Was Blair to Blame for Brexit? | Alastair Campbell meets Beth Rigby (Part 1)

[Music] thank you so why has politics gone so wrong and what can we do about it let's find out please welcome to the stage Aleister Campbell and Beth Rigby here you go hello everyone hello everyone it's lovely to be here um the last time I was here was my friend Sophie's wedding and she's somewhere here where are you yes there she is and we had a big party in this Hall so this has got fun memories for me um thank you so much for being here tonight I have the pleasure of interview and Alistair Campbell I hope he doesn't rough me up come on depends about this book um and I'm sure that he would definitely like to offer you a signed copy uh later on I think someone's already got it yeah yeah good I've read I'm I I'm a girly swap so I've read it I've taken notes I've got paste it so you recommend Post-its in the book I love posters um we're gonna either post this too we're going to spend um we've got 75 minutes we're going to do about a 50 to 55 minute in conversation which I interview Alistair and I think he's then going to try and interview me back which I'm not looking forward to that okay I'm I'm the boss here okay for the interview purposes all right okay and then um and then we're gonna have a q a and you can ask him whatever you like and you can ask me stuff if you like as well um but let's get on to this because I wish I I have read I told you before you came on I've listened to endless podcasts but you were completely in my head all over this weekend as I prepared this interview you've got that income with quite a lot of stories um but we're here to talk about this but what can I do it's a polemic on why politics risk becoming totally broken in this country and then it's a sort of motivational talk once you've taken us to the depths of Despair you kind of whip us up into but don't worry there is stuff you can do and I was when I was reading it it in some ways and I wanted to open this it came across to me a bit almost like a self-help book for you as well and the reason I say that is it's like you turn your acute frustrations about brexit and Boris Johnson and everything that's gone on in in politics really not since 2016 but you know before that you try and turn it into something more constructive is that is that fair is it was it a kind of cathartic experience for you was a self-help book for you to try and write it out your frustrations yeah well you know as you say I'm obsessed with Post-its and I've got all these Post-its in my office all over the wall and two relate to what you've just said one is thinking Inc so I write everything I write all the time and the second is ggob get good out of bad so I think one of the messages of the book is that when things are bad and we know this in our own lives you know when things are bad you can either turn away from it and decide there's nothing I can do about that or you can try and do something and I think I'm saying we can all do stuff but we have to understand how bad things are before we actually then decide the scale of the commitment that we're going to make so yeah I think it probably was a it's also for me I'll say right up front there's a very big cop out in this book as well which I do address because I'm basically saying politics is in a really bad State we've all got a responsibility to do what we can and lots of people see to say to me well you know piss or get off the pot why don't you go back in help labor or be a candidate or whatever and I've given the reasons why I don't want to do that but I think that I am sort of saying in a way I mean it's almost a plea to be Irrelevant in a bizarre sort of way I yeah I think it is you know I think I want to get to a place where a new generation comes on and does everything better than we've done it that's how the book started it started as a letter from one generation to the next it's morphed into something completely different you say you don't want to go back into it and you say you know you don't want to stand for office but is that not part of you when you look at I'm diverging here but when you look at kirstama uh heading potentially for a majority largest minority government and you think about the rule book that you brought in with new labor the way you strategize the objective the tactics and you look at how they're doing it now do you not think actually the expertise I had if I transpose that and if I go in I could get them across the line do you not does that not tempt you well it might do but I think that I just think it's I think it's a generational thing I think it's I want them to do things differently I don't like this fact the fact that you know we me Tony Gordon we're all still so sort of fixed into the center of the body politic and I kind of want it I want them to be different and new and so I look I can help but I don't I'm not sure it would work in the way that you think I think that there's a real danger because I write in the book for example about the whole Cambridge analogica thing you know and brexit I've read books about that stuff I still don't understand it this stuff about artificial intelligence and politics now it's not my kind of brain set so I can do I can definitely do the stuff about strategy I think I can still do that in fact people talk about the Turkish elections you know I work for the prime minister in Albania who's a really good friend of mine I do know well he's just about they've just had local elections and they've just had the best ever local elections he's sailing towards the fourth term now I have helped him strategize around the new labor Playbook as you call it but I think I think laboring pretty good Nick could I help them do better maybe yeah but I do that anyway I do talk to people you know I know you do talk to people all the time he's always there living rent free in my head talking um I'm going to come back to that but otherwise I'm going to do what I always do in interviews and get completely distracted on something else and not follow my flirt yeah so let's stick with my script okay which is let's let's let's because I want to get back to New I want to get back to labor and starma because I'm I'm interested in what you have to say about but let's first go back to this and you talk in the book about the three p's can you explain what they are populism polarization and post truth populism is the it's basically the con by which Trump became president by which Johnson became prime minister but the driver of them is polarization and poetry so populism is not about being popular it's about separating the people the pure people which we all like to think we are from an elite that is trying to damage us and the Johnson Trump characters they're the ones who despite coming from incredibly privileged backgrounds somehow managed to project themselves as the voice of the people against the elites okay polaroid so that's populism and it basically means that you don't really care about policy Solutions there's a chapter also about Sado populism Trump for example he actually made people's