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a major ruling yesterday from the Supreme Court which made it more difficult for the big lie to repeat itself in 2024 the case Moore versus Harper based out of North Carolina centered on a radical Theory known as the independent state legislature Theory it would have given State legislatures virtually unchecked power over Federal elections based on an extreme interpretation of the Constitution's elections clause in a six to three ruling the Supreme Court rejected that anti-democratic theory with Chief Justice John Roberts and justices Brett Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett siding with the Liberals in his opinion the Chief Justice writes the elections Clause does not insulate state legislatures from the ordinary exercise of state judicial review adding that the legislatures the framers recognized are the mere creatures of the state constitutions and cannot be greater than their creators John Eastman a legal advisor to Donald Trump embraced this Fringe Theory as a way to overturn the 2020 election arguing that then vice president Mike Pence had the power to refuse to certify the results in an email exchange with NBC News Eastman claimed the ruling would prevent legislatures from addressing illegality and fraud in a timely manner when asked if the ruling invalidates the arguments he made in 2020 Eastman wrote no but it will be murkier than it was previously joining us now to delve deeper into this ruling senior legal Affairs reporter at Politico Josh gerstein Josh talk about if you could what was at stake well this is pretty significant uh Mika on two different fronts uh one the one you just mentioned involving the 2024 presidential race and the possibility that you could have seen uh Republicans specifically uh former president Trump put forward this kind of effort to uh put State legislatures on steroids you might say to say that they could be the ultimate Arbiter of who won an election in their State uh and that obviously could have led to post-election chaos uh that that is the plan that the Trump team tried to start to run in 2020 but basically got cut off at the pass and the Supreme Court through the reasoning of its ruling makes it seem like that's a lot less likely here the second front of course is the issue of uh control of the U.S House of Representatives and and this decision seemed to shift the ground in favor of Democrats in the overall way in which the redistricting is held to set up the districts so uh to put it a different way Josh can you explain what what could have been if this went if the outcome was different well if that if the outcome was different uh you could have seen a situation where state legislatures were emboldened where some of these legal theories uh that you were discussing before coming from uh John Eastman who's now facing a disbarment proceeding could have seen much more potentially credible in 2024 if we had a nail biter type presidential election there the notion that each state should be in a position through its legislature to decide where its electors were going to go rather than some kind of recognition of the will of the voters uh you know is the kind of thing that could potentially throw the whole election uh into chaos and and I think the Supreme Court stepped away from that possibility with this 6-3 ruling Josh as you know a lot of people are holding their breaths waiting for this announcement because of the implications you just laid out for democracy and what might have been different at 20 in 2020 what could have been different in 2024. any surprises as you talk to people in terms of the six to three vote perhaps that it was cab and Amy Coney Barrett the two justices appointed two of the three appointed by Donald Trump that tipped the balance a bit here yeah it was definitely surprising to see Baron and Kavanaugh come across with Roberts Kavanaugh took a somewhat more nuanced and slightly different position than Roberts but still that's still a 6-3 super majority and it suggests there aren't that many votes in play for this theory that kind of puts State legislatures at the Apex of deciding how a presidential election comes out that wasn't the core issue in the case it was more around the issue of redistricting and the power of State legislatures in in other Federal elections but it definitely undercuts this case that some conservative legal activists were trying to make to to sort of go back to a more old-fashioned approach where maybe there didn't even need to be elections and the electors in each state could just be picked by the political leaders there so as we heard one of those Fringe conservative thinkers John Eastman uh an interview with NBC yesterday email interview sort of he acknowledged that this ruling would make what he tried to do in 2020 Mercury that was his word Easton of course was one of those who tried to push the effort for vice president Pence to overturn the the election results and therefore keep Donald Trump in office so Josh let's put it simply do we think that as the next elections on the horizon did things to get a little safer a little fairer should Americans feel a little more confident that their vote will be heard this time around yeah I think that's right Jonathan I think this does it seems to put the nail in the coffin I would say it's it's not quite as murky as Mr Eastman uh was suggesting uh although it is actually a benefit for Eastman as I said in this uh disbarment legal discipline proceedings that he's facing because remember uh they got three