Adam Boulton and Alistair Campbell recount their infamous fight

it's the turn of former labor spin doctor for Tony Blair now top podcaster Aleister Campbell Aleister welcome okay nobody told me this was about admitting mistakes when did this start well you don't mind admissing mistakes though do you we all make them it's totally fine we've got a long list here anyway you can choose which mistake you make I've got no I just want to ask you the first one are you sorry you're not at the labor conference because of course you're not a labor party member anymore well I could be there I could be there quite easily I've had lots of invitations to Fringe meetings so I'm sorry um not really no I mean I'll be following it very very closely uh we're recording the podcast tomorrow probably talk about it and I've got this new TV program starting on Tuesday on channel four so I'm down here to promote that which is called make me prime minister Adam it's very very good I'm really excited for that one Alistair but I want to kick off by asking you genuinely what what was the moment in your political life so far when you thought God what really has happened here what what was the one that really got you that sticks with you oh the worst not just the worst moment of my time in politics the worst moment in my life apart from the death of people very close to me was was David Kelly's death um and that was a moment where you know this is all published in my Diaries I I came I got off a plane I got in a car I came here to my house in North London and I was just I just couldn't face another day um and I think what it was it wasn't just the tragedy of it it was the fact that my position within the political debate and my relations with large parts of the media and with large parts of politics had reached a point where I I really couldn't see I couldn't see a way of of even getting back to a position where I wanted to be there um and that day it was only Tony Blair who was able to say to me look you know you've actually done nothing wrong so if you walk today uh you're almost like confessing guilt to the things that the right-wing media are trying to pin upon you and so he persuaded me to stay I did stay until the heart inquiry um yeah but that was that so and it wasn't just about that it was so I guess the lessons when you talk about the lessons you learn I I'm still learning them in a way because I I do think that I think we were a good government I think we did a good job on lots of the things we were trying to do but I was the guy in charge of our relations with the media and I think I did a good job on that as well but at the same time I must have done stuff that I could have done better to get my own relations with the media into such a bad place that I got them into um and I think one of the things I've drawn from that which I do practice in my life now which is very very different obviously because I'm no longer in such a sort of position I was but I think that you do reach a point of actually thinking you're more likely to do the right thing if you actually don't care that much about what our media are going to be saying and doing about it let's really do try to focus on doing what you think is the right thing um now you you were of course exonerated by uh the Hutton inquiry as was the government but again with hindsight you feel that you and the government and the way you handled uh the media you feel absolutely not responsible in any way for the death of David Kelly would that would that be right absolutely I mean I you know David dimbleby did a documentary about this the other day on the BBC and obviously he was doing it for the BBC and the story was about our dispute with the BBC but I think David if you watch it reached the conclusion that the the real fault in that whole episode was the reporting by Andrew Gilligan but I I guess I'm making so in relation specifically to that I think this came out at the HUD inquiry I think I did everything I could to deal with that situation in a serious and mature and responsible way but what I am saying is that I think that the fact that our relations with large parts of the media have become so toxic by then I don't think was just about Iraq I think a lot of it was about Iraq but actually I think it was stuff that had happened before that now I can argue that the changes we made were right that the changes we made were sensible given how biased so much of our media is against labor but at the same time I have to accept that you know we we must have contributed to that because we were such a big player within the within the media landscape so yeah and there's something I still think about what would and what we're talking about here you know because some people won't have been around or sort of been in political journalism or the political world at that time what we're talking about is Iraq you're talking now about the Hutton inquiry you're talking about the 45 minutes claim I mean that was incredibly controversial at the time and you mentioned yourself you did resign during the hunting inquiry I mean what what led up to that and what was the moment you know when you when you did make that decision did you feel happy about it did you feel sad about it I mean where were you mentally at that point well when I resign yes um a mix of those things really I I wasn't happy about leaving it because um you know I'd much rather have been like Jonathan Powell and one or two others who were there literally right from the word going right to the end but I knew I'd reach the end of the road I'd reach the end of the road um personally to be honest I'd reached the end of the road with my family Fiona my partner was really sick to death of it my kids I think although they were amazingly supportive they were sick to death of having the media outside the house as they were going to school um I think that and that of itself was ridiculous given I was lit really only the spokesman but I had I was getting as much attention as you know most of the politicians bar Tony Blair frankly um so I was relieved on one level I was glad to get out on the day itself even though people knew I was going to leave at some point I was really glad to be able to do it in my own terms nobody knew it was coming that day um and also just