Debate: The West Should Cut Ties With Saudi Arabia

hello and welcome welcome to the emmanuel center on this cold wintry night here in London for what I am sure will be an impassioned intelligence squared debate absolutely fantastic that we have pretty well a full house tonight to debate the motion the West should cut ties with Saudi Arabia this is an issue many of you will know which came into sharp focus in October with the murder of this prominent Saudi journalist Jamal khashoggi and the crime is not going away last night millions of people saw Jamal smiling face during an ad which appeared during America's premier sporting event the Superbowl and the issue is not going away when it comes to relations be it political military economic diplomatic with the Saudi Kingdom and its de facto ruler Mohammed bin Salman the crown prince Saudi Arabia is the driving force in a devastating war in Yemen but a carries great political weight across the region and beyond its carrying out unprecedented social and economic reform but there's continuing restrictions on women's rights and repression of dissent and Saudi Arabia matters when it comes to global oil and financial markets the ties matter but should they be kept or should they be cut ladies and gentlemen that is our motion for tonight all of you who came in here tonight have already voted on the motion we will soon hear the opening speeches of our excellent panel and then I will announce the results of the first vote all of what you had to say when you came in here tonight then there be your questions from the floor excellent questions I'm sure concise and to the point please don't make the Democratic moderator into a dictator a third speaker for the motion is Mehdi Hassan known I'm sure to many of you prominent journalists outspoken broadcaster a star of al Jazeera television he's the host of up front and head-to-head he is also a columnist for the intercept he's host of the deconstruct broadcast podcast and our first speaker tonight ladies and gentlemen ladies and gentlemen good evening I stand before you tonight to make the case for the motion and as I do a number of names and faces flashed through my mind people are counting on me and on you tonight to speak for them in this debate to give them a voice tonight with your votes Lou Jane al-hilal for example a young women's rights activist who was jailed in 2014 for trying to drive her car in Saudi Arabia upon her release from prison she went to live in the UAE where last March she was grabbed on the side of the freeway put in cuffs thrown on a private jet and taken back to Saudi Arabia against her will today aged just 29 years old she sits behind bars for the temerity of asking for women to have the right to drive Lou Jane according to her sister as we speak tonight is being held in solitary confinement where she's been beaten waterboarded electrocuted sexually harassed and threatened with rape and murder Israel of AMA gong is also 29 years old she's a young Shiite human rights activist arrested with her husband in 2015 for carrying out peaceful protest not for anything violent and yet Saudi prosecutors are seeking to behead her to execute her she would be the first female human rights activists to be executed in this way according to Human Rights Watch Ezra has not been charged or convicted with any acts of violence or even anything quote resembling recognizable crimes the blogger Raef Badawi had his 35th birthday last month behind bars he hasn't seen his kids for seven years he was sentenced for the crime of apostasy to ten years in prison and a thousand lashes lashes fifty of which he's already had to endure his wife says his health has deteriorated in prison and he won't survive another round of flogging flogging Amal Hussein was seven years old a little girl in Yemen the same age as my daughter she posed a threat to no one and yet there she wasn't that harrowing photo in the New York Times last November her emaciated body her stick-like arms within a week of that report she was dead literally starved to we in the West saw her picture we saw her haunting eyes and yet we did nothing to help her we've done nothing to help the other 1.8 million severely malnourished children in Yemen who are suffering from a famine and they cover a crisis caused by a Saudi imposed blockade and then there's Jamal khashoggi Jamal who was sitting with me in the green room and al-jazeera English last March as we joked about his security while the crown prince was in town in DC less than seven months later he was dead brutally murdered inside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul his body allegedly cut to pieces with a bone saw and murdered remember according even to the CIA on the direct orders of the Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman ladies and gentlemen let's not forget these people tonight in this debate Lou Jane Ezra rafe Amal Jamal people who have been killed dismembered tortured flogged imprisoned starved sexually assaulted at the hands of our ally our close friend the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia tonight we come together to demand accountability to demand justice to demand an end to impunity an end to economic and political blackmail tonight it's time we make clear that the West needs to cut its ties with Saudi Arabia especially military ties arms sales weapons exports bombs now I'm guessing we'll hear a lot of what about ISM tonight from the opposition a lot of excuse making from the opposition what about Qatar what about Turkey what about Iran defenders of Saudi Arabia often say and those countries yes have major human rights abuses trust me I know I've interviewed the leaders of all of them including the Potteries and ask them about those human rights issues but let's be clear tonight's debate is about Saudi Arabia don't allow yourself to be distracted by the opposition but also here's the thing to remember when it comes to dictatorship when it comes to women's rights when it comes to the export of extremism and sectarianism when it comes to the funding of terrorism none of those other countries come close to Saudi Arabia the Saudis are the premier league champions at this stuff we all know that it's not breaking news I doubt even the Saudi defenders here in this hall tonight will contest this point they know it what they'll try and say to you I'm guessing is that yes knowing what we know about Saudi Arabia we should all be concerned we should all be upset we should all be outraged but we shouldn't do anything about it we certainly shouldn't cut any of our ties because remember the what about ISM what about the cost of cutting ties with Saudi Arabia they'll say what about the fact that our economies need Saudi Arabia which isn't a fact by the way it's complete hyperbole in 2017 US exports to Saudi Arabia accounted for a whopping 1.1 percent of US exports in 2016 here in the UK British exports to Saudi Arabia accounted for 1.3 percent of overall UK exports worldwide what about the oil they say well the United States is now the world's biggest producer of oil in fact the US has produced more oil than Saudi Arabia for four straight years in a row by the way isn't it about time we stopped allowing the Saudis to use their oil to try and blackmail the rest of the world what about intelligence sharing they say what about the war on terror President Trump said last November that we can't abandon the Saudis because and I quote they're leading the fight against radical Islamic terrorism what are you kidding me we're supposed to thank them for trying to sort out the terrorism problem that they helped start and before we forget Saudi Arabia is a load on the ground in Yemen right now with al Qaeda they're working with al Qaeda on the ground according to reporting both by the BBC and The Associated Press they're also the second largest source of foreign fighters to Isis two and a half thousand Saudis have signed up with that group and as a leaked US State Department Cable famously put it donors in Saudi Arabia constitute the most significant source of funding to certainly terrorist groups worldwide so ladies and gentlemen asking the Saudis to help lead the fight against terrorism is like asking the Mafia to help lead the fight against organized crime it's like asking Donald Trump and his kids to lead the fight against nepotism and corruption it's absurd let's be serious here there is a reason why the Algerian novelist Kemal diode famously wrote that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is basically an Isis that's made it an isis that's made it so why why why are we so closely allied with such a kingdom well what about Iran they say we need Saudi Arabia against Iran even though the last time I checked there were 15 Saudis on those planes not 15 Iranians but even if you're worried about the threat posed by Iran note how every step that the Saudis have taken in recent years has helped and empowered Iran they bombed Yemen and pushed the Houthi rebels closer into the arms of Iran they they blockaded butter and pushed got their own Iran together they prompted the Iraqi government to invite in Iranian militias to fight in Iraq against insurgent groups many of whom were quietly backed by the Saudis MBs mr. bonesaw himself the Saudi Crown Prince who was behind almost all of those decisions he's basically the reverse - everything he turned everything he touches turns to [ __ ] right it's the reverse - effect and that is the ally that's the ally we need to cut ties but that's the man the ruler who we need to keep our distance from both metaphorically and physically and let's be clear this is not attack this is not about attacking Saudi Arabia the country I want to be clear tonight or being aunty the Saudi people it's about standing up to an out-of-control and pernicious Saudi government in fact we've screwed over the Saudi people for decades opposition groups religious minorities women's rights activists journalists dissidents we have thrown them under the bus by cozying up to the Saudi regime by propping up the Saudi regime by deepening our ties with Riyadh instead of cutting down our ties with Riyadh let's also be clear about the wording