Alastair Campbell: Questions about my role in Iraq War are 'boring'

this line of questioning almost always only ever comes from journalists right and I think that is part of the problem I think I think you're asking those questions you're a journalist you'd ask you these questions would you know no I wouldn't actually because I I think you I mean how many million times have I been asked them do you really think you're going to get anything terribly new or interesting but maybe but maybe you keep being asked them because there's something there's something unsatisfactory there might be but then it just gets boring when I say there were six inquiries into how I handled the the so-called Dodgers yeah why why politics has gone so wrong this is basically a book about how to restore trust in politics obvious first question to start with some people might say you're not quite the guy for that well they might and they're entitled to I would disagree for many reasons one of which is that I've got a lot of experience of of politics and of media which I think is a big part of what's gone wrong with politics and the second thing is that I I do understand why people look at back at our government and think you know Iraq promises made they weren't fulfilled when we went in after the invasion but if I look back at 13 years of new labor and compare it with what was what's being achieved in 13 years of conservatism uh we for example 2001 we did a line by line analysis of our Manifesto of 97 before the 2001 campaign we virtually delivered a lot of it so people can say I mean if I may say I think your first question is a classic piece of what about it which is one of the things that is wrong with our with our political debate at the moment so they're entitled to say what they're like I'm entitled to say that politics to my mind has been come close to ruin through the forces of populism I'm not a populist Tony Blair is not a populist polarization we tried to bring people together in this in the center ground of politics rather than drive them out to the extremes and post-truth we're in an era of posed truth and Boris Johnson Donald Trump we've got erdogan going for again another election tomorrow Putin Modi Orban bolsonaro all around the world you've seen populist polarizing poetry politicians so that's the first third of the book is about how has that happened how have we allowed that sort of politics to take hold on and then I go on to what we can do about it and we'll come on to what we can do about the last of those the post-truth thing I'm sorry to come back to this but um I mean you are associated with with spin you are associated with selling a message that was perhaps overregging the reality in a variety of spheres not just in Iraq this is what people associate with you in their minds well that's what you decide as you sit at your microphone that's what you decide don't you do you think it's just me I think no it's not just you there's lots of people do but I don't think that's where the bulk of people are right I actually think that I I honestly do think right I do an awful lot of stuff out in the country yeah schools colleges businesses this line of questioning almost always only ever comes from journalists right and I think that is part of the problem I think I think you're asking those questions you're a journalist you'd ask you these questions would you not no I wouldn't actually because I I think that you I mean how many million times have I been asked them do you think do you really think you're going to get anything terribly new or interesting but maybe but maybe you keep being asked them because there's something there's something unsatisfactory there might be but then it just gets boring when I say there were six inquiries into how I handled the the so-called Dodge okay parking all that I'm not just developing that then moving on from that one does need to separate look uh inquiries and and and so on uh when you were in involved in government your government was well known remains well known for saying things which turned out to not be the case I didn't accept that at all tell me which well the the existence of wmd yes I know we've we've we've done it let me ask the question um I would say was well known for saying things which turned out to be not the case I as I understand it your contention is this may have happened sometimes that was an error these were things that were said in good faith and your contention with the difference between that and the kind of post-truth Lies we see today is the things are said that are not true that are not set in good faith is that is that fair yeah so so for example weapons of mass destruction part of the case for war it's been Rewritten that it was the only case or part of the case for war was our firmly held belief that he was developing a weapons that turned out to be wrong sure right you take something like brexit or you take something like Johnson's oven ready deal they were just lies they the the the the the lies at the heart of the brexit campaign they've never been held accountable do you think there were lies said by people who knew they were lying when they said them correct right I I think that there was no oven-ready deal there was no not remotely any proof that you were going to get 350 million pounds more for the National Health Service turkey was not going to about to join the European Union I would say now that you know the you've got in the new European newspaper that I that I work with you know we have a lie of the week and this week is Rishi sunak talking about the crime figures they've stripped out two categories of crime fraud and I can't remember what the other one is and they basically said so crime has fallen by stripping out two huge categories of crime so that to me is post-truth post-truth is Donald Trump saying that he won the election post-truth is Putin saying that it's a war it's not a war it's an invasion and so and and that's why and so it's not as bad here as it is maybe in America and Putin but that is the direction that we're heading in unless we're very very careful again I'm sorry I'm sorry to sort of go back because I'd rather I'd rather go forwards but I can understand your point about Putin and about Trump I would say what Richie sunac is doing with the crime figures that feels to me to be let further away from Trump than it is towards precisely the kind of new labor spin that you do but I don't agree I think you I think you're honestly struggling to come up with actual examples about because the new labor spin thing for me was a confection developed by large parts of the media because they couldn't find any real substantive stuff on which to take down the labor government so Spin and the whole obsession with me and Peter mandelson and all that stuff it became a replacement