Why 6.5 or 6 mm dominate the .308 Winchester? - Long Range Lectures

thanks for tuning in the longer choosing Utah tonight we're going to address a question that is a very common one asked through our Facebook page and group regarding caliber selection now I think most people get into long-range shooting a lot the same way that I did basically I grew up shooting and hunting and finally decided you know what I see these military movies I see these guys making these crazy amazing shots at great distances I want to learn how to do that naturally the first place you go to research those things is military snipers what kind of rifles are they shooting what calibers are they shooting they're obviously highly trained how can I get myself similar equipment and be able to you know perform these same amazing shots that they do with that in mind I think a lot of newer shooters or shooters are new long-range come into our group seeking more information and seeking to learn how to do these things and they're very surprised to see that the cartridges that they researched that the military used are not always the same that the guys in our group are shooting now in particular the 308 Winchester and the 6'5 whether it be a six five cream or 260 Remington or 6500 47 is the warming most commonly see question so we have guys coming in saying hey why should I get a six five over a 308 well there's a lot of reasons why for one there's no perfect tool for every scenario for the things that most the guys in our group are doing the 6'5 tend to be a better fit for those needs then a 308 would so I'm going to go through a little bit of that today we're going to address this from a couple different angles first of all ballistically how do these different cartridges that are common especially the six 5s versus the 308 and also a six millimeter how do they compare ballistically what applications are there what kinds of pros and cons what see by using one over the other so to start out let's talk about the ballistics this little graph is something I drew up to kind of show you a little bit the difference between these three cartridges now the three cartridges I chose to compare are the 308 obviously second to that would be the 65 by 47 Lapua that's going to represent our six five family keep in mind that you're often going to hear about the six five cream or the two 60 Remington and the 65 by 47 they are all incredibly similar ballistically almost all of them people are going to shoot a hundred and forty grain bullet out of they're going to use the same powder they're going to get very similar velocities they're just doing it a little bit different format that's it of those three I chose the six five by forty seven because that's what I shoot and they're all so close for the six millimeter category I chose the six by forty seven Lapua which is simply a six five by forty seven that's been neck down to shoot a six millimeter bullet in most cases just like 140 grain bullet is the most popular among the six five shooters the 105 grain bullet is typically the most popular for the six millimeter shooters now the most common six millimeter cartridge for most people that haven't been a long range game for a long time would be the 243 Winchester now for a lot of people they think 243 that's they never think about as being a long-range cartridge today I think you're going to realize that it's an excellent excellent long-range cartridge so those are the three we're going to compare the 308 Winchester the 65 by 47 Lapua and the 65 are the six by forty-seven Lapua as well other ones to consider besides a 243 would be this six Creedmoor which is obviously a six five cream or neck down to a six all very similar so the way that I've broken this down we've got color coding here we've got the 308 in red we've got the six five by forty seven in green and we've got the six by 47 in purple the left side of the graph over here represents the drop of the bullet the bottom horizontal portion represents the yardage so for our purposes we have the zero drop at the top and then we've got 1800 inches of drop at the bottom now why did I choose inches there's a reason I could have picked mils I could have picked minutes of angle but a lot of guys that use on the MOA are not going to understand mils or is not going to quantify well same thing the other way around inches is something I think we can all associate with and understand so I've done this in inches the yardage is across the bottom start out at 0 and go out to 2,000 yards for our purposes the ballistic information that I have is from 0 to 1600 yards but I think that's going to be plenty to show up the whole point behind this so starting out let's talk about drop then we're going to go through wind drift we're going to talk about recoil will talk about barrel life we'll talk about cost and also application what are we going to use these or what scenarios are these different cartridges going to be better suited for ok so diving right in let's talk a little bit about the ballistics of the three rounds that were comparing first of all let's just review the three that we're comparing we've got the 308 Winchester the e round that we're going to be using for this diagram will be 168 grain bullet traveling at 20 750 feet per second for the 6 v variant we're going to use the 6 v by 47 Lapua it's going to be shooting 140 grain bullet at 2,800 220 150 feet per second for the 