Alastair Campbell in Conversation: Politics, the People and the Press

good evening I'm Julian and I'm head of Social Sciences here at the British Library and I'm co-creator of our brand new exhibition propaganda power and persuasion and what better way could there be to open our season with this conversation between Alastair Campbell and Steve Richards I'm not going to introduce Alliston or the event in details Steve will do that but we did interview Alastair for the exhibition and he features in it as one of our Talking Heads and I think in the middle of a sort of fascinating session we had with him it was salutary to be reminded that when he left Downing Street in 2003 social media channels such as Twitter were but a gleam in some techies I hadn't been invented yet and now there are over 500 million users worldwide so that's a massive change in that 10-year period I'm going to introduce Steve and he's been the independence chief political columnist for about 13 years now also political editor of the new state Statesman worked for the BBC and various other political roles political columnist roles political commentator roles and but importantly he's giving I'm giving him a plug now he's starring in his own one-man show called rock and roll politics which runs from the 2nd to the 6th of July and that's at the Soho Theatre and that's going to be a unique behind-the-scenes it says on the leaflet behind the scenes guide some modern politics and media I'm gonna hand over to Steve get us underway thank you so much well welcome to the session what I thought I'd do in terms of structuring our conversation is look at how you approached messaging propaganda whatever we're going to call it in the build-up to power labor in peacetime labor in war and some reflections on the modern media since you stopped being press secretary and then we'll open it up to all of you before we begin as this is linked to an exhibition on propaganda the definition we just heard there I thought was a very fair one within that definition where Tony Blair asked you to be his press secretary in the summer of 94 persuaded you actually because you didn't you had doubts about it did you think right I am becoming a propagandist as defined there her I think in political terms I already was right because when I was a journalist what I think if I what is a fantastic exhibition you and I would talk about this all the way I think the one thing that maybe is missing is the fact that actually I think in modern British politics the real propagandists are in the media and that has made political life much much more difficult I actually as a Daily Mirror particular deter I saw myself as a an active supporter of the Labour Party who used my journalism to try to help the Labour Party right now I know that was quite rare for a journalist to admit that but actually a lot of journalists are forced to think in those terms by dint of the paper that they work for I think in terms of how I saw my role when I then as it were jumped to the other side of the fence I did see my role as being I remember all colleague of yours and friend of mine and friend both of ours Don McIntyre on the independent when I got the job I remember me saying cause it's going good for me because I'm one of the few journalists you get on with and and I said Don you've just got to understand I no longer am a journalist and I no longer see myself as a journalist I exist now totally to help the Labour Party get elected and that is how I saw my job now I don't that's propaganda or not but certainly for so for example you take something like Tony's big strategic pitch if you like was new labour we had to make new labour real to the public so that people who hadn't voted for us before would vote for us so that we would then get into power that's how I I thought 24 hours a day yeah yeah what well let's take that as a very interesting starting point the the invention in verticals of new labor now I know you would argue and it's unquestionably the case it was backed by painstaking work on policy and anyone who reads your Diaries or any of the others that's the case but new labor was partly a I'm not saying necessarily a pejorative way a propaganda tool wasn't it I mean it was basically saying this old Labor Party that lost elections is being consigned to the Past and so was that your idea new labor was it I don't know partly a marketing device a propaganda device I mean what was clear to me from the moment that Toni became leader the lobe party and indeed before that was that he believed that we were losing election after election after election because we were not facing up to change it was happening around us in the modern world and that we were becoming too tribal we were sort of in a sense just sort of talking to ourselves as opposed to understanding that most people are not inside the political bubble and they're looking for a different sort of dialogue with their political particular leaders if you like and so he was at unashamedly a moderniser he was right out at the outer edge of modernization if you like now he said in his own book that in a sense it was I was the person who as it were wrote new labor New Britain as our strategic framework but I think the idea of new labor was kind of obvious from what he was talking about what he wanted to do for the party but you do need labels yeah you need labels as usual in in your eyes new labor new Brit yeah right that's that right okay and from that point if we build up to the ninety seven landslide win it's very hard in opposition to distinguish between policymaking and projection because you can't implement any policies so I remember you always say we'll hold on a second my power very flattering to you is exaggerated in the sense that it's Blair Brown and others so doing the policy stuff on the whole but you I know were very determined understandably to neutralize the Sun and the hopefully in your terms the other hostile papers looking back it must have had some impact on policy how radical Quotes left-of-center you would dare to be when you're wanting to get the son on board the only thing I say about that is that I completely understand where you'd say that and as far as we get that relationship gets sort of trotted out as usually about the VAT Tony Blair quotes flew halfway around the world to pay homage to Murdoch in the Hayman Island if you go back and read the speech it was as clear an exposition of the new labor pitch as you'd ever get including really challenging their euro skepticism so I think Europe is the example that I would look to to did we as it were tailor our policy and our politics to suit the Murdoch agenda to get the backing of the son and I don't think we did I think what we did do was make sure that knew that the essence of New Labour which was the idea that you you just you didn't just bang on about fairness and better public services but you had to have a an understanding of the importance of economic efficiency there was certain part of the some parts of the Thatcher agenda which you accepted that that in a sense was what signaled to them that this change was real but my concern and Tony's concerned the whole time was less about the newspapers it's about the public but in opposition this is where you're absolutely right about the limitations of opposition in opposition all you've got is the media you can't actually put up people's taxes or cut them you can't build roads you can't have a health policy that sees nurses and doctors doing operations only the government can that can have that an opposition can only communicate what it is saying and let's be honest that what percentage of the public will actually meet a politician in the course of a campaign very very small it's through the media that you get your message and you and I talked about this a lot in Britain even though television is this probably the single most important medium the reality reality is in our country still the big newspaper groups tend to set the agenda for the news before the television the radio it's changing because of social media but it's still the case do you think I mean there's no doubt at all on those terms you were incredibly successful and just before we leave the opposition period where you famously got the endorsement of the Sun and other newspapers just on a personal thing because if you read the Diaries they're an extraordinary vivid account of many different things about what happened during that period but it was partly an account of your relationship with newspapers and by the end we'll come to that in a minute you really couldn't bear them at the point when you were getting this good press 97 did you sort of quite like them I mean is it much is it or did you already basically think these people are a bunch of bastards out to undermine the Labour Party but they're being quite nice to us so I'll be quite nice they're more or did you in others when they're being nice to you did you actually quite like them well back then is it this is this is one of the we generally have a very right-wing press in this country and the fact is that so at the moment for example I mean I would argue that David Cameron in opposition got a way way way easier ID than we did in opposition now it is true that in 1997 the start of the election the Sun came out for us but just understand they did that because they knew we were going to win they did not do that out of any conviction and so I thought I say in the diaries that I sort of I think I did resent that we even had to go through all this nonsense that I went through that it shouldn't they shouldn't have the now as I said it Leverson