How to Read Body Language with Mark Bowden of The Behavior Panel | Body Language Podcast Episode 11

all right now it takes about a minute or so for everybody to come in so i have to start pitching myself immediately oh yeah folks please subscribe we get to meet amazing people like mark bowden and last week we had scott rouse so this is like a one-two punch completely we've had chase hughes on and i'm also doing some video interviews i have the actual guys that um the series narcos covered coming up i'm interviewing them this weekend it'll be a video interview i had henrik fexius who is known as the darren brown of sweden and that video is actually on the channel right now so everybody please subscribe check it out there's so much good stuff coming you have no idea but today we have mark mark bowden truth plane he is you are the number one body language expert in the world according to global gurus so so just to be really specific about that yes i i think i don't know maybe maybe joe navarro has been number one twice uh certainly i have certainly that's kind of where that comes from is i've been consecutively number one though those rankings kind of sure sure who knows how they do that ranking and and quite honestly how accurate it is but but when i'm number one i think it's very accurate and when i'm not number one i don't know whether they've quite got it right you know well i could yeah i can understand that i can definitely understand that and you know what um with scott rouse we opened it by asking a very important question of the time so i want to use that same question and ask it here have you been watching tiger king so so people have gone crazy for tiger king haven't they they've kind of gone i'm mad for it and i i started watching that uh with with with tracy and we got i don't know i think we got through an episode another one and we were like what's all the fuss about yeah obviously it's mad as a box of frogs because it's it's people who keep many many large wild animals and i've known her i i've known uh a bunch of people who keep big cats and yeah they're mad as a box of frogs um is why people are so amazed by it they're like yeah and he's got wild cats and he carries guns and and it's well yeah yeah what can i help you obviously i'm like freedom roy and then and then and then sometimes they were going have you not been to that area of the states i mean that's just the opening that's just an opening gambit for oddness that's just that's just if you think that's the cutting edge that's the baseline that's the baseline that's not [Laughter] so so we stopped watching it because it because you know i've hung around a lot of performers and circus and and all of that stuff and it you know it's that kind of it's the thing of like well he's got big cats and he does magic yes yes of course of course of course because magicians many of them have animals you know well they're a magician and they've got a twin brother yeah that's how they yeah that's how they were over there and then they're over here of course well they're a magician and they're married to twins yes that's how you cut them in half so good point so in in the uh episode or two that you've seen did you get to see when they asked the online activist whether or not she killed her husband oh no i didn't see that didn't say oh bummer okay well scott implied that uh she demonstrated guilty knowledge and i just wanted to get your take on that sure so so well so i've not seen it but but if we critically think that um uh did she kill her husband or at being asked does she fantasize about that well he's gone and and then you know herself doing that and then i mean you know who knows i don't know you do who knows i'd have to ask her i have probably you have to get that all right so folks i see that we've started to get a few people rolling in this is all about you guys so please ask any questions you have and i will try to keep the ball rolling in the middle one thing i want to talk about though is what we're doing now we're having to communicate over video that i do think adds extra challenges in both projecting and in reading body language so can we talk about that for a minute one you showed a trick about how you can project good spirit if you will while you're talking can we start with that yeah sure uh so what i'm doing in this particular conversation because it's quite a lot of neural load because there's not only the image of me that obviously i kind of get obsessed by because it's a mirror and and my brain keeps going look it's you it's you you're you're you're here and and you're there as well look you can you can see you moving all the time in real life you very rarely have conversations with other people while looking at yourself in the mirror so this is totally weird for the brain and then there's there's you and they and you're in really good high definition detail so so at the same time as they're being me obsessed with me there's there's you over here and me trying to work out unconsciously or consciously like what's what's going on with him what's his feeling and intention uh around this and then there's the realization that i will contact you and the audience through the lens up up here so i only really get good eye contact with you if i'm there and and now i'm feeling all weird because i want to look at me and and you but i've got to look up here to really make a good connection with you and the audience so why so it's tricky and so what i do is i get this little smiley post-it note here and i stick it behind just behind the uh the lens there so it tries to attract my attention up and you've got that clear smiley signal there which when you look at it it's very difficult for you not to mirror that and start doing that that duchenne smile there's also as you were saying earlier there's this guy here this guy sent me a little sticker of himself and said put that up there as well it's like just like really good that's trendy with the best of them absolutely so he's so why not he's up there maybe by the end of all this i'll have a little family of people out there hopefully you don't have any of me right i'm trying to you know bring my attention up here so we feel more connected so you get the sense and your audience get the sense that i'm truly getting eye contact with you because that will you know raise your levels of oxytocin your sense of optimism around me and this discussion uh you know and and also a sense of the fuzzying of boundaries of our of yourself so you will feel like you're more like me when i give you on eye contact so the science goes though this is cool you're on the receiving end doing this how would you propose doing it on the presentation and like me i would love to say that i'm brilliant and these questions just flow off the top of my head because of my big brain but no i have notes and so i i need to actually kind of look at the notes and then look at your reactions and things like that so how would you recommend i do that when if i'm looking at the camera i'm drifting off yeah so so do you see how i think you've put your notes down down here yes i actually have them right above your face so i can flash and still be looking at you while i'm looking at the notes to try to not i don't want to be looking over here going okay flip the screen back and forth you don't see it but i'll just literally put it right over your face so i'm looking right right so so so and i'm not going to get into the reality or not of i accessing queues but let's just say nlp let's just let let's just say that that it's true to say that eyes go into you know go into various um dimensions um uh when they they they might be having a certain thought okay let's just say that sure um well when your head tilts down as it seems to when you grab some of your notes i i what i start to go is i go oh is he concerned his head just went down is he concerned for some reason that's my instinct around that and and i could um counter measure that with with some critical thinking around that here's where i put my notes i've put them up there are they physical written notes yeah yeah look okay they're on my light up up here so that when i go and grab a thought or a note my eyes go off and up which may well instinctively trigger the audience with more sense of ah he's up and he's thinking he's like so maybe i need a little footstool because that lines me at the camera yeah okay well you just need some kind of oh you know another way of of doing it um look my this has got all one of my son's projects on it but it's a big like you can see it's a big uh can you see it yeah yeah it's a kind of bristol but what we call bristol board thing right and i could just pop that uh on a table behind that and that would mean that my eyes would be able to get content from all around here rather than it look what seems where i'd normally put notes is down down here so look what happens if i do what i normally do in real life uh with you so only you know right right so so what the camera does is creates a different optic whereby what you do in real life might not show as what you hoped it would show right and so you have to create a different um well a different setup which will trigger your audience into feeling like it's a usual reality you do something inauthentic or be more authentic to be more authentic but you're you're being you you know that makes that makes total sense and cracks me up because all of that i i hate editing myself in video too because i'm going i need to enunciate more because my lips don't move now i understand why i had a deaf student one time who had to have an interpreter because he couldn't read my lips right well look you've got you've got a a beautiful studio mic there really close up sure and yeah and so that's designed to be at a really low level with a with probably a couple of preamps um so that it picks up kind of zero background noise but it means that you have to get as i'm going to do with mine get get super close to it here and yeah intimate with it so that gives it that intimate voice what i've done here is i've got here the kind of mic that you have on a lectern and that kind of yeah it's um there we go and what it what that does is it takes a cone of sound here and some room noise too though and to room noise too but it means that i'm talking with more of a a conversational in in social space uh voice rather than my voice that i'd use with you if i was in intimate space with you which is that one that one there because if we you know have the whole conversation like this uh it'll be after a while exactly and that's what happens you know when you get see people get up to the lectern and start doing their speech they they they don't realize that it will pick up their social voice and so what they do is they start doing uh intimate voice here and the whole audience falls asleep because it's like they're being read some kind of bedtime story well good news we have a question in here that's great gavin stone hi erica mark mark what inspired you to learn about nonverbal communication when you first started out and where does your inspiration come from today yeah so so i got really interested in in movement uh as a kid and and and animal movement especially aquatic animals i was i just loved going to the seaside british seaside and getting really cold in the rock pools and getting out starfish and crabs and and and i love their movement i also love the movement of water as well and light on water so so i started getting really obsessed with movement out of you know are you dealing about this uh i did study i studied i i studied performing arts so uh initially so so yeah i got a degree in dance and drama and and uh music but my obsession is with movement my obsession is with movement and how movement triggers can trigger patterns of thought or perception in people probably more importantly so i was interested in how things move and so that got me obviously into darwin and obviously darwin is one of the first writer on body language you know it starts with starts with darwin and then it goes to you know uh well some french biologists as well at the time and dutch and duchenne and and and then you kind of get to desmond morris and desmond morris um put out a book um naked ape and people watching um and i think for many of us you know i think joe joe navarro talks about it a lot you know always going back to desmond morris's work around looking at human behavior from that um kind of animal lens and and that uh evolutionary lens so i got into it through that and through the idea of influence and persuasion around how can you uh order movement and order the visual image especially the the the moving visual image in a way that you can start to predict what humans will do around that moving imagery i don't know if that makes any sense but what i find fascinating is what i find fascinating is that you come from the arts whereas many many many of the body language people essentially come from law enforcement yeah so so you you meet a lot of those but then you know scott has scott rouse has a uh production background and and um you know when you talk to joe navarro yeah if he's the fbi and so you you'd kind of go okay so bureaucrat federal bureaucrat yeah and then but but ultimately all of these people uh you know vanessa van edwards janine driver you know all of them are obsessed with people they're obsessed with humans they're interested in how humans get along with each other and how you can create less friction around that so it it's it's it's kind of interesting where people have come from but ultimately it's more interesting for me where they are oh sure because because all the people that i really enjoy in that area you know alan pisa allen and barbara pease as well all they're interested in is how people get along that's all the background is not it's maybe the background may have given them an interesting view or some some insights or some techniques or some experiences that other people have got but everybody's in the same position of just going well how would we make this easier this is quite difficult getting along like can we make this a bit easier yeah henrik aphexius actually talked about that he got into it because he suffered very much as a kid socially and he was like how do i get to talk to all these other people and actually get to hang out in the crowd welcome to the world of magicians not unusual not unusual that's not like that that's you know and then they start collecting tigers okay yeah okay well yeah stop stops uh-oh and chase lives near me and then rabbit there's tigers so yeah so look there there will be some you know with all of this there's some you tend to see some patterns but again i'm not so interested in where people have come from what interests me is where they are right now and what they're wanting to do with with that what they're interested in and and it comes down to me about are they being helpful is what they're doing helpful is it helping anybody because some of it is interesting but so what that's really interesting but what can i do with that what can i do with that today that would make my life easier because it's a hard day today so so can i make can i make it easier do you think i'm interested do you and scott um brought this up to you um do you hang out with other body language people yeah yeah as much as possible it's tricky because there aren't many of us so we're we're breed and and and we're a little bit scattered um and so it's not like we all live in one town it's not like you know scots in nashville but it's not like most of us are you know there's no capital of the of the body language world um so um so yeah sometimes we you know by accident or by or by arrangement uh we can get together um we've got we've got some great uh you eric have probably got more of us together than in a collection you're like a collector you're like uh it's gonna start with you it's gonna start with body language experts and then it's gonna go to big cats oh my goodness they're big enough i have a twenty-five yeah already big enough that's right you're already there yeah already we're done already but um but yeah we like to we you know i know we enjoy it when we when we bump into each other or meet up it's just great great fun yeah what do you guys do when you're together uh do you do you like scott and just sit there looking at people at other tables and go ah let me see it's their first date and uh they're this far in the meal and what's gonna happen oh you know i last time i it's just nice hanging out and chatting and just you know being with you know many cases people who you you really enjoy their work or you know they've been an inspiration to you or they've they've really helped with the way you're thinking uh for me that's what i really enjoy i'm not i'm not a massive like sit and watch people and go i think this is happening and this is again that doesn't that's interesting um but the real help that i try and give people is what they would do in order to influence and persuade what they would do to trigger other behaviors in others i'm not saying watching people is watching people is super interesting it's just not where where i'm my obsession goes and my obsession is also how to try and think differently about this so so what i love to do is sit down with with with with scott or chase or joe or you know uh you know talk to alan or you know janine you know yeah and and and go what are you thinking about this and like have some kind of conversation with them that's what that's what i like what have you found out lately that you had wrong what have i found out lately that i've had wrong hmm i'm stuck for anything i'm stuck but i've had wrong or that you were even about i know scott brought up there's some question whether miriam is actually as strong or apparent there are some new studies out things like that i just was curious because especially when you talk to other experts you know they may point things out to you that you don't see or vice versa i'm pretty circumspect so i'm trying so i'm like most of the time like well i don't know i don't know you know part of my ability is to be able to go people go you know what's this and what's this like i don't know like we'd have to find out don't you want to find out how valuable is it part of it is part of the value that i bring is the thinking around it is to cause people to go that's that's that would be interesting to find out like it's the thing of like like what you want to know like is it is the woman in the video lying about killing her like i don't know what do you want to know what's it to you that's what that's what's interesting is like whoa if you knew how would that make your life any better or or easier or like why do you want to know so i would kind of go like what are you trying to avoid looking at that like what are you avoiding like why why spend your time trying to work out is the woman like who like that you're worried somebody's lying but you've projected that onto a woman in a that you'll never meet most likely and will