#5: Mark Bowden: Body Language Myths, Mistakes and Modifications

welcome to the introverted doctor podcast this is a special episode where I interviewed Mark Bowden he's the leading world expert on body language and how to communicate he's written four bestsellers that deals with the whole concept of communication body language what we do what we do right wrong he's a consultant to many of the celebrities politicians fortune 500 companies was really an honor to have him as a guest speaker here we talked about all kinds of things from his struggle with dyslexia to the mistakes that people make when they're trying to connect with people about manipulation good manipulation bad manipulation we talked about the mistakes that doctors make clinicians make in trying to connect with people we covered so much ground in territory we also talked about his experience in theater and how that led into his current role and we also talked a lot about magic and illusions and some of the ideas behind that I really think you're gonna love this episode and so without further ado we're just start and I hope you enjoy this [Music] mark I gotta tell you I am super excited to have you here on the podcast and welcome to the show well and you know I'm happy to be here happy to be with you and and answer any questions that you've got you and your audience well I gotta tell you I've had trouble sleeping last few nights because of the knowing that I'm gonna be speaking you with you today and all the knowledge that you've talked about with body language and the things you taught us at when you gave the keynote that the Schulich School of Medicine I mean it literally blew me out of the water and a lot of the doctors who were sitting beside me I think you're really dispelled you broke down some myths and mistakes that many of us make in the clinical setting so I was so taken aback by your keynote and I want to get into all that maybe just a little bit later but I want to start off the interview with kind of you know you and I have some very some similarities in that in my earlier life I was an illusionist and I did a lot of theater and it took drama classes in university and I did dance and so I learned some parts of body language and movement but you if I understand it correctly you started off in theater and so can you tell me how that led you to your current status to becoming you know number one leader in body language you know communication yeah so what happened was is as a kid I was really obsessed with movement and and and animal movement human movement just the natural world the way it moved why it moved then I got you know quite obsessed with just the movement of humans and image your imagery how imagery and especially our bodies and the way our bodies move affect people's minds and I got into visual art and then from that into visual theater so a really specific area of theater and film and TV where you're using the movie images to affect the way that people are thinking and feeling so it was really about how do you change people's emotions their feelings with the moving images that you can play them and are there some some Universal triggers out there are there some things that you can do anywhere in the world that will kind of get you very much the same results so I got really obsessed with with that and then people in business and politics came to me and said and they knew the work that I was doing within within theater around that and film and TV and they said can you do that with people in business and within politics who are presenting and trying to change people's minds from an influence and persuade I said yeah I reckon I can and and that's when I got into the area of I guess performance training for people in business and politics with this specific thing of my expertise by then in in body language or what many people call nonverbal communication but I just kind of call it moving pictures and influence and persuasion by moving pictures it then so happened that that I got asked to write books and so I've got four books now on human behavior and body language and and so here I am I guess I've just done a lot more than most other people written more than most other people looked at it more than most other people come up with some ideas that nobody else ever came up with I mean that's true there's some thoughts that I've had and some models that I've created around nonverbal communication which are unique and very very powerful and that's what has really kind of marked me out in the world of body language well you've really worked with some really top-notch people in theater you've had some amazing mentors how has that influenced your ability because I'm sure that really honed your skill set and knowledge yeah so I'm fortunate not by luck I mean I went out back to get it it was no luck involved but I was fortunate to be driven enough to go and find and study with and get alongside ultimately some of the best people in the world in in visual theater and so I was able to work alongside some people who are legendary in that area and become too much of an extent peers along alongside them so we really meant when I bought that world of theater to performance training I mean what many people would call presentation training really speaker training I mean there are many people out there who are bringing acting skills to that and and and some understandings of theater but just happens that the the level of understanding that I'm bringing from the theater is at a quite elite rarefied extreme level you know working alongside some of the grand most groundbreaking people in theater bringing that to presentation skills' means that I'm able to cut through in a way that many other people who've been in acting or been in theater been in film and TV just aren't able to to do I was really at the cutting edge of theater when I was when I was there well when I read your books it was really evident that you know you not only brought the theater aspect of it but you also there's the science behind it and you really thought things through not to be honest with you I've seen people talk about body language and then to hear you speak when you spoke at the key at the keynote and your TED talk that you did in Toronto really blew everything I had the thought I knew out of the water so I and also being in theater it really adds to the knowledge and skills that I know that that certainly made me a better clinician and communicator but you really took it to an another level and I think that where you've been so successful it's really Adam yeah for sure well I'm thinking in a very different way about it when I was in theater film and TV and as a performer myself we were all thinking in our in our area we were all thinking about that in a very different way it's it's true to say the work that we were doing revolutionized from renovated theater around the late 80s early 90s you wouldn't be watching the theater that you're watching right now if we hadn't have been doing that work back then and so I bring that work to the work of performance training for presentation skills for speakers for keynote speakers business speakers political speakers and bringing that innovative work which is a different way of thinking about performance about communication and and really trying to understand at a fundamental level how it's working on us how we as human beings work with each other socially how we think about each other how we influenced and persuaded by each other and again especially in this world of the the image and movement one of my mentors I call Jacques Lecoq one of his phrases was to bouche everything moves everything moves now we'll think about that yeah it's I'm we're moving right now this whole with circling the Sun the Sun is spiraling through the galaxy at extraordinary speeds that the the matter of my body right now in this room is moving right now everything moves the only thing that would stop even the atoms moving would be to