6 millimeter we're going to use the 6 millimeter by 47 Lapua which is simply a 6 v that's been neck down to the 6 millimeter in that rifle we're going to be shooting a 105 grain bullet at 30 150 feet per second now take into consideration that both the 6 5 and the 6 millimeter they're not the only cartridges out there that are very popular amongst our group they're going to be extremely similar ballistically to the for the 6'5 version the 260 Remington as well as a 6'5 cream or six five cream or probably being the most commonly most commonly known among shooters that are new to the sport now the six by forty seven once again is just a neck down version of the six five you also have the six cream bar which is a neck down six five cream or and then you have the 243 Winchester as well would be a great six millimeter option all of those are going to be very very similar ballistically so we'll just use these for our comparison on the vertical column here we have inches of drop you can use minutes of angle you could use mill radians but for our purposes just so we're on a common ground I've chose the inches from the top here this is zero inches of drop this is where the muzzle would be when you're firing the shot and then as it proceeds out to the right this horizontal column or horizontal row represents the yardage so I've got 200 yards 400 yards 600 yards all the way out to 2,000 yards inches have dropped me at 0 at the top with 1,800 inches of drop over here at the bottom as we look at these sheet cartridges I've color-coded them to make a little easier I'm going to go ahead and just start out here at 1,000 yards so at 1,000 yards our 308 is going to have three hundred and forty four inches of drop our six five is going to have two hundred and eighty six inches of drop and the six millimeter is going to have two hundred and eighteen inches of drop so you're already starting to see those differences at thousand yards moving on to 1200 yards which is typically about the maximum distance that you'll see at tactical matches you don't typically see it too much further than that you're going to see the 308 drop 567 inches the six five four hundred and forty-one inches and the six millimeter 300 56 inches so you've got over a hundred inches of drop difference between the 308 and the six five and the six five and the six millimeter I would bet that most newer shooters are going to be very surprised by that data that it's that significant of a difference between those three rounds now as you think about it clearly you're shooting a much bigger bullet and you're shooting it slower so it shouldn't come as surprise that the drop is that considerable but I think it's still going to be impressive for a lot of newer shooters as we move on up here we'll go to 1,400 yards at 1,400 yards the 300 weights could have 884 inches of drop once again almost a little more than a hundred inches less drop would be the 65 and once again even more than a hundred inches less than that would be the six millimeter moving out to our max distance for this comparison at 1600 yards you've got thirteen hundred and twenty inches of drop in the 308 you've got eleven hundred and sixty inches of drop in the 65 and 800 inches of drop in the six millimeter another important portion of this to consider would be at what point the velocity of the bullet is going to drop to such a level that it's going to go through we call the transonic phase so at about 1,100 feet per second is typically when the bullet is going to transition from being supersonic to subsonic when that happens there's going to be some effect on the bullet as that continues to slow down the bullet is going to lose even more and more stability until it becomes less and less accurate so you want to take into account where that transonic zone begins or where it's going to go through the sound barrier because after that point you could potentially start losing significant stability and losing accuracy with these three cartridges it's important to note that the 308 given the bolt we're shooting and the speed we're shooting at is going to go through the sound barrier and go transonic at thirteen hundred and fifty yards okay the other two bullets the five by 47 is going to go transonic at about 1700 yards and the six millimeter is even beyond that so another thing to take in account the faster speed flyer shooting is going to allow you to stay supersonic longer and therefore have greater accuracy at those greater distances moving on to wind drift now that's also a factor that we need to consider if we're shooting typically in a tactical match your targets are going to be you know anywhere let's say it a thousand yards some matches that I've shot in your thousand-yard targets are typically going to be anywhere from you know 12 to 18 inches wide if you've got that significant of a difference between the different calibers that could be the difference of aiming one target right there aiming four or five targets to the right to compensate for the wind it's going to be a lot easier if you have a smaller margin of error so to look at these the comparison that I did here for the three calibers would be in a thousand yards 1,200 yards and 1,500 yards with a ten mile an hour full value with full value meaning that it's coming directly perpendicular to your shot so directly from the three o'clock or the nine o'clock position and having the fullest effect on