>>> THIS IS A JUSTICE SYSTEM THAT HUNTS REPUBLICANS WHILE PROTECTING DEMOCRATS. THIS WAS CERTAINLY A HOAX, A SHAM. THIS WAS DEVASTATING FOR THE AVERAGE AMERICAN WATCHING. >> IT IS SHAMEFUL TO SEE THIS. I HOPE AMERICANS ARE PAYING ATTENTION BECAUSE AMERICA, THEY THINK YOU ARE STUPID. >> WHAT WE SAW TODAY WAS AN ABSOLUTE TRAVESTY OF JUSTICE. THIS WAS NOT LAW. THIS WAS NOT CRIMINAL JUSTICE. THIS WAS POLITICS. THIS WAS A POLITICAL SMEAR JOB. THIS WAS AN ATTACK JOB. THIS IS WHAT YOU SEE IN BANANA REPUBLICS. IT IS -- I AM BOTH FURIOUS AND HEARTBROKEN AT THE SAME TIME. >> THIS IS A QUINTESSENTIAL SHOW TRIAL, WHAT YOU SEE IN COMMUNIST COUNTRIES. PEOPLE IN THIS COMMUNITY TOLD ME THINGS LIKE THIS HAPPENED IN THE CASTRO REVOLUTION. OBVIOUSLY, THAT LED TO EXECUTIONS. THIS IS AN EFFORT TO INTERFERE IN AN ELECTION. >> DO THEY KNOW IT WAS A JURY OF 12 PEERS AND THAT PEOPLE CAN SEE WHAT THE EVIDENCE WAS IN THIS CASE? THAT WAS JUST A SAMPLING OF REPUBLICAN REACTIONS TO PRESIDENT TRUMP'S GUILTY VERDICT. NBC NEWS ALSO LEARNED RNC POLITICAL DIRECTOR JAMES BLARE HAD A CALL WITH ALL 50 GOP STATE CHAIRS AFTER THE VERDICT TO ISSUE POST-VERDICT TALKING POINTS AND MESSAGING FOR THE PARTY. THOSE TALK POINTS INCLUDE, THIS IS UNJUST. THE CONVICTION WILL BE GOOD FOR REPUBLICANS. WE WILL WIN THE APPEAL. AND WE JUST ELECTED THE NEXT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. JOINING US NOW, AUTHOR AND NBC NEWS PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN MICHAEL BESCHLOSS. AND FORMER MSNBC HOST AND CONTRIBUTOR TO "WASHINGTON MONTHLY," CHRIS MATTHEWS. MICHAEL, THESE REPUBLICANS JUST IN HISTORY, IS THERE ANY PREDICTION OF HOW HISTORY WILL LOOK AT THE REACTION TO THIS MOMENT? >> WHAT I JUST HEARD MAKES ME SICK BECAUSE THE ESSENCE OF AMERICA IS TO BELIEVE IN OUR SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT AND OUR RULE OF LAW. WHEN GEORGE H.W. BUSH WAS PRESIDENT, HE'D GO OVER AND TAKE TO GORBACHEV ABOUT HOW TO REFORM HIS COUNTRY. HE'D SAY, NO ONE IS GOING TO INVEST IN RUSSIA UNLESS YOU HAVE A RULE OF LAW BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL WONDER WHETHER THEIR MONEY WILL BE THERE THE NEXT DAY OR WHETHER IT WILL BE STOLEN. SO TO HEAR DONALD TRUMP AND ALL THESE PEOPLE SAYING THAT THE SYSTEM IS RIGGED, LOOK AT IT THIS WAY, LET'S HAVE A LITTLE REALITY CHECK. SO HE WANTS TO BE PRESIDENT AGAIN. LET'S SAY HE GETS ELECTED AND THAT HE HAS TO TAKE AN OATH OF OFFICE, PRESERVE, PROTECT, DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION. THAT'S THE RULE OF LAW. HOW DO YOU DO THAT IF YOU'VE SAID THAT, IN YOUR OWN CASE, IT WAS A RIGGED SYSTEM, BAD JURY, BAD JUDGE, DISREGARD THE OUTCOME? IT USED TO BE THE REPUBLICANS WERE ACTUALLY FOR LAW AND ORDER. THE OTHER THING, YOU WERE ASKING ABOUT SOMETHING IN HISTORY, MIKA. LOOK AT 1974. IT'S THE ONLY TIME ON THIS PROGRAM I WILL EVER PRAISE RICHARD NIXON IN WATERGATE. SUPREME COURT UNANIMOUSLY, 8-0, SAID, GIVE UP YOUR TAPES. NIXON DIDN'T SAY, SYSTEM IS RIGGED. I SHOULDN'T GIVE THEM UP. HE KNEW THAT WAS GOING TO GET HIM KICKED OUT OF