go to absolute zero and and that's not going to happen so at least from the science that I can tell we're not going to absolute zero we're moving all the time we are a moving universe and and so you know we were thinking in those terms if if what links every piece of matter in in the universe is that everything moves well that's an extraordinary premise on which to start creating from and and so you know I still even though I'm you know I'm doing business keynotes and I'm I'm training business people and politicians and keynote speakers myself really I still see myself as an artist in that what the I'm trying to remind people that they're alive trying to remind everybody that we are physical matter because often people get very psychological to get very spiritual as well and they forget that this is real moving stuff all the time and that is an extraordinary thing to know that we are physical matter and we are linked by movement all the time so you know two point there I've just been thinking in in a different way than most other people in body language that's why the books are so different and that's why I've been given thee I guess the accolades that I have is that people in body language as well we're going wow we haven't we haven't seen this before we haven't thought about it in that way before it was it's been totally unique the way I've approached it well what I love about is that your teachings are simple yet elegant and you know once I had read your books I was able to see why is is it that when I'm watching another speaker or connecting with other people are trying to connect why am I not connecting and so much had to do with you know the different planes you talk about I really want to get into that in a bit but I want to ask you a question you know as an actor and performer I have my own biases or my own thought on this but you know people see me you know if they've seen me speak as an illusionist and they know that when I was on stage and you know doing to our stage shows when I used to do that and then currently speaking people think I'm an extrovert and I what is your thoughts about actors and performers are they extroverts are they all extroverts or there's introverts what is I just would like to hear your perspective on that so most of the ones that I I've met that I think are exceptionally good exceptionally good artists and performing artists ie they they communicate their art in bar a performance by something that happens once for an audience for a viewer you know their art is not something that is distributed on their own it's not it's not communicated for themselves most of them if not all that I think are any good I've experienced or any good really introverts in the in that they are real thinkers about what they're doing and why they're doing it and they will take time to to truly think through the possibilities and and and think about why and how and where and when and with whom and they'll think deeply about these things at many different different levels and then they go out and they do it so so actors are called actors because they do action actors really shouldn't think that's for philosophers but there's not that they shouldn't think outside of acting but when you're acting you must do because you're an actor you to do action outside of that you should be a thinker a philosopher you should be introverted for sure yes you should be social as well you got to hang around with other artists and you got to talk about it and you've got a you got to discuss it and get things going but that can be done but you got to think about it before you think about you that you go about how you act and then you must act and only act you must do the action so at that point actors can look very extrovert I can look like oh they're not thinking about this they're just they're just there in the moment doing it and that's true they are and they should be and that's why they're so compelling because they're a force of nature it's like I'm in an animal there with you it's like it's like when you watch a bird you look at a bird and you go the bird isn't thinking Birds just doing stuff you look at the Fox foxes and thinking it's just it's just doing stuff but what we what we've not noticed about the actor is is the thought that's gone into it beforehand and the community that they've been part of around that thinking so yeah one stage I will totally look like an extrovert and people will go guy it's got to be extraordinary around your house because it must be amazing to be a nightmare I'm already a nightmare to live with there's an introvert you know yeah be even more of a nightmare as a as an extrovert because because I won't be thinking at all I'd just be doing stuff and getting myself into so much trouble by not thinking properly about stuff before I do it well the reality is you can't write for books and and and and be an extrovert I mean there's so much thinking involved right I know when my 30 year old daughter she said to me she said when she heard the podcast titled with the introverted doctor she goes you're not an introvert I mean what are you talking about she said you know when you're performing and stuff like that and you know and she needs the goofy side of me but she also then I had to explain to her I said you know as an introvert you need a lot of downtime you need charged recharge and even in performing I think one of the I really think the keyed why I was successful in when I was doing magic shows and big stage shows was that there was a lot of thought in terms of movement the sequencing of the illusions that I would do and create the variability the music the lighting and the dance of performing and so there's a real purpose to what you're doing and so I I can totally relate to what your you're talking about yeah so it really is thinking about that and thinking about let's call it the choreography of that where there are no mistakes in the practice that you've created you've thought about everything so that in my view when you get on stage with that audience you're at a level whereby mistakes can happen and they become something more wonderful for other than you know that play with the audience that to have your mind free to practice for example the movement so much that your mind is free and your body is free to respond to what's happening in the audience you know I'm sure you've experienced when you've you've managed to practice an illusion to such an extent that it kind of just happens even for you well an absolutely the audience you can watch the magic happen in the audience's mind and eyes you can see you can see that you've truly created something true and real for them in a place of wonder for them well one of the reasons I still love performing magic and and doing that is that because it's so automatic when I see the illusion unfold in front of me is you know especially when I'm doing like close-up magic I myself am amazed as like what how does that happen like what and it's and because it's all I've done so much practice that the thinking about it is gone and uh and and them and I think people are they get entertained because they look like I'm surprised right as much as they are and that's the fun part of performing is you you there's that spontaneity of what happens with the audience and you could connect with them and the ad-libbing that's really what I love about performing is they it's just the things that will come up and the little love ups or the not necessarily it's love ups but the opportunities to to take something in a different direction that you may have not practiced or intended I and it actually elevates the game right so that for me is about being so practiced in your in your scale that you leave your you're able to leave yourself open for real life happening you see because because both what you and I are doing is we're creating an illusion we're creating an illusion if I'm up there speaking I'm creating the illusion that this has happened