your bullet for the 308 and a thousand yards you're going to see roughly 59 inches of drift and a 10 mile an hour wind at 1200 ERG and 90 inches of drift and at 1500 you've got a hundred and fifty three inches of drift that's a ton if we look at the 65 by 47 in comparison you've got 54 inches of drift 80 to 139 for the six 506 by forty seven you've got 50 inches of drift so about 10 inches difference between those two seventy six inches of drift at twelve hundred and one hundred and thirty two inches of drift at 15 yards another factor to take into account a little less margin of error to deal with those six five and six millimeter recoil recoil is an extremely important part of choosing a certain caliber a lot of guys will come into our group new and there will be accustomed to a 300 Win Mag or a 7mm or they'll come in and say hey I'm brand new to long range shooting never shot beyond 500 yards before I want to get a rifle I already have a 7mm or a 300 Win Mag why wouldn't I just use that for those distances ballistically those bigger magnums are awesome you're going able to shoot further than you are with some of the smaller calibers however you're also going to take on a great deal more recoil for a new shooter especially that isn't trained on the fundamentals of how to manage that recoil how to stay on target how to be able to get back and spot their own shots it's really going to be a detriment to the shooter that's another big reason why guys that are in a long range game will gravitate towards the six five by forty seven or the six millimeter cartridges simply because the recoil is so much more manageable even within the precision rifle series there's been a kind of an exodus if you will away from the 65 into the six millimeter they're both very very popular by far the two most popular rounds in the series however the six millimeter is gaining a lot more ground of late because of that reduced recoil on that same note a lot of guys in position rifle series will shoot suppressed a lot of them are now gravitating towards shooting with a muzzle brake instead part of that is the biggest reason behind that is because of the recoil obviously have a suppressor is great everybody's running suppressed it's really great because no one has to wear ear muffs potentially but recoil wise it is not going to reduce the recoil of your of your rifle as much as a good muzzle brake will so we are seeing a trend towards more folks shooting a muzzle brake than even shooting suppressed because they want to be able to you know spot their own shots they want to be able to walk watch the trace of their bullet you know right from when they fire all the way into the target so they can make a better follow up shot so recoil is a very important piece of this equation and that particular scenario the 6-millimeter is definitely the champion it's going to have a lot more a lot less felt recoil than even the 65 and definitely the 308 moving on to barrel life this is another important thing to consider and really one of the key areas where the six millimeter and the six five are going to have a disadvantage to the 308 so this is one area where you know you might recommend that a newer sugar go with a 308 especially if they're on a tight budget which a lot of shooters are by and large people don't get into this sport and just have all the money in the world to blow on the fanciest equipment most of us it takes years and years and years of saving and scrimping and selling things and buying things to order to to get quality equipment that we're looking for so with that in mind when you're shooting a 308 you're looking at you know as much as 5,000 - even more than that when it comes to rounds down the tube before you start losing accuracy now this barrel life question may come as a surprise to some newer shooters I think a lot of them are very you know surprised to hear that wait a minute you can wear out a barrel I figured a barrel would last forever not the case at all as you get more into the sport you're going to learn that the barrel is a consumable it's no different than powder bullets anything else it wears out and has to be replaced and depending on what cartridge you choose it's going to wear out faster and need to be replaced sooner than others with that in mind the 308 once again you can get roughly about 5,000 rounds sometimes even more have a 308 barrel before you start seeing a dip in accuracy now these numbers are a little bit arbitrary because one person's dip in accuracy accuracy is not another person's so it really depends also depends on how hot you're pushing your load basically what's causing these changes in barrel life is the amount of pressure and temperature at the throat right where the bullet comes out of the case into the rifling right there is where it's going to slowly deteriorate and break down and eventually erode enough that you're going to start to lose accuracy so depending on how hot you're shooting those rounds and what you consider to be a acceptable amount of accuracy it's going to make these numbers change but for our sake here 5,000 drops of the 308 roughly the six fives no matter which one it is are typically going to get around 2500 rounds I've heard of guys getting as much as thirty five hundred rounds like I said it just totally depends on those factors we just discussed for the six millimeter it's the clear loser in this category with about 1,500 