Alan Wake 2 SPOILER DISCUSSION (Ending, Twists, Theories) | Feat. Hidden Machine

what's up everybody Welcome to podcast now I am Alex and I'm joined by an incredibly special guest we're going to go by Matt here but I'll introduce you his hidden machine all of his info is going to be in the description for those that do not know this man is on top of it or the hidden machine I guess uh Persona the uh the Youtube channel in general you guys do an incredible incred and that's how I found you is to get ready for Alan Wake to I had to go back into the depths you know we had to uh kind of look at the lore and you're the guy who I found and your stuff is unmatched in my opinion so once uh I reached out and we got talking I was like okay this is going to work so I done this in the past we kind of just have a spoiler discussion and not necessarily a review but just anything that kind of comes out at us and I thought it'd be really good to have you here you know and go back and forth on it so Matt how you doing uh how'd you like the game what's going on uh hey thanks for having me uh thank you for shouting out the channel and stuff and the the lore videos and everything uh yeah I am very happy with the game a lot went over my head than I'm trying to kind of decipher but uh man I it it was everything I wanted that's that was that was going to be my follow-up question was it everything you wanted it to be yeah I mean I I I expected there to be some Cliffhangers and Mysteries cuz that's kind of like what the whole appeal of the first game was I think the only reason people are talking about it 13 years later is because it leaves oh yeah a lot unsaid and it it it's a conversation starter and I I expected some of that but I didn't expect things like because right before this game launched there was uh I think an Entertainment Weekly Sam Lake was interviewed and he was like oh well you know the short answer is quantum break and Max Payne are not in the remedy connected universe and that kind of you know pole quote was like really broadcasted pretty heavily across yeah a lot of different channels yeah um but then the other part of the quote was he said something along the lines of you know but we're making questions possible and I I didn't expect there to be so much blatant uh you know references and nods to Quantum break and max pain in particular uh seeing those kind of like come full circle into the RCU was really exciting for me yeah it it was uh you know I compared Sam Lake to tetsu and Amora I'm standing by that Sam Lake liked that tweet so I I really I feel like that's true this man just uh he gives and gives and gives and he doesn't give everything you know all at the same time um I thought you were gonna say when he said constantly that you don't have to have played anything else to and and and I said in a review I you know I agree to an extent but I really think you got like I've told I've sent people to you I said you know watch this guy's videos get into lore get into story because if you I don't know I feel like if you're not into this stuff number one if you're not into that kind of wacky stuff in general this game is not going to it's it's a good survival horror game but so much of it is on the back of the lore um but also I I kind of call BS un Sam Lake on that one I think that you do have to have played you have to know Saga helps a little because she's a little unknown to it but I just feel like you you need to have watched the story recap at least of the first game it it's impossible for me to give a you know an objective answer on that because I'm so well look at you I mean yeah look at what you do I don't I don't know if that's possible yeah I I mean I I felt like they did a pretty good job still of you know having Saga be an analog for new players and new to the whole thing and if anything I think they did you know obviously I mean it's so complicated yeah you having some familiarity really is the way to go I think regardless but I I think they did a really good job at just kind of like broaching every major Topic in a way that gives you enough you know kind of just a crash course like the FBC you know that they're a shadowy arm of the government that does you know the paral stuff and I I yeah yeah there there's definitely Saga walks you through it and she recap and there there's plenty of uh times in the game where Saga will catch herself up and it's like us as as kind of veterans you know maybe some more than others as they're where like oh we knew this we knew this back in Allan Wake one right but she's catching people up that don't know Allen even sometimes he'll kind of just blurred out stuff where it's like yeah we know but well we know but obviously he's saying it the so yeah I think they do a decent enough job I just think I think for maximum enjoyment if this is your first remedy game you know God bless you you know it's it's it's quite the one to jump into I think yeah and I I do think a lot of people are going to jump in and kind of be overwhelmed but you know thankfully there is like a whole wealth of information and resources out there like you know I I got deeper into it due to other people kind of yeah showing the way and and like I said for Kingdom Hearts like people play Kingdom Hearts games I've met is I I've covered Kingdom Hearts a ton people play it for the Disney Worlds like that's what a large amount of people say on Twitter and stuff and it's like I'll never understand it but we're kind of living that again with Alan Wake where you can play this game and it's a pretty good survival horror game it's game you know actually pretty good but obviously and just like Kingdom Hearts there's so much more you know if you're willing to follow Sam Lake all the way through yeah I'll be surprised if people don't at least get curious about the rest if this is their first remedy game yeah yeah I also think control was a good uh intro for a lot of people that seemed to bring a lot of new people on board and uh I if if you're are coming from control specifically as your you know that's your first one this is your second one it it's going to be pretty satisfying to be like oh man it's all there yeah yeah so so I mean like like I've told you and in my audience knows like a lot of this is unplanned I don't really have like a checklist I just wanted to you know maybe we'll hit some key points of the like spoiler kind of story we both talked about the game you know in a non-spoiler way um so I guess what I mean the ending right is one that probably jumps out pretty yeah what did you think about that goddamn ending uh it wasn't what I expected I I did expect a little more uh sort of a little bit more of an actual conclusion uh especially where it just you know like the first part of the ending where I think Casey is just like oh is it over yeah and then it just ends I was like oh come on that's so abrupt but then having the message from Alice at the end and realizing that she'd been guiding yeah Allan I I feel like Alice was possibly the one who was giving the messages to Rose because Rose was like oh Allan you were giving me all these messages you guiding me all the time and remember that at all because they never yep they because they never concluded that little Arc the last time you see Rose and and Allan directly tells her you know I did not send you those messages so it had to have been somebody yep that's what I was thinking too and so it like knowing that she was in the dark place and was being kind of taking on like the role of the bright presence from the first game yeah like Thomas Zayn's the divers role uh it it puts everything else in a totally different context yeah yeah no I I agree and even I mean this is full on spoilers so I mean everybody has already been worn based off the title but the whole final message in the game you know before the ending of her eliminating herself let's say for YouTube purposes my jaw I my wife doesn't care but she was like in the room I looked at her I was like oh my she died and I I couldn't like that was such a big but even her pictures I kind of I was hoping in fact I told my wife in that moment I said like did she