Worlds Biggest Sports Promoter - Darts, Boxing & Snooker: Barry Hearn

but right at the end I sat in the chair you're sitting in and Anthony Joshua was there and he looked at me one day and he said what do you really want out of me I said I want one percent of your adrenaline who do you think would win the fight AJ Tyson Fury I think at the moment you play Tyson Fury a big favorite IGA has concussified I don't think I've ever seen a heavyweight since Ernie Schaefer punch as hard as AJ Saudi to come and said we want boxing over here now what sort of multiples are they paying out there and Saudi compared to what you've been playing in England mind your own business a lot more a lot more and Anthony likes to fight I believe that he believes that he can get back to being the unified champion of the world what were the big fights you put Eubank in with was it Eubank Ben you've been in 1990 we got the best fight I've ever seen to this day why was there not a third fight with Eubank then because unfortunately [Music] welcome to show mate thanks Dodge always good to be with you yeah mate so I'm really looking forward to this one it's been good we've been holding on for this one for a couple of months with the weather and stuff yeah well let's roll all the way back where did you grow up and how did you end up come in the world's biggest Sports promoter I mean I was born in dagenham in the East End and uh my dad was a bus driver my mum was a cleaner house cleaner so you know typical story really poor working class but actually very happy you know I mean it wasn't you know it's a rags to Richie's story in commercial terms but emotionally they were good days you know I think we were respectful we were disciplined my mother was my driving force my father died quite early and my mother I think was an inverted working class snob you know she didn't she wasn't educated herself but she knew what she wanted for her children so in my case she was always on my case you know um I think when I was I went to grammar school well I think I was about the only kid on our estate that did so she pushed me into things like she gave me leq she made me have elocution lessons when I was 11. as you can see it didn't work um then about when I was 13 she put me into the amateur dramatic Society I was doing bertok brick plays and Shakespeare when I was 13. I was 14 she put me in a verse speaking Society so I was traveling around schools reciting T.S Elia Robert Graves and that sort of stuff at the time it was a complete pain but looking back they actually made a massive difference to me because it gave me confidence to speak in public gave me a feeling of knowledge and he also taught me how to fight because every kid took the piss out of me in my school so I used to have to stand up for myself obviously so all in all looking back I owe a big debt because she was the one that said to me when I was 12 years old she came back from her house she was cleaning some rich Giza on big houses on the top of the hill and she said when you grow up you're going to be a chartered accountant I said am I she said yes I went well what did they do she said I have no idea she said but the man who's outside clean said you never see a poor well and that line stuck in my my mind for forever so career lessons at school you know I don't need to go I'm going to be a child again and always I wasn't envious of people to have money I just wanted to sign it I wanted the same Level Playing Field based on ability not where you came from not who you are and in those days it was quite difficult I mean we live in a very diverse Society but it has lots of problems people understanding that everyone is equal for example and we didn't have it in those days for different reasons it was upper class middle class working class and you better know where you came from and we were clearly working class you know but she eventually somehow the other got an uncle of mine who was in South End who had a tiny tile in business and he convinced she said see what you can do for my son and we're very family orientated and you know working cosplay off now and he convinced his accountant to give me a chance as an article Clerk so I joined 1960. well I did I never went to University but I got a couple of a levels somehow the other which meant I could do a four-year article clerk so I was in school 59 to 66 and I I joined this very small firm in 66 as an article clock six quid a week and I had to study in the evenings for the exams in those days it was all correspondence goals and my mum literally locked me in my bedroom between age 18 and 21. Monday I never went out yeah I never went out you know looking back on it again it all gets relevant in our life you talk about sacrifices and well I sacrificed a good bit of my youth to achieve my goal and I didn't play at it because I never failed any exam because I couldn't afford to I couldn't afford to take the exam twice and also because of my work ethic I knew every bloody word I mean I could recite pages from memory because you know I'd done the job properly so I qualified in 1970. so one of the youngest ever child accounts I was 21 I became a fellow of The Institute I think the youngest ever at 24. and you know not being funny I was smart you know I wasn't academically smart I was street smart with a bit of Academia thrown in if you like so I qualified in 1970 yeah qualified in 1970 went to a major firm of accountants for a few years and that's when I first came up against a real class barrier because I was smart and I was very and I was a Salesman and I think with the you know the learnings of verse speaking and acting and things like that I had the confidence to become a Salesman and I was successful for him and after a couple of years or three years they I remember the senior partner of this company brought me into his office and he said we're going to make you an audit manager lovely more money he said I want to tell you you're the youngest audience manager and we've had in this firm for 200 years I said well that's good he said you're good he said and you've got a great career here but I have to just tell you one thing this is as far as you go he said you know you didn't be Universe you didn't go to university no family money no connections but you're good so you're gonna have a job with us for the rest of your life and you're going to get a great pension and I thought [ __ ] that I'm off I'm off and within a few months you know I was doing the audio of a fashion company brilliant people I've never come across any Outlet I never saw drugs or men with makeup and things like that and suddenly I'm thrown into this I was like a fish out of water they always take the mechanic because I used to wear a suit and tie I was Financial director and I'd go up to the library and I'll what's that smell oh it's marijuana I've never smelled marijuana before I'm like what is that and then I see people you know blokes coming in with eyeliner and lipstick and but they were so creative and they were the New Breed that come out of the 60s into the 70s and they were changing the world of fashion and it took some time to adjust I mean during that period I started boxing I don't know why but I felt challenged in some way and it was an expression and it and it solved a lot of problems but it was a small part of your life growing up no I mean sport was part for as far as a player yeah I mean I wasn't particularly good like with me every my whole life I'm a Gold Medal winner in enthusiasm but I'm not even bronze inability so I try everything and I give 110 God decided that I was not destined I mean growing up I wanted to be heavyweight champion of the world because I'd go to Saturday morning pictures and I'll see pathway news and they had to have Rocky Marciano on or later on Muhammad Ali and they were my heroes and so that was my dream but then of course I come in every so I found out I weren't very good at fighting so it was a bit of a career setback but other doors opened I was brought up in a generation that always looked forward to retirement my granddad was a Texaco Lorry driver all his life