rounds down the tube so if you're going to shoot the six millimeter like a lot of the guys do in the precision rifle series and tactical matches they're typically looking and replacing barrels pretty often in fact they'll usually buy several of them have them all chambered and just have them ready where they can install them and off they go so something to keep in mind there for newer shooters that would be a good reason why I would tend to suggest somebody go with a six five versus the six millimeter for their first rifle or even the 308 moving on to cost what we just discussed falls right in line with that if you're a new shooter maybe you're in college maybe you got a young family don't have a lot of extra funds on hand then getting a 308 may not be a bad choice you know you're not going to have as flattish shooting this rifle you're maybe not gonna be able to reach out to as great of a distance accurately but you're going to be able to get a lot of rounds down that barrel before you've got to spend you know three hundred and fifty dollars for a new barrel and another couple hundred to have it installed as far as ammo goes I didn't go through and break down you know how much it costs generally the the six millimeter bullets are going to be a little cheaper they're obviously a lot smaller and then the six five and the 30 Cal they're going to be all pretty close so that's not a huge factor to consider there most of these are going to use right around 40 something grains of powder so that's not a big significant reason there one thing to consider with cost to kind of get a little off topic is if you are shooting a heavy Magnum like a 7mm ram mag or a 300 Win Mag you're potentially going to be using sixty five to seventy eight grains of outer where a six five by forty seven you're going to be using maybe forty grains of powder so your your about 40% of the powder less that you're being used in the six five bar forty seven and that's going to easily get you out to a mile accurately now beyond the mile that's where it's going to start to struggle and where those big magnums are going to take over but once again with those magnums you're dealing with more recoil more cost other detrimental things so getting back to our diagram here application obviously the military chose the 308 over the other rounds out there for many reasons part of that would be you know having a consistent cartridge across all the NATO countries having an already on hand already having thirty millimeter or 30 caliber barrels there could be a lot of things that factor into why they chose that round part of it could be this 5000 round barrel life they can get a lot more life out of those barrels if they were running six millimeters they'd be changing barrels all the time and certainly not something they want to do also the 30 millimeter if you're going to go out and try to shoot an elk or a deer or something else hitting them with a big hundred and sixty-eight grain or 175 grand bullet is going to have a little more punch and maybe make you a little more comfortable at those distances taking a larger game animal then say the six millimeter now that's not to say that the six millimeter won't get the job done but it's going to be maybe a little bit more risky the six five is going to be a great happy medium I'm not going to suggest what you should use for what animal everybody has throw an opinion on that but there are a lot of guys that are using the six five for big game even as large as elk with success I would personally tend to like to shoot an elk if I'm going to do it especially at a greater distance with something like a 7mm but a deer an antelope no problem going with a 65 or even the six millimeter especially for antelope so another thought to come that comes into play when you're talking about application once again part of that application question is most the guys in our group we're going to be shooting tactical matches where the distances aren't going to be beyond thirteen or fourteen hundred yards so they don't need a big Magnum they also want to be able to have a quick follow-up shot you're normally going to shoot two rounds at each target or three rounds each target so having something that's going to have a lot less recoil where you can see those shots is important also because you do not have a spotter your range officers are not allowed in most competitions to tell you where you missed or where you impacted they're just going to tell you whether you hit or whether you missed so being able to spot your own shots is incredibly important and therefore the six millimeter is going to be the champion of that because of the reduced or the less recoil that you're going to have another thing to consider here all of these rifles are short actions which is going to be a little more conducive to a tactical style match where the speed of running the bolt is important so that's something to consider all these do have that so that would just be an advantage between these rounds versus something like a 7mm mag or a 300 Win Mag well I hope we've covered most of the things are important in a video here a couple of resources that you can go to to learn more accurate shooter comm is an excellent resource if you look along the left-hand side of their page it's got a lot of these cartridges listed and it'll go into great detail as far as you know where to get brass what great loads are ballistically you