Supreme Court Justices to say that at least this was a credible uh Theory uh three people who dissented there from the Roberts decision and so it doesn't quite seem all that Fringe if you had three Supreme Court Justices uh that sort of landed in that particular camp yeah although there's all the particularly conservative members of this Supreme Court can I just look at the states where there is Republican controller which is Republican legislatures which are swing States so Arizona Georgia North Carolina and Wisconsin and what's specifically kind of in the light of 2020 and what this would mean for those States well catty I mean you remember you had Rudy Giuliani going across the country uh appearing in front of conservative State legislatures GOP controlled State legislatures sort of making the case for election fraud and if this ruling had gone the other way you would have seen those legislatures basically uh become an electoral tribunal of some sort and this decision basically says that the courts are the ones that are going to play that role and not State legislatures and so in that sense if you're looking for the Trump uh operation to sort of rerun that playbook in 2024 it makes this particular uh play not look that enticing or likely to be successful hey Josh I think we've exhausted the questions on the more decision here your brilliant analysis aside can you look at the next couple cases that are to come and also put this in the context of what Roberts is trying to do about what is objectively a free-falling public opinion about the state of the Supreme Court well there's sort of two different schools here Sam about where the Supreme Court is headed this could be uh you know last minute concession in a more right uh liberal or pro-democrat uh Direction before we get the decisions that we're expecting uh on affirmative action for example where the Court's Direction not just for years but for decades has been to pull back from affirmative action so we're thinking that the conservative justices will hold sway there and perhaps uh bring an end to affirmative action certainly in college admissions you've got Biden's uh student debt relief plan that is also uh up there at the Supreme Court and a case on LGBT rights so you could potentially see conservatives around the table but if you take a more sort of strategic Outlook and you think that that's what Roberts uh is pursuing here as we come to the end of this term you really see him as the institutionalist who's trying to get the court out of the political uh Spotlight and return things to uh an era where every decision was not seen as political it's just not clear though whether he has that power in every case you've got a 6-3 republican conservative super majority on that court and as we saw in the Dobbs decision last year uh you know it's quite possible for the court to basically ignore what Roberts is recommending and go in another Direction senior legal Affairs reporter at Politico Josh gerstein thank you so much for your reporting this morning we're learning new previously unreported details about special counsel Jack Smith's investigation into former president Donald Trump's handling of nuclear secrets after leaving the White House New York Times is reporting this morning prosecutors working for Smith have issued at least one subpoena for surveillance footage from Trump's Bedminster golf club now that's where that conversation on tape took place two source is familiar with the matter say that came sometime after the government's request for footage from Mar-A-Lago but it's still not clear what the footage shows or exactly why prosecutors wanted to obtain it the times also reporting prosecutors quote fought a pitched battle with Mr Trump's lawyers late last year over how best to search the New Jersey property specifically investigators discussed executing a search warrant at Bedminster last fall because they were concerned more documents were stashed there that's according to two people briefed on the matter but one of those people told the times the justice department did not have probable cause to obtain a warrant from a judge let's bring in Congressional investigations reporter for the Washington Post Jackie Alameda she's got some new reporting this morning about how Federal prosecutors are perhaps zeroing in now on the former president's New Jersey Golf Club adding details about why the FBI has not searched but Minster so Jackie what more can you tell us about this yeah Willie well we came to found my colleagues Josh Garcia and Spencer Sue and I that this piece of evidence that we now have have all heard this week of trump brandishing documents uh at his Bedminster New Jersey property came did come late in the game it really in recent months ahead of the 49-page indictment that Jack Smith and his team unveiled last month but was a very key and critical piece of evidence that that sort of expedited and spurred the charges against former president Donald Trump as uh former law enforcement officials and current law enforcement officials told us yesterday there's nothing no piece of evidence that's more powerful at the end of the day than someone talking about the potential crime that they committed in their own voice and word and on tape that being said we too like the New York Times reported that ultimately there was not enough evidence or probable cause or in terms of the sort of of public perception of it political cover to execute a search warrant at Bedminster and at that point the Trump lawyers had sort of adjusted their posture and