The World Should Recognise Jerusalem As Israel’s Capital

[Applause] [Music] thank you very much good evening ladies and gentlemen tonight we are here to debate something as contemporary as it is contentious the motion before us boldly states the world should recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital it promises to be a pretty intense 90 minutes but arguably less fraught than your alternative 90 minutes this evening watching England V Tunisia so first of all thank you all for being here in choosing us a special shout out to the 11 year olds in their sports kits we're really happy that you came to and just think panel the weight of expectation upon our shoulders could be so much worse moving the United States Embassy to Israel in Israel to Jerusalem as Donald Trump did a month ago constitutes a momentous show of support and friendship to Israel it grants Israel that same legitimacy to establish its own capital that is taken as a given by every other country in the world it is also a reckless move a move that pushes peace further away than ever a reality underscored when Israeli forces killed dozens of protesting Palestinians in Gaza as that embassy ceremony was under way just 50 miles away other countries in accordance with the UN recognition of Jerusalem as a corpus sefirot 'm in other words a separate body place their embassies in tel aviv so should that now change or is it the worst kind of opportunists short-term meddling the cost of which may well turn out to be enormous this debate invites huge questions about so much Middle East policy but tonight we want to stick as far as we can to the motion itself this is not just about Trump this is not just about America it's about whether the should recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital does it seem let's be honest obvious to you that whatever the UN says whatever countries say publicly Jerusalem is the capital of Israel or does it seem an unnecessary and illegal provocation at a time when the peace process is flatlining now on the way in you voted with your gut instincts will you still feel that way at the end we have as you can see before you a phenomenal panel of speakers tonight 2 for 2 against you'll hear from each and then I'll encourage questions she begs concise questions from the floor will hear a brief summing up and I'll ask you to vote again and we'll bring you that final tally and compare the to compare the change the direction of travel at the end a last word as much for those on the panel perhaps as those asking questions we know how much passion this subject arouses we know how quickly tempers and feelings can become inflamed by all means make your arguments and your rhetoric as robust and compelling as you can but we're going to attempt tonight to keep it civil in here our first speaker then for the motion is natasha hausdorff she's a barrister at six pump court chambers and a director of the NGO UK lawyers for Israel she previously clerked for the president of the Israeli Supreme Court in Jerusalem her family ties to Jerusalem date back to 1846 now she's going to speak for just under 10 minutes at the podium there'll be no interventions allowed during the opening speeches if you hear me click my glass it means there's one minute to go Natasha the floor is yours ladies and gentlemen good evening Thank You Emily and the team at intelligence squared is it a pleasure to be here and yet I'm also puzzled as to why it is that we must in fact all gather here on a Monday evening while England plays her first World Cup game to discuss what must be self-evident that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel why is this even a question should the world recognize Jerusalem why well I suppose similarly for millennium the world did not recognize that the earth was round there is at the heart of controversy over recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital a series of myths and before anything I want to take this opportunity to debunk those myths in particular the myth of occupation because the framework of the law of occupation applies where a sovereign is how stood from its territory now there is no State of Palestine there never was a state of Palestine there may one day be such a state but that depends on negotiations and factors which we simply don't have the time to be able to address properly this evening absent any sovereign from which land could have been occupied the notion of occupation in a legal sense simply does not have a leg to stand on and the term occupation used in this context is purely a political term issues over territory go to the heart of the matter and date back to the very establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 Israel was born out of the previous British Mandate of a geographical area called Palestine now when a state emerges out of the pre-existing colonial entity there is a principle a fundamental principle of international law that applies to determine and regulate the delineation of that new States territory that principle is called ot precede ettus URIs and it dictates that the new state inherits the boundaries of the pre-existing colonial entity it's been applied to the emergence of states in South America it's been applied and governed the dissolution of the former Yugoslavia and it's been consistently applied in Asia and in Africa after Israel's war of independence when partition was rejected by the Arabs and in which it was set upon by five Arab armies seeking to annihilate it the only new sovereign entity to emerge from the previous existing British Mandate was Israel and for the application of this fundamental principle of international law dictates that Israel inherits the pre-existing boundaries of the British Mandate that preceded it and indeed Israel's peace treaties with its neighboring States to date with Egypt and with Jordan reinforce this reading because those treaties ratify borders between Israel and its neighbors explicitly based on those pre-existing boundaries of the British Mandate that is the legal situation which leads me to the next myth in legality people will tell you that this that and the other in respect of Israel is illegal because they have nothing else to say in international law the boundaries of Israel Jerusalem as its capital and Israel's current administration of the disputed territories which it acquired in defensive Wars is categorically legal not only was there never a state of Palestine but contrary to an increasingly circulated misrepresentation until relatively recently there was no such thing as Palestinian Arab national identity my grandparents were Palestinians Jewish Palestinians designated as such by the British because they were living in British Mandate Palestine in fact my family was living in Jerusalem well over a hundred years before Yasser Arafat who was born in Egypt invented the concept of exclusive Palestinian Arab national identity in the 1960s ok myths debunked let's talk about the city which has been the epicentre of Jewish prayer and identity for the last 3,000 years the capital of the only Jewish state it's worth noting that there are 22 Arab states 22 Arab capitals one of them is in Jordan where Arabs from Mandate Palestine form the majority of the population but Jerusalem is special Jerusalem is unique it does after all host the places the holy places of the Abrahamic religions now Israel's Declaration of Independence resolved that Israel would safeguard the holy places of all religions during the Jordanian occupation between 1948 and 1967 there was no freedom of religion in Jerusalem Jews were ethnically cleansed from the city 58 synagogues were desecrated Jews were prevented from accessing their holiness the holiest site 38,000 Jewish graves in the ancient cemetery on the Mount of Olives were systematically desecrated my own great-grandfather's tombstone the honor mayor hausdorff was used to pave a nearby road hundreds of Torah scrolls and thousands of holy books were plundered and burned Asha's the christian population had