♪ >> Doug: HELLO AND WELCOME ONCE AGAIN TO "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE" WHERE IDEAS COLLIDE AND FAITH AND REASON INTERACT. I'M DOUG KECK AND YOUR HOST COMING TO US FROM THE STUDIOS IN THE HEART OF EWTN IRONDALE, ALABAMA ON MOTHER ANGELICA WAY WHERE IT ALL BEGAN. TODAY, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT AND THE DISCERNMENT, PART ONE OF OUR TOPIC. AND SOMETIMES IT'S PART THREE BY THE TIME WE GET THROUGH EVERYTHING. THAT'S ONLY BECAUSE YOU SEND US SUCH GREAT QUESTIONS. EMAIL GREAT QUESTIONS TO US AT spitzersuniverse@ewtn.com. POST YOUR QUESTIONS ON THE FACEBOOK PAGE, JUST FOLLOW ALL OF THE INFORMATION RIGHT THERE ON YOUR SCREEN. NOW, WITH THAT ALL SAID, LET'S REJOIN FATHER SPITZER WE SAW HIM LAST WEEK AT THE WEST COAST STUDIOS CHRIST CATHEDRAL CAMPUS IN ORANGE COUNTY, CALIFORNIA. AND THIS IS A TOUGH HAUL FOR YOU TO GET FROM YOUR OFFICE TO OUR STUDIOS, IS THAT RIGHT? >> Father: YEAH, I HAVE TO COME DOWN AN ENTIRE FLOOR! LIKE I SAID, THEY SHOULD HAVE BUILT ME A FIREMAN'S POLE FROM MY OFFICE. >> AND YOU HAVE A GREAT LOVE FOR THE THREE STOOGES SO THAT WOULD BE A GREAT THING FOR YOU. YOU KNOW, YOU'RE LATE! AND JOAN COULD JUST PUSH A BUTTON AND YOU ARE THROWN RIGHT FROM YOUR CHAIR DOWN THE POLE TO RIGHT THERE. SO, LAST WEEK, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE EXAMEN PRAYER AND WE HAVE FOLLOWUP PRAYERS BEFORE WE GET INTO THE HOLY SPIRIT AND DISCERNMENT. LET'S GET STARTED. DEAR FATHER, I PRAY EVERY DAY, MOSTLY THE STANDARD PRAYERS CATHOLICS USE, LIKE, THE ROSARY AND OTHER COMMON PRAYERS. SOMETIMES I FEEL THAT I'M JUST BABBLING, EVEN THOUGH I TRY TO CONCENTRATE AND PAY ATTENTION. AM I REALLY PRAYING, AND DOES GOD REALLY PAY ATTENTION? THIS IS A FACEBOOK QUESTION. >> Father: YES, EXACTLY. THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION. AND THE ANSWER IS, YES, YES YOU ARE REALLY PRAYING. FIRST AND FOREMOST, YOU ARE CONSECRATING YOUR TIME TO THE LORD. AND THE LORD LOVES THE FACT THAT YOU ARE TAKING OUT YOUR TIME AND SPENDING IT WITH HIM AND BEING WITH HIM EVEN THOUGH SOMETIMES YOU ALMOST THINK THAT YOU ARE RAMBLING. THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS JUST RAMBLING. IF YOU ARE SPENDING TIME CONCERTEDLY WITH THE LORD, YOU ARE TRYING TO CONNECT WITH HIM, YOU ARE TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, GIVE HIM THE PRAISE THAT IS DUE, THEN THE LORD LOVES IT. AND OF COURSE, HE LOVES YOU ANY WAY. BUT HE LOVES YOU IN YOUR PRAYER AS WELL. YOU KNOW, I WOULD JUST SAY LAST WEEK, I WAS TALKING ABOUT A PRELUDE TO THE EXAMEN PRAYER WHICH YOU CAN USE WITH OTHER PRAYERS. BUT IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, I WANT TO REMIND YOU BECAUSE THIS MAY HELP YOU OR YOU MAY MAKE AN ENTIRE PRAYER SESSION OUT OF JUST USING THIS PRAYER. REMEMBER, IT ALWAYS STARTS OFF WITH, I MYSELF DO ALL THREE PERSONS OF THE TRINITY AND MARY. I WOULD SAY, HEAVENLY FATHER, I KNOW YOU ARE HERE. THAT'S THE FIRST THING. NUMBER TWO, I KNOW THAT YOU LOVE ME. NUMBER THREE, I KNOW THAT YOU ARE GUIDING ME. AND THEN JUST LISTEN. BECAUSE WHEN YOU SAY, I KNOW YOU ARE HERE, YOU ARE JUST OPENING YOURSELF, RIGHT, TO THAT. AND MAYBE WHEN YOU SAY A HAIL MARY OR OUR FATHER AFTER THAT, IT REALLY IS GOING TO CHANGE THAT PRAYER. SO, SOMETIMES INSTEAD OF SAYING, I GOT TO GET THROUGH THE WHOLE ROSARY, I WOULD DO THIS, MAYBE START OFF WITH JUST SAYING, HEAVENLY FATHER, I KNOW YOU ARE HERE. I KNOW YOU LOVE ME. I KNOW YOU ARE GUIDING ME. AND YOU LISTEN. AND MAYBE YOU CAN SAY THREE HAIL MARYS OF YOUR DECADE. LORD JESUS, I KNOW YOU ARE HERE. I KNOW YOU LOVE ME. I KNOW YOU ARE GUIDING ME. AND YOU LISTEN. AND WHEN YOU KIND OF, SOMETIMES TOO, DO THE SAME THING FOR THE HOLY SPIRIT. DO THE SAME THING FOR THE HAIL MARY. TRY TO REESTABLISH THAT CONNECTION AS YOU ARE GOING THROUGH. AND IF YOU ONLY DO TWO DECADES, THEN GOOD ENOUGH. BECAUSE THE OBJECTIVE OF THE PRAYER IS NOT TO FINISH THE ROSARY. THE OBJECTIVE OF THE PRAYER IS TO CONNECT WITH THE LORD TO KNOW HIS LOVE FOR YOU AND TO EXPRESS YOUR LOVE IN PHRASE OF HIM IN THE MIDST OF KNOWING HIS LOVE FOR YOU. THAT'S THE OBJECTIVE OF YOUR PRAYER. AND REESTABLISHING THAT CONNECTION AND EVERY THREE OR FOUR HAIL MARYS, YOU CAN DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT. GO THROUGH THE PRAYERS OF CONNECTION. AND THE OTHER THING THAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES WHEN YOU ARE ESTABLISHING THAT CONNECTION, YOU NOTICE THAT WHEN YOU SAY, I KNOW YOU ARE GUIDING ME. AND THEN YOU START LISTENING. SOMETHING IS GOING TO COME UP AND YOU MAY THINK, YOU KNOW, I REALLY DIDN'T THINK BIT. BUT FOR LENT, I COULD REALLY DO THIS AND SOMEBODY MAY BE HELPFUL. AND YOU MAY JUST COME UP WITH, YOU KNOW, REALLY, I HAVE BEEN A LITTLE IMPATIENT OF LATE. AND MAYBE I WANT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT. BUT MAYBE YOU JUST SAY, OH, I NEVER THOUGHT OF THIS BEFORE. BUT GOSH, MAYBE THE LORD IS REALLY UNCONDITIONALLY PATIENT AND YOU MAY BE THINKING ABOUT 1 CORINTHIANS 13 OR JUST SAYING, OH, IF LOVE IS PATIENT, THEN GOD MUST BE UNRESTRICTEDLY PATIENT. IF LOVE IS KIND, THEN GOD MUST BE UNRESTRICTEDLY KIND. AND IF LOVE IS MERCIFUL, GOD MUST BE UNRESTRICTEDLY MERCIFUL. IF LOVE DOESN'T GET ANGRY, THEN GOD MUST BE UNRESTRICTEDLY NOT ANGRY. SO FORTH. SO, YOU MAY GET AN INSIGHT. MY ONE THOUGHT IS, THAT'S WHAT'S CALLED SPIRITUAL FRUIT. WE ARE GOING TO BE TALKING MORE ABOUT THIS WITH RESPECT TO THE HOLY SPIRIT. SO, SOMETIMES