META-JOINS US, PUBLISHER OF FAST COMPANY AND INK MAGAZINE. AHMED BABA, COLUMNIST FOR THE INDEPENDENT AND AUTHOR OF THE AHMED BABA.COM NEWS AND SANDY'S AGE, SHE FOUNDER AND TRADE OF OFFICER OF BOETSCH'S MEDIA. THIS IS ANOTHER CRAZY BUSY WEEK IN THIS TERMINAL CASE AGAINST DONALD TRUMP. DONALD TRUMP GOT FINED FOR VIOLATING THE GAG ORDER. ANOTHER GAG ORDER HEARING. A LOT HAPPENED. TOM, THIS MORNING THE JUDGE KIND OF DIDN'T STICK IT TO DONALD TRUMP BUT HE MADE IT CLEAR AS DONALD TRUMP HAS BEEN OUT THERE THIS WEEK SAYING I'M NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO TESTIFY BECAUSE OF THIS GAG ORDER AND THE JUDGE LOOKED HIM SQUARE IN THE EYE AND SAID YOU ABSOLUTELY CAN, ENOUGH OF THIS NONSENSE. ONE OF THE ISSUES, THOUGH, IS THERE ARE NO CAMERAS IN THE COURTROOM. TRUMP IS GOING TO GO RIGHT BACK OUT ON THE TREY LANCE SAY IT'S THE JUDGE APPS FALSE. HOW DO YOU THINK THIS WHOLE THING HAS GONE? >> WELL I AM STILL VERY WORRIED THAT WE HAVE A PROSPECT FOR A HUNG JURY HERE. I AM JUST VERY SUSPICIOUS. VERY SUSPICIOUS OF JURORS GETTING ON THERE, SAYING THEY DON'T HAVE AN OPINION OF DONALD TRUMP. I HAVE NEVER MET A NEW YORKER WHO DOES NOT HAVE AN OPINION OF DONALD TRUMP. THERE ARE TWO LAWYERS THERE AND IF EITHER OF THEM ARE OF A CAMP THAT FAVORS DONALD TRUMP'S FUTURE, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT IS GOING TO UPSET THE NORMAL DYNAMIC OF A JURY ROOM, HAVING TWO LAWYERS ON THE JURY. SO I THINK THE DOWNSIDE HERE IS WORSE THAN THE UPSIDE POTENTIAL BECAUSE THE CONVICTION HERE IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, I DON'T THINK IS REALLY GOING TO MATTER THAT MUCH. WHEN YOU LOOK BACK AT THE HOLLYWOOD ACCESS TAPE, WHICH HAPPENED AT A MUCH MORE IMPORTANT TIME IN THE POLITICAL CAREER OF DONALD TRUMP AND WAS AN ISSUE TODAY IN THE TRIAL, THAT DIDN'T DO IT. I DON'T THINK TALKING ABOUT ISSUES LIKE THIS NOW ARE REALLY GOING TO UPSET DONALD TRUMP'S ELECTION. >> BUT IF YOU'RE ALVIN BRAGG, ALVIN BRAGG WOULD SAY I'M NOT DOING THIS FOR ANYONE TO WIN OR LOSE AN ELECTION. I'M DOING THIS BECAUSE DONALD TRUMP WROTE THE LAW. >> WELL THAT'S FINE BUT WHAT WE HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT IS DONALD TRUMP COMING BACK AS PRESIDENT AND ANYTHING THAT WOULD HELP HIS CASE, AND A HUNG JURY HERE, I THINK HE WOULD SCREAM FOR THE REST OF THE CAMPAIGN -- >> I'VE BEEN EXONERATED. >> HE WAS EXONERATED, THERE WAS NOTHING HERE, IT WAS A RIDICULOUS CASE AND NEW YORK PERSECUTORS THAT COULDN'T FIND ANYTHING BETTER TO DO WITH THEIR TIME. THIS IS REALLY AN ISSUE THAT I WORRY WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO CONFRONT, AND IT'S MUCH MORE OF A DOWNSIDE THAN ANY UPSIDE I SEE HERE. >> HOW DO