Creative Director Sam Lake Talks Alan Wake 2 and Live Action in Games | AIAS Game Maker's Notebook

hey everybody I'm Ted price from Insomniac games on today's episode of the game makers notebook I chatted with Sam Lake a creative director at remedy games we talked a lot about remedy's brand new game Allen wake 2 a sequel that's been hotly anticipated by fans of the survival horror series but we also touched on many of remedy's other groundbreaking games like the max pain series Quantum break and of course control not only did we talk about how remedy Builds on their core mechanics from franchise to franchise we spent a significant amount of time talking about writing for games with a brief detour into the very unique world of Scandinavian horror please join [Music] us in a horror story they're only victims and monsters and the trick is not to end up this either but trapped by the genre we're all ripped to pieces along the way no welcome we have a great show for you here tonight alen Wick one of my all-time favorite writers and Vicks on the show he's here to talk about his latest book initiation tells a story of a fictional writer named Alan Wake who is trapped in a nightmare desperately trying to find the manuscript of a novel he has forgotten he is written did you write these Pages Mr wake I'm trying to remember it you're the killer the C bleeding no you've got the wrong man it's my fault it got out wake has a double where is he [Music] now I don't want be in the story just F me out of the story [Music] Sam welcome to the show thank you happy to be here well and here is Iceland right we're here at dice Europe and you just got off stage uh giving a big speech here yeah talk talking about the long and winding 13 Years Journey uh on on creating the sequel of for Island way we're going to talk about that quite a bit but I want to go back a little further to just you and how did you get started in the industry by accident really yep uh so I I was into computer games um growing up I I had a Commodore 64 which was my first gaming device and I loved games I loved role playing games especially Ultima series and and and from that really I I discovered the tabletop role playing games and and and growing up in Finland uh more and more things that interested it me started to be in the English language uh so was learning the language uh at the same time all the Dungeons and Dragons and advanced Dungeons and Dragons manuals were in English more and more superhero comic books I was reading were in English uh a relatively small amount of fantasy literature that I was really into after finding a lot of the Rings had been translated to finish back then and and then I stumbled into the biggest books store in in Helsinki and discovered that there were what seemed to me like endless shelves of of um English paperbacks of of fantasy books so I started reading uh like early High School I started reading books in English a lot of struggle but but kind of slowly learning more and more of that and and and with the role playing games we were playing I I I was the game master and and I started writing more and more because I like like from early on uh I I really had wanted to write but but then I kind of sh shifted to writing it in English uh and and uh out of that I went to the helsink university to study the language and literature both and and that's where I was when remedy was founded uh by one of like like one of the founders was my childhood friend petto and and uh uh we were friends because of the role playing games okay and he knew that I wrote and and had been writing like really kind of like around the fantasy worlds of of what we were having in our game games and and and writing that and looking back I was probably the only person within you know close by to Petri uh whom he knew was writing in English and being serious about writing in English so so when when remedy was making its first game death rally uh he came to me that we need some texts for the game like you know three rows of text in a shop and and these kinds of things would you come and write these that's that's like because of that question I'm here now oh that's wonderful uh and and I went in I I wrote the text I found couple of ways of of of bringing additional story Into the game that has nothing to do with story but afterwards then and and this back then early days of Remedy it was really kind of this Garage Band set up in the in the in the founders parents house basement and and kids coming and going and and lot of different ideas for different games and and I stayed on board like no salary or anything it was a hobby really in in in some ways and and and and this idea of like we can do more with story and and and then max pay as a concept was starting out and and and I was bringing to the table saying that nobody has really done a proper deeper story in an action game MH but we can certainly do that it can be done and and and then started working on on the story and the character and the world of Max ban and the idea that because I was reading a lot of comics uh and and cinematics back then were really awfully crude uh that that we could have a graphic novel inside the game and that could be how we tell the story and and here I am 28 years later well there's a lot that happened between then and now right I me you stopped at max pain and we'll we'll talk maybe a little bit more about the other games but I want to go back to that that those Garage Days days in the in the basement uh what what was the game industry like then was it in Finland was it was it literally just a whole bunch of garage developers or had it matured to the point where going into the games industry wasn't insane it was kind of insane okay I I mean I I don't think that I I would lie in saying that all the founders of of Remedy G from the demo scene so so having competitions and creating demos that that bring together some graphics and code and music and and with really strict limits on how much memory can they use and and and that scene was quite strong like in the '90s in Finland and and and all the founders of the company had talked about it from the idea that hey maybe we could do a computer game uh and and and that's why how remedy was born uh out of that I I was the for for years and years I was the only humanist student kind of coming in from languages and literature and everybody else was kind of like a very different background um into this it was kind of a loose band of people mostly from the demo scene and and and and death rally was 10 plus people creating it but there were already kind of these other game demos being built uh and and you know your your classic thing of mattresses on under table of people like taking a nap during night for when when coding and getting up and continuing and and slowly what was building to be remedy started to invade more rooms in that basement and then up the stairs into the kind of office room and and and kind of like I I I remember us invading that house uh bit by bit um but yeah like the remedy is the second video game company in Finland as as far as I know hous Mark was founded kind of two months before okay very much from with with this kind of a same uh and and