jump back in so she's just in the dark play like everything's okay right and turns out thank God you know I that's what I was hoping I was like oh wow are they really going this dark with it and you know I mean they they swerved on us but that was pretty heavy oh it was yeah very and but you know it needed as Allan says uh or well somebody said like it needed to h no I think Alice said it right everything needed to happen that way so she had to you know have those messages and uh so Allen could kind of you know continue to descend down um right yeah what a freak like that just her eliminating herself that was a big one the ending the bullet you know shooting I was I thought if you end the game like this I swear to God like where where it's unsure because I was like clenching my saying Allan can't be dead like you're not because my theory has always been like they're going to find a way to get him into control too I think that they're you know it's going to eventually meet and he'll be uh a bigger character in this connected Universe with Jesse and but like the way it ended I was like well I guess my longstanding theory is dead you know it it's so hard to say because every time alen starts a new Loop yeah he's checking his forehead for that bullet wound but there's also this scene where he seems to shoot himself yeah in in in one of the writer room scenes and so either that end scene where where Saga shoots him with the with the bullet of light or whatever uh either that is the start of a new Loop or that or the other one is but it's so hard to say like like I want to I want to try to like because I feel like you can get so much deeper I feel like if if you don't want to get too deep the way I would explain it or the way that I want it to kind of unfold is just all of that stuff like the new information is stuff that's never happened so when he says you know it's not a loop it's a spiral it's literally they've never but you're right with the like that actually hurts my theory the idea of touching his head is I wanted to believe okay well now you've done this Mr scratch part and that's never been done before so now he is in like a a deeper layer than what he was before so he literally has succeeded in in in because it was never a loop right like everything was to build to something else right and and that's what I want but it's possible that's not the case you know Sam Lake can mess with it yeah and then so it was also announced I think just a few days ago that they're adding New Game Plus with like alternate narrative stuff and yeah I I have you know the first Allen wake game when I first played it uh I was really like that's the ending like that's they just it felt so abrupt and then when I played the two DLC episodes I got a little more kind of closure on it and understood okay now he's on this other journey in this other realm and then the same thing with control the ending to control feels a little abrupt and and then when you play the two DLCs like the foundation feels like the actual ending cuz you know B basically all these games seem to have like the hero they never like go through everything and then wind up back where they started they always like wind up in this totally new place yeah yeah uh and so that's you know that happened in all of like even in max pay you know like Max started as just a regular guy and then by the time he was done with the first game he knew about all these secret society and all like the everything behind the curtain of how the world really works he could never go back from that right and and all these characters get changed in the way Jack Joyce and Quantum break too like he's seen the end of time he's seen all these things like everybody winds up in a place that they could have never even conceived before this so I'm I'm assuming that Allan is ascending or descending into some new area of the dark place or of his own Consciousness that we'll understand more that when we get the full game yeah yeah which I will I'll again take that's that I'll take shots against it but that's more of like a gaming industry issue I I've never been a fan of finishing the game on but that's that's separate from like the the lore in theory I'm just not a fan of finishing it on DLCs but yet again the game does have an ending right it's just that it'll have more kind of closure maybe or more questions um and it's hard too with these like with the like this game particular yeah these are different these are different beasts like entirely versus a normal game I don't want to hold it to the same standard only because they are telling a like a serialized story that's going to take place through multiple games and they've said a few years ago like starting in 2023 uh in like an investor meeting they said that their plan is to release a new game every year so if if they're I mean if if what I think is going to happen is going to happen like I think by 2025 we'll see I I probably control two yeah um but they also have the multiplayer games they're working on everything but I I imagine there there it's not going to be the kind of thing where we get this kind of cliffhanger ending and then we have to wait uh oh no yeah a really long time for the next piece yeah and and and I I kind of appreciate in the sense that I think they're still even though the DLCs I think will move the needle somewhere I appreciate that I do think they're going for Allen wake 3 like they want to make it very known that like this is going to or they want it to continue does mean it um I was actually telling somebody like I am getting I'm not super worried but I'd love love to see like sales figures because we know how the first game has struggled historically of all time to sell so I just I really want this game to do well and I think we're both doing everything we can to kind of spread a positive word about it I that's you again that's separate but I just really want this game to do well is I do want an allen wake 3 at some point in my lifetime which might happen yeah and I you know especially with if they're going to continue to partner with epic I know that uh Allen wake remastered didn't turn a profit yeah yep uh so that was kind of a you know that that was a big bomb for epic as a publisher kind of you know footing the bill for that yeah not seeing any money back now like Allen wake 2 has to like really perform if epic's going to continue to take chances on this studio you know cuz I and I I I understand like all the criticisms of Epic as a company and and some of their practices but also I I I think it's rare to find like a a large AAA publisher that's totally benevolent and doesn't have any uh thing to complain about yeah uh but at the same time it's like remedy has been trying to work toward self-publishing as an eventual goal and it's hard for them to find places where they can get the money they need to make the games they want and I think they do a really good job with limited resources like I I never felt there's been other games where you repeat stages oh yeah that that I get kind of like tired of it by the third or fourth time but in Alan W 2 like I I couldn't believe how well they used those same Maps three four five times each throughout the game and it never really felt yeah too syy so I I feel like they know how to work good within a the constraints of a budget y uh but I'm hoping that this game does sell enough to Warrant the third one they're Elite they're honestly you know and as time has gone like I played Allen wake when it first maybe not like the first week or month but I have memories of and I rented I've told the story of me getting into it but I I went back all the way you know to when it first came out and I I really respect remedy and like I keep saying with like Kingdom Hearts like I'm into these kind of wacky like these these games who just ask so many questions but also like they're so creative and I think they're so talented it's like not just Allan Wake not just do I want a third game but I want this practice to be rewarded right and if it if it sells 400,000 units that is not a re that is serious trouble and you don't get to take these chances anymore right