YOU THINK THE PROSECUTION IS DOING? >> I TEND TO AGREE WITH TOM. I THINK THERE WERE A LOT OF PEOPLE. WE ARE GOING TO TALK ABOUT THE HOPE HICKS TESTIMONY IN A LITTLE BIT. A LOT OF PEOPLE SAYING THIS WAS A SLAM DUNK FOR THE PROSECUTION. I THINK HOPE HICKS NEED A COMPELLING CASE FOR THE FACT THAT DONALD TRUMP ALSO WAS CONCERNED ABOUT MELANIA'S FEELINGS. NOW WHETHER WE BELIEVE THAT THE- >> SISTER PLEASE! >> BUT SHE PUT IT OUT THERE AND IF YOU HAVE THAT JUROR WHO SAYS, YOU KNOW, THIS CALLS INTO QUESTION THIS ARGUMENT THAT THE HUSH MONEY PAYMENT WAS STRICTLY A BUSINESS ENGAGEMENT AND AN ARRANGEMENT DESIGNED TO HELP WIN THE ELECTION. SHE PROVIDED THE COUNTERARGUMENT. >> WHAT DID YOU THINK ABOUT HOPE HICKS TESTIMONY? THIS IS A WOMAN WHO WAS GLUED TO DONALD TRUMP'S SIDE HIS ENTIRE ADMINISTRATION. PEOPLE VERY RARELY HEARD HER SPEAK. THERE SHE WAS, DIDN'T EVEN MAKE EYE CONTACT WITH HIM. SUPPOSEDLY HASN'T SPOKEN TO HIM FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT IT? >> I THINK IT MUST'VE BEEN VERY, VERY FRIGHTENING FOR HER. THERE ARE MANY ACCOUNTS THAT HE'S AN INTIMIDATING PERSON AND HE'S SITTING AS FAR APART AS WE ARE FROM HER SO I WOULD IMAGINE THAT SHE HAS SOME SORT OF EMOTIONAL ATTACHMENT TO THIS PHASE IN HER LIFE. I IMAGINE THERE WERE SOME THINGS THAT HAPPENED, THAT SHE'S SEEN, THAT HAVE LED HER TO NOT SPEAK WITH HIM ANYMORE. AND I CAN'T IMAGINE THAT IT WAS EASY FOR HER TO BE ABLE TO GIVE LIKE A COMPLETELY HONEST ACCOUNTING OF WHAT HAD HAPPENED WITHOUT FEELING LIKE I NEED TO IMPRESS HIM AND FALLING BACK INTO THAT WAY OF BEING. >> AHMED, WHAT DID YOU THINK? BECAUSE TRUMP HAS BEEN FRUSTRATED WITH HIS LAWYERS. HE WANTS THEM TO GO TOUGHER. HE WANTS THEM TO BE LIKE ROY COHN, WHO WAS DISBARRED AND DISGRACED. >> I THINK ON HOPE HICKS, ON THE EMOTIONAL ASPECT, I THINK THAT BOOSTS HER CREDIBILITY. >> CRYING BOOST HER CREDIBILITY, BEING FRAGILE BOOST HER CREDIBILITY? >> I THINK ARE ESSENTIALLY SHOWING THAT THIS WAS AN EMOTIONAL MOMENT FOR HER TO BE ON THE STAND UNDER OATH IN FRONT OF DONALD TRUMP. LIKE YOU SAID, SHE HAS THIS EMOTIONAL CONNECTION, SHE HAS THIS HISTORY, BUT IT WAS ACTUALLY COMPELLING BECAUSE I THINK SHE DID GIVE EVIDENCE THAT WAS HELPFUL TO THE PROSECUTION BY SAYING THAT I UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES DID MICHAEL COHEN DO THIS UNDER THE GOODNESS OF HIS OWN HEART, OUT OF HIS OWN VOLITION, THAT HE DEFINITELY -- AKIN TO THAT, THIS WAS FOR DONALD. THIS WAS NOT SOMETHING THAT MICHAEL WOULD DO ENABLE THEM ANOINT NATURE AND THEN NOT ONLY THAT, WE HAVE THE DAVID TESTIMONY REALLY TYING THIS TO THE FACT THAT THIS IS AN ELECTION INTERFERENCE CASE, WHICH I THINK MAKES IT MORE COMPELLING, INDICATING