and yeah it was a big deal for death rally to get a deal with Apachi so 3D Realms guys MH um and afterwards there were even more people excited and and creating their own ideas around games and I remember uh Scott Miller from 3D Realms flying over the Finland and and coming to remedy and going through all of these demos and and and and what would end up being max pay was one of them back then and he went through and and he kind of singled that out and said that well we would be interested in partnering with you guys on this uh that that we can fund you on the development until we find a proper publisher uh as long as we make a 50/50 of ownership on this so so that's then suddenly like max pay kind of became the the next thing and there there were smaller things still being made and and tried out but but that then kind of like then more people got sucked into that and more people like you know the first max Bain was 20 plus people so back then teams were obviously much much smaller well you made a big impact with Max Bain I remember vividly when bullet time was first revealed and I remember a lot of us at Insomniac were looking at it going wow that is that's Innovative big time yeah and that that to me was pety and and and we were kind of like uh a Duo I I was looking at the character and the tone of the story and storytelling uh what the locations would be he was looking at the cinematography he was looking at the style of it and he was looking at the game play yeah and and and uh Petri was and is a big fan of Hong Kong action theater yeah so John Woo uh films and and I remember that from very early on he had this idea of bullet time one way or the other it took us a long long time to figure out that mechanic as a resource that you can kind of tap into and use there were all kinds of rise of certain areas in the world are in bullet time when you step in and it goes to Bullet time and like like lot of iteration in in looking for what the exact mechanic is but but the idea really really came from him and and I just felt that it it it kind of suited I I feel that there is a clear connection with the the kind of like melodramatic uh Hong Kong action films and film Noir to begin with there are lot of tonal similarities and and and influences there so and and I love film Noir I love Humphrey Bogart films and and and all of that and hardboard literature and I I really really wanted to bring in a character with that kind of like classic hardboiled detective type of a w Vibe u in into it so it was a good match I I I always felt well I think tonally tonally and story-wise it also stood out quite a bit I mean Max main is a very memorable character and I love that I didn't I knew you're a fan of of various genres but it's great to hear that you're also a big fan of Noir so yeah that all now connects a little bit better yeah well speaking of being fans of other genres uh you are on the verge of launching Max Payne 2 sorry not Max pain 2 Alan Wake 2 yeah max pay land right now but and and that's super exciting and I know you've been uh showing off new the footage from it and your latest trailer and by the time this is released the game will be out so in advance congratulations thank you thank you 13year Journey that's amazing I would love to already be in that side we we we are in the in the in the final struggle and Chaos as it always is like bux to fix still and and and days are days are getting getting to be short and and uh the the game is right now in C and and we have not gotten anything back yet like waiting anxiously on on what do we get back I know that feeling yeah like like it it somehow always ends up being uh that way even though always kind of I idealistically think that well there there could be a better way of of like more more kind of manageable way of getting there it's but it's close and and and yeah it's been it's been a very very long journey and I feel also a personal Journey like Alan the original Alan Wake was a very special project to me always and I we did want to create the sequel I I wanted to create the sequel and it ended up being more than 10 years before being able to kind of really really get the get the sequel uh started and and it wasn't for the lack of trying in between every game project that we did that there was a new concept of Alan Wake 2 and and we we went around all the Publishers and and tried to get it uh made but but just like well you know it's it it's it's not easy and and and the the timing is down to luck as well in some aspects when when is the time right and and when do you find the right partner who is open to this and and looking for something like this and and now we are making it and and almost almost there and funny how life goes like when when I when I look back at all of those earlier Concepts I'm I'm just really really happy that none of those Alan Wake TOS got got made and this got made because there are a lot of learnings Through The Years through our games that that that are an important part of this experience and and could not have imagined or created this game uh without uh everything that came in between well so since you mentioned that I got to ask what are a couple of the learnings that stand out to you in this journey that have helped shape what Ellen alen W 2 is yeah like like there there are multiple uh we we used to do very linear experienes uh Quantum break was a very kind of a tight tube uh um and and in with control we broke away from that and created a hubik structure for for the world uh and and a lot of learnings from that and because of that that's how Alan Wake 2 is structured we have multiple hubs that you travel between and then in a hub area you are free to come and go as you choose obviously the the campaign story takes you through through certain parts but you get to explore a lot more and we open up the world more as you progress so that that really is all of those learnings that came from control how much of that though has also been influenced by what's going on in the industry with G Evolution course yeah and and and that was the reason that we definitely wanted to go there with control okay that that this is this is clearly where you know we are we are moving and and this is clearly Where We Are getting experiences where the player has more freedom and and through the freedom paradoxically in a video game framework more agency and more investment sure uh so so that that that was uh a big part of figuring out control and and and still still now writing writing on that other things I you know I love uh liveaction content in our experiences as as it's it makes your game stand out I mean I I really appreciate it every time I see well do doing a detour before going to that but but that to me is also something that that I feel from creative standpoint to be really really important is that is that how to stand out and and we we are still coming to this from Indie perspective and and if you know you guys the beautiful games that you make and and and the massive massive big games uh we simply don't have those re resources sure and and and yet in a way kind of from the player perspective we are kind of in the same league of triaa games you are Tria games I that's where