THE CAMPAIGN WEBSITE IS INCREASING THE INTENSITY OF ITS FUND-RAISING REQUEST WARNING I COULD BE IN JAIL TOMORROW. PETER BAKER IS THE "NEW YORK TIMES" CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, TIM MILLER, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR FOR JEB BUSH'S 2016 CAMPAIGN AND HOST OF THE BULWARK PODCAST. ALL THREE ARE MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYSTS. OKAY, PETER, WHAT SHOULD WE MAKE OF THE CAMPAIGN FOCUSING ON THE POSSIBILITY OF JAIL TIME? IS THAT SIMPLY A WAY OF ACTIVATING THE BASE, OR DOES IT SUGGEST MAYBE EVEN A REAL FEAR OF BEING JAILED? >> WELL, I DO THINK, YOU KNOW, HISTORICALLY DONALD TRUMP HAS BEEN AFRAID OF BEING PUT IN PRISON OR JAIL. NO QUESTION ABOUT IT. IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN IN THE NEXT 24 HOURS. I MEAN, LET'S FACE IT, IF THERE'S A VERDICT TODAY OR TOMORROW, THE JUDGE THEN HAS TO SET A SENTENCING HEARING. THERE WILL BE APPEALS. YOU KNOW, THIS IS NOT GOING TO BE HAPPENING BETWEEN NOW AND THE ELECTION. I DON'T THINK ANYBODY SHOULD BE FOOLED, BUT OF COURSE IT'S MORE DRAMATIC TO SAY I COULD BE JAILED TOMORROW, JUST LIKE IT'S MORE DRAMATIC TO PRETEND JOE BIDEN WAS TRYING TO ASSASSINATE HIM BY DISTORTING THE RULES OF AN FBI SEARCH. IT'S A WAY OF GALVANIZING HIS SUPPORTERS TO MAKE HIMSELF A VICTIM AND GRIEVANCE POLITICS ARE AT THE HEART OF HIS APPEAL. THIS IS WHAT HE'S DOING IN THAT WAITING ROOM JUST NEAR THE COURTROOM. >> TRUMP ALREADY HAS THAT DESIGNATED AREA, WE SEE IT EVERY DAY WHEN HE GOES IN COURT OR OUT OF COURT, HE CAN WALK UP INTO A WHOLE BANK OF CAMERAS AND TALK TO THE MEDIA. HE DOESN'T ANSWER QUESTIONS. NOW HE SEEMS TO BE USING HIS DOWN TIME, THIS IS A VERY SPECIFIC SPACE THAT'S SET ASIDE FOR HIM IF, YOU KNOW, THEY GET CALLED BACK IN LIKE THEY DID TODAY FOR A READBACK, THE DEFENDANT HAS TO BE THERE. HE'S USING THAT TAXPAYER FUNDED SPACE AS A PLACE FOR MESSAGING. WE JUST SAW IT IN THAT TIKTOK THAT HIS SON WAS IN, I WONDER IF IT WERE ANY OTHER CANDIDATE IF IT WOULD RAISE EYEBROWS. >> THERE ARE A MILLION THINGS THAT WOULD BE RAISING EYEBROWS IF IT WAS ANY OTHER CANDIDATE. PETER IS CASUALLY MENTIONING, OH, REMEMBER WHEN HE LIED ABOUT THE SITTING PRESIDENT TRYING TO ASSASSINATE ME THE OTHER WEEK. LIKE IMAGINE IF WHEN WE WERE TOGETHER IN THE 2012 CAMPAIGN IF MITT ROMNEY HAD SAID THAT BARACK OBAMA TRIED TO ASSASSINATE HIM. THAT WOULD HAVE DERAILED THE ENTIRE CAMPAIGN FOR WEEKS. THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN FIRINGS ON THE ROMNEY CAMPAIGN. DONALD TRUMP LIVES IN A DIFFERENT WORLD WHERE BECAUSE OF JUST THE AMOUNT OF NONSENSE -- THAT'S THE NICEST WORD THAT I COULD USE -- THAT HE SPEWS OUT ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS, IT'S