all he ever talked about was getting to 65 and of course when they do and they stop he was dead at 67. so I was in that situation in 82 I thought you know what I'm I'm a freemax it's just a wonderful feeling to be independent and when you're on your own or you're a creative entrepreneur that's a feeling that other people don't get we do and it comes with a price but I thought I'd retire I thought I'd play cricket I play golf and I go fishing well I did it for six weeks every day and I was climbing up the wall and I realized that what I missed was the cut and thrust the deals the ups and downs so I thought that's not we won't go silly I don't want to get back in the rat race but our former little company I'll call it Max room because it's named after the hall that Steve Davis used to play his money matches in in Romford that was the matrim club so I thought matrim it's a really keyword romford's been a big part of my life dagner has as well so I thought we'll call it Max room we have a hundred pound company and I'll just manage Steve Davis and a few snooker boys I kept the Romford Club as part of the deal so I was never going to get one of the clubs but I was never going to starve but there was an adrenaline rush that wasn't there anymore and I gave I took 60 and my Eddie was three I gave him twenty percent Katie was five I gave her twenty percent and that hasn't changed still a family business you know although it's not worth Andrew Quinn anymore but now from then onwards when you know who you bought you know when you sold that feeling from an East End boy selling for a million pounder at one point two when did you buy this Big Country House well that's the same see when I realized that this retirement doesn't work for people like me I thought I've got this compliances in my because I'm untouchable at 34. I thought that's not good I need to be at risk so I thought first thing to do let's spend all the money because then you put yourself on and the president again yeah no and I'm not going to spend it stupid I'm not going to waste it on drugs or gambling or anything like that so I bought mascals which is my head office this I bought this from the Ford Motor Company they wanted 260 grand for I gave them two four five and it's a good investment obviously it's my family home for 20 years now it's where we're speaking now he's the head office of Metro how would you explain to the listeners out there what this building is bedroom wise well it's it's nearly 300 years old it sits on a hill where I can see London I'm not there but I can see it it's surrounding its own grounds it's magnificent to be honest with you but more importantly it was a great family home my kids grew up here I was very happy here I said I think it's a lucky house if that makes sense So eventually jump in a few years which we can go back on I had to move because my wife breeds racehorses and it's the love of her life so she's put out with me for 53 years God Moses what's your wife's name Susan Susan yeah so whatever she wants Iowa yeah so I moved to get more land and to have a bigger stud Farm operation for her uh and she wanted me to sell this house because it had so many memories she didn't want other people in it that she knew and I wouldn't do it I said this is a Lucky House this is going to be our headquarters and it's the best decision I'm out here but elsewhere I went into London I bought number three Grove mystery on the corner of old Bond Street I wish I had it now it's worse would you pay on that you remember I paid 600 and 20 grand in the 80s yeah and then I bought 500 acres in Scotland and put up a million fur trees on it as a tax it was a tax saving scheme as well but it was a massive asset opposite the Malik entire so I could sing Beatles songs to Paul McCartney and I yeah and that was it the money was gone but I had to you know I had the snooker Club was making good money and I had the snooker boys who I was managing and I said let's just have an adventure yeah let's go and spread this game all over the world and have some fun matron was formed to have fun it wasn't ever formed to make money that that comes all people are going people will chase money never make money if you do a good job you make money so there's no need to go you know don't you if it if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time is exactly opposite it's been in the right place at the right time you do your nuts you know so I never worried about making money I thought I'm good enough money will come what sort of Personality were you in your 30s once you when you've got a million yeah no I was always aggressive as a Young Man I mean I'd I bet therapy since I'm online now I mean I'm a softie mid 70s you could have a tear up put it that way in my use yeah probably too much yeah I was I was a reasonable size lump and then I had a few chips on my shoulder as well you know so like for example I play football at school I was okay but I never heard the whistle the final whistle against any public school because someone would say jolly good shot oh boy I'm not proud of it but it was in a way of expression of the chips and we all got chips on our shoulder we don't cure it until we identify it and funnily enough you know I don't know part of mine who's long gone now Freddie King is an xboxer he was my partner in another business which was we ran all the East End Food machines jukeboxes pool tables big business so you were taking all the cash from them yeah 2 000 machines out on site and Freddie was the one that said you know look at you you know you're smoking you give fat come down the gym just get fit and it ended up being more in game fit I loved it but he also taught me a lot of where boxing does do it teaches you control because I wasn't very good I used to get bashed up by most people yeah and it actually got that a little bit of that chip off my shoulder I still got yeah there's still a fraction you always remember where you come from you know and it does affect you but now it was once matching started of course it I got the Buzz for it in terms of events and I was years ahead of my time because there weren't people out there doing that when did you first meet Chris Eubank where were you I was uh I was in my office and Len Ganley the old snooker referee famous snooker referee of years ago phoned me up and he said there's a boxer up here in Sheffield we're doing the World Championships he said there's a box up here wants to meet you I'll say that he said his name's Chris Eubank so obviously I follow this box and I'll follow the results I was doing a lot of shows and uh I'd seen this kid it was about eight nil not I didn't think it was much special but he had one fight I think it was against Anthony Logan I thought it was quite a tough fight and he came through with flying colors I knew he had a good gin an orthodox style but effective so I went up to Sheffield it was just one of those great days you know I'm sitting in the corner at the Grove House Hotel and the skis are just swans over like walking on air with the strut no he didn't he was partless he never had anything but he looked a million dollars you know he always did and I remember his first words to me were good morning Mr Hearn my name is Christopher Livingston Eubank I am an athlete and I know my worth I thought you know what mate I love you because I've always been a big fan of characters in sport sometimes characters don't have ability but when they have both they're really a big asset to have a new bank it just yeah I mean he was an artist in the ring but he was also an artist outside the ring and he was a partner rather than he wasn't an employee I think I worked for him much more than he worked for me but of course we built this brand of Eubank a lot of it was rehearsed a lot of it came naturally to Chris but we developed a fighter and we matched him properly and we gave him the right opportunities you say he gave no opportunities what sort of deal did it look like you was the promoter anymore well initially of course it was a promoter fighter deal so yeah we agreed a deal in Sheffield his next three fights was