were trying to comply with the Court's order to make sure that they attested in some way that they had fully complied with the May 2022 subpoena asking for Trump to be responsive to a request for returning all classified materials in his possession but you know even before the August raid of Mar-A-Lago the legally executed search warrant had occurred prosecutors already knew that Trump was taking these boxes back and forth there was a lot of evidence that they had already collected about his habits but they had also concluded that the bulk of the materials still were at Mar-A-Lago hey Jackie it's Sam Stein here um I guess the question that hangs over the bed Minister portion of this is what would Jack Smith do with a New Jersey setting right uh there's in judging Cannon down in Florida is overseeing this case we all know she's a hit she's appointed by Trump she's a history of ruling in favor of Trump's legal team the question people have is if he gets an adversarial Hearing in front of Canon could the special counsel go to New Jersey and try to relitigate these cases how would that work functionally do they have the chance to even do that if they have one uh court hearing going on in Palm Beach area yes Sam this is certainly a question that has been in the bloodstream that a lot of trump officials quite frankly have been hypothesizing about and there is certainly the possibility that if things were to go south in Florida that the charges could be brought in in New Jersey under this idea that the venue that a place where the crimes were in part committed was in New Jersey that being said as we've seen all along the special counsel and the the team in its entirety has been extremely strategic there was a lot of decision making and deliberation about where to bring charges to begin with even with the possibility that Eileen Cannon would be overseeing the trial and the calculation that was made was that they would be most successful in Florida bringing these charges there at the end of the day despite it being potentially you know a positive grounds for for Donald Trump but but again this is someone who I don't think would have brought these charges and this idea even of you know Trump coming up with these excuses about that he didn't actually have a classified document you've got to think that that Jack Smith already has potential Witnesses lined up to appear in court to say what exactly that they they saw at this meeting so Jackie one of the focuses of the special counsel in the Mar-A-Lago documents case is not just the fact that they were there at the beach club but there was obstruction when the National Archives and others tried to get them back the New York Times story this morning talking about Bedminster suggests there was some of that at Bedminster as well that they had to be the legal team the Trump legal team had to have its arm Twisted just to go look for documents and then wouldn't sign a document saying yes we checked everywhere got their own people to look didn't look in certain areas at Bedminster does it sound to you like the special counsel Also may be looking at obstruction at Bedminster as well yeah that is something that we do not have the reporting on at the moment and we get a little bit into the back and forth that was occurring between Trump's legal team and prosecutors at that time uh there was one person in particular who was Raising questions and concerns about doing uh hiring an outside team to conduct a search app administer that was Boris Epstein a top advisor in in-house counsel to former president Trump but at the end of the day that search of Bedminster was ultimately conducted by this outside team and no additional classified materials were ultimately found but again there was some hesitation and reticence and conversations that did occur about searching Bedminster and some hesitation but obviously you know prosecutors did not take did not litigate the matter further and and uh ultimately execute a search warrant um but as for those obstruction charges that again is not uh that that is not something that we're seeing bear out just yet at least yeah many legal experts will say this man has been caught in a lie and um as Katie K pointed out his body language really does reflect that he looks exhausted and he's sort of these little lies are coming out here and there a smattering of Lies here a smattering of Lies there he is running for his life they would say running from jail time another excuse for that leaked audio tape that appeared to capture him showing off classified material to people without security clearances a lot of people saw that audio as him admitting to a crime but in an interview with Fox News digital yesterday the former president professed his innocence and accused the media even Fox of conspiring against him here's a portion of that leaked tape from August of 2021 followed by Trump's defense yesterday [Music] yeah I just found isn't that amazing this totally wins my case you know except it is like highly content this is done by the military given to me um I think we can probably see yeah no I can't you know but this is yeah I had a whole desk full of lots of papers and mostly newspaper articles copies of magazines copies of different plans copies of stories having to do with many many subjects and what was said was absolutely fine and very perfectly we did nothing wrong this is a whole hoax we had a lot of papers a lot of paper stacked up in fact you could hear the Russell of the paper and nobody said I did anything wrong other than the fake news which of