restrictions imposed on it so that many chose to leave the city after liberating the old city in 1967 moshe dayan then Minister defense famously declared we've reunited the city the capital of Israel never to part it again to our Arab neighbours Israel extends the hand of peace and to people of all faiths we guarantee full freedom of worship we've come not to conquer the holy places of others but to live with others in harmony let's look around the region for a moment at the Banyan Valley or Palmyra blown up by Isis at sites in Alexandria destroyed by the Muslim Brotherhood and at Gaza more recently where Hamas bulldozed an ancient Canaanite four-and-a-half thousand year old Bronze Age city known as tel s Sakana sites of religious and cultural heritage are only safe in the one democracy in the region now Israel has of its own volition given authority to the Jordanian wax over the Temple Mount the wax abused that authority by destroying archaeology and allowing terrorist activity Israel guarantees freedom of religion in perpetuity in all sites the one exception is that Jews are prohibited from preying on the Temple Mount a concession the Israeli Authority has made in the name of peaceful coexistence and let's get to the real positive note in all of this which is that recognition of the actuality Israel is never going to relinquish Jerusalem is the most positive step that we can make towards peace any real peace can never be based on fabrications or falsehoods and any negotiations that start from a position of fantasy do not have a hope of success the proof of this is that in 70 years we have not achieved the piece that we yearn for so let us take a reality check and I promise you that any Palestinian leader who genuinely seeks to negotiate a solution will be enormous ly advantaged by the fact that the world accepts reality the violent riots and terror attacks committed by the genocide or terrorist regime Hamas attempting to breach the border fence into Israel in the last few months has not in response to the recognition of Jerusalem it's an objection to Israel's very existence the embassy move is just an excuse but even if for one moment you thought that they were resultant from that move from recognition of as Israel's capital shame on the notion that threats and violence ought to make right-thinking people like us ought to prevent us from doing the right thing ever we don't have to go back to the fact that Jerusalem was the capital of the Jewish people 3,000 years ago or two that every year Jews in the Diaspora say next year in Jerusalem or to the fact that at every Jewish wedding the groom utters the immortal words if I forget you O Jerusalem let my right hand forget its skill all we need is to extend to Israel the same courtesy that we extend to every single country in the world every country has the right to choose its capital and that choice is respected by the international community I mentioned at the start that for millennia the world did not recognize that the earth was round I kid you not this still exists Google the Flat Earth Society there are people that still believe that the world is flat there are people who don't recognize that Jerusalem is the capital of the State of Israel don't let that be you ladies and gentlemen [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] a provocative opening there Natasha thank you very much guard a commie is our first speaker against the motion she's a leading Palestinian activist academic and writer she's a research fellow at the Institute of Arab and Islamic studies at the University of Exeter and she's the author of return a Palestinian memoir born in Jerusalem gada you have 10 minutes welcome [Applause] [Music] thank you very much well all I can say to you is after that if you believe that you'll believe anything [Applause] I can't I don't have the time to go into refuting every single of these old chestnuts that natasha has produced which I thought had actually died but they're still being reiterated by defenders of Israel I'm sorry to say anyway the short answer to the proposition that the world should recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital is a resounding no it should not the world should not recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel because to do so would mean that the world was recognizing illegal occupation land theft expulsion of the native population and discrimination against those of the natives who remain in Jerusalem it is to recognize illegal settlement building to recognize in short serial violations of Palestinian human rights and international law ok let's have a few facts the situation which may surprise some of you is this Israel has no legal title to either west or east jerusalem the reality is that as the tasha mentioned the status of Jerusalem was decided by a UN resolution in 1947 that it would be administered under international jurisdiction Israel however took over West Jerusalem and started to behave as if it were preparing for for that to become its capital city but Israel has no legal title to West Jerusalem its presence in Jerusalem is a de facto presence in other words it's recognized as a reality but not in not by rights and that is why the majority of nations do not have their embassies in West Jerusalem now the East Jerusalem is under belligerent occupation since 1967 and the fact that Israel annexed East Jerusalem is also illegal now president Trump's decision to go ahead and recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel despite all this air in itself quite apart from what you may think about the wisdom such a move actually confers no legality on Israel with regard to Jerusalem so it doesn't actually make any difference the legal position but you know this is a man who sent his daughter to celebrate as you heard Emily say to celebrate drink champagne with Israel's leaders while Israeli snipers were shooting dead 120 Palestinian men women and children is this a model the world wants to follow I don't think so now I have to confess that the proposition has a very special significance for me I was born in Jerusalem before there was an Israel it is my native city we were driven out in 1948 to make room for the creation of Israel in my homeland my family house is still in Jerusalem in West Jerusalem successive Israeli families and individuals have occupied it but it is our family home since 1948 I have had to witness Israel's repeat of salt on Jerusalem's territory its topography its history and all the time Israel stressing to the world that Jews have an emotional and religious attachment to the city you heard just now the Hackney trace the capital of the Jewish people I don't know what that means a capital is normally the capital of a country it's not the capital of a people however you hear this all the time and it's all it is is throwing dust in the eyes however attached you are to some place or other it does not mean you can seize it and own it that is a fundamental law of the international order otherwise where would we all be you know I'm often having to use a an example I'm going to give you it sounds absurd but it's in a way it's quite parallel you see supposing I told you that I have and my family has a very strong attachment to Buckingham Palace and that I have documents documents which show that my ancestors preceded the Queen of England really do you think that would give me the right to throw the Queen out and take her place I don't think so so the question of recognizing Jerusalem is Israel's capital really what it does amount to in the end is going along with the brazen attempt on the part of Israel again and again to pull the wool over people's eyes to hold on to what it isn't Israel's to keep that's what this is all about and I don't think looking at this audience you're gonna fall for that you're not gonna fall for that which is why I urge you to oppose the proposition and vote against it thank you but I think you gotta call me there speaking of land theft discrimination and illegal settlement you have a couple