for the first time but I've almost never said this before that these thoughts are coming into my head you know right now I'm creating the illusion of of that much in the same way that I create the illusion right now that that you know I've never ever thought about this stuff before and this is kind of new and and and and unique and what that what that where that comes from is the practice of that of of the techniques around that but once you're really practiced in those techniques of creating the illusion that something real is happening you leave yourself open for something real actually happening and you're there on on stage or you're there communicating in business or in politics or delivering your keynote speech or your presentation and in your head you suddenly go wow this is happening for real like and this is this is a I haven't thought this before I haven't I wasn't expecting that question I haven't thought this and and you're you're truly in that moment and and the only reason you can be in that moment is because you've practiced creating the illusion of all the other moments essentially man and that and that's very different from you know many of the speakers who I see coming onstage who have practiced practiced practiced and it's still a script in their head it's still a script in their head and immediately you get this instinct it's not even instinct you know instinct and you know cognitively you know I could leave I could leave this speech and nobody would notice they don't even know I'm here this will it be exactly the same tomorrow they've rehearsed every move every word every pause it's it's they haven't left room for real life to actually happen to them and and it's and it's Hollow it's it's Hollow it's not it's not it's not massively bad it's just not art it just doesn't have it's just life isn't isn't there just like you have see and I've seen many many magicians whereby it's it's well executed but it's Hollow mm-hmm it has no life in it it has no moment for mistakes it has Nomo has no moment for surprise and then we've all seen brilliant performers brilliant magicians who you just go god this isn't even about the trick or the illusion this is about us being together in the room together the illusion and the trick is an excuse which is Brittany and I like this is just an excuse for me to be with a really interesting human being you know you could have said it better because I really I when I was when I'm performing I feel it an honor to have the audience because without the audience nothing magical happens you could be on a blank stage and and you could do the the illusion you could practice it but it is so boring the real magic the excitement that happens is the interactions you have with the audience and that's the fun part for me and I don't I'm sure it's for you you know when you're on stage speaking or performing you could be on stage for two hours and that feels like five minutes because you are so in the now and in in present there's nothing else distracting you ever so yeah it's interesting in that well I mean to that point of doing you know doing it on your own yeah the universe does not care that you pretended to make a coin disappear just doesn't doesn't get it keeps on spinning with nothing ever changes thank you so it couldn't the universe and the gods could not care less you had the illusion of a coin disappearing there is nothing more miniscule of meaningless than that really isn't yep but to be there with somebody where they experience the wonder of that and to create the wonder of that for somebody just like for me to be on stage and and create the moment where their mind goes wow wow so you can move your body in a certain way and it has an effect look it had an effect on me and they go they go well you just you just changed me on purpose right now you changed the way I was thinking you changed the way I was I was feeling you did that on purpose you you're up there and you affected me on purpose and it worked it happened to me and and they and they instantly feel that connection and they go wow we can we can so we can change each other we can have an effect on each other that's a really empowering moment when they feel that they can affect themselves as well that's a really empowering moment and and that's really what it's about it's not about the the content it's about the effect of the of the content just as it is it's not about that the trick or the illusion it's about the effect of that on on people that's where the real magic is for sure a hundred percent well you know I'm sure you've had people ask you you know well you know you're doing these techniques too they build trust or improve communication are you is it genuine you know isn't it kind of manipulation and I'll let you speak to that but you know certainly in terms of my perception I know a lot of people who have a genuine heart they want to be better communicators they want to connect with patients and their colleagues but they don't know what they're doing right or wrong and so when they you know when they have their hands down in the grotesque plane you know where they look so rigid and they look scared but their heart really is to connect with people and make things better and so if you could just speak to that yeah so so first of all yes absolutely it is absolutely manipulative I make no excuses for it manipulation is a fantastic thing that lism the primary reason why we have this such this big neocortex is so we can manipulate it so that we can manipulate and be dexterous and move things with our hands in in delicate and big ways and also the neocortex helps us for sure with this language a language is a manipulation with with language what we do is we take the the world the universe around it and we abstract it down into manageable pieces called words and we string those words together but the words are not the thing that this is I give you the menu not the meal but but the words can be so powerfully manipulative that you almost that you think sometimes that the menu is the meal it's enough it's enough for me to tell you something without you actually seeing it for you to believe it to be true and that's an extraordinary thing and in my understanding there is nothing else on the planet that can do that to the extent that we do it so human beings are manipulative and it's a good thing it's why we have this big brain this big brain is hard to get out of a mother because it has to grow so big yeah before before and it means we can't walk we can't walk when we're born because parts of the brain have had to become so big that we haven't been able to fully develop okay so all that pain of childbirth why so we can be manipulative now we can we can do it for good reasons or we can do it for bad reasons and you as individuals out there you have to decide that's up to you I can't tell you what's good or bad your bad is my good my bad is you know it's it's it's it depends on where you are who you where them what results you're trying to get and how much we come into conflict with each other as human beings but but essentially yes we are all going to manipulate now are we going to do it on purpose are we going to do it by accident because most of the time we're doing it by accident so you're your physician back in your description who has the heart to have a great trustworthy bedside manner has the heart to want to influence and persuade people to do the right thing to take their medication to take his hair their advice okay but they have their hands down by their side soon in what I call the grotesque plane and so they can seem disinterested tired indifferent to the advice that they're given but they have the heart for it they're manipulating their patients by accident into being indifferent to them to having a negative attitude towards them and their advice they are manipulating them by accident so I just go can we do it on purpose like what result do you want because if you want a certain