course is Fox 2. later in the day Trump altered his defense once again in a conversation with reporters from semaphore and ABC News the former president claimed the plans he was referring to on the leaked tape were related to his real estate properties not U.S military plans for a potential attack on Iran he told the journalist quote I would say it was bravado if you want to know the truth it was bravado I was talking and I was just holding up the papers and talking about them but I had no documents I didn't have any documents did I use the word plans what I'm referring to is magazines newspapers plans of buildings I had plans of buildings you know plans I had plans of a golf course I'm sorry it's um Willie I he had me at uh you could hear the Russell of the papers uh of the Iran plans I mean he has such contempt for his voters or maybe just assumes they haven't heard the tape to suggest that what he calls explicitly on that tape from Bedminster two summers ago a defense department document says sometimes you just have to laugh at the absurdity it's plans excuse me for a golf course it's plans for one of the buildings that I've been working on he also had Mika yesterday in one of his interviews a bit of a self-affirmation telling himself that he's a legitimate person let's listen you're not concerned then with your own voice on those on those recordings my voice was fine what did I say wrong of those recordings I didn't even see the recording are there any other recordings that we should be concerned of uh I don't know of any recordings that you should be re uh concerned with because I don't do things wrong I do things right I'm a legitimate person there's a there's an element John of Stuart Smalley there looking in the mirror saying I'm good enough people like me saying I am a legitimate person but I don't do things wrong they do things right I'm a legitimate yeah but it also speaks to the impunity with which he has operated with his supporters especially for the last several years which is I can just say that these were plans for a golf course or for one of my buildings despite what's explicitly on the tape and they'll buy it yeah and that the the quote that Mika read there about the plans the buildings he seemed like it was an evolution as he was talking he was like wait building plans what golf course Ah that's what it was I mean it's nonsensical and you're right it's it shows a lack of of respect for the people who have followed him this far he feels like he can just say anything and they will believe it and polling suggests he's not all together wrong exactly a lot of people do and a lot of Republicans elected officials important figures will follow him too and whether they both actually believe it or not they'll profess that they do in order to not anger him or anger his voters he's lived for the most part a political life of no consequence he can get away with whatever he wants he did lose an election but of course the story there is he actually didn't and that people believe that too and what's so different right now is that he faced legal challenges uh where there are courtrooms where there will be consequences he can't just talk away and Katie K we'll get into the details of this speaker McCarthy's story a little bit later in the show but it's a case in John's point which is he dared step out and kind of in a sideways why perhaps criticize Donald Trump's chances of winning the 2024 election and then had to quickly clean up the mess and scramble and by some reports call Donald Trump to apologize it just speaks to no matter whether he's telling the truth which is a rare occasion or it's pretending that a classified document is Golf Course plans that he's protected by all the people around him yeah macaw is fascinating when he's in this kind of I there is nobody issues I would want to be in less than McCarthy issues at the moment in Washington having to field off kind of you know from all of his members who want to show that they are loyal to Trump to and having to kind of Tamp down all of those revolts in his own party at the moment but I I was struck like John about the it's almost like he's thinking in real time maybe they were building plans no that doesn't quite sound right no okay so let's go with golf plans and there's a question mark after those building plans it's he hasn't really decided he's thinking in real time What's my latest defense going to be but you watch that Fox news interview and we've only got the transcript of the ABC semaphore one but it's pretty low energy I mean to coin a phrase from Mr Trump himself I mean it's there's not he doesn't he's not fighting there he's not got his usual bombastic I'm absolutely right there's a there just seems to me uh if you were to read the body language around that interview that seemed to me is somebody who was aware of the kind of problems they were in it was kind of scrambling around for answers and excuses you obviously met with President XI just under two weeks ago uh had a meeting that you called productive the the handshake moment and everything that came with it a couple of days later President Biden referred to president XI as a dictator do you share that view of President XI is he a dictator you know one of the reasons that I went to China at the president's behest was to make sure that we had clear sustained lines of communication to make sure that we can work through our differences to try to prevent the competition that we're in from varying into conflict uh and also to see if we can find areas where it makes sense for us to