Dating A Narcissist? Here Are Some of the Red Flags | Dr. Ramani on Women of Impact

and that's what narcissistic people do they shut the lines of communication through manipulations that wasn't my intention through gaslighting there's nowhere to go at that point so the relationship lacks intimacy because there's no sharing [Music] hope you enjoy this episode brought to you by our sponsors at athletic greens to receive a free one-year supply of vitamin d and five free travel packs with your first purchase visit athleticgreens.com lisa enjoy the episode if i was enough he would love me if i was enough he wouldn't cheat on me if i was enough this aching feeling of not being enough is common with someone who is in a relationship with a narcissist but you stay you keep making excuses you keep hoping they will change but no matter what you do how hard you try they just get angry they lash out they gaslight you leaving you feeling insecure and not enough now on the flip side these days we seem to be throwing around the word narcissism like it's confetti on new year's eve the second someone displays even a trait we immediately slap on the narcissistic label and ship them off to narcissismville with no return address but today's women of impact a licensed clinical psychologist professor of psychology a distinguished speaker and sought-after expert with appearances on red table talk cnn oprah forbes and new york times to say the least is here to explain and break down the signs and characteristics we can look out for the behaviors that can accurately identify a true narcissist so that we can then make the decision to stay or leave with our eyes wide open so guys please help me welcome the best-selling author of should i stay or should i go surviving a relationship with a narcissist the narcissism expert herself dr ramani hello hello sidney welcome to the show thank you so much thank you for having me of course i am beyond honored um and i just want to absolutely dive deep into this subject in order for us to be able to identify so that when we either go in a relationship start a relationship or continue a relationship we just do it with our eyes wide open and so where i would like to start is for you to break down the four types of narcissist uh narcissists i don't think there's actually more than four so you're gonna you're asking for more than your bargain for um so they're sort of the classical grandiose narcissist and this is often what we think of as sort of the textbook arrogant charming charismatic confident you know sort of really holds the room and while initially they're incredibly enticing right because they're so much larger than life they can often be quite successful before long probably in anywhere if you're dating them between 4 and 12 weeks the blush is going to fall off the rose kind of thing and it's going to be that they're much more you'll see that they're getting bored with you that their superficiality really becomes problematic they are very contemptuous and dismissive and invalidating largely because they're so insecure we go then to the covert narcissist the covert narcissist is much more vulnerable sullen angry at the world and instead of the big arrogant entitlement what you tend to see more of is it's an angry victimized entitlement like the world never gives me what i want everybody's against me everyone's out to get me and so there's just sort of it gets heavy and tiresome but initially covert narcissists feel very anxious like you want to rescue them then there are the malignant narcissists the malignant narcissists are probably the most dangerous of the narcissist not only do they have all the usual qualities of narcissism the lack of empathy the entitlement the grandiosity all of that they also are very exploitative they can be paranoid they're sadistic there is a there is a much more deliberate cruelty you're more likely to see sort of if not physical violence a lot more emotional abuse in these relationships people feel very menaced and unsettled you might see more coercive control here the fourth kind of narcissist is someone we call a communal narcissist the communal narcissist cares very much about being viewed by the public as a as a savior or a rescuer i'm rescuing animals i'm doing i'm making this important documentary i'm so important what i do for the world is so important and so the world often they get their validation the communal narcissist has all the usual stuff of narcissism but they get their validation by being viewed as a do-gooder or a humanitarian or something like that but they're actually just as interpersonally difficult as any of the other narcissistic people but people will often miss it because they're so they look so wonderful there's the neglectful narcissist these are the narcissistic relationships where you're literally not even seen it's as though unless they need you it's almost like my coffee cup i'm not going to notice my coffee cup unless i need my coffee but otherwise i'm not going to pay attention to it all day they tend to view people through that lens of seeing them as conveniences and objects they turn to when they need them they almost have very little need for people unless it's forwarding their cause and people in these relationships will literally feel as though they're invisible and completely unseen then there's the self-righteous narcissist the self-righteous narcissists actually initially seem really moralistic and loyal whether that moralism comes through like religion or commitment to like the cause and there's a right way and there's a wrong way to do things they're incredibly judgmental of other people self-righteous narcissists tend to live very well ordered lives so they'll mock the way other people eat the way they dress if they didn't go to the right school if they don't live in the right place and so people in relationships with self-righteous narcissists feel like they're always the 12 year old child who's being scolded for their bad habits so there's actually more than yeah that was so amazing i have so many questions so let's even just take the last the last one as you were describing it i also think of it as like wow that's also the behavior of someone that's extremely insecure in themselves so they're putting someone else