of minutes left on the clock if there's anything more that you want to add god that's nice it's the first thing that's ever happened to me I'm 20 is double the number that is recognized as the killings in Gaza no I'm afraid not 120 in one day you can check that with whatever source you want 120 in one day yes in one day sorry sorry we can come back on that day we can come back to that was just allowing you to UM day you pick it up with a jacket you're right but listen even if it was 20 you think it would be all right you see okay I'm going to introduce our second speaker for the motion the world should recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel I heard Olmert the Prime Minister of the State of Israel from 2006 to 2009 he worked towards give us a chance he worked towards a peace agreement with the Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas which he believes they were very close to concluding he also served as mayor of Jerusalem from 1993 to 2003 a hurdle met you have the floor for 10 minutes [Music] thank you very much I entirely subscribe to the fundamental principle of what Natasha said before about the centrality of Jerusalem is the capital of the state of Israel and is the center part of Jewish history but first and foremost as the capital of the State of Israel secondly I'm forced to say that the numbers that you have spelled out mrs. Comey are entirely false there were 62 victims in Gaza terrible I am said for each and every one of them but the problem of this debate that we hold all the time is that you can't stick to the facts you have to exaggerate in order to try and dramatize it because you arguments are not strong enough now I I don't say it here for the sake of winning the support of this very distinguished group of people I must say I am utterly impressed by the fact that you prefer us over the English team in the Mondial I mean I'd watch it myself but thank you very much for coming I want to say that there is always a danger then we will try to argue about all kinds of small petty facts and we will get stuck in the corner instead of talking about the basic fundamental things which are essential for this discussion and therefore what I want to do is to take the position that was spelled out by Natasha one step forward and say this it will say by Emily that I was Prime Minister of State of Israel are negotiated with the president of the Palestine authority and we were that close to reach an agreement had a Palestinian leader said yes to what I proposed and this is what I proposed what I proposed and I proposed now which can solve this issue in a just and correct manner for everyone involved what I proposed was the Jerusalem will be the capital of the State of Israel there is no question about it it is and it should be but Jerusalem not Beit Hanina and not ISA Weah and Ocho fat and not a refugee came in to a fault inaudible Makabe and all the villages which are now considered to be part of the municipality of Jerusalem and which I tried very much to take care of when I was mayor of Jerusalem and build and improve the quality of life much more than any of the Palestinians living under the the tyranny of the Hamas in Gaza but all of these villages are not part of the history of Jerusalem as far as we as Jews and Israelis are concerned therefore my idea is very simple Jerusalem is the capital of Israel all the Arab neighborhoods which surround the city of Jerusalem are not as far as I'm concerned they can be the capital of the Palestinians no problem take it now take it I proposed it now I'm not talking theoretically I'm not talking hypothetically I negotiated with the Palestinian representative the only person amongst the Palestinians perhaps the only person in any our community in the world which was elected democratically Mahmoud Abbas a decent partner to negotiations I proposed to him that all the Arab neighborhoods around Jerusalem will be part of the Palestinian state I am in favor of a two-state solution absolutely and that all these villages will be the capital of the Palestinian state Jerusalem wheezed a neighbourhood state were built after 67 will be the State of Israel then there is one issue the Holy Basin I proposed again not theoretically not hypothetically as the Prime Minister of the State of Israel on behalf of the State of Israel officially I proposed it to the Palestinians and I say the Holy Basin will be defined accurately and a trust of five nations will be appointed by the security National Security Council of the United Nations approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations to administer the Holy Basin without an exclusive sovereignty for anyone all right what else unless someone wants to say it's not the issue of Jerusalem and you could hear it and I hope that my friend is a straw will not subscribe to this ridiculous position that really what lies behind it is not East and West Jerusalem is not supposed to be capital of Israel it level is not supposed to exist as a Jewish state in the first place and that's lies behind it because I can understand that you can say I am against having a Buddhist as part of the capital of Israel I don't disagree but to say that Israel has no right to have its capital in Jerusalem in any part of Jerusalem this is basically to say that we are not in favor of having Israel all together and this was the official position of all the Arab countries during 1947 and that's they rejected the 47 resolution of the United Nation not Israel so to sum it up Jerusalem is the capital of the State of Israel I was proud to be the mayor of the city at a time that we celebrated the third millennium of Jerusalem as the capital starting at the times not only of the Jewish people but of the Jewish people in the sovereign state of Israel at that time in the time of King David and since then it never seems to be the center of Jewish life and the center of Israeli life since the State of Israel was created there has to remain the parts which are today within the municipal framework of Jerusalem and which are not part of Jewish history should be part of the Palestinian state that ought to be created and that they will become the capital of the Palestinian state according more or less to the lines of 1967 now I proposed it on behalf of the State of Israel again and I never got a positive answer from the Palestinians so with all due respect don't try to distort the basic facts we are prepared to recognize the position the status of the Palestinians first of all we are prepared and it could have been resolved and if you will ask the President of the Palestinian Authority dr. Mahmoud Abbas he will confirm it because he did confirm it time and again publicly since we negotiated that this was proposed by me he never said no I have to be honest II never said no but he never said yes which could have resolved this historical conflict on a basis which is entirely acceptable to the international community now you guys want to argue with Trump maybe I also who cares I'm talking about the fundamental fact that Jerusalem has been was is and will be the capital of the State of Israel and that all the surroundings of Jerusalem which are inhabited by Palestinians and which are considered to be Jerusalem by the Palestinians should be the capital of the Palestinian state which will be created on the day that the Palestinians will say yes to my proposal thank you very much [Applause] I heard on that they're former Prime Minister of the State of Israel on why that deal never got through in favor of a two-state solution our last speaker then our second speaker against the motion is Jack Straw cabinet minister in the governments of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown he served as foreign secretary Home Secretary leader of the Commons and Justice Secretary Jack Straw welcome you have ten minutes [Applause] [Music] ladies and gentlemen thank you very much I want to begin this debate sort of left field but it's very important that I do to say something I never thought that I would