THAT THIS WAS AN EFFORT TO KEEP INFORMATION FROM THE VOTING PUBLIC AND I FEEL LIKE THAT THE MENTION OF THIS COULD HOPEFULLY -- I THINK THAT'S WHAT THE PROSECUTION IS TRYING TO DO, SEEK TO PREVENT A HUNG JURY. WHEN YOU HAVE SOME PEOPLE SEE THE SEVERITY OF IT AND SEE THAT THERE WAS ACTUALLY AN INTENT TO -- WHICH HOPE HICKS ALSO SAID, NOTHING GOING ON, BUT SHE ALSO SAID THERE WAS A CRISIS IN THE CAMPAIGN AFTER THE EXCESS HOLLYWOOD TRIAL. SO THAT TELLS ME THAT'S INTENT. YOU HAVE THAT TAPE AND NOW YOU NEED TO CONCEAL THIS INFORMATION AFTERWARDS. >> THE THEATER OF HOW DONALD TRUMP PERFORMS TO ME IS MORE INTERESTING THAN THE EVIDENCE AT TRIAL. >> DO YOU NOT THINK THERE'S ANY THEATER OF HOPE HICKS? SHE WAS CRYING. SHE WAS FRAGILE. SHE WAS A PERSON ONE INCH AWAY FROM HIM ALL FOUR YEARS, DURING CHILD SEPARATION, DURING CHARLOTTESVILLE, AFTER JANUARY 6. I'M NOT SURE I BUY THIS FRAGILE INGINUE UP THERE, LIKE THIS IS SUCH A DIFFICULT MOMENT. I DIDN'T SEE ANY DIFFICULT MOMENTS. SHE STOOD NEXT TO HIM ICE ICE BABY THE WHOLE TIME. >> THAT'S WHY IT WAS A DIFFICULT MOMENT JUST THINK OF WHAT YOU MUST'VE EXPERIENCED. WILLINGLY, YES. >> WILLINGLY! >> THAT DOESN'T MEAN -- A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE TROUBLE -- I DON'T WANT TO CROSS THIS LINE BUT AN ABUSIVE SORT OF DYNAMIC, A REALLY TOUGH DYNAMIC. >> MAYBE SHE WAS ALL IN. >> MAY BE BUT WHY IS SHE ALL IN? I THINK ULTIMATELY -- >> WHY IS COREY LEWANDOWSKI ALL IN? WHAT IS STEPHEN MILLER ALL IN? >> SHE'S TESTIFYING AGAINST TRUMP AND OF ALL PEOPLE TO TESTIFY AGAINST TRUMP, SHE'S A GOOD EXECUTION WITNESS. BUT AS I SAID, AT THE END OF THE DAY, I DON'T THINK THAT'S WHAT REALLY MATTERS HERE. IT'S TRUMP THEATRICS AND I THINK WHAT HE WAS TRYING TO DO EARLY ON WAS PROVOKED THE JUDGE INTO REALLY HITTING HIM WITH A CONTEMPT CHARGE CARD THAT MIGHT INVOLVE GOING TO JAIL. SO FOR SOME HOURS. SO HE COULD REALLY PLAY THE CARD OF I'M BEING GAGGED HERE, I CAN'T SPEAK, CAN YOU BELIEVE THE JUDGE WOULD PUT THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND JAIL FOR SPEAKING HIS MIND? I THINK IN THE LAST COUPLE DAYS HE MAY HAVE BACKED OFF THE THOUGHT THAT THAT'S HELPFUL AND THE REASON FOR THAT I THINK HAS TO DO WITH WHAT WE'LL TALK ABOUT LATER -- ALL THE PROTESTS. THAT CHAOS IN THAT WORLD HURTS BIDEN IN HIS MIND AND HE'S THE GUY WHO SUPPOSEDLY IS GOING TO BE LAW, ORDER, CONTROL. WELL IF YOU'RE OUT OF CONTROL YOURSELF, YOU KNOW THE POINT THAT A JUDGE HAS TWO JAIL YOU BECAUSE YOU CAN'T BEHAVE IN A WAY THAT'S WITHIN THE DECORUM OF THE COURT SYSTEM, THEN WHO ARE YOU TO SAY THAT YOU'RE THE GUY WHO'S GOING TO BRING CONTROL HERE. >> YOU ARE BRINGING SOMETHING DEEP! I'M LIKING WHAT YOU'RE