HARD TO REALLY PIN HIM DOWN ON ANY ONE THING. THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO PIN HIM DOWN ON THIS ONE THING, AND I THINK THAT IS PART OF WHAT IS MAKING HIM SO UNSTABLE AND CONTINUING TO, YOU KNOW, PUT OUT THIS FIRE HOSE OF THIS INFORMATION ON TRUTH AND OTHER PLACES. >> OF COURSE, MICHAEL, TIM IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. THERE IS NOTHING OFF LIMITS IN TERMS OF DONALD TRUMP REACTING TO IT. "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL" EDITORIAL BOARD WONDERS WHETHER PRESIDENT BIDEN WOULD BE FOOLISH ENOUGH TO EXALT AT A TRUMP CONVICTION, WARNING THAT BIDEN EVEN SPEAKING ABOUT THE VERDICT WOULD BE, QUOTE, ANOTHER LOUSY WHITE HOUSE POLITICAL DECISION THAT PLAYS INTO MR. TRUMP'S HANDS AND UNDERSCORES THE PARTISAN NATURE OF THE PROSECUTION. MR. BIDEN IS BETTER ADVISED TO SAY NOTHING. I SUPPOSE THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WOULD MAKE THE ARGUMENT KEEP THE HIGH ROAD. I WONDER IF YOU AGREE OR IS IT MORE ABOUT WHAT HE -- >> NO, NO, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL "POLITICO" IS TALKING ABOUT. WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT? I MEAN, THIS IS THE -- I MEAN, TWO THINGS. ONE, FOR ALL THE FUTURE CRIMINAL DEFENDANTS OUT THERE, PLEASE START BEHAVING LIKE DONALD TRUMP BECAUSE I WANT TO SEE HOW THE SYSTEM, MEDIA, LEGAL, AND POLITICAL HANDLES IT BECAUSE HE'S SETTING THE NEW STANDARD. SO WHEN YOU'RE DOING THE PERP WALK, HAVE YOUR CELL PHONE AND GET YOUR TWEETS IN BECAUSE THAT'S ONE PART OF THIS. THE OTHER PART OF THIS IS EXACTLY THE POINT YOU JUST RAISED. NOW THE PRESS IS TELLING JOE BIDEN, OH, YOU CAN'T SAY ANYTHING IF HE'S CONVICTED. REALLY? HE'S A CONVICTED FELON RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT. YOU MEAN TO TELL ME I'M GOING TO BE QUIET IF I'M THE OPPOSING CAMPAIGN ABOUT THAT? OF COURSE NOT SO THAT IS JUST BONE HEADED ADVICE FROM SOME PEOPLE WHO SUPPOSEDLY KNOW POLITICS, WHO CLEARLY DON'T IF THAT'S THEIR SOLUTION TO HAVE THE PRESIDENT BASICALLY SAYING, YOU KNOW WHAT? I'M JUST GOING TO IGNORE EVERYTHING THAT'S JUST HAPPENED TO DONALD TRUMP AS A CANDIDATE FOR OFFICE AND PRETEND LIKE IT'S ANY OTHER NORMAL POLITICAL CYCLE. IT IS NOT. IT WON'T BE, PERIOD, EVEN IF HE'S ACQUITTED, THE FACT THAT HE'S GONE THROUGH THIS PROCESS CHANGES THE WAY OUR POLITICS OPERATES, AND I JUST WISH PEOPLE WOULD GET THEIR HEADS IN THE RIGHT PLACE ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE AND START REPORTING IT AND TREATING IT WITH THE LEVEL OF IMPORTANCE THAT IT IS. THIS IS NOT A SIDE SHOW. THIS IS NOT ENTERTAINMENT. THIS IS NOT, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING THAT YOU CAN JUST BE GLIB ABOUT AND PRETEND THAT BECAUSE DONALD