have to say but I've been so appalled by some by some of the recent example of anti-semitism in my party that I feel I must do say [Applause] I've been in continuous membership of the Labour Party since 1960 58 years for almost he work out how old I was when I started for almost all of that period the issue of anti-semitism within my party simply did not arise where a party born of the idea of equality for all and proud of our consistent record of anti racism and of opposing discrimination on the grounds of religion moreover because people of the Jewish faith had in the Holocaust suffered a greater genocide than any peoples in human history no one in my party ever sought to dance on the head of a pin and seek to suggest disgustingly that it was possible to distinguish racism from anti-semitism until recently that is when in the last three years some in the Labour Party have tolerated or condoned some completely unacceptable examples of anti-semitism as I will explain I do not agree with the stance taken by successive governments in Israel towards the settlements in the occupied West Bank and in East Jerusalem nor to the recent decision of the US administration to recognize Jerusalem as it's not Israel's capital and to move its embassy there from Tel Aviv but I defend absolutely the right of Israel to prosper in peace and security within its internationally recognized borders and I condemn those whether within or without my party who somehow conflate their opposition to particular policies for the time being of the government of Israel with opposition or worse to those of the Jewish faith or the right of Israel to exist at all now I've been to Israel and the occupied territories on many occasions and of course I understand that two Israelis Jerusalem is their capital I'm not trying to tell you what is patently not the case and Natasha of course I understand that but I think it's also important to understand that two Palestinians Jerusalem is their capital - and it's this conflict of perceptions which is very powerful which lies at the heart of the international debate as to when and in what circumstances it would be right to report international recognition to Jerusalem as Israel's capital and meanwhile for international and diplomatic purposes to sustain the current situation where Tel Aviv should be the site of diplomatic missions and I listened with care - what Natasha said on this issue of legality and illegality and I don't want to get bogged down in that debate but just to say that Natasha that those who believe the world is round and those who believe the world is flat might be the other way around on this issue and that in terms of illegality there is a raft of United Nations Security Council resolutions which do declare that Israel's occupation of the occupied territories that's why it's called that it is unlawful that its settlements are unlawful that for example the [Applause] resolution four seven eight passed by the Security Council in 1980 it was one which declared that great concern about the enactment of the law of Jerusalem in the neset and reaffirmed censored in the strongest terms and don't forget this the United States could have veto this resolution but it didn't do so and affirms that the enactment of the basic law by Israel constitutes a violation of international law and does not affect the continued application of the Geneva Conventions etc in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since June 1967 including Jerusalem so that as I just to come back to this the issue is how we deal with this conflict between Israel and the Palestinians which has dogged the region continues to threaten that whether one likes it or not the security of Israel and everybody living with within Israel and is it I mean worse than than a running saw now my view is if happiness is no different from that which has been taken by successive British governments including the present administration led by Teresa may this is what our in Prime Minister not of my party but I agree with her said when President Trump announced his decision on the 8th of December last year it is may sever I quote we disagree with the u.s. decision to move its embassy to Jerusalem and to recognize Jerusalem as is as the Israeli capital before a final status agreement has been reached we believe it is unhelpful in terms of prospects for peace in the region the British Embassy to Israel is based in Tel Aviv and we have no plans to move it our position she went on on the status of Israel is clear and long-standing it should be determined in the negotiated settlement between the Israelis and the Palestinians and Jerusalem should ultimately be the shared capital of the Israeli and West Indian states I just pause at that to say there that that's what we did it here with respect to them either from Natasha or from our heart about sharing Jerusalem and not sharing the suburbs their heart [Applause] I mean your remember that time Weitzman I mean your won't Britt remember personal anymore than I do but you remember the story that Haim Weitzman when he was trying to negotiating what became the Balfour Declaration was offered Uganda by the British government I'm not making this up he was offered Uganda by the British government as a site for an Israeli state and he then replied well would you like to the Brits who were talking to would you like Paris as as the capital of Great Britain I mean the answer these territories and any cities have enormous symbolic before importance of course they do for every member of the Jewish faith and particularly what members of the Jewish faith have gone through but they also have huge importance for Palestinians as well whether they are Palestinians to a Christian of women there are great many or Palestinians who are Muslim as well and mrs. may went on to say in line with relevant Security Council resolutions we regard East Jerusalem as part of occupied Palestinian territories and she added that she now urged the White House to bring forward detailed proposals for an israeli-palestinian settlement so this issue about whether not whether Israelis should recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel I understand it that's all Israelis do recognize it but it's whether the world should recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital comes down to this what approach is most likely to assist in securing a long-term resolution to this conflict which is so bedeviled a region for 70 years now there are may be those in Israel and elsewhere who believe that no solution is possible that the world when the region simply have to live with the facts on the ground and that's what I took from what Natasha had to say however like the British government and almost all in the international community I profoundly disagree the condition in which many Palestinians have to live is an affront to any concept we all share of human dignity to continued encroachments of Palestinian land the forcible evacuation which I have witnessed of Palestinian residents to make way for Israeli settlements is unacceptable and it's unlawful in international law and has caused unnecessary and untold human misery but I also question whether maintaining the status quo is remotely in the interests of the vast majority of his raela citizens who are of the Jewish faith I was involved in negotiations led by President Bush and Tony Blair which led to the 2002 roadmap and I also greatly applaud the efforts made by our heart omlette when he was Prime Minister it was difficult then and is become more difficult any resolution will inevitably involve concessions by both sides but when one critical issue in those negotiations will have to be the status of Jerusalem in the situation where Israel because of the facts on the ground will inevitably hold many of the best cards the views taken by the international community and by Her Majesty's Government is that agreement for Israel to achieve international recognition of Jerusalem as its capital would have to be matched by concessions to the