like and that's what happened in the past you know with the first down wake so that's just what I get really worried about that it is so whack I mean so many people are watching it on Twitch right there's a lot of people but that doesn't mean people are buying it so it it's going to be interesting to see I want to see them say it sold a million units like I want to see that like tomorrow as soon as possible you know yeah uh for sure I I I think that it's also definitely like a game of the year Contender for a lot of places that are doing those sorts of you know coverage and and even like the game awards or anything like that so I know like they're in a good position to if it doesn't if it doesn't like have a huge showing in the first week or two yeah I think there is room for the game to have continued success over the next like you know 3 to six months but yeah also it it is the kind of game if you're if you're watching it on Twitch there's so much it you know with the with the liveaction stuff it it is something that almost like I think you could watch a let's play yeah and feel like you got it you know yeah yeah I mean so so the the musical I I've been dying to talk to like literally anybody possible it is a you know it's his fourth chapter it's only the fourth and there's many more after but it feels like such a gigantic spoiler to mention it um let's go on there I really want to focus that like did your jaw drop like what did you well that that was an epic level so like uh in one of the I think it was in the dark place teaser there was one literally one frame where they showed him yeah like oh that looks like choreography and I I was like they couldn't they wouldn't do an Allan Wake musical maybe they would but it seemed so far-fetched I was like oh it's probably misdirection it probably looks like that and then when it actually happened I was like oh my God yeah they re they they I didn't I even as was happening and it kept going I couldn't believe how involved it was with the different outfits and the the just like everybody Sam Lake and uh David herwood like all getting involed D in the dancing y uh it's really good yeah like it was like I play guitar so like it was rocking like it was amazing solo shredding and and it goes on and on but it does not overstay its welcome like I kind of wanted more and when you would reach the TV right to like enter the next phase of the chapter I was hoping that it would just be like a a set change and would keep and it did multiple times and then eventually ended but it was like just yeah keep going like I you know this is fun it's recapping the first game at Parts like it's epic it's it's so good yeah it it's a really really really awesome part and I I don't know it was just like it was it was also really cool to hear how they did it with the dynamic changes in the music where I I kind of got stuck at one part where I I kind of like Turned myself around yeah and the music kept going and then it changed in such a natural way when I hit the next Point like I don't know I mean I'm sure they just have the stems and it's just like programmed in such a way that it Loops I notic that too with the guitar solos and how it would transition perfect when you would reach a like a Breaking Point it would it wasn't this this jarring like okay we have to switch songs the way the guitar was like the just the melody of it it worked where you could just change it on a dime and it it felt like it was transitioning well I noticed yeah because I I got lot not even just that uh level man I got lost in this entire freaking game the dark place is dark as the name s like it's just very hard to see in it and my eyes aren't that great and so I got turned around so many freaking times in this game yeah I got I think the worst for me was in parts of the forest oh my God and then uh especially like in the like just like The Cauldron Lake area and uh also the hotel was really hard for me to navigate yes yeah me too me too there was a couple of times where I wasn't sure with his scenes the theater with the movie right before the movie I was like what in God's name does it want me to do when you have to find where um the the the suicide is I think you can say like I was like where where in God's freaking name am I supposed to find this um changing scenes trying to and then actually that specific one where you you're supposed to take the police car and you go behind the wall and you I had to look at a walkth through I could not figure out where to stand in that I I totally got through that by accident I was there for 30 minutes I got through some by accident in this game yeah if I if I could have I would have looked up a walkthr and that was another thing that kind of sucked for me having the game early was like yeah you you can't I couldn't ask for help on anything really like I there was a PR rep I I guess I could have reached out to but yeah you know what I'm going to say like oh I need a hint on how to get you know yeah yeah I've been worried about that with other I think I got plague tail reum early and that game I got two weeks early and that game is puzzle after puzzle and I'm I'm like awful like that is my weak spot in gaming so me and my wife I was like I need your help I because I cannot do it I'm not going to ask them how you figure out she did it she's saying in the background she did it all yeah but that's the gameplay part of I think Allen wake is it's it's very clever it obviously there's lore kind of going on literally at all times but just the scene changing or Saga with the Mind Place profiling I didn't even really think about the profiling part I don't even think I if they showed that in the kind of early footage and stuff I never really paid attention to it not like a super clear way yeah I love the profiling of an asking the questions and you'd see them flash behind her like that was I was always looking forward like whenever a new person would pop up that was the first thing I would do like that was just a blast yeah I it was really cool just to get like these New Perspectives on the characters and also kind of building the idea that she has this like level of Clairvoyance and yeah can kind of like you know just peek into someone's psyche like that it and it almost seems like she doesn't even really understand it herself like how she can do it yeah and it it's a great parallel to like Allen talking about how you know oh I I get these flashes too and like I I always just thought it was me just being inspired and having creative ideas but he's actually pulling from real life right uh but even that like he he says it pretty explicitly yeah but one thing I'm trying to make sense of maybe maybe you have a take on this yeah um all of the Alex Casey Echoes that Allan experiences in the dark place yeah those appear to be Alex Casey investigating the New York City murder cult in around 2013 yeah which is something that like an FBC document mentions yep and but at the same time it sounds like he's interviewing people from Bright Falls like uh Ed Booker and one of the cost Brothers yeah and so it's like I can't tell which layer of reality he's on right there if that's something that happened or not or that that one got me like I was having a blast finding them I try to like stare at the perfect angle to see like all the flashes but I got to be I had no freaking clue you know I was trying to make sense of it too you're right because like it it very much is like the present time because of who he's interviewing but he also mentions New York to Saga like in the car and there's clearly like some time warp I time warping is like a thing throughout the whole game right like the big twist of the of Allen being Mr scratch like that but then also the clicker putting Allen that was Allen but it it sends him there in the past which by the way I mean if you think about it just I don't know if that actually works like I'm not a I don't even know what you'd have to be what profession studies that stuff but does that make sense that because if he if she didn't do the clicker stuff well he already came back anyway so you didn't have to do the click but I guess you