of this admittedly awkwardly worded motion that we have before us cut ties doesn't mean blockade them or bomb them it doesn't mean we treat Saudi Arabia like Saudi Arabia treats Yemen we're not calling for regime change either but what it does mean is we know treat them as our BFF in the Middle East we no longer supply them with bombs that they then use with our assistance to flatten schools hospitals bakeries flour mills power stations across the poorest country their Arab world it means we no longer cover for them at the United Nations or help get them a seat on the UN Human Rights Council as David Cameron so shamelessly did it means we do not call on our governments to roll out the red carpet for the Saudis every time they come to town as Crispin literally did on the BBC last March roll out the red carpet for NBS that's what we mean by cutting ties tonight that's what we're arguing for that's what we want you to vote for tonight because ladies no man there's a lot of people out there watching this debate they're gonna be watching on YouTube elsewhere Saudi princes Saudi trolls arms dealers the torture is outside Luger now hospitals prison cell we need to send them a message tonight we draw a line in the sand and we say no more we will not allow you to thumb your nose at international law we will not allow you to ignore basic global norms of decency and human rights we will not allow you to get away with cold-blooded murder in Istanbul we will not allow you to strangle an entire country and create the biggest humanitarian crisis in the world ladies and gentlemen you all know full well that is well past time to draw that line in the sand to cut ties with Saudi Arabia so stop treating them as a lie a friend when they are none of the above send that message tonight vote for the motion tonight thank you very much for your time your hands look at tired if you clap too long for every speaker ladies and gentlemen our first speaker against the motion who very much enjoyed Mehdi Hassan's intervention Mamun Fondy Egyptian born expert on the Middle East eloquent speaker or so they say he's the president of the London think-tank London global strategy Institute and he's the author of Saudi Arabia and the politics of dissent mom would find his interest I'm told include politics of the Arab world terrorism and radical Islamic politics regional security issues in the region and definitely intelligence squared since he came out of his sick bed tonight to join us please welcome him latest thank you good evening and I would like to thank the organizers very much for inviting me to participate in this I have to admit it's certainly very difficult to come after the young and handsome body with a full head of hair to argue against the motion I would like to really take issues with three areas that I would like to debate calmly and dispassionately one one is the issue of should the West should the worst cut ties with Saudi Arabia what West when we're talking about an international system made of nation-states an international order that's made of international law so the idea that there is something called a West suggests a great deal of hierarchy in values that the west can act on behalf of international law on behalf of humanity that Africa doesn't exist Asia doesn't exist nowhere else the morally superior West can act on behalf of everybody else and cut ties with with Saudi Arabia I mean we've seen how the West acts in 2003 on the attack on Iran and if the case of the horrible murder of Jamar yogi in Istanbul and the alleged cut off parts of his body as my dessert one can all do also look at Abu Ghraib prisons worse did the West cut ties with the United States the United States was the unisys brought to an international crime tribunal for these abuses so the idea of really just creating a special yardsticks for countries that we don't like is not very helpful for the notion of international law and my dear friend Maddy said he is not really against Saudi Arabia and he is not insulting Saudi Arabia but in the same breath he said Saudi Arabia's and Isis that made it so it is the same attitude that people take if you don't like a country can use epithets and so on just to make a point now Saudi Arabia is certainly not a Jeffersonian democracy but Saudi Arabia is a country that's made out of the desert sand and it continued probably for the last 300 years various generations and it's very important for Muslims worldwide for 1 billion Muslims who pray 5 times to Mecca every day Saudi Arabia is very important so the idea of just taking Saudi Arabia lightly like any other small state like talking about small Lincoln Stein or pinene or something like that then we're really missing the whole point Saudi Arabia is also as least pointed out very central to the stability of the global order of energy and all of us those who old enough remember the cutting of oil in the war in 1973 the boycott by the Arab states and the kind of devastating effect that created for the international economy Saudi Arabia is also very important for regional stability it is not a small state it's a very important state and I don't think we should throw the baby with the bathwater because one horrible crime was committed I take issues with my friend Maddy who made a point of Gamal khashoggi and Gamal in the same way that he's a friend of Marty's a friend of mine and it pains me to talk about him that way but I would remind my teeth at the same probably two days later after the death of the Mahakali or the disappearance of the Malkovich Joey a Bulgarian journalist Victoria Minerva was killed raped and murdered in Sofia nobody helped the the regime in Bulgaria accountable EE even talked about it or mentioned it because we just measure global issues with different yardsticks I don't mind at all that we call on Saudi Arabia to respect human rights and so they're able to abide by the rule of law but certainly we don't give a pass for everybody else because we don't like Saudi Arabia very importantly I think all of us have to reflect on on on some of these issues when when one talks about should the west again should the West cut off ties with Saudi Arabia is very much like saying should Canada lead on the problem in Venezuela I mean this is these are non-starters in real politic and the world of sane men and women who considered the world at large not one single issue at a time I wonder those of you who want the West to cut off ties can tell me how do we cut off ties and did it work anywhere else I mean the United States cut off ties with Cuba for god knows how many years half a century and Cuba remain Castro remained and Cuba became worse the conditions of the Cuban people did not improve the United States car of relationship with Iran since the Revolution of 1979 the Iranian regime still with us 14 years later the United States cut off ties with North Korea embarked in ice trying to cut deals with with West Korea so when we talk about how can we do this I mean as sane reasonable people it's reasonable to call in Saudi Arabia to respect human rights it is reasonable to have very targeted sanctions against individuals for who committed crimes but it is not reasonable to just isolate a whole country secondly argue against Marty here first of all in the world of sovereign Stein's where every nation is sovereign has its own laws and regulations why Saudi Arabia is different sorry Reba came to us and said there is half judicial process in place to try those who committed the crime in Istanbul what's wrong with waiting for this process to end I understand a chuckle here and a chat over but I think as sane people we have to have a respect for National Mall as well as international law but the idea of a crowd deciding all of us did scut off relationship with this country or that country with no respect for international law or no no respect for national law then we are in the world of a jungle I mean how do we organize a very complex international community along those lines of the winners are the people that the crowd decides who how to punish people this is just basically unacceptable in a very complex world Saudi Arabia decided that it will take issues with those committed the crime now all of us there is a great deal of assumptions the the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia is behind this thing I would like to see video or an audio or something like that that links Mohammed bin Salman to this crime I have yet to say I mean this is here we are in quote-unquote the West where there is due process and and people are innocent until proven guilty somehow we decided this man order things and he is absolutely guilty for committing this crime making it making these leaps and jumps just defies reason and and I think my problems somebody who came from Egypt who got education in the West and believed in quote/unquote the values of the West I still believe that people are innocent until proven guilty but just jumping frog hopping here and there try to dink points that are not linked to satisfy and revenge that's burning inside us and taking some scapegoat somewhere and linking a whole regime in the whole country to one crime I think it's just I would probably refer it as immature and romantic notion of international politics please the gentleman Mahmud Fundy also young also handsome our second speaker for the motion professor but are we all receive he's a leading thinker on Saudi Arabia she is from the kingdom and her latest book is salman legacy the dilemma of a new era in saudi arabia but how al Rasheed is the professor of social anthropology in the Middle East center at the London School of Economics ladies and gentlemen she has debated two other times this very issue that we confront tonight she won one debate she lost one debate three times lucky or unlucky ladies and gentlemen up to you to decide badal we are Rashid good evening ladies and gentlemen it's a pleasure for me to participate in this debate for the third time I will keep doing it as long as I have to and thank you for inviting me to be part of this panel as you have noticed I am the only woman on the panel and I'm also the only Saudi person on the panel but let me