately explained in other cases but consistently these four points emerge as crucial to the Protestant understanding of the doctrine of salvation and specifically of justification first point is that we are saved solely christo that's Latin for by Christ alone we are saved by Christ alone according to the Belgian confession it must need to follow either that all things which are requisite to our salvation are not in Jesus Christ or if all things are in him then those who possess Jesus Christ through faith have complete salvation in him therefore for any to assert that Christ is not sufficient but that something more is required besides him would be to grossa blasphemy for hints it would follow that Christ was but half a savior and that's the Belgic confession now of course roman catholics and presidents agreed Jesus Christ is the savior but what is distinctive about the Protestant understanding of Christ's rule as Savior is that specifically with regard to justification most clearly Protestants insist that our righteousness our right standing with God is entirely and solely the righteousness of Jesus Christ that Christ alone is our righteousness and that this means exactly what it sounds like it means that our righteousness that is our personal moral uprightness our personal righteous character our own righteous good works or attitudes really are not the basis for our standing as children of God as forgiven by God as accepted by God in His mercy into his family a biblical text that perhaps brings out the point that Protestants are trying to make is Philippians chapter 3 verses 7 through 9 Paul the Apostle speaking about giving up his confidence in his own righteousness as a Jew under the law says but whatever things were gain to me those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ more than that I count all things to be lost in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord for whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them but rubbish in order that I may gain Christ and may be found in him not having a righteousness of my own derived from the law but that which is through faith in Christ the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith historically Protestants understand Paul here to be saying that the righteousness which I enjoy in my relationship to God through Jesus Christ is Christ's righteousness imputed to me or reckoned to me or placed to my accounts credited to me as my righteousness even though I did not originate it I did not produce it and I can't even live up to it in this life so that is what Protestants historically have understood in their affirmation that salvation and justification are by Christ alone second Protestants affirm that we are saved and justified by grace alone you often hear the Latin phrase Sola gratia by grace alone now getting Roman Catholic theology is directly salvation is also understood to be the work of God's grace and I'm sure that Ascot and other products would even go so far as to say by grace alone but the way Protestants understand this confession of salvation by grace alone is distinctive we understand the Roman Catholics to teach maybe we'll get some clarification on this but we understand the Roman Catholic Church historically to teach that the reason why grace saves us is at least in part the due to the fact that grace is able to produce in us good works of our own not good works that we do in our own power but good works that indeed are our good works and that is at least in part on the basis of the reality of those good works that we can be considered saved Protestants on the other hand hold that if we are saved by grace alone then our works not just the works we did before we became Christians or as non-christians but the works that we perform even as believers in Jesus Christ imbued by God's grace these works contribute nothing to our standing with God they do not contribute to our salvation they are instead the fruit of a saved relationship with God the second how that a confession for example says and I quote for we are saved by grace and by the benefit of Christ alone works do necessarily proceed from faith but salvation is improperly attributed to them which is most properly ascribed to grace then the confession goes on to quote Romans 11:6 in Romans 11:6 Paul has this to say if you have a Bible okay if you turn to them these passages with us if it is by grace it's no longer on the basis of works otherwise grace is no longer grace now that last part is crucial to understand the Protestant concern about the Catholic view of salvation Protestants are concerned and not just about the Catholic view of salvation but various Protestant deform'd understandings as well that introduced work somehow into the equation as part of what constitutes us as saved people Protestants historically and it's in their confessions have said if you do that grace is no longer grace again we're not denying the importance of works we're not denying the necessity of works as the result of a truly saved relationship with God in Jesus Christ but we're saying that works do not contribute to that standing works do not support that standing otherwise grace would no longer be grace perhaps the most famous New Testament passage quoted to make this point is Ephesians 2 verses 8 through 10 Fijians chapter 2 verses 8 9 and 10 some people of course in their hurry only quote 8 and 9 that I'm going to do all three verses here for by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God not as a result of works that no one should boast for we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them the Protestant understands this passes to be saying this we are saved by grace through faith unto good works and if you get that order out of whack Protestants are concerned that you will detract from the grace of God