Keir Starmer: The Reality Of Life As Leader Of The Opposition

this week on high performance sir Kia stammer being led to Live party or leave the opposition is a bit like sort of I don't know being the England manager where everybody can do your job better than you everybody's got an opinion on your job that you should be doing I wouldn't have played him at left back or don't know what that's all about I know what difficult decisions are and I know they have to be taken you cannot have a situation we say well that's too difficult I'm going to walk away from it that isn't leadership my mum was very very ill all of her life and she had this amazing courage she would always get back up somehow should get back up get back to her feet and so when I'm in that moment I just there's a bit of me that thinks if my mum can get up I can get up I didn't grow up thinking I would be or particularly wanting to be an MP it's not about kirst armor walking through the door number 10. push to one side what you can push to one side focus on what you're trying to achieve and remember it isn't about you because when you're being subject to that kind of criticism it feels very personal I don't regret very much in life but last time I saw my dad he was in hospital tile and I walked away and I knew he was going to die and I didn't turn around to go back and tell him what I thought and I should have done hey everyone it's Jake here it was just a big thank you to all of our new subscribers here on YouTube and we've had some amazing comments as well uh we had a really nice quote from Rhys who left a comment under the Ryan Mason upload recently Ryan is the coach at Spurs football club brilliant episode he said you never truly know what people have been through in their lives what an amazing guy in Dell says an inspirational Soulful humble human and that's the point of high performance we are giving you the truth behind the headlines so you can really get to know people hit subscribe please right now because the more subscribers the bigger the channel the bigger the channel the bigger the knees okay welcome to high performance thank you very much let's just be sort of really clear at the top what this is about this is a conversation about a person right not a political conversation no talk about policy no point scoring nothing like that we're not in Westminster now this sounds very good this is just the truth really about who you are where you've come from and where you would one day love to be does that sound okay that sounds good good so to that end I read um an interview recently actually with your Deputy Angela Rayner and she said she overshares but Kia under shares so first of all how do you feel having a conversation like this I'm getting used to it it's the sort of thing that um I felt very uncomfortable about if I'm honest um a few years ago I'm getting used to it um I do think um it's really interesting to explore more where people come from um and you know I think some of the things that Angela said about over showing an unsharing are just a fascinating insight into different personalities why do you think you sort of struggled with it early on because I've never spent my life sort of analyzing what happened when I grew up what I felt about it um I'm asked now much more about my mum and dad than I ever was um in other jobs that I've done um and I've always been sort of very focused on an outcome you know what am I trying to achieve where's the goal how do we get to that goal um rather than having that conversation with myself about what does this all mean and I mean absolutely I think Angela was spot on by the way it was such an interesting observation it was very Angela observation she's got brilliant sort of antennae um about her oversharing and me undersharing and sort of holding quite a lot back inside me um and I think if you hold quite a lot back inside you you don't particularly want to do podcasts like this right well we're going to deal with deep today let's start the podcast with the way that we always do in your mind what is high performance I think high performance for me is about outcomes it's about whether you can achieve that outcome usually difficult outcomes um and that is high performance um I think it's probably changed over the years I mean I've obviously came through being a lawyer then ran a public service now into politics so it changes but it's definitely out comes focused for me I mean what I would say just to qualify that and it's not really what a difference to what I think is important in terms of high performance I think what I've learned along the road as it were is you can achieve the same things in different ways so I think there's a point in our lives where we think the only way to achieve something is to behave in this way or to be focused in that way the more I've seen people lead teams the less convinced I am about that I think you can achieve the same things in different ways different styles um the other thing I'd say is I think high performance is different in different places it depends what people are doing my sister for example is a care worker that's a high performance job in a completely different way so for me it's about outcomes I think that that reflects the job I'm doing rather than a fixed view on what high performance is so given the different roles that you've had in your career care from being a lawyer to Leading a public service to now being the head of a political party what are the changes that you've Incorporated along those different roles that still allow you to get to those outcomes I think one of the biggest changes for me has been the scale so when I give you an example when I started as a lawyer I was a barrister therefore an advocate so you're pretty much on your own with quite a small team that you would put together for the purpose of a particular case you'd be arguing a case on behalf of somebody you probably have a team of maybe three or four people totally focused on that case the team only stayed together for the purpose of that case it broke up afterwards because you go into a different case um and so it's relatively small scale very very focused only one outcome that matters which is the particular case you're doing nothing broader than that um and then moved on to sort of if you like strategic litigation which instead of doing each case one by one can't we sort of tackle a issue in a bigger way and form bigger teams um but I'd say the there were two or three turning points really important developments for me the first was um having gone from sort of individual cases to strategic cases one of the Strategic cases we did for example was challenging the death penalty and countries other countries around the world but then I went to work in Northern Ireland on implementing some of the Good Friday agreement proposals which were in my case about changing the police they oh you see the old uh the um uh Ulster constabury in Northern Ireland into the police service and all none so this was the idea that a a different Police Service was going to emerge after the Good Friday agreement that would be much more transparent human rights compliance Etc and up until that point in my life I'd been the individual lawyer sort of railing against um the system from the outside and this was my first opportunity to work with the police and the policing board um changing from the inside and that was a really Insight how do you affect change um different kind of leadership altogether from the inside because then you've got to get people on your side you've got to influence them change the way they think and change in that case the nature of the police service Northern Ireland and then after that I became director of public prosecutions and headed up the crown prosecution service and I had you know seven or eight thousand staff now that's a big thing when you used to having a team of four or five and suddenly I had to think well how do you influence someone on the the this was we had about 100 offices across England and Wales how do I influence what somebody does the other side of the country um what are the leadership behaviors that have to change in order to do that so I think there are big changes along the way and then dive into what they are before we move to the next one well I think the um the first which was working with the Police Service in Northern Ireland is yeah how how do you um operate in such a way that you can make sure people have trust and confidence in what you're doing in such a way that they will want to change the organization in which we're all working that is a very different skill to arguing a case in court um and then this question of how do you affect change on us at scale which was something to change or were you trying to get them to suggest what the changes should be how what was the a bit of both take the crown prosecution service um I knew it had to change and I wanted it to be much more open and transparent and that when we were taking decisions we would explain them um so to give you an example of what I mean by that um some of the most difficult decisions were in areas which were people had very strong and different views so for example assisted suicide one of the first cases that landed on my desk was a case of the mother of a person called Dan James Dan was a fantastic rugby player um and um he was up at Loughborough and