OFFICE. HE GAVE UP THE TAPES. HE HAD TO RESIGN. GERALD FORD, THE NEW PRESIDENT, DIDN'T SAY, SYSTEM WAS RIGGED. NIXON WAS RAILROADED. >> RIGHT. >> HE SAID, OUR SYSTEM WORKS. THIS IS A GOVERNMENT OF LAWS AND NOT OF MEN. HERE, THE PEOPLE RULE. >> WELL, WHAT'S INTERESTING, CHRIS MATTHEWS, AND I'D LOVE FOR YOU TO TAKE ME TO PENNSYLVANIA, TO LANCASTER COUNTRY, OR TO AREAS THAT MORE WHOLLY VOTED FOR TRUMP. WHAT THEY'RE HEARING ON FOX NEWS OR IN THE AREAS WHERE THEY GET THEIR INFORMATION, FAR-RIGHT NETWORKS AND NEWS SITES, IS THAT, NOT JUST THAT THIS IS UNJUST AND THIS WAS RIGGED, BUT THEY'RE ALSO HEARING THAT WHEN DONALD TRUMP -- IF AND WHEN DONALD TRUMP IS HE ELECTED, THEY SAY WHEN, THAT DONALD TRUMP WILL GO AFTER EVERYBODY WHO PROSECUTED HIM. EVERY SINGLE PERSON, RETRIBUTION. TELL ME, HOW DO YOU FEEL THE PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY IN AREAS IN PENNSYLVANIA, ARE GOING TO BE DIGESTING THIS INFORMATION? >> WELL, INCLUDING THE 58th WARD IN NORTHEAST PHILADELPHIA, PARTS OF NORTHEAST PHILADELPHIA VOTED FOR TRUMP LAST TIME, AND SOUTH PHILLY, TOO. >> YEAH. >> I THINK THIS IS A FOCUS GROUP, A POLITICAL FOCUS GROUP. YOU KNOW, IN POLITICS, JOE KNOWS THIS, YOU KNOW THIS, YOU GET A DOZEN PEOPLE, SET THEM ASIDE FROM THE REST OF THE COUNTRY. YOU FILL THEM WITH ALL THE FACTS. YOU GIVE THEM ALL THE INFORMATION RELEVANT TO THE DISCUSSION, THEN THEY GIVE A VERDICT, WHAT THEY THINK OF THE CANDIDATE. THIS WAS A FOCUS GROUP. ASIDE FROM THE LEGAL FACTORS, IT WAS PEOPLE WHO GOT ALL THE FACTS, UNMITIGATED TRUTH OF WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THIS MATTER, IN THIS CASE. THEY CAME OUT WITH A JUDGMENT IN A MATTER OF NINE OR TEN HOURS. IT IS IMPORTANT, IN A COUNTRY WHERE THREE-FIFTHS OF THE COUNTRY DON'T GET THE NEWS, DON'T GET THE "PHILADELPHIA ENQUIRER," DON'T GET "THE POST" OR GET THE NEWS. WELL, TIKTOK DIDN'T REALLY COVER THE TRIAL. WHAT? OR I HEAR THAT JOE BIDEN COULDN'T RECITE THE ALPHABET. WHAT? THIS NEVER HAPPENED. THIS STUFF NEVER HAPPENS TO MOST PEOPLE. THIS TIME, WE HAD A FOCUS GROUP. HAD ALL THE FACTS, ALL THE EQUAL FACTS, BY THE WAY. THEY ALL GOT THE SAME INFORMATION. THEY RENDERED AN ACTUAL VERDICT IN A MATTER OF NINE HOURS. WHERE WE'RE AT, IF YOU GET ALL THE INFORMATION TO THE PEOPLE, WHICH IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO DO IN THE MEDIA TODAY, YOU'LL GET A VERDICT. THE BAD NEWS IS, THREE-FIFTHS OF THE COUNTRY ISN'T GETTING THE NEWS. THEY'RE LISTENING TO TIKTOK OR NOTHING OR NONSENSE OR SOCIAL MEDIA OR WHAT TRUMP HAS BEEN PUTTING OUT ON FOX. THAT'S THE PROBLEM. BUT THIS CASE IS A GOOD CASE. IT'S PEOPLE THAT HAD ALL THE FACTS FOR 21 DAYS. BY THE WAY, THE LAWYERS ON YOUR SHOW HAVE BEEN FABULOUS. JOYCE, EVERYBODY HAS BEEN FABULOUS. THEY UNDERSTAND THIS MATTER WAS A TRUTHFUL RESPONSE FROM A TRUTHFUL GROUP OF PEOPLE DOING THEIR JOB AS JURORS, AND THEY LEARNED THE TRUTH AND THEY ACTED ON IT. THAT'S REALLY POWERFUL INFORMATION. APART FROM THE LEGAL SYSTEM, IT IS ABOUT AN AMERICAN FOCUS GROUP. >> THIS IS THE WAY IT WORKS, MICHAEL