distract people from the grace of God in their lives and people will begin to trust in their works rather than in God's grace again we are saved by grace by grace alone by the way the word alone isn't here but it's clearly implied come back to that point later we are saved by God's grace exclusively we do not contribute to it but that grace is not just applied indiscriminately to the entire population of earth it's applied to those people who have faith because God creates that bathed in them by his gift it's a gift of God even the faith is the work of God's grace and this grace does not leave people unchanged it produces in them the desire and the ability to do the good works which God created them to do and if those good works do not show up one has every right to question the genuineness of the alleged faith so we are saved by Christ alone and we're saved by grace alone third Protestants affirm that we are justified and saved Sola fiday by faith alone or through faith alone sometimes it's put this is probably the most controversial and contentious aspect of the Protestant view of justification from a Roman Catholic perspective in affirming that we are justified through faith alone again Protestants are not saying that the justified person need not do any works we're not saying that a person who claims to have faith that has no works is saved the Westminster Confession of faith puts it this way faith thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness is the lone instrument of justification yet it is not alone in the person justified but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces and is no dead faith but worketh by love end of quote so the Westminster Confession faith which is representative of all the Protestant confessions on this point affirms that we are justified through faith alone that is faith is the only instrument of our coming into that standing with God where we are considered right before God it is our faith which connects us to God in that way and only fake but this faith through which we are justified is never alone but it is always accompanied by all the other saving graces of God in Jesus Christ including the new birth including the indwelling of the Holy Spirit the beginning of the work of sanctification conforming us to the image of God's beloved son and so forth all of these things accompany the grace of justification so if you have heard Protestants that it isn't necessary for a saved or justified person to produce good works it's recommended but not required you've been listening to a deformed interpretation of the Protestant gospel now the Heidelberg catechism to reinforce this point says that it is impossible that those who are implanted into Christ by true faith should not bring forth fruits of righteousness in other words faith doesn't merely acknowledge intellectually that Jesus is the Savior faith implants us into Christ faith rests on Christ trusts in Christ I think there's a lot of misunderstanding between Catholics and Protestants on this point it's very easy for both sides and I'm not saying this is only a misunderstanding on one side to hear faith alone and think well that means all you have to do is subscribe to the doctrine all you have to do is mentally agree that Jesus died on the cross for your sins just sign on the dotted line that's all it takes that's not what Protestants mean and that's not what Protestants understand Paul or other New Testament writers to mean when they talk about being saved or justified on the basis of faith rather we understand faith to be a commitment to Jesus Christ as our Savior a faith that is a commitment of the heart a trust a reliance placing our confidence our hope in him alone now folks if you have that kind of faith you're going to want to do what Christ wants you to do you're going to want to obey Christ you will follow Christ as a disciple and not merely intellectually agree oh yeah he seizes the Son of God yeah I know that I was taught that in Sunday school but rather you will be living your life for your Savior so the Protestant view of justification through faith alone is not easy believe ISM it is not just say after me repeat the magic words and on your way you may go it is rather stop living your life as if you were God as if you could justify yourself by your own good works and put your faith in the only one who can save you in Jesus Christ give your life to Him Protestants when they say that need to be sure that they mean it literally that we are in fact entrusting our souls to Jesus Christ again on this doctrine of what faith means the Westminster Confession of faith says the principle acts of saving faith are accepting receiving and resting upon Christ alone for justification sanctification and eternal life by virtue of the covenant of grace so really from a Protestant perspective the whole doctrine of salvation and of justification flows from the single affirmation Jesus Christ son of God Savior the fourth point is that we are brought to faith and sustained in faith primarily now not exclusively so this is not another only this is this is it primarily through the Ministry of the word now in Roman Catholic theology and in Roman Catholic practice historically it is primarily the sacraments through which faith is created and sustained in the life of the Catholic the understanding is that the word of course must also be there but primarily it is the sacraments justifying grace is imparted in Roman Catholic thought in baptism and it is sustained through the sacraments especially if penance and the Eucharist now although Protestants affirm the validity and the importance of baptism and the Eucharist in the Christian life and worship and we affirm that they do help to sustain our faith and to to help us develop in our faith Protestants affirm that it is primarily the