down because they're insecure but would you say that if someone's insecure they're directly a narcissist how would you separate the two and go wow they're a narcissist or they're just wounded they're insecure and so they're doing that to um protect themselves okay so everybody's insecure i haven't i've i can count on one hand the number of human beings i've met on this planet who are just simply secure in themselves because here's the bottom line secure people don't lash out at other people right secure people will say i know who i am and i know what i stand for and they know they're not always going to get it right they're not always trying to overcompensate they apologize when they wrong they're wrong and they'd never deliberately you know again lash out or attack another person they have empathy so the right you know i always say it's the difference between the pathologically insecure and the conventionally insecure the conventionally insecure is all the rest of us right people who have we all have wounds and those wounds are often where we're not graceful or we get really stressed out or we get upset the difference is is when you're conventionally insecure and you say the wrong thing maybe you bite someone's head off maybe you are um you respond in a way that's very reactive and unkind maybe you don't check in on someone's feelings a conventionally insecure person will detect that rather quickly and say i should not have said that and will attempt to make amends very quickly and say you know if i let's say you and i had an argument and i snapped your head off and i call i'd call you back and say lisa what i did i'm so sorry that was not your responsibility or your problem i had a tough day but that wasn't your problem and i'm so sorry and again my excuse is not even meant to be a way to get out of this i'm telling you about my day but at the end of the day i hurt you and i'm sorry that's what a conventionally helpfully insecure person would do a pathologically insecure person that ends up getting coupled with all this narcissistic stuff the lack of empathy the entitlement the grandiosity the validation seeking all of those narcissistic defenses they protect that insecurity that's not processed a conventionally insecure person will say i know what my insecurities are i'm insecure about my weight or the amount of money i have or my job i know that about myself and so i know that when i'm in certain groups of people i'm not at my best and a conventionally insecure person might even make decisions accordingly saying ah i don't know if i want to go to your fancy party tonight like that's not my that's not my crew i don't feel good and they'll make their choices according right so that a conventionally insecure person can be reflective they can be empathic they can be aware of what their wounds are they can they can make amends for when they get it wrong you see the difference so yeah i agree that narcissistic people are wounded i will never disagree with that in fact more than a few of them have had traumatic backgrounds but that doesn't is that's not an excuse for your present behavior you don't get to say i'm wounded and that's your get out of jail free card it doesn't work that way i understand that you're wounded go do the work okay go do the work before you take this out on other people and expect everyone to be your enabler while you lash out at them because of your wounds that's not acceptable god i love how you break that down because there is sometimes such a fine line it was kind of like what i was saying in my intro where there are really true narcissists and it can be very detrimental to a person if they're in a relationship with them but then there's also the side of people now just kind of labeling anybody that shows one trait of a narcissist so what do you think are misconceptions that people currently have on what narcissism is or how to even identify someone that is so traditionally a major misconception about narcissism is that it was self-love that these are people who are in love with themselves and love to look in the mirror they even look at the myth of narcissists and how he fell in love with his reflection and all of that nothing could be farther from the truth they don't love themselves in fact they despise themselves more than the rest of us might actually not like ourselves like they really really it is a disorder of of sort of self-hate of deep insecurity of dysregulation and everything is about this fear of sort of their their deficits getting found out of the world seeing that they ain't all that right but they're not in touch with any of this so you can't play to that and say i get it you know you have these vulnerabilities and they'll say how dare you tell me i have vulnerability so you can't connect with them right so the misconception is that they love themselves well that let's clear that off the decks they they look in the mirror a lot to play into that validation seeking because they're so superficial their emotions don't go deep right and because if their emotions went deep that's too much of a threat to them so they're very superficial and shallow and everything so looking at themselves a lot in the mirror is part of that shallowness now what people don't understand about narcissism is it is it's a very very you know sort of insecure primal state where the person almost isn't fully formed they're very emotionally stunted they don't know how to self-suit they don't know how to regulate they don't know how to be present with other people they think the rules don't apply to them and they they're sort of like a child ties a little towel around their neck and runs around the house and says i'm superman the reason a child ties a cape around their neck and says i'm superman is because children don't feel powerful so they have fantasy play in which they're powerful but as a child goes through healthy development they start to realize that they don't have to be a grandiose hero they just need to be themselves but since many children never get that lesson that they're loved for just who they are that is there's a risk of then developing into the narcissistic adult where honestly instead of six tying a towel around their neck at 46 it's like look at my car the towel around the neck