he was on the verge of getting into the England team when a scrum collapsed on him on a rainy Saturday afternoon and um he was very very badly injured um paralyzed from the neck down and um in a really was at Stoke Mandeville for a while but never um recovered and got more and more depressed didn't want to live didn't want to live and um his Mum would fight with him about that as you can imagine um but in the end he decided to take his own life by going to dignitas and his mum went with it um and when she got back she was arrested for cities suicide and this came across my desk as director of public prosecution and I took the view that it wasn't in the public interest for him for her to be prosecuted for assisting in his suicide in the particular circumstances but that once I'd made that decision I realized we had to go further than that which was to open up the whole decision making around assisted suicide to the public so people could have confidence in what we were doing so I wanted to bring change and amongst the change I wanted at the crown prosecution service was that the more I felt stronger the more we showed our workings the more people have confidence in what we're doing um and therefore I was trying to bring about change um and learning how you do that across an organization was really important to me but it is a two-way process because the other thing I learned at the crown prosecution service and it stayed with me is um if you really want to know how to fix the things in the organization that aren't working ask your staff and ask your junior staff so we had these hundreds or so offices across England and Wales and I'd visit each of them quite regularly at least once a year are trying to get to once every other year so I do about 50 a year ago out to these offices and whatever the program was for the day the first thing I'd do is say can I just have 20 minutes on my own with the most junior staff with no supervisors in the room and it was so insightful and I asked them two questions routinely the first was what's the biggest problem challenge that you've got every day you do your job and what's the work around because the staff will always find a way around the problem and so brilliant ideas about how we'd reform and the second equally instructive I thought was when's the last time your manager said thank you to you and that was really revealing you'd have some stuff would say look my manager is actually quite good they know exactly what I'm doing they do come down every Friday and thank us someone say you know what I can't remember and then for someone they've really opened up so you know the other day I was sort of working on this case I was running up around the building we just about got it done in time and nobody noticed brilliant and it was such an insight into how you manage people how you lead people well that reminds us in in our interviews that we've done here we we once sat down with James timson that runs the the shoe repair shop business yeah and one of the things that he talks about in his is that he does regular question and answer sessions with his staff and the killer question he asks is uh is uh would you let your child work here because he feels that that gets to the heart of is is this culture acceptable because you could live with it but if your child couldn't yeah we're doing something fundamentally wrong what is it that you felt those two questions gave you as information as a leader of the CPS well the first question which is what's the problem and how you're going to fix it is um a a real insight into what's going wrong and what what's the weight I'm a big believer in fixing things um particularly now I'm in politics um what I can't stand is people who describe a problem very very well and there are lots of people can do that in politics everybody does it all the time here's the problem here's the problem you can have eloquent speeches about what the problem is um and I want to know what's the all you know what's the solution what how do you fix this thing um you know I think we've all got an idea what the problem is but how are we actually going to fix it what's the fix to this it's very in politics it's it's the missing bit most of the time and I got that from the staff because they they would if you're there's something in the office isn't working properly and it's not working every day in the end you find a way to fix it you find something a way to work around the problem and so there's the what's the problem how do we fix it was a really important part of my learning from that the saying thank you was um a real sense of how you value all members of the team if you've got members of the team who are not even being thanked for the job they're doing um then you haven't got a very um you know High performing team in my view because in the end if people don't feel that their contribution is uh I was gonna say respected but even acknowledged um then the likelihood that they're going to you know muck in and be high performing is is pretty low so there's quite a lot to learn from that I I'm really interested in the fact that you know you clearly want to deeply understand people you want to deeply understand problems and you've also I guess realized that you know things are nuanced it's not this and that black and white A and B right yet we live in a world where politics is totally not nuanced at all it is more polarizing than ever before so with all of your sort of Natural Instincts from having impact and driving change how do you feel about um you know the kind of um School playground type prime minister's questions or going on um like TV political TV shows or news programs where it's sometimes feel it's like the only aim for the journalist is to do a kind of gotcha catch you out kind of moment you know like how much is a pint of milk type questions yeah how how does the modern political world sit with your kind of deep desire to actually have genuine impact for the right reasons I really hate that side of politics yeah um and I think do we have to have it our system is set up as an adversarial system if you like if you even the layout of the House of Commons if you think about it you've got um it's a sort of rectangular shape what on one side you've got all the benches the government on the other side you've got all the benches of your opposition so you're both staring at each other across a divide um and if you stand at the dispatch box um speaking in Parliament um it is a very interesting experience it's obvious once I've said it but until I did it I didn't quite appreciate it you stand up the moment you stand up at the dispatch box almost every friendly face is now behind you and you've got a wall of faces that are going to vehemently disagree with what you're saying and it's so very very tribal divided um way of doing things there are other Chambers you know other parliaments around the world that are horseshoe shaped um to avoid that but we've got a very adversarial confrontation relational system I have to say coming in from outside of politics I didn't come into politics until later in life when I've done other things um I don't find it at all comfortable I don't think it achieves very much the best part of the week for me is when prime minister's questions is over and I can get out of parliament across the country I was in Scotland earlier this week that would be typical to go straight out to see what is happening actually in the world outside of parliament because my strong belief is outside of politics if there is a problem in an organization a team something which you're leading the instinct when something goes wrong all those problems to fix is to get people around the table and say right you know what's the problem how do we fix it what's people's views on this and let's move forward in politics the instinct is to say we've got all the answers they've got none of the answers um under us everything be fine until then everything's terrible and I don't think it actually um you know is a good way of driving forward the sort of change that we need it also leads to something which it it leads to a sort of short-term thinking so instead of recognizing that some things are going to take quite a long time to fix there's this sort of sense that you can do everything within a five-year political cycle most of the time um the problems that we're actually confronting are going to take longer so when you're building teams now I mean you know it's different if someone's an MP because you don't decide who is or isn't but when you're deciding who is in your Shadow cabinet who do you want to work closely with but actually who are the non non-mp members of staff that you're going to work with who do you want to hire what are the questions you ask what are the things that you look for who do you want around you the people I want around me are people that um can come to really sound judgments and I can totally trust them because obviously we're very busy we've got a lot of things going on and one of my weaknesses I guess is getting to that point where I can trust someone's judgment so I think you know she remembers of my staff here can try it out on them later on but um I think that when I first start working with someone um it takes a while until I trust their judgment and therefore the relationship is one where I'm exactly questioning what's that about