Word of God which creates and sustains faith in the life of a Christian a scripture text that's perhaps a a very popular one in this point is Romans 10 Romans chapter 10 and verse 17 so faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of Christ that is the word about Christ the message of salvation in Jesus Christ King James Version says the Word of God but of course it really is the same thing because that's what the Word of God is about it's about Christ so faith comes from hearing and hearing by the Word of God the word of Christ so Protestants historically affirm as again we find in the Westminster Confession of faith that the grace of faith is ordinarily wrought by the Ministry of the word by which also and by the administration of the sacraments in prayer it is increased and strengthen I've only gotten through about half my presentation and I have about four minutes left but I do want to say a few closing words about the biblical basis of this doctrine of justification you'll find the primary text for Protestants on this point in Paul's epistle to the Romans now we're probably going to get into this a little bit more in the dialogue part but the Epistle of Paul to the Romans is Paul's magnum opus it is his major work of exposition of his gospel he makes that quite clear at the beginning and the end of the book and so it is natural to turn to this book by the New Testaments greatest theologian and look at what he has to say about the doctrine of salvation I cannot even begin to get into all of what I'd like to on this point but let me draw your attention to a couple of texts Romans chapter 1 verse 16 for I am not ashamed of the gospel for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes to the Jew first and also to the Greek for in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith as it is written but the righteous man shall live by faith from start to finish the Christian life is a life of faith and insofar as my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters understand and affirm that I count them as Christians but this is the critical point that I wish to emphasize here is that the gospel is a message of salvation for everyone who believes again not nearly intellectually agrees with the doctrine but who believes in Jesus Christ who trusts in Jesus Christ Romans 3:28 one of the most hotly debated texts between Catholics and Protestants Paul says for we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law may remember I mentioned Ephesians 2 says that we're saved by grace doesn't actually add the word alone but it's implied Protestants historically maintained the word alone is also implied here that we are justified by faith alone apart from works of the law now again that alone Protestants do not understand that alone to mean you don't have any good works to show for your faith what they mean is the justification is based on the faith not on the works the works flow from the life of faith one more passage I think I'm just about out of time and that is Romans four verses three through five what does the scripture say and this is about abraham abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness now to the one who works his wage is not reckoned as a favor but is what is due but to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly his faith is reckoned as righteousness so Paul is understood here by presence telling us stop trying to work your way into justification and start believing your way just as Abraham trusted God believed God and that was reckoned to him as righteousness thank you very much [Applause] Thank You Richie and thank you rob I'm very grateful for this dialogue I'm especially grateful that it is a dialogue and not a debate you might wonder what's the difference in a debate it's like this if I want your thoughts I'll give them to you where the dialogue is designed to be an exchange of ideas based upon diplomacy you might know how Reader's Digest defines diplomacy as the art of letting someone else have your own way so pray for spiritual diplomacy here in any case it's so important to hear from both sides before forming our judgment that reminds me of a story of a priest who was travelling late one night on a bus he was alone and then the door opened and this poor drunk stumbled in he sat down on the seat right in front of the priest picked up an old newspaper sat up straight moaned and groaned moment later he turned around and asked the priest he said father do you know what causes arthritis the priest couldn't resist the opportunity to set this slob straight yes too much drinking loose living carousing with degenerates that's what causes arthritis oh the drunk said I was just reading in the paper here that the Pope's got arthritis so one needs to be careful before forming judgments prematurely so instead of launching into a critique an assault or attack I'd like to build on the common ground that has been laid clearly and truthfully by Rob about faith and justification and then address the best way we can go about handling our differences we have heard that faith is our consent to God faith is our reception of God's life faith is my consent to God who opens himself to me and offers a covenant through Christ it's a lot like a marriage between two persons that's established by exchanging consent but can you a picture on the wedding day the bride's reaction when she hears the groom announce afterwards honey we were married by consent alone she'd probably wonder what does that mean on the one hand if my new groom simply means consent as opposed to coercion okay fine that's true of course and somewhat obvious a bit one-sided in the legal direction perhaps but no problem

Channel: Kathy Johnson

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Length: 37min 37sec (2257 seconds)

Published: Mon Jun 12 2017