you know it's the same thing it's just doing it's different in adulthood because they need to feel like a superhero and so when we think about narcissism it's a laundry list of things it's like i said lack of empathy entitlement grandiosity superficiality validation seeking inability to regulate their moods when they feel frustrated or disappointed it's arrogance it's control it's sensitivity to criticism just because someone's not nice to you doesn't make them narcissistic old package and and at the end of the day narcissism to me is like a bucket right if i need to get water from one side of a place to another it's certainly much easier to put it in a bucket than putting it in 20 individual glasses but the the issue then becomes as we oversimplify those 20 individual glasses or all the different patterns and symptoms and maybe a person would say well actually i'm calling this person narcissistic because they don't hear me and then i say break that down like is it that they don't have empathy like what's happening before people use the label because it is very dismissive and but i have to say lisa for a lot of people are struggling through these relationships it takes a long time before they use the word they're saying and now i get this like now i have a word for this i do some people do use it very quickly and they're probably not using it properly but the people who've been in it for years and say oh this is a thing and now i get it then that's a different issue yeah it's really been more at least from my perspective a recent thing that's come on my radar of a lot of people um just white labeling people as narcissists so i really like the way you broke that down um what about the people that think that it's somebody else so it's they're doing this they're a narcissist they called me too sensitive because i've heard you say if someone calls you you know says um oh you're just you're taking it personally you're just way too sensitive it's a sign that that could be a potential masters person but what on the flip side if you are too sensitive um how do you differentiate between i'm insecure and i am being too sensitive and i don't feel good about myself and so you say something and i take it insultingly or that person really is gaslighting you putting it on you and it actually isn't your fault well i think that it's here's the thing in a relationship everybody has to take accountability okay i really don't ever really like calling anyone too sensitive i think it's that we take in our experiences like even when i say that a narcissistic individual is sensitive to criticism maybe what i should say the better way to put it is not sensitive to criticism they're hyper reactive to criticism so when they somebody criticizes them they'll yell at the other person in a really almost terrifying way that's very different than somebody who's like oh why don't they like me and this and that and then you talk it through with that person they'll often they're really they'll hit the other person with a wave of rage so it's a hyper reactivity maybe that's the better way to put it i think people take things in the way they take him and that some people will say that it's almost like a it's like a calibration like a little sensitivity meter we have on us and for some people based on their their experiences in life they may tend to maybe it's not even sensitivity as much as you're putting as personalizing right one of the most important things in the world is say they said something and i'm having an experience of it but it's it's not about me they said it and then i have the right to ask them say can you tell me more about that you know and um they'll and they might even not think anything of it but you can ask for clarification that's why i'm saying yeah obviously in any relationship in any transaction if you will in a back and forth between two people is that you both have responsibility and the responsibility people have when they talk to each other is respect empathy and clarity okay so respect empathy and clarity every time so when you're saying something to someone you want to say okay am i saying this in a way that's respectful am i actually hearing them am i aware of how i may be impacting them and am i really going you know ensuring that i'm being very clear and checking in with them to say you know is what i just said does that make sense am i clear and then the other person has the same responsibility of respect empathy and clarity okay that and if you have the sort of basic rules of this so i think one of the and where this starts getting challenging is is that a real danger is that most people who are in narcissistic relationships blame themselves they blame themselves for what's happening that you you open you know you open the show with i'm not enough i'm not enough where do you think that comes from they're blaming themselves for somebody else's behavior so i'm very very very careful to never blame someone for saying well gosh you know this person was um you know they're they're really short in their texts to me and if i was working with someone i'd say okay they're very short in their texts can you resp um communicate with them and say you know i'm say i'm struggling a little bit with your text they're very blunt they're very short um you know and i'm can you give me some clarity on that because i'm sort of experiencing them in an uncomfortable way if you're that clear and the other person says what is wrong with you red flag but if you say that to someone the other person says you know i apologize i'm managing three kids at home i have a lot going on so yeah my texts are short i can understand how they would feel uncomfortable so i apologize for that but i am really busy then they've given you context now it's on you they've just told you they're busy okay they're telling you they're giving you some back they're respectfully acknowledging your concern then it's if you're gonna then keep complaining to them oh you know they just told you they've got three kids and you then you need to move on because obviously then this you need someone who's able to give you something very different but i think too many people try to draw water out of empty wells they want people to communicate with them the way they want this