put the Saudi word in inverted commas because I need to tell you about a little history that is very personal I came to Britain in 1983 as a young student who wanted to pursue her education and the most esteemed universities in Britain I went to Cambridge I did my master and also I did my PhD as I finished my PhD in social anthropology looking at the history of Saudi Arabia my father got a phone call from nobody but Prince Salman at the time he was the governor of Riyadh and Prince Salman conveyed the information to my father that if I published my PhD thesis I will be subjected to disciplinary action whatever that means well of course I went ahead and published my dissertation and published another 1415 books after I remain I remain Saudi living in Britain moving to different jobs becoming a professor at the British universities here in London first at King's College and then I moved to LSE but in 2005 I got another phone call from my father who was informed by the king of Saudi Arabia that my salary nationality was withdrawn sir luckily I was a British citizen by that stage why was it withdrawn because I went on television to object to the fact that Saudi women were deprived of participating as voters and candidates in the municipal elections we're not talking here about national elections a parliament god forbid because in the South the Islamic tradition our Constitution is the Quran and there is no need for elected parliament because the King knows it all and he can decide for everybody so I lost my Saudi passport but my story is not unique you probably have heard in the last two weeks the story about raha falcone hoon who escaped from Saudi Arabia ended up in Thailand and then Canada luckily accepted her as an asylum seeker according to the United Nation UNHCR there are now 2 over 2000 Saudi asylum seekers going to the United States to Canada and Britain so this wealthy country where we are told that British expats love to go and work on there and earn untaxed salaries are want to go to that country we find that the Saudi men and women are leaving the country so if you're worried about migration and asylum seekers we are heading towards a crisis in Saudi Arabia today Saudi Arabia is pressure cooker on the verge of implosion simply because the so-called reforms of the Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman who is held by the international media from the New York time to the Washington Post to our press here in Britain is the great revolutionary reformer he allows Saudis to go to concerts and he allows women to attend football matches if accompanied by their male Guardians so this top-down revolution that is happening is producing asylum seekers is producing the people the real people who have been mentioned by my colleague Mehdi Hassan so from women activists from that people who are simply tweeting people who are at university my colleague hatun al fasi she studied in Manchester University she is an archaeologist specializing in deciphering the inscription of the Nabatean civilization in the north of Saudi Arabia that Mohammed bin Salman wants to become a tourist attraction encouraging you the educated audience to go and see these archaeological sites each specializes in deciphering the inscriptions of this ancient civilization she is now in prison and has been since June 2018 her crime nobody knows according to the Saudi Press we have the front pages of this cell do newspapers talking about these women activists who had been put in jail as traitors as agents of foreign governments I myself are is called also a traitor an agent of the British intelligence services simply because I write books enjoy the freedom of speech that this country allows me and my own country deprives me of so if we're talking I do agree with my colleague Mamoon when we say the West I don't like these generalizations in as much as I don't like the idea that there is a Muslim world out there or an Arab world no we're talking about individual countries in Britain for example we are always told that we can't shun those people who torture their own citizens who bomb other countries we have to have constructive engagement with them a dialogue with them my colleague here the right honourable gentleman Crispin asked the Saudi embassy to allow him to go to Saudi Arabia or allow a team to investigate the alleged torture of women activists and what did the Saudi embassy do didn't reply I understand sir the constructive engagement is supposed to in the British government's rhetoric successive government is meant to do behind the door diplomacy and be it talk about the British citizens who are tortured in Saudi prisons we won't talk about them publicly but we will put pressure on the Saudi government to change its behavior so far I do not see any change of behavior women activists are put in prison tortured also and I cannot see that this situation has changed so the domestic situation is really bad but we can't express or expect different Western government to cut ties with Saudi Arabia by cutting ties I mean the different Western governments should suspend their unconditional support for the Saudi regime and underline the word unconditional support so when MBS 4 does the killing of a journalist he until now we don't give him an ultimatum whereas we give the Venezuelan president and ultimatum to have elections and we don't regard that as interfering in the sovereignty of the Venezuelan people but when it comes to Saudi Arabia oh no no we can't interfere because those people are ruled by Sharia some kind of Islamic law that they are not like us we exhaust sighs them we make Saudis look as if they are extraterrestrial that they are governed by a law that is not shared by humanity when the Saudi regime abuses its own people it's violating international values and norms and we have to be responsible for that at the international level how do we boycott a country how do you put pressure on a country well my friend gave the example of Cuba but remember that Britain the US are the main suppliers of the weapons that Saudi Arabia uses to destabilize the region rather than create stability in Lebanon they forced their prime minister to resign to precipitate a crisis in Bahrain they intervened to derail the democracy impulse in 2011 and in Qatar they fractured the solidarity of Gulf countries in Yemen I don't need to tell you about Yemen the poorest country of the Arab world so ladies and gentlemen you are an educated audience your vote is extremely important because you're sending a message to our government here in Britain and around the world as this debate will be seen by so many people outside this country you are sending a debate rejecting this unconditional support the carte blanche that the Saudi regime gets from different Western countries thank you very much thank you too Madhavi al-rasheed last but not least our last speaker against the motion Crispin Blount regarded as one of the most experienced foreign policy voices in the UK Parliament of course you may say how many foreign policy voices are there in the UK Parliament it's a voice that's often heard on Saudi Arabia as Madhavi Al Rashid mentioned he was part of an MP's panel that went to Saudi Arabia to consider the jail conditions for Saudi women activists it was published today and concluded that their jail conditions could be akin to torture he's the Conservative MP for Reigate chair and he was chair of the House of Commons Foreign Affairs Select Committee from 2015 to 2017 welcome to crisp and blunt against the thank you very much for that introduction and good evening ladies and gentlemen many thanks to intelligence squared for organizing its debate and inviting me to speak on the side of the of the opposition nothing bumpy about this particular track I'm battling on but many thanks to the previous speakers who have Illustrated many of the issues at stake here and during my 21 years as a Conservative member of parliament I have consistently defended the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia's important relationship with the United Kingdom and I have supported continuing UK arms exports to the saudi-led coalition operating with unanimous international endorsement in the Yemen and indeed as was been pointed out I did welcome the visit of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman to the UK last year and I suspect many of you without knowing who I am seeing that a Conservative member of parliament was arguing against this motion might have been unsurprised unchallenged by your expectations however I hope you are ready to hear a more nuanced point of view and that I can challenge your expectations now I first met Mohammed bin Salman when leading a commons Foreign Affairs Committee on a visit to Riyadh in December 2015 and over a meeting lasting an hour and a half I confess I was impressed by his strategic grass man his ability to engage on all questions on on all fronts I've also made countless diplomatic and parliamentary visits to the region since 1993 when I became the foreign secretaries then special advisor so I hope I have a decent understanding of the realities of the region at least by parliamentary standards therefore it is I who perhaps am most disappointed with the current state of the kingdom and I have acute anxieties for its future and the implications that has for the region and to that end I hope you will have the chance to glance at this report that I am to parliamentary colleagues Leyla Moran and dr. Paul Williams have published today it was a tenshun review panel examining the conditions of eight female detainees and four of their male supporters and indeed the name that Mehdi gave first in his speech is the first listed here whose case we reviewed and I accepted the task of reviewing the detention conditions of these women's rights activists and their male supporters partly because I hoped I would command the confidence of both Saudi Arabia and its critics are actually being fair I'm the man who chaired a Foreign Affairs Committee report on brakes it three times three different reports and brought them all home unanimously despite a committee split down the middle and I hoped that my engagement