I think we should have done more about their power yeah Tony for reasons I completely understand felt that with all the other stuff that we were doing and given that most of the media thought we did get a fair press and most of the public probably thought we got a fair press that actually to have thrown in let's change the relationship with the media bringing new regulations so forth it just it wasn't realistic but I I disliked some of them it definitely got worse as time went on because I felt the culture and so much of which was shown at Leverson and so much more of which is being shown since Levison where they're kind of you know continuing to live this sort of niall where they will conduct an opinion poll saying putting loaded questions you know do you believe that the Prime Minister should decide what the headline is tomorrow or surprise surprise 95% of people say no and they put that as a poll and somebody does a reasonable poll that says do you think Leverson produce a reasonable report which ought now to be implemented seventy-five percent say yes and it doesn't make a line in any single newspaper that's what I mean about the power of propaganda politicians actually I yes they have a lot of power they do have a lot of power but I think that when I see particularly now you see the g8 you see Obama and Merkel and all on camera and the Chinese and they're all sitting there and they're always described as the eight most powerful people in the world they don't feel it they don't feel it and a lot of them is because they're surrounded by this kind of propagate these forces of propaganda against them by their respective media systems less so the Chinese ask do you think do you think given that success up to 97 I I know you resented having to do it you did it and got it and you got those murdoch papers on the sun specifically on board and so on i mean a way you're the least well equipped to answer this question but do you think Tony Blair became too dependent on you he saw that the success you had in getting the message across to in inverted commas hostile newspapers and suddenly he had power when policy became more important but you the diaries are very clear you're with him all the time which is you know it incredibly flattering right so you're the wrong person to ask but retrospectively do you think here was here huge landslide majorities power to make policy it was you he listened to more than say I don't know some policy maker with experience of reshaping the economy or whatever I don't I think what Tony did very successfully was build a really really good team around him now I was the guy who was in the front line with the media every day and I think one of the reasons I got built up as much as I did I'm not denying that I wasn't you know forceful interesting personality for them to write about but but one of the reasons that that was the case because they saw me twice a day they saw me more than these other people and actually you are a fairly rare exception most political journalists are actually not interested in policy they are they're interested in the personality and who's up who's down and where's the net scandal coming along and you know god we really have to write about the health service and so I think I think I got built up I'm not and maybe I could have handled it differently I don't know but I think Tony you see Tony wouldn't have listened to me on the reshaping of the economy he would have listened to Gordon he would have called in outside advisors but the team around Tina Jonathan Powell Sally Morgan knew I saw earlier today Peter Heim and David Miliband Charlie Fortner Derry Irvin the Tonys kind of that inner team it was a collection of people who were use for different things well I think he used me for most wasn't actually the media management side although I could do that it was it was having a strategic mind and seeing how all this stuff could fit together and it was also being absolutely totally blunt with him because you know a lot of politicians when they get to a certain level they lose that and I saw I saw the way that people talk to Tony differently after he became prime minister and myself Johnson and Sally etc we just we would determine not to yeah so I think that was a different function I was I wasn't I am NOT a policy expert if you would say to me right what should I can answer the question what I think we should do about the National Service but I certainly wouldn't recommend putting me in charge of it rather than Alan Milburn or John Reid or yeah Alan Johnson or whatever we moving on I think one thing that did come across in your Diaries I think you've said it actually elsewhere most of the Diaries by the way that they're all on sale I so it's fantastically rich reading but the sod that was spontaneous I wasn't it was not propaganda I wasn't planning to say that I think you say in the diaries or you've read it in an interview that early on in government you carried on with the art of opposition yeah now this is presumably does relate to the theme we're talking about you were still all very focused on the message because you'd done it for the last three years or whatever in opposition yeah and I said you know what I think we ended up being punished for that the whole way through yeah I think for the first you got to member we've been out of power for a long time we've got a landslide victory that was bigger than any of us are predicted I can remember on the election night being up in Sedgefield with Tony and we arrived the counter there was a TV on and there were seats fall into us that we hadn't even campaigned in they'd not even been on the list of target C's they were Pete their MPs being elected novice a to Tony who's that and it was so so that was but was a we go after weeks without proper sleep and thousands of miles on the road and Tony goes down to see the Queen then you're inside Downing Street he's suddenly been told how to use a nuclear weapon it's like a pretty steep learning curve and meanwhile I'm sort of running this communications machine having gone from a very very small tightly knit team suddenly there are thousands of these people all over the government and I I think we were absolutely determined to keep that sense of a message discipline focus and all the rest of it and I think that it meant that we were a little bit slow to get into the different mindset that you need in government the mindset you need in government is not about the fighting day today you have to do that you have to be I was the loving to debrief the press every day and I was telling him to make the arguments and the rest of it but much much more important was right here's the key objective you're setting this is what you do in a year this is what you do three years this is what you want to do over Parliament now I think eventually we got there but funny laugh Tony said his own brother he felt that by the time he left he was at his least popular but his most effective when he started it was his most popular but maybe his least effective and that's just and I think Cameron you know I think he is still in that I think he's still more about the communication than ears about the substance I know that people accuse that as of that but I think they do so because of that first six months yeah and I think the other reason if I can be absolutely Frank is I think they do so because of Gordon's operation and particularly the way that Charlie we not operated I think we paid a heavy price for the fact that all that triple counting and renouncing and and all that stuff we paid a long-term price for that yeah but that's I mean this word spin almost haunted and came to torment you all didn't it even when actual minutely detailed policy was being announced I would be in news meetings at the BBC or you know newspaper all spent all spit even when it was so obviously not now but I don't know what this is just like propaganda yeah oh absolutely that's why I'm asking it it's all problems being developed and negative connotation yeah I mean dude sort of put the history and the case and actually propaganda is it is the propagation of information to persuade that's what it is spin is it's a deliberative pejorative word say that anything that anybody in public life communicates they're not actually saying what they think they're trying to sell you something that isn't real that's the sort of now this is what I mean about the media being the real spin doctors because they agenda is driving this the whole time and I'll give you an example of how it works I can remember in the run-up to the Hutton Inquiry when I'd made a decision once the inquiry was caught I just wasn't going to engage with the media at all and I just kind of you know you may remember I saw was filmed out running every day and I never spoke and I just got on to my business and my view one night on Saturday I was at home with my son's watching a football match and the phone went and I answered the phone and it was some it was one of the reporters he was outside the house TV reporter not you and and I had a very very brief chat in which I said absolutely nothing I know how to talk and say nothing okay I said absolutely nothing Oh football finished the news came on and then there's this report about the build-up to the Hutton Inquiry and there's they go to the reporter outside my house who says and the spin behind me tonight is yeah right now what I done he'd phoned me without me wanting to phone me it asked me a question I gave him a totally waffling mean AB devoid of meaning response said goodbye watch the football and then the spin is now I always saw my job as being