isn't working for you then leave do not try to transform someone into something they can't be so what ends up happening is years they tried they're like this is bothering me you're too sensitive i'm struggling with this what's your problem you know when you said that i never said that you know they're going through 20 years of this this isn't them misinterpreting one thing this is them having gone to this 10 000 times and so at that point they're not going to change what are you going to do well i want them to change i said that option's not on the table they're not going to change what are you going to do and so when i say listen you can stay that that's that's not my call to make for you that's your call to make for you you need to put on your big big person pants and recognize like this is your call the thing i'm not gonna ever support you like i'll stay if there's no if this is it this is who this person is you stay and this is how it is oh that was so strong oh my god just that one word makes all the difference um that's so strong um i've heard you give examples which i always find very powerful because it really is like almost acknowledgement like oh okay dr romani said that if they say this it's a red flag so i love being able to identify very specific rev players and you have said which i would love to talk about a quote of you as you said benefit of the doubt is code for enabling um so is that you should never give anyone the benefit of doubt can you explain that and break that down for me i listen you know i'm a big fan of the rule of threes you know you can try something three times and if after the third time it is you keep giving someone a lot of benefit of the doubt that's on you that's on you at that point to say okay you know but if you're at your 55th benefit of the doubt you're now an enabler right right but you know yes one time a person may be late okay and they may even tell you they may even text you and say my my whatever my work meeting went long i'm going to be 30 minutes late so they communicate clearly or maybe they don't you might say to them hey you know what when you're going to be this late because my time is really challenged it would actually be helpful for me to know i might have actually gone back to my car run an errand then they show up 30 minutes delayed again and then like ah they did tell me they live on the other side of town so you could say listen it seems like being late to issue so maybe what we should do since you have all this traffic let's always budget this one hour full time and so maybe we can shift the time you they show up late again at that point you're saying this person's always late there's no more benefit of the doubt at that point you have the conversation with yourself and say i'm either going to go and accept the lateness and if the lateness doesn't work for me this isn't going to work so then you're having that's what i'm saying is that the benefit of the doubt maybe once maybe then there has to be communication on what is happening here the person may say i'm never going to be on time i'm telling you that right now that's i'm that's not my group so if we could set things up that i show up when i show up and you might say no that doesn't work for me that doesn't respect my time that's fine game over i think the problem is people want it the way they want it they're like well i don't i i want to give them the benefit of the doubt and i want them to be on time like that's not an option they're not going to be on time and i think everyone almost becomes a child they want what they want wanting what you want is fine wanting it from something that can't give it now we're back to the drawing the water from the empty well and i think it really then it's the responsibility we have to hold for ourselves and this is where the ancient issues people have a feeling they don't deserve more so from childhood people might have gotten the lesson that you don't matter um we don't value you you're not important so when that trails us into adulthood we think like we don't deserve someone to show up on time or who am i to question somebody on whether they're late but this resentment is growing up in us in in us it's okay to ask for what you want and then you have to accept that you may not get it from this particular person oh my god that's so true and like i that's like one message that i remind myself every single day it's communicate but just because you're communicating doesn't then mean that you actually get it but there is some form of well if i've said it then it means that you have to acquiesce and like that it just doesn't happen like that yeah no and especially with some of the narcissistic because they're not listening so that you're saying how do you identify these red flags once you've communicated about something three times okay and it has been dishonored devalued not listened to or invalidated that's it you're done and if you're staying at the table after that it's then time to recognize what are this is why i'm saying education about narcissism is so important because for many people they don't get it so now a person's out there saying three times i gave someone benefited out three times we had the same issue now i know there's there's no there there and but again it's then if that work of devaluation and understanding that about yourself that you might say i don't deserve better that's your narrative that's you needing to go to therapy that's you figuring it out because if the be you deserve someone to be on time if that is what you value you deserve that if you're staying in it because you think you don't deserve better then if you've now you're in a cycle because especially someone narcissistic is never going to change that and so that's what i'm saying that doing the deep dive on yourself becomes really really important and the fantasy always has been for the child when a person's a child my parent is going to end up stepping up and being a good person when the parent never turns around and in adulthood we play that fantasy out in our adult relationships i want them to turn around and it doesn't happen and so it's really about giving people the knowledge about what this is so once they're in it they can say this isn't working because with a narcissistic