did because it was it was going to happen anyway right I'm trying so hard to make sense of that uh I I trust that they got it because I it's it's like a classic Trope like it's like like it was going to happen you could ask the question well what if she literally did not do the the band and the clicker but like the idea of that time travel cliche is like well she always was she had to yeah and that's that's kind of like The Core theme have you played Quantum break I've like researched it but I've never actually played it myself but I know about it but that's like the discussing like the nuances of that is like a huge part of that game and I know that remedy like did the like the best they could to make the science make sense yeah yeah um so I trust I trust that they did it in a way that's logical but that's totally Beyond me right now yeah well what do you think of those big so like the big twist you know Alice is one and we we'll get to like the rest of the ending too but so the big twist of like Allen kind of getting himself to become Mr scratch the idea of Allen uh the clicker whole idea what what' you think of those kind of moments in the game yeah I mean there was so much kind of misdirection and the whole game is just about perspective like you're looking at something but you don't really know which angle you're looking at it from yeah so like knowing that scratch and Allen were kind of the same person it it's that's something I'm still like it my theory right now if it makes any sense is just that when we first saw scratch in the first game they were two separate entities like he looks right at them they're both there yeah and then in American nightmare he kind of like defeats scratch yep and that to me makes it seem like scratch kind of then like lost his physical form yeah his his Allen wake double form and that's where he became like this entity that can kind of shift into other bodies yes yeah I think yeah I and I I said even from like a gameplay perspective it made a lot of sense to make Mr consider survival horror to make him this kind of like jump scare fest like how many times did he freaking jump scare and you know he's always kind of there but yeah he's more of like a spirit that's able to kind of like flow and and POS possession I guess right like that's what he's able to do now versus uh in the past so yeah I I I think you're on it I think that's right and was so and then at the end I have a whole thing I got to ask you about about the end let me ask you this okay so when oh my God okay so they enter the dark place right I'm the entire ending including when Allan is writing the final chapter of that is still in the dark place correct I think it has to be is he never he goes in right so he's that's that's my basic understanding right now so my question is I guess I should have seen it coming I guess with the whole like when he gets shot and then he wakes up like and but the my question like even with Saga with her daughter like is she gone because isn't she still I guess to boil it down is Saga still in the dark place I think the answer has to be yes right because she was in her mind place which kind of transferred to Allen's writing room but all still in the dark place they never got out unless maybe they did Saga and Casey are both in the writer's room in the final scene correct but that's in the dark place not in real not in like real life think the writers room exists in real in reality uh right I mean cuz it it it never how'd she get out never did she just opened the door or uh or no that was did she open she opened the door then she had to do the whole Fountain uh The Shoe Box thing right but then the very final scene where she shoots Allen and then Casey's kind of getting up like that's all in the writer's room right and so outside so they are out no no they can't be right cuz the writers room is in the dark place it doesn't exist outside it cuz it's it's a it's um the dark or the the C the the writer room is supposed to be like the the cabin from the first game yes but that cabin never existed right it was like a it was manifested by the dark presence to kind of trick Allen yeah because like when everyone in reality is looking for the cabin it was gone you know the attic of the manor right in this oh right it's no oh my God no I wasn't even considering that he has to go up there and be let in and I guess m yeah like no I get you I have no idea that that's just what gets me about the ending is like she no she gets the call from her daughter first right like the phone rings and it's her calling Saga but when Saga calls her the phone just Rings indefinitely we don't know whether she I assume she lost her daugh even though she made it very clear to Alan that the daughter has to Logan right that she has to survive but Allan kept saying almost to the point of like okay we get it they both have to make sacrifices and Allan sacrifice could be constantly getting shot and you know left for dead and all that but Saga there's no consequence unless her consequence is still being in the dark place but I feel like she may still lost Logan I I think that's totally valid and also I I've seen the theory kind of proposed that Allan Allan knew that she had died but kind of like shifted things to make her think that that Logan was alive to give Saga something to fight for oh my like giving her that and like the opening line I actually I have my notes from my uh my God I should have play through here uh he says something like uh you know it we might be better off like trying to just like live with that hope um I don't have the full quote here but I wrote that like underline live with that hope hope like it might be better to to do that than to face the reality of the story yeah it kind of made me think like oh my God is he like giving Saga this false hope but at the same time I don't know like you had you had you had T and OD like they kept telling her like it's just the horror story like see through it and it's like I kind of trust them now they're insane but I kind of trust oh which by the way the whole time travel thing so when they walk into the lake that is them perform ing the musical right so they went back in time technically or no that's how I saw it I saw them as going it and when they were searching for Saga they ended up making the band and doing the musical that Allan sees in the fourth chapter so they kind of went backwards in time they failed they also didn't find Saga you know I never considered that but I I I was like how are they how are the young versions of them in the dark place yeah that's how I I read it as like time travel and they went back did you get to keep them now also from just like maybe Sam Lake likes them right and you just want to kind of keep them for future things now they're young now you can they're trapped so they're kind of like Eternal in that way so I feel like that's a clever way of kind of keeping them around for the third game or DLC or whatever but yeah the The Saga thing really just got me where it's like how dare you end on the phone call firstly you you mentioned the Alex Casey how dare you end on the phone ringing that that in a good way like that that upset me where it's like how could you um but then I was thinking I was like but yeah they're still there they never none of that like Allen's dead at least you think and then it's like but they're not out yet so that needs to be solved right it's so hard to say what so the one thing I do know is that um the they mentioned that the night Springs DLC focuses on other characters yes yeah I'm assuming that we might play as Estes or Casey or Tim breaker or something something yeah um but that the Lakehouse DLC is going to be more about Saga and Allen's stories intertwining again yeah yeah and I kind of wonder if you know we know the lak house is uh a location that the FBC has set up in cauldron Lake yep um I didn't find it to my second playthrough but did you find like the gate where there's like the buzzer and no okay I totally missed this the first time around but you know in control like there's a letter from Estes saying like oh we're at The Lakehouse and like we're