I think it's but but but but it's it it it goes into the territory for me mentally when I'm thinking about creative ideas is that we just have to be really Bold And original and unique and try to find like even if it means that we need to do some crazy things that that maybe a bigger company wouldn't do because like they can you guys can can keep on polishing and and and and having so much kind of of that content that it feels like how to stand out m is to be original and and and to me as a creative and and maybe the business side doesn't quite agree with this always but but I feel that it's better to evoke a strong emotion one way or the other than than than try to be just perfectly Polished and and and because we can't quite do that so so from that perspective to me is like we'll just do crazy things um and and and things that excite us and we are passionate about there will be a portion of the audience who will love it because they have never experienced anything like that there will be another portion of audience who will absolutely hate it but that's kind of fine yeah because there is plenty of Gamers out there well I I got to imagine you'd rather have a game that as you said evokes a strong emotion or is polarizing or in particular has a point of view right and you're creatively you have a point of view in inter integrating live action with CG frankly I think is awesome and I also see it coming full circle cuz you probably remember back when we were all getting started yeah that was the the thing nobody nobody could afford CG so everybody was doing live action and it created this really cool approach and heck it was a lot easier to do it so I think in some ways you're setting a new standard because it's smart like nobody likes to spend million I don't think anybody likes to spend millions and millions on CG necessarily if you can have something that fits that is live action with your real actors and and and and that has been the struggle in figuring that out and it's been it's been the go through the years that that there were a lot of hard Lessons Learned with Quantum break and obviously as a starting point uh a liveaction production model and video game production model are very different and and not very compatible like like video game tend to be a lot of iteration and changing things I forget about that you were totally right and and and live action tends to be we have a plan we have a script we do a shoot plan we shoot it then we edit it then it's done yeah and and and and we were not fully in control especially on the liveaction side when creating Quantum break uh and and that caused friction and and and but we learned T and and so in control we scaled that way back but wanted to keep it and and and started to uh experiment on stylization so in control we did the hotline Visions with with the previous director we shot them in live action with a certain kind of lighting then we layered that into the game world as as these kind of Silhouettes in a in a kind of almost like a vision yeah um and and and that felt very promising and then we did like your more traditional in in World in on on screen you know the Dr darling educational videos inside the world and and and all of that but that to me just gave the confidence of because it was really really well received like like Dr darling's character as an example is only present in these videos you never meet him he's a big mystery of having gone missing and you kind of like discover things about that but you never meet him in the game uh and yet like Matthew pora was nominated as the best supporting role in the in the game awards out of this that was done in four days of shooting like in in the set for for you know very late in the production just flying him in and and and and and shooting and that gave me the confidence that there there really is something here that if we if we find the right stylizations and elements we can do a lot more and and now in Alan Wake 2 we have more or less a full feature films worth of live action content inside there like like we have your comical quirky uh inworld commercials done for the small town TV of of the locals and and those characters the ccala brothers are characters in the game but they are also in these commercials and they have made them made them themselves so so they are clunky and and and and stupid in many ways but that's the point we have plenty of these visions that that like learnings on lighting and stylization from control we've gone way F The Saga Anderson our FBI agent and profiler uh sees these Visions when she's profiling suspects and V victims who appear kind of like this Vision around her and and Alan Wake is seeing these visions of inspiration in the dark place that play out as kind of like in in the world as liveaction content but then because the dark place is the dream reality and and and wanting to keep the player like off balance and and and kind of like finding their way through we have quite a bit of different liveaction sequences in there where you transition through an inw World screen as an example he comes to in The Green Room of night talk show can't quite remember how he got there there is an on air um sign and there is a screen below that shows the talk show that is ongoing and the host is introducing his NE next guest Alan Wake and and and you are locked in that room and you go like what but there is an interact on the screen and when you click on the screen we do this weird Vortex transition and you are sucked into that screen and then suddenly we are in live action full screen Alan Wake is there he is almost like he has just woken up and how did I got here confused but then we we build the full late night talk show film set like like Studio set and and we shot many episodes of this talk show uh Alan Wake always finding himself there and and and we built his writers room we we have a hotel in the in the dark place that is taking the shape of a New York kind of inspired by Chelsea Hotel at its kind of like you know Golden Age and and we build this kind of a whole Suite uh in the hotel where and and always the transition is kind of like you slip into these scenes and we have a similar dream dream transition out of them and and i' I've been feeling really excited about this it feels to me like now we are really kind of like seamlessly maybe a wrong word but kind of seamlessly and with this purpose of stylization finding how we can have on the critical path full scenes of of liveaction um content in there plus for the first time ever we we had a full films film crew like really experienced people in all the roles and and and spending time on the set like every day when we were shooting I I kept on being just kind of amazed how well-oiled machine uh an experienced film crew e you know and and and and just going like every day we were ahead of the schedule like like and and I was like we should get some of this to the our our production which of course is vastly more complex but but but still yeah oh this was that happening in LA or was that happening no it it was in in Helsinki oh really okay so the sets that you built were they were they at a Sound Stage or were they actually in your okay yeah sound