two thousand pound 2500 3 000 but I would give him 300 pound a week wages okay and he said to me and if I ever get beat you don't have to pay me my wages and I said no if you get beat twice because sometimes you can get unlucky yeah so we actually became I'm saying strange now because of course he's he's such an eccentric man but I think we're still friends if you like I mean I was best mayonnaise wedding so you know I valued associations like that and he he certainly helped bringing back matram to where we wanted to be and gave us the opportunity to kick on from there so he was the first fighter that really controlled his own career I mean other Fighters have since nazim Hammond Ricky Hatton Lennox Lewis they've all adopted the Eubank philosophy but he started it so we in some ways you know we were Partners you know I would be on 25 but it depended out how big he got but because he was so easy to promo it got very big so it was a profitable relationship with both of them you said you're on 25 how's that how does that deal work well once once you go past the promoter relationship and I was with you when you give them a set purse so early days you give them a set person they want the guarantee most important is to keep them active in any sport activity is Paramount because there's no point in having a million pound person if you don't work for 10 years you know so he went up progressively depending on how much his fights were then we got to a certain stage when we did the sky deal we moved away from ITV on Sky and from that stage he owned a show so I would say 25 of whatever it made so anything so sponsorship Seafood the whole lot and so I was incentivized to make as much money as possible because of course it was mine and he was incentivized because he had the best promoter in the world working exclusively for him and pushing his career so it was the type of relationship for example even today that we've got with Anthony Joshua you know where we don't take the risk that we used to take you know when you pay someone a million quid you might lose a million Queen when you let them own the show they feel part of the process they see every contract they see every receipt they're involved so they're not thinking anyone's ripping them off because everything's there to be audited yeah and we're happy to take a fairly small percentage nowadays once they get to that level I mean Anthony Joshua is a great example we don't get 25 of Anthony Joshua but we don't want it what we want is Anthony Joshua to be with us for the rest of his career which we've now got but you do that you've got to ruin their respect and you've got to be straight with them you've got to be fair with them and don't try and be clever don't try and Nick all the money on day one because you don't see any of the money on day two that's a stupid philosophy that a lot of promoters have employed over the years what were the big fights you put Eubank in with was it Eubank Ben you've been in 1990 was the best fight I've ever seen to this day were you involved in the second fight yeah of course yeah I mean I was 21 World title fights and then he got beat by Steve Collins and and the relationship's never the same yeah okay you know because they look at you and say well maybe it's your fault not mine and and vice versa so but we partied as friends and he went off he joined Frank Warren he had three fights I think got B three times why wasn't our third fight with Eubank Ben because unfortunately when we did um Ben 2 I took a little bit of a chance because I really wanted to do the fight but now it wasn't a hundred grand and 200 Grand this was much more money so I signed Ben and give him a million quid and assign Eubank for the fire and give him 900 guarantee but it was in those days quite a risk because I didn't have a TV contract on that fight I didn't sold a ticket and Don King phoned me up and said Hey Barry I'm going to be your partner oh when are you that's news to me where did that come from he said no he said you know I'm this is a great fight he said I'll give you two million dollars for the overseas TV but I want half the show I thought well that's a no-brainer I'm out of trouble I'm making money yeah lovely so long story but along the way Don was very friendly with Frank Warren and Frank was having one of his struggling in times financially so we we gave him five percent each as well because he had a relationship with ITV that was beneficial to us hey give him five percent of my money I don't care we needed to say we did all the work those two did nothing but that's okay that's okay because we're good at doing this yeah so Don wanted not just half the show but he wanted both Ben and Eubank on his books after Edition okay but this was a you know this was a big money fire and of course it transpired to ITV give us a million quid for the fight we won on sale we took it to Old Trafford we sold 55 000 tickets Old Trafford the show made a lot of money and can you remember roughly how much it made yeah about three million three Mill not bad for a night's work but it's not really a nice work it's a lifetime yeah yeah yeah but then of course Don was you know Donny's Don he's a controller he's a hard man he wants 101 cents out of every dollar but he's not very good with contracts you know okay so I wrote the contract and I don't know why but just out of fun I said if you bank or Ben win or lose there were you done and I got the fighters in the room and explained the deal it was a good deal for them going forward and they all said thanks Barry look we've got to tell you this yeah it's a lot of money um but what I left out was the draw in the contract anyway of course the fight was a draw yeah so don was going on after the fire by Harry controls British boxing now he's got being here he's got Uber and I said done you got [ __ ] all mate yeah read the contract and he was very upset to put it mildly but that's life and then I sat down with the fighters and said look you know to my mind you're a free agent so go where you want Nigel been thought he won the fight he was very annoyed with me at the time I mean we're friends now he was very annoyed so he went with Don King anyway Eubank said I'm staying with you yeah and that loyalty was rewarded subsequently with some big fights you know I mean Collins obviously was a big fight but we went all over the place we went to South Africa we went to Portugal and what was what was Eubank like to deal with difficult very difficult very eccentric but actually he would go away he was a thinker you know he'd go away and think and he'd come back and generally got it right so I can't remember we ever had a dispute until we parted at the end and that was quite amicable as well because clearly uh of course he's got so I remember so 1999 probably around 96 97 something like that and no it got beat fair and square by Collins and he shouldn't have been he I think the Michael Watson fight was the moment when everything went a bit tits up you know Eubank was never the same fighter after the Mark or what's an injury and I don't think to this day he's ever forgetting it I mean we're all very friendly with Michael and we we help him where we can but that was a big psychological but so from that day Eubank never really went on the front for in an aggressive manner I'm not saying he didn't want to hurt people I just think he thought I don't want to get hurt myself so he was never the same so I mean the Collins fight which he lost he dropped Collins and then never really went for the Finish were you thinking boxing's the way forward will you like him stepping into the boxing mode after being in the snooker and yeah I mean I like my personality suits the boxing well you know there are strange people in the world and it's governed by respect I think mostly outside the room and yeah it's exciting I mean snooker was great and we were still involved in the snooker and of course in the background we were always growing the next one yeah which perhaps people don't see at the time you know but whether it's nine ball pool or fishing or basketball or netball or temp in Bowling