person the earlier you leave the easier it is to extract right if it's after just a few dates or a few times then you're sort of like nobody has that much skin in the game the problem is early in the game the narcissist doesn't like to lose so they will try to suck you back they'll try to hoover you back and that is very seductive so this person who wasn't on time is all of a sudden sending you flowers or sending you a lot of text messages or doing and saying exactly the things you want because it just turned into a game for them it's not about them i heard this person i want to be on time it's more of ooh i'm not going to lose at this game and they'll suck them back in and they'll go back to not being oh my god so you just opened another can of worms so then how do you identify that instead of going oh well they heard me and now they're making an effort because that's what i would i think maybe even revert to initially it's like oh i've voiced my concern i've said that you know they're not um on time and it's okay tell me no at least i'm pushing back because you communicated with them three times and said please be on time and they did not listen to you only when you said you know what this isn't really working time really matters to me it's you leaving that that wasn't you talking and for narcissistic people they're actually very sensitive to abandonment and what happens is that sets in a very unhealthy cycle because people say oh if i'm not getting what i want from this person i'm just going to threaten to leave well that's an insanely toxic relationship cycle you're leaving because they're not listening and now you threaten to leave and now they're on time it's not because they're listening to you it's because they don't want to lose social and then it becomes a vicious cycle right because then you've noticed that by threatening to leave they then give you attention and love but it's not for the reasons you're hoping it's what oh my god that's such a freaking massive breakthrough okay wow like you've just hit me i just need like a second to regroup um there's another thing that you said i'm so loving this by the way there's another thing that you said which is uh that wasn't my intention and the funny thing is that's the strategy i now have been using for the last few months when i'm apologizing to someone i'm literally saying oh my god i'm so sorry that wasn't my intention because even i need them to know that i didn't want to upset them or hurt them but then i heard you say if someone says it wasn't my intention then that is a big red flag okay it's a red flag when they're not showing any care and concern for your feeling so if somebody gets very upset you've done something okay whatever it may be and they are upset and you say i first no matter what you always want to start with empathy always open with empathy that's a rule people should hold and say i hear you you're i can hear you're very upset and i'm so sorry and and even worse i can see that i was i'm responsible you know it was our interaction that's you know that's contributing to this you know please tell me how you're feeling always give that person a chance to share because what we do is we're so uncomfortable with other people's discomfort with us we tend to cut that conversation off because we don't want to hear it but they need to say it and if they feel safe and we're holding space for them they'll share it and say i felt hurt i felt unheard i felt devalued and you'll say i am so sorry i want to tell you it wasn't my intention however that doesn't matter because you're hurt you see the difference between then somebody who just opens up with the person says you hurt my feelings and then a person says well that wasn't my intention you see what i'm saying so it's it's like it's sort of these words get their power in terms of placement and whether or not the person's building empathy in there so if you're really of it because at that point after you've heard someone and held a safe space for them and empathize with them and really took it in as hard as it was to do that they have now they've soothed a bit they recognize you are safe so when you say that wasn't my intention after all of that they'll say no no i get that it wasn't your intention i understand that and they feel safe enough to share an emotion that means that relationship can now go to the next level of intimacy because it's safe but if you shared something with me you say hey dr romney i'm you know i'm hurt because and i opened lisa and i said well that wasn't my intention i've just shut you down i've not opened the door for you to share and that's what narcissistic people do they shut the lines of communication through manipulations that wasn't my intention through gaslighting there's nowhere to go at that point so the relationship lacks intimacy because there's no sharing what up guys i want to talk to you about athletic greens it's an all-in-one daily nutritional drink developed from a complex blend of 75 75 vitamins minerals and whole food source ingredients to support better health and give our bodies the nutrients it needs so many people on our team at impact theory love the taste and how they can get the micronutrients from various veggies without having to cook or having to eat an entire farm's worth of a salad so whether you're looking for peak performance or better immunity and gut health athletic greens is for you and right now guys they're doubling down on supporting your immune system during the winter months they are offering our audience right now a free one-year supply of vitamin d and five free travel packs with your first purchase simply visit athleticgreens.com lisa that's athleticgreens.com lisa and get your free one-year supply of vitamin d and five free travel packs today oh wow so how on earth do you have that discussion with somebody so let's say you do say that and they shut you down um as the person on the other side that's talking to a narcissist how would you con continue a conversation you don't don't i mean see that's the thing there's no work around on this one because now they've shut you down they're basically saying your emotional world is of no importance to me you're of no importance to me where do you go and i think the whole the thing that i'll never get behind is people saying no no no there has to be a way forward no no no there's not because at this point you're disrespecting yourself staying in this conversation and it is just going to get more abusive so there is no way forward yeah wow i love how simple that answer was that was great and so i want to talk about when you first start meeting someone because you said it's easier to kind of identify and i don't know if you actually use these words but it's a little simpler to identify maybe you're not as close as you can um let's say pull away from them if you're dating you notice certain characteristics but i heard you talk about charisma now charisma to me is intoxicating when someone's around you and they're charismatic like i i love being around them but i heard a cry you're shaking your head i want to read this quote that you said that i love charisma is like heavy perfume or cologne that someone wears when they don't take a shower it's probably covering covering up something else talk to me about that because i like to kind of think i'm charismatic but i don't like to think of myself as being you know a narcissist or you know very heavily perfumed so here i mean here's the thing with charisma it is a um charisma think of it think of the letter u upside down okay when a person has no charisma let's face it there's no interest there's a it's sort of like it's a lot of work i get that then there's that mid-level charisma right it is a somebody who is a a good listener a good talker but they're not sucking all the oxygen out of the room you know somebody who's at the far end of that u the other side of the curve when it's too much charisma it feels like you're at a performance and it's exhausting but i will say especially for people who survived narcissistic relationships i'll say to them you know what you don't get to play in the deep end of the charisma pool like we're not going to swim on that side of the pool because those folks more often than not are a problem and i wonder is all that big charisma why the need for the attention why do they need all eyes on them why are they are they letting other people talk because there's people who can be incredibly charismatic but also very engaging but one of the challenges with charismatic people is they have an ability they they don't look at people they look through people so even though they're looking talking they're listening to you and they're looking at you and they're talking to you it really does seem that they're literally looking right through you to see if someone more interesting is coming through the door that's a real signature piece of charisma there's what's the next better thing than the person's who's in front of me and so you know charisma to me i always say charisma is like an amusement park nobody's going to an amusement park every day but it sure is fun on the day it happened so i always say keep the charismatic people around for about two weeks have some fun have a fling but this is probably not a long game because the charismatic people that is a very almost a cultivated pattern that's designed to draw attention and in the rarest of cases charisma accompanies the empathy kindness respect charisma's also um conflated with something we call extraversion extroverts are people who like being with other people they draw their energy from other people they like crowds they like gathering that's in contrast to the blessed introverts and the introverts do not get their energy from other people they're they introspective they spend a lot of time in their head they actually prefer their group small they're loyal as heck to those people and absolutely lovely but you put them in a crowd of 500 people and they're actually going to look like a deer in the headlights they're not enjoying themselves not because they're anxious it's just not what they enjoy and i'm going to be frank with you i'm an introvert and i do not like crowds of people very introverted like on any given day i would rather be home either with my child or with my partner or with a small group of friends but not with groups of people they and when i spend time with groups of people i'm as depleted as if i've been up for 24 hours like when i give a big speaking like i speak to sometimes thousands of people at seminars i'm exhausted even though it's on zoom i'm exhausted when it's done so that but can a person be a charismatic introvert i think actually a charismatic introvert might be where charisma might be a little bit more healthy because then they might be able to sort of be engaging and really sort of connect in all of that but charisma is a tricky pattern because we always assume lisa that it's it's a good thing and i think people have to be discerning about charisma they have to say is this charismatic person actually listening are they are they you know are they participating in an equal way are they expecting everyone to fawn over them like charisma is like wine you got to know what you're drinking i love that do you think then people who are more insecure are drawn more to charisma i think everybody is vulnerable to charisma because we've been taught it's a good thing what we've never thought is that maybe it's not very how often is somebody said hey you're dating look for the least charismatic person look for somebody who doesn't have much charisma that's not what anyone is telling anyone when they're dating when you think about online dating platforms people are a little more charismatic and look more like that they tend to get more of the hits right so i think that we have so overvalued this quality societally that i don't necessarily think it's that insecure people are drawn to them i think everybody is drawn to them and i will tell you i'm a rare person when i meet a charismatic person i actually have no interest i walk away i find them depleting exhausting troublesome i really will look for that person who seems much more centered less attention seeking and i'm always a winner you know it's always a better conversation god that's so powerful i actually heard you say though that um people narcissists can't change so unhealthy or what we call pathological personality patterns are by definition rigid okay so these are the reason these patterns are so