like we we rented uh a studio uh fully on this production and there were multiple that there was the hotel there was the talk show there was the rider room uh some other sets like a forest we we we built uh because there is also this kind of a full very stylized art housee horror short film lurking inside the dark place once the players get to it uh so yeah it's a good tease for for future players yes oh that's that's uh I want to talk a little bit about tone but before I do having been fully immersed in the live action side and as you alluded to understanding and and also being immersed in the development side uh are there lessons that we in development can take from another industry that has been around for even longer than we have uh so that we can become more efficient or apply some of the learnings to this very complex process that we have for games it is very complex and and and I I am really hoping uh at at at remedy that we can find a way to take learnings from that because it it it really was in some aspects like night and day uh I mean obviously what we were in was not huge or or complicated uh but but nonetheless the clarity of the roles the the the clarity of how communication always flows on the set like like how how everything is kind of like really really clearly like like starting from the simplest thing of like and silence and go and cut like and everybody knows that this is happening of course we don't have that on the game side in a in a similar role but but that that's the that's the clarity and and and and how kind of strictly it is run and everybody knows that okay now I'm silent and I'm just focusing on watching this one thing that is my responsibility and and and and only kind of like you know uh letting everybody know if something is wrong if if something goes wrong here then we stop and and and then we then we fix it it it it it does start from like what I really really wanted to achieve with with Alan Wake 2 that definitely didn't happen with control was that I really wanted to have the critical screenplay before we kind of roll into production yeah uh well how difficult is that I just wanted because as a writer right you and working with designers you're the creative director as well yeah you know yeah I mean like and wearing in in this game this production more than ever before wearing multiple hats uh because I wanted to I and and and this has been such a long time coming and feeling so personally in invested this into this I I just felt that no I I I want to do all of this now so so uh I'm I have co-directed this with Kyle Rowley who is our game director uh I wrote the story with with with Tyler Burton Smith who was working with us on Quantum break and now is working on on TV and film mostly and and then wrote the screenplay with with Clay Murphy who is at remed writer so and and then I acted one of the side roles that was great and and and not your first time acting no well a lot of first times there as well we can talk about but but but also like uh was really involved in in the music in the making of Music more than ever before be because it's been slowly building up and I really really wanted to do more uh with that we can we can certainly talk about that as well uh that that feels to me me like a big victory that we have achieved uh in this game um but but all of this happening in a production model that does isn't really built around one person because when it goes It goes and there are so many tracks going and and and kind of like I feel that that we we tend to kind of like optimistically leap into the next phase of the proo Pro even though maybe we should spend more time in the previous phase meaning like pre-pro to Pro production as an example it it tends to slip in and suddenly there is a 100 people or more than 100 people just working on it but all the plans are not clear or the screenplay is not quite there and and and and obviously there is the idea of video games being so iterative that that uh we are discovering things also yeah so it's hard to lock a screenplay when you don't quite know all the gameplay mechanics or or everything around it but I what I what I still really feel which we didn't achieve and and then it ended up like endlessly long hours of of directing and writing and and and kind of trying to balance that while production is happening um but but I do feel that we can achieve a version where we just do the critical path of the story in a way and get the screenplay really polished and and and out of that some uh budgetary uh uh kind of like visibility and and and do that iteration before we move to production like uh KN knocking on wood and hoping for the next project to finally achieve this well let's let's talk about that just briefly so if any of us are to achieve that to lock this story before we go into production what's one thing you think has to happen well like I I I would say and and and the reason why Alan Wake 2 is not a perfect sample for that but I would say that working on a sequel is would be a great way to start trying that uh especially if it really is a sequel where we are building on the foundation of the previous game and and and we have an understanding of the scope and mechanics we we have an understanding of just looking at the figures of the previous project that this is the amount of cinematics that we can actually do with this time frame and and and and and and all and having enough of that understanding that that kind of actually worked way back when with max pain 2 because like like we were it was a direct SQL and and a lot of the elements that we had already built you know bullet time and and how the game flows and graphic novel and all uh all of that was already locked in a way so so I feel that it's easier for a SQL uh to have that understanding then just go and write it and and and and have it and and then bring in all the representatives of different departments have them go through it uh give their feedback iterate still not go iterate get it done and now go uh because what what ends up happening if it's not there and what ended up happening with our production now is that it kind of fragments everything it means that you don't have the full thing you you you have the pressure to start shooting material uh cinematics then you do some but you you can't kind of build a really kind of like a primary shoot of these months and we are just shooting a lot of material it becomes a week here and then we'll wait and a week here and and and kind of like uh and especially if if that as you know those estimates on schedules are are not really accurate it also makes it difficult with made it difficult for us now now with coid because arranging suits was was was really hard to begin with let alone when schedules sometimes slipped and and you know the plan shoot didn't happen we need to reschedule everything and and sort things out it just leads into into kind of like lot of moving Parts unnecessary moving parts and and and Noise with that and and and sometimes wasted work as as well so so my dream being that that would get that screenplay like in one of these projects really really kind of like as far as possible and and and and and going forward uh then