WHEN THE INSIGHTS COME TO YOU AFTER YOU LISTEN TO THE LORD, YOU GO THROUGH THAT PRAYER AND YOU SAY, I KNOW YOU ARE HERE. I KNOW YOU LOVE ME. I KNOW YOU ARE GUIDING ME. AND WHEN YOU ARE GETTING THE SPIRITUAL FRUIT, CONSIDER IT, THE LORD RESPONDING. AND IF IT'S, YOU KNOW, CONSOLATION IN THIS, YOU KNOW, EVEN IF IT'S AN INSIGHT THAT YOU COULD IMPROVE ON OR SOMETIMES IT'S AN INSIGHT ABOUT THE LORD, SCRIPTURE, ABOUT SOMETHING THAT YOU NEVER THOUGHT OF BEFORE IN THE SPIRITUAL LIFE, WHATEVER IT MAY BE. A THOUGHT ABOUT GRACE, WHATEVER IT MAY BE. STICK WITH IT AS IGNATIUS SAYS. IF THERE'S REAL CONSOLING SPIRITUAL FRUIT COMING FROM LISTENING, JUST STICK WITH IT. IT'S OKAY IF YOU ONLY DO ONE DECADE. YOU KNOW, DON'T GET, YOU KNOW, THE IDEA OF HAVING TO FINISH. I ALWAYS DO THIS MANY PRAYERS. AND SO, YOU LOSE ALL OF THE FRUIT OF THE LORD SAYING SPITZER, SPITZER, I'M TRYING TO GET IN HERE WITH SOMETHING FOR YOU! I'M TRYING TO BRING SOME GOOD NEWS. JUST SOMETHING THEOLOGICAL AND YOU ARE GOING, OH, DON'T DISTURB ME BECAUSE I HAVE TO FINISH THESE 8 PRAYERS WHICH I ALWAYS DO. >> Doug: CHECK OFF THE BOXES. >> Father: EXACTLY. AND I'M GOING TO BLAST THROUGH. SO, THE IDEA AS YOU CAN SEE IS JUST TO STICK WITH THE FRUIT. IF YOU ONLY GET SO FAR, LOOK, GOD IS SPEAKING WITH YOU, GOD IS COMMUNICATING WITH YOU AND GOD IS LEADING YOU AND SO FORTH. ONE THING THAT WE TALK ABOUT WHEN WE GET TO DISCERNMENT LATER ON IN THE EPISODE. IF YOU START GETTING DISTRACTIONS, MOVE ON TO THE DECADE AND SO FORTH AND SO ON. SO, IF YOU THINK, I'VE WONDERED HOW DOES A BOILER WORK. AND THE REASON I BRING UP THIS EXAMPLE IS BECAUSE WHEN I WAS A NOVITIATE WAS, ONE OF MY DISTRACTIONS WAS, HOW DO THINGS WORK. I SEE ALL OF THE TUBES. I SEE HOW THAT COULD WORK. THERE MUST BE BOILING WATER GOING THROUGH THE TUBES. AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, I'M THINKING, WHAT'S THIS GOD TO DO WITH PRAYER? SO, I WOULD SAY, MOVE OUT OF THE DISTRACTION. MOVE BACK TO THE HAIL MARY. SOMETHING LIKE THAT. SOMETHING THAT KEEPS YOU GOING. BUT FOLLOW THE FRUIT AS LONG AS THE FRUIT IS THERE. AND THEN GO TO YOUR HAIL MARYS. THEN GO TO THE NEXT PRAYER, LORD JESUS, I KNOW YOU ARE HERE, I KNOW YOU LOVE ME. AND I KNOW YOU ARE GUIDING ME AND LISTENING PRAYER FOR A SECOND. THEN, SO THE MAIN THING, BE IN TOUCH WITH THE LORD. WHEN YOU ARE IN TOUCH WITH THE LORD, THERE'S A CERTAIN, COME OUT REFRESHED. YOU HAVE BEEN WITH YOUR FRIEND AND YOU KNOW, YOU BECOME CONFIDENT IN HIS LOVE. SO, JUST STICK WITH THAT. I WOULD SAY THAT PRAYER IS REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT. AND OUR FATHER IS THE IMPORTANT PRAYER AND HAIL MARY. BUT THE MAIN THING, DON'T WORRY ABOUT FINISHING. FOLLOW WHERE THE SPIRIT LEADS YOU IN THE PRAYER. AND IF IT'S ONE DECADE, IT'S ONE DECADE. IF IT'S FOUR HAIL MARYS, I MEAN, THINK ABOUT THINGS, YOU HAVE GOTTEN INTO THE LORD, YOU HAVE GOTTEN INSIGHT INTO HIS LOVE, THEN GOOD PRAYER! YOU KNOW, HAPPY THE DAY. YOU SEE IN THE MIDST OF THOSE KIND OF CONSOLATIONS, SOMETIMES, WE'LL TALK ABOUT DESOLATION LATER IN THIS EPISODE OR MAYBE THE NEXT EPISODE WHEN YOU GET INTO A STATE OF DESOLATION OR A STATE OF DISTRACTION OR STATE OF THE DESERT WHERE NOTHING IS HAPPENING. JUST SAY YOUR HAIL MARYS. AND TRYING TO DO WHAT YOU DID. YOU ARE CONSECRATING YOUR TIME TO THE LORD. AND YOU ARE TRYING TO BE WITH HIM. YOU ARE RESORTING A REQUISITE EFFORT. BUT REMEMBER, BEING CONSOLED IN PRAYER AND GETTING BENEFITS FROM PRAYER, THAT'S GOD'S GRACE. WE'RE NOT GIVING THAT GRACE TO OURSELVES. WE'RE NOT MANIPULATING OURSELVES INTO FEELING THAT CONSOLATION OR MANIPULATION IN PRAYER. RIGHT? THIS IS COMING FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT COMING FROM THE LORD HIMSELF, RIGHT? AND OF COURSE, WHEN HE GIVES US THIS KIND OF GRACE, WE THINK HIM FOR IT. AND IF IT'S NOT THERE, HE'S GOT SOMETHING ELSE IN MIND. AND WE JUST KEEP MOVING ALONG. WE SAY OUR PRAYERS, MAY BE DISTRACTED AND THINKING ABOUT THINGS. WE MAY NOT BE GETTING ANY CONSOLATION. DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT! YOU CONSECRATED THE TIME TO THE LORD, GIVING THEM THE PRAISE THAT IS DUE, TRYING TO BE WITH HIM AS BEST YOU CAN. DON'T WORRY! THE MAIN THING, YOU KNOW WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR WORRYING, RIGHT? YOU WATCH THIS SHOW HE ENOUGH. YEAH. YEAH. THE GUY THAT ALWAYS LOVE THE FEAR IS THE DEVIL, NOT THE LORD. >> Doug: LET ME ASK YOU THIS. WITH THE IDEA OF, WHY DO WE PRAY IN A SENSE? OKAY. DO PEOPLE TEND TO THINK, I PRAY TO GOD BECAUSE BECAUSE GOD WANTS BOTH. MINE, WHAT'S THE WHOLE IDEA OF OUR SALVATION AND PRAYER TO THE RELATIONSHIP OF GOD. >> Father: OKAY. I WOULD WOULD SAY TWO THINGS BY AND LARGE. OKAY. FIRST OF ALL WE PRAY BECAUSE GOD WANTS US TO PRAY. BUT WHY DOES GOD WANT US TO PRAY? BASICALLY, THE GRACE IS FOR US AND GOD WANTS US TO PRAY BECAUSE HE KNOWS THAT WHEN WE CONNECT WITH HIM WE'RE GOING TO GROW CLOSER AND HEARTS ARE GOING TO BE TRANSFORMED. AND WE'RE GOING TO GET THAT CONSOLATION FROM HIM. AND WE'LL SEE, RIGHT, AT THE END OF THE DAY THAT THIS IS, YOU KNOW, WHAT HE WANTS FOR US. SO, GOD IS NOT UP THERE GOING, HEY, I NEED A LITTLE ATTENTION HERE! YOU KNOW, I WANT TO YOU PRAY BECAUSE I WANT TO KNOW THAT I'M APPRECIATED. RIGHT? I MEAN, GOD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A KIND OF STOIC NARCISSISM. YOU KNOW? HE'S JUST THE OPPOSITE, HE'S THE FATHER OF THE PRODIGAL SON. SO, IT'S A GREAT QUESTION. WE CAN SOMETIMES THINK