you know just walk me through that tell me the thinking behind this and I'm sort of testing it which must be quite hard but once it gets oh it gets to a point where I think this person knows what they're talking about I trust the Judgment then it clicks into a much better place so you can't trust them on one interview or you know one half hour conversation before you hire them so what are the things you ask to kind of think that person's got eventually what what you want from them so asking for an example of something they've done is always very good asking them what their detractors would say about them is always really really interesting in terms of where what people's real self um awareness um and trying to find um a sort of I can't stand bullshitters and trying to get to that point in an interview or get to that point quickly it's really important for me um I just can't stand people who sort of um are bullshitting about something you know if there's if there's a problem let's know what it is let's have an honest conversation um and get on with it even if you've got something wrong let's just find out what the problem is and get it sold so what I'm looking for in that interview is is the sort of seeds of the person who is not going to go down that rabbit hole um but is going to be in a position to take responsibility for their own decisions can I try a kirst armor question out on you yep what would your detractors say about you I think firstly they might say takes too long to get to a position of trust with people and I can see that's really irritating because if you are good at your job and you really do know what you're talking about you probably don't want kyostarma questioning you the whole time and cross-examining you until he's got to the point of thinking I now trust your judgment I can see um that that is a weakness and uh an irritant the the other I'm trying to avoid what a lot of people do which is to say oh that sounds too hard working or something you know how people always turn around you're so humble my weakness is I'm so brilliant um I will actually go with Angela Rayners um observation of undersharing I think she's right about that and I think that sometimes that can lead to members of the team thinking you don't care enough you're not um showing enough emotion about this particular issue therefore I as a member of him and taking from this that somehow you don't care about it which is completely wrong and so her observation I think I've reflected on that quite a lot because I think I think she's probably right about that yeah and that's an interesting one because that's an observation from someone that actually knows you yeah so I think even when they're wrong I think we can be more accepting of observations from people who know us care about us and want the best for us where it gets really difficult is when the observations don't come from those people they come from people with a with an agenda and we know the way it works in this country with politics and opposition parties and the media and the public and social media and you know aggression online and I'm not interested in um the political angle to this I'm really interested in the human angle to this you're I wouldn't say you're an extrovert right no so to put yourself out in the world like you do and to get the scrutiny and at times the criticism that you do would you be happy to share with us actually how it really feels to be subjected to the scrutiny the criticism the polarized opinions and I guess at times the sense of unfairness that perhaps all politicians on every party at times feel yes I do and let's not make it party political because I think it is um for politicians across the board because it's a it's a funny old business I mean I often say to people being leader Live party or leave the opposition is a bit like um sort of I don't know being the England manager where everybody can do your job better than you everybody's got an opinion on your job that you should be doing I wouldn't have played him a left back or don't know what that's all about um and so my job is very much like this now everybody thinks they could do a better job and is not you know very happy to give advice um on it and there are ups and downs when things are going well that sort of goes down a bit if I'm honest and then when they're not going so well the heat is really really on um and it's really hard when you've got lots of people saying um pretty you know um you know negative stuff about what you're trying to do and um somehow you have to shut it out I think you just for me it's about um I remember giving this just almost like blinkering it so being really clear what am I trying to achieve what is the goal let me just focus on that and push the rest of it out it's hard to do it's really really hard to do but I think if you didn't do it you would just get dragged away and possibly not be able to do it um and then does the share resilience of just getting back up um and you know when when you're having a bad time everybody's on you um and there's a lot of noises off just getting back up and doing it again can be really tough what's been the hardest Moment In the Journey so far we I mean that what you've really thought is this worth what I have to put myself through since I've been leader in labor party it was in 2021 when we just lost Hartlepool badly um and um that really hurt as a team it was you know I'd been leader for just over a year things were beginning to go in the right direction and suddenly we said they had this major setback and um and it hurt it was like being punched in the stomach um and it was it emotionally hurt to be honest because I was determined that we would pick the labor party up from where it landed in 2019 and turn it into a party that could serve the country and win an election and suddenly we had this result in Hartlepool that sort of uh really brought us to our senses and it hurt and in retro after the event I now think it's good that it hurts um it didn't feel too good at the time but it only hurt if it if you were so determined um to have won yeah um but that was really hard and you know yeah we had I don't know 20 um journalists and photographers outside our front door all of the time for days on end and so it feels like you can't get away from it even in your own home you're sort of indoors but out the moment you step out there's cameras there's people you know uh wanting to ask you questions and you know we've got relatively young kids um and that sense of there's nowhere to get away from this now I think is really I found it very hard I think um a lot of politicians would have found it hard and how you just shut that out as best you can and plow on um even though you know lots of people are being pretty disparaging and how do you do that like we had I'm thinking like the way you described being feeling like you've been punched when we spoke to Tyson Fury on this podcast he spoke around where his brain goes to when he's been hurt and he and he he thinks of all the occasions where he's been hurt in the past and how almost the evidence builds confidence that I can come back from this how do you do it mentally to be able to keep going and keep forging ahead firstly I think I am I'd sort of go in on myself and almost a protective Crouch or absorb it into myself um and then begin the process of shutting out what I can shut out reminding myself what it is I'm trying to achieve and therefore that I've got to overcome this there's a very important part for me as well which is reminding myself that this is not about me that what I'm trying to achieve is not about me and this is it's always hard to get this over um I've tried several times before and it can be misconstrued I didn't grow up thinking I would be or particularly wanting to be an MP because something in my head I was a working class background my dad works in a factory my mom was a nurse and there was an inhibitor in there somewhere that was saying this isn't a job that someone like you is going to do here and therefore I didn't have this lifelong dream of being leader of the labor party or being prime minister um and therefore I desperately want us to win the next general election because I know what we can do if we do win that general election but that is about having a labor government which will change the country for the better for millions of people it's not about kirstahoma walking through the door number 10. and that right I don't know whether that makes any sense at all it does um and um therefore this isn't so that one day there will be an image of me at number 10 it's because we need a labor government and I have to remind myself of that when I'm in that position to get out of it again which is right take take the heat absorb it put away what you push to one side what you can push push to one side focus on what you're trying to achieve and remember it isn't about you because when you're being subject to that kind of criticism it feels very personal and so it's it's that and then um something works for me different people will have different versions of this but um my mum was very very ill all of her life really ill she had Stills disease which is a disease that attacks your immune system when you're 11. and then she at steroids um when she was a teenager which helped with the Stills disease but caused all sorts of awful problems