with the Gulf monarchies and public appreciation for the stability those rulers have brought to the Gulf Cooperation Council would lead to cooperation from their Kingdom emphasizing the panel's honest and independent nature however as I've already made clear I am incredibly disappointed by the series of events that lie behind tonight's debate and the murder of Jamal khashoggi provides the most gruesome backdrop and lease are made clear that our report can take concluded that the detainees have been subjected to cruel and inhumane treatments including sleep deprivation assault threats to life and solitary confinement and their treatment is likely to amount to torture and if they are not providing with urgent access to medical assistance they are at risk of developing long-term health conditions torture is a crime of universal jurisdiction and no nation that can claim to be a liberal democracy can in all conscience allow such heinous crimes to go unanswered so of course we must evaluate our ties with Saudi Arabia we must show the benefits of openness on society we have a duty to help Britain has levers of influence in the kingdom and we should be intent on pulling them to influence where we can indeed I believe we have a moral responsibility to do so the picture in Saudi Arabia is as complex as the personality of its young crown prince the moves of Mohammed bin Salman towards economic reform with vision 2030 have been accompanied by wider social reform the removal of arrest powers from the religious police they have actually prepared the legislation for the easing of male guardianship laws although it remains to be implemented and the granting of women's right to drive and the opening of public places or of entertainment stands as an incongruous contradiction when you lock up the individuals who were calling for these things in the first place and I want to state very plainly that the attitude and the actions of the kingdom cannot be tolerated and it has to be seen how our government in 2019 will recast its relations with Saudi Arabia not only in the light of the murder Jamarcus og but with the active suppression of civil society that should accompany any claims of a monarchy that wishes to be at least overtly consultative but we must address the motion itself I agree with the analysis about the term of the West and how difficult that is so I'm going to focus principally on the United Kingdom but cutting ties which I interpret is cutting all ties otherwise this debate is simply about semantics is a rare step in a diplomatic ass indeed a full unambiguous severing of ties is not a simple action we reserve such decisions for countries we are at war with or who seek to subvert our institutions the United Kingdom expelled 23 Russian diplomats in the wake of Russia's proved involvement in the attempted murder of the scree files and the death of dawn sturgis sending a strong diplomatic signal that Russia is a bad faith international actor and I am now under no illusions that the status quo with Saudi Arabia is acceptable however cutting all ties would amount to both self harm and harm to the cause of reform in Saudi Arabia but cutting some ties in certain areas may and indeed should be carried out but defense our principle relationship illustrates the dilemma I've historically offended British arms tails to the kingdom and although a revaluation of our defense relationship must be on the table severing this link would probably be highly detrimental to global security in the long term whilst obviously painful for our economy and defense industry but more importantly we live in a loose liberal democratic rules based world order underpinned by NATO the u.s. security on umbrella and of course the United Nations this has not always been the case and indeed it may be in reverse indeed as a liberal democracy we should do all in our power to prevent more authoritarian countries who place less value on the rule of law from becoming the dominant paradigm of the world cutting totally defense ties with Saudi Arabia would be a gift to increasing the values of China and Russia on the world stage right now we have been able to improve their conduct of the Yemen operation and help them bring the Houthis and themselves and their allies to the peace table one of the ironies of the relative ineffectiveness of the Saudi military efforts that have seen thousands die is that millions are now at the risk of starvation and I don't think that's anything many of this in this room would wish for a full disengagement with Saudi Arabia's armed forces will remove whatever British oversight exists and do you really want to drive Saudi Arabia towards the re-education camps of Jang Jing of Russian conduct in Chechnya and Syria and that these countries who place such wretchedly low value on human rights the integrity of the individual and the rule of law but let me illustrate with another dilemma over justice I was dismayed when in 2015 Britain cancelled the contract for the Ministry of Justice to provide training for prison staff in Saudi Arabia which had the admirable goal of providing advice on the improvement of its detention system and I still maintain that that cancellation was populist nonsense and whilst it may have been popular and achieved nothing but a sense of moral satisfaction for the United Kingdom we were able to assure ourselves that we had no part of plan a justice system which execute for offenses that might not even be crimes in the United Kingdom but we gave up on the chance to improve the Saudi prison system and people don't respond well when they're scorned for doing something wrong no one likes to be told on a bad day even me that they're wrong it's much better to offer a solution to engage and to explain to the other side why an alternative might be better megaphone diplomacy and the noisy condo nations will always be heard humiliating the decision-makers of course public shaming and isolation of offending regimes has a place and can be a spur to progress but in our instance thumbing our noses sadly prisons merely hardened their attitudes and leading to the current wretched state of detention which was one of the reasons I was happy to chair this panel now Saudi Arabia has acknowledged once upon a time under King Abdullah who said that reason rules the world ethics rules the world and these can rule the world this can and should be the case but we need to drag Mohammed bin Salman along these lines with Oliver parts of pressure we can adopt otherwise we have the prospect of an absolute monarchy ruled ruling terror totally closing down the space for civil society in Saudi Arabia and in the end there will be revolution and what will follow will be infinitely worse than what they have now ladies and gentlemen a big thank you Crispin Blunt for speaking against the motion and a big thank you to all of our speakers please give them another round of applause excellent speakers on a very important motion the West should cut ties with Saudi Arabia this is how you voted when you came in the Emmanuel Center this evening for the vote 41% of you said the West should cut ties with Saudi Arabia 41% twenty two of you were against and a big 37 percent of you came into this hall tonight undecided and perhaps you are making up your mind right now and I was a time for you to ask your questions where's number one where my number one who's gonna have the the honor of asking the first excellent question hi thank you so much I thought it was a really interesting debate and like I'm really glad that I attended I wanted to ask that the speakers for the motion that if the West does cut ties with Saudi Arabia which I like agree with all of your points how do we ensure that the same thing doesn't happen in terms of civil war like has happened in other Arab nations thank you right over here number two a related point which which is that we're very concerned in this country about the cutting of ties between Britain and Europe which could come about through a brexit if we have this cutting of ties between the west and Saudi Arabia what comes after this Saudi Arabia is such a central pillar of such an unstable part of the world that proposition have completely failed to talk about what comes if they succeed in their desire to get to change a regime which they see as being abhorrent thank you and way in the back number three it was question for mr. Blum you talked about countries that seek to subvert our institutions but when bae systems were investigated for bribing saudi officials the psy.d government threatened British lives on British streets and it was withdrawn so I don't see them respecting our institutions for some punch we'll have a minute to think about that Midori al-rasheed the first two questions were Buffy the same what will happen it could be civil war could be something worse if ties are cuts no well the assumption that if the Saudi regime Falls then we're gonna have a civil war like in Syria and Libya etc but we forget that the Saudi regime itself played an incredible central role in turning syria into a sectarian war rather than a pre democracy movement that wanted to gain all the rights that we enjoy here the saudis were the second cohort of jihadis who went to Syria to derail that impulse towards democracy and Saudi Arabia is not just about conservatives and about jihadis of course the name the Saudi regime is associated with violence that is practiced by terrorists in the name of Islam but inside did a study of a group of Saudis who are who were calling for civil society exactly what Christian was talking about those people had all been imprisoned let's take the question the question was but whatever your disagreements with the kingdom now if you cut ties it will get worse what can I jump in on the stability point I mean the stability point Mamun mentioned it as well sorry what stability if you checked out the Middle East recently what stability we're referring to so yes a central pillar of an unstable region also one of the central causes of the instability in that region and you say we didn't make the case Midori went through the list Lebanon they kidnapped the Prime Minister allegedly MBS slapped him