in the business of strategic communication strategic communication is the communication of an idea new labor or a policy whatever they might be over time it's never done in the moment because most people aren't listening in the moment even the Barack Obama Barack Obama announces bin Laden's dead right that's a really big moment what proportion of the world actually saw him announce that live not many what proportion knew about it by the end of the day pretty much everybody now very very few events like that most politicians remember this I think it was Philip Gould who had this line about you know but most of the time we're playing in an empty stadium most people aren't listening they're going about their business there they're not watching television they're taking their kids to school we're taking the mumtaz mall they're going to work whatever the communicator has to understand that which is why you keep have to communicate in the same things again and again and again and again and the the media they are listening all the time and we one of the most infuriating things for a politician now let's say David Cameron makes a speech tomorrow let's say it's a rare Cameron speech and he's got something substantial to say that was spent let's say he's good he's good announcement to make yeah now point one he will get more coverage on the television on the radio if they brief it in advance to the newspapers we used to get confused all the time why are you giving this stuff to the newspapers so we stopped doing it you know what happened lots of covered the broadcasters thought well this can't be serious because it's not in the papers there's this weird relationship they have they until they see in the papers to think what this can't be can't be important so then what happens is the next day they sort of catch up with it so then the speech will come along let's say is doing the speech in the morning so that stay program which lots of the sort of chattering classes listen to they'll have a discussion of that and then you'll do the speech and it will be live on Sky and BBC news won't BBC news channels not much watch by that many people then by lunchtime they might have three clips of this big speech of announcement by the evening the media are absolutely bored rigid with it so they'll have one clip and then I have Nick Robinson telling you what he meant and they might have Robert Peston telling you what he thinks that he meant and and so he goes on and the politicians voice is completely totally lost and that's a difficult that's and the the propaganda in that is not the politicians that's my point yeah and there's nothing I'm not you know that Nick Robertson lot better they're doing their job in this totally change media landscape but it's made it much much harder for the for the politician to get a point over time yeah I once remember not Labor actually was at the BBC seeing a running order for the six o'clock news there was a Lib Dem conference when Ashton was leader and the running order was Ashdown speech two minutes John sergeant two-way five minutes that kind of you know slightly weird dynamic that there are times aren't that in this crazy relationship between media and politics where the the person in your role has some really tough decisions to me I mean one of the running themes through your Diaries obviously is the Blair Brown relationship and in a most recent volume you've got people like tesage out coming up to you and saying the Chancellor's bloody bonkers you know as you kind of and yet clearly that has to be suppressed as a story I mean the journalist wrote about it non-stop but presumably there was no formula where you could say look yeah there is this problem because the government would then implode so there are moments when you do have to to use a definition which when this exhibition was pegged on the Today programme the other person who spoke said one definition of propaganda is to mislead and presumably at times you did have to well one of the quotes over there Richard Crossman this idea that spin started with me and Peter Mandelson's Richard Crossman was a propaganda you might want to tell the truth but often you can't tell the trees and therefore you you end up misleading now let's just take the Gordon - Tony Gordon thing but first we got to remember the the relationship between the Chancellor the Prime Minister the Chancellor is kind of fundamental in in any government and what's more it can move markets you've got to be a little bit careful now where it was really difficult being the prime minister spokesman was my knowledge that you guys who was sitting at the briefings you were being fed this stuff you were being told that Gordon thought this and and that this had been this had happened and this shouting match had happened now I couldn't I couldn't sit there and say no that did not happen I did have to say something different and what I was so for example if somebody came in and said is it true that Gordon is trying to block Tony from spending more on the Health Service for example now the straightforward honest answer at that time would have been yes okay the answer I would have given was well we've got a spending review going on we've got a budget coming on coming up and the government is all working together to make sure we come to the right decisions about dad da-da-da-da-da and if you remember what happened on that was Tony went on frost and just announced we were doing it and as the dials record Gordon went yeah yeah now and then that was like so in situations or the other thing which you will have seen me do hundreds of times will be newspaper leads on x and y have had big fallout or whatever it might be and I'll get asked about it I'll say like I'm just not going to get into the tittle-tattle I'm not going to get into the trivia I'm going to focus on this that's happening today because it's more important and more serious and they would sort of know that is what is called a non-denial denial and therefore they would feel justified to go and write the story because you can't you can't you can't actually lie you cannot if you do you finished your absolutely finished and that's why you know I I used to put myself through the same pressures for my briefings as Tony put himself through for Prime Minister's Questions one of the reason I used to run the system really really hard is I wanted to be able to answer any question now to answer it if you like in a qualified way yeah you do need to know the truth and you need to need to know the whole truth some of the worst messes we ended up with well when we were as the spokesmen were put in positions where we said things which turned out not to be true Peter Mandelson says a second resignation yeah the Bristol flats now if you get a situation like that and they were the worst to deal with when it was actually not about policy it wasn't about anything that was fundamentally important it was about Charice tony injuries kids and where they were living at university okay that's the sort of story the papers love maybe the public do I don't know but the papers certainly loved that sort of story and we have to deal with it where can we go to get the facts about that you have to go and ask the people and and and if if you if you get told things that turn out not to be true then you all hell breaks loose as it did yeah talk it all hell breaking loose Iraq and then we'll look at the modern media and then open it up with Iraq when Tony Blair decided whenever that was to back President Bush in America did you then think right I'm now the equivalent and him actually of a lawyer we've got a night of a lawyer with a case we've got to convince the Labour Party win the House of Commons hopefully win over the public we have just got to find every ounce of material to back that case because if we don't win over the Labor Party the House of Commons the media the public we're stuck because my leader wants to go with him and was that the mindset from that moment on and can you see in retrospect how that mindset led to some of the difficulties that arose with say using the intelligence and so on no I don't buy that I'll tell you why because I think the the last volume of the diary starts on 9/11 yeah and there's no damn this phrase that kept being used at the Chilkoot inquiry the calculus of threat changed it did because I think things that people were prepared to tolerate not just our government like governments around the world is something they weren't going to tolerate and the thing about if you read if you read not just the Diaries but all of the emails and the memos that were published in the Hutton Inquiry and I think it's very very hard to make the case that this was a government that was sort of you know rooting around trying to find the material that would make a false case to Paula which in the end is what we were accused and not a false case but you know anything I'm welcome like nuanced intelligence well you know that's not if you can make cases this is all about the September 2002 dossier and if you go if you can read it and if you go to look at the coverage at the time it was I can remember mean the guy Gilligan who ended up causing the whole sort of the subsequent controversy that I do today V Kelly's death and then that an inquiry on the day because at the time it suited him to say this on the day that we published the dossier so there's nothing new and this is nothing we don't know this is the guy who later said that this was what made the case for war Adam Bolton who was that video showed he and I had our ups and downs from time to time I can remember the city he had very much