having troubles with our monitoring equipment yeah and then you see I think it's Steven Lynn is the engineer he's working on the monitoring equipment yeah so the FBC has an actual like headquarters uh like a mobile headquarters there on the lake but it's it's gated off with like a big you know security gate but there's a uh like a call buzzer there and you can go to the thing and they'll kind of just like they don't really respond you just kind of hear some like no noise on the other end yeah but they've established like the lake house is an actual location there and so now that like Estes is kind of like invested in the story and invested in what happens to these people and if if you know what I think is correct like she's still not totally in touch with headquarters because of the lockdown yeah um there could be some sort of thing where like Estes and her FBC resources are able to connect with Saga now and try to pull them out like I I don't know it really yeah it leaves it open but I I am hoping that because I almost think Allen stays I think Al because like and that's what kind of because my theory was always like before we played the game when we had no freaking idea what this game is going to lead us down I just thought something would end up happening where they get him to be a bigger part where they really connect him to Jesse and I don't know not not like a cop Duo kind of thing for like control 2 but like where he could really do it I feel like how Alice leaves off the the final the mid credit scene I feel like it really because she like throws everything out there right where it's like we're almost there like you know and it's like that very much sets up like the finale of this trip like that's how I read it it's like this is it we got one more we got to go deeper we got to keep going and this is going to be it so I almost feel like you got to keep him in the dark place and then maybe he maybe he'll die at the end of the third or whatever ends up happening but like that's still going to be so important for the third game so I almost feel like he not going to leave there's also questions I got two uh characters to run by you Mr door and then Thomas the most fascinating character I think Thomas Zay in the entire uh so Mr door is fascinating obviously because you have the connection maybe with Quantum break and all that but also that's left unresolved too right we talk about all these things that aren't finished the last time Allan and him talk is not a nice conversation he does say he's going to meet him again but it's not going to be like swell and that's it so what' you think of that so something I noticed on my second playthrough is um there is a notebook you can find right there near the lake and it's talking about like oh I woke up I had the Visions again like I keep seeing these shapes like these like these hedron shapes and they all look like the shapes from control like the same shapes that Dr darling darling was seeing before he kind of got taken away by hedron and everything going on there and it it turns out that notebook is Tim breaker's notes and you find the same notes on his whiteboard later yeah yeah um so it it it makes me think that like there's something deeper like Allan is clearly going to have some confrontation with door because it was yeah like you said explicitly stated yeah but there's also like that thing with like his connection to Tim breaker is so curious to me yeah it's it's it's a direct echo of of those two characters and their relationships in Quantum break yep but like where it gets left off in that game is that uh you know basically sha ashmore's character doesn't know how to trust hatch or door whoever like they don't know for sure what to make of them and it's like knowing that door already interacted with uh Jesse's brother uh Dylan in control it's like I just I feel like they're teasing us so hard like I feel like there's some huge Revelation coming where where Mr door is clearly like a much much much more powerful character and also I've had people tell me this week they really strongly believe that Mr door is saga's Father o and there's like a bunch of evidence to support it that I totally glossed over but oh wow uh you know Saga was was born in 1989 Mr door appears to be the same person as this bright Falls resident who disappeared in 1988 during an awe oh and uh that there's like there's all these like weird implications about him having this big battle with the Anderson Brothers before he disappeared and yeah I it it's so unclear to me it's got me like basically know I'm just stuned yeah well I don't remember I should have wrote stuff down like you did like in that conversation with Allen I'm trying to like remember literally anything of he says a specific sentence where he says like either you're messing something up but there there was just one line that he said that I I didn't explicitly kind of link it to Saga but I did get the sense where he was kind of protective over her where I got the sense that he was basically telling Allen you're messing things up and you're ruining it for other people you're hurting like and he says some I feel like I feel like if I saw the cut scene he's not looking at him like he's kind of turned and then he looks and he says a line about maybe hurting or something like that and that's the line that I thought yeah I wonder if he's talking about Saga because Allen is kind of just ruining everything you know right and and like if he is forcing Saga into this and Saga has to make a sacrifice yeah it's like let's say Logan is alive in reality uh it would make sense that you know the sacrifice could be she has to lose her daughter and that's something that Allen is kind of forcing on everyone and yeah yeah I just don't know what because that's so like I said so explicitly said over and over like we're both we the heroes and for all the good that we're going to do here like there has to be something pretty which I like by the way because that's almost like I almost look at it as like a subtle jab at like Hollywood and just other games where there's really no consequence like I I took it as that uh in the moment because Saga even says that so directly but yeah it's like I don't really see her consequence in the ending where Allen gets freaking shot and and right you know and you can go deeper in the lore in that or you can just look at and face value like oh okay he's screwed Saga what's her what's her consequence she has she didn't lose anything so she could lose Casey she could lose Logan it's hard is Casey that important to her though for that big of a consequence it's hard to say I mean she you know they're in syn with the coffee thing yeah that's true you know they are pretty close but yeah know I but I just thought it has to be even her husband well but in the in the real reality maybe they divorced so he wouldn't even be all that important to her either so like Logan's like the only thing I I think you're right on with that I you know I I it other stuff seems plausible but not in the same way there's so much weight to her losing her daughter and it's like it's teased the whole time and yeah I don't know but yeah Mr door is hiding something and and he definitely has a deeper connection to everything going on he might have a deeper connection to a lot of the stuff that we'll experience in control too as well it seems like he could be like an over he could be like a Thanos kind of Arc you know of Remedy if they're looking for that he could be I think that's very possible to be a very similar type of character and they they have talked about how like it would be sweet to eventually get to that sort of like endgame level with everyone yeah I I think they're I think they're going for it and then uh okay Thomas Zayn so I I didn't make too many Theory videos leading into it but I did I made on Thomas Zayn and I'm fascinated by this guy that was some of the the key highlights of even your the first video I watched of you I was trying to pay very close attention whenever you brought Thomas Zay up um I think that's just such a cool story even what we kind of knew so far and then I gotta be honest