around Qatar they undermined the Gulf Cooperation Council with a blockade that hasn't worked two years later Syria madhavi's made the point they helped ferment the jihadist part of the opposition we all know what's happening in Yemen where they're literally working with al-qaeda on the ground I thought we were worried about al-qaeda I thought we were fighting a war on terror for 17 years of course don't forget Saudi Arabia is one of the key forces with Netanyahu in Israel and John Bolton wanting to push for a new war in the Middle East in Iran which will make you rock there like a walk-in the boss so what pillars answer to the question will it get worse you cut ties you're focusing on what there is now I'm not gonna play counterfactuals it's worse now we're complicit in a war in Yemen now I want to stop our complicity now not not deal with kind of hypotheticals that it might get worse it's horrible now and Saudis a big part of that once we heard question about the BAE Systems and what you call constructive engagement is she mentions threats I confess I haven't heard the explicit Saudi threat to British citizens on British on British streets however what I am pleased about is the fact that our country not only has the toughest arms exports controls alright that I found globally but also has passed both parties supported the passing the bribery act in in 2010 to make sure that our standards are consistently the highest the highest in the world there will always have been things wrong in the in the past of course of course there have but what we need to what we need to be committed to is consistent improvement and what we also need to be committed to is to try and rescue Saudi Arabia from the threat in the end of revolution and if revolution happens in Saudi Arabia do not think that there is going to be some nice cosy regime perhaps led by the Al Rashid family who replaced by the sides in the first very first part of the 20th century what will follow is like it's likely to be very very ugly indeed very briefly and ask Crispin one quick question in your speech you spent the you spent the second half of your speech telling us that we have levers of influence over Saudi Arabia and you ended by saying it is much better to engage and explain and you spent the first half of your speech telling us how the Saudis wouldn't let you in I want you a walking example of why engagement an explanation doesn't work you should be on this side of the house tonight surely and that and obviously that depends on your definition of ties I am against cutting all ties with sadly rates and of course there needs to be measures taken against Saudi Arabia for obviously the appalling murder of Jamarcus yogi but it is but it is but it is it is right to wait for at least there is a Saudi justice system operating putting on trial for what happened there in total in total difference to any to the Russian view as to what they did about the the attempt to murder the street bars and indeed the Honorable ladies and gentlemen of the floor question number four I am thank you so much for everybody so tonight it's been fascinating and firstly and so crispin I just want to take issue with the attitude you say that Britain has a civilizing influence on Saudi and there seems slightly almost harken back to colonial times to myself I mean given the fact that we have the war in Yemen as discussed atrocities wrote upon its own people and this just seems patently false but my question really is that because the u.s. alliance with Saudi is a large in a large degree two part of its blanket support for Israel against Iran in the region what will it take to remove the support right here question every tube from the floor north Korea has it's useful idiots in the UK and probably elsewhere in the form of tourists tour operators and travel writers who do their damnedest to whitewash the regime or to delude visitors that they're seeing the real North Korea if Saudi opens up to tourism isn't that a risk of the same thing happening doing immeasurable harm to those of us who are campaigning for human rights there so I'd like to ask one or both of the speakers for the motion to say what can be done to prevent tourism taking over okay one let's take this gentleman here right in the front row and then we have one in the back the debates been very much framed in terms of human rights but I'd like to ask the audience to change the paradigm and look at this from a perspective of what is in the the real political interests of Britain is Saudi a threat or not to the UK the export of terrorism from Saudi religious fundamentalism etc and how would Saudi compared to other significant countries in the region if I were to March and coming down to earth why is it that the West is historically so close to Saudi Arabia as opposed to other regimes in the region which might appear to be more liberal okay and we're gonna take one here in this corner very good this is to the opposition do you not think that by not cutting ties with Saudi Arabia we are telling authoritarian regimes that they can essentially do what they want and that the West what moral responsibilities are essentially worthless when it really matters someone would you would you like to respond to the question I'd like to respond to my 31st because I think Mandy made a point but I'd like Saudi Arabia almost the ISIS that made it all the time and this most horrible country on the face of alright but the point is imagine I mean if Saudi Arabia goes radical as he imagined it it would make Isis look like the Green Party of Germany I challenge the opposition it is challenged the opposition if they count if they can name more than the eight women activists in Saudi prisons I challenge them beyond legend as well but in the region where countries in the neighborhoods have sixty thousand fifty thousand political prisoners these are I'm not saying - what I'm saying is there is a principle of proportionality a country of 23 million has a women that's does Crispin's report not bother you bothers me but what I'm saying is that we have to be mature enough to know the countries in the region it ran for example has like a hundred thousand to to the prisons Egypt my home country has between fifty and sixty political thousands so let's come back to having it again Saudi Arabia is insane I mean just like politically insane - you don't give you know I applaud you for taking the moral high ground and one would it kind of expect nothing less one would hope of a young idealist asking you a question like that the only [Music] I look quite sure why I said something wrong and describing which the young the young Toriyama he I rather I rather hope you're an idealist but no but the problem but the problem for policy makers is if you camp out on the moral high ground and you absolve yourself of responsibility so what follows you may then have to cope with what is going to follow because you've taken that option it is in many ways it'll be the easy thing to do to say that we should cut all ties and have nothing more to do with them but then we have nothing more to do with the consequences of what will follow and I am profoundly anxious about what may now happen in Saudi Arabia and I think we should be bending every effort to try and get Saudi Arabia back onto a track towards progress that is both economic progress and also social progress his specific question was and we should have yeah mr. tsuda question was won't it send a signal to others that they can get away with it not just Saudi Arabia will have a ripple effect and the consequence of what we do will then be to drive them into the hands of nations like Russia and China whose moral code is not one that I think any of us should want to share or support and that would be the consequence of taking of taking that position it's the world is full of horrible hard choices lady would you like to take the human rights question just the question which is which is why is there a threat all of this is being focused on human rights we had a gentleman asking well what threat is there to the United Kingdom I mean I completely agree I mean we I don't I don't I didn't push it in my speech because you know I have an issue with the whole war on terror discourse but I do find it odd the people on the right who told us for years that we should be worried about terrorists under every bet who tell us that Muslims are all extremists who tell us that mosques of funding radicalism don't seem to care that one of the major countries perhaps the major country behind a lot of the ideology is Saudi Arabia that's what even right-wing think tanks like Henry Jackson Freddie which I'm no fan of produce reports saying Saudi Arabia is the foremost chief proponent of Islamist funding in the UK so I do find that to be a problem and this is not just a moral point the young gentleman a very good point this is not just about morality you talk about this is about consequences if you say to them you can do whatever you want if they kidnap the Lebanese Prime Minister if they blockade Qatar if they carry on funding jihadists in Syria if they kill journalists in consulate British citizens accusing them of manufacturing alcohol putting them in Saudi jails so we're talking about 30,000 British expats who live in Saudi but if they do all this without any consequence that is a problem and sorry this is not about liberal or young people Lindsey Graham Senator Lindsey Graham who you know well one of the most hawkish Republican members of the Senate hardcore supporter of Saudi Arabia says and I quote we don't want to give a green light to others that they can go down this road he says he will not support Saudi Arabia while it is run by this reckless crown prince and he is no liberal would you like to know we're not asking every British citizen in this whole to care about the plight of Saudi detainees yes I don't want to get stuck in a human rights argument we are realists we understand politics but it is in the interest of the British people not to have unconditional support for air gym like Saudi Arabia in 1980 somebody asked the question about how they corrupt our institutions here in Britain you're absolutely right in 1980 