GOD, WHAT HE REALLY WANTS FROM US IS TO BE OBSEQUIOUS AND JUST SERVILE AND DOWN ON THE FLOOR, YOU KNOW, HUMBLE. WHAT HE REALLY WANTS IS TO GIVE US THE CONSOLATION OF COMPANIONSHIP WITH HIM. HE OF COURSE WANTS US TO BE, YOU KNOW, BROTHERS OF JESUS. HE WANTS US TO, YOU KNOW, TO BE FRIENDS TO BE IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM, TO DEVELOP AN INTIMATE FRIENDSHIP WITH HIM AND OF COURSE, WHEN WE DO, WE ARE SO NOURISHED. WE ARE SO TRANSFORMED. WE ARE SO GIVEN OVER IN PEACE. AND OF COURSE, THIS HAS A LOT OF EFFECTS. SOME OF THE EFFECTS ARE MORAL WHICH ARE GREAT BECAUSE AS I SAID, YOU KNOW, JUST TICKED OFF THE DEADLY SINS, GUILTY AS CHARGED. I THINK MAYBE THE ONLY ONE THAT JUST DOESN'T REALLY BESIEGE ME IS SLOTH. BUT -- >> Doug: I'LL PICK THAT ONE UP FOR YOU! >> Father: NO. RIGHT. WHEN HAVE YOU STOPPED WORKING? OH MY, SLOTH IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM. OKAY. NOW, THE MAIN THING IS, IF YOU REALLY LOOK AT IT, WE DO GET A MORAL BENEFIT, WE DO MAKE AN IMPROVEMENT. WE GET THE VIRTUES, WE TALKED BIT LAST WEEK IN THE EXAMEN PRAYER. WE GET THOSE VIRTUES, YOU KNOW, TOWARD THE FUTURE, TRANSFORMATION OF OUR HEART AND THE HEART OF GOD. AND ALSO, WE GET OTHER BENEFITS. NOT JUST THE TRANSFORMATION OF OUR HEARTS. NOT JUST A DEEPER CONVERSION ALTHOUGH THOSE THINGS ARE IMPORTANT. WE ACTUALLY GET TO BE WITH THE LORD IN FRIENDSHIP, RELATIONSHIP AND OF COURSE, WITH THAT COMES CONSOLATION. WITH THAT COMES ALL OF THE BENEFITS OF FRIENDSHIP, RIGHT? I MEAN, WHY DO WE WANT TO HAVE FRIENDS. BECAUSE FRIENDS GIVE US, NOT JUST THE THINGS THAT WE NEED FOR OUR LIVES NOW, LIKE A MODICUM OF SECURITY OR A MODICUM OF COMPANIONSHIP. WE DON'T WANT TO BE LONELY, RIGHT? BUT GOD, WHEN WE'RE WITH GOD, WHAT I'M GOING TO CALL COSMIC LONELINESS DISAPPEARS. OUR FRIENDS FILL US SO WE'RE NOT EMPTY. BUT ALSO, GOD FILLS US AS WELL SO WE DON'T FEEL COSMIC EMPTINESS AND DON'T FEEL THAT TOTALISTIC EMPTINESS. AND GOD FILLS US WITH A SENSE OF HIS HOME, WITH A SENSE OF HIS PRESENCE, WITH A SENSE OF HIS WELL BEING. SO, WE'RE BENEFITING AND WE'RE RECEIVING THESE CONSOLATIONS FROM THE LORD WHICH SHOULD BE AS WE TALK ABOUT LATER INCREASING OUR TRUST, INCREASING OUR HOPE AND INCREASING OUR LOVE. SO, IF THAT'S REALLY HAPPENING, THEN FOR ALL INTENSIVE PURPOSES, WE'VE GOTTEN TO THE POINT WHERE, WE ARE BEING TRANSFORMED. BUT WE'RE ENJOYING BEING TRANSFORMED IN THE PROCESS. AND DEFINITELY FEELING AND EXPERIENCING THE BENEFITS OF FRIENDSHIP AS WE'RE BEING TRANSFORMED. OF COURSE, IF YOU READ THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF ST. THERESE OF AVILA, ALL IS NOT DRUDGERY IN PRAYER. EVEN AT THE BEGINNING, IN THE PURGATIVE WAY, THERE'S ALL OF THESE WONDERFUL EXPERIENCES OF BEING WITH THE LORD AS WE KIND OF GROWING WITH HIM, EXPERIENCING HIS FRIENDSHIP, ALL OF THAT. >> Doug: EXACTLY TRANSFORMATION GOING ON AND TRANSITIONS AS WE HAVE THIS BREAK IN A SHOW. THERE'S GOING TO BE MUCH MORE WITH FATHER SPITZER AHEAD OF COURSE. WE'RE BE GOING TO TALK ABOUT PRAYER AND MOVING INTO THE HOLY SPIRIT. DON'T CHANGE THAT DIAL DON'T GO ANYWHERE. MUCH MORE AHEAD AS "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE" CONTINUES RIGHT HERE ONLY ON EWTN. STAY WITH US. ♪ ♪ >> Doug: FOLLOWING THE HOLY SPIRIT AND DISCERNMENT THAT'S WHAT WE'RE DOING HERE IN THE MIDST OF "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE". AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MOVING OUT OF PRAYER, EXAMEN PRAYER, LAST COUPLE OF EPISODES. SO, LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS TOPIC AND HERE'S A QUESTION THAT MAY BE THE QUESTION MANY PEOPLE HAVE. COMES TO US VIA TWITTER. HOW DO WE KNOW THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS REALLY TALKING TO US? SOMETIMES I THINK I HEAR HIM SAYING "IT'S OKAY, I STILL LOVE YOU" WHEN I'M PRAYING. KATHY THAT SOUNDS VERY PROMISING BUT I THINKS A LOT OF PEOPLE RELATE TO THE FIRST PART OF THE QUESTION. SAYING, HOW DO I KNOW THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS TALKING TO ME. YOU TALKED ABOUT GETTING DARK MESSAGES. YOU KNOW THAT'S NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT. BUT THAT LEADS TO THE WHOLE IDEA HOW DO I DISCERN. EVEN IF I THINK THE HOLY SPIRIT IS TALKING TO ME, HOW DO I DISCERN WHAT THAT MEANS? >> Father: THAT'S REALLY THE QUESTION. FIRST OF ALL, YES, YOUR LAST PRAYER WHERE YOU HEAR THE HOLY SPIRIT SAYING, IT'S OKAY. I'M WITH YOU. ABSOLUTELY HE'S WITH YOU. YES, HE IS TRYING TO LEAD YOU AND HE DOES LOVE YOU. YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. STICK WITH THAT PRAYER BECAUSE THAT IS CERTAINLY NOT A PRAYER FROM THE DEVIL. THE DEVIL IS NOT GOING TO TELL YOU THAT GOD LOVES YOU. I'LL TELL YOU THAT RIGHT NOW. HE'S GOING TO TELL YOU THAT HE'S DISGUSTED WITH YOU ET CETERA. BUT THE MAIN THING WITH RESPECT TO DISCERNMENT, I WANT TO BRING OUT A LITTLE BIT OF VOCABULARY AND EXPLAIN IT IN THIS EPISODE AND NEXT EPISODE EXPLAIN IT A LITTLE MORE AS WELL. BUT JUST FOR THE TIME BEING, IGNATIUS KIND OF DIVIDES PEOPLE INTO TWO GROUPS, WHAT HE CALLS THE FIRST WEEK AND TALKING ABOUT THE FIRST WEEK OF THE SPIRITUAL EXERCISES. THAT COULD BE MORE THAN A WEEK. AND HE HAS THE SECOND WEEK. AND PEOPLE OF THE SECOND WEEK OF THE SPIRITUAL EXERCISES. NOW, THE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE FIRST WEEK OF THE SPIRITUAL EXERCISES, THEY ARE THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT REALLY EMBARKED VERY DEEPLY ON ANY KIND OF CONVERSION, INTELLECTUAL CONVERSION, SPIRITUAL OR ANY OTHER KIND. PEOPLE THAT HAVE NOT EMBARKED ON THAT IN THE FIRST WEEK. BUT PEOPLE IN THE SECOND WEEK, THEY HAVE EMBARKED ON THAT. THEY DO BELIEVE IN GOD. THEY DO WANT TO FOLLOW THE LORD. AND THEY WANT TO FOLLOW HIS TRUTH, HIS REVELATION, NOT THEIR OWN TRUTH OR THEIR OWN REVELATION, RIGHT? THEY WANT TO SURRENDER TO HIS TRUTH BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT THERE IS THE LIGHT OF LOVE HERE, THE LIGHT OF GOODNESS HERE. AND THE THIRD THING IS, THEY ARE WILLING WHEN THEY SEE THE SEVEN DEADLY SINS POP UP. THEY DO WANT TO NIP THEM IN THE BUD. THEY ARE TRYING. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY ARE PERFECTLY SUCCESSFUL OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT. TO BE SUCCESSFUL MEANS YOU ARE ON THE ROAD. AND YOU DO WANT TO FOLLOW THE TRUTH AND THE GOODNESS OF THE LORD. YOU ARE OPEN TO THAT, RIGHT? YOU DO BELIEVE IN GOD AND JESUS CHRIST. YOU ARE ON THE ROAD, BASICALLY, WITH THE LORD. AND I WOULD SAY FAR FROM PERFECT BUT YOU ARE ON THE ROAD. SO, WHY DOES IGNATIUS TALK ABOUT THESE THINGS? BECAUSE THE FIRST WEEK VS. THE SECOND WEEK THAT IS. BUT BECAUSE HE WANTS TO SAY THE HOLY SPIRIT SPEAKS IN TWO DIFFERENT LANGUAGES. SO, IF A PERSON IS IN THE FIRST WEEK, RIGHT? THE SPIRIT IS NOT GOING TO JUST INFUSE THIS PERSON SAYS IGNATIUS, RIGHT? THE PERSON HAS ENTERED INTO THEIR OWN DESOLATION AND THEIR OWN DARKNESS. AND THE HOLY SPIRIT LET'S THEM FEEL THAT DESOLATION, THAT DARKNESS, THAT EMPTINESS, COSMIC EMPTINESS, LONELINESS, GUILT, SENSE OF ALIENATION NOT BEING. AND THE HOLY SPIRIT LEADS THEM THERE NOT TO A POINT WHERE IT COULD BE A DANGER TO THEMSELVES. THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NEVER GOING TO LET THEM GET TOTALLY DISCOURAGED OR DARK. BUT HE IS GOING TO LET THEM FEEL THAT PAIN THAT THEY HAVE ENTERED INTO. AND THE ABSENCE OF HIS CONSOLING AND LOVING PRESENCE, THAT PERSON IS IN THE DARKNESS AND THERE'S KIND OF A PAIN, WE'LL CALL IT IN A MOMENT, AFFECTIVE DESOLATION THAT THAT PERSON FEELS. AND THE HOLY SPIRIT SAYS KIND OF, OKAY. I'M GOING TO LEAVE YOU. AND WHAT'S THE DEVIL DO IN THE FIRST WEEK? WE'RE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE IN THE FIRST WEEK. THE DEVIL TRIES TO CONSOLE YOU. THE DEVIL COMES AND SAYS, HOW SMART YOU ARE. RIGHT? SO, HE'S GOING TO FILL YOU UP AND HE'S GOING TO MAKE YOU THINK THAT YOU ARE THE BEES KNEES AND HE'S GOING TO SAY, HEY, NOT ONLY ARE YOU IMPORTANT BUT EVERYTHING THAT YOU ARE DOING IS RIGHT ON, ON THE RIGHT PATH. AND BY THE WAY, DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE PRIDE. IT'S NOTHING. YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST A LITTLE THING. WHO NOTICES ARROGANCE ANYWAYS, IT'S JUST SOMETHING INSIDE OF YOU. AND WORRY ABOUT YOUR BEHAVIOR. I KNOW THAT YOU HAVE BEEN, YOU KNOW, JUST TREATING OTHER PEOPLE WITH A SHOTGUN IN YOUR HAND AND YOU ARE ANGRY ALL THE TIME. DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT. ANGER IS JUST A LITTLE THING. EVERYBODY HAS A RIGHT TO BE ANGRY SO THERE'S ALWAYS SOMETHING, RATIONALIZATION AND FALSE CONSOLATION OF THE PERSON WHO IS IN THE FIRST WEEK. BUT THE RATIONALIZATION AND THE FALSE CONSOLATIONS UNDER KNEAD IT THAT PERSON IS GOING TO FEEL A COSMIC ALIENATION, EMPTINESS, FOREBODING, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING UNDERNEATH IT AND THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT CONSOLING HIM. ONLY THE DEVIL IS GOING TO BE CONSOLING THEM. AND THE HOLY SPIRIT IS FILLING THEM WITH DOUBTS ABOUT THEIR THOUGHTS ABOUT, DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE SEVEN DEADLY SINS. I MEAN, THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GOING TO BE SAYING IT'S OKAY. I'M TELLING YOU STRAIGHT. OF COURSE, YOU HAVE THAT WHOLE DYNAMIC IN THE FIRST WEEK. AND IF YOU GO TO THE SECOND WEEK, THE DYNAMIC IS GOING TO BE PRECISELY THE OPPOSITE. THE PERSON IN THE SECOND WEEK IS THE PERSON WHO IS ON THE ROAD TO CONVERSION, RIGHT? INTELLECTUAL CONVERSION, THEY ARE BECOMING MORE CONVINCED OF THE LORD AND HIS PRESENCE. SPIRITUAL CONVERSION, THEY WANT TO HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH THE LORD AND THEY ARE TRYING TO FIND OUT WHO HE IS AND WHAT HIS WILL IS. AND OF COURSE, MORAL CONVERSION, THEY ARE TRYING TO MOVE AWAY FROM THE DEADLY SINS. THEY ARE NOT PERFECT BUT THEY ARE TRYING TO MOVE AWAY. THEY ARE ON THE ROAD WITH THE LORD. TOTALLY DIFFERENT DYNAMIC AND IN THAT WEEK, THEN, WHAT HAPPENS, THE HOLY SPIRIT COMES AND IS GOING TO FILL THAT PERSON WITH CONSOLATION AND THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL COME AROUND BRING PEACE TO THAT PERSON AND SO FORTH. NOT THE DEVIL, THE DEVIL IS GOING TO COME AND HE'S GOING TO SAY, AHA, WE'LL GET TO THIS IN JUST A MOMENT. THE DEVIL APPEARS LIKE A ANGEL OF LIGHT. I BROUGHT THIS UP BEFORE, BUT THE DEVIL WILL COME APPEARING AS AN ANGEL OF LIGHT. AND IF A PERSON IS ON CONVERSION AND IN THE SECOND WEEK OF THE SPIRITUAL EXERCISES AND ALREADY MOVING TOWARD THE LORD, IT'S HARDER FOR THE DEVIL TO JUST COME AND JUST SAY, OH, DON'T WORRY ABOUT PRIDE, IT'S OKAY. ANGER, EVERYBODY DOES IT. GREED IS GOOD. GORDON GECKO. >> WALL STREET. >> RIGHT. YEAH. WALL STREET. SO, WHAT YOU ARE DEALING WITH, THE PERSON DOING THIS IS THE SECOND WEEK, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT. AND THEY ARE NOT GOING TO BE DECEIVED IN A NAIVE WAY. THEY KNOW THEY ARE HURTING THEMSELVES AND THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. INSTEAD, THE DEVIL HAS TO COME AND GO, YOU KNOW, YOU ARE MAKING SOME PROGRESS BUT YOU DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT GOD. YOU ARE INTELLECTUAL CONVERSION IS PATHETIC REALLY WHEN YOU GET DOWN TO IT. AND I CAN CHOP A HOLE, EVEN YOU MAY BELIEVE IN THIS MIRACLE, THAT MIRACLE. LET ME SEE IF I CAN FIND SOMETHING TO CHOP A HOLE IN THAT. AND YOU MAY BELIEVE IN THE SHROUD OF TURIN OR NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCE. I CAN CHOP A WHOLE IN THAT. AND FIRST OF ALL, HE'S GOING TO COME AND ATTACK YOU AND JUST TRY TO GIVE YOU DOUBTS. THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GOING TO LIFT YOU UP AND MAKE YOU CERTAIN IN THE SECOND WEEK BUT THE DEVIL WILL COME FIRST WITH DOUBTS. BUT IF THE DOUBTS DON'T WORK AND YOU GO, NO, NO, THERE'S SOMETHING TO THIS. I BRING EVERYTHING TOGETHER, ALL OF THESE MIRACLES. MARIAN MIRACLES, EUCHARISTIC MIRACLES OF THE SAINTS. I BRING TOGETHER AWFUL THESE THINGS WITH RESPECT TO THE SHROUD OF TURIN, NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES AND PHILOSOPHICAL EXPERIENCE, YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE'S SOMETHING OF THIS. I CAN MAKE ONE OF NEWMAN'S FORMAL INFERENCES, THE PREPONDERANCE OF EVIDENCE, NOT ONLY OF MY TRANSCENDENT SOUL AND HIS LOVE FOR ME AND NOW, ALL OF A SUDDEN, YOU REBUFF HIM. AND YOU JUST BE REASONABLE. JUST BE REASONABLE, YOU CAN REBUFF HIS ATTEMPTS TO MAKE YOU DOUBT. SO, THEN THE DEVIL COMES. HE WILL TRY A SECOND TACT WHICH IS THE OPPOSITE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. HE'S GOING TO COME AND TRY TO ATTACK YOUR SPIRITUAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. BUT HOW DOES HE DO IT? ALWAYS APPEARING LIKE AN ANGEL OF LIGHT. YOU ARE IN THE SECOND WEEK NOW. ASSOCIATION YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BE TOO FOOLED NOW IF SOMEBODY COMES ALONG AND SAYS, LOOK, GOD, THE FATHER OF THE PRODIGAL SON IS NOT JESUS' CONSUMMATE REVELATION OF GOD THE FATHER. IF HE'S BLATANT AND TRIES TO GIVE YOU A FALSE TEE, YOU ARE LIKELY TO SAY, ACTUALLY, THIS MAKES SENSE TO ME THAT GOD IS UNRESTRICTED LOVE AND THE FATHER OF THE PRODIGAL SON IS PROBABLY JESUS' REVELATION. AND YOU REBUFF HIM THAT WAY. AND HE COMES AND HE GOES. WELL, MAYBE GOD IS LOVE. BUT LET'S JUST FACE FACTS. YOU ARE AN EXCEPTION TO THE RULE. AND NOW, IF YOU REALLY WANTED TO BE AUTHENTIC, YOU WOULD SEE JUST HOW FAR SHORT OF LOVE YOU REALLY ARE. IT'S ALL ABOUT YOU. AND YOU ARE NOT THERE YET. YOU ARE, HERE'S GOD UNRESTRICTED LOVE AND HERE'S YOU, YOU PATHETIC LITTLE WORM. AND FOR ALL INTENSIVE PURPOSES, WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? RIGHT? AND OF COURSE, THAT WHOLE DEAL, YOU KNOW OF THE DEVIL WHO IS THE ACCUSER, HE'S COMING AND APPEARING LIKE AN ANGEL OF LIGHT. AND HE COMES WITH ACCUSATION AND MORAL JUDGMENT. FIRST, WHEN YOU HEAR THIS, YOU KNOW RIGHT AWAY. HEY, WAIT A MINUTE. THIS DOESN'T SOUND LIKE THE HOLY SPIRIT. AND RIGHT YOU ARE. WHEN YOU START HEARING THAT DEAFENING TONE OF ANGER, THAT DEAFENING TONE OF, YOU LITTLE WORM, I DISGUSTING LITTLE WRETCH, RIGHT? WHEN YOU HEAR THE TONE OF INSULT AND YOU HEAR THE TONE OF DISCOURAGEMENT AND DESOLATION, WHEN YOU HEAR THE TONE OF NOT VALUING YOU IN YOUR UNIQUE GOODNESS LOVE AND ABILITY IN WORTH, WHEN YOU HEAR THE TONE, I DON'T LIKE YOU OR YOU SHOULD NOT LIKE YOURSELF, IF YOU HEAR THAT TONE, IT IS NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT. IT IS THE DEVIL TRYING TO LOOK LIKE THE HOLY SPIRIT BUT HE ALWAYS STARTS OFF WITH ACKNOWLEDGING THE TRUTH THAT YOU BELIEVE. SO, IF YOU SAY, WELL, WAIT A MINUTE. I DO BELIEVE GOD IS UNRESTRICTED LOVE. I DO BELIEVE THAT'S JESUS' INTENTION. AND THEN, YOU KNOW, HE STARTS IN ON YOU, RIGHT? WITH AN EXAGGERATION OF THE TRUTH BUT YOU ARE NOT THERE YET. SO, REMEMBER FOR A SECOND, THERE'S ANOTHER THING THAT THE DEVIL DOES. AGAIN, IT'S UNRESTRICTED LOVE. OH, DON'T BE A FOOL, ARE YOU KIDDING ME. YOU ARE JUST TELLING YOURSELF THAT TO MAKE YOURSELF FEEL GOOD, JUST TO PAMPER YOURSELF AND PAT YOUR LITTLE WIMPY SELF ON THE BACK. WELL, I'VE GOT SOME NEWS FOR YOU. JUST QUITE THE GOOD NEWS STUFF. YOU HAVE SOME REAL WORK TO DO, YOU LITTLE WRETCH. THERE IT COMES BACK AGAIN. OR NOTICE, THOUGH, WHAT'S IN THE RHETORIC, THE UNRESTRICTED LOVE OF GOD IS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE. SO, WHEN YOU START HEARING THAT, IT'S NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT! >> Doug: AND MAYBE YOU ARE NOT WORTHY OF THAT GOOD NEWS. >> Father: RIGHT. YOU ARE NOT WORTHY OF THAT GOOD NEWS. AND YOU HAVE SO MUCH TO DO BEFORE YOU CAN BE THE RECIPIENT OF THAT GOOD NEWS. AND BESIDES YOU ARE A LITTLE WRETCH AND YOU OUGHT TO THINK HOW YOU ARE FALLING SHORT OF IT INSTEAD OF RELYING ON IT. WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE. THERE IT IS AGAIN! WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE, YOU LITTLE WRETCH. WHEN YOU HEAR THAT, THAT'S NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT. THE DEVALUATION OF YOURSELF, THE DEVALUATION OF YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. THE DEVALUATION OF GOD'S LOVE FOR YOU. THE DEVALUATION OF YOUR INTRINSIC LOVABILITY AND WORTH, THAT CAN'T BE THE HOLY SPIRIT! THAT'S ONLY ONE OTHER SPIRIT AND THAT'S THE DEVIL. BUT NOTICE, HE ALWAYS COMES FIRST. AND HE ALWAYS TRY TO SAY, OH, YOU KNOW, I'VE GOT NEWS FOR YOU. YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THIS. YOU