I'm not criticizing this because I think it was quite a dry document it wasn't this sort of you know it's been reinterpreted in the light of what's happened I mean if you read it I think it was careful and cautious and what is true is that Tony wanted to persuade the Labour Party and the pub and Parliament and the public that is absolutely true but I can remember the day of Amalur at the Iraq March the the war the march against the war come under the date but you know you just have to look out the window to see what that was like how many people were against it now if you're a prime minister who is preparing to stand out the next election people who said he didn't listen he did listen and it was it was quite a loud noise coming in his direction but ultimately he was in a position he particularly but also that the government be here in particular of having to make a decision and in the end that was that was what it was about is I mean the controversy about Iraq to my mind it's not about dossier it's not about who said what to whom it's actually about a decision that a lot of people disagreed with and will disagree with yeah well into the future and so I don't I don't accept the premise of your question I totally said why it's put because that is how this debate debate is develop but it's not how it felt at the time I was at the time you know let's move on to look at the way the media has changed as you left soon after that particular drama and so you have your period which if you read the diaries I mean just relentless non-stop 24/7 as the cliche goes well since then there's Twitter I don't think you were there for blogs were you know the idea or Nick ascender who used to run the spray worked with John release press and then he was one of the first people to work for BBC online I can't on what year this was but he came to see me and he said I'm shifting to do this kind of online stuff and was that oh it's kind of Internet him sir and and he said you really ought to start thinking about this because this is not going to be the next big thing and earlier fair enough okay and and I can remember thinking you know you know it's just I don't I didn't even understand what it was and so by the time I I mean one of the kind of you know about the Hutton Inquiry one of the things that came out and had encouraged people's thought was really weird was some kind of conspiracy in this is that there were no emails from me that's because I never said email I used to my secretaries to print out everything and I'd scribble on the top and she so even email I caught up with it this page and it's like it's like when Tony when he left I've told this story about his first text message but Tony - Tony didn't even have a mobile phone which when he came to phone hacking was good news so when he when he left in 2007 and he has to sort of rejoin the real world by very first text message probe just said this oh that was it they didn't other would cave through so this is amazing and the race one said you can send words at everything so the world had moved on yeah yeah yeah I actually I really like social media and I don't think the politicians have anything to fear from social media - no I don't but I think our politicians are very very slow to catch up with this I was interested over the exhibition that the the most retweeted tweet in history was that four more years a bomber now actually other than that was a very I'm really surprised that that was I don't there's any political power in that because actually it's a single fact and it's like the Obama bin Laden announcement once you know it you know it yeah so that was in a sense about a mood but I'll tell you if you if you are a politician and you say something or you catch the moment with something and it is then retweeted and retweeted and retweeted and retweeted and retweeted and it's happening there and now you're taking away a lot of power from these newspapers yes why they hate it yeah so if you were say Ed Miliband's press secretary now what do you think why was that what would you be let's take you Kip first of all yeah what would you be telling him in terms of messaging to respond to you Kip or would you be saying to him well this is pretty good for you it it's going to split the Tory party I like the SDP did with labor keep off you kick you know let's just let them have that little battle and we'll pick up seats because of the split vote or would you be saying right we've got to develop messages here to sort this out well I mean I do see it and I talk to Ed and the thing the thing is I wouldn't look at it in those terms I think that he I think Cameron has made a terrible mistake strategically with you get on with Europe Cameron doesn't want Brenda Lee the European and he's right not on to Britain not only the European he's got a political problem and he's created a process over which he's losing control and that is I think really really dangerous for him I think we read the the thing that is that enough I read a piece in The Guardian today where they were talking about this other policy development process ultimately for all that we are talking about communication it is totally about policy it's all about what policies we bring forward between now in the election and how the debate develops around them with the public in a really difficult period difficult economically difficult politically because politicians aren't popular difficult because you know people feel let down by the banks and they feel let down by you know most of the modern the big institutions but it ultimately will be about about policies I would be saying all the time look I understand why you're holding your fire I understand why you're not bringing stuff forward but ultimately that is what is going to decide at the moment Labour's lead is very much about the fact that the government are not thought to be terribly competent and then not Ana doing quite a lot of things that said they wouldn't and the country's not going doesn't feel very good it's not going in a very good duration that's fine it is not enough ultimately it is about the public saying okay this is back to what what has said about 94 to 97 you can spend all your time you know one of the reasons we got a reputation for being sort of you know the whole new labor control free thing is because anyway if somebody is if you know people get a vote for you that's fine and great they're there but to go from opposition to power you have to have people who haven't voted for you before and often they're people who don't think about politics don't care about politics but you you're not going to get them to come and vote for you simply by the other lot being not up to much if the leather if for that that is what will fuel the UK up phenomenal that's what fueled the SDP during the period when they were there and I think if camera treated you kept in the same way as the major parties used to treat the SDP in other words they're going to get big and bold during the other they going to win by elections or fine let them ultimately if you start handing pandering to their argument rather than taking them on defeating their arguments they can end up more power no more power not less on it and so I think Cameron's going to reap a whirlwind on this and what about I mean images is a very obviously part of the theme of this exhibition I've got some doubts about the image of Ed Miliband on the soapbox what what do you think of batters and I think it's really nothing is fine yeah it to it what depends back to the point about strategic communication being the communication of ideas over time it's about what he says over time and the image stuff will get analyzed to an nth degree so every time it because of John Major and BT Neil Kinnock and P if it wasn't down to a soapbox it was down to what happened in the five years prior to that and so it all depends on you know that I'm not saying that stuff's not important you know I mean I'm the guy who when we had the 97 election campaign we had 3 campaign buses and I was the guy who I wanted the slogans to match up so that if anybody saw the 3 buses in the convoy it made sense okay I'm not saying it's irrelevant but it's not that important what is important is what is what are you saying over time what are the key messages and what are the policies that drive that and that that's in the end why look images are really really really important one of the one of the best things about the exhibition I think is the is the kind of power and the very the variety you can see sort of as history has taken its course of how things have changed but ultimately in all of those powerful communicators it's down to what they say in the end and just finally they will open it up there are times and this must be very complicated for you when you have to project a message which you yourself are not entirely happy with famously with you I think it was education wasn't it you disagree with tony blair on i think it's basically his entire we're not entire but quite a lot of his reforms in terms of schools and you were the one who had to put the case for them i mean that must be really difficult and and challenging and it is difficult challenging and actually on most policy stuff I didn't have a problem I'll tell when I find it I don't know I think it was probably bit 2000 2001 when I finally realized he was absolutely pointless me sitting at briefing and saying I had the utmost respect for Claire short but on policy stuff it was it was difficult it could be difficult yeah but in the end this is back to the point about I know people don't like to believe this but actually the power was