rigid is because people with these rigid personality patterns like narcissism are not introspective they don't look inwards people who are narcissistic because they're so unaware of what the driver is this deep unprocessed insecurity and they're dysregulated they're very impulsive so what many narcissistic people will say is you'll sometimes get and this is what confuses people in these relationships they know what's right and they know what's wrong so they'll throw one of their tantrums and they'll be very cruel and mean and reactive afterwards they'll know they did the wrong thing but that reactivity reduced their tension right it worked for them the nurse is like oh i feel relieved that i got out but everyone else has been devastated by their tantrum they're like okay i feel better now i let it out i'm sorry now and how many times you can have someone blow up on you and then say i'm sorry and the resistance to change is because the reactivity of the narcissist is almost like a reflex they basically want a world where they're like can't you just let me have my tantrums and then i can say sorry afterwards and you have to say that's not how the world works these people are hurt and everyone's not designed to be your pacifier you're not i mean nobody gets mad at a six-month-old baby for crying because it's a baby but in essence a narcissist wants to be treated like a six month old have their tantrums and still have people snuggle them afterwards right that's not how life works so that's what i mean by they don't change some people who are narcissistic will look up and say okay i get it this pattern is toxic i am not behaving well i am not being a nice person i've lost the love of my life i've become isolated from my family i've lost my job they know something's up and then they might come into therapy and the therapists like me would say okay what we need you to be is very mindful you need to be aware of how you your impact in other people you need to breathe and be present with them and they'll be like what i have to care i have to care about their feelings ugh this is exhausting and they're actually kind of put off by what's being asked of them but they know they need to do it's almost like i hate to say it it's almost like trying to lose weight someone's like oh in order to lose weight you can't eat sweets and you can eat hamburgers and you can eat french fries and you have to eat this and they're like that's what it's gonna take and you're like yeah you can't keep eating this when they'll say i don't know about this and so they stay heavy or they stay at an unhealthy weight okay same thing with a narcissist they're like if this is what it's going to take a lot of them say i don't think we can do this so the narcissist does not recognize the need for change until stuff falls apart for them okay they lose their partner their kids aren't talking to them they lose their job they publicly ashamed for something they don't until that point they're going along their lives just sort of making a mess of everything and so then they get called out and there's real consequences like sometimes they get called out there's no consequences so they don't care consequences might be going to jail consequences might be a divorce consequences may be losing their money consequences may be a whole number of things and so those consequences feel real to them especially if they're public consequences i'm no longer married or i don't have my partner i no longer have my money and then somebody do have to start taking the deep dive saying nobody's around anymore like i'm losing everyone and then for and even then those many narcissists are much more likely to blame other people for their failures and problems than take responsibility so they're still like this is my wife's fault this is the world's fault this is this person's fault this is this this is this at some point that they're gonna say they blamed everyone nothing's going their way and a small percentage of people with this pattern will say okay maybe i am responsible for this and i don't like what my life looks like right now you tell them what it means to take responsibility and that's actually something that feels incredibly uncomfortable for them but all change to a healthier place from an unhealthy place is uncomfortable whether it's a person dealing with anxiety whether it's a person dealing with depression whether it's a person dealing with panic attacks they have to go to therapy they have to tolerate the discomfort they have to talk about the uncomfortable stuff to get to a healthy place it's no more different than with narcissism the challenge is is that the narcissist is very very resistant to doing introspective insightful work yeah and what you just said so it's basically it's what's happening to them so they've lost the people so that they're feeling empty so they think okay maybe i need to do something about it versus oh my god i can't believe i just hurt the love of my life correct god got it that's very powerful very powerful and i've heard you somewhat um evolve your data on um the the stats between um how many men and women are narcissists obviously it's a very hard thing to um identify on like the data but i know that you were initially saying it was 80 20 and then you said over time you're starting um to to realize that now it's actually becoming like 70 30 potentially 60 40. what do you think that is is that just us understanding it more and it displays differently in a man or woman or are you seeing that more women are becoming narcissists i think men are more socialized for narcissistic traits we devalue emotion in men they're mocked and made fun of if they're vulnerable like so the way boys are raised away men are raised they're always going to be more vulnerable aggression has a very different like if a man dominates that's considered more normative it's not normative for women so all of these qualities like you know we devalue empathy in men um we men have more privilege so they're going to be more entitled all of that means that just from a socialization perspective you're always going to have more male narcissists there's no two ways about it however interestingly as women do get in some in some places of their lives some a little more power some