TRUMP IS THIS FAN TSA MA GORIC CANDIDATE THAT DOES ALL THIS WILD STUFF THAT WE'RE ALL ENTERTAINED BY THAT. THIS IS BAD STUFF FOR OUR COUNTRY. IT IS NOT NORMAL, AND THE MORE WE TREAT IT LIKE IT ISN'T, THE HARDER IT'S GOING TO BECOME. ALL YOU FUTURE CRIMINAL DEFENDANTS, THIS IS YOUR MODEL. I'M REALLY CURIOUS HOW THIS SYSTEM IS GOING TO TREAT THE GUY OR THE GAL WHO DECIDES TO BEHAVE LIKE DONALD TRUMP WHEN THEIR TRIAL COMES UP. >> I WAS TALKING TO JEN PALMIERI YESTERDAY ABOUT THIS, TIM, CAN YOU IMAGINE THEY'RE ALREADY HAVING CONVERSATIONS, PUTTING A STATEMENT TOGETHER. WOULD IT BE POLITICAL MALPRACTICE FOR JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, THE CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY NOT TO SAY SOMETHING? >> ABSOLUTELY. BIDEN IS IN A DAMNED IF YOU DO, DAMNED IF YOU DON'T. THERE WAS A DIFFERENT POLITICAL STORY ABOUT THE ALITO SITUATION AND HOW PRESIDENT BIDEN HASN'T WEIGHED IN ON IT. THERE ARE NO REPUBLICANS OUT THERE SAYING THANK YOU, PRESIDENT BIDEN, FOR GOING ABOVE THE FRAY HERE AND NOT GETTING DOWN IN THE MUCK WITH THESE ATTACKS. IF HE DOESN'T SAY ANYTHING HE GETS NO CREDIT. IF HE DOES SAY SOMETHING YOU HAVE THIS FAUX PEARL CLUTCHING FROM PEOPLE ON THE RIGHT, PRETENDING LIKE HE'S THE ONE BREAKING THE NORMS, WHEN THE PERSON BREAKING THE NORMS WAS THE GUY WHO INTERFERED WITH THE 2016 ELECTION BY COVERING UP HIS AFFAIR WITH A PORN STAR. THAT'S THE GUY THAT BROKE THE NORMS. ALL JOE BIDEN HAS TO DO IS RESPOND TO THAT AND MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE KNOW WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED WHEN THEY GO TO THE BALLOT BOX IN NOVEMBER. >> PETER BAKER, CAN I ASK YOU THE BIG PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTION, CAN YOU BREAK NORMS IF THERE SEEM TO BE NO NORMS ANYMORE? >> WELL, THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION. PRESIDENT BIDEN CAME TO OFFICE TRYING TO RESTORE THE NORMS. HE HAS TRIED TO HANDLE THIS IN A JUDICIOUS WAY. WHETHER IT'S GOOD POLITICS OR BAD POLITICS, I'LL LEAVE TO MICHAEL AND TIM. UP UNTIL NOW HE HAS TRIED TO AVOID MAING COMMENTS ABOUT THIS CASE OR THE OTHER CASE THAT HE DOESN'T WANT TO FEED IN THE TRUMP NARRATIVE THAT THIS IS A POLITICAL WITCH HUNT, IT'S ALL DIRECTED BY BIDEN. THERE'S NO EVIDENCE BIDEN HAS HAD ANYTHING TOO WITH ANY OF THESE PROSECUTIONS OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT HE HAPPENS TO BE THE HEAD OF THE FEDERAL EXECUTIVE BRANCH. THERE'S BEEN NO EVIDENCE HE HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH THAT. THE ONE THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IN NEW YORK HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. IT'S BROUGHT BY A STATE PROSECUTOR. AND SHOW HAS BEEN