have no effect on you so who you are actually who is she for you like who is the liar in your life that you're actually worried about that's what interests me that's what really interests me like who is she being for you that causes you to go home i knew she was like that's that's what interests me so i spend a lot of my time going i just don't know people say you know look at this image look at this film what's happening here and it's like why do you want to know why is this important to you and if we can find what really matters about this then we could think about looking at you know the truth and lies of what's going on i always thought you like to play that's just the impression that i've always gotten from you that you're really really playful and you really seem to project more than read or at least you're not talking about your reading and i don't know if you're mirroring or or what you're doing but in general you're very much larger than life many of the other ones they're reading and they're kind of like hmm i mean definitely what's that and you're kind of playing and kind of projecting which makes you an interesting combination is that deliberate or natural well you know i'm trying to educate so so if you're an educator you've got to be the most interesting thing in the room because there's something else to do there's always there's always the opportunity not to learn there's always the opportunity not to change not changing is so much easier than changing not knowing something new is so much easier than knowing something new and so if you want to help people in their lives have a little less friction in it when it comes to the human relationships or the ones that are really important they're maybe going to have to learn something and and and you're going to help educate them and therefore you've got to be interesting so i'm i'm trying to be helpful and interesting now you know if you if if if you lived with me uh you would not get this because this would be super annoying 24 7. maybe this would be a little oh man you'd be like you'd be after two hours you'd be can you shut the hell up mark have you taken your medication today right exactly exactly not nearly enough of it so so this is a um this is my job welcome to work welcome to work um it's um yeah it has some performance elements to it certainly it has some performance elements to it but the reason it has those performance elements is not for the sake of performance it's not for the sake of hey look at me it's for the sake of i want to help you change i want to help stuff get easier for you and and i know you will try and push back at me for that help so i've got to engage you and take you on this trickier journey so that's where you that's what you get and i think i've asked this of you and um tracy before but what is it that made you shift from being a pure performer because you very much are from the performance world and now you seem to be almost trying not to and trying to strictly educate using performance elements but you seem to be very very focused on that like you're not planning to open a play uh next week oh no chance what caused that shift because it wouldn't be helpful it wouldn't help it's not going to help anybody something it's not going to help anybody i i you know i i i gave all the help i could that way did it gave all the help i could so you're picking up part of it essentially no no it's it's um i would suggest since i've been focused on on trying to help people through this medium through educating people about human behavior and body language i've had more effect than with doing doing it through film or tv or or or theater or you know whatever stunt we would put on in order to engage people and and and change them uh i i would still say i'm i'm um i would still call myself an artist because i because ultimately what i'm trying to do is remind people that they're alive and and that for me is the function of art to remind people that they're alive and the way i'm trying to remind them that they're alive is to remind them that they have a physical body in a physical world and it has a physical effect on others and that has a psychological effect on others which again there's a physical effect but this is i'm trying to remind them of the physical world that they're in rather than the esoteric or spiritual or or thought world that they might be in um but i'm not doing that through making a film or a tv show or performing other people's work i'm just doing my own so this fulfills you uh no i would rather not if i could not do this i then i i would you know i have no need to i've no need to like no need to be here like this is great eric but but if i could avoid this i would okay fair enough yeah if i could avoid it i absolutely would if i could avoid going in front of large audiences or making videos or whatever i would but this is the best way to get the help to other people so i do it if there was another way that was easier i would do that it was easier and as effective or more effective i would do that at the moment uh educating people through live talks and making videos and doing interviews like this and making money at the same time so you know i can have family and nice place to live and certain elements of comfort um this is the way to do it so i do this well let's visit that a little bit because um i'm guessing your public performances are down at the moment yeah yeah yeah well i mean um they are they are down in terms of showing up live in front of human beings which is which is a great way to learn this stuff um simply because people have heard about body language they've thought about it a bit and you know they've maybe read a few books or one or none or certainly you know tapped on some internet stuff and got some some ideas from that but when they see somebody who has an expertise in being able to educate them about it and do it live in a room and they suddenly get hit by the feelings that i'm able to trigger in them live they suddenly go wow that's really powerful that's really powerful he can he can change my feelings about the same thing the same numbers or the same object or product or service or idea he can change my perception of it simply by the body language that he's putting around it and change it radically and instantly and it's not a and it doesn't happen in the um the clever part of my head it's happening in my instinct and so i know what he's doing but i can't counter measure it because it's happening to my instinct so once they get that suddenly they well they're reminded that they're alive suddenly they wake up they go whoa look look i've i can do that i've got i've got all the stuff that he's got he just showed me something super simple i can do that or not do it it's my choice it's my choice now to influence and persuade others into a more positive mindset or negative mindset i don't have to do it by accident some of my life now doesn't have to be an accident i can do it on purpose so that's down right now now here's what's left is is i'm now doing this which is and i'm doing this because it's helpful i'm doing now uh webinars live again live with people to go look you're now digitally contacting uh you're leading your your teams you're influencing and persuading people because you want to sell or you want to help them and you're doing it by this medium and this medium is live but it plays all kinds of tricks on your mind and it's tough and the neural load is massive on it so here's the tools and techniques to do this really well so when so so you can learn the aesthetic of this not the anaesthetic of it because if you don't know the aesthetic of this it doesn't remind you that you're alive you understand the anaesthetic of it it sends you to sleep this is a medium that will switch you off and remind you that you're asleep if it can so once you learn the aesthetic of this you become alive again that's what i'm doing and your film background has to really help because you already know about cheating i know the aesthetic like film isn't new lumiere brothers came up with it a long long time ago so so once you know the major population is now suddenly everybody's going wow zoom like i can i can have you know what has to happen for innovation to catch on you usually have to have like a 10 times um profitability on on the on the on how much it's costing to do it the current um health crisis has instantly knocked us into everybody using this innovation whereas a few of us even in business with were just using this yeah you you you're one of them like you you know you're early to this you've been doing this a long time and now suddenly everybody's going god i can start broadcasting on it's like yeah so this has been going on a while and just so you know people were doing moving pictures right back in the days of the lumiere brothers and they were working out how this works and how this affects human beings yeah lenny writing style worked out how do we how do we make a film that will get a mass movement going i mean it's like we're not new to the game on this but most people on the planet are and it wouldn't take long for you to catch up you just need to listen to some experts who've really studied this so it's not really i wouldn't say look you know you've got a performance background and there's so many people with a performance background sure they don't know what i know because they haven't thought about it they're not concerned about it they wanted to be on stage or in front of a camera or that wasn't my thing i wanted to influence and persuade people i was interested in how to trigger them with with a set response not can i be on stage and people go wow mark you were you were great i have no concern for that whatsoever what i'm interested in is were you great did you have a great time have you got something out of this so yeah my performance background i think um there are lots of like if you need somebody with a performance background uh there's plenty out there they aren't going to work at the moment so everybody's at home yeah everybody's at home i'm wondering they won't know what i know i'm curious though your thoughts because i see this as possibly having a permanent effect on keynotes and conferences i could be wrong but you know it takes about a month of repeated exposure to become a habit and i see a lot of things that would be a normal habit right now in the spring that suddenly people can't do and they may be establishing new habits yeah so you'd think that would happen but then here's what's actually going to happen so we set up this habit of all right all talks all keynotes are now going to be done like this great so we've set up this habit then here's what happens somebody with a product or a service or an idea they go you know what i'm going to get everybody together in a live group and what happens they sell so much more they they engage their audience so much more they get a movement going that everybody on video can't get off the ground and suddenly everybody realizes oh yeah human beings have been getting together social groups for millennia and there's a reason and there is no technology that will not replace it but can compete with it okay now if if it so happens that that from now this point on the human race um are never going to be able to get face to face ever again other than in our small family units if that's an actual fact then live will not happen and therefore there is no competition for this true but just that in the competition live will wipe the floor with this it's like you imagine you imagine you imagine listen you imagine you imagine this right your audience how they're seeing this now you imagine this in the room with you right now you imagine this actually leaning over and touching you right now touching your touching the side of your shoulder or not today it's going it's going to be okay look i can say to you you know what's going to be okay imagine me live reaching over gently touching with the palm of my hand the side of your shoulder and going you know it's going to be okay who wins i win the live version of me wins every time and i will you know let's once it once it's it's back again i'm uh i'm going live well i hope you do yeah i mean i missed you last time you came to town here yeah yeah what town are you in uh i live in uh hampton but i live in the same area as chase oh okay well look next time yeah definitely yeah yeah yeah yeah for sure all right well now let's go ahead and look at that because you just said it's going to be okay and all that and i think in the current circumstances what can we do or how can we express or hold ourselves to make people around us feel calm because there is a certain level of nervousness being experienced by a good majority of people i'm not going to say everybody or that but it is kind of uncertain times we really don't know what is going to happen what's going on is it safe is it not how how can we be helpful yeah a really good question how can we be helpful because because i can't i can't tell you to be calm and i can't you know all i can do and i think the best thing most helpful thing that people can do is just say how you doing tell me about it how are you doing yeah and listen and then accept how they're doing because it's very easy if i say to you like how you're doing and you start telling me it's like you know whatever it is i'm a little anxious about this or this it's very easy for me to pick up on that anxiety um mirror that anxiety not like the feeling that it gives me and then say to you you know what eric just calm down don't worry and why am i saying that because i can't handle mirroring you i can't handle your pain makes too painful for me so what i've got to be able to do is say hey how are you doing listen to that and accept that even though and and and sit in the in the sometimes in the pain of me watching your struggle how do you work through that yourself to maintain the pain that you've inherited sure you just go you just go listen just listen just listen just not just accept just stay open you do the body language of acceptance you do you you have a mantra in your head trying to do the acceptance so i will say things in my head like okay that's right yes exactly and i might even say them back to you yeah i'll say okay that's right yeah exactly so instead of going eating that nice so i saw some stuff on the news the other day it was saying that that wasn't there that wasn't the case that it wasn't no and uh is that helpful that might be might be accurate from my point of view because maybe the news item was accurate i don't know made me feel better and now because you're telling me about your struggle your pain your anxiety is triggering it in me and i don't like that so i want to shut that down and i'll shut that down by trying to be helpful telling you it's going to be okay rather than listening to you saying you're worried that it isn't going to be okay and me going i totally get that i totally get it's very worrying for you right now i absolutely get that is that a good thing should we say that again oh you see i was just thinking um uh henrik fexies we were talking about that a little bit too he calls it a um i guess you call it a verbal aikido after a fashion but all the way up to somebody being angry or enraged to do the same kind of reaction like i you know if i were you i totally feel that same way uh no so it's not that it um it's not that pattern no okay um no it isn't that pattern uh that that pattern is a kind of a slight it's one of diltz's sleight of mouths which which you know sounds like something that it isn't what i'm um what i'm actually saying is i accept you i accept the fee i don't have to have them i don't have them i can disagree i can go i totally get what you're saying there i disagree yeah so so but what you hear first of all is me dealing with i've got to accept where you're at right now that's right so from my point of view it is different from what what what you were saying uh before which is if i if i were you right well i liked that nuance um that was kind of uh as he put it like a last resort but like if somebody's really um upset and i i've worry and anger aren't exactly the same thing necessarily you know i could have taken it a little bit too far over but i like to tie things together and and try to look into nuance and how are things different or how are they the same so that was kind of like a a way of i like sleight of mouth that's a cool term understanding especially if it's somebody who you absolutely cannot relate to in any way i've had negotiators on who are you know they're talking to a predator for example well it's very difficult to relate to a predator for most of us yeah yeah yeah so but what you can do is accept what they're saying but i don't need to relate to that so i can i can accept you know you can accept that they are angry with a group because that group or that person has disrespected them i can accept that that that is it's not the way i would have gone but i accept that that that's the way that you've gone so so it does um so that so what we're trying to do here is is differentiate between uh emotional empathy and cognitive empathy in emotional empathy uh i feel the things that you feel okay and and and what some of those slights of mouths are trying to do is is pretend that you feel the things that they feel so if i so if i were you i i would have felt angry as well what you're trying to do is trick the person into going i'm feeling angry right now now the the issue with that is is you just did that sleight of mouth on yourself and when fairness like that though if you literally were that other person you would be there oh i understand the slight about that i understand i understand this light of yeah i know i understand the slight of just as if i were if i were a dog i would bark i totally get it but but understand it's tricky enough that you could trick yourself okay yeah so so um so you you you would potentially you have an option you have a strong possibility there of of dropping into emotional empathy which may not be useful yeah so if i were you i'd be angry right now as well well you just did an embedded instruction on yourself angry i'm angry right now um you've also probably increased their anger and escalated that and when they see that that um that flash of anger when you say if i was you i'd be angry right now when they see that they'll escalate that as well so now so now and that that may be what you're trying to do or not what you're trying to do but you better be in control of that you better know what you're doing what i'm talking about here is so there's there's emotional empathy and there's cognitive empathy and cognitive empathy is when you accept the emotion the feeling the intention that somebody has but you do not have it yourself in fact you can have the contrary or you can have a cognitive overview of the whole situation but you're not going to enter into the feeling and this often works when people are in pain because uh we we t we often when somebody's in pain one of the things we