ARE RIGHT. ALL CORRECT. BUT YOU FORGET THE FOLLOWING THING. AND THEN HE GOES AWAY AND HE WHITTLES AWAY ON YOU. >> Doug: AND LAKE LIKE YOU ARE SAYING, JUST BEFORE WE GO TO THE BREAK, FATHER, JUST THE IDEA OF THINKING WHAT WE'VE SEEN CONVENIENTLY AT TIMES, IN THE LIFE OF CHURCH. ON ONE SIDE, AFTER THE CONVENIENT ELECTIONS, CERTAINLY AS RELATES TO THINGS FOR ABORTION, LIKE SAID, THE KIND OF PAIN, LEVEL OF ANGER THAT'S BEEN DISPLAYED GIVES YOU THAT IDEA THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE IN THAT FIRST WEEK. AND THEN, SOMETIMES IN THE SECOND WEEK, WE'RE DEALING WITH GOOD CHRISTIANS WHO ARE BEING DISSUADED THAT THEY CAN GO ALONG IN SOCIETY WITH THE WAY IT IS AND THAT'S PERFECTLY FINE. >> Father: YEAH, AND BOY, WE'RE GOING TO GET TO THAT WHEN WE GET TO MORAL CONVERSION. AND YES, ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. THE DEVIL CAN COME WITH JUST THE OPPOSITE RHETORIC AS WELL. HE CAN ACTUALLY SAY, WELL, GOD IS UNRESTRICTED LOVE. DOES IT MATTER WHAT YOU DO? EVERYTHING THAT YOU DO, HAVE YOU NO RESPONSE BILLION. GOD WILL JUST FORGIVE IT AND EVERYTHING IS GOOD EVENING TO BE FINE. THAT TOO IS THE OPPOSITE EXTREME. BUT AGAIN, NOTICE HOW HE STARTS OFF. GOD'S UNRESTRICTED LOVE AND THEN YOU GET THE THEREFORE, YOUR HUMAN FREEDOM DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE AND IT DOES MATTER. ABOUT THE USE OF OUR FREEDOM. NO HE'S NOT TELLING US THAT YOU HAVE TO BE PERFECT TOMORROW. WELL, HOLD ON TO THAT BECAUSE WE'LL GET TO THE MORAL CONVERSION. BUT HE SAYS AT THE SAME TIME, OUR CHOICES DO MATTER AND WE KEEP BUILDING UP THE CHOICES AND HAVE YOU TO BUILD UP YOUR CHOICES ON THE TRUTH. YOU CAN'T BUILD UP YOUR CHOICES ON A LIE BECAUSE IF YOU DO, THEN YOU ARE GOING TO BUILD UP THESE SINFUL HABITS AND YOU ARE GOING TO THINK THAT THOSE SINFUL HABITS DON'T MATTER AND YOU ARE GETTING FURTHER AND FURTHER AWAY FROM LOVE. AND AS YOU GET FURTHER AND FURTHER AWAY FROM LOVE, THEN EVENTUALLY, YOU ARE GOING TO BE PERSUADED THAT THE LIGHTNESS IS BETTER THAN THE LIGHT, I MEAN, THE DARKNESS IS BETTER THAN THE LIGHT. AND YOU KNOW, THE NARCISSISM IS BETTER. YOU KNOW, ABORTION IS THE ULTIMATE NARCISSISTIC ACT AND IF HE CONVINCES YOU THAT'S OKAY, YOU GOT TO KILL A CHILD, BECAUSE IT'S IN UTERO, IT'S OKAY. SO YOU CAN SEE THAT THE NARCISSISM GETS INSIDE OF YOU AND IT DOES MATTER. AND YOU KNOW, THE MAIN THING THAT YOU WANT TO REMEMBER, WHEN YOU SEE THIS IS THAT WHEN GOD GETS THERE, IT'S NOT AS IF THE LORD COMES AND HE HATES YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE GOTTEN FOOLED BY ABORTION IS OKAY OR YOU GOT FOOLED BY WHATEVER IS OKAY. AND YOU ARE NO LONGER LOOKING OUT FOR YOUR MORAL CONVERSION OR CHOICES. YOU NO LONGER TAKE YOUR FREE WILL SERIOUSLY, HE'S NOT HATING YOU FOR THAT. IT'S LIKE A PARENT WALKING INTO A ROOM AND SEES THE BABY IN THE BASSINET AND THE SNAKE IS THERE, RIGHT NEXT TO THE BABY. OF COURSE, THE LORD IS WORRIED ABOUT YOU. HE'S NOT HATING YOU. THE PARENT DOESN'T HATE THE CHILD ANY LESS BECAUSE THE SNAKE IS NOW SUPER CLOSE TO YOU IN THE BASSINET. HE LOVES YOU UNCONDITIONALLY AND HE HAS TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO GET THAT SNAKE OUT OF THERE THROUGH YOUR FREE CHOICE. SO, YOU KNOW, WE DON'T IT'S SO EASY TO ERR ON THE SIDE OF THINKING THAT GOD HATES US OUR THINKING THAT THE DEVIL'S SUGGESTIONS ARE TRUE. HE'S A TRICKY GUY. GETS BETWEEN THINGS AND RIGHT IN THE CRACKS AND THAT'S HOW HE DOES IT. >> Doug: AND THAT'S WHAT WE CALL A BREAK HERE ON TELEVISION. IT'S IN BETWEEN PIECE RIGHT HERE, SLIDING THAT IN AS WE TAKE A BREAK. GIVING FATHER A BREATHER. AND WE HAVE MUCH MORE TALKING ABOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT AND DISCERNMENT AS WE CONTINUE HERE ON "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE" WHICH THIS IS WHAT WE DISCUSS EACH WEEK. STAY WITH US. ♪ ♪ >> Doug: WE'RE BACK HERE ON "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE". TALKING ABOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT AND SPECIFICALLY DISCERNMENT. A VERY, VERY INTERESTING TOPIC, FATHER. THAT SO MANY PEOPLE TALK ABOUT. THE IDEA OF HOW DO I DISCERN WHAT GOD IS TALKING TO ME ABOUT. HERE'S A QUESTION FOR SOMEBODY THAT SOMEBODY WROTE TUESDAY, INTERESTING, THAT THEY WROTE BEFORE, FATHER, YOU ONCE SAID THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT THE RESULT OF THE LOVE BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE SON. OKAY. THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE SAYING THAT YOU SAID. THAT'S WHY I AM WONDERING -- OKAY. AND THEY SAY FURTHER, I REMEMBER HEARING THE SAME IN CLASSES MANY YEARS AGO. HOWEVER, ANYTHING THAT I READ CONCERNING TRINITY SUNDAY, IT ALMOST ALWAYS SAYS THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE RESULT OF THE LOVE OF THE FATHER AND THE SON. WHY? MAYBE THERE WAS A LITTLE MISHEARING THERE. BUT GO AHEAD. >> Father: YEAH, OKAY. I WOULD SAY THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT EQUIVALENT BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE SON WE NEED TO BE CAREFUL WITH THE WORD RESULT. THE HOLY SPIRIT DOES HAVE, ONE OF THE SELF CONSCIOUSNESSES OF THE GOD HID. REMEMBER, GOING BACK TO THE TIME WHEN I TALKED ABOUT THE HOLY TRINITY, THIS IS SEVERAL EPISODES AGO, YOU REMEMBER THAT WHAT WE WERE TRYING TO ESTABLISH, YOU HAVE ONE INFINITE POWER OF GOD. WE CALL THAT THE GODHEAD, ONE INFINITE NATURE. RIGHT? SO, THERE'S THIS ONE INFINITE NATURE, POWER, ACT, ONE