result you're gonna have to do certain actions and it's not like we don't know the actions I know the actions to do I can give you the actions and you can do them or not do them and listen I don't care it's not my life it's yours do whatever you like you know if your physician you're probably gonna be okay like you do you put in a lot of work you know there there aren't too many physicians on the planet we always have a lack yeah so it's so you're gonna find something to do but would you like to do it really well and affect people if you do you might want to do some behaviors on purpose and for those you might want to choose your behaviors and choose your body language well the best clinicians in occupational therapists physiotherapist and any person nurses who I've ever worked with whether they do it consciously or unconsciously they I've seen they do use great body language and they know they know how to do it but one of the things what will we'll talk about some of the specifics but you really did change some mistakes maybe we'll talk about it now I remember when we you gave us this one exercise when two people are sitting in front of each other and they're talking and one person says okay can I tell you something really you know important or it's almost like your secret and I think the tendency is you lean as a listener you lean in forward mm-hmm because you think oh yes I'm all ears but instinctively it has the opposite effect rightly so with the right proximity or the wrong proximity to closer proximity when you move right in it can get into personal or intimate space and that can cause some negative assumptions depending on the relationship but on the whole that the risk of negative assumptions can go up the moment you close in on somebody's somebody's space somebody's territory especially if they're injured in some way yeah that because when you're injured your brain stem or what many people might call the amygdala can be very overexcited at that point and it's hyper-alert and looking out for risk and although somebody came in really close okay high risk high risk high risk so it's so sometimes it has the opposite effect so what we might want to do and now that's not to say hey you're gonna tell somebody something intimate leaned right back because what you can do is just more open body language just something more open even just opening out the face rather than you know I want to tell you it I want to tell you something really secret you know opening out the face and going I want to tell you something really secret it's more inviting but really it's about risk and reward is that there's certain signals in the body that that will indicate to others that something is low-risk and certain signals in the body that could indicate to them that it's high risk doesn't mean it is low risk or high risk but there are there are signals that are more likely to trigger them with those assumptions and their assumptions will always feel very very real whether they're correct or incorrect that totally designed to feel absolutely real and absolutely correct regardless of of how they are so yeah there are often some things that we as communicators do which don't get the results that we're wanting but actually they tend to feel good for us it's it's about the like designing an illusion designing a magic trick that works from your angle but doesn't ever work from the audience's angle oh you know you know there is one illusion I do which I don't like to do actually because it seems like the solution is so straightforward but audiences love love watching it and so I do it because it's it because I do it for them because they enjoy it they enjoy the complexities of it they enjoy the audience interaction of it and so I always keep that in mind is that you know what you know what is it that the audience has liked and you know and I've done it so many times I know that they like they're still right I totally hear you well so there was that one of my key trainers or mentors and a man that I went on to work with a huge amount in in theater great theatre practitioner called John Wright undoubtedly the one of the top visual theatre artists in the whole of Europe if not the not the world we worked alongside each other for years and years and years and years when I was training with them and when we'd be performing he would stand in the audience and and just be shouting out it's for the audience it's for the Lord you do it for the order do it for the audience's for the audience it's not for you nobody cares about you it's for the audience it's for the audience and that was a great education in that it just kept your mind going okay I my experience of this doesn't matter or certainly doesn't matter nearly as much as the experience and the angle that the audience have on this the optics that the audience have and also just you know where should my loyalty be placed here my loyalty must be placed in the position of the of the audience and doing it only for them or another I work with with with well one of undoubtedly one of the greatest practitioners of theater alive today a guy called Philip goli a and equal he said he's a he's a very nasty man a very grouchy he's the guy that Sacha Baron Cohen trained with and so the only reason you have Sasha's characters is because of Philip Gagne mm-hmm anyway so we'd be with Philip and he he would be doing something you know very deep and personal onstage and he began with nobody nobody cares that your grandmother is dead is he with he we totally wanted to get you out of this this sense of importance in yourself and and get you involved in the importance of the audience's experience so so yeah all of that to say you know the more we put any of us whether it's in business and politics or delivering speeches or keynotes or presentations the more we put ourselves in that audience position and think to ourselves I'm doing it for them it's only for them that I do this the more Connection we get and the better the communication is the more interesting it is entertaining it is absolutely well as you know clinicians and people when anybody who works in health care you know we talk about patient centered care so we're always looking at what is it that benefits them and their expertise and I remember and how can how can you make an impact how can you improve the trust so that they there is open flow of dialogue because you know you know studies have shown that you know patients won't tell their health care provider all the information you know I think I don't know don't forget the exact number but thirty percent of patients will actually tell their health care provider that they're taking their medication but in reality they're not because they don't want to let them down so also may ask me ask me if I've been taking my medication okay mark have you been taking your medication yeah I have because I'm lying I'm totally lying already today I forgot it yesterday the day before look I'm not going to die but but but it's but it will make my life better in the future but I can't work that out my brain can't work that out right now right now I'm trying to deal with life right now and so I will lie to you and our life pretty well like you know if you're smart you'll know I'm always lying but regardless of how good a liar I am but but I will I will lie to you so it is your job to persuade me like influence me manipulate me do something that's gonna help change my mind so I can be better because I can't do it on my own I need you I need you to help me and I and I think I'm sure it's been your experience as well there are there are many physicians who do better than that than others who are better persuaders who are better manipulators of people's minds in order for them to do what's better for them in some very cognitively dissonant worlds like I'm not able to tell if if medicine or specific medicines make me better I have to trust you trust the science and I trust doctors and I trust science