from that hopefully a primary shoot of like just shooting a ton of material at the right time and and which are all things that that are given in liveaction Productions you you you want won't really go forward with a project before the screenplay is there there are exceptions of course but horror stories but but usually screenplay planning story boards everything then you know everything build and then you shoot for multiple months or tens of days and and and then for sure pickups later right but but but that's still more than the whole thing being fragmented through a couple of years of of shooting I appreciate you talking in depth about that because I think it's something that any of us who work in story different games struggle with yeah it is and it's a tension constantly between okay story's locked well maybe it's not because we need to change some of the gameplay and it's a house of cards so so I I am going to get to tone because I really do want to talk about that but I do want to talk a little bit about modifying story in the middle of production and for you at remedy how do you manage that if you do need to make a change that is integrated with design or maybe adjust scope if things are spiraling out of control uh uh adjusting scope is the most common thing I would say most unwelcome yes of course and and and um it it does tend to happen like like it does like you know we we need to cut a character we need to cut a full location we we we we need to cut a mission and and being ambitious with the story does usually mean that that you you you want to be ambitious which means you are building a lot of connections through the story yeah because that's what makes the story better right you know foreshadowing things or somebody says you know slip something in and and that whole line gets a whole new meaning later on in a very fundamental way you know telling a story in in a good way and and then suddenly you are faced with a challenge of this whole section needs to go out and and and what I usually just kind of caution everybody because we've been in the Trap of quantum prank Quantum prank especially ended up going into this Loop of yeah we we are overs scoped uh we need to cut content it's a time travel story hely complicated to begin with sure and and we need to cut content okay we can cut content but patching it all back up you know is serious story workor and it will take time like like very easily like my feeling is if you cut a bigger chunk and you are very focused on storytelling easily it will be two months before we are back where we began and and it easily is two months of lost time then and and and very easily you fall into a trap where we are behind we are over scoped we need to cut the content okay we can cut the content but then we need to work to kind of like make make sure that there are no plot holes and everything works just being being ambitious with the story you spend that two months working on it you fix it there are at least some people in critical departments waiting on some level waiting and then you are back on and oh no we have lost two months we we are just as much behind and over scope now we need to cut content and and and and this going in some of these long projects going like four rounds of this it it it can be really really brutal yeah on on on the story team to to be to be working on this uh luckily we I mean there there were some uh scope down like couple of missions that that we had to cut from early designs in Alan Wake 2 uh and and and also what easily happens is that if you have a complicated story with multiple plot threats going on yes you can cut the location and and and you can cut the gameplay Mission but you can't cut all of that story so what you end up doing is that you need to kind of find suitable places in the remaining story to kind of cram that in and and and you didn't really cut let's talk about I mean for viewers who may not be in development when you say cram it in we're talking about maybe additional cut scenes that somehow have to be fit into another mission or level which doesn't where it doesn't kind of or or like obviously we luckily we have different levels of Storytelling methods okay and and and and this is one example why I absolutely love voice of narration in a video game and and obviously it's your old it's frowned upon in in in kind of in films or or TV you know the the usual thing is show don't tell and obviously like the ambitious way in video games is like don't tell don't show you know play yeah exactly uh but but from Max Spain on I I fully believed that like like early on I it always annoyed me endlessly when when when you had your video game character suddenly start talking loud like like like slightly a crazy person going like H I don't have a key for this door and and and that annoyed me and I I I was really really wanting to avoid that and in Max ban then doing a hardboiled character and hardboiled setting the obvious thing to go to and there were film examples of of you know this kind of a hardboiled monologue and and and film Noir device often is that that you kind of have some sort of a framing story that that that you know somebody is giving a confession and and they we we go back and we see that happen and there is a narration of the you know person who is kind of being recorded uh so so and many of the hardboard novels are in first person person with this kind of metaphor Laden dialogue so so that to me felt like this is a perfect tool to achieve the kind of like player guidance where we need it but at the same time get you inside the the head of the main character and and bring in a sto strong feeling into the experience so in Alan Wake then I kind of wanted to reinvent that and a a manuscript of a novel is coming true and Alan Wake is the writer of that novel and his narration from the beginning takes you and you start finding this pages and and he is the narrator or reader of those pages and then you kind of realize or maybe don't realize that the whole game you played was actually that manuscript of the novel uh experienced and and him as the Storyteller like explaining what is written on the page uh and that felt like well this is the same thing but a completely different thing in quat prak we kind of struggled a bit but it it's that interview he is being debriefed Jack uh on on what went on and and his testimony is being recorded so we have both the interviewer and and and him kind of answering on the level of voice of a narration and and in control Jesse feden has this mysterious alien guardian angel in her head or in Her Imagination and and she is just used to talking to Polaris uh in her head in her thoughts so that's the narration there and now we are obviously coming back to Alan Wake so we have him as the Storyteller but we have another character as well Saga Anderson who has who is using mind Palace technique you know to analyze things so we are hearing her thoughts as she is you know shifting through the clues and wondering about things which kind of feels part of the investigator uh side of it this was a long detour in coming back to this to me is the cheapest method yeah of Storytelling in a video game to explain things give color