SELLING. >> AWAY FROM THAT PROVOCATION BECAUSE OF THAT. >> THE SORT OF NIHILISTIC VIEW OF THIS IS DOES ANY OF IT EVEN MATTER? WHETHER IT'S A HUNG JURY, WHETHER HE GETS CONVICTED, EVERYONE'S JUST GOING TO DOUBLE DOWN AS THEY ALWAYS DO. YOU HAVE REPUBLICANS WHO ARE GOING TO BE OH, THIS IS SUCH A PROBLEM, I'M CONCERNED, AND THEN 10 MINUTES LATER THEY ARE BACK DOWN TO MAR-A-LAGO PAYING FOR HIS MEAL. IT'S REALLY JUST -- MY FEAR IS THAT NONE OF IT GETS TO ANYBODY AND PEOPLE DON'T HAVE CLEAR INFORMATION ACCESS, AND IT'S JUST VERY, VERY HARD FOR THEM TO GET OUT OF THEIR SILO. >> THEN I WANT TO GO TO MY FEAR AND STUFF, I WANT YOU TO COME IN. ON WEDNESDAY TRUMP HAD THE DAY OFF FROM COURT. HE WAS ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL AND WHAT DID HE DO? HE TOLD REPORTERS HE WILL NOT NECESSARILY ACCEPT THE ELECTION RESULTS IF HE DOESN'T LIKE THEM, I.E. IF HE DOESN'T WIN. I GET THAT MAYBE SOMEWHERE IN THE BACK OF OUR MIND, WE ASSUME HE DO THAT. THAT'S A HUGE PROBLEM. >> TRUMP ALWAYS TELLS YOU WHAT HE'S GOING TO DO. YOU KNOW THE TIME MAGAZINE ARTICLE POINTED OUT EVERYTHING HE SAID HE WAS GOING TO DO. PEOPLE HAVE BEEN -- THE 2025 PROJECT VERY CLEARLY SPELLS OUT EXACTLY WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN IF THERE IS A TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, AND SIMILARLY, WHEN TRUMP SAYS THAT HE WILL NOT ACCEPT THE RESULTS OF THE ELECTION, WE SHOULD BE PREPARED FOR THE FACT THAT HE IS NOT GOING TO ACCEPT THE RESULTS OF THE ELECTION. IT'S PLAIN AS DAY HE IS GOING TO DO EXACTLY WHAT HE SAYS. >> IT WILL BE A VERY DIFFERENT APPROACH TO ELECTION DENIAL THAN IT WAS LAST TIME. THEY LEARNED A LOT AND WHAT THEY LEARNED IS YOU GOT TO STAY AWAY FROM THE COURTS. CAN YOU DENY ELECTIONS AND NOT HAVE IT SUBJECT TO COURT REVIEW? THE BIG DIFFERENCE THIS TIME THAT EVERYBODY'S GOT TO PAY ATTENTION TO -- >> YOU'RE KILLING ME. >> YOU HAVE MIKE JOHNSON AS SPEAKER, NOT NANCY PELOSI, AND THE FACT THAT THE REPUBLICANS CONTROL THE HOUSE IS SIGNIFICANT IN THIS RESPECT. THERE IS A VIEW THAT THE HOUSE SELECTION IN TERMS OF WHO TAKES CONTROL IS GOING TO BE CLOSE BUT THE DEMOCRATS HAVE A REALLY GOOD SHOT. BUT IT IS THE PREVIOUS CONGRESS OR CURRENT CONGRESS THAT CERTIFIES HOUSE RACES AND IT COULD BE SOMETHING -- AND I'M SURE THEY THOUGHT OF THIS -- IF THERE'S SOME CLOSE RACES THAT THE DEMOCRATS LOOK LIKE THEY'VE WON THAT IT WILL TURN CONTROL OF THE HOUSE TO THE DEMOCRATS, THEY DON'T CERTIFY AND THEN YOU END UP ON JANUARY 3 WITH THE REPUBLICANS IN CONTROL, COME JANUARY 6 YOU HAVE THE REPUBLICANS, AND THIS IS A HUGE ISSUE, A PARLIAMENTARY TACTIC, WHICH WOULD MEAN THAT THE ELECTORAL COUNT FORMAT, WHICH WAS SUPPOSED TO SOLVE ALL