and it's even difficult for me so you know I really feel that you know physicians do an extraordinary job because they study study study especially some of the general practitioners in that area such a huge amount of knowledge and experience so they can walk into a you know an aspect of it of a clinic and just go okay what's up tell me about it okay I think it's this right how do you know how do you know that like and then how do you go from that one to that one and know that one as well such vast knowledge but you know the more that they can improve their ability to then influence and persuade you know patients and and and and politicians and and and general society with their knowledge the better they can get at that the better everything gets for everybody what do you think are the in you know the top one or two mistakes that clinicians make when they're trying to build trust that they could improve on very quick yeah that's that's a really interesting one isn't it because you know because I haven't seen enough you know to really know this for sure I haven't seen enough but what I know from my own experience is clinicians are so under pressure hurried by their by their system but it's very easy for them to come into the room with you very much with the feeling that they left the last thing with you know which is or that transition with very much the feeling of the transition so it's almost like they're coming in with the feeling of their movement from scene to scene not coming in and and and projecting to you instantly the vision that they want you to have of them it's like this transition you know they they they they they hurry and you feel like they've come from somewhere important or hurry door or tricky or difficult and then they hit you and then they do their transition and then after a while you like oh I think this is gonna be okay I think that quite actually caring for me I think they I think they're quite interested in me but there wasn't the first impression that I got and understand I'm I'm pretty good because I've made it my practicin to to suspend judgment about people when I first see them because you know reading reading behavior and body language is part of what I do assessing that and analyzing that and one of the first things I have to do is is suspend all judgement you go I don't know what this says who knows where they come from you know what that's not about me that's about something else hmm so I think I think there's a there's an argument that says can you get your transition over with in the moment of transition and just before you come into the room with me or the space with me can you make a quick decision and and create the performance of who you want to be in front of me right now that will best influence and persuade me to make the right choices with you I hear you a hundred percent one of the things are that I took away when you did the keynote was how our desks and our furniture really hinders the communication and I recently moved to a new clinic and the clinic I was in before inherently allowed me to have the open I didn't have any obstruction when I was talking with the patient but in this new clinic setting I saw the way it was set up and basically I more or less had my would have to have my back against them or to the side of them and I actually bought new desk and reconfigured the room because of what you were what you taught and and just having that barrier between the patient automatically puts you you know like you said behind the eight-ball so that was a big learning I know the people in on the table and the doctors on the table they're like oh my gosh I better rearrange my clinical exam rooms because I'm totally you know blocking the patient and yeah not paying attention to them so that's why with physicians around that all the time which is often their office space which is also part of their clinic space is more set up for administration than it is the patient now I mean you and I both totally under skat understand that in them in modern clinics the administration of it is actually quite an important part the keeping of Records they it really helps people and and and the better that record-keeping is and the more universal it gets the the healthier all of us will be so it's very important that you input the data but it's it's often the room has been more setup for that for your for your benefit within that process and it has negated sometimes to an extent the situation of the patient and so it's just always worth looking at that setup and going how much does this help my client my patient right now and often just as you said that we set up blocks and and what blocks will often do is block off vision of you and your nonverbal behavior and when that happens the viewer defaults to more negatives as a good generalization is a very good gamble the less I can see of you the more barriers between you and me the more negative I'll get around my assumptions about you and therefore my assumptions about your help for me so it will it will actually you know the more I can't see you the more I'll go where I don't know whether that drug is really the one for me I don't know whether it that's that therapy is really gonna help me as a good gamble you know I win gambling the less I can see of you yeah they're less good I think your help is it's a pretty good gamble that I'm gonna win every time pretty much okay you tore open up that space you know can you talk about you know the truth plain because that's a huge learning you know that's that's a big area to immediately improve that so because you really I believe you're the one who created that concept right yeah yeah absolutely so the gesture plane system was first written down by me in my book winning body language which is almost gosh a decade old now so but I've been working on this for at least a decade before that at least a decade before that thinking about what are the major levers the simplest on biggest levers that affect somebody else's perceptions of us and I'd found the horizontal height at which the hands are had a fundamental difference and and uniquely similar difference across the planet as to the perceptions we get of somebody so an example of this and I by the way I'll give I'll give you a show give everybody a URL right now bit ly forward slash winning keynote and you can put that in any show notes MIT dot L Y forward slash winning keynote if you go there there's some free training for you on this gesture plane system video training but on the show know take out that video training and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about but the the truth plane for example is the horizontal gesture plane at naval height so that's exactly it at bellybutton high actually you know what I'm gonna do I'm just gonna stand here and you won't see my face but you're gonna see my hands moving and just get an approximation of of how trustworthy I might be just by seeing this part of my body and now all I'm gonna do is hang my hands down by my sides I'll still keep on gesturing there but now you can't see them as often you can't see if I was sitting at a table with my hands down and tucked into the table you won't be able to see it and all I'm gonna say is you can trust me this therapy is really going to help you and now I'm gonna say you can trust me this therapy is really gonna help you yeah you can trust me as a physician I'm here to help you you can trust me as a physician I'm here to help you and and is it very clear that one of me is more trustworthy than the other mm-hmm absolutely yeah and and and now I can bring my hands up here where you can see them and I can say look you can trust me I'm here to help you as a physician now my hands are up at chest height essentially and my guess is well it's quite exciting but it's maybe not as trustworthy so so with hands at exactly navel height especially with open palm gestures that's not essential but it's a it's real icing on the cake open palm