cooperate but one of the things that I said to our Chinese counterparts is we are going to say and we're going to do things that you don't like you do and say a lot of things that we don't like and we're going to have to work through that that's what we're doing and so that does that make him a dictator the president speaks for all of us he speaks candidly he speaks clearly catty K has a question for you Mr secretary caddy uh Mr secretary good morning I've just come back from a week in Europe and I was struck by the degree to which uh people were asking me about two things one which is whether Donald Trump would come back again and that raises concerns about the degree to which allies might start hedging in terms of their policies around China even around Ukraine uh wondering where America is going to head in 2024 but also this split between Europe and America which is pretty evident over the question of China and I was wondering you know what you're hearing from European allies and what you're saying to try and bring them on board with China and what you're saying to them about their concerns about Donald Trump coming back again possibly well caddy first great to see you too um and I hate to do this but I've got to differ with you I actually think we have more convergence on the approach to China with Europe as well as with key Partners in Asia than we've seen at any time in recent memory if you look and listen to what senior leaders in Europe say including Ursula of underline uh the head of the European Union commission we could be be exchanging speeches exchanging talking points because we're exactly on the same line both in the challenge that China presents as well as what we're doing about it and across the board we are working very closely together to to deal with that challenge in fact one of the things that's evident to me from my conversations in China is that they're concerned with the fact that we have this Unity of purpose and unity of action with key European allies as well as in Asia I don't see that changing uh look all we can do is to focus on the moment we're in and the responsibilities that we have right now none of us have a crystal ball when it comes to the Future especially when it comes to politics and at the end of the day the more successful we are the more effective we are both in delivering for our own people and demonstrating that our policies work the more likely it is they'll be sustained in the future Mr secretary there is reporting that a big focus of your conversations in Beijing we're on Taiwan with China I'm very concerned about a more aggressive more nationalistic more independence-minded president politician being elected in their coming upcoming elections and you were stating your own neutrality about a foreign election what is your impression about their timeline president G's timeline regarding uh invading trying to take over Taiwan CIA director Burns had said it would be within the next five years he said that a year ago and now president G is got his third term is that more imminent Andrew the main concern that we've had with um beijing's approach to Taiwan is that it seems bent on changing the Status Quo that's prevailed for more than 50 years and has actually been a successful part of the relationship that we've had with China making sure that we could maintain peace and stability across the Taiwan Strait making sure that any differences will resolved peacefully that no one on either side engaged in any unilateral effort to change the status quo and we've had concerns going back to 2016 not just the last months that China was acting more aggressively when it comes to Taiwan so we had a very direct very lengthy conversation about this they have concerns about our policy I clarified to the extent it needed to be clarified that our policy hasn't changed we abide by we stick to the long-standing one China policy and as I said our expectation is that any differences will be resolved peacefully but what um Beijing needs to understand is this is not just a concern for the United States it's a concern for virtually the entire world you've got 50 percent of the commercial container traffic World Trade going through that straight every single day you've got 70 of the semiconductors that the world relies on for our smartphones for our automobiles for our dishwashers made on Taiwan if there were to be a crisis of China's making over Taiwan and you took all of that offline you'd have a global economic crisis and that's why Country after country is making it clear to China that their expectation is the China will manage this responsibly certainly that's what we're working to do it's really important that we have these clear candid direct lengthy exchanges on this so that they know exactly where we're coming from and they can also share what uh what concerns them Following last week's rebellion in Russia the U.S and its allies are working to respond to the largest threat to Vladimir Putin's Reign since he came to power more than two decades ago this as Putin's war against Ukraine rages on with reports of at least nine people killed in a missile strike in the eastern part of the country yesterday at home the White House announced another 500 million dollars in aid for Ukraine China of course is also keeping a close eye on all of this as Beijing steps up its own pressure campaign against Taiwan for more on all of this let's bring in United States Secretary of State Anthony blinken also with us NBC News Chief Foreign Affairs correspondent Andrea Mitchell thank you both for joining