I feel like they it muddied the waters maybe as like a negative they like made it way more confusing at least to me like I think I lost the plot I lost I for I like retroactively forgot things that you said in the video video like I feel like they backtracked in terms of me understanding what in God's name is happening so where do you stand like who do you think Tomas Z is what in God's name do you think is happening after you've now played Allen wake 2 it's on the topic of Thomas Zayn I feel like I know less than I did before in a way yeah that's where I'm at one thing I totally missed was uh you know in the scene where they meet at the hotel room for the last time mhm M Allan has the gun he's like you know if you try anything on me I'll shoot you yes and then he shoots him yes what I missed is that Thomas Zayn survives that right I didn't know that so that already tainted you left the room after that end I left the room I missed I missed him coming back up and I the it was the move because he wakes up and H he wakes up and he like does someone yell like he he stands up and he's like good or he says like good take something like that so it was part of them which just makes it more confusing because what what in God's name was happening there do you like what do you think like is he like I feel like they almost went more where he is a filmmaker but I'm always kind of confused on like his origin story anyway Weaver she has like a diary entry or something where she says like you know they're talking about Thomas being uh a filmmaker but I know that's not true I know he's a poet I know that's not real and like in my understanding of alen Lake lore like people who are people who have been like closely affected by the dark presence or by the lake yeah are people who can see through the awes and the shifts in reality that's how like the Anderson brothers are able to like hold on to reality even during an awe and presumably Cynthia Weaver has been in the same role so like I I kind of inclined to believe her that the the filmmaker version of Zayn is not the original Zayn yeah yeah they also like just hurt my like I I agree with you they also just hurt like like the diver which I mean you've talked about like technically not Thomas Zayn right more of like other stuff but like I have such kind of like good memories and I look at him as such like a good guy and very helpful to Allen in a way he's very cryptic as well but you know like he's got this very bright he's got this bright kind of persona this one he's you know he's just weird he's wild I you can't really trust him um he's making deals with Mr scratch right like all of this he's the villain he's actually kind of a low-key Villain at Parts in this game and it's like they I think there's way more with him that they'll continue to kind of feed us as these games go but um and I'm not saying backtrack like in a huge negative way like shame on Sam Lake but I feel like they took a different they wanted to go a different direction purposely with his character in this yeah and it it was kind of hinted at like over the course of like well one the fact that he is so nonchalant about Mr scratch in the first game he's like don't worry about him yeah yeah yeah it's like okay well actually you probably really should cuz it's like the most like negative evil version of yourself that could exist you maybe should worry a little bit yeah um and then in the two DLC episodes for alen wake one he's like he's he's he's more and more cryptic and seems more and more kind of like just a little bit more callous towards Allen or at least not as not as caring as he was initially when he was really his guide yeah and it's like I I began to like Wonder just after replaying that like is he going to take more of an antagonistic role and then here it is more villainous in a way but it's also like so hard to get a read on his intentions yeah cuz what's real cuz even the fact that like yeah he was like messing with Allan and then like got alen upset to the point where he was ready to murder him and and attempted to uh you know yeah for all intents and purposes did murder him and then he's like ah never mind it's all good you know it's like I don't know it it makes me wonder what he what his like what his goals are I don't even understand is he even trying to get out because everything he said about oh well you know I had to work with scratch cuz you stopped writing and you know I had no other choice I need to escape it almost seems like you know by the end of that scene like having kind of caught a recap of what happened after he jumps back out of Back to Life yeah it's like was anything he was just saying prior to that even real I don't know and it's also like why like why is his goal necessarily to like you never really get that sense too too hard in his lore to begin with like you don't really know what his end end goal is is his end goal literally to leave the because that's kind of what they've introduced but like you said it's so cryptic and it's not maybe not even him like you don't even what do you think might not even be him yeah what do you think to the theory of because obviously there's a lot of theories with Thomas Zayn of kind of who came first who created who if they're the same person if he's his dad like there's there's a couple different theories and again they they do not make it any easier on us because Allen is called Tom throughout the entire game yes so that certainly doesn't help because it only actually reinforces that he is Tom hin but what do you think to to that age-old theory I like to believe it and I mean it's clear they're forcing it on us like they really want you to question are they the same because everybody calls him it including ATI which which he has some knowledge that obviously is not being shared amongst the class and he constantly Tom Tom Tom over and over and Allen never at one Point says can you explain to me everybody in this game has to be dumb to an extent right because they can never ask direct questions although he does remember he says to Mr door like can anybody just give me a direct respon it's like we'll just ask direct questions Allan you know right it's it's something that like every time I think I have a theory that holds water it's like oh yeah but this totally crushes that theory right so right I I don't know I mean the the one thing that I kind of like am looking to is the fact that Jesse also remembered the poet version of Thomas Zayn which makes me think that that I really think the poet Zayn was real I think that if if all the lore leading up to that is what I think it is the real Thomas Zayn is is gone and the Thomas Zayn that we're seeing now is possibly just something Allan manifest Ed yeah in well in the dark place because like he was writing he was in the cabin he saw like the photos the diver he saw Thomas zay's books and so like he was able to like kind of like create he put Zayn into the story I think but then when could could could Allan have written a character who then writes Allen into the story as well on this sort of like you know double level of inception yeah I don't that's something I'm still trying to make sense of but my like my where I'm kind of like headed just like if I had to like pick a direction I do think that that the the Zayn that we see like Tom Zayn the filmmaker in alen Wake 2 I think is some part of Allen's own psyche yeah I think it has to be because it it's it's him it's literally live action literally him right yeah and I think that's a subtle not subtle way of of EX there's more layers to it but it's like what you're saying it's a manifestation it's it's taking what he's learned in the dark place but he doesn't have kind of everything but he makes this character and there's a little of him in it and all that stuff kind of put together literally makes it liveaction him and I and I think that's boil down what it is I think it has to be yeah but also I I can't make sense of why do all the people who seem to be above the powers of the dark place and above the confusion why do they all call him Tom yeah I that's what I don't understand yep so it it there's and