women do have privilege those women are going to be more vulnerable to being narcissistic it's just that for men they tend to have more of the overt symptoms of narcissism but the big grandiosity the big arrogance the dominance the control those are sort of very male kinds of patterns women may have more victimized passive aggressive patterns so they may not be as in your face but they're still narcissistic and so it's not because we don't it's not a word we use with women as much but oh they're definitely out there and i think that sadly as people get more power in a society there's a greater vulnerability of it but there's also it's also a very developmental pattern too narcissism doesn't spring up when somebody's 30. it's something that was developed through childhood so girls and female children are going to be as affected by this as male children and so we're going to see that those impacts of parenting are there but it could very well be that as as as girls go through um go through their childhood they have more opportunities to develop the emotional muscles because it's more part of their play you know whereas for boys if they're crying they're made they're a you're a loser boys don't cry girl cries it's actually permitted and so we actually create we have to create more permission for men to be emotional that would actually be a big part early young and early parents should not chastise a son for crying we should create spaces for boys to cry that's a big socialization piece that's linked to to sex and gender that we really have to pay attention to and we're not good at that so all of that's also playing a role in this too wow that's so powerful so thinking about a young boy being grandiose or over the top is almost rewarded for it and if a girl is she's told to not do it so over time as we become adults um where the narcissist male is just almost forgiven but the female has somewhat um you even said passive aggressive so it's very different behavior right than being overtly um overpowering overbearing yeah it's very so a woman would not have been those those traits would not have been shaped and socialized her in the same way and so um you know and and listen there's a whole new world of conversations it's gonna come up with with people who are trans right who were who who grew up socialized to a to a set of gender roles and they themselves are struggling with that and they're saying no no no you know that like please allow me to be the gender that's right for me so we're not we're just beginning to explore these issues and trans people and queer people so you know it's i think we've always viewed this through a very heteronormative kind of a lens so but when we think of it in that traditional lens of boys and girls men and women is that definitely that when a woman somebody's viewed as a woman is speaking more um assertively clearly and in a commanding manner much more likely to be pathologized for that be called aggressive to be called unattractive and then if a man is speaking in that way he's viewed as a leader he they'll use the word assertive there they'll view him as authoritative but remember these are developmental traits that come out of insecurity that sometimes come out of trauma boys girls are both differentially affected by this it's just how we value emotion and things like that in the face of it that might mean that more boys go in that direction than girls wow that is um scary and yet very enlightening to kind of know how and what we're doing when we talk to children um and the nuances of that and how that can then manifest itself into you know um how they show up as their adults so um where i've got i literally could talk to you for hours i've got so much to talk to you about but maybe i just got to have you back on the show um i hope so where can people find you where can people find all the incredible work you're doing and your books and all of that good stuff so you can go to my website which is dr romini.com and you know on my website print everything's there the link to my youtube channel and going to my dr romney youtube channel is a great way to just sort of get all this content on pretty much there's hundreds there now to get content on all sorts of things related to narcissism uh my you know you can get my you can look at my books on the website and then you can go to buy them at your local bookstore or you know on an online bookseller and so all of those you know those give a deeper dive obviously and everything you want to know i do lots of regular seminars i have one even coming up i come every month and so you can go to my website and you can get information on those and those give a much much deeper dive and an opportunity for something more interactive so there's lots of different ways thank you guys guys you've got to check out her stuff i honestly went on like this whole rabbit hole of her content her videos her instagram so you go check it out it's so freaking powerful and if you're not following me follow me at least a billion guys if this episode did bring you value please please do share subscribe like comment let me know what powerful thing that she said that really hit you in today's episode and until next time guys as always be the hero of your own life peace out what up guys thanks so much for watching this video if you'd like another dose of bad or arsery make sure you watch this video right here or this one right here because i know you'll like them but hey also while you're here guys you might as well click that subscribe button down there so you don't miss any future episodes and until next time be the hero of your own life peace out

Channel: Women of Impact

Views: 104,661

Rating: 4.935544 out of 5

Keywords: women of impact, woman of impact, lisa bilyeu, tom bilyeu, impact theory, quest nutrition, motivation, inspiration, Dr. Ramani Durvasula, Lisa Bilyeu, Women of Impact, WOI, narcissist, narcissist abuse, narcissistic, narcissistic personality disorder, narcissism, how to fix narcissism, narcissistic sociopath, narcissistic behavior, narcissistic personality relationship, narcissistic mother, antisocial personality disorder, narcissism in relationships, passive aggressive

Id: wAmqHPnFZ-E

Length: 47min 44sec (2864 seconds)

Published: Wed Mar 03 2021