his yeah if I'd have gone out and said no I'm not I'm not very good at hiding what I think so for example I give you another example the whole lib Lab thing Tony was very keen on this Libya and you were a skeptic I was a little bit skeptical knew that yeah and so I would have to go a little bit over the top in terms of you know communicating this because the ultimate people do read other people you know the part of the exhibitions about the Falklands and you have that guy McDonald who was the about the you know deserve the same service like it was like sort of speaking clock and now that that for that time was thought to be the right thing but let's be absolutely Frank in the modern television age the public are not going to listen to that that thought that sort of voice they're just going to channel hope and their over to the next thing so the communicator has to communicate a sense of conviction and authenticity even if the audience is a very sophisticated group of political journalists so they could sense if I didn't believe it and some you know 95% of the times I had no trouble at all it when he got really difficult was well actually when it was it was more the personal and political stuff right that was when it got difficult yeah I can well imagine well let's we've covered modern media pre 97 97 onwards we can now open out for some questions so the lights are going to go on a bit so I can see and I think there will be a microphone coming weren't there so if you could put your hand I can see a hand there if you'd like to start and if you say your name because I think will be quite a few questions keep it as short as possible thank you my name is James and I have a question about the speed of communications because with the age of medium with a 1 being able to be a publisher on Twitter or on a blog and then communications are speeding up do you think that because of that messages had become more sensational in order to get the pick up particularly from the mainstream media where there is actually still a very limited space and lots of people are served luring for it the reason why I think social media is good for the politicians is because there's no if you like the control over the agenda is dissipating the the public can have a much bigger say in what is now genuinely newsworthy one of the things I look out and Twitter sort of I don't I got in Twitter I don't know five or six times a day just have a quick look and I are dipping it out and I took here I've tweeted a few pictures in the exhibition because dude told me to and said is fantastic and all that but I like to look at what's trending now if you're watching Manchester united against Chelsea on Scott live on Sky 7 out of 10 top 10 trending talker topics are going to be from that okay so Park that when it's just like a big sporting event that's going on if you are looking at a massive event like you know Margaret Thatcher's death and that's going to sort of drive huge traffic but what I find really interesting is seeing those occasions and they you know they happen a lot where stories that are not getting up picked up much in the mainstream media aren't on the news are suddenly being trending on to trending on Twitter and then what I know follows from that is that journalists see that as well and then they sort of think actually you know that we should be doing more about this and then you'll turn on the news the next evening and there's a report about it and I and I think that's an interesting now for the politician who's got a strategy who's got a strategic message then it's great because you can just you can just keep saying new things that are applied to your core message actually Obama does this really well he did it really well journey during the election campaign as well I think I think at the very very few British politicians I think if yet got the hang of Twitter it's interesting that if it's still the case but I think the two most followed people in British policies on Twitter and me and John Prescott really now I think it's fair to say we're both a couple of has-beens so especially him please somebody tweet us you get a response I know you have you use alright but I think no Boris might be I don't know but he is you know it's like it's like the the if you think about you go through the cabinet now look the cabinet they're really important people they are and you know they're they matter they make decisions that affect all of us and yet they're not that they're not engaging in a way that's making people think actually it's worth listen to what they say bursty will say I'm pretty on message I'm pretty on message I mean you won't find me you won't find me criticizing Ed Miliband he played balls there's a bit as a bit in the Diaries no I think it's about the voice I can remember there's this thing about message control I can remember about a year after I left there's about 2004 I was driving up the MCC Burnley I spent a lot of my time doing that and somebody I won't say here was but a member of the government came on the radio and did this interview and I promise it was so bad I almost crashed the car I was screaming at the radio because this person who shall be nameless she said the same thing eight times in answer to the same question she yeah how many shoes were this quite fun as if there were more than than there are now I'm being heckled by my daughter anyway I run into her about a month later and I said by the way I know this until you did and and I just I'd still a very frank well there should be you use told us make sure you get the point across and I said it's not the same thing as saying the same thing do you know you used to do this ginge did is brilliantly was John Reid John Reid and Jack Kelly you could breathe John Reid and Jack Cunningham five minutes before they went into the studio about quite a complicated situation and they'd go in and they'd speak but it was like they thought about it they understood that they had they thought about it they'd absorb the argument if you just put out somebody else's argument the probably pick him up a bit pick up another okay uh yeah I might be able to guess the answer but why is it that the reputation of politics in many democracies including this one and is such a depressingly low Abe I think isn't the honest I honestly don't know all of the answers I think if you look if you go back a bit this is why it's so how many people have been to see the exhibition okay but wasn't one of these quite interesting is just to see how things have changed either pressures I mean I'll just read this amazing book about Churchill's relationship with de Gaulle okay now if you read it there's lots of stuff in there which where they are saying things in public okay which were they subject to the level of scrutiny that politicians today are subject to they'd have been in real trouble but there was a sort of understanding though particularly in times of war war leaders could kind of go out there and frankly not just be canonical with the truth but propagandize to their heart's content and you could say that actually you look back at those periods think of some of the huge figures in our history shall being the most the most obvious I think people look at politicians now and because they see more of them television they are maybe less respectful you then say can throw in things like the controversy over Iraq or MPs expenses and so forth and I happen to think we have the least amongst the least corrupt politics in the world but that has defined our politicians in a certain way how many people here can name an MP who did not fiddle their expenses in any way whatsoever not many because hardly any of them got any publicity or any coverage but actually loads and loads and loads of them you look at their entry and it's get a zero or it's you know a few stamps so I think that is all that is all built up I think the other thing is that politician of the the the the work that the challenge to politics has become a lot harder because the the problems are much more interconnected now very very difficult for individual governments to kind of solve all of the problems that we face and but I think your point about democracy I mean I'm not arguing here for a sort of you know an end to democracy but I think we do as democracies have to face up to the fact that the non-democracies China and the you know those that are sort of pretend democracies Russia some some of the developed the developing democracies they have got massive inbuilt advantages against ours at the moment and that is that is something which I think the public have to face up to as well and I think this I mean look you you all being here tonight suggest that you've got an interest in politics let's be honest a lot of the British people take no interest in the world around them whatsoever other than there's a sort of place to whinge about what's going on and blame other people individuals have to take responsibility for politics as well now I would bring in all sorts of things I would definitely lower the voting age I would teach politics in school from a very very early age I was teach our teach Anna just as we teach sport as a positive so politics and public service should be treated as a positive as well and over a generation you might change things but at the moment I think it's a real worry about people think about and the sort of people are going into politics know what I mean by that is the sort of people who would not think about it because of what they know will happen to them that their family gets turned over that the there's no sort of I mean that you know that you don't go into