to things show what the character is thinking but also guiding the player so and and it's vital to me that we have this kind of a cheap version storytelling when all the more expensive versions can't be applied because we are too late or we are over scope or we need to take some story elements that we cut out but we still need to inform the player out of this so we have these different layers we have the narration uh then we have obviously outloud dialogue with NPCs starting to be with the today's Fidelity having two an NPC and the player character starts to be pretty expensive M making it believable yeah maybe not a polished huge cinematic cutscene but kind of starting to kind of like slip into that uh then the liveaction content like in in various ways you know radios and and well okay the narration and maybe having a radio in your ear is the other the cheapest method so so like when when content is cut needing to find ways and usually it's now can't really add to the cinematics probably we are out of scope with the cinematics as well so so uh it can be you know then radio then it can be vo narration then it can be just documents found in the world that that's relatively cheap as well finding a letter and reading it uh so so different they all have their own price tag and and that is something that you need to be you need to be aware of the pacing so that you have all kinds of different elements nicely interwoven into the experience to keep it interesting and and and and not too syy but but at the same time really really need to be mindful of what things cost well thank you for that explanation well I also like that you're using this uh narrator Convention as part of your brand right I mean it appears in your games consistently and it is something that maybe very subtly sets you apart from from other games because you don't hear I I don't hear that a lot in games yeah no and and it is a set like like it's it's kind of like going against the best practices in in some way but exactly but when done well right it really set you apart and and that's one of the many things I think that sets your games apart and I when I look at the remedy games and everything that yall have done since Max Payne you there's a very specific feel to the games and usually that comes through in tone and in particular especially with Alan Wake 2 and everything I've seen about it so far you've gone fairly dark sometimes yeah and I read an interview where a couple movies were mentioned hereditary and momar yeah uh which are dark movies and I saw momar for the first time last year and it left me Disturbed and I mean it's a great movie yeah everybody should go watch it who lik horror movies but because of its sort of Scandinavian trappings it made me start to think about Finland dark stories and games and is there something about Finland and and mythology and dark mythology that has influenced you in the team to to take this more consistently darker tone with your games especially recently I know it it is a great question uh and and and I tonal elements to me are really really important to tonal elements and stylizations and atmosphere building and and and sometimes I I I do feel that we also go against the crane there in the sense that uh mixing them up quite crazily like the humor your exactly yes and and and and and that is part of it I I don't know it's it's an interesting question like like I always felt that that growing up in Finland and and and and still being from very young age a big big fan of American popular culture because that was what we were getting in television and comic books and all and and and that being a very kind of open uh source of ins inspiration for our game stories as well but somehow it always felt to me that that there is there is uniqueness and there is an interesting uh thing in the sense that we are still quite far outside kind of getting this pop culture uh using it as an inspiration and doing our thing and and and even if you know go going back to max pay and starting from there how obvious nods there are to kind of mobster films and film Noir and and all of that I I still believe that because it's filtered through my outside view of these things it kind of like slightly maybe kind of it's it's slightly out of joint in in hopefully an interesting way right uh that that gives it its own vibe that that's one side of it I I I have from very young age been gravitating towards scary things as exciting things okay uh like like like starting as a very young boy my my father did read me as bedtime stories all the Tarson books and and then looking back I felt that I was maybe slightly too young for that because it was scary I was totally fascinated about it I can still in my mind have a vivid image of of dark jungle and great apes kind of shadowy hulking figures in there uh and and and this kind of like as as an early example but it has kind of like kept on going uh with me that I always feel that when things are slightly too scary or slightly too difficult where I'm going like I'm I'm not quite understanding this that this is what led me to postmodern writing and and how I was really fascinated with about it is like I'm not getting all of these references quite or what's really being said here and that is exciting to me that interests me a lot and and and and but but horror being one consistent thing and and now that you say a say it like I do think that in the kind of like you know the mythology of of Finland or Nordic countries all in all like going to Vikings and all yeah there there is scary stuff in there that that H has been like fascinating to me all through these years like like I discovered the Viking uh MOS uh through Lord of the Rings I was a huge fan I was reading the background how how Tolen had drawn from uh nudc lore and then I went on to read the Eda poems like like the actual Viking you know the the and and and was fascinated and and like like in school for a few years just kept on doing presentations on the Viking gods and and and and that that has been this one thing that that I I've like even all gods of ascard obviously being a big thing in in Alan Wake the crazy Nordic heavy metal band like drawing from uh Nordic lore but but more and more growing older the phis mythology like you know my own culture has has kind of like crept in in more clear obvious way in Alan Wake to way more than ever before uh with with all kinds of ideas related to the supernatural related to you know just kind of the history of the area like asoria as an example in the Pacific Northwest had a big Finnish immigrant Community uh with with logging industry and fishing industry and and we kind of took that idea and created the neighboring town to prf Falls called watery founded by finish immigrants so we have a lot of Finnish names and Finnish folklore kind of like you know underneath there and and some of the horror elements are drawn from Finnish mythology may maybe it's growing older maybe it's kind of like starting to be more aware of of your heritage and background and and feeling nostalgic and and also so like true that I I feel a in control the janitor character the crazy Finn uh really was this kind of a thing for me I I wanted to put