Answering Your Alan Wake 2 Questions (w/ Gaming University & Kranitoko)

hey everybody Welcome to the latest video here on hidden machine I'm joined by two guests I'll have you both introduce yourselves uh Charlie why don't you go first I am Charlie also known as kosoko uh I have my own YouTube channel as well um but most people will probably know me from um either the Alan Wake subreddit where I am a moderator as well as the Alan Wake Wiki which I've kind of been an administrator for for the last 13 or so years um so I'm around I'm around in the community for show let's put it mildly uh and Dean uh yes hello my name is Dean I run a YouTube channel called gaming University I mostly work on long form video essays of primarily the remedy connected Universe I've been doing for about four years now or so um I do other games as well but that's the one we're focusing on today so I'll leave it at that yeah so these are two people that I have have spoken to quite a bit over the last I don't know year or two two two or three years and um have learned a lot from and I have finished alen wake 2 at least once trying to get through a second run but I was left with a lot of questions and I know a lot of other people were too and well I think it's too early to do anything like conclusive in term terms of analysis especially with the new game plus and the DLCs coming I thought it would be fun to kind of crowdsource some questions and see what other people thought and maybe we could have a little panel style discussion here I got a lot of questions a lot more than I thought I I I feel bad cuz uh well over a 100 questions close to 150 I've only picked a few okay good and and part of that is because uh many of the questions were the same Thomas Zayn probably yep yeah lots of lots of questions about the general nature of Zayn but also some some other individual questions that I thought were worth considering uh so if you didn't get picked I'm sorry Wow way more questions than I thought I appreciate all the excitement over the game though um so just to kick things off atalo 6163 on YouTube asked where was the bright presence and who was putting the manuscript pages in saga's path and so I think this is something that I I was thinking myself and uh I guess as we go forward I'm just going to kind of open it up for you know whoever wants to kind of take a leap at it um if you have any thoughts on at all I know these things were kind of just like kicking around different theories right now but does anyone have any thoughts on the bright presence and uh how those manuscript Pages got to Saga I don't know much about the bright presence but I do know that there was something in Alam wake 2 that said that Pages would like float up from cauldron Lake from time to time anyway over the past years since Alan got lost in the dark place so maybe that's the same situation here they're just kind of appearing randomly yeah seems like they kind of I agree with that kind of just like washed uh brought in like a um bottle on a beach side so to speak in terms of the bright presents I we didn't see anything in the game that refers to that but the role of the bright presents in the first game was to drop the manuscript Pages for Allen and was to kind of act as that guide of sort I think we're going to get more information in the DLC or not the DLC sorry the new game plus but it feels like not the bright presence but Alice is kind of acting in a similar capacity where she's that person in the background that's guiding things forward without being seen not the bright presence but a similar role in the story it seems like Alice is filling that archetype that the bright presence filled in the first game in terms of being a guide although that you know the the full nature of that is something that we don't really know a lot about um I also noticed that it's seemed as if when Saga used the clicker at the end of the game the manuscript that had been in the writer's room kind of appeared in reality alongside Allen someone mentioned that on our on our Discord and I I rewatched the scene and I was like oh I did anyone notice that that not off the top of my head now no okay not a lot of clarity here so the um the bright presence itself too like what I didn't notice any direct mention of the bright presence or the diver aside from uh zanen kind of you know briefly alluding to it but did you notice in the 665 scene where Zayn and Allen are you know partying hard uh that zaye had like a toy diver in the bathtub no I must have missed that [ __ ] I didn't notice it initially but then when I think I saw the same tweet with the image and that's when I realized it yeah I missed it as well I missed until someone uh pointed it out after the fact and it's like man what other imagery did did I miss I'm sure there's a lot of Split Second things yeah we're going to have to do a frame by frame look through that hole scenario there cuz I I may need a reminder of the signal of um not the the the writer the special second special cuz Zay was in there and then after a while he just kind of disappeared where did he go cuz that was him as like the still the bright presence so I can't remember why did he just kind of disappeared didn't he yeah at the end of The Journey uh it's just kind of left unresolved and I don't think he's mentioned at all in American Nightmare mm the the only other information we got in the bright presence is 2 years after the Allen wake one which is the Samantha well situation but but again we don't know anything other than that so we never see it again in the lore right and it it's kind of funny because the every every bit of information about the bright presence from the this house of Dreams blog like that is uh it it's prefaced with this is uh me doing my best to recall things from a a hazy dream and I might be wrong yeah exactly so who knows Sam Lake knows so there's definitely something happening where I almost get the impression that the diver bright presence character I know it's been alluded to as just a character for a role but as I consider things more this is something that's very you know just nent in my mind right now but it's mentioned that nightless night the the film the short film that Zayn created is a companion piece to Allen's manuscript return is it possible that Tom the poet the film that's referenced is the companion piece to departure makes sense to me yeah and the fact that the the Tom the poet movie poster was uh reinforced in alen Wake remastered kind of like leans into that theory for me and and also the fact that I I think a a similar version of the poster also appeared in American Nightmare it seemed like that was maybe an idea that was kind of kicking around for a long time this like the the sort of film companion piece uh so while I don't really have like a ton of detailed Insight I think you know as we're trying to uncover more clues and kind of discover where to search for more information the idea of that whole bright presence diver character being something that was just just had a a usage in that story of departure and then maybe doesn't really need to exist beyond that is is something I think worth considering which would also lend itself to Al Alice taking on that role in some way and and you know not so much it's not the the diver itself that matters so much as the the archetype of the guide and I'm curious if this is going to play um if Alisa's final message is going to play into this where she mentions either a going downwards to destruction or be going up to Ascension and the bright presence is associated with that Ascension tier of how the dark place works yeah and the diver being the antithesis of of that in a way you know the diver representing a descent oh my God yes that make sense well all right I'm gonna ask another question here Seattle Black on YouTube asked I loved Dean's video from prior to alen wake 2's release about the nature of Thomas Zayn has uh Allen wake 2 caused him to revise that theory at all it's definitely going to be some tweaks to it 100% now I'm still not 100% convinced that the Zan we see in this game is the same Zan that we're referring to Back in 1970 it definitely feels like something different but um I was actually just uh doing a live stream with Max darrett and one of the commenters I forgot uh the name had an idea and it's going to tie into a lot of the remedy connected universe as a whole that came out in this game so we know that the situation between dor and hatch the situation between Jack Joyce and Tim breaker how they're essentially the same thing split into another world realties so to speak the comment made the assertion that Zayn and Allen are the same people in the same manner as Jack Joyce and Tim breaker are the same person just reflected into a different reality and I think I can get on board with that someone brought that same idea to my attention very recently and I it it was kind of like a oh that it's such a great explanation for why they look like one another it makes it completely simple and easy I mean I think the easiest part of that I would still hold on to my original theory is most likely someone else was the first main character of departure before Allan rewrote to put himself as the main character that just has to be a given um but the second half of it yeah there's going to be some corrections 100% for sure I think I called myself out at the end yeah this is probably not right but it's the closest I can get yeah a little little bit of insurance policy there 100% but there was one last little bit of detail and I think I teased to you guys um in the Discord uh yesterday about some information that I came across regarding Thomas Zayn and I don't know if it's going to play a role in the games at all or if it's just an origin for the name itself with why uh Remy decided to use it so we know like going back in time the first mention of this character is technically death rally with Tom Rhymer now in watery on the one of the posters next to where U is doing his um karaoke they mention Tom Brer as another pseudonym for Zayn correct yes so I got a DM over on Reddit from a user named Chrissy jump and I did not know this and I think it's absolutely incredible so that name comes from actual history a real life poet back in the 13th century there was a poet named Thomas limont who uh one of his pseudonyms at the time was Thomas Rhymer or also true Thomas okay Wow and his entire story is the basis that he was out one day and the queen of elfland Came Upon him and she guided him into the fairy world where he disappeared for seven years and when he came back into reality his poetry he was a prophet he could tell the future through his poetry and he also couldn't tell a lie hence the name true Thomas and then fast forward to later in his life a deer went through town he followed the deer back into elf land and never to be seen again wow which is interesting because obviously in the game Zayn disappeared in 1970 and then Alan was born in 1977 seven years seven years that's that's pretty wild and just in case anyone watching isn't familiar uh so death rally was remedy's first published game uh it's like an arcade style racer but there is a bit of uh dialogue and and and narrative in the game that Sam Lake was uh hired to right and that's his first project you know with remedy that was released essentially you're uh uh participating in a series of races and as you go through these you're Guided by this sort of disembodied voice that uh comes through your car radio that identifies itself as true Tom Rhymer and and he kind of like speaks in this poetic kind of way that would come to be kind of very similar to the tone of uh the max pain games that sort of narration uh similar sort of energy to it so it it it's I was really pumped to see the the Tom Rhymer reference on that movie poster and see them kind of even work death rally into the RCU in a way they've always shown the game poster or the arcade cabinets and things but to kind of bring the lore in uh was really cool but man that I was not aware of that uh whole anecdote about the the poet that's wild yeah it's that was actually insane the second I got that I just started reading Century poetry all night till like 1 in the morning I was like oh dear oh okay wow okay that's commitment that that's that's wild uh okay uh anything else to say on this topic before I move on I I had a completely different Theory as to you know who I guess this this Zan is in the dark place um and I I I don't I I could be completely wrong but what if when you go into the dark place or at least some people anyway there are other versions of scratch so Allan obviously had his version of scratch created because of the in American Nightmare they said that all these rumors and stories of Alan Wake is what created scratch so what if when Zayn disappeared in 1970 because of course Barry actually says in episode 3 in the first game that there's obviously there these things about Zayn so Zayn is still out there in the world um like there's information about him in the world sorry so what if rumors were also created of Zane and so the Zay we're seeing in the dark place is his version of scratch I think there's some weight to that I I've considered a similar thing where it it I we'll kind of I I'll I'll I'll just say we we'll get into scratch a little bit more later I have a couple specific questions but yeah let's pin that I I think there's I think there's weight to that um but I want to open up for a larger discussion on that topic uh but yeah I I've had some similar thoughts and it feels like I just won't get ahead of myself but yeah let's uh let's remember that so um another question I have here uh was from Fernando Fernando oi 5663 it's very funny to try to read a username aloud uh why the Anderson Brothers call Alan Wake as Tom or Zayn since the first game it seems like they don't know Allan or can see through the story what do y'all think uh Charlie do you have any thoughts on him being called Tom yeah it kind of does go back to um sort of the theory I was mentioning actually um so the biggest theory is of course that that people assume is that Zayn is Allan's father but that couldn't be possible because of course Zayn disappeared in 1970 and Alan was born in 1977 as we as we establish but I like to imagine that Zayn has the ability the the this scratch Zay as I like to call him or whatever has obviously the ability to um reemerge from the dark place into the real world and perhaps maybe that is true that and it's it's a very simple theory of course you know him being Alan's father but maybe it is true that this scratch Zan version is Allen's father in a way you know he met I think it's Linda wake is Alan's Allan's mother's name um because in the survival guide it does say and I assume the survival guide is Canon um anyway 100% CU I know the dates are wrong in the survival guard the date by by about a year I think it's because the game was originally meant to come out in 2009 they had to delay it and they just never changed it I I have a feeling that that could be the case yeah yeah so there's a police report that says say that Allan has a hyper sensitivity to light which is why he obviously wears sunglasses he has a condition um and of course you know Zay is this Dark Twisted version of of a scratch then you know it is in my eyes potentially possible that this Zan scratch version is his father because Linda also had like psychiatric illnesses going forward so maybe that played on her mind somehow going forward while Alan grew up that it's a lot to chew on yeah mhm so in terms of the old gods confusing him for Tom I mean we know we have officially established in this one that they are immune to all the reality alterations which definitely goes into the favor but I think the evidence that supports more of that is more ATI calls him Tom as well and he's kind of you can argue in a tier above the old gods in terms of how they interact with reality in general now it could be as simple as they look somewhat similar together or they're referring to them as what was a he had a line of dialogue when we bump into him um in the backstage area of in between I forgot exactly what he said I'll have to go back to it but it made it sound like the archetype of the writer he's making the comparison between Tom and Allen but I'm not positive what it was well CU it's interesting because they're not they don't just look alike they are like exactly the same like EXA down down to the mole and the characters acknowledge it they they you know every everyone's acknowledging it when they see them together so that's why I'm kind of leading more towards the it's the similarity between Tim breaker and Jack choice between Z Zayn and Allen I think I could get along with that sure yeah because then the people who are immune to the different tiers of reality would not know the difference and be like oh no it's just Tom but then Alan even tells ate I you know I'm not I'm not Tom my name is Alan but artti still calls him Tom so I find that strange even when corrected he still won't do it I missed this on my playthrough but I've seen the video posted um and even people on our Discord had trouble recreating the instance but have y'all seen the video of ATI upstairs in the nursing home um acting very upset and concerned and feeling appearing to be have been overwhelmed by the story and not knowing where is yeah and I saw that it's almost like he feels like he's been used somehow like something's used him and he wasn't aware that he was yeah cuz it's it his dialogue with Allan in the back suggested that Allan kind of just ripped him into the story because he needed someone to play the role of you know everything I need help you're the best person to give me the keys to the spiral door so to speak mhm and I don't know if he really appreciated that when he was on his vacation I mean she are going to Rattle I've really gone back and forth through a bunch of different theories regarding the Tom and Allen thing but there is something with Allen's father they they even mention you know the absence of his father in the musical and stuff and there's something going on there and and again this is a potentially a major spoiler but there is a a a lot of evidence for and and a growing consensus for the idea of uh door being saga's father oh that's 100% that's basically confirmed at this point yeah people have been putting on the wiki confirming as well so like might to stop them I mean during the scene in uh the chapter masks uh door just says really I'm only involved because you drag someone I cared about into the story and I'm looking out for her essentially right and uh it so it it appears that saga's own powers are you know uh handed down to her genetically 100% 100% so I would assume that Allen's parents also have some sort of some sort of thing and it's also it's something that I wasn't totally cleared up for me whether or not Allen's sort of you know Clairvoyant Tendencies are something he brought into the dark place or something that was you know awakened by the dark place are there any thoughts on that well cuz if we're if we were assuming that Alex Casey the novels were potentially based on Casey's life then that would insinuate that he was Clairvoyant before arriving in bright Falls potentially 100% And I have a piece of evidence that may go into this it's not about Allan it's actually about Klay stward weirdly enough H so clay um for anyone who's unaware he was just a random guy I believe living in Wisconsin who had to share dreams recurring dreams with Alan Wake leading up to the events of first game and letter went later went to Bright Falls to investigate it but the Allen wake files ends with him taking his dream journal and throwing it into cauldron Lake now we know the dark place does not really work in terms of time so it's entirely possible that because he throw his his dream journal into the lake it caused him to have the dreams in the first place in that circular time sense so in a sense Allen's experience in the dark plays are what caused him to have those nightmares as a kid which I think he mentions on his writing board which then inspired him to tell all these stories and time isn't linear in the dark place anyway it can twist and shape whatever Direction it wants to go so someone in in the dark place in the future could have had their past affected by by being there that's that's something to consider um all right so here's another uh kind of another big question that was uh pretty common was basically asking about the nature of the Echoes and and I I guess just to kick it off I I do feel that the Alex Casey Echoes we experience in the dark place my initial thought was oh these are some sort of signal from reality but the signal is being distorted and twisted in some way so Allan's not seeing a onetoone of uh of of real events but a a sort of a sort of just Twisted interpretation of them kind of being informed by by the dark place by the and the connections to people in the vicinity of the awe and the lake and everything going on at that time when he's receiving the signals but I'm curious what each of you think about the Echoes and uh you know reconciling you know kind of what degree of uh fact fiction is is present in them I think we can take the events um of the echo as kind of exactly what happened in Alex Casey's 2013 investigation but the characters involved it's like making a movie after the fact of the events the reason why um Ed Booker for example was cast in the role for the play because oh wait no he's actually a playright so it makes sense to take someone who's a playwright and make him the playright in this fictionalized account of what actually happened with Casey and same thing with the uh ilimo they just use the characters they had currently and cast them as characters in the real life stuff in the dark within the dark place if that makes sense yeah that was I mean that was a theory I had as well but one thing I noticed is that when you go into um uh some of the places which you can rewi re rewrite like in the um uh in the ocean View Hotel it actually shows the cult of the tree symbol before you rewrite it and it becomes the cult of the word so that maybe insinuates that it's using the people like you say who are involved somehow with the cult of the tree um obviously because you had like Tammy and Tammy and Ed and you know ilmo um they're they're involved in some way you know Tammy and Ed just being part of seeing the ritual and whatnot and so it is pulling as you say those influences Into The Echoes that's kind of where I'm landing on it as well I I feel like I could also have that theory just kind of just blown away by some other Revelation over time because it it feels so shaky to me because there's there's also the fact that Allan is pulling from his own Alex Casey novels like he mentions dipping back into that material almost and so it it it that just adds a a just a degree of uncertainty for me with okay well we are under the assumption that Alex Casey investigated this murder cult in 2013 but it's also been you know and this is something I'm still kind of working through all this so you know just take it as a as just kind of theory building right now but Alex Casey is also when he talks about the investigations he mentions I was following this and that's how I kind of got my radar and everything but he's having false memories implanted at the same time and there is a document that you can find an FBC document written that mentions the the murder cult in New York City but that was also something that appears to have been written by the field agents who are also in the vicinity of the awe and there's no date on that document that was kind of like a really frustrating thing for me to go well is you know if the document was dated prior to the to the A we I would maybe feel one way or the other about it but even then we know that other documents in the game other items in the game are altered you know environments are altered by the by the by the story like in in saga's reality even you know everything with like the trailer and the condolences letter that she got from uh Stacy marrow documents can be altered by the story so there's just a little bit of doubt in me where I go is that really how it happened or or not you know what I mean is it also possible that those sort of documents you you know you say they're altered by the story but could they also be altering the story somehow and like and obviously like you say Dean the these sort of things can then you know revert back on itself you know go back into the past and you know they then become those sort of events and it just becomes a loop if they're created in the vicinity of of the the lake then it seems that they could alter a story yeah the only thing I want to add into this actually I got two things technically so and weirdly enough it is related but the first time we meet ilmo cuso when Saga bumps into him he doesn't know who she is it's only afterwards that the memory alteration for the story starts to begin so the start of the game memories have not yet been altered the second we find the manuscript things start to shift but more specifically after Saga puts the heart through the witch's chest is when it really starts and it goes back to American nightmare with how the rituals worked in that game so in order to alter reality you have to carry out the ritual that you find on page to make the scene match what's written and every time Saga enacts that ritual she's causing the reality to change more and more and more he like Casey has a comment at the beginning when he first finds out it's a murder cult and he just like has that F right kind of comment which makes the implication that he remembers working on a one those before right but although I do isn't isn't the interaction with Alice prior to the ritual or not Alice Rose I'm sorry so and her memory is altered exactly so I'm it feels like it's happening little by little as the story goes on but not all at once right it is and and there is there's a document that says that the story changes gradually or affects reality gradually that's why I just go oh how you know how early what where where is the uh the point where it really starts to kick in and it's it's just hard to tell because it seems like there's there's room for inklings of it to to happen but also I do think that over time it that the timeline is going to make itself a little more apparent I I haven't been able to like really plot that out as much as I'd like to just yet I think it will reveal itself like when kind of the trigger was pulled so to speak mhm Just One Last Thing Before we move on to the next question regarding the 2013 investigation so if Allan when he was younger through his dreams through his Clairvoyance whatever his communion with the dark place saw the life the real life of Alex Casey and wrote his books upon it who's to say he didn't see the 2013 investigation wrote the story and because of the story the real life case they had to investigate it later on in time right so it's just a circle yeah it's just a giant Circle very possible um so this was a two-parter from Michael uh from the attic on Twitter so that was the first part was about The Echoes and uh the the second question here is concerning overlaps so what Michael says here is we know that uh they happen in locations with long histories of violence and folktales and that they need a Counterpoint a work of art crafted in the dark place but there seems to be some confusion regarding which event and which works of art and and I I was going through this on my stream the other day I noticed there was um something about the murder sites and it talked about how you know the overlaps needed to have a a force from both directions in reality but also a work of art in the dark place but at the same time Saga is tasked with creating the works of art in reality that open the overlap for her uh so maybe that's a way to enter the overlap and open them and and then maybe the work of art in the dark place is what actually establishes the overlap like I I you know what I'm trying to say like creating the overlap and entering it might be two separate processes but I'm just curious if there's any thoughts about in general about how you know what you think of the overlaps and uh and yeah and their nature how they how they might work what causes them I don't know if you two have any theories but what causes one location and another location to combine into overlap because you've got the subway which links to that that scene in cauldron Lake you got the ocean view hotel which then links to the nursing home and then you've got the poet Cinema that links to um the well in coffee world what why why are those two locations in those two areas connecting in that way specifically that's something that's that I've been trying to understand myself because you can see when Saga enters the overlap sometimes she'll get a glimpse of Allen's reality and Allen sometimes at the murder sites we get like a glimpse of saga's reality because Allan sees it in a different order um so yeah I think cuz Allan sees the O sorry he sees the valhallen nursing home second but obviously that's the third area that the overlap happened for Saga so it was it was out of order anyway I mean I think it's kind of similar to why certain objects of power get taken and alter items are altered it's these locations have that Collective focus and the urban legends around them I mean the well was the site of those uh the serial killing and then they have the uh Witch is Ladle which is very closely tied with the urban legend surrounding the witch of cauldron Lake and all that stuff like the stories kind of infect the area and makes them ripe to become that middle part of the vent diagram between the dark place and reality right there but I had a second thought when I started really diving into what over laps are and I wanted to get both your opinions on this in light of one of the series that I do do you think that night Springs exists in an overlap potentially I know they've obviously got the DLC coming out for night Springs but in my head that DLC is just like you know some fun quirky oh night Springs episodes but you've got characters but maybe that's what it could be alluding to that there is some sort of nights Rings overlap yeah I I think that in some way yes because the way Allan describes uh night Springs in American Nightmare it it sounds like an overlap like he talks about the dark place and and what goes on there kind of uh you know brushing up against our reality and and creating places where you can kind of slip through and that you know it seems like for the duration of that awe of that story of that you know that thing he's doing the dark place and and the fiction he's creating does literally overlap with reality and I don't know if you mean night Springs as a location or night Springs as the show and and all the things that happen in that show are the in the location that the kind of drawing the line there is uh yeah that's more of the tinf foil theory that I have I allude to in my series on night Springs but I mean like in American Nightmare it's the oil dcks would be the location where the dark place comes out of it's night Springs is not one location it's it's multiple locations so it's very possible it's almost like the overlap is if we're not using the name night Springs as a title but more of a where where the night Springs is in the overlap yes yeah it it it seems that way it seems like uh yeah American Nightmare was introducing us to the idea of overlaps and then um we got you know a lot more fleshed out now in Wake 2 another question here and this is something I noticed on my second playthrough uh Nikita Crest on Twitter was asking why did Nightingale see the cult as taken and I noticed that when when you are Nightingale in the beginning you're seeing the cult of the tree and they do they they appear they they have the the darkness and the dark presence of them do they though because I thought cuz when I watched it back cuz I did think that as well they didn't really have like the normal Haze that a taken would have they do have some sort of um weird thing but I wonder if it's because because he's technically maybe already taken he's just seeing them in that way he's just seeing like a different sort of Aura around them you know a hostile Aura potentially um but it doesn't it doesn't look exact in my eyes it didn't look like a taken Aura I'm actually pulling up uh my video on it right now just to take a second look at it I'm trying to do the same thing just take a look because it seemed that way to me but also uh we saw some of the uh the screen flickering the imagery uh that you'd see like when you were encountering scratch yeah like I'm looking at right now it has that little like spatial Distortion like in the air around them in that particular scene as well there is there is also a bit where as night Andale is walking up uh through the forest there's like this Shadow thing that appears in front of him I I want to know what that is yeah I was just looking at that too I was trying to figure that out I thought it was like a deer that was walking across or something but I could be wrong at that same time where right where right after I think you you see scratch's face come up uh is where it's one of the cultists but it the cultist disappears into a cloud of of Blackness I mean I think we're seeing the dark presence there doing something obvious I mean if we know scratch and the dark presence are kind of interchangeable if that was one of the cultists then maybe it's just a c you know one of the cultists that has turned into a taken so it doesn't harm doesn't want to harm nigh Andale because nil's already a taken potentially so one thought I've been having while I'm while I'm watching this real quick is I noticed that there's no Shadow distortions around Nightingale himself now if we're going from his POV he does not perceive himself as that maybe it's only in relation to something of the opposite Affinity where as some as a being of light so to speak seeing a taken they see that dark Distortion but as Nale a being of Darkness he looks upon the cult and he sees it not a distortion of Darkness but just a distortion of light because it blinds him just as much as the darkness blinds Us by looking at the taken but that just tin foil hat dogen award no nothing to back it up yeah it it's something I I I don't I can't get a good grip I just looked at it again and there is you're right it's not the same exact look as the taken have there is a visual Distortion around them and it it very well me may be uh you know how the take and see beings of light and and and you know other things cuz it was unclear to me if night Andale emerged as a taken or not well because they say that you don't the the cult is to try and stop that from happening right so they it's insinuated from them that they're not taken until a little bit later on down the line when they're left for too long that's the impression I get that it's like a a little bit of a gradual process so it could just be you know yeah it's a slow burn before night Andale does turn into a taken and yeah he he's obviously feeling the the effects of the dark presence already but it's just not immediate because you know in Jake fiser in bright fols he didn't turn into a taken immediately it was a it was a gradual turn across the and and then we're assuming that Jake fiser is a taken um in the bright Falls miniseries I actually have a comment on that that just came to my attention I think last night actually um I got a comment on my initial Allen wake 2 Theory video from months and months back but apparently the actor who played Jake fiser back in um 2010 mentioned that whatever happened to his character he did not become take and something else happened that came from the actor himself but again this has been 13 years so who knows if that's even relevant today I feel like someone else involved in the production also seconded that uh that notion that he was more touched by the dark presence than actually becoming fully taken but still there the the uh the the process uh is described in some documents and it does seem like something that kind of you know it ramps up over time but if if if night Andale emerges and then as he's walking through the forest he he clearly encounters the dark presence uh I could see that being the reason why his perceptions altered when he sees the cultists and when he sees the light especially because it seems like the dark presence is almost like hunting you know in that area like looking for people to to take and and it may have you know uh just started to infect nigh Andale at that point when it when he first encountered scratch through that sort of jump scare style Vision that comes to him wasn't there a page that talked that um for taking Possession It feeds off like the negative energy of a person so you had Mulligan and thoron who had done the thing that they had um which was obviously a killing that person and then they chucked her into that well the hutar well um so the dark present fed off of that and that's why they turned the way they did I I assume anyway like conversely the um kless Brothers on the other hand I hope I'm saying that right resisted it because they had enough personal integrity and personal grit so to speak to not succumb to those darker emotions so we see both versions of that so it it just makes me intrigued on pre people we know from like Alan Wake one who had turned into a taken what negative emotions it was feeding off of what negative experiences from those characters right you know in in that same sense like night Andale as he's presented in the first game is Just solely focused on Revenge you know just blind blind Revenge one thing I thought was very odd that wasn't really addressed and maybe it was uh what the hell was he doing for 13 years like we see him at the end of the first game and then for some reason in my head I've got it that he was in the the dark place hunting Alan because you can find uh his you you find his FBI badge in the overlap but you can also find his badge in the dark place as well as well as that is there I think there's like a walkie-talkie where he does say something I can't remember what he says but he does say something there's a walkie-talkie in the subway it's it's and if you have the subtitles on it's Estes that speaks to the walkie-talkie no there's there's another one somewhere I saw a video that there's another one somewhere I can't I don't know where but he does say something and there's his badge as well so possibly he followed Allen into the dark place or it's a tried to potentially but that's what I'm thinking yeah the idea I got with what happened to him in those 13-year Gap had to do with the original three victims too is I don't remember where it was said but it's implied that when um the 2010 W was done the waters receded and it took with it like a Driftwood back into the lake anything that was infected with dark presence meaning that night andame was dragged back into the dark presence and it started little by little spitting the bodies back out as needed cuz that's all the I would just use the term Driftwood that it had to work with the s new taken out very interesting so like I said I mean we got a lot a lot of questions actually some of the comments I got here uh mentioned some things that you both uh have touched on already which it seems like the there is like a I I don't know just I I'm seeing more and more sort of collective clarity about certain aspects of the story which is very nice because I I feel like there's like a this this like large you know like not like a hive M but just like a a collective of of of people thinking about that these problems and trying to solve them from so many angles every else has got their own little board like Tim breaker does just but it's nice to see a lot of ideas like recurring in different you know places like you know uh just parallel thought on some of these theories but uh so the but the two biggest things that most people were asking about was mostly about scratch and then secondly about Zayn so first I do want to ask you know I I'll just put forward my theory and I'd like to hear what your theories are but my basic understanding of things is that scratch as we saw him in the first game and as we experienced him in American Nightmare was almost you know some sort of byproduct of Allen entering the dark place especially with all that negativity attached to him and his Persona and that was enough fuel for the dark place to take his identity and manifest a physical being that uses his identity you know his his form uses Allen's form and in American Nightmare when scratch Was Defeated that energy sort of went back to the dark place and the the idea of scratch wasn't totally vanquished but that scratch's physical form was vanquished and and it took Allen getting out of the dark place you know scratch kind of hitching a ride with Allen for it to amass enough sort of energy to once again assume a physical form although at this point it doesn't seem like it is manifesting a form so much as it is a form of possession um so it can take you know physical beings kind of enter them I think somewhat similar to things we saw where you know the dark presence was able to control Rose in the first game without fully possessing her it seemed but you know a sort of like temporary form of possession was definitely there where she was you know almost like a drone for the dark presence and and able to be uh controlled remotely in some way and even as you know we find alen saying scratch and the dark presence are interchangeable I think that still works totally you know in line with what I've been saying with just I I think yes scratch and the dark presence are the same thing but it was able to take a form as we know like the dark presence can take many forms forms and is sort of just this amorphous like Cloud that can get inside of things or get around things and and can take you know different different shapes but that's kind of my two cense on reconciling how scratch changed between the first game American Nightmare and Allen wake 2 but I I'd like to open up for uh other takes on that um this is why I think that the um dark presence could potentially like break off into multiple different you know forms scribbles whatever you want to call them which you see them in Al wake 2 um because Zane obviously knew what Mr scratch was when he introduced Mr scratch to Allen which is why I go back to my theory that I think that potentially Zay also has his own um scratch so there's like multiple dark presences out there that create these other scratches um because there's also the bit where um you have the initiation the end of initiation 3 6 and 9 where Alan goes into the writer's room um and it's it's all done in or it's all done in a different in in a odd order um because so initiation 3 depicted Allan finding himself in a chair already dead with the changes already made to return then the dark presence appears and kills him um initiation six depicts Allan finding a full manuscript the return written of of the dark presence escaping and taking over bright Falls Alan begins making changes Alan wrote Saga into the story and she was now in bright Falls another version of Allan then appears and shoots the Ed shoots the Allan that's editing dead initiation nine Alan believed that scratch was rewriting his edits out of return and shoots editing Allen realizing it was himself all along the dark presence then possesses Allen so the order of that goes initiation 6 9 and three in my eyes so if the dark presence appear in initiation uh 9 possesses Allan where the hell does the and so that Allan disappears and goes what about initiation three there's like another dark presence that comes up behind Allen and you know kills him or takes him whatever which is why I think there's maybe maybe either multiple dark presences or they just break off somehow into different forms well scratch at first is described as like a servant of the dark presence so I think it's it's not it does seem like it's not one being so much as maybe a being that does is somehow able to break off and you know be in multiple places at once and I think mhm so I have I actually was taking notes while you guys were just talking real quick cuz there's a lot to get through where my thoughts are so just to start off the taken in this game behave very differently from the taken in the first game just a simp simple fact that their bodies Left Behind afterwards they don't just fizzle up into nothing I always thought it was just a gameplay thing so like I think I have might have more to it and it goes with the theme of you're mentioning like uh thoron and Mulligan were being taken over and how they got taken over in those games but let's just backtrack to the Mr scratch in American Nightmare real quick just with that in the back of our head that one was born from the urban legends about the missing writer I think that one was legitimately destroyed at the end of that game through Alice's documentary Sunshine cuz the whole point is she was showing the world how the real Allen wake the way she saw him therefore the urban legends would have been destroyed about him therefore that scratch could no longer have existed no matter what now the scratch in this game I think it had a different origin point it wasn't in this didn't act in the same way when Allan stopped trying to write return and he said you know what I'm just going to accept this I'm going to stay here in the dark place he was only suppressing his desire for freedom and when you're in this type of reality there was a part of his mind that still wanted to escape so it feels like this version of scratch was born from his desire to stay like or to remain and then he said you know what I'm getting out of here so he started working with Zay on on his own a split from his own psyche if that makes sense yeah I I'm following yeah and of course Allan didn't Escape until he was pulled out by the summoning ritual H so it feels like scratch has kind of become an umbrella term for his doppelgangers yeah yeah man that's a lot to chew on but then on top of that we have the entire the musical sequence of Herald of darkness which if we just break down the lyrics there for a moment it's just saying like you show me the champion of light I'll show you the herald of Darkness right you show me the best Saint in the world I'll show you a demon that lies within is essentially what they're saying and it feels like how the dark presence is working in this game is more along those lines where it's that deeper negative emotion which for Allan took the form of this scratch for his desire to escape that he was trying to suppress by saying I'm going to stay here and the suppression caused it split which aligns with yunging psychology right there so do we do is do we potentially think that the the sequences with Mr door is is him Mr door just trying to say Allan you need to get out this this is what you need to do to get out because I think they were he was just trying to hint out you know in the first one he talked about the hero's journey and maybe Alan didn't realize that until um Mr do reminded him and then as you say de with the with the lyrics there are things in the lyrics that seem to tell Allan hey the you need the clicker this is the master key and that's what you need to do that's what you need to change reality um unexpected rhyming there um yeah potentially and that's just been a reoccurring thing with all of the old gods music is just telling Allan hey dude this is what you need to do buddy come on let's walk you WR I got I got you by the hand here's a little leash let's carry you through the story The OD gods are really the heroes here best characters in the whole franchise I've been saying that since the beginning so I feel like that offers some degree of clarity uh but also everybody and we've touched on this a little bit but maybe if if anyone just wants to give you know what their best summary of uh their thoughts on on this version of Zan that we're seeing uh in the game I my take on it is that it's it's because a lot of people like oh they're reconning things it's like I I I really don't believe that's the case I I think we're seeing a version of zaye that is different from the ones we saw before and the fact that there's a a a part where I think it's Cynthia Weaver is is uh rejecting the idea of Zayn having been a filmmaker mhm she's saying she doesn't remember it that way and I trust her yeah I do too it seems like people who have been close to or touched by the dark presence can sometimes see through the Illusions I think that's stated explicitly somewhere in one of the games um yep so you know I don't think they changed zann I think uh you or in in a way where it's like oh well that one you know the old one doesn't matter anymore I I think we're seeing a a very different character and I do question who and what he is uh especially because I was very confused by the scene where they have their uh you know final confrontation Allen says you know if you try anything on me I'll shoot you and then zann starts doing some weird trickery on Allen I I almost as if that he was trying to get them to switch places I don't know what to make of that at all but it doesn't seem like the same character we were seeing before and I I just I do feel like there's something there with the different iterations of Zayn whether it's Zayn in the first game you know being Tom the poet or Zane in this game being Tom the filmmaker I think that they are somehow relevant to what's happening in Allen's manuscripts but what that really means beyond that is is something I really can't figure out because every time I think I get a little bit more clarity there's some sort of piece of evidence I find that completely wrecks any theories the closest thing I have right now is possibly something similar to the multiple versions of oneself that that Tim breaker speaks to but that that's you know I I know I'm saying a lot of nothing in a way but that's kind of where I'm leaning toward is is is something about this is a version of Allen that was manifested for some specific purpose tied to the writing that he's currently taking on and who knows how many of these versions there have been because we also never really reconciled in awe why Allan and and Tom look identical down to the clothing it almost makes me think that this is this is yet not even the same Tom we saw in awe it's it's there's different versions of Tom that exist for different instances uh as needed by Allen yeah I mean that's that's an interesting Theory because when it comes to the Adu expansion and uh initiation five there are like similarities and dialogue between those two scenes I've noticed so maybe it could be some sort of weird alternate universe somehow but I didn't notice that yet they do have similar dialogue but it's not exactly the same because it's also the very same scene when Jesse appears which is also when she was also looking through the spiral door in the Ocean View Motel and seeing that scene so I wonder if it's two different perspective you know we saw what Jesse saw when she looked through the door and when Jesse appears on the TV that's her peering through somehow 100% it's just a different time she's peering through because if the story is a spiral and each time around they're uh updating the draft of return each time she looks in it's going to appear different if you think of it in those weird words but at the end of the day I my thoughts on zaye just encapsulate it all Thomas Zayn's endgame for this cycle of the remedy games of the story because he has been his presence has been there since the very beginning of death rally it feels like the entire remedy cycle is centered around Thomas Zayn as a character and the conclusion at least of the first uh overarching Arc is about him and we don't have all the information to really make that determination yet I think that's fair to say yeah they they've de they've dealt with you know that archetype of a character even even in the max Pan games there's you know like a a voice telling telling guiding Max at points you know like trying to wake him up and out of the Nightmare and everything and oh tin foil hat three times sure gosh all right so I not to sidetracked off at Thomas Zayn for a second but let's talk about Max Payne and Alex Casey um are we all in agreeance that new game plus is going to be retelling the same the same story but now it's changed into the final draft so things will be different we'll have a new ending I I believe that's what's going to happen yeah and each character that's the heroes have to pay a price for how the story is going to end so the question would be do you think Alex is going to make make it out of the dark place are we assuming at the end of the game the area in bright fools was the dark place appearing in reality so yeah it was an overlap so um in the writing room when Casey shows up the bullet of light and that whole end scene that was definitely still in the dark place for sure and personally I think that's why the phone call didn't go through because you can't get signal in the dark place so the call is never going to be answered to be frank but my line of thinking just to get back on track is if Alex gets stuck in the dark place that would lead perfectly into how the max pain games occur because remember in the first two Max ping games it's always nighttime yeah and in Alan Wake illuminated they flat out say it's not that the story always takes place at night it's just that Max perceives reality is always dark right so my thoughts there maybe max pain one and two happen after the end of Allen wake 2 chronologically so you think they're going to break they're going to bring in those remakes and that's Alex Casey Alex Casey trapped in the dark place so Alex Casey trapped in the dark place is the plots of alen Max paint one and two which brings us back to the point in Max paint 2 there's one of his dreams right next to his desk in the police office is a whiteboard that says wake up and then he has the phone calls telling him you're in a computer game Max as if something on the outside is trying to wake him up back out of the dark place yeah I mean all those themes I mean yeah I just I'm working on a piece about it right now but it it's really it's it's brilliant how just like the first two max pain games every single Trope that remedy would use going forward is established there and the fact that they are remaking those games is going to allow them to kind of loop back into those tropes and and kind of like reinforce them even further and with how blatantly they have acknowledged Quantum break in Ellen wake 2 with the relationship between door and Tim breaker and talking about how you know basically they they've interacted with one another through different lifetimes essentially that he's experiencing through you know he doesn't breaker doesn't understand how what this mechanism is but you know he wakes up in different lives he's living different lives with a different name uh the redheaded woman like the even the imagery of the of his whiteboard is is a mirror of the chalkboard from the lecture hall and quum break they couldn't make it any more blatant without committing a you know copyright infringement um but I I you know it all we can do is speculate at the moment but I I it would make total sense for them to set up something similarly explicit with Alex Casey being lost in the dark place and having to relive these Alex Casey stories and eventually his name would change like the details would change cuz that's what happens you lose a bit of your yourself and you you enter these new personas uh as has been Illustrated you know by breaker's experiences I think there's a lot of weight to that theory and the fact that Rockstar and remedy have had such a um a non-litigious relationship concerning the max pain property like they've they've kind of danced around references to Quantum break in in the other games but they've specifically name checked multiple characters from Max pain in other remedy games um in a way that I think they're I think they have kind of a little bit more freedom to play around with those connections in a way that um I don't think Microsoft would be as comfortable with in terms of intellectual property do you think remedy will ever get the rights to use quantum break from Microsoft or think Microsoft would just not give it to them at all because I think if we ever if we ever hear news of that I think that's going to be a big deal for sure I think it depends on leadership ship you know yeah I've heard some Whispers that Microsoft and remedy have been talking I haven't confirmed any of that but if remedy can establish itself in this next uh cycle of games because I consider everything from allenwick to Condor Vanguard max pain remakes and control to as like phase two of Remedy if we're using MCU uh terminology it's phase two I can see if they establish themselves enough that they can either license or purchase the IPS because Microsoft's not making money off it right now let's be real in F three though so it won't happen for a very long time maybe a decade yeah it it I I think it's definitely possible and but you know regardless even if it's if not they've given themselves a a pretty you know clean Runway to make something else in that vein and have it make sense uh logistically within the stories of everything that they've established no 100% like they could not make it officially Canon and we the community will say no it's officially Canon yeah like we don't need need them to own it you know what I mean well I mean to to to add to that because we've we've got sha Ashmore as Tim breaker so there's already that connection and there was also in the credits Lance reck um being obviously immortalized in in the credits as so memorialized and I was listening to a podcast the other day with um oh what's his name Jason shrier um and he it was either him or somebody else in the podcast spoke to somebody close to remedy and they apparently confirmed that Lance reck was supposed to be Mr door so it was it was going to happen so yeah yeah I mean and with uh Courtney Hope as well definitely in the mix yeah I mean they'll do what they will yeah I it definitely feels like this little tidbit about Tim breaker is almost like the biggest lore Dro throughout alen wake 2 weirdly enough that that's the biggest part of it because it sets up the idea that all of the shared actors throughout the uh series it's intentional why they're the shared actors Beth and Jesse you have Nick and uh Dylan you have uh Max Payne and Alex casy you have all like the methodology with why they're the same actors is going to be explained through Tim breaker's a character is what it feels like yeah it also feels like if uh if Tim is searching for the redheaded woman and uh I feel like there's great potential for him to be uh a major character in control 2 and uh and you know to continue that reunion between those two characters uh feels very it it it feels like a great possibility I'll come back for you yep yeah yeah uh all we can do is speculate about that stuff at the moment but uh I want to wrap things up I hope this has been at least interesting I've had fun with it I feel like uh it's so hard to say anything conclusive until we get the rest of the game but I I think discussions like this are really one they're a lot of fun but I think they're also really important for uh Theory crafting and you know just kind of I I I appreciate just having different perspectives and hearing different ideas cuz I mean there's it's so dense uh I mean there are people still trying to discuss and decipher the first game that came out 13 years ago I think it's a little while before we have uh a greater consensus on on on the meanings and and happenings of alen wake to but uh every little bit that gets us closer to that goal I think is a good thing uh anything else anybody wants to share before we head out of here no I I think yeah you're right that the final draft will clear a lot of things up do you think that could be the final draft could be a reason why they didn't do a physical addition because if they had done a physical addition they wouldn't have that final draft plan that they wanted to put in place or is it just a monetary problem I think it's the publisher decision on that personally yeah they also you know they did say that it just was there was no way to release the game without downloads on their end logistically for them um yeah it's hard to say I I also think you know just looking at the numbers there was reports from 2010 2011 uh showing that digital sales of the first game were heavily eclipsing physical and it's just like remedy is a small company um epic it was taking a risk give like putting the budget behind this game and everything especially after I think it only very recently alen wake remastered started to turn a profit that took a couple years um I I could see them being extra conservative but I I wouldn't rule out the possibility of uh once everything is in place a very limited run run physical physical run but uh I I it was uh in some sales quarters over 90% of control sales were digital so it I do wonder you know how how much demand is there and is it enough to satisfy uh the the cost of production uh especially for not to get too off topic but they they they do so much with so little like uh they're very uh very conservative like even the fact that you revisit at every location in the game several times over it's painstakingly detailed yeah it and it was it was just like there's games where you you loop back around loop back around loop back around to the same environments and it feels kind of cheap um and they've been doing that with all of their games reusing assets reusing maps and it and it always feels vital it never feels tired or anything and uh the fact they're able to do that and and create these like their longest game yet but it has probably the most reused assets of any of their games in terms of you know replaying the same levels over and over with just minor changes it's pretty incredible they're able to pull that off and there's still more to come yeah and I think the Metroid Vania uh game design helped with that a lot because you're always finding something new in the Revisited areas but for phys for physical re release I think they should do it more like an a retailer type of thing you want a physical release order it and then we'll make it that way they're not printing out 100,000 copies and only sell 10 of them you know what I mean that's what I wish they' do with the thermoses he just needs that that situation my God I got I got lucky the the me the messaging was a little unclear about it but apparently the the most recent sale that just was uh just a few days ago was just the remaining stock from the first production so they haven't actually made more yet so yeah I I don't know if Thomas uh puuha is in in in total control of that but it seems like he's overseeing that project and uh he feels confident that it you know knowing what they know now what they learned from the first run they will uh I I want to say remedy it uh for their second run so fingers crossed I don't think yeah I think I I don't think they realize the kind of demand they have for their stuff I think that's what you're going to say yeah yeah for for a thermos for for a metal Fus yeah all right so thank you both for coming over here and uh talking about this stuff uh if you have more questions throw them down below I I try to answer as many as I can I'm sure other people are you know I I see other people engaging discussion even on these questions that we got uh coming in for this on the post like there was long threads of discussion just among people just trying to sort stuff out together so uh I guess keep it coming and uh you know I'll have links to everyone's channels everyone's doing cool stuff in this realm so thank you and uh we'll see you next time thank you so much for having me on thanks guys bye

Channel: Hidden Machine

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Id: vs0MZeoSSkQ

Length: 70min 0sec (4200 seconds)

Published: Sun Nov 12 2023