politics to get rich that's for sure and so I think that a lot of people who might have thought about politics in that Churchill generation they wouldn't even given it a moment's thought now and I think we've got a we should worry about all areas dangerous um let's go over to this side yet the look we had the mic just there in the third row I'm currently studying for my GCSEs and in one of my English information and ideas lessons we studied a conservative poster and that made me think what do you think makes an effective piece of propaganda okay what was the poster um it was the I'll cut the deficit not the NHS poster oh well that's on our Weldon I see that is a really interesting because that was the that was the that was the one that became famous for being the called the airbrushed poster wasn't it David Cameron an appalling note wasn't airbrushed and it's something it's drawing about about Cameron he's in his forties but he really really does look like it doesn't shave isn't it's going to win I'm I said I'm just making an observation right it's just he looked and he's got no wrinkles at all he's kind of weird that poster so that poster I'll cut the NHS not the I'll cut the deficit not the NHS sorry I'm saying what he's done rather what he said but he that was a really really example of how things work because they launched that poster and I think it was the Daily Mirror who first used the word airbrushed okay and airbrushed just went round the sort of social media and it became a really really really big thing and if you want a really good laugh they're still going a thing somebody set up this website called my David Cameron where they you could post your own version of this airbrush picture and there were thousands and thousands of thousands of them and when I knew that that poster campaign was a total disaster for the Conservatives it was when there was a picture in The Times of a post that poster on display on a on a billboard in Guilford we should have thought that it's always fairly safe to be honest but anyway they've got the poster there somebody had gone up in the middle of the night you know because the strap line was we can't go on like this he said I'll cut the deficit not the NHS we can't go on like this and somebody had got up in the middle of the night and they painted Elvis Presley's hair on David Cameron and they added down the bottom I said we can't go on like this with suspicious minds and all I'm saying is that was better than the real poster my favorite poster that we ever did was the one I had in the film of this is what was so interesting about mrs. Thatcher's death and all this kind of eulogizing and all the rest of it 2001 election we basically won it by saying when we don't want to go back to that so we put Margaret Thatcher's hair on William Hague and said vote vote vote Labour on Thursday or they get back this is interesting isn't it how that was seen as a vote winner there absolutely in the build-up to the funeral she was seen as the magic waving of the wand that could get them votes against interesting let's go further back yeah further up on the right the guy in the jacket you'll come to him now yeah my name's Stephen green and don't you think it's rather interesting if you think of our place mall prime ministers possibly the man whose reputation is best of the test of time was claimed at there who as far as I can see couldn't care less about public relations and presentation yeah that is I mean there's a very famous story about him on the day that the election campaign started when he was walking down he went for a walk at lunch to at times reporter bumped into and said Oh couldn't believe his luck in bumping into the aptly on the day of the election campaign was called and he said is there anything you'd like to say to The Times about the forthcoming election and he said no and walked on now the first thing to remember is is the only one one elation the second thing is it was a totally to yaizu not to term sorry up your beer absolutely right to terms and but the other thing to say is it was these were totally different times but also Steve's fault about mrs. Thatcher is important because now she's a very very controversial figure and I think you know to be honest I think the kind of the center of gravity of the coverage just got a bit out of kilter because I think the talk about propaganda is interesting I hope you doesn't we'll forgive me for pointing out that the there is a section about Thatcher's funeral in the propaganda exhibition over the road and I think the conservatives did go out of their way to use it and it became very very difficult I mean you know ad and the speaker and every else they were put in impossible position but I think I think that it is interesting that her reputation that was best controversial while she was in power and as I said from the the way that we used there in our campaigns seen as a negative by her own party and buyers for quite a period out of power but in death when people make her if you like a broader possibly fair or judgment seen as a huge figure and true she was a huge figure so I think that that goes back to my point about strategic communication being about communication over time and you never stop and you just keep going again history is very important as well yeah yeah I've got musashi wish about recent history but let's say yeah the guy on that will go from side to side so to speak no way what are the things that the public does not want to hear in other words things that are true but if any politician says it then they're out of power okay well it's only right of power but I mean for example in my previous answer to the gentleman over here I sort of criticized the public a bit that's always quite tricky but actually I think politicians should do it much more I really do you know for example the whole thing about people's complaints about the public services that they make the fact you know that all they only get engaged with with with talking about a public service when they go out to criticize it because something's gone wrong we all of us have a vested interest I think you take something like the National Health Service that was sort of proclaimed as part of the Olympics Opening Ceremony all the rest of it at the moment there's a kind of there's a demonization going on of people thing where within the health service and I think as it members of the public rather than play into that as we all tend to do and sort of join the herd stand out against it so IIIi think that the politicians who criticize the public that's always difficult I think that sometimes the public do not like to be told that what they deem should be possible is not possible but again I think I think politicians have to be much more honest about about saying that because back to the point I made earlier about policies now become more complicated the idea of an election being a place where you say and we're going to do I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this I'm gonna do this and we do this it's not as easy in a way as it used to be even back in 1997 you know we had a fairly limit the five the famous five produce cut class sizes and we did it the cut the NHS waiting times and we did it the new the New Deal of the unemployed they were they were for selling really easy but it's much more complicated when your economy is now so interconnected when what happens in the eurozone eurozone profoundly does affect what happens in our economy it just be life just got a lot more difficult I think because of globalization the ravine upside strip but they've been downsides as well and I just wish the political debate was more open honest about that and then it becomes about values you actually start to vote for party a against party B because of what they believe and what they stand for as much as for the kind of here's the detail of how I'm going to cut the deficit not the NHS nice easy promise to make is failed on both okay let's go to this side yet what about the I'm feeling for these guys are ladies all you got all make over here I run okay I will go with their necks will move over Bennet's my have to take two or three at a time get few in yeah hi and if I can return to what you're saying earlier about the images of politicians as opposed to what they're actually saying I mean my English teacher is going to have my head for this but how much over analysis do you think there is in terms of you know admin abandon soap books and all of that kind of stuff because I am quite skeptical about how much that stuff really matters what is your English team to think um well everything's analyzed to you know the tea basically and everything has about 100 meanings but I'm not sure of everything to us right BC if I go around the place and people as they do so just come up and start to talk to you about about policies and stuff people do talk about the way politicians look and they do talk about the way politicians sound and they do talk about the way politicians dress now it's really annoying but it's but it's real you know I felt funny but we're just having a cup of tea up backstage and I said why does David Cameron always wear a blue tie you notice that he only ever wears a blue tie now maybe it's his favorite color maybe it's a political statement I don't know but there's me as like you know who'd like to think of myself as quite a well educated sophisticated political thinker and I'm saying - I'm saying to sleep I'm saying as the vision I think I'll always wear a blue tie now it's not going to change the way I vote because I'm not gonna vote for him if he's the last person on earth