us secretary blinken uh given the war in Ukraine how is the United States and NATO allies viewing this Rebellion in in Russia how does it change the dynamic the geopolitical dynamic and also did the U.S know this rebellion was coming first of all Mickey good morning great to be with you uh this is and it remains in many ways an extraordinary moment because I think it's further revealed the failure of Russia's war in Ukraine uh both abroad and also at home uh and we're seeing some cracks emerge uh not just in what it's doing on the ground in Ukraine but uh back toward Moscow if you put this in perspective it's really extraordinary if 16 months ago if we were sitting here Russian forces were on the doorstep with Keith they thought they were going to take the city they thought they were going to erase Ukraine from the map as an independent country now fast forward 16 months and you've got forces heading toward Moscow mercenaries of Putin's own making that he now has to be focused on and worried about and almost in a in a nutshell that epitomizes the failure that he's had in Ukraine it's still very tough and challenging the ukrainians are just starting a counter-offensive to take back more of their territory but across the board this has been a failure for Putin and we're now seeing internal cracks emerge not just the external ones in terms of its prosecution of the war there's no question Mr Secretary of the Vladimir Putin's weakness and that of his military has been exposed over the last year and a half or so but when you use the term cracks internally what does that mean specifically I think some people are skeptical that he would lose his grip on power in a country he has ruled for almost a quarter of a century at this point when you talk about internal cracks what do those look like and how do they potentially knock him out of power look what we don't want to do is speculate about where this may go and this is fundamentally an eternal matter that the Russians and Putin are going to have to reckon with but you had a direct challenge to Putin's Authority from pregosian uh you see dissension in the ranks and it's not as if you need a satellite to figure that out if you've got a social media account you could see this debate this argument going on inside of Russia for months about the prosecution of the war pogosian himself questioned the very premises of the war whether NATO or Ukraine presented a threat to Russia which neither does so that's what I'm talking about where that goes uh when and how it gets there that's a matter of speculation we're relentlessly focused on Ukraine itself making sure that it has what it needs to defend itself what it needs to take back the territory that Russia seized from it Putin has effectively squashed any opposition to him over the years do you believe there are now forces inside of Russia willing but also able to push him aside and to have a regime change inside the country look these are decisions these are choices for Russians to make not for us to make uh as I said what we're focused on is Ukraine itself but there's no doubt that what we're what we've seen just in the last 48 hours are profound questions that Putin is going to have to answer both questions internally we've had a lot of questions he has to answer for externally look at where Russia is now as a result of this aggression uh weaker militarily weaker economically it's standing in the world has plummeted it's managed to get Europe off of Russian energy it's managed to strengthen NATO and we even have a new member and another new member on its way uh it's managed to alienate virtually all of Ukraine and unite the country at the same time so across the board this has been a strategic failure for Putin and to the extent that there are now cracks emerging internally that only magnifies the problem he's facing Mr secretary good morning Andrew good Ukraine's counter-offensive has been a tough slog president zielinski has acknowledged that does a weakened Vladimir Putin and a divided Russian military helped Ukraine or does it weaken Vladimir Putin uh perhaps encourage him to be more aggressive and increase the assaults he has superiority in the air and there's a lot of damage he can do including of course the zaparation nuclear plant well first the counter offensive is in his early days and you heard the Ukrainian Secretary of Defense say just I think yesterday that they have yet to commit uh the the bulk of their forces to this effort and there's no doubt that it's tough going because the Russians have had months and months and months to put in place defenses but we just announced additional assistance to Ukraine yesterday they have what they need to be successful to the extent that Moscow was distracted by its own internal divisions that may help to the extent that the Wagner forces themselves um are no longer on the front lines that could help because they have been effective if they just literally throw people into a meat grinder of Putin's own making but that's had some effect so I think there's some opportunity here for Ukraine but it is early days and uh I think this will play out not over the next days but over the next weeks and months so Mr secretary we all watched what happened in Moscow over the weekend so did Beijing what's your early assessment as to how China views what has happened there this Rebellion because of their Alliance their tactic support for Russia at this point Beijing has to walk a very uh challenging line on this from day one on the one hand finding ways to support Russia including