VERY JUDICIOUS IN KEEPING BACK. IN RECENT WEEKS YOU'VE SEEN HIM NUDGING CLOSER TOWARD HIM, MAKING FUN OF TRUMP A LITTLE BIT. NOTING THAT HE'S FALLING ASLEEP IN THE COURTROOM BY CALLING HIM SLEEPY DON, NOTING HE COULD BE AVAILABLE FOR DEBATE ON WEDNESDAYS. HE'S BEEN INCHING CLOSER TOWARD IT IN KIND OF A DELICATE WAY. THE QUESTION IS HOW HE WILL APPROACH IT AFTER A VERDICT. THEY SENT ROBERT DE NIRO TO SPEAK ON BEHALF OF THE CAMPAIGN OUTSIDE OF THE COURTHOUSE. THAT WAS SORT OF THE GUERRILLA POLITICS WE HAVEN'T SEEN BIDEN PEOPLE DO. SO WE'LL SEE HOW THEY DECIDE TO PROCEED AFTER A VERDICT. I THINK IT'S NO QUESTION THEY HAVE CONSIDERED IT TO BE A FRAUGHT CHOICE WHEN THEY HAVE TO MAKE IT. >> ALTHOUGH THEY DID LOOK AND SEE THAT THE STORY ABOUT ROBERT DE NIRO GOT PICKED UP IN A LOT OF THE NONTRADITIONAL MEDIA SITE WHERE IS THEY NORMALLY WOULDN'T BE TALKING ABOUT JOE BIDEN, SO THEY CONSIDER THAT A WIN. OKAY, MICHAEL, I WANTED TO SEE IF YOU CAN HAVE AN OPINION ON SOMETHING FOR A CHANGE, AND I'M LOOKING AT THIS NEW NPR, PBS MARIST POLL, FOUND A SUPER MAJORITY OF VOTERS SAYING THE VERDICT WON'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN THEIR VOTE. 67% SAY GUILTY, NO DIFFERENCE. 15% SAY IT WILL MAKE THEM MORE LIKELY TO SUPPORT TRUMP, 17% LESS LIKELY TO VOTE FOR HIM. IT GOES ON IN THAT VEIN. DO THOSE NUMBERS TELL US ANYTHING? >> WELL, FIRST OFF, THOSE ARE REGISTERED VOTERS. SO IT TELLS US NOTHING BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE MIX OF THOSE VOTERS ARE OR WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THEM ACTUALLY VOTE IN ELECTIONS, WHAT THE HISTORY IS. THIS IS THE PROBLEM WHEN WE'RE DOING POLLS LIKE THIS. THEY CAN DISTORT THE PROCESS. BUT TAKING IT ON FACE VALUE, IT DOESN'T SURPRISE ME AT THIS STAGE. IT IS MAY. NO CAMPAIGN HAS OFFICIALLY BEGUN IN THE SENSE THAT CANDIDATES ARE SPARRING AGAINST EACH OTHER. ONE IS SITTING IN THE COURTROOM. THE OTHER ONE IS OUT ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL. SO WHEN ALL OF THAT SORT OF REEMERGES AT THE DEBATE AT THE END OF JUNE, AND THEN THE NATIONAL CONVENTIONS AND THE INTERPLAY THERE, THEN YOU BEGIN TO SEE A BETTER SENSE OF WHAT THOSE NUMBERS MEAN AND HOW VOTERS DO DIGEST. IT'S ONE THING QUITE HONESTLY TO SAY, OH, I'M GOING TO FEEL THIS WAY IF X HAPPENS. WELL, IF X -- WHEN X HAPPENS, YOU MAY HAVE A DIFFERENT ASSESSMENT IN THE TOTALITY OF EVERYTHING. SO THAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH ASKING PEOPLE NOW HOW THEY WILL FEEL ABOUT DONALD TRUMP OR JOE BIDEN WHEN THIS THING UNFOLDS. LET'S GET A BETTER BEAT WHEN IT ACTUALLY UNFOLDS BECAUSE THEN PEOPLE WILL HAVE A CHANCE TO ACTUALLY FEEL THE FULL IMPACT OF HAVING A FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED
