Why your FEELINGS give the best Career Advice - Podcast with neuroscientist Andrew Huberman

[Music] as if who comes him on the way to Newark Podcast holds Aruna mishaley Nvidia Ponton buy them better Eva unlimited 1/2 Mia and the speaker Gish snaps on via man guard and Patsy going to plan on long and I was switching which because my guest is professor dr. Andrew Harbor man is that Cuba man Huberman that's how you would say yeah so Andrew we actually had a long talk already and we made yesterday and I said I'm gonna wait for the question who you are and how did you become the person we are for the podcast because I wanted to find out from yourself the story because we just heard this super interesting talk and we will share the insights hopefully in the podcast as well first off thanks so much for having me on I'm delighted and especially that we can do this here in beautiful Hamburg so beautiful city it's usually not sunny like that well it's a spectacular so yeah so my I'll give the story of how I got into science and who I've become where I am today which is starts with the earliest story that I can give that's relevant is my dad is a theoretical physicist and he was walking me to school when I was six he used to walk me down to about halfway and then he would leave me there he would turn left and go off to work in his lab and I would continue on and I would go pick up this young lady and can as a as a gesture of you know chivalry I suppose and I would take it we would go to school together and one day we stopped at our separation point and I said I don't know why I said it but both he and I remember very well I said you know do you like what you do and he said I love it and I said really and he said yeah you know the feeling the night before your birthday I said yeah and he said I feel like that every day whoa and wow that's really something else and I said my response was I'm gonna do what you do and then I said what do you do and he said he said he was a physicist and he studied how the natural world works and at that time he was working on Kate on chaos theory it was the early days of chaos theory and um but he said but you don't want to do what I do he said you know by time you're old enough to do science a lot of the great mysteries will be solved I think you should work on something that has more more virgin soil more untried territory and I said like what and he said the brain you know I think the brain is really interesting and someday we'll figure it out and I said well that's what I'm gonna do I'm gonna I'm gonna figure out how the brain works and so that was the first time I declared it I had no idea what I was talking about of course I've always had an interest in the natural world and in animals and animal behavior in particular predator-prey relationships are super interesting to me the kind of symbiosis between different animals and how they use different types of nervous systems so differently so like a bird use it has a nervous system that's fundamentally different from that of a like a cat except for at the deeper levels of controlling heart and breathing and things like that they use that machinery so differently and they have very different machinery and so I've always been intrigued in how humans fit into that picture what is the machinery in our heads and our and also body design that allows us to do all the incredible things that we can do and so that was kind of the early seed of it now there's another component to the story which was unpredicted and looking back I suppose was a good set of circumstances but the time was not as convenient or prescient and or predictive of becoming a scientist which was when I was I had a pretty standard childhood we had dinner together every night this was all pre-internet and say you know as a reasonably healthy happy home and then when I would turn 13 and 14 my parents divorced and it was a very high conflict divorce just like one of these situations where everyone did the best they could but it was just it was a very it just turned into a very bad situation so my dad moved out in a way my mom was at home and dealing with her own set of struggles around that and I pretty quickly stopped going to school in any kind of discipline way I was very interested at the time and involved in the skateboarding and punk rock community like very early on I decided even though I grew up playing sports like swimming and soccer you know I had a bunch of friends that start skateboarding and that mid 80s and then a lot of them quit when high school rolled around and I just kept going good friend of mine became a professional skateboarder I was like fully into that world I loved it I wasn't that good to be honest I didn't somehow I didn't have the physicality I was getting hurt a lot I just didn't perform that well but it's kind of interesting a lot of guys that grew up with a new back then went on to become professional skateboarder some of them however in that group became drug addicts a couple of schizophrenic you know there's a suicide or few in the bunch a lot of suffering this kind of thing so but I got a pretty fast streetwise education during my high school years I I wasn't going to school much at all I was skateboarding I was I was not a good student I barely finished high school and I was really struggling to figure things out but what happened was at some point I was actually removed from school and and as a condition for being let back in I had to do weekly therapy it was the only way they were gonna let me do it so I started working with with a therapist really young who because of the conditions at my in my home and the way things were going I would didn't actually have there wasn't a lot of parental oversight let's say and so he wasn't an official guardian but I really kind of turned over a lot of parenting roles to him and it was a boundary professional relationship but then he gave me a book on meditation it was actually Jon kabat-zinn this book wherever you go there you are still a very powerful read and an important book I think and kabat-zinn I think is a real pioneer in that sense he's a medical physician and was also thinking about mine this uh highly recommend that book for anyone who's short but really good and I started so now I was like doing some meditation I was going on therapy I was trying to get my life together but I was still a pretty poor student eventually I realized I I really liked the physical I like physical challenge so I started getting into running martial arts Muay Thai boxing and I started so there I was like doing some reading doing some fighting I had a girlfriend at the time and and the story basically is that I've realized I was gonna need to do something to make a living and I didn't know what I was gonna do it didn't look like I was gonna graduate high school so which in the States can be accepted in rare circumstances can really hold you back quite a lot you know we hear about these people like dropped out of college and started big companies but the truth is they got into those colleges first and then they were doing quite well which is why they left yeah you know so I was really looking for something and I had this intensity but I know what to do so I joined the I decided I was gonna become a firefighter so I start taking classes and fire science and then what happened was the the girlfriend went off to college to university and she was a year ahead of me and I basically just moved down there and lived in my car in the parking lot outside her dormitory I wasn't about to she was kind of like my family at that point I still wasn't really that close with my family and I moved down there I was at the time I was getting into a lot of fights I was I really had a lot of kind of behavioral issues going on still a lot of anger I was just really not looking anything like a future scientist at that point and what happened was I ended up I ended up once I got it was it was fourth of July 1994 I actually got into a very serious physical altercation with a bunch of guys and it was after that that I realized okay I'm like 18 years old now or you know it was 18 you know getting into fights I'm living in some random squad I'm not doing much of anything I'm working these jobs like I mean you know I realized I was like I'm in trouble you know I'm in real trouble and because at some point this was just the story was just gonna keep going this direction and there was just no nothing was going anywhere and I started to realize that whatever had happened whatever kind of family challenges that I had had I wasn't I wasn't gonna become a professional skateboarder I'd kind of separate from those friends I was not a particularly talented athlete I just realized I gotta do something you know this is just I think I was scared honestly I think I just I think I'd sort of hit my rock bottom and and I I was lucky that drugs and alcohol were never really my thing but I didn't know what to do with myself so I decided to move home and enroll in some University courses there but I decided at that point also that I would get very serious about fitness and learning and so I just started doing a lot of running a lot of weight training I learned everything I could about the mind and body I would go into the book stores and just read everything I could about fitness about psychology and I decided to take psychology classes so I took a psychology class and then eventually I went back to university I lived alone at that point and I took a class on abnormal psychology was that um which is like now they would never get away with calling it that but it was basically about schizophrenia depression disorders of the nervous system everything that Parkinson's disease these kinds of things and I was just fascinated because the guy in the class his name was Harry Carlisle as a professor was telling me about all these mechanisms in the brain and body neurotransmitters and hormones and all these kinds of things that were disrupted in these diseases that I frankly I think I had seen a lot of I saw a lot of depression I saw a lot of you know having a friend commit suicide I had friends you know who were addicts I was always fascinated by how some people just do really well just drinking on the weekends and other people become alcoholics like why it didn't make any sense and it couldn't have just been life circumstances so I was just a light bulb went on I was like this is the I'm gonna do I'm gonna do this I wanted I wanted work on this I won't understand the mind I want unders because I'd gone through my own thing of having been the kind of normal kid happy healthy childhood then everything just kind of fell apart I was depressed but I was so angry I was seeking but I you know and I was like I I want to figure this out and he must have seen something in me because that professor said hey you should come work in my lab so I joined his lab and we started doing science together and I really took to him I really throughout my career if there's anything that I can really recommend to people regardless of age is that you know finding a good mentor and mentors change over time actually when the best books I've ever read is Robert Greene's book mastery GRE en E is the author and in master he talks about like apprentice in yourself to people repeatedly and that changes over time there's a natural actual breaking up between the mentor and mentee that happens and so I just sort of apprenticed myself to this guy I don't know if he wanted me to or not I started working in his lab doing experiments we were trying to understand at that time how MDMA ecstasy impacts temperature regulation so it was kind of fun to go to parties and tell me while I was working on it we were trying to figure out why people were dying from taking it from overheating but that's a different story and and I loved it I loved I loved doing neuroanatomy I loved working with my hands I love the camaraderie of working with lab mates and you know it I'd grown up and felt I felt saved during high school by the camaraderie that was the skateboarding and punk rock community and then because I had no musical talent or skateboarding talent those guys all kind of moved on and did their own thing and now I had twenty I've reconnected with a lot of them because the 90s are kind of coming back it's another tangent we could take but I love the camaraderie like I love getting in a van and going places I love being surrounded by a pack of guys it was mostly guys you know and just going and having adventures I love adventure and I realized that science was for me because the adventure never ends you never get there's you get conclusions here along the way but if there's always that anticipation and that excitement and I'm smiling because in many ways that's what my dad I realized that just now in this moment that's what I was talking about it's like it's that novelty seeking and you know it's there and you just need to under you need just need to find it you're trying to appeal things back in layers you go too fast and you screw up so it taught me patience you know I always say the big difference between scientists and other people on the planet is that when a scientist see something that excites them they slow down because they know that in speeding up is where you make errors of judgment errors of motor errors and so I fell in love with it and there wasn't even a field of neuroscience back then so eventually it came to be called neuroscience and and I was getting good grades and I went from you know I liked it I mean oh no can I swear on this podcast every University professor I probably should do that but you know I was a student and I became a straight a you know straight a a plus student as best I could just through hard work I used to sit in my room read my textbooks and just rewrite them and rewrite them and rewrite them memorize them I used to close my eyes and memorize them I'd listen to I listen to my records and your CDs back then and just like it was like I just alternate I listen to like rancid Bob Dylan rancid Bob Dylan her husband just keep going back and forth and studying until 3:00 in the morning or whatever sleep cell 10 it was college years and I realized I had a pretty good memory and I had a knack for it and I was decent enough with my hands that could do experiments in the lab wasn't the best surgeon but I wasn't the worst either and I was like wow you know I think is it and the guy the guy Harry Carla he said you know you should should consider going to graduate school you seem to really like this stuff and they'll pay you and I was like wow so cool they pay me so now I had a direction and at that point I just that was it I was on fire you know I just I was like that's it I'm gonna get my PhD but time I'm 30 I'm gonna get a you know a faculty position my time I'm 35 I want tenure at a major university by the time I'm 40 and I just became my singular goal and a singular set of goals I should say and I loved it I formed great relationships through my scientific career there's some very interesting people neuroscience I was lucky I come up early when it was relatively small and should you know Stanford is a phenomenal place to work and very forward-thinking people are very collegial you hear a lot of bad things about science how hard it is and competitors and I was like great you know make it harder make it more competitive I just leaned into the whole thing really hard and I always worked with nice people who I also enjoy as human beings and so yeah that I've just kept at it and then as part of a this new direction that my lab has been taking and thinking about stress and thinking about high performance and also this kind of new life of you know speaking with the general public and working on books and trying to interface with the public more around science I I that is a kind of new outgrowth of my scientific career but it roots back to the early story because I have this weird karma around mentors so I have had three of the most spectacular mentors ever they're kind they were they pushed me they were tough when they need to be tough they were great people but I had this weird experience where Harry Carlisle you know greatest university lecture teacher ever I can credit him with you know being you know in the career I am today when I was in graduate school I'd left his lab moved on and I published a paper in science which is like a big win for us you know it's a tough Journal and I could I can email them and said hey you know got this paper I want to make him proud he said oh that's prate I'm really happy for you and we would be great to see you next time you're down here and then like two weeks later he blew his head off in the bathtub you know like wow which was for me was like just my devastating you know it's just like because a he was the figure he was but also I think it's because like it didn't make sense right this is the guy that taught me about all this the brain mechanisms and but it I learned that no matter how good we get at understanding things we all still have these limitations that keep us from really you know I don't know seeing our blind spots or something I don't even know the language around it you know it was tragic right you know but then what happened was I had an amazing graduate advisor an amazing postdoc advisor and so I don't know what to make of this but you know whatever entry ended up happening it's I had good career as a graduate student good career as a postdoc and then but both my graduate advisor and my postdoc got very ill and died very young so I've seen a lot of people go and I don't think we were going to start the conversation off this way but I think that you know it's interesting I I think a lot these days about about grief and like and all the stuff to hear about like trauma and stress and I realized you know like humans need help that humans need help like we're not we're really good at figuring things out we're really good at outsourcing really good at rapid progress but I realized that you know a significant contribution that my lab could make would be to devote a significant amount of our time and resources to understanding like what is stress what is how does it work what it's it's apparent in all these mental diseases depression anxiety what is it it's not always bad stress you grow from it too so I decided to convert a lot of my lab to understanding that and I've started developing ties and connections to people in the psych psychiatry department at Stanford and in the psychiatric community in the addiction community and the trauma release community in efforts to try and understand like what are people what tools are available to people out there what are people doing how can my lab contribute and so that's brought us into the worlds now of trying to understand how respiration physiology and visual neuroscience might be leveraged to help relieve suffering so the joke is you don't want me to work for you and I can have that story I can make it a little slightly more of a joke about that because all my advisers are dead and they all would have probably had a good chuckle about that one I like to think and at the same time you know like I I'm blessed to you know there's no other word for it I've been very blessed to work with these amazing people and so I I just made the decision so all this converges on three points one is I'm fascinated by the brain what it can do and how it fails I'm I'm struck by the human beings ability to do such incredible things and also to create such distorted perceptions of ourselves and others that that we can do so much harm to one another and to ourselves I just it doesn't make any sense but there must be a reason and then that brings me to the third point which is that I'm absolutely obsessed with trying to find solutions to those problems and I think that that's my that feels like my calling at this point to leverage the understanding of the brain in neuroscience to leverage an understanding what it really is to be in those states and to be close to people in those states to I don't look at neuroscience from the standpoint of being at an elite University of course Stanford is a wonderful place to work and very elite but I look at it how can what I do in my lab benefit the greatest number of people and before I'm gone because one thing is certain is at some point the Reapers coming for me hopefully later you know haven't been chucked out in much these days so hopefully later and not sooner and you know what can I do about that problem and when I when I go I want to leave behind the tools I want to leave not i/9 ideas not inspiration necessarily people get that great but tools like what real tools that people can use when they're down when they're like confused when they're in a state of lack of focus and they need to focus when they're stressed when they I want it I want to want to attack those problems and so that's that's how I'm showing up these days well that's so anyway a long answer to your question but that's that's the story and the other parts of it I wish I were making up because I spent you know because there's been a lot of misfortune in there but there's been so much more beauty and and good fortune I'm very I just everyday I feel really lucky that's a full picture thank you for yeah sharing that in yeah that opened yeah oh there it is you know a million questions have come to my mind and we definitely need to talk about the tools and we have a video about the tools to like share the breathing techniques because they stroked me but let me let me ask you because that that felt like this is the question you have like what is the reason that we make us suffer I mean there are people were sad about their work and like don't like to go there but still go there there are people who are stressed about their private situation but still stay there with a certain grit in their mind and you don't Pete these things and that really resonated with me saying like okay there is you talked about therapy you talked about tools you talked with all these things but you're a scientist so you want the facts right is there any indication you see what that could be good for it could it be good for growing doing that yeah it's a great question so I actually think that stress and when I look at something like stress or suffering I look at it from the standpoint of like what's the underlying physiology and what could this be good for right this isn't a recent evolution people have been feeling these ways for thousands of years and so if you think about stress in the following way it might make some start to make some sense so first of all if you're very hungry you haven't eaten in a long time start to feel agitated is stressful and your focus will be on food and nature designed you that way to go seek food so this arousal or stress that we're accustomed to calling it stress is was designed to leverage you towards certain behaviors and away from others have to eat a big meal you're sated you're fine to relax and in fact you who naturally relax nature design you that way to loneliness is a really interesting example where people feel so miserable but that misery was designed to get you to go find social connection inmates somehow in our modern thinking about these states we've come to the idea that if you're in a lonely stay it makes you less able or less willing to go seek out connection but that's a violation of why it was created in the first place it was created to get to moat we are naturally supposed to move away from feelings of discomfort toward things that bring us comfort and that you know you have to be selective in what you choose for comfort because you don't want to choose things that can be destructive but I really see stress and loneliness and discomfort like they not feeling good about a job or a situation as very strong signals that something needs to change and I see more misery around people remaining in situations that are not making them happy or fulfilled because you know happiness is a tricky one I think fulfilment is really what it's about I'm not happy every day but I'm very fulfilled by my work I feel I has what you know other people have referred to as meaning it feels important it feels like the right thing for my life now I think but there been times when I've been in the wrong place of their own state or the wrong job and they needed to move and I think that we are always dealing with as humans these two competing forces between disrupting people's sense of us we like people to see us and you know so much of our own recognition comes through how we perceive other people perceive us write our ideas about how others perceive us for a lot of people that really defines their self self perception and sometimes even their self-worth but to the extent that you're unhappy doing something that's a signal I'll use an example actually that I think about a lot lately which some of your listeners or viewers may resonate with which is grief so after my third advisor died and I can say this with a smile just at someone it's almost became kind of humorous I was like this is crazy right I started thinking about grief I was reading a book by Richard Fineman the great you know surely you're joking mr. Fineman the physicist and he you know he was amazing his first wife died very young and of tuberculosis and when they when he eventually passed away many years later they went to his office and they discovered tons and tons of hand letters that he had written her everyday it's incredible like he just you know and he but he described in his book that she died and he didn't really experience much grief at first but then one day he was walking by a shop and he saw a dress in the window and he thought and forgive me because I forget her name but he said oh she would love that and then it hit him all at once and it was in that story that I realized something very powerful which is that grief is literally and this isn't just an attempt to intellectualize something that grief is literally the passage of an idea of someone or something from actionable to in actionable so let's say you love your sunglasses and someone takes them or you lose them there's kind of a little meaning grief around that for a few days like you'll get over it but it's hard it takes a couple days you can't immediately just say like oh I don't care right I don't care how mindful you are it's kind of painful because they're no longer there for you now you'd say well why would you create this emotion the state that it seems so crippling like where it collapses you well if you think about any kind of evolutionarily or evolutionary or adaptive terms if somebody died and there's a body one of the worst things you can do from a health standpoint and evolution standpoint is to continue to interact with the body because bodies decompose and they carry all sorts of things that are that are bad so grief is designed perhaps this is a hypothesis to get us to move away from things that are not good for us in order to no longer act on them right took literally to put the body in the ground and so much of the grieving process I've just noticed in myself and in other people is about no you know it's hard every time I walk by when I call his office and he's not there it's painful but when when when he I'm not trying to act on going to see him it's just he's just as much present in my memory as he was the days he was alive because so it they're these things like grief and anxiety and suffering they were designed to pivot us in new directions I really fundamentally believe that I don't think there's anything in our nervous system that's extra I don't think we have the equivalent of like the appendix of the brain and I don't think it's because of the modern times that we're living that we're suffering more I think that people have always suffered in these ways so I look at grief as something as a process that's gonna take some time to move these ideas about who's actionable and what's actual into the past and that's why I can talk about these people with you know I still have emotion but it's more of joy that I got to know them then sadness now there's a there's an interesting kind of corollary to this which is very different which I'll just mention and it might come as a little shocking when I first say it but it illustrates an important principle about how the brain is built and works which is fetishes so this is not something I work on nor is it something that I'm involved in but I it's very interesting when you look at the sensation of taste you have receptors for bitter than you have receptors for sweet you also have receptors for sour and other things of course too but in general things that are sweet are things that we're willing to interact with and ingest and things that are bitter are things that kind of evoke a repulsion because it's it was evolutionarily wired that way so bitter things tend to tend to be poisonous just it's a good as they say heuristic or shorthand for avoiding poisonous things now it's very interesting that people develop these things we call fetishes which are but they don't develop them to park benches or to leaves they're almost always two things that evolutionarily are actually quite hazardous right things that are infectious right things that are dangerous so in that way even though I pass no judgment on people on human beings behavior I'm not a psychologist I had no place to it's interesting to think that like the things that we look at in society is kind of like bad tend to have a kind of a punishment of outcome in the evolutionary sense right I mean incest leads to mutations and almost everybody believes that that's bad there's this kind of sensation of disgust around it which is selected for right because of the mutations that occur when people that are too close of kin have offspring and in the same way interacting with things that are potentially in exes is is disgusting to many people right so when there's this kind of crossover that people talk about of you know sexual appetites and and things that are dangerous we kind of have there a reaction right and so it's not it's not by chance the nervous system organizes the world into things you approach things you're neutral about and things you avoid and so to pull this all around to your question if you're waking up every day and thinking like this job is not for me you're obviously not saying that this is clearly the job for you and your other endeavors you seem quite happy but when people are waking up and they're like this isn't good these are mild forms of your nervous system and telling you you need to move away from this loneliness you need to move toward social connection right putrid smell you need to move away from it right grief you need to move away from trying to act on this physical body but that's no longer here that's dead and you need to move it's okay to maintain the memory but you need to then move on and so I look at at the nervous system in the brain as a very very smart very sophisticated device that actually is doing fairly simple categorization of its an of its environment and so this is why I think the resurgence of the movement about like oh you know the gut has a brain and the heart has a brain let's I'm gonna be really honest I don't want to burst anybody's bugging but there is no brain in your stomach there is no brain in your heart it's called the nervous system your brain is connected to the rest of your body and your body's connected to your brain there is no brain body distinction there's no mind body distinction that's kind of like 1970s right the excitement is that people are starting to realize ha sometimes these sensations that I feel might actually be signals to do things and so I like to point out the extremes of yes I mentioned grief and fetishes and all these things not because I like to be to activate people but because I think they are the primordial forms of these mechanisms that were wired into us and so they they they kind of inform the more subtle cues about what those subtle cues might mean does that make sense it definitely and that's again a full picture answer with with a lot a lot of stuff to think about and when when I'm now like the question I'm having or that right now in my mind is around again these situations when you think okay I can't I see and I said I have to like reflect on that because there are a lot of sensations going on and sometimes I think we unde to like detect them so we find convenient ways to like make it nice like we get more money and then it's okay for a while and stuff like that so we kind of put it away but let's say you get into extreme situations and you don't want to react right away you're stressed out you're panicking and stuff like that and you were giving that experiment with a mice and you also do that to humans you say maybe you can reflect on that a little bit yeah okay that's a situation that's what we saw with mice and love for utility humans and and the diving in the sharks you definitely need to share that yeah so in my lab we work on mice because they can you can do exploratory types of experiments in mice that can inform where to look in humans or things you could do in humans and actually just briefly mention I love animals I have tremendous respect for animals it's just the reality that certain experiments coming down the mice that you can't do on other species and but we also work on humans and so my lab is interested in how our internal states you could call it stress but kind of states of alertness or arousal or stress interact with what we perceive in order to drive our decision-making and our behavior so we had discovery a couple years ago published in nature in 2018 where we actually gave my image that scared them they thought it was a hot coming to eat them and then either freeze or they run usually they just freeze but we found a brain area that when we stimulate it could convert the freezing response to a confrontational response the mice became more willing to lean into the stress and the cool thing was the mice actually really like that sensation it wasn't the kind of stress of like being panicked it was a stress of it was associated with a kind of reward dopamine reward and we decided to explore the same thing in humans so we also have the equivalent laboratory in humans where we scare and stress humans and not anywhere from mild to severe depending on the person using virtual reality and we've gone out I've gone out personally and helped record some of this virtual reality we look at things like Heights public speaking these kinds of cognitive tasks under stressful conditions as well as diving with great white sharks we just I figured a lot of people are afraid of sharks spiders those kinds of things and I have a good friend who's a professional shark diver Michael Mahler his famous photographer who also does a lot of cage X at shark diving not something to go do on your own you need that there's a certain set of skills required to not get eaten but we would go out to Guadalupe Mexico I've been out there twice now I take boats out there it's about 22 hours drop cages in the water one cage at the surface one cage forty feet below you're on scuba down below and then we got permits from the Mexican government to cage X it's actually legal to do but we got permits because we're doing some research with it and it turns out the way to not get eaten by a great white shark is to swim at them so they come in lumbering in groups of one two three and they line you up and you're tracking them and what's really interesting as soon as you're watching one for a little while you'll remember to look down and you'll see another ones coming it's coming and pick you off they went gonna put you in its mouth and they are very large very fast very agile in the water but also very curious animals and so we went down there and filmed a VR experience of that so if you come to my lab to be a subject can I plug the lab with you we actually pay you so it's not before prom can do that if so in fortunately have to actually come to the lab but we can't do this remotely but if you come to my lab we you can experience all this in virtual reality while we measure your breathing your heart rate and your pupil size different aspects of stress response and then we also teach some interventions for stress that I'll talk about in a few minutes we pay you a nominal amount I think it's like 40 US dollars a parking pass tshirt was kind of yeah it's a lot of fun it takes about two hours you can find us just send me a DM at Huberman lab is my Instagram instantly I also do these daily neuroscience post on Instagram we talked about that later but it may be but anyway that's how you get ahold of us if you want it we'd love to have you as a subject we look at people who have generalized anxiety and so-called typicals or who don't and we've learned a lot from that we've learned that patterns of breathing and vision change dramatically under conditions of stress not surprisingly but also that breathing and vision can be used as interventions for stress the sharks are just one aspect of that and that also kind of ties into I have these interest in I've tried to have as much get as much information as I could from people who are very good at navigating high stress high uncertainty environments people you know elite military people shark diving community climbers and so forth because I think there's a lot to be learned from people that are very good at dynamically controlling their stress level you know you don't want to be somebody who is always disengaged you don't want to be somebody who's always hyper focused you want to be able to engage and disengage as necessary for the tasks that you go through so are the tools that I've been working on and these are still tools in progress involved both breathing respiration and use of the visual system and should we talk about those so you know there's a lot of interest nowadays in breath work the great wim HOF obviously is probably something similar yes coming tomorrow and and your breath work is a very powerful way for people to get acquainted with their kind of internal workings and nervous system and the fact that they have some degree of control over their nervous system so you know mindfulness meditation is wonderful and I've been doing it for years and still get a tremendous amount of benefit from it but it takes a long time to for most people to kind of get disciplined about it and to really extract the the power of it and so respiration for many people not all is a quicker route into understanding this notion of autonomic control autonomic just means automatic and it's kind of a misnomer because you can actually control it but for instance a few years ago I decided to start looking at like what are the breath work practices out there what are people doing and really trying to extract principles from them so that we could distill it down to things that are really straightforward so I'll just throw out a few of those because it would take a few hours to go into all of them and some people in the cart could do that right people the cart to do it that's right good good and and I'm not withholding but you know I'm working on a book about the vision and breathing tools as well as some other tools should be out in 2020 but right now here are some things that I think could be helpful to most people breathing through your nose allows you to remove carbon dioxide well and a lot of people find that by restricting themselves to nasal breathing unless they're eating or talking they can they can feel calmer and better just simple now the reason for that is that the nose for many people is a better way to get rid of carbon dioxide now you breathe because you need carbon dioxide people think you breathe to get oxygen and you do but the brain senses carbon dioxide levels going up and that causes the breath reflex this is how free divers stay underwater a very long time they train themselves to let out their carbon dioxide slowly while staying calm very dangerous sport tough to somebody he really knows what they're doing before you get involved in that sport or just don't do it at all but for most of us and for those of us above water because you don't want to do breath work in your water that the simple behavior of restricting your breathing to nasal breathing most of the time can be immensely beneficial in fact there were two papers published in very good journals and there are science journals looking at the effects of nasal vs. mouth breathing on learning and memory and enhanced learning and memory and these are good studies not done by my lab done by other groups and not just memories for odors which people always say what because one of them was but also of memories for other things so nasal breathing it's a good tool the other thing is that oftentimes we're told when we get stressed just take a deep breath but actually that's the wrong thing to do what you want to do when you're stressed is to take a long exhale you want to get rid of carbon dioxide a lot of the stress response is because of a failure to adequately regulate carbon oxide best example this is I can put you in a small box or elevator and start slowly removing the oxygen flow to the point where there's just enough and if you're breathing too fast you're you're not you're actually not blowing off carbon dioxide because by breathing fast you're taking in air and but you're not getting rid of a lot of the carbon dioxide so long exhales can calm you and a lot of people just report immediate relief in taking this long exhale in particular long nasal exhales okay the other thing that can be quite good is you know understanding that the opposite is also true that if you inhale more than you exhale generally the tendency is for your level of alertness or autonomic arousal to go up this is why when you go to Las Vegas Nevada you go into a casino you were kind of tired you were up all night and all of a sudden you're alert you feel good now sure there's social context there's no clocks and things but they're pumping the air full of oxygen that can make sense right so this is why you know cyclists and other people you know if you get knocked out one of the first things they do the ambulance shows up the medic shows up and they put an oxygen mask on you this is just basic physiology but we've kind of forgotten it in our attempt to create these tools for improving ourselves that more oxygen in your gonna tend to be more alert blowing off carbon dioxide by long exhales and particularly long nasal exhales can be very very powerful and tools like wim HOF breathing I don't know if you'll get a chance to interview wim HOF but if he can great if not his tools generally involve doing a combination of high oxygenated breathing and some breath holds the breath holds get start getting into some nuance and a little more complicated around breathing but one tool that I think is really great is was created by a former Navy SEAL by the name of Mark Devine de VI ng whose lives in Encinitas and he that he calls box breathing which is inhale for a certain duration like anywhere from you know two to five seconds exhale sorry inhale hold exhale hold so it's like a box and then of equal duration so it might be inhale for three hold for three XL for three whole for three and repeat that if you want to say well how long well mark would probably say that that's a good practice to do any time for a few minutes but that you can actually do that while you're engaging in behavior as long as you're not talking right so box breathing tends to keep people in kind of a balanced ratio of oxygen and carbon dioxide such that your alertness is there your focus is there it's not going to make you particularly sleepy or particularly alert it's kind of a nice even plane of focus for for doing work and you know have a credit to mark for for that one of the first people that I'm aware of that started coming up with really specific breathing protocols that could tell you exactly how to do it but all this boils down again to some very just natural biology of our nervous system which is when we're relieved or tired we tend to what we sigh it's relaxing the whole body follows the exhale response when we're startled or we're shocked we inhale in preparation excuse me in preparation to get the body mobilized to go do something I'm gonna call for excuse me I am not breathing enough so respiration or breathing is a very powerful way to modify your state of internal levels of stress and it's completely free available at all times unless you're in water a breath working water is it can be a very dangerous relationship so I don't recommend doing it at all near water before going into water and then the more extreme forms of breath work like breath work release work for trauma release those are generally best done with a practitioner but those generally involve going into high oxygenated States and getting people comfortable in stressful States so everything I've said so far it's kind of about well if you don't feel good about something you should move away from it you know but there's also the other reality which is sometimes there's kind of pain and growth right there's this sort of strain I remember learning in my textbooks and being so confused I mean for a kid that didn't go to school very much to then be faced with all these like science and chemistry courses I was just making up so much lost territory that I had to really strain I mean it felt like lifting heavy weights excuse me I didn't catch my breath moment don't worry so there we go so the strain and pain of studying or the strain and pain of exercise and these kinds of things we know we grow from that we adapt so one has to find that place that really important distinction between what is a message that is very clear to move away from something that it's bad and what is a message to move towards something and this I think is actually one of the most fundamental questions that anyone can ask themselves because ultimately there will be a tremendous amount of information out there and inspiration and ideas for how when we lean into stress we can grow I mean there's so many great examples right and you know Alex Honnold you know climbing you know El Cap without ropes you know I david Goggins running and pushing himself the way he does I mean wim and what he does I mean there's this question right when do you trust your thoughts about no that's just not for me too painful too hard just not interested and when do you say wait I'm not leaning into life the way that I should I need to move through it that's a fundamental question that everyone has to answer for themselves and it gets to very important in kind of bigger questions about meaning because I didn't I'll be the last person to say that you should just do something because it's difficult but I also know like for in the last year for instance gotten really into a friend of mine also former SEAL team guy I wasn't in the SEAL Teams but he was just so when I say also I mean in addition to David and some of these other folks it's got me really into doing long open water no wetsuit swims in Southern California it's quite cold it's early in the morning anywhere from one to five mile swims these are very long swims for me anyway and I've grown I feel like I've grown tremendously as a human being from doing those but from pushing myself and now I love them I look forward to them I enjoy it if on you know last year you had said hey how do you feel about getting in a cold water at 6:30 in the morning without a wetsuit and swimming for a couple miles like I don't know about like what's why but now I understand why so there's growth there I've had great insights during those swims I love the camaraderie I realize I can do things I didn't think I could do there's a lot of carryover into other aspects of my life we care about the friendship so one has to really ask the question is this gonna grow me that's the question is this gonna grow me and so for me like cage exit shark diving could have killed me but I decided this is gonna grow me it's gonna make me a better person and the tools I'm gonna bring back to the lab will be in service to humanity so that's the key question otherwise we would all just default towards what feels good at that so it's a it's a hard question answer and it can only be answered on an individual basis you know what just drives me is we had a podcast 100 I told you off the guy for the effect man who came up with the name your work mm-hm and I'm trying to connecting a lot of thoughts here right now which is which is great you spark a lot of interesting stuff in my mind right now but let's say there is a situation and you either like the mice you freeze or you like run away or you fight but in a panic mode not only good more more in a distraction mode so let's say you have a tool that can help you to then like the breathing for example to stay in this situation to make this decision and listen to your inner voice like as you said awake they say or like alert but at the same time come to make a proper decision is that something how it could work because what pretty upset for example and you work in like trying to find out what you really really want to do in your life and this can like relate to work situation but also to a personal situation he said it's not about pleasure pleasure you get it everywhere sure that's easy it's about this question what you really want to do and this can include stepping out of a comfort zone and like doing the swim staying in a situation work on yourself I mean how difficult can a relationship be super difficult as you said and it can be and it can be harmful to too many people and then the question is do I walk away and that when I say this my moment to walk away do I stay in this is just the same is the same with a job it's it's a very it's not just a serious question I think it's the most important question that anyone can learn to answer for themselves I really believe this because I think so much of life is about you know one point I had to decide look I'm gonna quit being a loser I was a loser right I mean the fact that matter as I was getting in fights I wasn't making much money how it's just like going you know and but then school was hard work and at any moment I could just says too much work but I set a goal and I I was just determined like in it was it was kind of survival mode for me at that point because I just I knew what it was like to be really down and out and I just was never gonna go there again incidentally when you decide whenever you say or I say the words I'm never gonna go there again you find yourself there again but in some new form and that's also just that's just nature's diabolical trick of making sure that you never get too sure of yourself but that's good what you learn in the process of transformation of like going from some through a challenges you you learn how to move through a challenge I think that that's why early on I think it's good to move through challenge and at any stage of your life it's good to move through it because that process can be exported to the new job to the new relationship the idea that you're gonna leave a relationship and the next one's gonna be easy is a fallacy like you're gonna it can be easier but hopefully you're gonna export what you learned so I think there's a I think there's a rational answer or there's a a set of principles that one could apply to answer the question better perhaps and I think it has to do with the perception of time so this was sparked by a conversation with a good friend of mine who also happens to be doing incredible work on trauma release and healing he's in Florida his name is Ryan suave SOA ve and he's very quiet an understated guy but he's helped a number of people addicts and people in high-performance it stuff move through some mental blocks I've seen him do incredible work that this addiction treatment center with other folks I just went there to observe what he does and he said something to me once which was really incredible he said is he's used to seeing people like in a state of rage or you know or can't handle anything you know you can handle us all just ASEA so you can handle a feeling of sadness for one second right extreme sadness for one second so why not ten seconds so why not 20 why not an hour what is it that collapses people you know it's like the same thing for an addict you know they like why can't they handle it for and I think it's because mental illness addiction grief they have this this strange property they make it feel not just that it's happening now but that it's gonna either go on forever or that's gonna come back I think this is the thing that fear that scares people more than anything that sure I'm gonna change jobs but then it's gonna be the same thing or I'll do it but all fail or I'll succeed but then I'll be unhappy despite having succeed so you know that's the circumstances vary but I think what it relates to however is this perception of time there's something about fear that changes our perception of time and anxiety that changes our perception of time so and it does there's actually a physiological mechanism whereby if something suddenly enters our environment and we're afraid of it it our attention narrows and though and our ability or the way we start chunking time in processing time it seems like hard events seem like they go on forever because you're slicing more finely you're looking at it through a course you know through a finer lens and when things are good time passes like you know you don't even notice time passing by this is what some people refer to as flow right right it's like everything is good and you're just time just passes you don't even notice the passage of time the opposites when you're stressed you're waiting for a diagnosis or your text that's currently critical or you're just in pain it feels like it goes on forever so there's a hint there so as a scientist I would say like there's a hint there that something about the contraction and dilation of time perception is what's getting in is what's getting involved and therefore that's the thing that we should try and understand and so you say okay well how do we start morphing our perception of time well our states are internal states change our perception of time if you've ever driven someplace you knew where you were going time kind of passes you can attend to other things if you don't know where you're going you're looking for landmarks it feels like it takes much longer that's because as you search through your environment and tighten your focus you're chopping up time is that there as there's there's there you're waiting your is literally it's like a metronome don't think of time when we talk about time this way if people think oh three o'clock four o'clock five o'clock that's not how I'm referring to it the brain doesn't think three o'clock four o'clock five o'clock brain thinks like a metronome so it's either you're in a good state you're out with somebody you really enjoy you're having a good time and it's more like you turn around you're like wow it's nine o'clock oh my god it says if the metronome goes really slow you know really slow or so the the stress state is the one where it's going tick tock tick tock tick tock it's the one that's bringing you to this mode of attention where you're anticipating the next thing and therefore it feels like he goes on very long it just means even though the metronome is moving faster there are many more of them more ticks and tocks and so it feels like Mork so it feels like time is going more slowly right whereas when it goes very when the metronome goes more slowly tik tok tik tok that interval timer is going more slowly and it seems like time goes faster okay so your musicians will understand this I'm not a musician but this kind of because the brain has an interval timer and so high stress hard emotions tend to make it feel like things are going really really slowly and so every moment is painful and so the ways to then address these questions about what should I do or how should I treat this situation are to get good at bringing your nervous system into states where your alert and calm because you need the focus you need the ability to think about the problem people that continually avoid the problem through alcohol or distraction are in trouble to rights the failure of most relationships where people are stressed about the relationship they go look for a new one right when because thinking about it and the grief that's incoming potentially is very hard but if you can stay calm with those thoughts calm with the idea of what it would be about like to leave the job what it would be like in the new thing and not quickly run back into your hole like the mouse in our experiments like but no it's just gonna be the same thing all over if you can stay out there in the arena mentally you can do yourself a great service and trying to parse through the thinking about what you really want to do and this is actually kind of what happens in therapy where somebody starts pulling on that thread little by little and you realize in reporting the story like oh my goodness it's all internal it's all in here it's not that like Tim Ferriss has said this right a bunch of times like what's the worst that can happen or like you know do what does he call it I forget I haven't looked at his stuff in a while but the sort of life is fear fear right right the fear thing right like like what's the worst that can happen thing in and I think that's kind of what we're talking about a little bit you start getting into those modes of projecting but you start speeding up your thinking it's actually interesting to hear people talk about these things in first here they go yeah and then I leave but the but but then but then what it and they kind of is I jump to the end if this were a story you're like you just skipped 50 pages what are you doing so I think the ability to wade into the water and kind of sort through this stuff and the moment you start feeling your anxiety going up learning to calm yourself through maybe long exhale breathing or and being able to calm yourself then you can start working through a mental process in a way that's much more intelligent and structured and frankly serves you better you serve as the person better and so I think that's the key because what you're really doing is you're changing the time perception and I am completely dismissive of the idea that just by going and taking some pill or some drug you're suddenly going to wake up able to you know confront the thing differently I think you might have fundamentally changed yourself but not in a way that that serves you in the long run I think that the ability to I mean long walks or hikes without cell phones can be very powerful for this because it forces you to enter a state where you kind of have to to ruminate or think about the thing and we as human beings we work so hard to avoid that so I think time perception and the ability to control time perception is one of the power tools that people can use to try and sort through a problem in a very dedicated and kind of trustworthy way I know one thing for sure which is that I don't trust the thinking that it balls out of high stress it usually is the wrong kind of thinking it's what you're tied to kind of reactive response and I mean phones are definitely not helpful phones are definite area I'm from Silicon Valley born and raised in Palo Alto and was their first Apple store on University Avenue I leave I love the phone I use the phone but here's the problem you know normally we would have an interaction like this and then we would walk and you know 20 years ago and then we were kind of let our vision and expand and we walk back you'd get some relaxation in between things now I think where we reflexively I do this too so I'm not you know immune from this I would reflexively look at my phone in between meetings reflexively look at my phone you go to the women won't know this because they're not in the men's restrooms but the men's restroom people are looking at their phone while they're at the urinal you know I just it's amazing right it's like we're we're we're the water damage from the pits right so and so it's just incredible we we are we're we're using up a valuable resource which is our attention in addition to that we're giving up a valuable resource which is this nature pre-installed mechanism of relaxing our nervous system as we transition between things people who are very high-functioning in life I've noticed are very good at transitioning between states I've wondered somehow I've got some colleagues who are phenomenal scientists phenomenal parents phenomenal athletes there aren't many of these people but they you know and it's incredible their power of attention is what they're doing they're doing but they're also very good at pivoting between things and I notice that they don't tend to look at their phones as they pivot they don't tend to be they tend to disengage as they switch in order to re-engage and I find that that's actually a what I'm working on these days for myself it's not just about getting engaged it's about getting disengaged to able to reengage and if from an athlete's perspective you'd say of course it's like no self-respecting athlete is going to just train all the time rest and recovery are a fundamental part of their their regimen for people who use their mind you know entrepreneurs academics scientists or musicians etc creatives you're like an athlete you're a mental athlete so you need to install those transitions the recovery transitions I love that so I could go on for another hour we just hit an hour oh yeah always I joke it's always a danger to ask so they're two questions you never want to ask a professor one is what do you do and the second thing is you never want to say take as long as you need because they'll do so I apologize this is perfect because like like I just an experience you on the stage and we have different aspects here and it's so helpful I mean for me it was helpful and I don't care too much about what it is anyone else thinking I'm just asking this I'm curious about it more appreciative frustrated and honest in these questions but one thing I definitely always try to ask especially Michael at once in my mind partner in podcasts always make sure and asking is like what's your source of inspiration is it reading is it something else and if it's reading what are your tongue recommended books for example so two sources that may or may not surprise people animals so I loved I was talked a little bit about this at the beginning but I I can spend hours watching animal behavior and not in zoos I'm not a big fan of large carnivores and stuff in zoos it just kind of makes my heart sink and yeah no disrespect to the recovery of endangered species that do zoos are new in because they're doing great work but I I look at animal forms a lot so there's a great Instagram I don't know the guy at all no relation to him Joel Sartori that's a sa RT o re he has a project called I think it's called the the art project where he's photographing as many she can to try and document when he takes these incredible photographs of them I love their shapes I love the way they move I love their coloration patterns well I sometimes just go on youtube and watch diving birds hunt and like or like predators hunter sometimes I love camouflage I love thinking about the way that the nervous system and the body plan interact and I just I so I think about I I collect antique animal art so my house has all these pictures that no one else cares about but I love so much so going into cities and looking for that stuff so like because I think they have a lot of clues to offer about how the human the human brain is specialized and can work so that's one major source of information inspiration I love all things William Wegman the guy who dresses up the weimar and her dogs in Germany flavor on her dogs brilliant guy just I love animals to the extent that it's almost pathologic but whatever so that's where I get a lot of inspiration because it gets me up and the inspiration is very specific it's not science per se but it gives me an emotional lift that makes me happy to be alive and then I want to go work and because there's days I'm human there days I wake up and I'm like I just feel like garbage I don't I don't feel like doing anything there's days where I'm like I could literally just sit here all day I don't know what's wrong and then I'll go watch a Wegman thing or look at I have a bulldog named Costello I'll interact with him a little bit or I'll think about animals and kind of some of their quirks and behaviors and I immediately want to go work so that's one and the other ones a typical for a scientist I suppose is you know music I grew up on loud fast music and I'm not talking metal and I'm not talking about you know garbage music like I plug in the headphones and I just go back to that place where I'm 14 15 year-old kid and I'm pissed off and I'm happy and I'm like and I've got like that little adventure in me and I just wanted want to go out and like search and search and destroy and I just and I just you know and it fills my nervous system and I want to just go and I feel like and so both things I'm just realized no one's ever asked me this question before so I'm grateful for the question because I'm learning from here my response that what I want is the thing that makes me like like I love the hunt like I love that feeling of like I'm here for the short while on this planet like let's go you know if I have like two words that like are my mantra it's let's go you know I just I want the adventure I want the hunt and I my hunt is science and it's and it's figuring out these tools that can help people help themselves and so yeah I'll flip through my books of animals and look at the rhinoceros you know he's got the biggest feet and there's something trivial like that and I'll you know put in the headphones listen to some old stiff little fingers tracks or some rancid like and I'm good and then I put on my Professor costume I go to work and I discovers that I love that so so you know give me give me the last one some of our youngest listeners around the age of eight nine oh wow so that's how y'all know care so they won't know any of the music that's okay what would you like not many people have the privilege of this feeling you you transported when you share it this morning with your dad and he said hey do you know the feeling before your birthday I mean it's I could I could almost cry when you share that I could say you know what this is so good what would you share with them yeah so eight or nine you're still well within the neuroplasticity window you're good you got a lot of there's a lot a lot of good years ahead so I would say you know I really believe and I don't have any scientific data to support this but I really believe that we all have some superpower so I love the x-men so I really believe that we all have some superpower that reflects maybe this is a bit of a scientific explanation that reflects the fact that our biology is tilted in some direction people often things about their biology being tilted in a direction that doesn't serve them like awe you know my parents were this or my you know when I'm not a good athlete or whatever but it's also tilted in the direction of something really special so like when I was a kid of that age I was fascinated by animals I was like might and so had I learned to listen to that more I used to hide my interest in animals then I thought it was kind of not it wasn't cool like I didn't play the guitar in college I didn't surf my oh I like like I can tell you all these facts about mustelids then ferrets like what good is that but like you know but I think that kind of leaning that kind of tilt towards like hah like that's me like you resonate with something and I'm not the first to say this I think Robert green also said this like there's a adults will often remember back to a time where they interacted with something sometimes it's an object or sometimes it's an experience and it just felt so good like it it kind of dropped drew you in I would tell your young listeners too and viewers to really pay attention to that it can seem almost trivial like it's rarely about the thing you're looking at or the thing you're doing but sometimes it's the sensation of running sometimes it's it's it's the sensation of viewing seeing something or hearing something because there's a hint there and it's that it's not really about what you're looking at or you're doing it's that feeling like learn it that feeling is your compass like that's your TrueNorth because that's the feeling you want to get to for to find you know the mate for your life the you know the partner for your life the the career track and over time you're gonna pivot right I mean you're not gonna get it on the first try I eventually my story science started there it told me right there I felt it in that conversation with my dad and then my compass was all over the place and spinning and eventually it's it's come back I found it but getting and get in touch with that feeling and if this seems at all abstract I would do it as an experiment I would sit in a chair and I would think about something you don't like like really don't like and I would pay attention to what that feels like in your mind and in your body I'm not a very somatic person I'm not somebody who like feels stuff at the level of the body I've always felt like my emotion through my head so when people die got like their emotions in there other places I just so I don't get it but I would encourage them to think about that and then I would encourage them to think about something they really like it could be rollercoasters could be music could be get specific and to get in touch with that feeling and that feeling is your guide that feeling is your compass because the nervous system it's not mystical the Mervis system will orient toward the things that it's best equipped to do it really well and I really animals do this naturally my bulldog Costello never tries to be a different kind of dog he never fetched once first time I threw the ball he walked to the ball he sat down with the ball he destroyed the ball because that's what Bulldogs do you know throw to retriever they bring it back because the brain of the retriever is wired to feel good by retrieving it and the brain of the Bulldog is good to feel good by being horizontal with and pulling on things with there they like to tug so I think humans we're so we're similar enough but we're different in the sense that you have something installed in you that feels right and getting in touch with that feeling is key and you're not and I should tell that there's an you're not gonna get it right away this is a practice you learn like shooting basketballs or or math you do it over and over so that but if you get started young at eight or nine oh my goodness great and if you do it when you're twelve or even if you're you're sixty and you do this you'll find that pretty soon you start steering in these directions and I I do believe it's a nervous I think are it's a neural there's a real physical substrate for this I it's not mysticism so thank you and have fun that's what I would tell them this was one of the best coincidence to get to know you today and yesterday thank you that's very gratifying thanks so much you so much for the invitation and for your questions they really they really stimulated and pushed me hard to think hard so thank you I really admire what you do and I appreciate encourage everyone to follow you on Instagram yeah here at cube urban lab H UB er MA an la B and we also share the breathing yeah I've got some tools there I do it a every other day or so I put out a a one minute neuroscience fact post and I also refer to some interesting findings in high performance and in mental health and you can reach me there through a direct message and if you're in the San Francisco area and you want to be a subject in one of our experiments great and yeah that's awesome I'm up to these days thank you great thank you so much

Channel: Christoph Magnussen

Views: 166,596

Rating: 4.9382744 out of 5

Keywords: EO, EO Unlimited, Stanford, Neuroscience, Work, New Work, Huberman Lab, Neurobiology, University, Research, OTWTNW, On The Way To New Work, Talk, Hamburg

Id: FVzvpo1aw4k

Length: 72min 58sec (4378 seconds)

Published: Tue Jul 02 2019