life worse in so many ways Putin has made people's lives worse in so many ways but what you do is you create enmities so that you you make people feel that their their life is absolutely s-h-i-t but you point them to the people over there who's worse for the Mexicans the migrants the welfare's grounders the woke people so you're creating enmities rather than policy Solutions with Rwanda and the barges and all this it's not designed to solve the problem it's designed to exploit the problem so that's populism polarization is about trying to drive the arguments to the extremes so that we're all in our tribes and we don't think this is why the podcast that I do with Rory Stewart we try to have this motto disagree agreeably we you know polarization is saying no don't do that if you're wrong about one thing you're probably wrong about everything if you ever voted Joe Biden and I'm a trump character there's nothing good you're ever going to say to me and vice versa so that's polarization and post-truth is you know it's Putin uh it's not a war it's a special Ministry operation it's Johnson there were no parties right it's the same now one may be more serious than the other but they're from the same book and there's I quote this guy Moises Naim in the book he's the guy who invented coined this phrase the 3p autocrats and he said the the most extraordinary thing is that Britain has fallen such victim to this what he calls this Carnival of populism polarization and post region okay just on the populists let's start with populists because the question I have for you in the book is that it it's kind of very focused in recent history in terms of you know you talk about you know the two most obvious populist Trump and Johnson a lot and then of course Liz truss coming in on the coattails um but when you think about Boris Johnson and Donald Trump do you not think it was more a transitory moment in time and the sensibles if you like are back in the room I mean all of these people have been voted out and indeed you know Clinton and I know you did that fascinating podcast with her um to Mark the 25th anniversary of the Good Friday group and I also got a fraction of the time with her that Alistair got of course if I mean you know I mean you personally know you were in the room with them um she said to me Trump can't win in 2024 she said people are more on to him and his behavior than they were before so I'm not arguing I mean I've lived through it myself like I've kind of had a ringside seat at this but why do you think it's not translated transitory generated by individuals rather than something more systemic well it may be transitory it has to be transitory otherwise we're in real trouble but just think about it Putin is still in charge erdogan it looks like he's going to win Modi who's a populist polarizer he is more powerful than he's ever been um Imran Khan and the chaos that he's causing in Pakistan he's a populist and okay he's just spent a few days in jail but he's not off the scene Trump is Def I I don't agree with Hillary I don't know I think that Trump is a is a is a real and present danger um no just think about it when when Nixon was President okay he got brought down by Watergate okay now I I can point to many governments in different parts of the world who I think have done comparatively worse things since then in corruption and lying and all sorts of scandals right and they're gone and now you have a situation where Donald Trump is convicted of a sexual offense a serious sexual offense and the debate goes straight into well will this damage him or not is this actually quite a bonus for him and you even have a Catholic old Italian former cabinet minister in our politics going on our television Jacob Reese morgue and saying actually when he got clear to the most serious right so the rest of it doesn't really matter I mean it's you know that is crazy and so I don't I think we're being very complacent I was on the rest is not the rest is probably also called politics live that's my podcast isn't it yeah sorry I was on apologies live today there was a guy from conservative home who said oh I think he's but but you know saying it's all you're exaggerating what have you and I don't think I am I mean the other I quote lots of other books in this book and one of them Madeleine Albright she wrote an amazing book just before she died called fascism a warning she'd lived through it and you know she fled Fascism and ended up as Secretary of State and she had a kind of amazing perspective on and I really do worry that we're we're we're we're on the edge we're on the edge and you talk in the book about the way in which less of the world is living under Democratic regimes now that it then then it was 20 years ago and you talk about Putin and post-truth I mean presumably part of that process from Nixon onward and you're right that even things a decade ago that I would have said that person is going to have to lose their job now it that there's a sort of tough it out yeah there's a sort of degradation of Standards now how much of that do you think is driven though by social media the rise of disinformation because has it gone hand in hand if you like the technological change there's no doubt that technological change has been a part of it but I think that if you go through I mean I'm sure some of you have seen me during the whole Johnson Premiership I became obsessed with this idea of getting the Nolan principles Into the Heart of the debate the Nolan principles which were brought in by John Major after a series of scandals when he was prime minister honesty openness objectivity selflessness Integrity accountability and Leadership now on all seven of those whatever I thought of Thatcher whatever I thought of major whatever I thought of Cameron whatever thought of Theresa May on on most of those seven most of the time I could say well at least they're trying okay at least they're trying Johnson literally trashed every single one of them every single one of them and because he was this sort of character in my view um he got away with it I do think as well that you know I I do think the the the way I'm as you know I think we've got a very biased media I think we've got a very right-wing media culture and I think that he I think if we'd have had a serious political media in this country Johnson would have never got near Paradigm thing he got away with stuff because he's a journalist because he's connected to journalism and because you know here's the thing when he was a journalist on the times he got sacked for lying he got sat for it when he stood to be prime minister the times back to him for the job I mean what's that about that's a cultural shift it wasn't also because he was popular I mean I know you won't like that as an idea but you know he was the guy that won in London yeah right and you know he had and has a Charisma yeah for sure and and a way of being popular with enough voters that his personal brand can help Drive yeah Landslide so we've got Osborne on the podcast this morning and he made the point he's right that you know