do as well or we or stress whatever anxiety we try and out pain out anxiety out stress them so they're like i'm really worried about actually i know i am as well uh yeah because i got really worried yesterday blah blah then they're like well yeah because i got worried today and it was yeah but i got worried at 7.5 yeah but i got worried at an eight yeah but i it's not as bad as last year because i worried at a nine last year and yeah i'm getting worried at 10 right now oh i'm at 11. it's like suddenly there's a competition for who can be a most emotionally engaged and that can be really fun the for the for the body and the mind but it's not sometimes that helpful anyway i hope that makes the differentiation between positive and emotional work so you said it again it sounds a little like paul bloom's work tell me about it i don't i don't know paul look against empathy and essentially it's oh empathy is a blind spot and his premises for example if you really want people to feel bad show one little girl starving if you show a thousand people starving this just it's a statistic people just don't feel it but we are wired to where we'll suddenly care more about that one one kid versus like an entire village or or actually if you want if you want to raise the most money a starving puppy would work better sure sure fish are kid it's not my kid and i think um cognitive empathy i think he just calls sympathy like that's a step away you you can uh so technically speaking in in sympathy um would denote a similar set of behaviors okay um whereas in empathy uh a similar set of feelings okay to be super technical perfect and good news huh then you've got a nerd on the line oh hey i i'm thrilled to have nerds on the line by the way that's something i find in common with with at least scott and chase and i'm going to say you probably is you're all body language nerds oh yeah yeah that's what i first loved about uh about um uh scott so um uh we were writing uh started writing truth and lies and i'd seen scott's um uh ted talk uh tedx talk a while a while back and so i you know sent a message to him going uh you know would you write i love your talk and would you you know write a little bit of a uh chapter for me a little bit of an insert for me because i want to get you know lots of people involved in in this and um he came back and he was you know kind of shooting me lots of um uh uh papers and stuff i was like i was like where the hell did you get this one from the collection and you should look at this and i went wow this guy's like totally off the charts and and then i said well would you would you be a expert reader editor on this was like yeah fantastic so um yeah he's he's uh super nerdy doesn't look like it or act like but he's got i don't know he's got some seller full of documents somewhere he's like hey chase hughes you probably got big cats as well oh you got big cats well chase jesus is bad or worse i mean definitely has big cats definitely i'm i'm sure of it because i mean he doesn't go just find the gl esther brooks books he goes and gets rights to dig through the guy's notes yes yeah well i was telling him recently that i uh one of the first videos i saw of him because he'd not got a huge amount online and uh was that and i was like yeah this guy's totally totally gone big cat he's this is the new meme big cat you should get t-shirts turned up at a library and he's what do you say he said you know i i shifted through you know x amount of cubic feet of documents i was like what what it's a new measurement you know i maybe look through a few pages of something he's like i'm going through cubic feet of document all right good luck mate good luck fill your boots we finally have another question from the audience yeah yeah hi everybody um this is gavin stone i've studied body language influence on and up upper years and love it when it comes to influence chase you seems to favor authority do you think rituals could be as powerful such as infatuation yeah i do um in fact i was talking to chase about this recently because i like i like that he's he's he's kind of honed in on authority and he's gone you know uh and he's picked that now is is um is that accurate is authority the most important one i frankly don't know and i don't really care um what's what's useful is he's created a model that that gives us somewhere to start because if we don't have somewhere to start if we don't say start with authority or infatuation or i don't care where you start but you want to start somewhere so you can explore with some kind of focus and then come back to chase and go chase you've got it all wrong it is an authority it's this or it's that but without starting somewhere with some focus you will be lost because there is so much that you can do the key is is what we'll give you in my what i'm interested in is the economics what will give you the most result for the little the smallest amount of effort i think i think that's right absolutely so jason's going i think it's this and if you hear him talk about it it's a very very compelling um uh argument uh for why and and you know the way he explained it to me was that was the milgram experiment going look if you can get a whole bunch of students to effectively you know get close to you know the idea of killing somebody based on a clipboard and a white coat there's got to be something in it it's pretty it's compelling compelling idea and so that's where he's where in my view that's where he started with that and and and he's got some great techniques around that and and that's the model he's built and and that's what for my mind that's what puts him in the rank of of experts that i'm really interested in because he's got a model he's got an idea and he's willing to go there it is come at it so he's not gonna if you say to him i've got some other ideas he's going to listen so long as you oh yeah long as you go he's here's why like he's not you know he's not necessarily going to die on that hill but he's got a hill he's got a hill which is more than most people have got true i'm usually digging a hole but um what do you think of uh chaldini's seventh principle because he had the six psychological principles of we're getting in to influence and of recent years he's come out with the seventh which is unity and i think there's some real power in that one yeah so what do i think