diplomatically advancing its arguments it's false arguments around the world and at the same time trying to seem neutral and and trying to present itself somehow as a peacemaker I think that's getting more and more challenging having said that when I was in China we had conversations about the uh the Russian aggression against Ukraine we agreed that it was something that we needed to keep talking about there may come a point if there is an opening for genuine diplomacy and negotiation where China could play a positive uh and productive role that's still uh alas I think far in the future but I think the the some of the the tensions between the Dual roles that China is trying to play are more and more apparent none of this has done much to erode the support at least among most Republicans for Donald Trump one of his most loyal supporters house Speaker Kevin McCarthy says he doesn't know if the former president is the Republican party's strongest candidate for 2024 said that then walked it back here's first what he said on CNBC yesterday it makes it complicated if he's got all these trials and and all this stuff overhanging it makes it complicated also helps them when but do you think he could win an election could he win an election and win that election yeah he can you think he can the question is is he the strongest to win the election I don't know that answer questioning if Donald Trump is the strongest well shortly after that interview Rolling Stone says it began receiving unsolicited messages from Donald Trump's Associates accusing McCarthy of being ungrateful to the former presidents I think we hear a lot from Donald Trump when people are not grateful to him then in an attempt seemingly to do some damage control McCarthy gave another interview with Breitbart News where he claimed quote Trump is stronger today than he was in 2016 some reporting as well Lonnie that he called Donald Trump to apologize which this entire episode yesterday that happened pretty quickly illustrates just where the party is maybe they quietly believe and sometimes it leaks out into CNBC that Donald Trump is not the best opponent to run against Joe Biden but they can't say that out loud for fear of getting in trouble with the boss well listen as a republican I'll tell you Donald Trump is not the strongest candidate to go up against Joe Biden I I will say this I think there's two separate conversations going on Willie there's a legal conversation and quite clearly the president former president is in significant trouble in that regard then there's a political conversation and I think that the former president has made an assessment that he is going to continue doing what he did throughout the entire term of his presidency what he did when he ran for president the first time which is essentially to bolster his standing with the Republican base and and that seems to be working in that I don't think his numbers have eroded very much now we'll see uh in the coming weeks and months whether that holds but I think that the danger for Republicans here is that you have someone who could become the nominee who will be unelectable with Independence and moderates who you need to win the presidency and and so there's a little bit of a of a challenge in that I think while he is continued to be the front runner in the Republican primary field and I don't believe that has changed or will change I do think it compromises the party's ability to do two things one is to win the presidency in 2024. the second is to capture majorities in the house and the Senate which I think other people in Washington around the country have some concern about Salon Amy stay with you uh Donald Trump right now we just saw what happened when Kevin McCarthy dared criticized him for a second he had to come crawling back and apologize uh within hours some of the Republican candidates on the trail who were also vying for the nomination have started to go after him Christy Chris Christie has a lot but other than him it's it's pretty rare we heard from Nikki Haley yesterday a little bit just very specifically on China you know DeSantis has done it once in a while is there is this a moment where we do see anything are you as you talk to people in the party do you see any sort of sea change there where more of them might need to take him on knowing that they have to beat him you know politics is a pure marketplace right people are going to react to uh whatever will will sell well I guess and so the challenge is that for many of these candidates they see the same numbers that all the rest of us see and the numbers they see tell them that support for the former president is still a significant factor in determining whether a Republican primary voter will support a particular candidate and so the challenge is the tightrope you have to walk between appearing as though you still are in in theory supportive of trump while at the same time trying to distinguish your own lane it is a very difficult Balancing Act it is very hard on the one hand to run against someone and then on the other hand to say well but I kind of like them and I still support them when the fundamental challenges you've got someone who probably violated several federal laws so I I just don't think that this particular balance is going to shift until the Republican primary electorate demonstrates that it's interested in moving on from Trump [Music] foreign [Music]

Channel: MSNBC

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Id: dhQ0AV3wPDQ

Length: 39min 31sec (2371 seconds)

Published: Wed Jun 28 2023