later in life so there came a point where she couldn't walk she couldn't properly use her hands she had to have a leg amputated and she was in and out of Hospital a lot in very very very serious situations so um I've been in intensive care and high dependency in this with my mum many many times well it's been Touch and Go and she had this amazing courage and determination she would never moan even if you asked her in a sort of almost life and death situation how are you she's always say I'm all right how are you and she would always get back up somehow she'll get back up and get back to her feet in the most impossible circumstances where sometimes when I looked at her in high dependency and I couldn't see how she could ever get up again and interestingly towards the end of her life when she couldn't get back up again it it in the end it it destroyed her and um and so when I'm in the moment I just there's a bit of me that thinks if my mum can get up I can get up um and whatever the criticism that's not the same as a life and death situation where my mum got back up and so it's a there's a long answer to a question which is there are complicated things that I think happen that give you a sort of resilience to get through um a difficult set of circumstances um and and you know most of the time they're they're the very low moments in politics um there are many other times when it's simply not that bad um but they're they're the lowest and and the additional Factor now is we've got children and it and how do I protect them through this is something I do worry about can we explore the relationship with your mom though because as you're describing what sounds like a pretty harrowing and and troubling experience of being in those High dependency units I'm reminded of I remember reading many years ago Jeremy Paxman wrote a book about our Prime Ministers and one of the trends that he spotted about them was that many of them had experienced childhood difficulties some had lost parents at a young age some had had parents that had maybe had illnesses like yours and I think one of my favorite quotes on here is the ghost of your childhood that still rattles around your adult body those experiences form you they form your views your beliefs your judgments what did that do for your senior mum struggle like that best thing is I say I agree with you that those things do influence um how you are if I'm honest with myself I've only come laterally to understand quite how they've influenced me and I think to some extent I'm still coming to terms with how they've influenced me so and I'd speak about my mum and my dad here my mum as I've described very ill um but incredibly CR um so courageous and determined warm loving and always there for others not moaning about herself was an incredible example an incredible example um and that's given me a determination like nothing on Earth I mean just you know nothing will get in the way of what we have to achieve you know being absolutely clear-eyed and focused on what is it from a mum which was I'm going to get through this situation I'm going to get up and perhaps I'm going to walk again I'm going to work Incredible strength it was deep deep deep in her um in her being this sense that I think it's probably although I don't know being told as an 11 year old or just past 11 she was told by the time he's 20 he won't walk and you definitely won't have kids and I've never talked this through with her and I've obviously I can't now but I've I've just imagined that it triggered something in her that something into no way um and then it kept and the steroids actually because she bought for the story she probably wouldn't have been walking and I'm not sure whether she would have had kids but it gave her that opportunity and so that really you know drove her because my mum was so dependent physically on help the relationship between her and my dad was very intense he was an incredible man he was totally devoted and committed to her um learned everything about every aspect of her illness when she was in hospital he would be there the whole time he would you know sleep on any bench in the corridor of the hospital or whatever he wouldn't leave the hospital until she was coming home incredibly dedicated and everything was premised on Mom and Howard get mum through um and that that these are things I'm thinking through more now to be honest because I reflect a lot of my relationship with my dad in recent years more than I probably did in the previous 20 years before that and um not so much when he was alive gave me this incredible sense of Duty and loyalty because he was just his duty was to look after my mum you know it was like The Vow he took when he got married was just Seer through him it was his duty to do it to be there to absolutely be there and he kept her alive on a number of occasions because he knew exactly what was going on and what exactly to do so that Duty um commitment again piecing this together I'm not pretending to be an expert on this but that thing that Angela said about undersharing where did that come from a bit of me thinks it was because the intensity of that relationship about my mum's illness was such that there wasn't much emotional space for much else in our household it was quite a small household quite tightly in um and I don't know there was the emotional space for us to perhaps express ourselves in the way we might otherwise have done because everything was quite intense around making sure mum was right and I think that's obviously had an effect on Me Maybe holding things in that I if I was Andrew I'd probably share more um so I do and and the other thing that is again I've reflected on much much more in recent years is and now I think I understand better is that my dad worked in a factory so is work on the factory floor um which is tough really tough um physical work but he was skilled as a tool maker highly skilled but he felt all his life disrespected and so I could tell the conversation he hated was the conversation with people sort of standing around with a coffee or a drink and saying well what do you do for a living and so I said well I I'm a civil servant I'm a teacher what do you do I work in a factory and there'd be a moment of quiet when he said that and then the conversation move on and and that moment for him I think made him feel really disrespected and looked down but he felt people look down on him and I think he's probably right and for me one of the reasons that respect is so important is is that short period of Silence that used to follow my dad saying what he did for a living and that's made me it's bound together my mom's sort of determination with that sense of Injustice that every everybody should have respect and dignity but so much what you're saying kid like we can sit like as we're listening to it like that ties in with the fact that you've gone as the most junior members anyone said thank you to you and things like that I'm interested in why is it taking you so long to do this reflection that you can see the pieces of it that would have that predate it but I don't know is the true answer to that but as I reflect on that I think it's because my sort of focus on outcomes I've got to achieve this I've got to win this case I've got to do this I've got to um make sure that we're absolutely if we go into court we're going to be fully prepared we've got to get absolutely everything right because I have a duty to the person that I'm representing um to make sure that if we possibly can we win their case so it's very outcome outcome outcome Focus can we prepare is every bit of preparation right not for me but for the person I'm representing there's sort of that determination my mum due to my dad hardwired together but outcome right what's the next outcome right with that case is done what's the next case um right now we're in Northern Ireland with the Police Service of Northern Ireland what's the outcome that we want how do we bind this together and then into the next phase of my life which is running the crown prosecution service same thing so I'm sort of running towards the outcome the whole time almost not wanting to or thinking that I need to reflect on um you know what's the hard wiring here that's making you do this I never set out on this path I didn't I didn't know what a lawyer was particularly when I went to Leeds to study law I would never met a lawyer I didn't you know no experience about being a lawyer no I was first of my family to go to university didn't know what a lawyer was but sort of plowed on towards the goal then through the cases then through more strategic litigation into Northern Ireland and the crown prosecution service and and into Politics the same thing which is a deep sense having worked five years running the prosecution service that I can't bring about the change I need to bring about unless I get on to a bigger stage which is politics where there are better there are better ways of bringing around a bigger outcome um but on whether This was um my mum or not I don't know but running towards the goal meant I never reflected on the journey yeah so the questions you're asking me this is not a conversation I would have been having 10 years ago sure when did your parents pass away so my mum passed away in 2015 just a few weeks before I was elected in as an MP which was really sad yeah and then my