INFINITE NATURE. BUT THERE'S THREE SELF CONSCIOUSNESSES. AND EACH ONE OF THOSE THREE, THERE'S A WAY, THAT WE ARE AWARE OF OURSELVES. AND THE SELF CONSCIOUSNESSES ARE MAKING AN UNCONDITIONAL USE OF THAT ONE INFINITE POWER SOURCE, THAT ONE INFINITE NATURE. AND I USED THE CRUDE ANALOGY ONE MONITOR MAKING THREE PROCESSING UNITS. BUT THAT'S VERY CRUDE. BUT THESE THREE SELF AWARENESS, THEY ARE MAKING ONE USE OF THE ONE INFINITE POWER SOURCE, INFINITE DIVINE NATURE. BUT THE MAIN THING TO REMEMBER, EACH ONE OF THEM HAS A DISTINCTNESS TO THEM, THEY ARE RELATING TO EACH OTHER AND OF COURSE, THE HOLY SPIRIT, RIGHT, WHEN THE FATHER LOVES THE SON AND THE SON LOVES THE FATHER, THEIR LOVE GOES OUTSIDE OF THEMSELVES. BUT YOU DON'T WANT TO SAY THAT IT'S REDUCIBLE TO THE LOVE OF THE FATHER OR THE SON, ANYMORE THAN YOU SAY THE LOVE OF THE CHILD IS REDUCIBLE TO THE LOVE OF THE FATHER AND THE MOTHER. YES, IT IS AS A RESULT OF THE MOTHER AND THE FATHER. YES, BUT THE CHILD, WHEN YOU SAY NOT THE RESULT, YOU DON'T WANT TO SAY, IT'S EQUIVALENT BUT THE MAIN THING THAT YOU NEED TO BE VERY, VERY CAREFUL, RIGHT, THAT THE CHILD HAS ITS OWN EXISTENCE EVEN THOUGH IT'S THE RESULT OF THE LOVE IN THE SENSE OF THE FATHER AND THE MOTHER'S LOVE FOR ONE ANOTHER. AND THAT LOVE GOES OUT TO WANT TO GO HAVE CHILDREN, TO SHARE THEIR UNITY, THEIR LOVE WITH THEIR CHILDREN. BUT THE CHILD STILL HAS ITS OWN AUTONOMY. STILL HAS ITS OWN EXISTENCE AND IS NOT REDUCIBLE TO THAT LOVE. WHAT HAPPENS THERE? SO, THE FIRST PROCESSION, THE FATHER LOVES THE SON. AND THE SECOND PROCESSION IS THAT THE SON RECEIVES THE LIGHT OF THE FATHER AND GIVES IT BACK TO THE FATHER. BUT THEN THAT UNIFIED LOVE GOES TO THE HOLY SPIRIT, REMEMBER? AND THE HOLY SPIRIT, RIGHT, LIKE A CHILD RECEIVED THE LOVE OF THE FATHER AND THE SON. AND THEN FOURTH PROCESSION, GIVES IT BACK TO THE FATHER AND THE SON IN THEIR UNITY JUST LIKE A CHILD GIVES BACK THE LOVE OF THE UNIFIED MOTHER AND FATHER. AND WHEN GIVING THAT LOVE BACK, RIGHT, IS DOING SO WITH ITS OWN FREE WILL AND COGNIZANCE, RIGHT? NOT A FREE WILL AND COGNIZANCE THAT'S REDUCIBLE TO THE COMBINED WILLS OF THE FATHER AND THE SON. JUST AS LONG AS WE UNDERSTAND THE WORD RESULT PROPERLY, YOU COULD SAY THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE RESULT OF THE LOVE OF THE FATHER AND THE SON'S LOVE. BUT YOU CANNOT REDUCE THE HOLY SPIRIT. THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS AN AUTONOMOUS EXISTENCE. OKAY. OKAY. >> Doug: SO, LET'S GO BACK TO AN EARLIER DISCUSSION BECAUSE OF DISCERNING SPIRITS. AND YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT IN A SENSE IN YOUR EARLIER QUESTION, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE DEVIL AND THE HOLY SPIRIT. NOW, OBVIOUSLY, WHENEVER WE'RE TALKING ABOUT PRAYING AND RELATING WHERE THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THERE BECAUSE THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD. NOW, THE DEVIL IS NOT GOD. AND WHEN WE SAY SATAN AND THE DEVIL IN THE SENSE OF TEMPTING, ARE WE USING THAT AS A BLANKET FOR OTHER TEMPTERS OR DEMONS? HOW DOES THAT WORK? >> Father: WELL, YEAH, OKAY. HERE'S THE THREE THINGS. TEMPTATIONS COME FROM DIFFERENT RESOURCES. FROM SATAN HIMSELF. AND REMEMBER THIS, THAT NAME, PROPER NAME REFERS TO THE PRINCE OF DEMONS, LUCIFER, THE ONE WHO FELL FROM HEAVEN. AND HE'S THE PRINCE OF DEMONS. AND THEN, YES, THERE'S OTHER DEMONS, ABSOLUTELY. KIND OF THE DOMINIONS OF EVIL. SO, YOU HAVE, AS IT WERE, YOU KNOW, SAUERON, J.R.R. TOLKIEN'S IN THE "LORD OF THE RINGS." AND HE'S THE BIG HONCHO. AND YOU HAVE ALL DOMINIONS. DECEASED. BAD INDIVIDUALS TO ORKS AND GOBLINS AND ALL THOSE THINGS THAT ARE DOMINIONS OF EVIL. AND THEY CAN BE INVOLVED IN TEMPTING AND INVOLVED IN THE WHOLE PLAN, SUGGESTION AND EVERYTHING ELSE. AND THEN, WE HAVE OURSELVES. YOU KNOW, WHAT I WOULD CALL OURSELVES, FALLING PREY TO THE CULTURE'S URGING AND THE CULTURE DOESN'T NEED THIS. THE CULTURE IS JUST FINE, PROPOSING THINGS THAT LEAD TO THE DEVIL. NOW, THAT'S NOT TO SAY THAT THE DEVIL HASN'T INSPIRED THE CULTURE AND THE CULTURE HASN'T TAKEN UP THE BAIT AND GONE WITH IT TO THE FURTHEST POSSIBLE LEAGUE. WELL, I TOTALLY BELIEVE THAT'S POSSIBLE. BUILT THERE'S ALWAYS OF THESE NATURAL WAYS IN WHICH A SIGNED KIND OF TEMPTATION CAN OCCUR WHAT I CALL THE CULTURE THROUGH MY OWN TEMPTATION TO EXPLAIN THINGS AND LOOKING AT THINGS THAT THE CULTURE WOULD MAKE AVAILABLE OR BELIEVING MYTHS THAT I KNOW TO BE SOMEWHAT FALSE AND SO FORTH AND SO ON. ALL THREE OF THESE THINGS ARE WAYS IN WHICH THE TEMPTATIONS CAN COME INTO US. OR THESE DECEITS CAN COME INTO US BUT THOSE DECEITS, RIGHT, THEY ALWAYS HAVE, YOU KNOW, SATAN AND THE DEMONS AS THEIR ORIGIN EVEN IF THEY ARE CULTURAL DECEITS, ONES THAT ARE PROPOSED BY A FRIEND OR WHATEVER IT MAY BE. GENERALLY, IT GOES BACK EVEN TO ORIGINAL SIN. GENERALLY, IT GOES BACK TO WHAT IS UNLEASHED WITHIN THE WORLD, RIGHT? YOU KNOW, WHEN WE FIRST FALL PREY WITH OUR FREE WILL TO THE SUGGESTION OF EVIL. ALL OF THESE THINGS SPRING FORTH IN THE WORLD. AND OF COURSE, IT ALMOST TOOK OVER THE ENTIRE WORLD. THERE JESUS COMES AND REVERSES THAT AND HAS GIVEN US THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THE CHURCH AND HIS WORD IN THE SCRIPTURE TO CONTINUE THE REVERSAL OF THAT. AND WE HAVE TO BE HYPER AWARE OF THAT. AND WE HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL. THAT'S WHY I SAY YOU HAVE TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN, OH, AM