BESCHLOSS. WE'VE BEEN SAYING ALL MORNING THAT, YES, IT IS NEW YORK CITY, AND DONALD TRUMP CAME OUT AND SAID I ONLY GOT 5% IN MANHATTAN. HOW COULD I GET A FAIR TRIAL HERE? >> ALSO AS POINTED OUT -- >> IF YOU LOOK AT THE MAKEUP OF THE JURY, WHICH DONALD TRUMP AND HIS LEGAL TEAM HAD A SAY IN SELECTING THE JURORS BECAUSE THAT'S HOW THE SYSTEM WORKS. THEY STRUCK JURORS, CHOSE JURORS. AS MANY OF THE JURORS, THOSE 12 YOU'RE SEEING THERE, GOT THEIR NEWS FROM TRUTH SOCIAL AS MSNBC. ONE EACH. ALSO A LOT OF THEM, YOU KNOW, FOX NEWS, "WALL STREET JOURNAL." >> WOW. >> THE POINT BEING, THEY CONSUME NEWS FROM A WIDE SPECTRUM. THEY COME FROM DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS. SOME OF THEM PERHAPS HAD SOME AFFECTION FOR DONALD TRUMP. SO THEY LISTENED, AS CHRIS SAID, TO THE EVIDENCE AND MADE A DECISION UNANIMOUSLY WITHIN OUR SYSTEM THAT HE WAS GUILTY ON ALL 34 COUNTS. I'M CURIOUS FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW OF HISTORY OF THE WAY THAT OUR SYSTEM SORT OF IN THE LAST FIVE, SIX YEARS HAS BENT BUT NOT BROKEN. WE TALKED ABOUT ALL THOSE TRIALS AROUND THE 2020 ELECTION, OF JANUARY 6th. >> SURE. >> YES, THE SYSTEM WAS PUSHED. THE SYSTEM WAS TESTED BY DONALD TRUMP, A MAN WHO IS STILL HERE. I THINK IT IS SAFE TO SAY THAT THE TEST WILL CONTINUE FOR THE NEXT SEVERAL MONTHS. >> YEAH, TOTALLY AGREE. IF HE IS ELECTED, IT COULD CONTINUE FOR THE REST OF OUR LIFETIMES, CONCEIVABLY. THAT'S WHAT'S AT STAKE. I THINK THIS IS THE QUESTION WE'VE ALL GOT TO ASK. YOU KNOW, DO WE BELIEVE IN THE SYSTEM OF LAW WE'VE GOT IN THIS COUNTRY, WHICH TO MY MIND IS THE ESSENCE OF AMERICA, OR DO WE NOT? HOW DO YOU EXPECT A PRESIDENT AND WHOEVER HE APPOINTS AS ATTORNEY GENERAL, YOU KNOW, LET'S SAY THERE ARE RIOTS IN THE CITIES IN OCTOBER, WHICH SOME REPUBLICANS HAVE SAID WOULD BE HELPFUL TO THEM. IS DONALD TRUMP GOING TO SAY, YOU KNOW, THE POLICE ARE JUST AS BAD AS THE CAPITOL POLICE WERE, HE SAYS, ON JANUARY 6th? HE'S GOING TO PARDON THE JANUARY 6th PRISONERS AS HE CALLS THEM. YOU KNOW, THESE WERE PEOPLE NEAR TO ASSASSINATING THE VICE PRESIDENT AND CAPTURING THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE. IS THIS WHO YOU WANT PROVIDING LAW AND ORDER IN THIS COUNTRY? WHAT I'M SAYING IS THAT, YOU KNOW, WHAT CUTS THROUGH THAT? YOU AND CHRIS ARE RIGHTLY TALKING ABOUT, IF SOMEONE LIVES IN A PRO-TRUMP NEWS BUBBLE THAT SAYS ALL OF THIS IS SILLINESS AND TRUMP IS THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS BEEN OFFENDED AGAINST, HE IS A VICTIM HERE, WHAT CUTS THROUGH THAT? TWO WORDS, CONVICTED FELON. SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN CONVICTED OF VIOLATING THE LAW 34 TIMES, AND EVEN MORE THAN THAT, DOES NOT GIVE TOO MUCH PROMISE OF FULFILLING THE OATH THAT HE HAS TO TAKE AS PRESIDENT TO PROTECT OUR CONSTITUTION AND OUR SYSTEM OF LAW. IF YOU'RE A CONSERVATIVE AND YOU BELIEVE IN OUR SYSTEM, AND YOU WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO PROTECT YOU AND YOUR FAMILY AND YOUR BUSINESS AND YOUR COMMUNITY, HOW IS IT HELPFUL TO HAVE A PRESIDENT OF THE