Palestinians on other matters and essentially what President Trump has sought to do is to take away a critical part in those negotiations making it that much more difficult for a settlement to be reached this has never been announced no it's arguing with Israelis not to recognize Jerusalem as its capital as I've said tonight now it's taking away the right of means Israel to recognize the capital the question is at what point should the world do so and in my view in order to achieve a long-standing peace for Israelis and Palestinians that should come at the time where there is a final settlement of the whole issue thank you very much [Applause] Jack Straw finishing off our opening speeches from the floor there now is the chance where I can give you the results for the pre vote on your way in you should all have told us what your gut instinct was and I can tell you now that before the debate before you heard anyone here speak 27% of you were for the motion 46% of you were against and 27 were undecided now obviously any of those numbers can change so take heart this side and don't be on your laurels this side because we are here to see what moves will not just look at the end numbers we're looking at the direction of travel throughout the debates and we're going to have plenty of time to take questions from you all from the floor but before we do I just want to get a little bit of a debate going with our speakers here and pick up a little bit on some of the points you've made Natasha let's get to the bottom of the flat earther stuff shall we when you talk about flat earthing being the same we think of that as parochial as backwards as blind are you really suggesting that people who pause before seeing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel or flattered are those people who can't off flat earthers are blind you don't understand that at all indeed Emily and I think the matter can be boys down further still and Jack Straw you asked can Jerusalem be shared I think the simple answer is to look at Damascus at the minute Jack Straw who you well let's let's get to the bottom of this you're on record in 2005 with withdrawal from Gaza praising the withdrawal praising a bus for the stability he provided in the strip and applauding the courage of that move well look at the bloody mess in Gaza at the moment you were wrong there with respect you're wrong now and I for one doubt the grip of reality of an individual who believes that that risen can simply be shared not end up like the rest of the Middle East I was actually somewhat disappointed that first opposition speaker in particular did not listen did not pay attention to the to the opening it is a great pity because I think on the legality point it might have been possible to learn something but I might note I do note I must say that I have to correct one thing I do have to correct one thing she said I refer to the 1947 resolution I didn't with expected so I don't want another speech let me just come in of course very clear what do you say that Jerusalem can't be shared are you essentially saying there is no two-state solution I didn't say that that's what I'm asking you believe in a two-state solution that is that Jerusalem is not a part of what we must be very clear on is look at where the notion of a two-state solution is has come from the important thing and the reason I didn't mention the 1947 resolution which I have here is because the term Palestinian is never used in it now why did the UN not use the term Palestinian but rather refer to the local Arab population at a time very simply because it didn't exist so if we're talking about the two-state solution okay god I'm gonna bring you in the context listen we existed whatever you want to call us front door do you have a look at me I exist whether you want to call me you want to call me Palestinian or you want to call me something else I exist now in terms of I must say this business about Gaza and this so-called evacuation of Gaza and how how bad it was why is Gaza in the state you ever ask yourself why it is that Gaza has been subjected to an inhuman siege where nothing virtually nothing can get in why is that why does Israel maintain that the people of Gaza cannot have freedom of movement by land by sea by air where is it written that this is justified and this is legal and this is something that we could we could do it for other people our honor I'm gonna bring you in here you recognize that this is not an ideal State for Israel or the Palestinians number one Israel pulled out entirely from Gaza in Gaza is controlled by a terrorist organization and you deny when you ignore it the killers of the worst kind you know why not because they want to kill us we know how to deal with it they killed the PLO they killed the Palestinians in June of 2007 the Hamas organization brutally in the most aggressive and violent manner killed the hundreds of PLO activists in Gaza killed them and threw them from the top of the buildings because they wanted to entirely get treated on a government of Abu Mazen that's number one with your permission just one thing I am absolutely happy and surprised to hear that in principle mr. Stroh does accept my proposition agree the Jerusalem should be recognized as the state as the capital of the state of israel and and that he says two things one that it should be subject to an agreement I propose the agreement of a two-state solution with an Israeli withdrawal on the basis of 67 lines you hear me mr. robb 67 lines the Palestinians didn't respond that's number one number two I didn't I suggested the suburbs of Jerusalem will be the Palestinian capital every part that was in our part of Jerusalem should be part of the Palestinian capital in Jerusalem the Jewish city should remain the capital of the State of Israel as it is now what I'm saying is only one thing which I must say for a person that was in the top government positions for so many years you stupid I'm gonna bring justice end of the sentence what you say is that the to the city of Jerusalem shall be shared by two different countries I don't know in the history of mankind that the citizens of one city were citizens of two different countries that's what you proposed this is unrealistic this is an imaginary cat sir and what I will suggest is that the are part will be the capital of the Palestinians and the Jewish part will be the capital of the State of Israel as it is and that is the only possible solution practical solution that can be implemented between the two of us [Applause] I applaud I do the the fact that you stood up for the 67 borders it's it's a pity that some others within politics in Israel have not done so and have sought continually to change the facts on the ground so those borders become less and less relevant the second thing is that as you know it's always been a part of a possibility of a settlement that West Jerusalem should be the capital of Israel and East Jerusalem should be the capital of a Palestinian state and I mean you mock the idea of a shared capital but that is your ought not only mocking me which might be easy enough but you're you're also at Atlas locking our prime minister who says that Jerusalem should be the ultimately the shared capital of the Israeli and Palestinian state yes it's very difficult to find international analogies for the current position between Israel and the Palestinians because none exists there is nowhere else in the world where Palestinians are equivalent of Palestinians and Israelis with all the very difficult history have to live cheek-by-jowl so we do have to find and we have to carry on trying to find a solution to this near intractable problem but I don't believe that it is completely intractable and it's so important for the people of Israel as well as that of the Palestinian area not least as many and my last point as many thoughtful people within Israel point out that the nature of the demography on the ground that not very many decades hence Israel is going to face this really serious dilemma a whether it can be both a Jewish and democratic state at the same time achieving a settlement is critical for Israel as it is for the Palestinians [Applause] Natasha a last word to you before we move on do you recognize that this is not in the interest that Donald Trump's move the Trump administration's move is not in the interests of many Israelis many Jews living in Jerusalem or in Israel absolutely not and Theresa May was wrong when she said that the recognitions in it is unhelpful what it does is display a fundamental lack of understanding of the situation the dynamic of the Palestinian leadership there is a reason that when Obama took a foolish position on settlements Mahmoud Abbas was the one to say how can I be less Palestinian than the President of the United States what this position what Mays comments what the position of the UK does is hamstrung the Palestinian leadership because they can't come to the negotiation table when in reality everyone knows that Jerusalem is no longer there we've moved on from the position that Prime Minister Olmert had put forward they can't come back from that negotiation table and face their people when the international community still believe in the Flat Earth scenario okay so we are at a state where you're saying Jerusalem is no longer there you actually think it's been taken off the table now well it's been on the table so many times and it's been flatly rejected because of course there is a distinction between the first and second speakers on the proposition the second speaker says he recognizes in Israel in internationally recognized borders whatever those are but of course the first speaker doesn't her problem is with Israel as a whole and she said on on previous occasions that the whole of Israel is let go to come back on that do you not recognize the State of Israel in any shape I am NOT going to have this discussion the question because what you directly I'm not because this is an old trick divert the discussion we're talking about non-functional body if had we directly do you recognize any rate of Israel in any shape of force we recognize the State of Israel that is not what we're talking about this evening we're talking about Jerusalem I'm gonna open it up and I've no but very quickly I have to tell you doormat shouting you know and raising your voice doesn't make you right right consider that a first formal ticking off I'm going to open it to the floor now yes not ok I hope everyone can hear me my name's Ambrose in writ I'm from campaign for truth and I would like to ask it gone I can I have your name fully got a commie yeah yesterday in the Palestinian mission outside the Palestinian mission there was a demonstration and the demonstration was the Palestinian mission against the Palestinian Authority I don't know if anyone knew of you went and I'm gonna bring you to your question is what do you mean because I've seen your many events from the river to the sea Palestine will be free be free from what exactly that means the eradication of the Jewish people from the State of Israel there is no other explanation for that okay you want thank you God will come to you in a second there's two other hands yes who's got my second mic you sir sorry hello I'd like to ask garnet Asha this question please as the grandson of a Palestinian refugee myself Jerusalem is also very important part of my own family's identity as a as a descendant of Palestinians so I'd like to just simply ask you what should we do to Jerusalem my grandfather was born in Jerusalem should we just simply cast away over 1,000 years old heritage and just put it back into the past what should we do thank you sir and you've got the third mic at the top there hello my name is David I'm a lawyer two questions one for Garda Garda do you recognize the right of Israel to exist and a question for Jack Straw Jack do you think London should be shared as a capital with another non sovereign entity okay I think we've covered your last point already but if I take you back to an gada this is starting with you do you want to explain do you remember saying that phrase from the river to the sea Palestine will be free is that something that you've said it's such explain this is a slogan that's used by Palestinian solidarity groups because what it's referring to is the fact that Palestinians living in the territory from the river to the sea are ruled by Israel whether they are in the 67 territories or whether they are in 48 Israel they're all ruled by Israel and they are not free that's what that means they are not free and they have every right to be free so there's nobody talking about throwing Jews out or killing Jews or any of that that is something I fear I'm sorry it's in your own mind now this little it must be in your own mind the the second I think that I'm gonna give the second one - no just pick up and saying the Mahmoud Abbas has used that phrase meaning it would be a Jew Free State no no no no no nobody nobody there is nobody I know who's talking about a Jew Free State amongst the Palestinian okay we many other let me tell you we have a wonderful vision which is that we share the land we share the land between us and the Jewish Israelis that is the proper humane vision god I thank all this propaganda and not that usually independent state not that's independent state of Israel okay independent state what words loss of us not bring laundering this terminology doesn't I certainly don't think that outing is strong argument but and I I entirely agree and I apologize to you if you felt it I am shouting at you but I felt that you are trying to spread fake statements that have nothing to do with reality about the Palestinians about the Hamas and about now what you say is a shirt shirt state between the river and the sea but not an independent Palestinian state separated okay well Natasha is the one that's gonna want to the question of the I'm going to call you Palestinian grandson because you didn't say your name what is the vision then for his relatives and your ownselves and your generations now what is that Jerusalem how is it shared okay will on the Arab population of Jerusalem I've spoken to East Jerusalem i'ts they are still in limbo because the constantly failed negotiations but the ordinary East Jerusalem might in the street the last thing that they want is to be ruled over by the corrupt Palestinian Authority with the threat of a violent Hamas takeover at any moment the people whose rights that the operative opposition claimed to support these people that I spoke to moved from areas designated for the Palestinian Authority in order to remain under Israeli jurisdiction in order to remain as amongst the only free Arabs in the Middle East and Israeli Arabs are the only free Arabs in the Middle East they have full political human rights civic rights they serve at every level of society as members of parliament in the government so you're saying they prefer to be governed by israel well they did these put base for the alternative and trust me I'll go back to the earlier point Gaza nowadays doesn't look in many respects that dissimilar from Damascus because they are also ruled by a despotic authoritarian corrupt goes without saying but a very well a terrorizing force in in the name of Hamas I'm just gonna be a dollar do you agree with Natasha I know you're on the same side but would you go along with this analogy of Damascus look I I said what I say but more important as a Prime Minister of Israel not in a meeting like this okay on on a public debate not in a friendly party in the official table of negotiations I proposed this to the Palestinian leader which is one an independent Palestinian state on the basis of 67 lines now you talk all the time about you say about Jerusalem and you talk about everything else because this is easier to argue with us that we control all the Palestinians I propose to pull out on the basis of 67 lines number two I play don't get into the pajamas Jerusalem will be the capital of the Palestinian tomates never got a listen answer God it wasn't negotiating with you at the time but if you were in those shoes in the Abbas shoes can you see a way that he should have said yes to that do you think that was a mistake to have turned down that offer I can't second-guess him but I'm sure you can speak very well sure that the offer would have been not as generous as our friend is making out here secondly secondly secondly mr. Olmert it is stop talking about the two states that option has been foreclosed by your colleague Benjamin Netanyahu there is no possibility of two-stage okay I'm gonna go to the audience now because I want to bring lots more hands in we've got about 15 minutes I'm looking for female hands as well yes you've had your hand up a long time yes you ma'am and then a chap right next to number three thank you it saddens me to hear this because I grew up in Israel from universe time mm we can hear you but I didn't mana I grew up in Israel and I'm a daughter of refugees from Europe there's almost nobody left alive and I feel for the Palestinian cause but they have to feel for us too we need our state I find it very sad with saddened with Jack Straw that he talks about an occupied West Bank and I come to the question why has a nobody ever raised the issue the deterred Amiens invaded West Bank preventing dust the creation of an Iranian state and when they were given the chance not to invade Israel King Hussein did invade Israel in 67 okay in after dead just they didn't negotiate peace in Israel sadly clanked to those territories because nobody was top peace we've got it is a responsibility with the Jordanians I'm gonna let Jack Straw answer that in a second but first let's get yes thank you I've got a two-part question for the young girl next to mr. O'Mara first of all in your researches did you happen to evaluate our stir that's why she's certainly younger than I am did you avail yourself of any of the archaeological record in which the Israelites and the Philistines are both attested in a set of the same series of Egyptian Stealer at the same time from 1850 and have remained living in that land ever since or though more Palestinians than Jews for much of that time did you know that and secondly do you genuinely think that the situation as it exists now benefits either Jews or Palestinians and might it not behoove us Jews to grow some humility given our long-standing relationship with the Palestinians and actually lower our entrenched walls okay thank you very much I'm being particularly brutal with the questions I'm sorry it's just I can see a lot of hands I don't want to disappoint yes sir Thanks good evening my name is Fraser I'm 47 I come from Scotland I've got zero bias one way or the other Ernest but this issue makes my heart weak it's so in just and so cruel and it's at the heart of many of the problems we have in the world and I think in the title of tonight's debate there's a dichotomy because all has happened is that America's decided to move its embassy that is not the world recognized in Jerusalem as the capital so therein lies a solution how can we get the world to decide what the what the solution should be and then the protagonist should accept the UN seems it seems you know fairly weak in this in South Africa they had a Truth and Reconciliation conference in the early 90s so however having some global and a forum where people from all over the world could come together so Sofia okay well with the panel support a global forum to decide the outcome of this and with the parties agree with the outcome okay a global forum to decide this about the about the embassy question or about the capital question let us pick up first of all then with this question a Cepheid extra if you don't mind picking up on that do the Jordanians have a responsibility here do they have a part to play yes if you go back over the history a lot of people got a responsibility here and the Arabs Nations made it in my view a major mistake in 1947 in not accepting what the United Nations had agreed in terms of the establishment of the State of Israel and they made an even bigger mistake in 1967 when they decided to launch an all-out attack on Israel and but for the IDF would have succeeded and many of the problems which we face now arise from that however I say many of the problems we face now the problems that are faced in particularly the occupied territories are problems of Palestinians who were either very young or not born at that stage and they should not have to take responsibility for the errors of Arab leaders 60 50 years ago so that errors have been made and miss judgments have been made and just wrong policies on both sides my concerns and actually shared with our mobs if only well admit it is how you best get to a final settlement and what role the status of Jerusalem should play in that final settlement that's the issue just to pause for a second if you see the boxes coming around you are we are sort of concurrently questioning and talking and voting let me pick up on the question that you made and I think was to Natasha should the Jews and I think you said should we Jews show a bit of humility in this does the first offer the first step in this have to come from the Jewish people I mean I'll come to that just before the reference to the Philistines is an attempt to rewrite history that I've not come across before but I've already explained the origins of Palestinian nationalism what's important to notice course is that the Palestinians in the West Bank and those in the Gaza Strip are very different they're different in dialect in culture in appearance and that's because they come from different places the most common name in the Gaza Strip amongst Palestinian Arabs is Alomar's room it means the Egyptian which is where many of them originally come from so let us bear in mind the reality of the people that now identify themselves as Athenians I have no truck with that garden and I wish and I hope and I yearn for peace the issue with risk the issue you have no truck with it if God calls herself a Palestinian no and I have no truck for that now it matter what I what I what I must insist against is this notion that this identity existed 70 years ago because if it did the UN would have referenced it just just to answer well to answer your question Emily no let's deal with that one right now okay data I really would advise you not to start challenging the geographical origins of particular Palestinians for the Jewish people's plural who has come from all sorts of places all over the world that's an incredibly dangerous argument for you to deploy very briefly I've just so also just outlined what the position is today but importantly in the question here is whether we learn from history and I think that goes to the answer to your point because Israelis have seen over the last 70 years that every time they make concessions the result is blood on the streets only a crazy person can be expected to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different okay I'm gonna let garner come in on that one I don't know what these concessions are that you're talking about I haven't come across any of them but really you know you must again sorry I don't mean to scold you but you you really do need to be clear that the people of Gaza and the people of the West Bank are Palestinians they're the same people they are separated by an Israeli regime of draconian regime which prevents the people of Gaza from going to visit their relatives and the West Bank there are the same people let's say get that quite straight and al Masri for your information is a well-known Nablus family so on this panel and then we're going to ask you to summarize yeah well I have a chance yes number one talking about you turning back to 67 lines when was Gaza United with the West Bank never now this is not an incident this is not a mistake that miscomi say a maid she doesn't want to recognize the separate existence of the State of Israel is a sovereign state therefore she argues about this Gaza in the West Bank they never were united they always were separated