him in and and created him and and and then Marty swasalo wonderful wonderful Finnish actor who portrayed him uh won the baa for the supporting role and and and you know lot of fans love a and just kind of realized ing that we have this exotic thing that that you know is very kind of original uh for majority of the people on this globe uh and and and why not just use it also as a as a as a strength and draw from it uh more yeah like I also I I I think that just the kind of nature like I the schizophrenic nature of of you know being uh up there in the North like like the idea that summer the sun hardly sets at all you know Midsummer being a prime example of that there is something crazy about that setup uh and and and then the contrast of winter sun hardly Rises at all and it's it's Barren and it's cold and and that in itself is scary kind of on very kind of primitive uh level so yeah well that's I love that thank you for drawing those uh those comparisons it makes a lot more sense now I'm sure for light light and darkness in Alan Wake being this kind of whole Duality between these things that and also that it's not that light is good and dark is bad they both have their their extremes right and you're sharing that from a unique perspective for those of us who live in places where it isn't dark all winter or sunny all summer it does feel a little bit crazy a little bit like how it can Inspire schizophrenia and I can see that in the games you do and looking forward to seeing that in Allen wake to yep so uh just I want to talk just a little bit about writing and design yeah and getting back to to what you do and as a creative director and as the writer what are a just a couple things that you do to ensure that the writing reflects the design and the design reflects the writing yeah I I we my experience and and of course my experience is limited from the perspective that I've always been at remedy I haven't really intimately seen the processes in other um Dev Studios but but my understanding is that we do lean on the story quite heavily early on and maybe some other Studios don't do that in a similar way that being said it goes hand inand we do start prototyping the Gameplay at the same time and and they inform each other a lot and I I I always feel that it's really react really important to be reactive on the writing side and and and really it is we are in it together and and like finding ways to kind of lift and support the other areas with what you do because ultimately that makes the game better at the end so so trying to find these Solutions of course it's the thing that that you know your solution my solution tends to lean on the story somebody else's Solution on the area that they work on they try to kind of like fix it with with their expertise but to me like a lot of iteration goes into this stories it's it's it's important to try to keep in mind what are the really important bits What what is the heart and soul of it so that that's not lost because sometimes if if early on we don't know what we are making and start making it it might radically shift to new things and then you can kind of you know go with it and and end up losing like wait a minute this was the important thing but now it's completely gone yeah you know especially in earlier years uh but to me also like what I always say to my writing team is that that how we should look at it is that if something changes outside of our work that requires us to change things that that we should always look at it as an opportunity always look at it as it's not perfect what we have now we are required to change something let's see it as an opportunity to make what we have better and and and like I feel at least mentally to me that motivates that change a lot more and also actually in many cases leads to ultimately something better and and and and trying to find ways to support the rest of the game so that it it really is needed together it's challenging often like in Alan W 2 we have more mechanics related two story like the investigation and and Saga Anderson's caseboard and profiling and Alan wake's plot board because you as the player this time around get to shape the story he is actually building and and because the dark place is this kind of a dream reality when you do the world changes because now the narrative goes differently so so trying to which which has been really really challenging say that sounds brutally hard because now you have really really capable narrative designers thinking about this mechanics and you have the writers writing team figuring out the story and you are more intimately connected so if something is changed or we need this so that this mechanic can actually work okay that's actually really really hard on the story side because that kind of breaks and and then iteration and finding Solutions lot of hard work well I like how you how you're suggesting that when another team changes something your team whatever team you're talking to should look at it as an opportunity yes versus saying oh I can't believe they changed that that's going to screw us over right which is generally a human response it is and and it always happens but I I I feel that kind of being but it it inevitably happens with video games especially are changing all the time yeah there is no way out of it so so trying to see the positive of this change and using it to kind of like make your part of it more integrated and better uh it's really the only say that's right it keeps it all keeps people friends right we all we all end up being able to work together better if we can most of the time adopt that approach I I think it's a great advice I I I also very very strongly feel that because this is tied to limitations and and there can be so many reasons why something that you love in the story doesn't end up working we can't do it technically our tools don't support this like you know so many reasons that that might pop up surprisingly because things evolve and tools evolve and you know everything keeps on evolving limitations are wonderful like like even if they do frustrate you when you when when they are presented to you this doesn't work you know you can't do this but ultimately I I I feel that almost always uh when faced with that and getting over the disappointment uh it leads to something very creative because then you are forced to solve a problem with limited tools and and and and if anything forces you to be creative it's it's that kind of a setup because if you have no limitations people tend to be lazy like like you everything works and you don't even need to really go in and think it really carefully true you just put it in there and and and first idea you know is okay and then you move on but when forc to come back and change something usually you need to think hard and and and often what comes up out of it is something great and original because without this problem you would never have thought about it and and come up with this solution I agree it's that that pressure turning cold in into d right so that's what happening yeah and it's I again for anybody who doesn't work in the industry that's what we are all working under constraints constantly no matter how big or small