dad passed away um in 2018 um and you know you've said you're you're a different person now to the person who particularly when your mum was still alive you know in 2015 had the person that would have maybe had different conversations then we always ask at the end you know what would advice would you give a teenage Kia I'm interested what you would want to say to your mum and dad if they were still here and they were able to hear you talking in this new kind of reflective open and honest way um I think I think my mum knew what I thought of her and was a very warm woman yeah it's taken me much longer to work out my relationship with my dad because he was biased by Nature more distant um and so bound up with how he looked after my mum and almost a retreat from the social scene because he didn't like that question what you do for a living that it was never that it didn't feel close um and I don't regret very much in life but last time I saw my dad he was in hospital died and I walked away and I knew he was going to die I just knew it it was end of life stuff anyway I knew I wouldn't see him again and I didn't turn around to go back and tell him I thought and I should have died and that you know is this advice for my teenage self I don't know it's hardwired advice for myself in relation to my relationship with our children so I've tried to make sure that is completely different and that they that we are together we talk and we know each other I mean I'm sure they'll be sitting in the podcast like this in years to come saying God you know dad used to you know insist on taking us to kickboxing or swing or whatever and if you had to turn back what would you have said to your dad I said I would have said I love you I'd have also said I'm proud of you I'd have tried to close that Gap that was so important to him in his life you probably knew that already I would imagine I hope so [Music] um it's so interesting isn't it having these these types of conversations because I think life moves at such a pace I mean the life you've lived especially moves at such a pace but I think it's only often when we stop and we realize that the Great Moments the hard moments the relationships the things that were left unsaid like they're all such an important part of what where we're at and and how we did how we live you know I agree and I think one of the hardest things in a job worry on in the public domain is that public private yeah getting the balance right is very important and so for example I'm very insistent that we will always stop work at six o'clock on a Friday and I will spend time with effect my wife and our children you know most of the time arguing about what takeaway we're going to get to even get them off to the iPad so get all that but it's just I don't want to be that bloke in 10 years it says I wish I'd spent more time with my children if you want to spend more time with your children spend more time with your children um and so there's that bit of the public private which is really hard to get right but I'm determined I actually people think that it's a sign of strong leadership or that it's busy leadership that if you can say my dire is so full I can't see my wife and children that is somehow a good um that is um a description of a good leader I don't think so yeah um but the more intense moments the more difficult ones um and just to give you two examples of this because this is where your the struggle with the the public life and the private life really becomes quite acute so when we had the leadership race for the labor party um my wife's mum had an awful Lots and died and as you can imagine like my wife was in utter bits and somehow and I found that really hard because I was trying to reach her this was in many ways for me I lost my own parents but to to try to reach someone who was losing and lost theirs was really hard and to go from that to you're on stage I could almost feel the team saying okay you know you're on um you've got to do the next hustings you've got to go out there and you know the cameras will be on the lights to be on and you're expected to project confidence Etc and uh that's quite hard to turn around in a short period of time you know taking a call just before you go on stage and then going on stage family and friendships are not about all the times you get together a cup of tea and a drink or that that's all good but the real test is are you actually there when you need to be there this is not about this is this will be the same for anybody doing a publicly facing role the um intensity of that is hard I mean Mark Drakeford who's the labor leader in Wales lost his wife in awful so you know in in suddenly and unexpectedly and I could I can see the the struggle yeah the struggle of dealing with something private whilst having to be in public so you chose to go into this this public Life as a politician relatively late Asia said you've you'd had a life a rich life and successful life before it and one of the things that I found fascinating in the books that the Obamas have done was the where they've almost opened the doors into the conversations that took place before Barack Obama chose to go into public life and he's been very explicit how his wife was quite dead against it because she could see the the uh all all of these inconveniences for one of a better term that came your way I'm interested in the conversations that you would have had behind closed doors with Vicky wife and who else was involved in that before you made that decision to go and so and be subject to some of these kind of experiences you've described yeah I mean now [Music] there are many conversations along the way I mean I think Vic would have probably preferred I didn't do it um because she would know what was involved in doing it and is brilliantly supportive I think she she if she was sitting here she would say yeah but I know you'd I knew you were going to do it anyway and therefore you know we had to talk through how you're going to do it because she was known that that sort of focus on the outcome focus on the goals would drive me through and almost no holding back in a way but I think if she were asked she would say she'd rather um I'd done something else um having finished being director of public prosecutions um and then you know my friends I mean one of my very very good friends and I've got really intense strong friendships that I've had with people for a very very long time so which actually helps as well going back to the earlier discussion so I've always got a retreat place um if I'm you know in if I'm being attacked Etc I've got strong lifelong friendships with people who um know me because of who I am where do they come from from childhood from school stall uni playing football that sort of thing but two or three of them and one of the people I've known from school very very good friend of mine um when I had the conversation with him about running for Lee Triple A Party he was dead against it he said what's going to do to your family what's going to you why why do you want that life so he was just he wasn't you know how some people say oh what a great thing here you know fantastic you'd be little low party you know what a great thing to do which it obviously is he was he was against it he just thought this is gonna you know you're gonna put yourself through something which isn't worth it for your family and for life and that that's really lovely because he was just focusing on me and not you know anything wider than that but I guess what he doesn't have is the energy you have for wanting to enact change or feeling like we live in a world of Injustice and wanting to write that just as it shows the strength of um the strength of that that even with the advice you know maybe from your wife and from your your good friends like you still decided that this was the right path do you ever have regrets about it no and for all you know we've concentrated a lot on the sort of some of the challenges of the job it is you know it is the privilege of my life to be leader alone party you pinch myself sometimes this is you know the late party is you know in my view the sort of single most important Force for change that this country has ever known if you look I'll get two part political in this podcast be look at what labor governments have done huge achievements you know the Health Service equal pay sure start peace in Northern Ireland I mean it could go on and on and on incredible Force for good that's changed millions of lives and to be leading that party is an incredible privilege um and to be leading that party in the hope that we might win an election and change the country for the better is fantastic you know and therefore I you know because we've focused on the challenges the sense that you know it's only hardship of course there's all of that that'll be there and I'd readily acknowledge by the way that this is there for leaders in other political parties readily acknowledge that um I think for women it's more difficult than men in leadership positions but politics in particular so this isn't um about me or about low party but it is an incredible um you know privilege and opportunity if we win that election and change millions of lives for the better what an incredible thing to be able to do and to restore Politics as a Force for good which it can be and should be and where does imposter