I mean you try everything uh you have to be selective at some stage but so that was going on that's your investment in the future which may cost you some money but you're making money so it doesn't matter but boxing I was very comfortable in the boxing world uh I love the relationship with Fighters I love anyway the relationship with people that you can help them to change their lives and I love the fact that I can build a profitable business in the process as well so it takes out all the boxes no it's a it's a strange complicated business and it wouldn't suit everybody it suited me and subsequently of course it suited Eddie did you ever have any dealings of Ambrose Mendy of course yeah well he was looking after Nigel bin yeah he cocked up on the contract as well when we fought Nigel when we fought Nigel been in the first one we weren't the mandatory Challenger and he never asked for options you never ever take a non-mandatory fire without insisting on options in case something goes wrong they got complacent Bob Aaron was that was the governor Ambrose was the the Wheeler Dealer as he is always and they [ __ ] up and I couldn't resist it on the night of the fight in 1990 because they gave me a load of aggravation which we had to which we all got dealt with but a load of egg before oh yeah give me some examples well I gave us a shitty dressing room they gave Eubank dirty towels I mean dubank was fastidious about his cleanliness on the way into being they they stopped our empty music Simply the Best anything to unsettle us you know and that's okay because you but I remember I was frothing at the mouth I like to be restrained it was very bad very embarrassing and Eubank said to me look to me went better calm yourself down he said he said they've given me a terrible dressing room they'd give me shitty towels and now they've broken my music would you just let me go in there and Bash up this Giza yeah and I win okay Chris and he went in and box his ears off and it was a great great fight both of them were great Fighters anyway um but he was a one-off character that had to be involved in every part so when we did the new Sky deal I thought you were Ben with me yeah yeah and you know we was earning it was only decent money and I remember Mckenzie was the headache sky sport he said I want you not messing about I said I want you and he said I'm going to give you what was it five million pounds for a year and I wow I'm saying and Eubank looks at him and he went that is a very upsetting offer Kelvin McKenzie I've said what I make it six but and we ended up with about eight I think yeah but having him there was an asset to me as well yeah and he also put his mind at rest that he was involved and wasn't getting ripped off which is why he stayed with me so it was a good relationship what about your relationship with Frank Warren how's that been over the years well always we've always socially I think we've always gone he's a very sociable animal he's good come there I don't trust him in business okay so and by the way he might not trust me yeah maybe we're Cut From the Same Cloth I don't know um he's North London I'm East London but he's he's a good operator but he sounds terrible to say this he's not real in my view he should have capitalized more on the ability as so his business side wasn't very clever in some ways I'm sure we all make mistakes he made some colossal mistakes but what I'm saying for a man who's been around as long as he have he should be he should be bigger and better but you know did you enjoy that competition did you see him again yeah and today do you still see oh yeah yeah I mean look we're we're not really in competition now we're a global operation we've grown so someone once said to describe the difference between them would be like the shop on the corner criticizing Sainsbury's you know we grow we've all grown yeah Frank sort of stayed in boxes and we Diversified outside because that's what we wanted to do and obviously he wanted to stay in boxing I think Eddie's never met him but he talks to his son George and gets on very well with him and why not are they the same sort of age yeah yeah but you know I would never I would never block any relationship and I don't dislike Frank Warren in fact exactly opposite I really wish him the best of ladies one of the great survivors of all time but because of his business track record he won't begin if I was on uh Dragon's Den I would have to say oh man would you ever sit in a room and do a podcast with Frank no no no I don't want any no it's nothing personal it's just that I have a limited amount of time I'll spend with people I want to spend my time with and I'm equally sure he may be the same yeah it's an interesting one to do but if if Frank and ever I got together that wouldn't be on a podcast that'd be on a movie set yeah quality tell me about the deal how did you get Anthony Joshua on board I didn't really edit it not me Anthony won the gold medal obviously in 2016 2016 2012 2012 12 2012. and uh I was desperate for him as everybody else was because good looking guy a charismatic gold medal in the story it's just a question of how much and and actually I didn't realize that Tom smile very smart boy and Eddie said to me that we're not I'm not putting it I said whatever you got to go and get that kid you said no I'm not putting pressure on him I mean were you losing you know everyone's he went no I don't think so he said this is a smart kid so he went to see Anthony he said look just go everywhere when you've been everywhere and you've learned the business a little bit come back and see me the best movie ever made yeah because Anthony saw our business more importantly he saw our family we saw how we run our lives I think that gave him a little bit of comfort no boxer really trusts a promoter until you've got a relationship that's bigger than just contracts so Anthony went all over the place all over America sat down with every promoter out there really learn listen took notes came back to it said I want to join you and that was it and I always remember that I mean Eddie did the whole deal nothing to do with me but right at the end I sat in the chair you're sitting in and Anthony Joshua was there quite naive and we used to have little talks every now and again about business and life and and he looked at me one day and he said what do you really want out of me no fight has ever asked me that before I went are you listening to this are you going yeah I said I want one percent of your adrenaline so any other sort of money out I don't care I got enough money but what you give me is what I can't buy walking in with you one day in a Madison Square Gardens walking in with you when you unify the tiles watching you become the first billionaire boxer that'll do me yeah that's an adrenaline rush I can't buy and this that's the truth that's what I get and uh people don't understand it because people always associate you with their thoughts and I want to make you must be making a fortune you know I talk to all these kids in these things sometimes that what happened to your house how much you cost so no no listen when you get to a certain stage I know it sounds ridiculous it don't mean a being what it means is are you doing with the one most precious commodity you'll ever have time are you doing the best you can do are you being the best you can be and you know in my case I tick that box which is probably why I'm still grafting my nuts what's the score with someone like Anthony comes on board he's chosen matchroom do you have to pay him a fee to be in your state how does how do the finances work so much people people that want to pay you up front are generally ripping you off second week they got you you know when I always try to say the fighters there's a much better deal are you good if you're not good the door's over there I think you're good using you're good because if you're good you can earn you know the clever thing if you're dealing with if you want to be clever that's what we always talk about no knickers people you know so yeah but you get a fight that comes in yeah where do they come from same here I come from worse yeah what do you know about this skin I got no money mum dad's got no mind no one's got any money comes from people you've got to be working class to become a professional boxer because you're just not going to take the pain unless you've got it all to do you throw it let me just slightly alter this trade Don King owed Muhammad Ali A couple of million dollars once I didn't have the money and Ali came to see him apparently demanding his money yeah forcibly if necessary and Don King said I haven't got it you'll have to sue me working class guys assuming you know I might kill you I'm not going to sue you Don said the only thing I can suggest and he took a briefcase up and he owned it up and there was two hundred thousand dollars they're not two million two hundred thousand cash he said you sign this waiver document foregoing your rights to the 2 million I'll give you that and I only took the two hundred thousand dollars so fast forward to today Fighters again bear advice and they're much more intelligent than they used to be but in the early days the kid would come and see you if say is worth 10 grand 15 20 25 30 50 100 you know next eight fights yeah and you say you say well I'll give you this contrary [Music] um but I'm going to give you 100 Grand now but that 10 grand is two okay that 15 is three and so on yeah and the kid goes 100 Grand okay the Best Buy I ever had was a bloke called Lopez from Mexico you've never heard of it it was the best fight I've ever had I paid him a hundred thousand dollars once 24 Felix Trinidad and I never saw him again he saw a hundred thousand dollars so that's it I made it yeah I've made it so upfront payments are the worst thing usually for a fire to take what we do is we structure a different payment and we show and also on that journey is you get to a certain level where the fighter owns the show now very few Fighters get to that level because it has to be the multi-million pound level yeah but nevertheless a Fighter's career is more built around how many times will I fight because if you say you're getting 10 grand your first like 15 grand your second buy you better make sure there's not a year in between on your going skin yeah what we would say is we're going to box you six times a year when they start You Can Box them obviously you've got a matchup sensibly but you're giving them a career and you're involved in that career so I mean again talking slightly a tangent why did Hatton and why did Nas leave Frank Warren when his contract run out because they wanted to get real money and they wanted to control their own destiny so what looks like a good deal in the short term it's terrible deal in the long term how did pay-per-view change your life well it gave me a lot more money I mean what year did Pay-Per-View come on the scene if you remember I mean you're talking two thousand oh I'm gonna say 2010 something like that okay I mean for us it really started us but I mean again it's down to Eddie with Kell Brook um George Groves against Carl Frost yeah those type of fights there's always been pay-per-view in the states and we always follow the states eventually as we did with ESPN wall-to-wall sports we had sky and we had BT we had uh and pay-per-view as a part of their broadcast system and it worked and the early pay-per-view initially made a huge amount of money because it was so novel eventually the numbers came down to but you still get the the odd Bonanza you know I mean so when you get to a certain level it's very difficult to find out the real value of what you've got so a terrestrial TV station would have a limit of what they would pay for free give an example well if you take Ben Eubank yeah two right so I got we got a million pound which was a lot of money from our TV to go there's a meal up front Okay but they knew they could get that back from advertising revenues or whatever and you can work the sums out and you know there's a certain amount of speculation now if that's fine I've been on pay-per-view uh I'm gonna say I'm going to be starting I think we started at 14.99 something like that yeah cool yeah back then yeah that does a million views yeah that's 10 million quid I got one yeah so that's the goal for dealing with and that's why the terrestrial station can't compete with pay stations because it's a numbers game no one now if they're the fighters had said to me all right guarantee me 10 million I wouldn't have done the show too much risk so the way around it is to say to the fire you own the show and our title percentage so we're all driving that percentage as much as we're at but you may have it off so crotch grows for example I was talking to George Groves just day before yesterday at 90 000 women yeah yeah if that had been 90 000 and a traditional uh TV broadcast deal with BBC ITV that show might have made two million three million profit because the cost yeah um I think it made 13 or 14. right okay because of pay-per-view pay-per-view what sort of numbers will pay-per-view if you remember no that one was that did about eight hundred thousand which was massive and how nerve-wrecking if you're knowing that you're going oh we don't know we don't know until the actual fight starts the 90 95 of pay-per-view signed up in the last 12 hours yeah so you're going there on a Saturday and you think this is why if you've guaranteed purses you can get your trousers taken down badly yeah but if you do it sensible you're okay but during the evening we spend more time saying to the sky guy how we do it and he's going to get it's trending out and usually they were conservative figures but when you get it right it's the right Buzz because you go to the fighters and you say I mean they're not silly I mean this change this is life-changing money Joshua I mean he's been up to about 1.3 million people yeah how'd you divvy that up then how would you divide it depends on EJ for example you're right okay we're gonna do a million views on an AJ fight at Klitschko at 20 quid a pop yeah and you're paying him as well and then you're dealing with the sponsors and broadcasting rights okay could you break that down for me well you just I mean your basically just go out and get as much money from everyone as you can because you're representing your clients so your fiduciary duty for us is all about Anthony Joshua yeah part of that is what you're going to pay the opponent the opponent depends on the level of opponent if someone comes over from America who you know he's a good fighter but he hasn't really had the exposure and he's an opponent we call him you know he could be on half a million dollars he could earn 700 000. AJ gets the rest but if you're dealing with a Tyson Fury for example you sit down the table and it's you know the arm wrestling goes on entice and Furious case sometimes for years yeah and it's who's the bigger draw who's not the bigger drawer who's got the biggest ego and you go right down to whose pictures on the left-hand side of the poster who walks in the ring first who's yeah I can get very ego driven yeah but I try and get above all that and just say let's concentrate on the money so you know if you have a mandatory Challenger under some rules is 75-25 to the champion in other rules it's 60 40. occasionally it's even 80 20. but it's very much a negotiation on and again it's about competition so Anthony Joshua's got another fight we think before hopefully a big fire in December this could all change in the next hour that's box that's boxing yeah but we will look at a range of opponents and part of the decision-making process is how much does each one of these guys get because Anthony Joshua he's not just a boxer he's a business mayor and he's got to look after himself and maximize his earnings throughout a short career so it's very much Case by case so we're looking again I could pay him 700 G's I could pay him 300 G's or even 500 Grand who do we fancy well but that's when you bring in your broadcast partners and you have to involve them and your sponsors mainly a broadcast Partners who are paying the big bucks and say how do you you know and it's quite