before 67 they were separated because that's number one they were separated because their arms in the Arab countries were against the 47 partition resolution they were against it not we voted for you they were against you that's number one number two we can go into a debate about the history and about the geographical limits this is something that all those who are not prepared to look to the future finding so so delightful to be indulged in okay I don't want to argue about the history I am talking about the present situation yes I am in favor of two states an independent Palestinian state in borders based not identical based literally to the last centimeter on 67th right and Jerusalem is the capital of the state of israel and the arc Jerusalem is the capital of the for the king and si who support we are running out of time yeah position very quickly a small point to a mr. Olmert before 1948 before there was an Israel Gaza and the West Bank were part of the same country and they are the same people which come it is res rel which country meets what was then their country in Palestine you're running out of time ladies and gents this is what our closing speeches are for I am sorry that we didn't get two more questions and Fraser from Scotland perhaps our speakers want to just incorporate a little bit of that thought is it time for a global forum to look at this objectively it's a big ask that in two minutes we're going to do that in reverse order you should all have voted by now and then I'm going to bring you the final tally so I'm going to ask Jack Straw if you would now go first thank you very much what first time I was asked whether London should be a shared capital well this it doesn't arise because there is as it were one people's we should covered by London and as I go back to my earlier point the situation in the Middle East and I will not least over the status of Jerusalem is unique there isn't any parallel anywhere else in the world which is why we have to find a special solution for the problem um I finished really where I began like our own what I strongly believe in a two-state solution based on the 67 borders it can only happen as Prime Minister Theresa May has said by negotiation in those negotiations each side has got to give concessions one of the critical concessions which was always there - as it were a card to be played in those negotiations up until and still is internationally until Donald Trump's unilateral decision about the Accord he gets to Jerusalem was the status of Jerusalem and my view last point is that those negotiations will be facilitated by continuing to retain the question of the status of Israel internationally until there is a final settlement of this issue thank you Jack Straw thank you very much you have two minutes for your closing speech I want to repeat Simon hey we can't escape it we can't ignore it and we can't run away from it it can be only one solution that I believe can create an entirely new momentum for the Israelis and the Palestinians and the entire Middle East and this solution is based on two states one for the Palestinians one for the Israelis the State of Israel exists the Palestinian state has to be created we ought to pull out from the territories this was the position of the Israeli government was never never adopted on that basis by the Palestinian Authority regrettably now miscomi wants to suggest it i wasn't genuine and I proposed it to Abu Mazen Abu Mazen say time and again publicly and I can refer you even to the 11th of February 2011 to the New York time magazine where he and me were interviewed together I mean separately but for the same for the same article and he said about all that I say then that I said I proposed to him that it is a hundred percent accurate so he thought that this was genuine he had problems difficulties I don't care what I say is this this is the only way to do it and Rosalyn is the capital of the State of Israel will forever be the capital of the state of israel and the only way to convince the Palestinians to sit down a concluded is to recognize that fact by the international community [Music] gotta call me your two-minute closing speech yeah listen I am fine much they're really very depressed to listen to this stuff honestly you know defending the indefensible is an art that many Israelis have perfected and many Jewish supporters of Israel but but the reality is the reality is that the Palestinian people have been produced their rights have been produced what this is really about is the fact that a very great injustice has been committed against the Palestinians and the idea that Israel can put itself forward as some kind of enlightened entity as a hood omelet would like to say is not is free almost obscene because of the effect now just two very quick comments on the the question of two states I know that a hood omelet is very keen on this because it was something that he achieved that he believes were something he put forward and he believes was a very noble gesture on his part the trouble is mr. on that it's in the past it's gone it isn't possible to talk about to States and it was never just any way to have had two states it is my contention and that of so many people I know Palestinians and Jews and Jewish Israelis that the only way forward for this awful conflict is for us to share the land share the land and create one Democratic state for all of us that is the only just solution jarred akami thank you very much our last closing speech Natasha Houston well they say you can only make peace with your enemy but that's half the equation isn't it your enemy needs to want to make peace with you and nothing can happen until they reconcile themselves with your very existence I want to be clear the Palestinian people are being oppressed by a genocidal dictatorial terrorist regime called Hamas and the corrupt Palestinian Authority I have never had any truck with Palestinians and neither have my family in fact before the terror they were in and out everyone into Gaza and the West Bank what happened Palestinian terror that necessitated separation so we need to be clear on that point and in my experience the majority of Palestinians I come across don't have much talk with Israelis unless they are indoctrinated from kindergarten as they currently now on the Gaza Strip to believe that the highest calling in life is to kill as many as Raley's as possible the issue on deaths is one that I find incredibly distressing because between 300,000 and half a million people have been killed in Syria so far where is the international outrage Dan Gilman an ambassador to the UN once said something that you'll have to look up because I'm out of time but ladies and gentlemen it encapsulated the heart of this conflict part of the battle is to dispel these lies and I have no compunction in doing so [Music] it's crunch time you've heard the debate you've heard the speeches you've heard the questions from the floor and I'm going to remind you now of the figures at the start of the evening as you came in 27% of you were for the motion 27% of you believed the world should recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital 46 percent of you were against that motion and 27 percent of you were undecided at the end of the evening in favor of the motion 37 percent against the motion 61 percent undecided has shrunk down to just 2 percent so we've got rid of all those people who couldn't make up their mind they have now firmly made up their mind it is a swing vote of 3 percent and it just remains me to thank all of you for coming and are excellent phenomenal speakers for showing so much of their thoughts receiving you

Channel: Intelligence Squared

Views: 135,680

Rating: 3.3173625 out of 5

Keywords: Jerusalem, Israel, Donald Trump, USA, Palestine, peace process, Oslo Accords, Ehud Olmert, Natasha Hausforff, Ghada Karmi, Jack Straw, Emily Maitlis, Debate, oratory, great oratory, debating, intelligence squared debates

Id: YGN15Ibx7ok

Length: 85min 6sec (5106 seconds)

Published: Wed Oct 24 2018