THIS, TO MAKE SURE THAT AN ELECTION COULDN'T BE STOLEN BY CONGRESS -- ONE PROBLEM. THOSE RULES HAVE TO BE ADOPTED BY THE HOUSE, MEANING THE SENATE IS A CONTINUOUS BODY. IT HAS -- TWO THIRDS OF THE BODY CONTINUES EVERY ELECTION CYCLE. THE HOUSE, IT'S A NEW HOUSE EVERY TIME. IF THEY DON'T PUT THE IMPLEMENTING RULES BEFORE THE HOUSE FOR ADOPTION, YOU HAVE A SITUATION WHERE THEY COULD REJECT THE VOTE IN CLOSE STATES BECAUSE THEY'VE NOW STOLEN THE HOUSE THROUGH ELECTION DENIAL. >> IF WE DO NOT STOP SERVING VODKA WHEN TOM ROGERS IS HERE, FOR A NIGHTCAP, WE ARE ALL GOING DOWN. >> THIS IS REALLY SERIOUS AND HAS TO BE PAID ATTENTION BECAUSE THEY LEARNED A LOT FROM LAST TIME. >> ARE DEMOCRATS, JUST A FEW MO FROM NOW, OWING TO SEVERELY REGRET IT IF THEY END UP SAVING MIKE JOHNSON? MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE IS TRYING TO OUST MIKE JOHNSON AND IT'S DEMOCRATS WHO COULD BE THE ONES WHO KEEP HIM IN THAT POSITION. IF EVERYTHING PLAYS OUT IN THIS DEEPLY DRACONIAN WAY, THE WAY TOM IS PREDICTING, ARE DEMOCRATS GOING TO RUE THE DAY THAT THEY HELPED THIS GUY? >> THERE'S ALWAYS THE RISK OF SOMEONE WORSE THAN MIKE JOHNSON, IF THAT'S EVEN IMAGINABLE, BUT THAT'S THE RISK AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT THEY MIGHT BUFFER IT FOR, AND THAT'S WHAT THEY COULD DO. BUT REALLY WHAT IT COMES DOWN TO IS I LIKE THE POINT YOU MAKE ABOUT HOW THEY'VE LEARNED FROM LAST TIME AND THAT'S A GREAT POINT. >> HIS CAMPAIGN IS SO MUCH SMARTER AND MORE DISCIPLINED. EVEN IF TRUMP DOESN'T SEEM TO BE, HIS OPERATION IS. >> EXECUTIVE, AND CONGRESS TAKES OFFICE BEFORE J6 SO WHATEVER CHANGES HAPPEN THERE, THAT'S GOING TO ESSENTIALLY IMPACT WHAT HAPPENS NEXT. MEANWHILE THAT TRANSITION TEAM IN WAITING, TALKING ABOUT PROJECT 2025, THEY HAVE ESSENTIALLY CREATED -- I KNOW YOU HAD SAMUEL JACOBS ON A COUPLE MONTHS AGO. HE MENTIONED THIS IDEOLOGICAL/INTELLECTUAL/LEGAL FRAMEWORK THAT PROJECT 2025 IS DOING. YOU KNOW THAT KEY AND PEELED SKIT WHERE OBAMA HAD A TRANSLATOR? TRUMP HAS THE REVERSE OF THAT. THEY ARE TAKING HIS RAVINGS AND CODIFYING IT INTO CALM, DELIBERATE POLICY THAT CAN ACTUALLY ACHIEVED. THEY'RE FINDING LEGAL AVENUES TO GET THIS STUFF DONE AND I KNOW OUR LAST SEGMENT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THIS DISMANTLING OF AGENCIES AND THE PURGING OF CIVIL SERVANTS. THEY HAVE THE PLANS TO DO SO AND THAT'S THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS. IF THEY GO THIS ROUTE POTENTIALLY TO TRY TO STEAL THE ELECTION, NOW RIGHT AFTER YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT TAKING OFFICE AND THEN PURGING CIVIL SERVICE, RE-IMPLEMENTING SCHEDULE F AND THEN PURSUING THIS INSANE AGENDA THAT WAS