what I might if he was the Chamber glasses but weak that Alice Campbell Mike below if he is the last girl I mean we used to eat you know it's like I can remember um oh when was it there was about phone-hacking right back in 1990 something but it was all about what they call those and pages were the pages right my pager number was over one five two three five two three five two three and the number was 897 $3 - three famous pager that was at you you definitely too young to remember this but our pages got hacked remember this yeah and the BBC did this story about the the message is through our pages and the one that they used was Angie hunter send a message to B for posture if es sake do something about his hair I put the letters because we were out it said where the wind was blowing and Tony's hair was kind of all over it now why does that matter because if he's on the television saying something and his hair doesn't look like you expect his hair to look you're going to think what's wrong with his hair won't listen to a word voice and you won't hear a thing it well says Gordon Brown used to have a terrible trouble his time and the number of people who would say to you why can't Gordon to his tie straight Gordon was like a big brain right and he probably wouldn't care less about his time you'd rather be you'd be happy with never had to wear a time but you know if you're on the television and your tie is like a bit over there it's damaged do you mean us wedge you notice people got their hands up this guy that guy not okay can we do you mind we'll take okay let's yeah what do you think the long-term the future is for left-of-center media such as it is left-center media media one certainty about the next election is that Labour and Ed Miliband will be in the dock there will be stories accusing a pimp being a traitor vicious nasty personal stuff and all the rest of it and I suspect these people are already fishing around they've already probably got a bank of stories that they're going to use and at the next election and it'll be very much a pro you know what a wonderful person Georgia the Chancellor has been sorted out the mass that Labour left left us the other thing that worries me is that the next conservative manifesto will probably contain a a clause for the privatization of the BBC and the news of part of it may well be delivered to their friends in the media you know the park liberals Oh ever and we might end up with you know Fox News UK overhaul all the media tea the sky will go broke inserted my glory is sorry okay that's it isn't very interesting point about the next election actually clearly it's gonna be a bit like 92 when they went for Neil Kinnock and why special questions on that front is should do you think they will is there a media counter to that or do you think basically the Guardian and others are sort of almost dying in front of our eyes does that worry you well the thing is maybe this is wishful thinking this is obviously quite an educated sophisticated audience now January so how many people here show of hands if I may I thought there was a sort of grain of truth in what that gentleman was saying in terms of how our media is and is likely to be so I think you see there is greater public awareness now do you that that is kind of what they're about I think the way that they've reported and handled the Leveson inquiry has been a further blow to their own erosion of their own credibility because they are trying to be both spectator player and commentator in the whole thing and I think the public are onto that when you look at the the polls that are not published people have a very very different view of the press than the Houston I'm not saying that doesn't mean that if they just have their lighted upon lines about Neil connect you know the Welsh windbag or the you know last person put the lights out and all that I'm not saying that might not have had an effect but I I'm sort of I don't think the British people are stupid and I think they kind of can some maybe suede some may be suede I do think the for example in relation to Europe I think that the press has driven a lot of the the agendas the position the way that where we're at but but it's Cameron who has now pushed the pushed it into the place where you Kapoor you know running with respect from the newspapers haven't the slogans as with here pegged to a exhibition on propaganda they've been quite good on slogans about the recent past which is always a dangerous area don't give the keys back to the guys who crash the car that that kind of thing why accessible read I didn't didn't take off but but what are their equivalent I mean new label very good prudence for a purpose and you know for the many not the few just I'm not saying this is the most significant thing in politics but as we're here talking about messaging and propaganda but they had to up think of any counter to those at the moment very slowly no that's why it's back you see I've said before that I think that part of the while we were busy electing a new leader after we lost the last election the Tories were very very disciplined and systematic in laying this this message down about the mess we inherited you know let's forget the fact it was sort of you know born in the subprime mortgage market in the United States let's forget the fact that this affected every single country in the world let's just get it absolutely pinned on Gordon Brown and they they've been pretty good at that we have not pushed back hard enough on that I completely accept that now interpret in terms of what happens come the next election will the papers have that that ability to shift opinion in the same way that they may have done in the past I go back to the point I made about the the Sun Beck's Blair they we led that that was not them shifting their readers that was them recognizing their readers had shifted and I think that too many politicians almost an interview with Clinton about this stuff and he said too many politicians define their reality according to the media as opposed to use the power that they have as politicians to create the framework in which the media then has to operate and I think is turning in Astana the one of the reasons they hate us still and still current would happily sort of you know Barry Tony Blair if they could is because we did actually set the agenda you have to set the agenda and at the moment I don't think Cameron is such an agenda and so far as he is he's been pushed around and between annulation ed has got himself get himself in a position where if they do throw that kind of stuff that you're talking about the public are thinking or well no one doing this no Leslie okay yeah you visa these two are the longest okay's patient okay where we go okay the Mike's coming down here and then I promise you up that sometimes if propaganda is said it is effectively you know people may stop believing it or sometimes one maybe I've seen too much of all we Bremer but do you think there was a danger that you're effectively so effects with what you did that maybe people began to think there was spin and then moving on to Gordon Brown he was not effective enough with Gordon Brown I thought you know does he actually believe what he's saying you know that seem to be mixed messages coming released with Tony you knew what you're getting with him person interesting I mean the Rory I've got a remember Jack Straw saying that he thought that just as sort of yes Prime Minister can I've got the kind of that era and spitting image kind of did for Thatcher in terms of the sort of authoritarian figure and David Steele in the pocket of Owen and rest of it he thought that the Rory Bremner sketch with me and Tony sort of did for Tony in a way and that's what led to the thick of it and all the rest of it now I don't think that mattered in the end because I think there was I was there was a grain of truth when people say people's often say you know do you recognize yourself in the Malcolm Tucker character and I say what you mean the psychotic Scottish spin doctor who feels yes to control the politicians on the media but I think that the I think that the the Rory bream that's sort of sense of look if you think that spin is what I define a strategic communication then it's real I would defend I wouldn't just defend it as being as being important and essential but also as totally legitimate legitimate part in particularly a democracy you you have to have a very strong strategic communication function if you don't particularly our media is you get blown away and this idea that politicians shouldn't sort of fight for what they believe in and argue and try to win the next election is part of what they're there for given that work just on the Gordon Brown and sampler is interesting because he was she all know much better than me but I know bit he was pretty obsessed by the media actually and rightly something it was that they mediate that no one watches politics 24 hours a day so you depend on the media so given his obsession and interest in it why could he not convey a message by the time he became Prime Minister do you think I think he could and let you know let's remember if you look at back at the last election and when I went back to help Gordon and particularly in relation to preparing for the TV debates if you look back at that election I mean the playing field was absolutely made for David Cameron economy not going well and Gordon getting the blame expenses had defined the last Parliament and Labour MPs were going to jail the war in Iraq was back in the headlines because of the inquiry Afghanistan was going not going well Gordon was