I A PERSON OF THE FIRST WEEK OR THE A PERSON OF THE SECOND WEEK. MOST OF THE VIEWERS OF THIS SHOW ARE PEOPLE OF THE SECOND WEEK WHICH IS WHY I SPENT SO MUCH TIME WITH IT. BECAUSE IT'S EASY TO GET DECEIVED IN THE SECOND WEEK. BUT YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THE SIGNS. GENERALLY, IT COMES IN ONE OR TWO FORMS WHERE YOU SEE THE LITTLE TAIL SLITHERING AWAY. FIRST SIGN IS, I HATE YOU OR YOU OUGHT TO HATE YOURSELF. IF YOU HEAR THAT, SOMETHING IS AMISS. IT'S NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT. AND THE SECOND TINE SIGN IS, DON'T WORRY, YOUR FREEDOM DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE AT ALL. GOD WILL FORGIVE YOU FOR IT. JUST KEEP ON GOING. NO NEED FOR ANY REAL CONSCIOUS REFORM IN YOUR LIFE. IF YOU HERE EITHER OF THOSE TWO SIDES OF THE EQUATION, RIGHT, YOU KNOW THE TAIL IS SLITHERING AWAY. THAT'S WHY YOU CAN SEE IT. AND PEOPLE OF THE SECOND WEEK, THEY NEED TO BE VERY, VERY CAREFUL. AND THERE ARE SOME INDICATIONS OF ST. IGNATIUS OF LOYOLA AND HE CAN TELL YOU WHAT THEY ARE. I WANT TO GO THROUGH THEM QUICKLY BECAUSE IT'S VERY IMPORTANT. BESIDES HEARING THE ECHO OF THOSE TWO REFRAINS THAT I JUST TALKED ABOUT, NAMELY, GOD SPEAKING, I HATE YOU AND YOU OUGHT TO HATE YOURSELF. OR ON THE OTHER HAND, DON'T WORRY ABOUT YOUR HUMAN FREEDOM, DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING. JUST KEEP ON GOING THE WAY YOU ARE GOING. GOD FORGIVES YOU ANY WAY. DON'T WORRY. AND ALSO, DON'T FEEL GUILT. IF YOU HEAR THAT, YOU KNOW YOU ARE IN TROUBLE. BUT IGNATIUS SAYS THERE'S OTHER WAYS OF TELLING. HERE'S THE BASIC RULE. WANT I WANT TO TELL YOU THE RULE FIRST FROM THE VANTAGE POINT OF THE DEVIL. IF YOU SEE IN YOURSELF A DECREASE IN THE TRUST IN GOOD, A DECREASE IN HOPE IN YOUR SALVATION OR A DECREASE IN THE CAPACITY FOR THE LOVE OR THE DESIRE TO FOLLOW CHRIST IN LOVE. IF YOU SEE YOU ARE GOING IN THAT DIRECTION, IGNATIUS CALLS THAT SPIRITUAL DESOLATION. AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT THAT MUCH MORE IN NEXT WEEK'S EPISODE. FOR THE MOMENT, RIGHT NOW, WHAT WE WANT TO SEE IS, WHAT'S A DECREASE IN TRUST? A DECREASE IN TRUST MEANS THAT I'M RUNNING FROM GOD INSTEAD OF TRYING TO CONNECT WITH THE LORD IN PRAYER. SOMEHOW, I THINK I'VE LOST FAITH THAT GOD WANTS TO SAVE ME OR GOD IS TRYING TO HELP ME. OR GOD REALLY DOES LOVE YOU OR GOD REALLY IS WORKING WITH ME, RIGHT? I'M LOSING THAT SENSE OF TRUST. AND BY THE WAY, THE PRIMARY MEANING OF FAITH IS A TRUSTING RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD SO YOU CAN SAY THAT PRAYER, LORD JESUS, I PLACE MY TRUST IN YOU. AND IF YOU FIND THAT YOU CANNOT DO THAT. IF YOU ARE FIND THAT YOU THINK THAT GOD IS HATING YOU MORE. IF YOU FIND THAT YOU THINK GOD WOULD PREFER THAT YOU FEAR HIM RATHER THAN LOVE HIM. IF YOU FIND THAT YOUR FEAR OF GOD IS GETTING SO INTENSE THAT YOU PRACTICALLY CAN'T GO OUT TO PRAYER BECAUSE YOU ARE READY TO BOLT THE MINUTE YOU KNEEL DOWN, SOMETHING IS WRONG, SAYS ST. IGNATIUS. YOU ARE IN A STATE OF SPIRITUAL DESOLATION. THAT MEANS, IF YOU ARE IN THE SECOND WEEK. IF YOU ARE TRYING TO STAY ON THE ROAD WITH THE LORD, REMEMBER, IF YOU ARE TRYING TO DEEPEN YOUR BELIEF AND TRYING TO DEEPEN YOUR MORAL CONVERSION, NIPPING THINGS IN THE BUD. IF YOU ARE TRYING TO STAY ON THE ROAD, DEEPENING YOUR RELATIONSHIP, AWARENESS OF GOD'S LOVE AND IF YOU ARE TRYING TO PRAY AND ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU FEEL A DECREASE IN TRUST IN GOD, YOU'VE BEEN HAD. YOU HAVE BEEN TAKEN BY A DARK SPIRIT WHO HAS DECEIVED YOU MOST LIKELY WITH AN EXAGGERATION. BUT THEN HE GOES FURTHER. NOT JUST A DECREASE IN JUDGMENT. IT'S A DECREASE IN THE HOPE IN YOUR SALVATION. IF YOU FIND THAT YOU ARE THINKING TO YOURSELF, WELL, GOD IS IN HEAVEN. HE'S SAYING, H-MM. HEAVEN, HELL, HEAVEN, HELL SPITZER. OH, HELL. HE DOESN'T CARE, HE COULDN'T CARE LESS. HE'S GOT NO CARE FOR YOU OR LOVE FOR YOU OR INDIFFERENT TO YOUR SALVATION, INDIFFERENT TO YOUR LOVE ABILITY. IF YOU THINK HE'S INDIFFERENT AND THEREFORE, YOUR SALVATION IS UP FOR GRABS AND NOT INVOLVED AND HIS ONLY PRIORITY IS TO SAVE YOU. IF YOU ARE THINKING THAT GOD WANTS TO CONDEMN YOU, GOD DOESN'T SEND ANYONE TO HELL. GOD IS WORRIED THAT WE ARE GOING TO CHOOSE HELL BECAUSE WE ARE DECEPTIVELY INFLUENCED BY THE DEVIL TO BELIEVING THAT THESE SEVEN DEADLY SINS OR WHATEVER ARE ABSOLUTELY NO CONSEQUENCE OR WHATEVER THE CASE MAY BE. THE CASE IS, IF WE THINK THAT GOD IS SENDING US TO HELL OR EVEN WISHES OR IS INDIFFERENT TO OUR SALVATION, WE'RE DEAD WRONG. AND THE ONLY SPIRIT THAT SAYS THAT IS THE DEVIL. AN HE'S NO HOLY SPIRIT >> Doug: AND WE'RE DEAD OUT OF TIME, FATHER! ONCE AGAIN, WE'VE MOVED AGAINST THE CLOCK. AND THE ANGELS OF LIGHT ARE GOING TO TURN THE LIGHTS OFF IF WE DON'T MOVE ON. HAVE YOU A NEW BOOK COMING OUT. WHAT'S QUICK IF BEFORE WE GO? >> LIGHT SHINES IN THE DARKNESS WITH CONTENDING -- THIS IS ON PRE ORDERS FOR AMAZON. AND FOR TODAY'S SHOW, IF YOU JUST WANT TO READ, YOU CAN GO TO THE FIVE PILLARS OF THE SPIRITUAL LIFE, READ CHAPTERS 4 AND 5 >> Doug: THIS SOUNDS LIKE HOMEWORK! OKAY. THANK YOU, FATHER. HE'S GRADING ON A CURVE. AND GOD DOES GRADE ON A CURVE. MUCH MORE AHEAD. CHECK OUT THE WONDERFUL LENTEN PROGRAM. SUFFERING AND BURNOUT, AVAILABLE THROUGH THE CATALOG AND NEXT TIME WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT AND DISCERNMENT. STAY WITH US BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO SEE YOU NEXT WEEK. MUCH MORE AHEAD. ♪