gestures at navel height in a huge amount of trust so that's what we call the the the truth plane and and I find that I that that that term and designed the gesture plane system and all of that can be found in winning body language but as I say go to that bit dot ly forward slash winning keynote and pick up the training there for free nice nice yeah in fact that training was first of all designed for physicians Oh interesting yeah yeah that video training for physician leaders I was working with with one of the drugs companies actually in in with a drug for hepatitis and particular form of hepatitis and and they were trying to help their physician leaders get the message across to other physicians and their and their patients and so I was helping them with trust and credibility of getting that message across and and the training that you'll go to there was originally specifically designed for physicians no that's cool yeah well you know when you talk about the plane appeared like I think this was you called a passion play action play yeah and doing it the right amount or the right level uh you know I imagine it's good but then you see like you talk about this in the book when you do it too much or you're up there you can look a bit crazy or bit it can be overwhelming and I think that like what you were talking about when I've been at the conference was that this is really like an attack position right so then you feel kind of oh is he gonna attack me and so that I found that plane system so helpful and yes so there's more risk up in the passion plane simply because we know when hands go higher heart rate and breathing rate go up that's just the natural effect of hands being sustained at chest height there's just more more for the heart to do against gravity you know yeah so we get more excited by this a human being more excited can be more risky depending on the emotion that's going with it look a human being that is that is very happy and excited can be as risky as one that's very aggressive and excited simply because they may have both lost track of reality somewhat they both if we follow either one of them if either one of us then becomes the leader or you know there's there's a risk that they're not thinking accurately so this can be exciting but it's not necessarily that trustworthy and look there's no there's no bad body language there's just results that you wanted or didn't want then that saw there's no bad body language there's either the effect that you wanted or an effect that you didn't want and if you're not getting the right effect you change the behavior well the key is is what behaviors do you change to well and that's my my skill and my my art is is knowing the behaviors that are most likely to get you the effect that you want and that I've investigated you know possibly more than anybody else I I know who fir for sure and certainly many people would would say more than anybody else for sure is that I'm looking at what exactly do you want to do that will have an effect so so you were saying about stuff that's that gets confusing so if I do asymmetrical gestures up in the passion plane here which I'm doing right now so one side of my body is never really doing what the other side is doing you will notice this is already pretty confusing for you but if I just make them symmetrical if I just make them symmetrical it's less confusing now why is that it's because your brain wants to look at both sides of the body and if if each side is doing something different from the other side and that keeps changing that's a lot of neural load that's a lot for your brain to try and comprehend and because it keeps changing it can't make a good snap judgment because those snap judgments have to keep changing so what does it do it just gives up it just goes I don't get this I don't get this and when it goes I'm confused when your instinct goes I'm confused doesn't go oh good I'm confused it goes well that's really bad that I'm confused so then it makes its judgment it goes this is bad this is a bad person for me they have bad content for me they have bad advice for me and the reality is is I could be that the the expert that you needed it's just my gestures keep changing asymmetrically and it's high neural load for your brain your brain gave up it made me bad it took the wrong decision but maybe I should be a better communicator if I really want to help you maybe one of the things I want to do is concentrate on clearer more symmetrical gestures well back to our earlier point that's manipulative because I'm doing it on purpose I'm not being the me that I was before that that is totally ok with being asymmetrical I'm being a structured me I'm being the me that creates an illusion on purpose in order to get a purposeful result from you and the problem is is that could get a good result or a bad result and trying to get a good result from you so I'm doing it for good reasons so so you know morally from my point of view I'm I'm in the clear but there'll be people who will do this from other people's points of view for bad reasons and morally from from their point of view they won't be in the clear yeah well I think there's a difference between with the place where you're coming from and you know manipulation or being manipulative you know I think it has a negative connotation I mean still for me it still rings that tone sure but if you're really say you're trying to help somebody and you're doing these asymmetric gestures just with you doing it they're me watching you do it it felt uncomfortable to watch I mean just in those few seconds you know I could see on my brain say okay I want to leave this conversation so it's absolutely I never really experienced that until I saw you do it just now let me let me just do this and let you know what what I what I'm gonna ask you to do is take a small amount of synthroid every day you won't you won't feel any effect from that you know right now but over many many years it's gonna make things a lot better for you and could improve you know your your your chance of heart attack in the in the future oh gosh I've seen people talk like that I've seen people talk like that yeah all I'm gonna do is be symmetrical now what I'm going to ask you to do is take a small amount of synthroid every day and though you won't feel any effect from that really on a daily basis what will happen is in the future it will absolutely improve your chances of your heart being really functional and healthy oh that's brilliant brother and notice what happened is I started for me I started to choose my words better mhm as well but I was being all I was doing was being symmetrical on purpose and that might not be naturally how I speak so I'm not being the authentic me I'm being a structured me but I'm being a structured me on purpose in order to get a very authentic goal that of I want people to get better and also I'm still doing no harm you know I'm still first doing though so so I think you know as a communicator you need some strong values to keep keep a certain compass you know well but outside of that I think you kind of if you want to be a really great communicator you've got to do whatever is necessary in order to get the results that you want think about those great think about those great illusionists that you and I will have seen and when you when you find out or you get a hint of what it is they're doing to create that illusion you kind of go wow they pushed it that far they really do that they really take it that that must have taken so long and so much energy and so much money so much effort to create that moment for the audience but they're willing to do it they're willing to sacrifice all of that to get that moment that's why they're they're great they're willing to do whatever is necessary to create the effect even I mean without giving too much away you know especially if if a magician or illusionist says look you know there are no I've got no plants in the audience