Johnson was utterly decisive in brexit decisive there's no doubt about that if Johnson had stayed with Cameron and Osborne and just let Michael Gove on his own gov would have had an influence but it wouldn't have happened right that's why he is that you know that's the one thing that he will be remembered for in in terms of history is brexit no doubt about that so yeah but this this kind of plays to my point he does have a certain Charisma but it's it's a Charisma that is rooted in a show and in character falsehoods if I can put it like that and again you know but it's a as a politician I know you really dislike him but do you not in no decide what he's done so do you not at some level admire him for his ability his political like with your you know your with for his political ability no because the politicians that I admire are the ones who get really difficult stuff done because they believe in it Osborne said as a fact on that podcast with the interviewers you know look Boris didn't believe in brexit I mean they just accept that as a fact so we the rest of us have to live with the consequences of one of the most major decisions this country has ever taken on the basis of the fact that it was a game between these people all from sort of Oxbridge and Eaton and all these places at the top of the story but the fact but then to flip it around if you then say he drove it through that speaks to his Effectiveness as a politician yeah but I think he only was able to do that because he was given these platforms by a media that failed to take seriously the threat that he was posing to basic standards including of Journalism by the way in our public life let's go because you talk a lot about in the polarization section here you it's it's you talk a lot about brexit um I'm not I'm not obsessed you and you talk about the late vote leave position as the underdog they The Establishment that was you know you and the remainers and Osborne Etc uh vote leave for David you were Goliath they labeled any the economic analysis very effectively this project remember we're sick of experts Michael Gove um you talk about they sought to divide create chaos dominate the Airways with insults but do you look back on your time in number 10 with Tony Blair and think we sowed some of the seeds potentially for the discontent that led to this this movement in the country towards brexit I mean the what the thing you can point to specifically is the we had a choice when the Eastern European countries were coming into the European Union we could have limited the immigration we decided not to we did that for all sorts of reasons primarily economic business was saying we need these people to come in we need we've got massive labor issues we've got to resolve them the Germans took a different opinion different View and other countries did as well so I accept that that became a problem in political terms no doubt but it's like on the program with Danny Krueger was on the politics live thing this morning and he was saying oh all these communities that labor left behind we made massive progress in those communities but what happened is that Johnson came along and through brexit promised real change in in these people's lives which now hasn't happened so they're feeling incredibly disappointed I think that where the other area where I think we if I look back I do think that the I honestly don't do the blame the media thing but I do think that the the landscape the political media landscape changed fundamentally and we were always very very keen to make sure that we were driving our own agenda and I think that's the right thing to do if you're a government you get battered left right and Center if you don't but I do think that we that something happened in that debate that led to a kind of a disjunction with the public and so that the public is you know you've got three sides of the triangle you've got politics media in public okay and if any one of those three breaks down it democracy becomes very very fragile and very very and I think that happened and you know I think we must have been in part responsible for that but even even now saying that I can't quite think what would have done differently just going back to the the session of these uh other these Eastern European countries because what happened was the UK was only one of three member states that alongside Sweden Island that opened its labor markets to EU citizens immediately and I was looking into this and I found this research paper and there was a sort of assumption that there would be up to 13 000 people coming in and in the end between four and five it was nearly 130 000 people and so what right at the start between 2004 and five I've got yeah yeah I I found this this was a doc this was a this is from a research student at the University of Sussex um I do remember I think and I wonder that's why because migration was such a massive issue for people wasn't it do you look back on that now and think Blair and I shouldn't not you I mean you you execute what the politicians decide but do you think God we underestimate it's kind of globalization I think you underestimated that that would sow the seeds of discontent over many years admittedly that would blow up in the way that it did yeah I don't look I actually think if you're looking for a single driver there is there isn't a single driver but for that for me the most important is is actually the global financial crisis I think that's the point at which all of these stuff reach this stuff reached a Tipping Point and the global financial crisis essentially said this is why it was such a boon for the populace because they presenting themselves as the voice of the people they said this was caused by the elite it was caused by the bankers it was caused by the politicians it was caused by The Regulators Etc you the people are paying the price they're getting away with it that was the sort of the message I think that was the thing that tipped it and then into that they were then through polarization able to exploit issues like immigration overlooking the fact by the way that a lot of them had been the ones saying on as the voice of business isn't before Johnson decided that business was the slogan they were back there saying we've got to have a more liberal immigration policy because we have to but but direct answer to your question did that lead to part of the problem that led to brexit no doubt about it but partly because it was so well exploited by the other side and the other thing I'd say about populism they never ever solve problems they they just find new things to blame other people for so what yes we yes it became a problem but if I'm sort of putting myself now in the position that Tony and Gordon were at the time what were they saying they were saying well yeah but the question is do we actually impede to address some of these labor market issues and we did and we do

Channel: How To Academy Mindset

Views: 40,029

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Id: Ol_J_AbsgoY

Length: 24min 5sec (1445 seconds)

Published: Sun Jun 11 2023