Saudi Arabia cut diplomatic relations with Britain because there was a brief film shown on one of the British channel called death of Princess about a princess who wanted to marry a commoner and she was beheaded right so nine months of no diplomatic relations between Saudi Arabia and Britain in just last summer when a Canadian foreign minister criticized the detention of women activists what did Saudi Arabia do morons they kicked out the Canadian ambassador and and Germany criticized Saudi Arabia when it tried to destabilize Lebanon what happened they canceled all the armed cells with Germany Sweden again women activists the plight of women activists and the situation in Saudi Arabia was criticized in Sweden and immediately they call the passport yes Saudi Arabia doesn't behave in a civilized manner when it comes to diplomatic relations yes Britain didn't cut diplomatic relations with Russia after they killed they attempted to kill two Russians and on our soil here but Saudi Arabia is very quick to to cut relations with Britain if Britain uttered one word of criticism if we take the example of Canada and the rest of the so exhausting there was a question to you about your use of the word civilizing influence and question which was looking also at the relationship but let's be clear the last thing I'm arguing for is unconditional support for for Saudi Arabia roll out the red carpet for MBS yes because that is not that is not the same thing and having having having having message to Saudi Arabia having less in addition having having met him and and been I confess impressed by his this this young man being presented to us as we were briefed before we went in you will be surprised by the his his his grasp of his grasp of affairs which was one to one or one to four and and the MPs there over a prolonged period is impressive he this is why he went to the United States and wild audiences from one end of the United States to the other and had the ability to communicate with other people of the complexity we have got to deal with this is the same guy who almost certainly gave approved the operation that against Jamal kesaji this is the same guy whose intelligence or chief intelligence officer appears to have overseen the mistreatment of women detainees in Saudi Arabia this is the same guy who has now drawn all levers of power into his own hands in Saudi Arabia and yes I think the best thing will be frankly is if Saudi Arabia could find itself another ruler of course whether you will then going to overthrow the entire system on that basis is another question but that is going to be a decision for the Saudis to take question number one piece as a convert to Islam when I was twenty years old that was five years ago I I would like to ask the the panel both Versailles isn't Saudi Arabia complicit in this ex this export of fundamentalist puritanical jihadi concepts and it's infected mosques and young people all over the Western world don't don't you think that somebody should call the the governments of the West need to call Saudi Arabia to account for what they're doing and they're funding these mega preachers are you saying they should excuse me were you saying that she cut ties or keep ties they should cut ties with sell Europe in some form or another you don't hold them responsible for their distortion of Islam which has has led so much [Applause] hello night RV I'm from the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and why the people who speak positively about Saudi Arabia are voiceless I moved to the West in 2014 and they learned a lot from the West and actually I am the founder of the first interfaith organization inside Saudi Arabia and if you cut ties with Saudi Arabia how are you gonna change the people how are you gonna change the minds 2014 I was watching al-jazeera and that's the platform of Osama bin Laden and that's a lot of problems was there I lost a lot of family members because terrorists attack inside Saudi Arabia and what I want to talk assertively about Saudi Arabia I don't really have a voice and as Mahdi say your question sir as mahdi said I am a troll so that's what's going on why the Saudi citizen who talked positive about their country are voiceless in the Western media that's it thank you sir and way up in the back so it's just to gain a bit more clarity and specificity really from the proponents on the motion of exactly how this would play out so should the West cut ties to Saudi Arabia it's a it's open to some interpretation okay it's got some ambiguity in there so a variety of different policy positions and examples from around the world and throughout history have been alluded to so far so one person mentioned Venezuela and the way in which the West has exerted pressure on them but without entirely cutting off ties with them the opponents of the motion have repeatedly referenced North Korea Iran and Cuba as examples of countries where we have entirely completely cut off ties there are but there are a few other countries which also bear worth mentioning so for example in South Africa during the apartheid era there were specific targeted sanctions and which had certain demands upon them it wasn't we're gonna cauterize with you forever it was your question and whether it's possible to maintain ties but do something short of cutting my question to the opponents the motion is specifically if you were the Foreign Minister for the UK what would be your exact precise strategy what would be your policy so without the height without the sort of recess in a moral position what exactly what strategies would use you've you've talked about not rolling out the red carpet you've talked about not selling arms but what other concrete practical strategies would you adopt okay that's something that perhaps we can deal with in a bit more in a bit more in a bit more with more depth but let me so you've given the role of the Foreign Minister of the United Kingdom I think if you've given that to crispin or to Mamun or may be timid are we actually Mamun that some let's get you to we we've heard that wish that the best way to stop the distortion of Islam is to cut off ties it's in a very strong way I'm not sure you know there is a great deal of factual errors being peddled here when we talk about Saturday be spreading radical Islam you have to remind people that it was the basic radical organization started in Egypt in 1928 under said cut of the ultimate ideologue of Salafi jihadi ISM Isabella Arnold now Judy came from subcontinent I did NEP decide that there is a Saudi who has the same standing as now duty or I said koto or as Hassan al-banna there is none I mean these are followers they is Saudi Arabia was taken over by the Muslim Brotherhood at some point when NASA drove a man and drove them out of Egypt then speak present ski during the Cold War recruited Saudis recruited Saudis to go and fight in Afghanistan as part of mini client states and under the leadership of none other than or sama bin Laden has my friend pointed out the the very close friend of al Qaeda of Al Jazeera Network who had the exclusive rights to all his tapes and interviews so this is being peddled yes the theory is the bedrock question from the kingdom yeah he's asking why do you why don't you give more positive news about what's happening in Saudi Arabia lots of positive news the idea that positive news about Saudi Arabia is missing on the idea that Saudis don't have a voice in the Western media Saudi Arabia has one of the biggest army of lobbyists of any country in the Western world they have op-eds conference I live in Washington DC there a conference his think-tank sponsored by the Saudi government all the time there are op eds and US newspapers sponsored some of them are written by the Saudi government handed out to US politicians to publish under their name so this is absurd the idea that Saudi Arabia doesn't get a hearing in the Western press as for the idea that Al Jazeera is a friend of bin Laden it's an absurd claim been made for many years but I find it ironic that Al Jazeera is being blamed for Osama bin Laden who was a Saudi national last time I checked and just one point I must make man when finally he was stripped averse are you but let me just make one very quick point to Mamun moment moment I've got to say this you talk about Islam and mow duty and Acuto the Christian Science Monitor published a piece in the 1990s saying that Egypt shouldn't bow down to Saudi style Islam as a student I saw fundamentally students go to Saudi Arabia come back and distribute books Saudi style fundamentalism unnerved Egyptians Saudi influence must be curbed the author of that piece was one man moon funding [Applause] I'm still I'm still I'm uh still to my point I'm still to my point that you know influencing young and so on through money and other things is is we should become however I have to remind you that there is a faction of bow to a Saudi star in Islam matter in this part of our intelligence squared debate I want to quickly there's been a very good question is there something short of yes well I if for example I have a say in British foreign policy I would definitely make the armed self conditional on Saudi Arabia respecting international norms I would I would also lessen the percentage of arms that Saudi Arabia receives from Britain and replaced that with exporting our education and our judiciary practices that are we are so proud of independent judiciary is the key to actually living in peace and having the real security and stability and on the export of jihadi propaganda yes of course Saudi Arabia is responsible in 2001 I was doing research on transnational religious links between Saudi Arabia and British Muslims and I went to one mosque and what do I see the mufti of Saudi Arabia the head of the religious establishment preaching to British Muslims in Birmingham saying to them you should cut relations with infidels meaning Christian and Jews you should not share their celebration during the two year 2000 because God forbid your heart might soften and you begin to love them this was preached on satellite television to British Muslims in Burma as a foreign ministry didn't do anything one line is