syndrome sit in your life because the senior leaders and the high Achievers and the artists and entrepreneurs that have sat on this podcast to a man and woman have told us they imposter syndrome exists what's your relationship with it not very strong I mean I don't um associate with the syndrome very much at all I mean I've readily accept as I did earlier that um this is not a path of predestiny for me um but I don't really I mean I don't have that imposter syndrome in the way that I know I mean many people in politics and in other walks do have it to a level um what about doubt then because I think you know making a decision about what time for dinner is one thing making a decision that could change or save or take lives as you have to when you're at the top of politics like they are huge decisions how are you with decision making and I'd love to find out how you come to those big decisions that when do you press the button um firstly For Better or For Worse I've had to make tough decisions for a while now so it's not just as leader low party and one of the examples I'd give of that is when I was a lawyer I got very involved in doing death penalty cases so this will be representing people who are on death row usually in countries that used to be part of the Commonwealth that are part of Commonwealth used to be colonies uh whether it's death by hanging and we worked intensively in some countries in the Caribbean and I would go out there with teams to represent uh some of the individuals on death row sometimes groups of individuals and to sit in a cell with somebody who is literally going to live or die according to whether you win the case um brings into very sharp focused difficult decisions so um I know what difficult decisions are and I know they have to be taken you can't you cannot have a situation we say well that's too difficult I'm going to walk away from it that isn't leadership that's why that's not why you're in a leadership position you have to take that decision you have to be yes fully for informed as possible it has to be tested you've got to get it right um but you've got to take the decision and if you can't take the decision you shouldn't be in that position and therefore it's it's it's a necessary part of what you're doing I've seen other people making decisions when I was in Northern Ireland I saw um I was we were with the Police Service I was um the human rights advisor I was in the control room when there was a dangerous situation in Northern Ireland unfolding and there was various footage camera footage of someone who would got a gun um and was making their way towards other people and the fears for the worst and I saw the senior officers going up and down with the monitors the screen as the sound control um knowing that he had to make a decision whether to authorize the officers on the ground to use Force to use lethal Force if necessary the final decision whether to fire would be theirs but he knew once he'd given that authorization that was a possible next step and just to see and respect the decision he knew what decision he had he knew how to make a decision he knew he wanted to be totally informed but he knew the consequence of his decision what did you learn from the way he operated in that moment I learned that that's how you make decisions which is absorb absorb absorb take it in but be clear you've got to make petition and be clear what the consequences are but don't he didn't have the um luxury of shying away because if he shied away that meant the person who with the gun if they then use that gun might kill someone so he didn't have the luxury there is if you're in a leadership position where you've got like tough decisions um it's learning and appreciating there are tough consequences whichever way you go so you can't just pull back um and if you want to pull that you probably shouldn't be in the leadership position because that's what leadership is about so can I ask about the end of days as a leader then because I'm conscious you're an artist yeah but but what I mean is like when you spoke about when you left the CPS that that your time was up there and you made a decision to go into politics you as an Arsenal fan you live through the reign of Fenger yeah where he was in an incredible leader but those last few years were soured by people feeling that his time was open urging him to make a decision what have you learned about the time to walk away from a leadership bill when you feel that I've done what I can do it's time to pass over I think it's exactly that I've done what I can do and I now need to go um so I felt strongly I mean these are the sort of steps on my journey I felt as a lawyer I'd gone as far as I could as an individual lawyer and I needed to change and get within an organization that's when I went to work with the Police Service in Northern Ireland so I left behind the um Advocates if you like and got inside the organization bringing back change in Northern Ireland yeah that took me on to being director of public prosecution I mean my time in online was really really important to me because it yeah I developed a sense of changing things in a different way having worked five years as the Director public prosecutions it was the end of you know you do a five-year term I knew I needed to move on that I'd done what I could do um and had to move on I also felt strongly that having knowing I had five years was important because you know when you've got a big organization you've got probably about a year or so to get to know the organization um you've got probably about six months at the end when you everybody knows you're going so you're um so influence begins to wane and therefore you've got it for those four years you've got to be punching fast and hard and getting the change you want to bring about um so knowing when you should step back and go is really important when you've gone as far as you can in the job that you're doing um is important I think there's there's a different way of knowing there's a slightly smaller version of what you've just put to me which is really important as well which is being able to get away from the job um and get so I mean this is triggered by your mentioning Arsenal um I play football every week um I'd still since I've ten I've played football used to be twice a week even sometimes three times but not only once and what's your position um middle Midfield on the left-hand side you know shouting instructions um pretending I'm a box-to-box player and those playing alongside me now would say that that is just you know a theory of the past year it's not the present anymore but um but in that moment on the football pitch nothing matters other than football I'm playing now playing just with mates that I've known for a long time there's the usual bands have but the politics and the decision and the stress I mean it's another way of getting through this difficult it all goes to one side as you just does a single Pursuit which is put that ball in the back of the mat um and win I'm not one of these people that will say oh it's great to take part and you know if I'm playing football I'm on the pitch to win um that's the sole objective um but going to Arsenal is a different version of that because you know go now um with my boy my girl come sometimes I meet um really close friends I've known for a long time and we all meet chat before the game walk down to the game watch the game all of that as a sort of ritual that's to do you know the actual watching the game is fantastic but it's a small part of what this is all about which is something that's given me great joy for all of my life and I absolutely you know it's Central football to me in terms of that focus on that release but it is a com it's it allows me space to get away from everything else that is the job and I think that's really important it's it's again why I I would now say making time for my family which sounds so such an odd thing in a way to say is really important actually having that space it's not a sign of weakness to say I want to spend time with my family it's a sign of strength and I think that's very because too many people um feel that as a badge of leadership they've got to shut out their family time or their football time whatever the equivalent of that might be that other it's a sign of weakness say actually do you know what I want to go watch football game actually disagree profoundly I haven't got time for that yeah but yeah because I'm such a good leader that I'm so busy that I don't have time to see my children but if there's one thing that comes out of this I really think it's important is that's for me that's so wrong that is not a badge of good leadership I would say it's uh it's not a strength now I don't wish to be try because you talk about something that's significant as your family but as somebody that described it you're often in absorbing mode what have you learned from your years of watching Arsenal an elite high performance teams that you actually think ah I can't translate that into my world there's a metaphor there that that lands quite well if I take the current Arsenal team which I think is fantastic I'm biased but I do think this is an incredible group of young players no I I you know people from who spot other teams would say this Arsenal team at the moment is really incredible what's incredible about them and why is