also it seemed odd that like you know Cynthia Weaver didn't think of him as Tom when she knew Tom is Zay in real life you know to my memory in the first game she was never like oh my God you're it's Tom you know so what it became enjoyably annoying at a point where like I said like I just want him to ask one of these people why are you calling me Tom and he never does and it's just so nonchalant every he he he responds to people calling him he'll answer back like in the next sentence Tom hey and he'll say it well can you help me find this well you didn't say no to because it's Allen I think he says it once it's Allen that's it the closest thing I remember is in the first game like in one of the DLCs he asks the diver he's like so like that page with me finding the clicker like did you write that and he's like no yep and and he won't really give him a straight answer as to like where that page came from but that's the other thing that makes me think like well you know the one time he did directly ask like did you create me basically Zayn says no yeah which makes me think that that Allen may have just been creating all these other things cuz it even like he interacts with Casey in the dark place but that's like it's like he's manifesting that version of Casey from his novels yeah yeah but but also he manifested Casey based on the real person named Casey like he was seeing glimpses of his life so it's like was is was there just the actual poet Tom at some point and then Allan just through his writing created this alternate version of him that's you know this the whole Twisted thing I could I could go around circles for for days on it I mean don't you find it like a an aside isn't it kind of wild and that's why I respect Sam Lake and the tetsu andoros of the world like how do you craft something that makes just enough sense and is just sane enough that like you can talk about it with somebody else you could have Theory videos but it's also literally never ending only Sam Lake knows the answer sometimes in the case of tetsu and namora I don't fully know I don't fully believe that they know the ending to their freaking story but I'm going to give it to him in the moment isn't it kind of wild that like these things can exist where they're Loops but they're just deep they're just sayane because if it's too wacky you can't talk about it you can't it would be laughed at you know yeah it's the kind of thing where because I do believe there is a logical answer to this it's just a matter of deciphering it and maybe also a matter of eventually getting enough information um that that's kind of the only reason I'm willing to even entertain this kind of stuff and I think why so many people have for so long because like it is it it's it's really incredible that someone can make a mystery yeah and also intentionally kind of like leave out part of the crucial information to to kind of ensure that it will remain a mystery right right they need to have the story and they need to know exactly where to eliminate because if you eliminate the wrong thing you may give the answer away or there might not be enough to get clo like it's it's RIS like like it like similar stuff has happened in other in other media where it's kind of like yeah people just kind of get sick of it cuz it's like all right kind that's the thing with Kingdom Hearts man when you go too long and I love and I'm going to support Kingdom Hearts till the day I die or Tatu and Amora but you know eventually after 20 plus years 12 plus games you got the mobile game for kid like eventually the leash starts to you don't give them as much and Sam lake has a lot has a lot of uh slack right now and I will continue to give him that but Allen wake 3 can not be 13 years from now let me tell you that right now because we need answers God I'm not going to wait till till then to get an answer no and and I know that it it wasn't you know I mean they they started development on alen Wake 2 initially immediately after the first game launched yeah so like they didn't you know I know it kind of seems like if you're like not someone who's up and up on all like the remedy history it's kind of like okay like you waited 13 years to do this thing and all this stuff it's like like game development they started in 2019 right I'm pretty sure that's when they started like pre-development all this so it's it's actually it's not even that long like not only you you mentioned this in the beginning not only do they do great with a smaller but and they've said that right smaller budget their team is not the same size as a AAA team so they do magic with like a small but also they work fast four years yeah that's that's un it's normally five for a game like this so they're actually under the average of how long take but the the initial when they first pitched the sequel and they started writing and working on it it was back in like 2011 yeah so like they did even in the first game like I have like the book and and the making of book and they mention like oh there's a lot more about Thomas Zayn that we didn't put into this game that we'll reveal in the near future and just it turned out that what a cliffhanger you know they they didn't uh they didn't get a chance to do that for 13 years but I I the only you know so I'm just just knowing that they that the intention was Allen wake 2 will come out probably between like 2011 and 2014 was the initial plan yeah um I know that they didn't just no not like they I I know they had they had a path for this kind of thing I know they're not just like pulling it out of their asses basic and there's the video of Sam Lake announcing and he looks crushed like the guy you know he can't fulfill what he wants to do all right final question I have for you and it's not even a major to did you watch the movie the the full oh yeah I did too and it was long it was longer than I thought it would be but kep going like oh another scene yeah at some point I actually like it goes on for so long and it's so weird and I tried to get like a good seating view like you know obviously you can't sit you try to get like the perfect frame but eventually I thought this is going on very long but then I kind of convinced myself to say this might be like an hour and a half movie crammed in this freaking and it wasn't but at some point I kind of convinced myself what if this thing is a full featurelength film built in so what' you think of I mean Sam Lake carried it a lot he tried you know he did his best acting what' you think of that wacky those are the moments I think that lose people by the way I think normal people see that and say that's what's maybe uh that's where you kind of get a little too wacky which I understand I get well also the fact that it's it's completely optional you can just walk out of the theater you can you sure can um so I I do think hats off remedy for knowing all right we're going to get uh you know a little masturbatory here maybe go a little bit too far down like the weirdo kind of path but if you don't want to join us uh you know there's the door no consequences yeah uh but I I mean I really dug it I mean it was Goofy um it's clearly like them doing like their like David Lynch warship kind of stuff like trying to do these like yeah just like it was it was a very classic experimental art housee film which made sense for everything going on uh I really I did enjoy it and it made me want to see them do more yeah especially something more narrative driven not something so experimental but but at the same time it was just like trying to decipher how this all fits into the that's what I was trying and event I'll be honest eventually I just lost and I said I'm going to watch it but I have no clue I the beginning I was like okay how does this connect what what what layer of reality are we in who is it like you know all the and then eventually it just becomes this is like 15 minutes long I'm kind of like it's it's not zoomed in all the way right so you're still you know with Allan it's like I'll watch it but I've kind of given up now in terms of figuring out what you're actually doing with this movie yeah I the the only thing I I kind