we are yes and and it's when for sure I see that every day when we were faced with that like you said that willingness to uh to just instead of pushing back and going except that there are some constraints and and then after you've gotten over that uh sort of grieving phase and you get into acceptance and then you move forward yes and then and then it's great it can be great right doesn't always always can can be great and can be can be definitely in the best positive way something you would never have thought of yeah without this obstacle I you know it's funny I we at Insomniac we talk a lot about probably one of the biggest constraints we ever faced and that was when we had to go remote when the pandemic hit and I would tell say a week before the pandemic before we were we actually had to move out we were looking at each other and going we'd never go remote we' never they can't do this it's impossible right no choice and then ultimately we changed so many of our processes things got a lot smoother in many areas because we were forced to we were we actually in that situation where there was no that you just had to do it like so you're saying I mean it sharpens everybody when you are yes like within you have to work within limitations yeah yeah well anyway sorry not to go off on that changent but I wanted I want to just ask you just a couple more questions and actually one in particular with you having such a long career as a writer and a creative director what is your advice to those who might be considering a writing career in the industry would you say stay away from it don't ever try it or you've been through it so yeah and I let me give you some context and when I talk to people who are interested in getting into the industry usually they're students I've heard more and more regularly that people want to get and and write for games and I hadn't I hadn't heard that very often five years ago or or 10 years maybe a decade ago but now it just seems to be more and more fre what's your advice yeah I I i' I've seen that same thing and it makes me really really happy I I I like like nothing makes me more grateful and and and flattered when when some of the fans of our games you know these things that I've gotten is is somebody goes like uh I never used to read anything uh then I played your game and it felt you know so clearly written that now I'm reading books really or or things like because of your games I'm I'm now starting out as a writer like I either either books or in the industry like you know what what more more what kind of a thank you would be like more fulfilling out of all of that work than than a comment like that that's great yeah so so so for sure being able to inspire people like that to me is like I'll I'll get to the point in a second uh like to me it always is like what more can a creative hope for than than like being inspired ired by wonderful wonderful works of art of of all kinds using that inspiration in your own creation and then maybe that serves as inspiration for somebody else to create something new uh that that always is like like what what more can you hope sure you know creating um writing I I feel that I was also lucky just to say it kind of out loud that that when like you know coming in when I came in and and and being given this kind of almost like a free reign of I want to tell a story and everybody at remedy back then going like oh sure and and and I was left to my kind of like devices and and being able to create it and and like like uh editors or anything like that that came way later then and and and obviously what what what you do here is that these days it might be harder to break you know into the industry I I still think that Indie Games smaller games is a wonderful wonderful way and and and mods still as well like like there there are ways where you can have a couple of friends and and who who have a similar ambition and you can on your own create a game or a mod for a game and and and have content there are quite a few people at remedy who have broken into the industry that way like created something that has kind of like that's interesting that's cool and and and actually us reaching out to the person of like would you be interested in in coming to work with us uh obviously these days you can go to school you can actually go to school which was not a thing back then well I I did end up like after the first max ban game I did go to theater Academy of Finland and and for a couple of years studied screenwriting for film and TV okay and and and to me even though we always say that well writing for games is different there there is enough overlap uh that that for sure it's beneficial to to like go to a school for screen writing and and and and learn writing there and then wanting to do uh work work on games and and writing that that definitely is one Avenue like like what what you need to do is you need to know games like even as a player because obviously like you know people coming in and wanting to write for games and be having experience in writing but almost like from the beginning saying that I have never played games and I'm not really into games but I want to come to work on games that there there is this weird like like blind spot of like well that that's not going to work like like somehow you need to understand the the the fundamentals but but those really to me kind of like you know if if you want to write do write and and and and and kind of like experience things where writing exists like be the game uh be the film be the book be the graphic novel that you are familiar and and keep on like seeing written stuff and analyzing it and and kind of like how are they doing it here and and and thinking about it while writing like like that it's so obvious but but it needs to be said because like you know young people often have dreams uh and and and and dreams are fun to have but you do need to work to make it happen uh and and and then for sure like like you know there being schools now going to an actual school about you know narrative design or or writing for games like happily those now exist as well that's right it's helping us as an industry significant we're getting more and more talented folks coming right out of school yeah well that's wonderful advice and I I I I look forward to many writers also or prospective writers listening and and hopefully becoming uh the next Sam lake so yes yes please replace me it's about time um I I I I I am really really happy where where storytelling in video games is and and how much it has uh evolved uh through these like almost 30 years uh so so yeah I mean games on that front are are doing great I agree I agree I love seeing people like like you and and remedy pushing story forward in games I think that ises a lot for our industry so thank you and congratulations and Advance by the time this comes out I should say congratulations on what I know will be a huge success for you guys thank you thank you it it was great talking with you same here yeah

Channel: Academy of Interactive Arts & Sciences

Views: 35,357

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Id: ZMYwI0ZFRVs

Length: 76min 34sec (4594 seconds)

Published: Mon Oct 30 2023