there are no camera tricks in this the first thing you expect is there are plants Americ amateur there's I mean to you yes there is I think to you one why are they lying to you because by lying to you they can create a beautiful moment of wonder that could affect your life that could make you understand that the world is much greater than you thought it was and they're willing to blatantly lie to you to get that moment they are artists you know what I always say about magicians and illusionist you know we're in one sense where the most honest because we are clear about that we're out to deceive you and look for entertainment but the whole purpose is to have that sense of wonderment and that's what movies are you know you watch it or a book you you're escaping to a different set of feelings and excitement because right on a day to day level you know we get so caught up in the mundane and rituals and like if you look at a cell phone like a it's at what the things you can do you can talk to somebody you know on the other end of the earth through this little square little box that you have in your hand that's spectacular yeah but we forget that and then you have to go see a magic show or you see a magic trick and it's like oh my gosh that's amazing because we've taken them to a childlike state so I think that's right well I think the thing is is that is that again you've reminded them of being alive you've reminded them of the wonder of being alive right now and the magic of it and it's happened in front of them or sometimes you like some of the best magic it happens in your hand doesn't it Union you put something in the audience's hand and they like we got it yeah vehicle who is God so I you know the mystery the magic the Wonder happens in their own flesh somewhere and so you are creating this through through lies and deceit you're creating the truth of of this moment of wonder inside them and absolutely it is well worth the deceit and the and the lie for sure because otherwise we're in in quite a wonderful world but we can often forget it and you know it's the point of art and magic magic is a is a when well done when brilliantly done is an art like any other it's the purpose of art to remind us that we're alive and you all have hit that moment from many audiences and your performances will have hit that moment for you when you've gone wow I'm alive right now and they're alive and we're and it's that moment of wonder it connects us that's the thing it connects us as human beings so it's important this word entertainment because you mentioned it back then you know these to entertain and entertain like like the word manipulation and gets a bit of a bad rap or it's just entertainment well entertainment is a beautiful medieval Latin word from medieval French Latin entre tenir which simply means to hold together it simply means to connect that we hold the idea together when you truly entertain me when you entertain me and we as the audience are entertained we hold together we we have the same idea the same moment of wonder all together and suddenly we go we're not alone with where we have others like us it is not a lonely world that's an extraordinary thing to be able to do and and all great artists entertain that's what they do they they hold they create this moment where we all hold together as social mammals as human beings and we sit and we suddenly go it's not just me there'd be a release of us that is beautifully said I've never heard that explained that way but that's beautifully said mark I know that you you are on a little bit of a time crunch and so I want to kind of ask you this one question I want to make sure I didn't ask this because one you know you're highly successful you know that you've consulted business leaders of Fortune 500 companies you know presidents and you know you know actors I mean you've made a huge influence in people's lives and you're really like the number one in your field but I think there is a perhaps a misconception that successful people don't exceed they don't have any failures or they don't have any setbacks do you have a particular failure an embarrassment that maybe was catastrophic for you but it you turned it around or you you thought of it in in a better wake do you have something yeah yeah for sure so so the biggest one is I'm Dyslexic and I can't read or write very very well yeah so so and so that calls me huge amounts of failures at school when I was kid I mean just abject failures the ability to to be in certain areas are utterly useless I mean just completely so not even below average like below the very lowest possible so so yeah I've experienced very much what it's what it's like to to experience that you absolutely are a complete failure at something and that's been a strong influence on my life and and and and has caused me like many other dyslexic stuff either ways of getting places some some sneaky ways of getting around around stuff we're good you know dyslexics are good at coming up with cheats with ways of getting around stuff with with novel and interesting solutions to get to the place that others naturally are in you know and because we find these novel ways sometimes we find that we suddenly excel in that area because the the cheat the sneak is is actually innovative it's it's nobody's thought of doing it that way before so a lot of my innovation comes from me finding the sneaky ways of getting stuff done because I can't do them in the way that other people would often do you know I did not know that about you and that's I you know I know that there are some amazing people who have done amazing things who have dyslexia and they've said very much the same thing it has actually kind of forced them to think about the world and accomplishing things in a different manner so yeah yeah so there's so so not only do we find innovative ways of getting stuff done but just the way our mind is is structured and the brain is is you know hacked together just means that we actually experience the world in quite a different way as well so not only do we find sneaky ways but we're looking at it differently as well in the first place so you know my my advice to anybody is you know if you are out there and you're dyslexic keep going keep it up nice and and if you if you need solutions for whatever you're doing and you haven't got one yet don't find a dyslexic anybody like anybody who's dyslexic and just go look here's the problem guarantee they'll come up with something they might not come up with a good solution but they'll come up with something and and it will be different from what you've already thought of it maybe it's worth you know it's worth a go yeah always worth ago ask a dyslexic that's good advice that's a good advice mark we're I want to ask you a few rapid-fire fun questions just so we get to know a little bit about you if you were to put a message say on a billboard that you think is important what would that be yeah so I think it would be you know something I just intimated back there which was which will stick at it keep going stick at it you know keep on going many of the leaders that I've worked with who've been extraordinary in what they've managed to achieve and I've always asked you know so have you managed this what what have you done what have you how did you get you know and this is from people who've created extraordinary businesses and innovations and and become literally world leaders literally running countries every one of them basically says you just stay with it you just keep on going you just don't give up you keep on going you fail and you keep on going and keep on going and keep on going and partly because other people will drop out they don't have the staying power and you all that doesn't mean you're the best it's just you didn't give up it's hard that's really hard it's really hard advice to take but at least it's simple it's simple but you know what it's good advice it's really good advice I mean that's what