copying of that as well the press were giving Cameron an absolutely easy ride and he didn't get a majority we had the whole bigger gate thing and we won in Rochdale what we won in Rochdale yeah where that happened so so I think that Gordon he could communicate at his best Gordon was I mean Gordon was a really powerful orator some of the best conferences pictures speeches of our time with him really sort of delivering he knew how to deliver a message and you had to drive a message but I sometimes think that Gordon would have been you know a talked about the previous era pre not just the pre television but pre this 24/7 relentlessness I think go I can imagine Gordon you know in a with the qualities that he has and with the strengths that he has and with some of the weaknesses that he has I can I can see Gordon of the can of Gladstone Ian's era as they're absolutely got a massive political figure but there's something about the relentlessness of 24/7 be a general other one who's an interesting this who's who also figures in the propaganda exhibition is Bush the bush there's America where you think well that's the big that's the the biggest most difficult democracy and of them all in terms of you know campaigning all the rest of it so Bush is won two elections you've got to think he's got off something about him he was somebody who was much much much more impressive in private than he wasn't public how do you explain that that he the minute the cameras came on something happened to his and he just became like a different sort of person weird isn't that where was the up there I promise do you think it's good bad even dangerous for a party when their political spokesman their press secretary becomes a media personality a celebrity in its own right celebrity no I didn't do top gear when I was in down history it's not good but it's but it's very hard to avoid I mean at the moment does I want to talk about this Garland and Crosby the Australian guy now went and is true when I left for example I was replaced this is going to sound really boast when I was replaced by three people but the the job that was given to the guy who was doing the briefings Tom Kelly and Godric Kelly got him Smith was in a sense to to take the heat out of the briefings to make them less of an event fine one was the civil servant wasn't the boats officer well they both those rights yeah and and that happened and that was a very effective calm things down when Gordon came in he he said right you know we've been damaged by sleaze and we've been damaged by spin now once you say that and you set those your framework you've got me really careful because if you accept the sleaze agenda you stop doing the fundraising that you need to do to fight campaigns and that happened and if you set the sort of it's all spin agenda you stop communicating and that happened as well and so you've got to be I can remember I used to get a little bit worried about this and I can remember Tony's saying to me look you've got understand why they're doing this they're building you up in the way that they do in the same ways to do their says they can try knock them down but they're also doing in relation to you because they're trying to build up the line that I can't cope without people like you around me and he was a big enough not to worry about that because he knew that ultimately it didn't it didn't ultimately really matter have you ever met anybody who said I'll vote you Tony Blair I'm not going to vote from now because that was to Campbell obey you haven't you might have said I'm not going to vote from because of Iraq I'm not going to vote him because of spin and then when you probe it it would actually be about issues I've just going to finish the book about Ireland about my Diaries in relation to Ireland Toni's written a piece for it and it is it really reading because he is quite a thoughtful guy but one of the points he's made is that actually when people think back about his time in government now people do actually think about the things that are important I mean I could throw I could if you go through those Diaries out there there are frenzies there are so-called crises there are scandals that I promise you 95 percent of people in this room would have totally forgotten at the time they led the news for a week they just don't then not important so the thing about me as a character a personality and the government I was there I was a real person I was making I was doing the job that I did and I attract a lot of heat and don't forget the other thing is this important in those positions top guy they do need lightning conductors sometimes it was me sometimes which Peter Mandelson sometimes it was Derry Ervin sometimes it was Charlie Fortner that was part of the job and it's part of the fact that you need to have a team of people who are frankly taking the hits and I didn't mind doing that because I genuinely reached a point where I really really didn't care what the paper said I don't know no that's clear from clear from the dice who was that and this will be the last one I'm afraid just because we've run out all right Lee called it okay right in the corner had top right the mic is coming all this build-up so something this better be a good question of answering Alice do you you've spoken about democracy and you've spoken about political education and touched on the deficit alistair do you accept that new labor or just the Labour Party in general tends more to use public spending as a propaganda tool than other parties and secondly do you or did you at the time have any worries about the long sustainability of that hmm rescue question is very pegged to this exhibition yeah uh I certainly think that for a period we and I think particularly Gordon losses were in charge of that side of things and I think that we did things sometimes the announcing that we were going to spend money on things was of itself a good thing to do for our political purpose so you know if you if you think about the spending reviews and the budgets right people know you have to kind of you have to test you have to outrun the state of the economy you have to say where you're going to raise money and then you have to you know they usually end even George Osborne sort of tries to end it with some sort of you know oh you didn't see that one coming but I'm going to spend money on this now I think that and let's go outside you're frightened this is why I think we've said to the gentleman earlier that I think we've we've not pushed back hard enough on the kind of the Conservatives message about our time in power because let's just remember we had we did have ten years of growth and prosperity growth and rising prosperity and we were spending more than public services and it ended badly and it ended badly not to my mind because Gordon Brown spent too much but because there was a financial crash that the whole of the developed world and I think we should be saying that far more often but but in direct answer to your question did we see that as politically useful to us did we successfully over that period of time frame an argument so that the Tories felt when they came to the election they had to say we won't cut the NHS otherwise they felt they'd never get elected then yeah I would that part of the question I think I'd agree with the premise is that what you meant is you also mean using public spending for actual formal kind of government messaging advertising some things I don't know is that no I thought you wish did you mean that just putting the case for public spending and pouring a help and that's also respecting between long-term gay and the next week so where did you see that spectrum much at the time you know if you if you had a headline saying if you had lines in labor to spend 40 billion pounds more on the NHS okay that would let's just say and that was let's say that was true okay and that was what you wanted to communicate it from that announcement that is of itself useful to have useful in a microscopic way far more important is then what happens to that money being spent and whether it delivers better health care more hospitals more nurses more doctors so I don't think no you want you want in government or in any project you want a sense or let's just take this exhibition you had a launch yesterday you invite the media you get out and do radio you get on television you try and get the public to come in you understand some momentum behind that you then want people tweeting say been to this exhibition really enjoyed it and then other people go nuts you know that's in any project that's happening so that's happening in government as well and it's happening in every department in government it's a small part of what they do far far far far more important is actually what they do with the money and whether that project is working and one of the problems I think this government is guys the extent to which they keep announcing things and doing things and then these reviews come along and they say that hasn't actually happened I mean most of what we say how to do now if you're going to read the 1997 manifesto we actually delivered we did deliver it I mean after my time no III think I think that's a fair point okay and on that note we've got to end the meeting thank you all for coming along to go to the exhibition and indeed read the Diaries but most of all for now thank you to County you you

Channel: The British Library

Views: 34,783

Rating: 4.7023253 out of 5

Keywords: British Library, Alastair Campbell, social media, propaganda, Labour Party

Id: _Gu4ZEMOB78

Length: 85min 29sec (5129 seconds)

Published: Tue May 21 2013