an advanced industry yeah because the broadcasters will say look we're prepared to pay that if it's Tyson Fury yeah and we're prepared to pay that if it's uh Alexander rustic yeah uh Dylan white we're prepared to pay that okay and then this gives you these cases that you've suggested that we've never heard of riverbeds about that so it's a scale like that because they work it back on their own algorithms how many subscribers are we going to sell how many people they are the speculators and fortunately because there's a lot of competition in that market for TV rights that you know you can drive the price but what you really want is for everybody involved to make money because then you kick on to the next okay what about the decision making when you're looking again a Cardiff or going to Wembley is Wembley more expensive Cardiff more expensive yeah it's fair it's just a logistical exercise it doesn't that doesn't affect anything what's cost what's your expected income what's your ticket price can I get more money I can get a Cardiff if I go to Craig Park if I've got extra expenses on security I mean you just you factor in all these things and then you the fighter comes into the conversation you know you've done all this work he just looks at the bottom line let's go that way yeah okay which one do you prefer at the two when blue or Cardiff remember of course because it's London but I don't care I mean I will go wherever I mean we go to Saudi yeah well it's not the same atmosphere it's not the same Buzz it's not the same fun yeah I pay a lot more money decision made yeah so so for example on that Saudi thing the Saudis have come and said we want boxing over here now we're going to pay you copious amounts to come here like you said bang done so look at any business you know okay what's my choices yeah and now what's the reason for my choices in life some people might be painters you know it might be religious but they do they don't do things like we do they do things because they're born to do it and they've got a love for it Beyond money we don't and the quicker we understand that we take away our a lot of the conjecture yeah so we're here to maximize we'd rather do people with nice people we'd rather do business with people we like but there's a price for doing business with anybody in any way what sort of multiples are they paying out there in Saudi compared to what you'd be paying in in England mind your own business a lot more a lot more roughly we took them five ten times more no I just said to you the first time yeah keep trying mate well you know all this boxing there seems to be lots of boxing fans out there which we all know there's lots of boxing everyone on social media talking about it how do we know who's hurting the truth like negotiations going on say like with AJ and Tyson Fury I think I think yeah no one never really knows it's very easy to give a try I think what I would do is believe us and I'll say that what else would I say but we're a bit above all there the rest of it and and actually one of the great benefits of having a lot of money is you can afford to tell the truth now obviously sometimes we'll have an agenda we'll try and be building a situation which is perhaps above the heads of the average fan because the average fans just says well why haven't I well why can't I watch Tyson Fury against AJ yeah so it's a bit more complicating that but then their next question is and five grand a ticket and then the next question is well I can't travel out to Saudi I'm saying look it's awfully difficult for me to say this is you in a nice way but you're not so relevant in the bigger picture I mean my job is to maximize my clients earnings and I'd like to be a really good guy for you and I'll do my best in all my sports I mean we try ever so hard things like that so we keep the ticket prices reasonably down because we sell out and we don't want to lose the support of those people but there does come a certain level where I'm awfully sorry but you're not part of the equation how do you feel about all the way Anthony Joshua was going at the moment he's had massive fight against Klitschko and he said all these things unbelievably well you know the old same with um is it Helen's insane about this silk Trek so the silk pajamas in the morning do you think that's played a factor in in 100 million quid so the bite or not he is a consummate professional yeah and a real businessman now I would you know it hurts getting in the face yeah for what he's earned I agree with you I'll be saying silk pajamas who needs this I'm going yeah I remember going to Rome once seeing Marvin Hagler bless him China Games come out of retirement to fight Eubank and the conversation went very up I I've still got some money I've got fortunes I've got I don't know 789 million dollars in the bank it's very hard to get up at four o'clock in the morning do your road work and you've got that money in the bank multiply that by millions and you got into the Joshua situation but Joshua who really likes fighting number one secondly he's a great study of the art and he realizes he's not good enough they still got the hunger to learn and thirdly he likes the money put those together and you've got a fighter you know who is in another leg of his journey inevitably eventually it all comes to an end but what it but again what you don't want to do and I had the same thing in 1982 you don't want to look back in your life and say I stopped being who I am that year and Anthony likes to fight so I don't know whether he'll fight July August December or not fight again I believe that he believes that he can get back to be in the unified champion of the world and loads of people disagree with that and all I say is boys let's watch the journey and enjoy it because it won't be here forever yeah who do you think would win the fight AJ Tyson Fury I think at the moment you that you you'd make Tyson Fury a big favorite AJ has concussive power I don't think I've ever seen a heavyweight since Ernie Schaefer punch as bit as hard as AJ but of course you've got to throw punches to make him hurt and they'll be the critic saying he's not throwing enough punches I'm probably with them but his technique is improving and he's winning competitive fights comfortably but perhaps not as most exciting as he was when he was gung-ho's why is that because we want the gun we were waiting for him because you're not a professional boxer yeah you go gung-ho like the last fight with Franklin if AJ got beat that's him yeah so you want to go go and the mind is a funny thing you know you're the brain remembers things that you don't think they remember He Walked on to one against Andy Ruiz when he went in for the kill or something in the brain goes down it's a bit like you bank and Watson Eubank said no that fight didn't affect me but he did because his brain said don't you go too don't don't don't throw one page and get out don't throw combinations all these things go through your head over a period of time they will evaporate which is why I believe he needs one or two more fights before but commercially that may not make sense but he believes he can do it and I'm watching him Warsaw against Franklin was a really good performance against a live opponent but I wasn't Sensational in terms of excitement now but put yourself in a box of shoes do you want to go do you want to be a national hero and go gung-ho [ __ ] or bust and run the risk of getting beat or do you want to prolong and give yourself a chance to learn more by doing a textbook shout out yeah and that was what the second fight against Ruiz was like that and a fight against Franklin so you've had a 30-year relationship with Sky Sports how hard was that for you to leave with the boxing and go across the design well first is put it into context I mean if I say I've been lucky in my life and I would include you know discovering snooker me and Steve Davis mean Chris Eubank I think the arrival of Skye is really what made matrim the company is so we go back a long way and a lot of great friends here I've had a lot of fabulous events given us a lot of