you know I tell my kids just stick at it give me a key pond at it and you will you'll find a breakthrough you know yeah well that's it you know I often talk to people about the break they go you know when I'm gonna get my break you know when will it break for me it's like okay so you take both ends of the stick and you keep on pushing composure that's a good washing and eventually yeah it breaks but it's really hard work and there's points where you're just going that's a really wet been who stake it's not gonna fall I'm doing bending this thing I know it will start to crack and snap at some point you gotta keep got to keep at it that is great whoo-hoo Dead or Alive if would you like to have dinner with oh um just just my friends and and immediately mediate family just the people actually who I who I actually constantly have dinner with well that's an honest answer the first answer yeah I wouldn't you know yeah who wants chill round I mean get very drunk he'd be beef fun but ultimately ultimately no just just just you know my my wife Tracy and the kids and all our best friends you know it wouldn't be a massive a massive crowd straightforward as I was expecting something crazy but that's nothing nothing crazy for it I've had it I've had dinner with a lot of extraordinary people I guess you have it's good once once is good yeah another tears off after a while but but after that I think you know they either become your friends or they don't and and I'd rather spend the time with the with the friends I am a hundred percent with you they're 100 percent what what are your hobbies like what do you do when you know you're not out teaching what's the day in you know what's the fun side of you yeah so so I work a lot so there's not a lot of a lot of time but here's what I do do I love to cook love to cook and any particular cuisine or all kinds all kinds all kinds especially you know so different cuisines different Keeks I'll concentrate on a technique for a bit I might concentrate on a on a cuisine and try and get that right now obviously you know my the major thing I love I love to cook being being English born in England like like I know yourself yeah obviously you know I love cooking a curry you know so you are you love Indian food but my wife is the best cook ever I'm sure well people's people's wives always are no no no no I'm actually very like I I don't say it but I've had you know eating Indian cuisine different places yeah but and I say it with true honesty she's probably gonna watch this this anyway so it's not I'm not getting any brownie points but she is I think a very gifted gifted chef like she really knows what she's doing I'm now thinking of making a journey up to your and of you know what you're always welcome she you know she makes a group checkin curry and with yeah with beer I mean I tell you there's nothing better than that yeah it's like IIIi was actually a talk last last week Madhur Jaffrey came to mm-hmm Toronto yeah so matter Jeffrey's like a big hero of mine just in terms of cooking I mean she she she revolutionized cooking certainly in the UK certainly turning people on to more of the reality of and the hugeness of Indian cuisine rather than just you know most people's appreciation in in the UK a good appreciation really Bangladeshi versions of korean of course korean dove an english you know idea you know of it was the british idea of it I mean great fantastic I mean again without Indian without that influence just British food would be terrible well the national food of England is Indian food yeah right salutes is really you know quite well surprising well not surprising if you've eaten Indian good food so you know sometimes I'll go to a restaurant or something would you order you don't want that butter chicken I said no I totally know what it's gonna be like it's it's not you know when you've had the best yeah you just can't settle for for certain dishes and so that's awesome that's also yeah yeah you know you I you there's an open invitation for you to come to my house anytime fantastic it you and your wife bring your kids yeah I mean how old are your children so 13 and 11 so Lex my son is about to turn he'll be 14 in October and Stella my daughter just and 11 well you know that literally about the same age it's my kids and my son is a big soccer player my daughter's 13 you know a few guys bring the family and we'll definitely get bread yarding up there for that for your wife's cooking and for and for hanging out for sure well you know what we do these big parties and and people are always asking when can I come to your house for dinner and kind of you know it's like I said I got a check with my wife but she loves entertaining she loves the Karev's of ours have a Diwali party oh yes yes how it's so good like it's the highlight of the year for me I go round because you could imagine I mean it's just there's you know the food is incredible and you know hospitality is amazing and and I go around and I every time I go this is that this is the highlight of my my years fantastic to be here and I don't think they can ever quite believe it they think you've got to be making this up and I'm gonna know I'm people it's like the best party of the year I love good food and yeah that's us that's the weakness of mine so I am a hundred percent with you yeah mark you know I really appreciate the time that you took today I would love to have you come back all the future because there's so much to learn from you still like I mean we were just grazing the surface for sure I'm gonna put a link to the books that you have produced and if anybody wants to get a hold of mark they they can go to your website or truth plain calm truth plain calm go find me there for sure and it's plain as in PL a n e that's right plain as in PLA and E yeah yeah mm truth truth played calm or one word do you have an ask from our audience or any speakers that might be listening you know that I mean yeah just got one ask which is going get that training that I gave you the URL to fit ly forward slash winning winning keno I've got no other ask than that which is go and go and see what I've produced for people just like you there if you have people who you think it would be useful for give them the URL if I'm giving you this it's because you can distribute it and and the trainings out there for you to take advantage of so the only thing I want is go and take advantage and tarif of that train is free free so go and take advantage of it it's the training that I give to to an audience when they've seen me deliver a keynote and because you know we've spent such a long time talking together for you and the audience here you know it's it's like you've you've been in the keynote and so you know though we were you know making this one up as we went along so go and get there go and get the training you're very very welcome to it that's that's my only ask and if you enjoy that and you've enjoyed this of course link in with me you'll find me at LinkedIn Mark Bowden you'll find me on YouTube Mark Bowden you'll find me on Twitter at truth plane go to the website you know hunt me down track me down ask me questions I'm always and watch his TED talk I mean sure I saw your TED talk again last night just to and not only is educational but you're a very funny man I mean that kid is a it was that's one of the best TED talks I've ever seen yeah mark again thank you so much this was like such a great honor and I just had a blast and I hoped we'll connect again soon it's been a great interview thanks very much for having me thanks for your great questions and and for sure any time you want to do this again I'm open to it you know where to find me thank you Mark

Channel: The Introverted Doctor

Views: 9,229

Rating: 4.980392 out of 5

Keywords: mark bowden body language myths, body language, mark bowden, winning body language, language, body language expert

Id: Fx4cYfDDtD8

Length: 79min 9sec (4749 seconds)

Published: Fri Jun 28 2019