the pharmacy I've always want to be the Prime Minister UK I would I would do what Bruce Riedel former CIA officer American exports and Reba said if the US and the UK tonight told King Salman that this war in Yemen has to end it would end tomorrow because the Royal Saudi Air Force cannot operate without American and British support think about that when you vote we could end the war tomorrow we could end the war tomorrow ladies and gentlemen sadly discipline is also part of democracy and we are running against the clock and believe me if I had my choice I would I would let three more of the young idealists with their hands in the air ask more questions but do join us afterwards and come and ask us your questions and my apologies as well to the other young idealists in the room who also have their questions ladies and gentlemen now is the time to make your mind up and while you are doing that it's time to make our summing up speeches more wisdom from our panel starting with you crisp and blunt Saudi Arabia is a horribly complex challenge for the British Foreign Secretary and in reassessing our relationship with Saudi Arabia particularly particularly in light of the dreadful murder of Jamarcus og and the detention of these a female democracy activists and the detention of all the other activists in the civil society space over the last year or so is I think the crucial ground on which we have got to try and retrieve Saudi Arabia as a voice and a position for progress and no one should be under any illusion about how difficult a task that is going to be and much of it is going to turn on the relationship with Mohammed bin Salman who has collected so many of the levers of power to himself the private advice that I gave to the Saudis I knew was that they needed to learn the history of henry ii and his relationship with thomas a becket henry ii had thomas a becket related and then he went to do penance for that and then he was a wiser and better King as a consequence now of course there should be accountability but then we also in the hard world of foreign relations and international diplomacy that has to be also measured with a degree of achievable practicality whether that is achievable in Saudi Arabia now I do not know much of it is going to come out of the story that then comes out but the actual culpability of Mohammed bin Salman what is established for what happened with Jamal khashoggi but as far as the whole Saudi Arabian government is concerned I think it is necessary for us to continue to engage to try and support progress towards an economic vision of 2030 which I think all should be supported and it should be a lesson upon those we're trying to make the view about Saudi Arabian society that women in Saudi Arabia have been part of the education and the progress of Saudi Arabia in a way that you will never really hear in in a kind of debate like this and any foreign companies going to want to invest in Saudi Arabia will always usually seek to employ a Saudi Arabia woman at first because of the work and contribution they make to their society hundreds of thousands millions of scientists have now been educated in the West and have inculcated the values of openness and democracy and taken them back home to their country are we really going to cut all those ties and end that possibility of progress and a closer alignment of Saudi Arabia with our values [Applause] now in Russia yes of course you have been subjected to the Saudi propaganda in the media regardless of what's been said that the good Saudi voices are not heard but when the ban on driving was lifted by Mohammed bin Salman and I wasn't very happy because I knew that if I was in Saudi Arabia I will be able now to drive myself to prison so in terms of Thais cutting the ties or not giving the Saudi regime unconditional support which is my position I strongly believe that still the British government and other Western government can exert pressure on Saudi Arabia to respect international law to treat its own citizens with respect to give them the opportunity to have a representative government we have had enough of the rule of princes the British government since 1902 when it struck that alliance with the House of South could only think about the tall shake the oil-rich Sheikh and remember they empowered the Assad regime from 1902 until the establishment of the kingdom supporting them with arms you just need to go to the public record office and read the archives and you know today what extent the British government continued to support the House of Saud when it was launching jihad yes the Saudi state is the first jihadi project in the Middle East it's the first state that was founded on jihad meaning before they got their attention into the so-called infidels they were fighting Sunni Muslims which are the majority in Saudi Arabia killing people in mosques and also accusing them of blasphemy to spread the hegemony of the House of Saud and that was done with the British government support so I hope today the situation is this and the British government will rethink its relationship with this regime that it had created in at the beginning of the 20th century Magoon Fondy realistic getting more I'm sickened as a good Muslim I like to think not not a hundred percent but is a good Muslim I'm very offended actually by the building of concepts has charged me hide etcetera in Islam that became almost at robotics to trashes publicly and somehow this is a fad that we are going through I think this is very offensive there are 1 billion Muslims who think of the word jihadis Taha'a and thought of it as to teach our children men and women and Cendant university etcetera it's about jihad enough fighting your inner demons etc these amazing things about Islam and it's a fantastic face that shouldn't be just trashed the way I listen to it as Saudi Arabia is just one small part of the Muslim world and probably the least populated but the Muslim world most most Muslims are non Arabs they live in Indonesia and and Malaysia and India etc so the idea that somehow Islam it's became an open season on Islam by attacking sorry or taking issue like democracy and turning it into the way it is I'm really worried about the excitement's of people sometimes if people were were not that excited to win the Archduke Ferdinand was killed in Sarajevo we'd never had when you take like one person on the example and worse personal issue and charge it with emotions I don't suddenly get too excited and and try to push government to make the wrong decisions I think this is very dangerous we have to as as Caspar said we have to think of constructive engagements of countries who might end up being grow and will change their behavior we have to inform policies and and move countries for it is so ironic that a Saudi Arabia opens and my friend Maggy quotes me 1990 when I was not really a fan of State Arabia at the time and I had more hair than than this there are more than Maddie but it is that Saudi that I didn't like us Saudi Arabia as it opened up now it is time to encourage Arabia to open up even more and inform its policies with with with reason and become part of the international community rather than isolating it thank you 30 rcent back to you the last the West should cut ties with Saudi Arabia I'll be honest I preferred the Mamoon Effendi of 1992 but that's just me ladies gentleman my question for you tonight as you vote is very simple are you going to turn a blind eye to the costs of our ongoing Alliance and friendship with one of the most repressive countries in the world one of the biggest sponsors of terrorism one of the most reactionary misogynistic anti-semitic sectarian countries on the planet or are you going to vote in favor of what are quite mild consequences for the Saudis we're not talking about regime Jen Crispin did we didn't bring it up we're just talking about the cutting of ties for the ending of red carpets for the suspension of arms sales don't listen to the fear-mongering of the Opposition of Crispin Blount who tells us that if we stopped selling bombs to Saudi Arabia there'll be a revolution inside the kingdom which seems rather bizarre to me for a man who's such a big supporter of brexit he's given us a lot of project fear tonight and this isn't just about human rights this isn't just about human rights this is about interests as well I mentioned early Republican Senator Lindsey Graham a hawk who was once a big backward Saturday he says he cannot carry on supporting salary but under reckless MBs he says we don't want to give a green light to others that they can go down this road that's what we're asking you to vote for tonight don't give them a green light vote for consequences vote for accountability vote for justice I'm sorry I know my man wonders like this but vote for justice for Jamal we are talking about real people here Jamarcus Shaw who walked into a Saudi consulate in Istanbul five months ago was surrounded by a team of Saudi assassins who put a plastic bag over his head his last words reportedly were do not cover my mouth I have asthma don't you will strangle me vote for Jamal tonight vote for all those names you heard tonight vote for the motion thank you very much for your time ladies and gentlemen no matter how you voted tonight no matter what your view tonight before the debate or after the debate you have all young and old idealist or cynics confirmed again the importance the essential nature of impassioned inspired and most of all of intelligent debate and such is intelligence squared how did you vote when you came in tonight 41% of you said you were for the motion that the West should cut ties with Saudi Arabia 22% of you were against 37% of you came into manual center tonight not quite sure what you thought and what have you decided at the end of our evening 63% of you are for the motion only five percent were undecided 32% of you were against the motion that was a swing ladies and gentlemen of six percent for the motion the West should cut ties with Saudi Arabia thank you to our excellent panelists for the motion and against the motion and thank you to all of you for all of your questions and your participation [Applause]