pleasure and they've paid me very well throughout my tenure with Skye but like everything else you know there does come a time when there are Quantum shifts in a Marketplace that only a four would ignore so Sky's boxing contract there's lots of lessons to learn out of this by the way but this guy's contract came to towards an end and design uh approached us to say we want to make a presence in the UK and we had a relationship with him because Eddie did a billion dollar deal with them in America and so we knew them well enough but obviously our first love is Skye although the company is not the same as it was when I first started when it was a bit Cavalier and everything was so exciting you know because it was new new ground yeah they're an established rock-solid hugely profitable business now and they have systems there are what we call a proper company but they also suffer from arrogance and complacency so despite the fact that we was earning them a huge amount of money on pay-per-view shows and despite the fact that we had a long relationship they weren't really pushing hard they got they got a bit complacent you know it's like for getting your last anniversary or you know not buying her a bunch of flowers every now and again you have to tell them you love them don't you they didn't tell us they loved us so normally within a year certainly at least or before people would sit down and say look your contract's running out in 18 months and or let's do a new deal you know you don't run it up to the line unless you think you're beyond approach and I think there was a little bit of that oh don't you know Sky Barry matram always be no don't worry about them they're not going anywhere where would they leave us and then of course someone come in with an absolutely colossal offer and you still want to tell them the truth and they look you know the contract Runs Out in six months you haven't done anything about it well yeah that you know and and the tone of the voice was yeah we're going to give you a bit more but let's not get carried away you know one of those okay yeah you know we're Sky yeah we're a bit special this guy you need us more than we need you salt to feel not quite as bad as that but they certainly got complacent and they made a big error and they changed a lot of personnel which didn't help either um I'll just turn around and said I have a wife and family I have dreams of where I'm going to grow my business I don't want to leave you but you're not going to get remotely close to this amount of money I said if it was just a million or two more my friendship my loyalty would say no yeah but you've just been blown out of the water son and I don't see any way that you're going to compete and to be fair to the powers that be said or we can't compete with that so but then that's it let's pause friends we still do the darts we still do the pull we still do the fishing with Skye and we have a great relationship and that's been hugee obviously darts has been hugely successful for this guy that contract comes out and about two and a half years time and I hope very much that we will be talking to Skye before that to see that they will give us strange word to use that will give us the respect yeah of pain the commercial right for us and and we will have to wait and see as it tainted your relationship a little bit even though you've moved from a little bit I mean obviously there's a little bit of you know them and us they're now a competitor and we're now a competitor I mean we're much bigger in boxing than they are but they they they they like to be you know they're Sky they like to be the number one player but they're not um who knows what the future is competition is you know I hate competition I'd rather just be just me yeah I mean I don't want competition I don't but at the same time it does keep you on your toes and it does make us go the extra mile and you know there is a I think yeah there's a little bit of sadness among some people at Sky that we left our friends at Sky understand the reality of the situation and that's more important to me but going forward they're they're a competitor and that's how it should be how's it going forward because there's only like I've lost five billion pounds driving this does that matter to you at all well no I mean that's an investment they made you compare them to Amazon that's a fraction of what Amazon lost for the first 10 years it's a new world yeah and it's dominated by people with serious amounts of money and design I've got serious amounts of money and they're easy for me to say they're turning the corner and they look there was a time a couple of years ago where I'm thinking Hmm have I made the right move you know now I'm absolutely convinced I made the right move I see the change in Trends globally a lot of us tend to look at the UK as being the be all handle but it's a tiny Speck of the global audience and design Embrace that and yeah they make mistakes but they're turning out to be good partners and we are paying Fighters yeah the appropriate amount of money because we have the funds that do that we are the biggest Global boxing promoters in the world by country mile and our plan on boxing is actually to develop more of a UFC flavor in terms of global domination so we'll you know we'll be doing so many shows in the Middle East so many shows in Australia so many shows in the Nordic summer shows in America some shows in Mexico and so on so it's a bit in a way it's a little bit like the darts what we're trying to build is value for money for the Panther value for the money for the broadcaster valued money for us so we want people to come and see a matrim show like when you buy a ticket for the darts you don't actually go and say I want to see a player yeah you're buying a ticket for the dance it's that brand it's the experience of that night and most people I mean a lot of people Everyone copies what we do of course they're trying to be the best but it's improving the customer experience it's a fundamental part of selling tickets and making your event atmospheric and people over a smile in their face when they leave say wow what a night when's the next one that's all I want so we've disowned they were like it's reported that they gave you 19 million quid over a five-year deal does that allow you I don't know if that's true or not does that allow you to go right I need to go and get Canelo on the books does that allow you to say well I've got 14 Fighters oh yeah how does it work we've always had a machine gun but we need someone to supply the bullets otherwise it's a waste of space and when you've got the backing of design in America and globally and in the UK small part but basically uh yeah you've got you've got the weapon and you've got the gun so you can go to fires like Canelo and you know he's a very interesting man because he's made his shed like man he just loves fighting he loves fighting and him and Eddie are quite close friends but it's still business you know he still doesn't give you anything for nothing he's quite you know business savvy but of course to have Canelo to have Katie Taylor to have Anthony Joshua gives you an enormous amount of Leverage in that world not just with the public and broadcasters but with other Fighters yeah so we've got a kid called Pacheco at the moment's coming through in the Mexican ranks we think he's going to be the next he's only a youngster yeah yeah plenty of time yeah but the reason why we have credibility with those fires is because you know you're a young kid see what we do you son how about making your debut on answer Joshua card I'm all over that yeah well my mates can come see yeah or if you're a Mexican you know we're going to do we do six shows or something in Mexico maybe more how would you like to be on a and a card for Canelo I mean you can't buy that and that's where money you know of course they want the money later on but the most important thing is handling their careers properly and not taking risk for the short term you know to have a plan like you'd have a plan if you you know if you invented a factory that could manufacture