that different what can we learn from that um for me it's um two things one there isn't a standout star um so when aubameyang played for Arsenal outstanding star everything everybody tried to let everything go through him now we've got a team where quite often you know we after the game we'll all get together again and the inevitable conversation well who was playing you know who was playing the game quite often it's quite hard to say and that is really good because the whole everybody's playing well in their positions and that's really instructive because you're not relying on one or two standout Stars you've got a genuinely strong Squad I also think that with arteta you've got an incredible leader um who has managed players in different ways to bring out the very so every player in the Arsenal score well it's probably playing better than I've ever seen them play before and better than they've played before that's quite an extraordinary thing to bring about um and you know if you take a particular example of jacquer who stormed off the pitch I was there I was with my boy and I said he won't play for Arsenal again and you know arteta brought him around and now you'd have him first on your team Sheet pretty well every week so that that incredible leadership probably going on you probably wish you hadn't asked me about Arsenal now for that so it's you know a genuine team um where everybody is doing better than they would probably do elsewhere or on their own and incredible leadership from our Twitter and taking people on the journey like when I now watch our sort of song at the beginning it feels like the Emirates is together doesn't it yeah and taking people on the journey is really really important the whole team needs to come on the journey with you they will only do that I think if they feel that they have contributed to it and this the thing I have about the you have to have your fingerprints you have to feel that you've influenced what's and this is that I'm vested in this the whole team is vested in this it's very important to me when I let the clown prosecution so it's very important to me in lab party that the team feel I'm I'm this I'm part of this and in order to be part of this you have to be properly respected and so um quite often I uh I hope this doesn't come wrong but I don't distinguish as to exactly where staff are in the ranking order within the organization um because if there's however many people in the room I'm genuinely interested in the views of everybody in the room um whatever role they might have mirrors the Arsenal team it's not a superstar culture it's a commitment culture yeah it's you know you're all just committing yeah and you know everybody will have a view and everybody should feel comfortable putting that view forward and and that's not just a sort of nice feely thing way to do leadership it's the way that people then say well I'm coming on this journey yeah um and um you know and these are genus I mean we get the labor party from where it landed in 2019 our worst results since 1935 into being a labor government that would be only a historic achievement but only because so many people have played a part in it we're going to move on to our quick five questions in a moment but I hope we finish I know before we finish I think there is one question that we have to ask you and I think the audience would want to be asked and the challenge here is for you as you have done very well actually for the last hour or so not to get political with your answers um we talk about taking people on the journey right you want the nation to go on a journey with you commit to their labor party vote you into power if they do that what kind of prime minister would be leading this country an inclusive determined prime minister who will look out for everyone in the country perfect that was a quick far question in many ways we should have kept that yeah but it only works for you I'm reminded because I just do it I've reminded like you used to comment before and it reminded me of what you I've no doubt it'll be one of your Heroes Tony Adams uh Teddy Adams yeah but it was you use that lovely quote once where he said you can either play for the name on the show whether it's about yourself you can play for the number on the shirt where I'll do what the team needs or you play for the badge on the shirt where it doesn't matter what my role is I'm contributing and I was reminded of it when you spoke about trying to think of a metaphor for you joining the labor party so it's not about the title it's not about me it's about the badge on the shirt yeah what I want to do are there any other Heroes that you've seen at Arsenal or in your life that oh sorry I'll rephrase the question is there anybody else that you would attribute as a hero that you often try and model yourself on or compare yourself against the honest answer that is no and we often get asked as politicians who's your hero and this the the truth is I haven't gone through my life sort of worshiping heroes or even identifying Heroes but there were people I respect I mean the trouble with football is obviously you go for the ones that Thierry Henry won a player you know bird Camp incredible I mean to watch bird Camp live was just special um if I was to pick out someone now to go to the question of leadership and again take on board I'm biased I'm an Arsenal fan through and through Etc but Odegaard is really interesting because when he first came to Arsenal a couple of seasons ago it was on alone at the time I thought there's a very good player but now has been my captain he's a transformed player he's absolutely transformed he wears the authority of being the captain on the pitch he's involved he's determined he's leading the fight back um and he's keeping the team together and he is making sure every game he goes around and thanks the fans at the end of the game and I've seen a different erdogard and I've seen leadership through it a girl this season in what I had two seasons ago just saw as a very technically brilliant a very very good player um but I've but by being given a leadership role he has I in my view sort of gained in Authority gained in determination and become a very very good on-field leader and that matters because you know the reason we're doing well this season amongst other reasons is that when it's you know to all or whatever at 90 minutes we've gone gone on to win the game you only do that with that special resilience that you get with leadership on the pitch very good right ready for the dreaded quickfire question that was a very quick fire answer was it first of all what are the three non-negotiable behaviors that you and the people around you would ideally buy into the first is um be there um you've got to be there this is a guttural thing for me just describing earlier um if if this is particularly obviously people close to me but you've got to be there all the rest of it is is has naught compared to being there and that that that just to translate that into leadership very briefly I know this is a quick fire but I felt this when I was leading Crown prosecution service certainly affiliate has lead a low party um as leader you get the plaudits so if the crown prosecution service did a fantastic job we've had some incredible prosecutions of major terrorist cases and sometimes there are sort of awards International awards for the way in which we've done the case there was one terrible plot to try and bring down a number of airplanes at the same time across the Atlantic which got thwarted and prosecuted and my job was to receive the award on behalf of the organization but that comes with the be there bit which is um when things go wrong you carry the can and you carry the can for the whole organization and you take responsibility you don't go casting around for other people so be there is a personal thing for me with friends and family which is the test isn't whether you're phoning every day but test is whether you're there when the chips are down and you really need to be there but there's a bit of leadership in that the second would be uh don't [ __ ] I can't stand [ __ ] agreed uh you know just uh does my head in and there's too much of it um around um and I suppose the third would be um respect you've got to respect everybody on the team I think that'd be my three non-negotiables what's your greatest strength and your biggest weakness strength I suppose is resilience and focus just being able to see what I'm trying to achieve and and go for it and not not be knocked off almost whatever you're trying to achieve in life there's many reasons why you're going to get knocked off course but you've got to be utterly focused um on it in terms of weakness I think the undershirting is weakness and I think the probably the time taken to really get to trust someone is a weakness certainly frustration there are probably many others but um I'd I'd say they were definitely weaknesses what is the thing that you feel people get wrong most often or misunderstand most about you some people think that the lack of sort of extrovert passion means that there isn't a massive deep passion to get things done and to get things changed um you know people say well I've heard so-and-so speak eloquently about this issue and they seem so passionate about it um and that is often true but what I my response to that is I've heard so many