know you know how these different cartridges perform who uses them what are good applications for them they go into a great amount of detail and you can trust the bad information is is very very good very accurate so that's one great website I'd invite you to visit there's information as well on the 308 on there the other one would be the precision rifle blog the neat thing about this is the precision rifle blog will go in and basically do surveys of the top shooters or all the shooters in the precision rifle series and tell you what they're using so how many are using a six millimeter versus a six five versus you know something else what scopes that are optics they use what barrels they you Jews and so forth so it's kind of a neat way to figure out what people like and what they don't and what the trends are sometimes those are just referenced but most of the time it's based off of you know what's what they're seeing is working the best one trend you will see that kind of goes along with our topic is a lot of guys are going with a overboard Magnum in a 65 so they'll do a six five short action ultra mag also called a six five Psalm and that's basically going to take and give you six millimeter speeds but out of a six five bullet which has a higher ballistic coefficient so you're going to get an even you know better trajectory here with that but like we talked about in the beginning there's no clear advantage to any one particular round they're all going to have their pros and their cons the con of the six five ultra magnus romantic would be barrel life you're going to have even a significantly lower number of rounds down the tube before you have to replace that barrel that's not typically a problem for the guys shooting them because they're sponsored or they're doing enough shooting they don't care about if they have to buy a barrel you know every few months or every six months every year so something also to consider that also applies to the 65 to 84 which is a 284 neck down to a 65 you've got amazing speeds out of that but your barrel life is going to be down in the triple digits so 700 rounds 800 rounds and you'll be replacing the barrel you're probably going to spend at least a hundred 150 rounds just getting your load developed for the gun and you've already gone through 20% of your barrel I hope you enjoyed the video we certainly appreciate you watching if there's other topics that you'd like us to address feel free to leave comments and send us messages you can also email us at bryce it's BR yce and long-range shooters of utah calm and we'll be happy to address those questions as time allows a couple of things I wanted to address one of those being the major problem we have within our sport of trigger trash not so much folks within our group but just the shooting community in general when you go out to public land to go shoot inevitably you're going to see trash everywhere whether it be spent shell casings like shotgun holes for instance but more than that the toilets and the TVs and the VCRs and the couches and things that people take out to the boonies and dump and then shoot up and burn and literally just make a huge huge mess our sport is already under enough attack as it is out there with the media these days doing things like that is just going to furthermore pitch you eight the problem we need to beyond our absolute best behavior our mission statement along issues you ties to be ambassadors for shooting sports at all times I would encourage all of you to do the same if you do find trigger trash out and about when you're out shooting or enjoying the outdoors please take pictures of it go ahead and clean it up take pictures of the cleanup that you did kind of a before and after if you email those over to us once again in my email Bryce at long hua Utah comm will send you out a free sticker this is a way to help promote taking care of our public lands if you can get together with your local Forest Service your BLM DNR and talk with them about organizing cleanups we'd love to send you out some free gear and support in any way we can to make sure we keep our public lands clean remember we would never think of throwing out one of our cherished American flags on the ground walking on it trashing it treating it like garbage shooting it up but yet we're out there doing the exact same thing with the very land the very soil that that flag represents and the very land and soil that people have died for to protect and to sustain so if you think about it that way it's a very sacred ground please don't trash it clean up after yourselves and join us in being ambassadors for shooting sports appreciate you watching hit that subscribe button and we'll see you next time come down how many is one three you

Channel: Long Range Shooters of Utah

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Keywords: long, range, shooters, shooting, precision, best, most, accurate, accuracy, sniper, guns, LRSU, Long Range Shooters of Utah, .308, .308 Winchester, 6.5, 6.5 x 47, 6.5 x 47 lapua, 6.5 Creedmoor, better, best caliber for long range, caliber, .243, 6 creedmoor, 6 x 47, .243 Win, best calibers for long range, Lapua, Creedmoor, .308 vs, Top sniper rifle, 260 remington, sniper 101, how to shoot long range, Learn to shoot long range, Stop shooting 308, best long range rifle, Why you should stop

Id: ZQ3OosLWCDU

Length: 33min 0sec (1980 seconds)

Published: Mon Jan 11 2016