that cup yeah yeah you've got to have a plan now do I sell it what's my market how much it gonna cost me what's my margin how do I Market it same in the boxer it's exactly the same I used to signify us don't take this the wrong way to me you're a Lambo Carl yeah I've got a polishing there might be a diamond inside yeah might just be cold well there's a level you know you're gonna you know to some fighters to win the area title is a magnificent achievement other Fighters want to be world championed and unified you know but it all comes down to ability in the end as it should but along the way we can take a lot of the pressures off fires and give them the opportunity I mean again I always say to Young Fighters you know there's a red button on my desk trust me when I tell you you don't want me to push that red button that red button is let's find out but yeah now I don't want to find out until I've given the fire every chance to be the best he can be and then if he really wants to go to that extra level you press the red button yeah you and I have been promoters for years in the sports and events business if you've got a bit of advice for me baz yeah I should never given you advice to start listen you understand the business you I'm not blowing smoke out of your asses you've done a good job because you understand the basics does keep to the basics don't start getting Eerie Theory Dreamsville and the secret with your brand which is going I don't know how many years it's been going now 12 14 16 16. you built a brand every year yeah and that's the great thing see in sports terms history is the same as building a brand isn't it so the live golf tour is destroying professional golf effectively people don't see it properly but it will do because it will lower the value of golf but the live golf could pay a trillion dollars prize money but they'll never get the history of the open on the Masters and that's quite humbling because we realize it's not just about money but money's a big part of it so what you've done with your brand is progressively over the years learn more improve your business improved your product improve your customer experience improved the one failure of most businesses you don't want to be a secret yeah yeah [ __ ] or whatever get it out there because we live in a world of the King has no clothes if you can convince people over and over and over and over yeah that this is worthy of their attention they'll be your most loyal customer and they'll stick with you over the years again darts is the best example I can give you you know we give people value for money you know our ticket price is way way too cheap in the commercial world but we take a decision to keep them that way but we're all Relentless we're all Relentless every day every day you think of something new to improve yeah and that's all you ask of people not just businesses and I say to kids all the time when you talk to how can I do exactly just be the best you can be but don't get don't cut yourself short by lack of effort some people say to me how do I improve productivity in my business I'll say shall I I should give you lesson one yeah what's that what's that start an hour earlier and finish an hour later yeah there you go is that it yeah that's it away you go and by the way if you don't improve your productivity this means you're no good yeah yeah just before we finish up here base give us a quick low down on getting your Obe well it was really nice a few friends I've never really knew much about it my a few friends of mine said you know oh you should and I'm like inside you say yeah I'd love it yeah but outside oh that doesn't really matter you're not going to give it to me I'll make too much money or I come from the wrong area or whatever excuse you want to make but of course when the letter comes through the post with my first thought is I wish my mom and dad were alive yeah because you know I'm proud of being British I've never avoided my taxis I pay my dues and I have no intention doing anything else but you do lie I don't care who you are you got time yet much right so I've had I'm the world record holder in hall of fames I challenge anyone to be inducted in more hall of fames than I have I've done before right boxing pull snooker and dance yeah now if you find me one person who's been inducted in in properly organized also fine I'll buy you lunch yeah because you're not going to find it but we all like a slap on the back we all like being told well done I get my slap on a back from accounts yeah I look at my companies and I go wow what a performance but then I say where are we next year this is not the end of the journey tweaking and improving of course keep tweaking keep improving keep grafting yeah and one day you'll get your all and the reward is not necessarily monetary I mean we started you know we started making a lot of money and we thought we sat around as a family we make family decisions still so we thought we'd form a matter of charitable Foundation we thought we're making a load of money we don't once you've made it that's that's a game over isn't it you move on go make some more yeah but then sometimes as you get older you get a bit more reflective and you think I should be doing something with this and we've started a small Foundation it's done very well it's given away quite a lot of money tell me about jumbi Island before we finish well then it's just a little treat for me you know that you know we're like children we as I said to you about honors and things like that we like to be applauded but we like to pretend it doesn't matter because you don't want the disappointment of not getting uploaded the reason why I've been inducted into four hall of fames is not because I'm any good it's because I'm old and people feel like oh bloody hell we're getting everything before he goes otherwise we feel guilty we always say you know posthumous is not the same award is it yeah and then in life you know you do you reach this balance where you say please God it happens to you and I'm sure it will where you look I think there's three stages in life number one for any entrepreneur selfish stage you gotta be a nasty bit at work you've got to be prepared to be a [ __ ] follower horrible husband you've got to be able to work all the hours that God sends you've got to be able to prepare to put up with any level of aggravation it's a horrible horrible time but if you get through that period then you can become a much bad dad much better husband and if you get through that period Then you look around and perhaps you can put something back into the community you came from or the country you came from I think I'm in stage three now and that will be a bigger stage for me as I get older approaching that day when I get summoned to the cricket field in the skies and the government put their hand out on 40 inheritance dates and I say [ __ ] you I've given you all to Sheraton quality but as we'll end it on here mate absolutely love being in your company what you've built up over the years over that 40 50 years is unbelievable no you're on the same Journey mate Arsenal I hope really live long enough to be interviewing you in in times of it when I get more time on my hands but a pleasure to everybody who listens to your podcast it is a terrific listen comes from experience and that's the most important take out the [ __ ] out of your life don't be a Virgo's Merchant plan sustainability and a legacy you won't go far wrong you're good man cheers thank you mate cheers [Music]

Channel: Dodge Woodall

Views: 262,756

Keywords: boxing, dodge woodall, eventfullivespodcast, ambrose, ambrose mendy, boxing social, tyson fury, chris eubank, sky sports, sky sports boxing, anthony joshua, barry hearn, eddie hearn, frank warren, ifl tv, boxing king media, talksport, talksport boxing, premier league, the real danny christie, the overalap, james english, anything goes with james english, sky tv, bt sport, bt sport boxing, GBNews, USYK, DAZN, saudi, francis ngannou, dodge woodall podcast, saudi Money

Id: dLoGi6DinCk

Length: 69min 54sec (4194 seconds)

Published: Wed Jul 12 2023