people speak passionately about a problem brilliantly about a problem but I'm passionate about solving it I don't want to keep describing the same problem over and over again I know what the problem is the passion I've got is I need to change I need to solve that and that's the sort of inner determined passion that isn't always carried in the same way as the sort of articulate expression of what the problem is and I think some people feel that because um I'm not you know passionately describing the problem but somehow there isn't that inner passion to fix the fundamentals and they're totally totally wrong about that and I think anybody who works with me knows that um and I think that's what Angelina was trying to get at when she was saying what she said about oversharing and undershirting if you could go back to one moment of your life what would it be and why I think was probably touched on it would probably be to walk back in on my dad if I could take a second moment I'd one of my um one of the things that was a feature of my mum being very ill towards the end of her life when she couldn't speak and couldn't really move was that our children never got to know her so if somehow I could take them back to see your version of her when she was at her best I'd love to do that because they never really knew her this was not her fault or theirs they were just young and she couldn't speak at that stage she could feed herself or anything and so all they knew was somebody who was you know very unable to do unable to do things and I would love them to have known what she was really like which is amazingly courageous determined funny warm mum what was her name Joe she sounds amazing um if I could yeah I could just take her back take them back so they could meet my mum um at her best or you know would be an amazingly uplifting moment and give them something that in a sense they don't really have now very nice we have a high performance book club with many members they love discussing books that have changed the game for them and they love recommendations so if we were to ask you in the high performance Spirit one book to recommend to our book club what would you like them to read and why um I don't know the name of this book but there was one book I was really taken by which was a book about high performing Sports people I will remember this and it was it was when they were born and it was um this analysis that showed that very many um Top Flight footballers were born in the six months after um September sports team by David I think there's another version but it was about why is it that most top class footballers Top Flight footballers were born in the sort of three or six months after September that's right yeah the Arts are all about how quickly your brain develops physically you developed and then how you're pulled on through because um you're by the age of six or eight better than your classmates because you're slightly bigger you're stronger you're thinking a little bit more quickly than at that stage someone who's the best part of a year behind you and then fascinatingly in this book was the version of that for America where the school year is different and the basketball players and and it was a real the Insight was not so much you know within the first you know if you're nearly a year older than those around you when you're six or seven you are probably going to be a bit more yes but it was also the fact that then that what that leads to is the pulling out the helping the extra skills the you know pushing forward and so that then sort of snowballs into something and so there's a version of that in sport and also in life yeah as to understanding how these things sort of feed off each other I suppose I found absolutely fascinating yeah another one you mean it was a Gladwell book yeah she had it first time yeah outline not outliers Outlaws I think it is yeah yeah that was it yeah it was a great book outliers by Malcolm Gladwell right that's that's it yeah that's the book very good okay um are we asking the day in the life question yeah yeah we could do that yeah yeah so we have uh our plus listeners came and what we would be really interested to hear about is what's a typical day in your life like the answer is there isn't there aren't that many typical days because they change a lot but they if they were to they split in two parts really Monday Tuesday Wednesday is normally in and around Parliament the rest of the week and weekend is away from parliament in different parts of the country so they it falls into different parts like that um and it can it can really vary um but um you know if I'm on the road say the second half of the week it'll often be up very early to do a media round which are sort of doing four five six interviews early on um possibly doing so if we take next week um on Thursday I'll be doing a media round in the morning I'll then be up on stage giving a speech um then dealing with more media then we've got meetings following on from that and then going to a different part of the country to prepare to do a version of the same the next day so there's the sort of constant movement um on a parliament day it's into Parliament um meetings media Shadow cabinet I mean it's just back-to-back meetings nearly all the time um it's got an aversion to meetings like how how do you stay fresh in them that you can go in there and achieve your objective without getting jaded or frustrated I think because each meeting's different different group of people but it's what are you trying to achieve in this meeting and not having a meeting for the sake of it right right what are we actually achieving here and what do we need to get out of this meeting um and not having too much around the edges of that is really really um important um very important to me if it's possible to do it is to see my kids in the morning or the evening so that'll be the highlight um and uh and you know and the usual Brilliance of of that you know so uh our old our boy is 14 and a half but our girl is 12 and just just two or three brilliant vignette support that because this is such a leveler it's such a good thing to be brought completely Down to Earth by your children um and so our boy will come down the stairs shortly after seven most mornings with the about halfway down the stairs all right Dad um our girl will come down she has got brilliant um sort of put Downs for me so um this was a couple of years ago now she asked me in the morning you know what time you're home tonight Daddy and I said I'll be late what are you doing I'm doing a fundraising dinner and what's that oh it's a dinner where people pay to hear someone speak who's speaking I can see me why would anyone pay to hear you speak this is incredible it was like it was a slow motion now she would do it as a as a tease but then it was the sort of incredulous question of uh whatever it was eight or Daniel keep your feet on the ground well and then the other one was the um last year I was on The Spectator parliamentarian of the Year award which is really um great and yes a frame and sort of took it home and our boy was on the city watching television as I arrived home about sort of 9 9 30 and I showed him and he just handed it back to me but if I can try and describe this almost without taking his eyes off the Telly saying how did you blag that then and it just it's so good to be you know reduced to Dad as you walk through the door it's fantastically important absolutely um final question Kia is really your last message to leave people with something ringing in their ears your your Golden Rule if you like to living a high performance life if you have that feeling in the back of your mind that somehow the thing you want to do or achieve is not for you knock that thought out of your mind I say this to school children a lot because I think one of the biggest inhibitors are the biggest things that holds back aspiration is that thing that somehow says to some young people as it did to me that that thing that you you know might want to do isn't really for someone like you get that out of your mind but once that's out of your mind you can go a long way brilliant thank you so much for the last hour and a bit I think if nothing else we've proven Angela wrong now you're no longer you're no longer an undershare that that was a you know an Insight that I certainly have never seen before to you and the way you think and the way you've lived and the experiences you've had and people can't vote for someone that they don't know so I think this opportunity for people to get to know you is um is just really valuable for for the people of the country so thank you very much for the time thank you both very much thank you thank you hey guys it's Jake here listen before you go please do me just one favor hit subscribe it makes such a difference to us the more subscribers we get then the bigger the channel becomes the bigger the channel becomes the bigger the names we can attract and the more impact we can have for you so thanks for watching and please subscribe right now

Channel: High Performance

Views: 43,013

Keywords: Podcast, The High Performance Podcast, Keir starmer, labour party leader, leader of the opposition, politics, keir starmer podcast, keir starmer background, keir starmer interview

Id: X0VcLz6cEEw

Length: 84min 20sec (5060 seconds)

Published: Mon Mar 27 2023