of it well for me as a model um it was always too big a model because i can't remember all of them because because when you go what's his seventh i'm like i can't even remember one two three you know hey i was pulling out my notes like authority okay i can remember that now i've got a way to think uh you know his his look i've got no problem problem with his you know his his um you know influence is a is a great book fantastic book um now how helpful is it as a model uh i i found it interesting but it's tough to to initiate kind of on the spot help with that full model you know i kind of go can we get it down to three and then tell me which one is most important because i gotta i'm in the field so you know um so he's added a seventh call called what did you say unity and essentially it is people who are your kin and a good example of brian ahern his father was a marine in vietnam and as he put it when his father sees another marine from that period his family's irrelevant there's such a strong affiliation and i can i can see that in a lot of ways be it a hobby whatever but you know people have been through thick and thin or perceive it as such even though they've never met each other their circumstances are so locked in with each other i feel like it could be on the same level of authority or even more so yeah so so so from your description there um we're talking let me expand that out and create give you a model which is way too big okay so here's how we bond together values beliefs rituals customs goals concerns and signals i'll do it again values beliefs rituals customs goals concerns and signals that's the the information that comes from that tells me if i'm more likely to survive with you or with that one over there because if i know we hold the same values beliefs because customer signals goals concerns if i know we hold too many you're rattling this off there's more than six years yeah of course it's a it's a it's it's actually it's very very um accurate description of how we get together in groups but it's not very helpful um because you can't remember it so i'm going to give you one values values are what we think is most important yeah it's how we value stuff something is more important than another um my group my groups that i'm affiliated with i hang around mainly with people who think that education is of value there are people on the planet who don't think education is valuable yeah uh i happen to think it's probably one of the if not the most valuable thing i educate people myself i come from a family of educators i live with educators i spend lots of money on education um so so if i see signals from you that tell me you value education my instinct instantly goes i'm gonna be okay with you now that could be true or false that's gonna but but my instinct has to make a judgment and so i'm looking out for people who value what i value there are things that you um things that you will do consciously and unconsciously that will signal signal to me your values beliefs rituals customs goals concerns and signals [Laughter] i'm gonna have to write that down later yeah now um oh so uh i've worked with uh a few marines in my in my time they're extraordinary extraordinary bunch oh yes yeah one of the signals that i always would pick up was the and you can tell i'm not a marine because i don't have those those creases in the shirt you know and they they hadn't you know been in this or for a long time but they still wore those super cr like box fresh yeah my guess is though i never interviewed any of them is that they could see that coming they can see that coming at a distance sure yeah and so they know that one coming at me that one there that's a good one we're gonna be okay i'm gonna be okay that one come in there scruffy old mess and it's kind of i don't know where i am so so um so yeah to that uh seventh element there i don't i don't dispute that and um and uh i get what's he called it again unity unity okay do you like got a book out called unity or something um no it's part of asian he came out with it but it looks like um i forget there's like a po you know what what's me as we as we i don't know i have to look at you yeah awesome so so my guess is you know it's like adding another thing keeping the content going but ultimately what it's describing is something that we've known for a long long time which is we are social mammals well all of it i mean one of these can roll three i think unity probably makes up three or four of the um principles and that's probably why it's stronger you know a bit of liking a bit of um reciprocations automatic with the unity social proof if he's like you what they like you're going to want to like because people you like like anyway so it just goes on from there sure what interests me about it is is is what do we have to see that would trigger us to know there is going to be unity so i would know beforehand before i've even spoken to that person i've already started a narrative that says i'm safer with this person than i am with my own family that's really interesting that's really interesting um and because because if i knew that for an individual if i knew what was the signal i'd have to play to them to get that response that would be powerful it's an interesting thing to consider now to wrap things up because we're on the hour i think that um scott rouse provided a mic drop here scott here we go i'm always afraid chase will dig up milton erickson crush up part of his goal and snort it that diabolical piece of necromancy they have already but folks this is the kind of people we have on this show so please subscribe there's more to come mark thank you so much for coming on great fun thanks for having me thanks for collecting always

Channel: Eric Hunley

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Keywords: body language, mark bowden, how to read body language, body language expert, mark bowden body language, mark bowden interview, Eric Hunley, unstructured, unstructuredpod, unstructured podcast, interview podcast, unstructured podcast live, body language reader, body language in psychology, interpret body language, how to interpret body language, body language meaning, unstructured interview, reading body langauge, interpreting body language cues, the behavior panel

Id: RwBHp1kD8dg

Length: 61min 54sec (3714 seconds)

Published: Thu Apr 02 2020