of took from it was that like it is like an encapsulation of all the major them themes of the game yeah it's almost like yeah there's like an abbreviated retelling of of the whole thing yeah within that some of it's very like metaphorical some of it's very like it's it's just super abbreviated but it is kind of the whole game in that short film yeah and so much of like Casey's investigation is surrounding that film but then like Casey was in it and and ATI was in it seemingly as yeah himself like they're talking about the bureau and everything and yep I don't know I I'm I'm I'm like I'm only two chapters into my second play through I'm hoping that after this playthrough I'll do the new game plus stuff later on and and hopefully get a better understanding but I I it very impressed overall but like I don't what the hell I think it's imp like and again like hats off you know I'm not sucking up or anything like you are you're the guy I found so YouTube I mean YouTube helped you YouTube's algorithm brought me to you but I I watched other people and I think you freaking crush it but to throw it out there like this took years you know like these videos you or the um the ultimate kind of lore one you made which at that 100,000 that was like this past that was August right that you made it so like we're talking years multiple people have to kind of chime in I think it's impossible for one or two people to figure out the entirety of the lore of allenway just same thing with Kingdom Hearts you cannot do like you need a small little cult Army to kind of have their two cents like you said did you notice this oh I didn't even see it in the game you know th and those things times 100 and that that takes time it's not going to be this year it won't even be before the DLC comes out it'll be you know after that so it's wild for sure I mean there's a like uh sir gut uh runs a thing called the remedy mysteries on Reddit which is like amazing resource for anyone who wants to go deeper into this kind of stuff and and you know he's even kind of putting out the theory that it seems as if remedy and Rockstar are creating a bit of a shared Universe which seems like a like a stretch but at the same time they have such a I mean Rockstar worked on the first max pain game before they even bought the franchise yeah um they've been super tight and they have like a a good working relationship and there are there are there there there's legs to that theory uh and so like reading stuff like that and there there's all these other communities there's people in our in our Discord right now talking about it like there is like a group effort to deconstruct it yeah but if it took you know over a decade for like a general consensus on a laot of the lore of the first game to be decided on uh who knows you're right I I think leading into this with your help and with others like I think there's a pretty good you can follow along and you can watch a couple videos or a couple and you could get where we're at so far but that took 10 plus years 10 plus years and so even you know internet's faster and people I think maybe are even more invested but probably three four five years until I feel like we would and then control two comes out and it'll probably just ruin like it'll just that's the other thing I keep thinking is like I want to make like a like I want to get like a definitive Theory out there and then it's like well who knows by the time I do that is it going to be like kind of crushed by control too yep yep um well I we've gone an hour I think we covered is there anything we missed if not we can wrap it up is there any spoiler I mean there's so so so much to talk about if I guess the only thing I would say just as you know a kind of final thought is like it was really gratifying to see remedy we basically got like a third max pain plot in this game well I guess a fourth you know but uh we got we we got like remedy's version of Max pain 3 essentially like and and they even like they put the music cues from Max Payne in there and stuff yeah um and then we also kind of got like a pseudo Quantum break sequel as well in this which is just like for all that to come together and then to even have some uh very subtle nods to the to the lore of death rally which I did not expect they've always put like a death rally arcade cabinet or a poster in their games yeah but there's even references to like the characters of death rally in this yeah so it it's just it's really sick to see the whole thing come full circle and and kind of just like have this major culmination of everything they've ever done all in one thing super impressive that it works yeah no I the fact that they made a survival horror game and they introduce Saga and they have these the the Mind place and the scene changes and that's that's very heavy gameplay and then they they take the opportunity to say okay we're going to do survival horror so we can make Mr scratch the psychological kind of nightmare and how they do jump scares with like kind of the bleeding effect of the environment changing and those are just like gameplay elements that's just enjoying the game then they do the live action stuff and they say why don't we just do a musical why don't we make a film a 15minute film you know like and then like you said uh finishing their other games finishing their other franchises while also continuing this while also leaving it open for f like it is unbelievable and and that's you know honestly that is why I love it that's and I try to make that clear in like my review where it is not for everybody and you know what it wouldn't surprise me if this thing didn't sell a million because I don't think there's all that I think that's what makes it special there's not 10 million people like us that play these games there's just not yeah it's a niche thing yeah it kind of has to be for it to work because otherwise if you start trying to satisfy too many people you're going to water it down right it's not not trying to sound like a gatekeeper or anything it's just literally like it is it it is kind of hard to get into sometimes cuz it's so weird and so Niche and it's whole thing it's doing you can't please everyone even survival horror it's like that genre has gotten like more of a Resurgence in the last few years but even that's been kind of like a niche gen outside of like Resident Evil and Silent Hill yep and this and this really a lot of their ideas of surviv I I want to give them some credit because I think the Mind place and stuff like a lot of that's really good A lot of the function gameplay of movement shooting enemies is just ripped straight it's just Resident Evil that's all it is inventory everything yeah yeah which is fine because you you might as well copy the thing that's working the best and ultimately you might attract some of those people that say I'll try the game I'm not into the lore but I'll and that's you know mentioning with Kingdom Hearts like if you play those for the Disney World what's that equivalent here maybe you just kind of want to be jump scared maybe want to fight some of the enemies and there's some cool boss fights there's some cool things they do throughout the whole game um I don't know how much enjoyment you be so much is lore that's the that's a tough thing it's a tough uh Blend or it's a tough like balancing act because it is so Sam Lake it is so remedy but you want it to be playable and they do I think they do a really good job when it is but I don't know it's it's an interesting game well I appreciate you being here man and like I said in the beginning of the video check out his channel hidden machine does some incredible stuff and I'm sure the next several years will be exciting to see what you um you know put out on your channel but thank you so much man for for being here yeah thanks for having me of course well guys let us know in the comments what you think make sure you're subscribe to both channels Bell icon All That Jazz and we'll see you on the next one

Channel: Podcast Now

Views: 2,073

Keywords: alan wake 2 spoilers, alan wake 2

Id: V9CtVBwNTO4

Length: 65min 41sec (3941 seconds)

Published: Tue Oct 31 2023