Channel: Intelligence Squared

Views: 1,652,579

Rating: 4.5156651 out of 5

Keywords: saudi arabia, saudi, foreign policy, mehdi hasan, Lyse Doucet, Madawi al-Rasheed, Crispin Blunt, Mamoun Fandy, Jamal Khashoggi, Mohammed Bin Salman, al-Qaeda, Yemen, ISIS, Daesh, Islam, MBS, Middle East, Conflict, intelligence squared, united kingdom, human rights, united states, donald trump, al jazeera, donald trump impeachment, khashoggi murder, middle east news, middle east debate, debate, suadi arabia

Id: qi0T0owgW3M

Length: 88min 16sec (5296 seconds)

Published: Tue Mar 12 2019

Reddit Comments

[u/0s0rc]

Cheers watching now. As for the motion, fuck oath they should. I guess there is room for some mutually helpful business but it should be done with explicit condemnation of what they do and sanctions too. Saudi Arabia is against everything the west claims to stand for. I cannot take the US and others seriously when they condemn immoral acts largely because of their endorsement of any monster that does their bidding or pays up. Hypocrites the bunch of them. War on terror? Lmao. If that was anything but a propoganda line then saudi Arabia would have been the first country invaded.

[u/kyleclements]

The West should have cut ties with Saudi Arabia 18 years ago.

[u/[deleted]]

Canada could start by revoking their $15 Billion arms deal with Saudi Arabia.

[u/[deleted]]

Without watching video. Cutting ties with KSA is a no brainer, closing down money supply would be even more encouraging development, criminal prosecution of anyone involved in abhorrent human rights* abuses by KSA however is overdue.

*I'm taking really broad approach here

[u/utastelikebacon]

I think if communities like r/samharris would focus on reviewing/sharing ideas that come out of orgs like the debate squared group , fora.tv, long now foundation, Ted talk, etc. it might start to develop a more robust structure and be less likely to fall victim to takeover by Jordan Peterson fanboys and their content. It might help develop a better purpose for the group instead of just following sams content releases an help build an overall better community to hang around, Mods should definitely consider it.

[u/octave1]

Haven't watched this yet but one newsworthy item that came to mind is that the Dakar rally has now moved to Saudi Arabia.

The organisation behind it (ASO) demands huge payouts from the host countries because it puts the country in a beautiful spotlight, it's good for their image & tourism, brings the country together etc.

After security problems in Africa they moved it to S-America but now those countries don't want to pay anymore so they were looking for another host.

Saudi Arabia certainly has good terrain for off-road rallies and buckets of money. And MBS is on a charm offensive to the West.

Fans of rallying are protesting about the decision in huge numbers. The day it was announced was also the day the SA govt decapitated 30+ people and crucified one of them.

[u/Globe_Worship]

Not sure what the best course of action is, but the Saudi regime is awful and our hypocrisy in supporting then comes at a huge cost to our credibility and moral high ground.

[u/ThichQuangDuc1]

Isn't this the same dude that believed Muhammad literally flew around on a winged horse?

[u/ThudnerChunky]

*Sponsored by Iran.

Jokes aside, the west decided to support the Sunni block in the middle east, not an easy thing to change.