under 45 minutes point you say it was so controversial it wasn't actually that controversial until later it became incredibly controversial once Andrew Gilligan told his pack of lies on the BBC so I think that no but I was I was I actually maybe this is a better answer the question not long after I left I had one of the worst depressions of my life and it went on for quite a long time um and that must have been related I think it was a decompression I'd been coming out of the pressure of that job I came out of it I remember there was a moment David blunking came around for dinner and this was a few months after I left and I remember the phone went and I was on the phone and I was half listening to my daughter Grace talking to David blunkett and he said he said what's it like having your dad home old times you know it's nice you know it's nice to what does he do all day and she said well when I go to school in the morning it's sitting where you're sitting on the sofa and when I come home at night he's lying there fast asleep um and I was I was in a I was decompressed I was just in a massive depression that went on for quite a long time so that probably said no I wasn't that happy about leaving but I'm now in a position where no I knew I had to leave and and I knew it was actually probably right for the government that I left at that time I mean they've been some incredible High moments too over the course of your career I mean you've mentioned the things you're doing now but but previously I mean you've been credited with coining the phrase new labor and also in reference to Diana Princess of Wales the people's princess I mean you also played a huge role in The Good Friday agreement that some real kind of high points in in a political life as well as those lows that you've mentioned oh yeah way more way more um you know and I if I look back at the time that I worked with with the labor government I look back on it with a lot of satisfaction and a lot of Pride um The Good Friday agreement probably was the single biggest the single most wonderful moment the actual moment when it all fell into place was just like it was it was magical it really was magical I didn't funny enough I didn't enjoy any of the election wins um I was just not in I I just couldn't focus enough on the winning I was always on to the next thing um yeah so you know there have been some extraordinary uh events and I sometimes do that you know I remember once talked to my to my mum before she died and and she sort of you know she said she'd say things like I can't believe you've actually met Nelson Mandela and um you know stuff like so it's like so yeah or the queen you know my mom loved the queen I'm meeting the queen and I said oh yeah I saw the queen last week and she oh my God you met the queen um so yeah no it's been it was an amazing opportunity and I'm glad I'm glad that I did it and I do I look I look now at the state of of our government in particular and the state of our politics more generally um I think it's a complete mess I think this government is the worst government the most right-wing dangerous government we have ever had I think labor my yes you're right I'm not a member of the Low Project I was kicked out but my heart is still 100 labor and I think Labor's in with a chance but I still think that Labor's got to do a lot better than it's doing so I get I get very very low now about the state of our politics I do what I can I'm writing a book about it at the moment I do my podcast to do broadcasting I do campaigning on Mental Health other stuff but I am I I am honestly in a state of despair and when I think back to how politics felt when we were doing it when we were in government I just I can't see how anybody can think that wasn't a better era yeah and I have to ask you look I'm doing it right at the end of the show because I feel like it might be a risk because I have you both here although not both in person because at one point Adam Bolton Aleister Campbell you two did get into a bit of a row on air Alistar I mean that that was a it was a real it was a real moment wasn't it well I didn't realize it was such a moment to be honest until I got back to the office um when people were just sitting around on their computers watching it again and again and again to be fair to Adam and I've said this many times I it was if you think about it was the end of the 2010 election campaign and I know what it's like with election campaigns I'd gone back to help Gordon um Gordon I think actually did a pretty good campaign I think the results when they came in we thought well we might be in another chance here and some leading some sort of coalition government I thought it was in perfectly legitimate of Gordon to see how that could play out have discussions with Nick clegan and so forth and what happened was when Gordon decided to give that a go and he got the cabinet in to tell him what was going to happen he was going to resign at conference and all this sort of stuff there were no cabinet ministers to go and do the media so Andrew Adonis and I no was it Andrew I think it was Andrew Adonis and I might be Douglas Alexander we were sent out to do all the media so I Adam was about my 10th interview and to be fair I think Adam was exhausted I was exhausted as well um but I think I kept my call better which is not always the case now you certainly kept your cool better but I was right on the element oh no you weren't into positions of former government which you subsequently realized was true right I'm not starting this one all over again even though you are in completely different parts of the country Alistair Campbell thank you so much for joining us it's been a real fascinating chat to have with you there thank you

Channel: Times Radio

Views: 31,198

Keywords: timesradio, alastair campbell, alastair campbell (politician), corruptible: who gets power and how it changes us, fiona millar, david axelrod (politician), tony blair, author interviews, in conversation live, in conversation with, brian klaas corruptible, humanitas, brian klaas, iain martin, corruption, geopolitics, global leaders, political books, global politics, royal society of medicine, iop, crassh, books, power

Id: kUySAs8ZigM

Length: 11min 51sec (711 seconds)

Published: Sun Sep 25 2022