and it's also to be absolutely Frank and with respect I think you're showing it again today I don't think journalists are ever happier than when they're talking about journalism no that's fair yeah and and so we talk about spin we're basically talking about the media is all about the media and I have a very large section in the book about why the media is such a part of what's gone wrong I talk about the Murdoch daker generation thankfully fading away I talk about the fact that that although social media has got all the poison in it actually it has allowed other new voices to come on that I think are more interesting and more exciting in the debate so I'm basically saying I think that politics is out of touch I think the media is out of touch when I talk about the media obviously such a vast thing but yeah I think the media as it is understood this kind of media uh this why for example the podcast that I do with Rory is sure I honestly think the reason for its success is that we're not really like most of the other media we talk about stuff for like half an hour rather than five minutes we yeah we go into issues in foreign policy that knows the rest of the media aren't doing I'm giving you a little bit more than five minutes but how much of this book is about brexit and inspired by brexit a fair bit a fair bit I'd say what's what's inside the book is actually the number of people particularly young people and bear in Mind Over a third of our listeners are under 30. so there's something happening in this and the number of people who actually say that to me what what can I do because they feel powerless they feel they're they're not heard young people feel they're not heard they feel that it's really hard to get into the debate so yes a lot of it's about brexit because brexit for me was one of the high points of this populism polarization post-truth Trump embrace it at around the same time that is what took populism polarization posters into a completely different level and it's now happening in other parts of the world as well it's being pushed back in some parts of the world macron but macron could lose to it you know his party could lose to it next time so yes a lot of it's about brexit but it's much more the inspiration is much more about how do you say to somebody who looks at what they think politics is hates it yeah doesn't like the stuff in the Commons doesn't believe any of the parties really get them or I you know at various stages of the book of writing I sent it to a whole collection of young people in their 20s and 30s and and a couple of teenagers as well one of whom is my nephew Jamie Nay she was actually the leader of a council now and he's in his 30s he wasn't he was a young counselor when I started with the book and it's fascinating because he he so he he's obviously known me all his life and he's made some fantastic comments which some of which I've included in the book but his main observation when he read the first draft was your experience me Alistair your experience of politics has been like at the top level alongside a prime minister you try being me as a young person trying to get into the labor party trying to go to meetings and have an impact and being told by the older people oh we've never done it like that before you go off and do that Social Media stuff because that's what young people do so I think people that's the inspiration how do we change politics and political parties so that people actually enjoy being part of them as opposed to I've I know hundreds of young people who've done one party meeting yeah and they've been people feel alienated and pushed away from um look on brexit you and I we were on the same side and brexit we were both you know to varying degrees active remain campaigners do you feel that brexit itself the fact that referendum was lost was in some way a pushback against politics being dominated by people like you and to a lesser extent people like me no I don't I think it really yeah partly possibly but no I think well let me say I think there's a much bigger thing that was pushed back on it was a pushback on the fact that this is what I say in the book Holland and Merkel said to David Cameron listen do you really know what you're doing with this referendum because what's going to happen you're going to find people are going to give you a kicking for stuff that's got absolutely nothing to do with Europe and the big thing was David Cameron and George Osborne were out there saying vote leave and we put this great economic recovery at risk millions of people were saying what economic recovery are you talking about my life is not improving either having to live through austerity Etc I think a lot of it was about that added to which when I tried to explain to people what I think populism is people think populism is about politicians saying things to be popular it's not populism is the deliberate division of the population between an elite and the pure people and what's incredible is that Johnson hold etonian Rhys Mark holdertonian farage privately educated city Trader Trump inherited wealth billionaire they've somehow become the voices of the people against an elite and they've done it very successfully through this peep 3p approach is that not similar to uh fighting back against the forces of conservativism it wasn't that in a similar way I mean a bit in a less in a less strident way well depending on where you sat on it saying there is there is a a body here an elite here that is holding us back I I don't think the forces of conservatives I don't think we were just talking about an elite we're talking about entire systems right our media I think is part of the forces of conservatism I think our entire financial sector is part of the force of conservatism so no I don't accept that parallel at all I think that what you an added to which there's as it happens Tony didn't ultimately didn't like that force of conserved in speech because it allowed itself to be misrepresented in the way that I think you've done I liked it I liked it because I think it actually gave us a radical Edge to what we were trying to do before the many not the few right um whereas what Trump Putin uh earlier one and these guys doing they are representing the pure people as an elite that is using politics to benefit for themselves and I think we see more and more that of that in Britain as well you look at some of the you know I when your dad was like a conservative politician I can't I can't think of any single politician in that era of his party who would have got up to some of the stuff that we've seen through the whole covid uh not just the parties but the you know what I see is corruption in public spending Etc I just cannot imagine that would have happened so we have our politics has become corrupted through populism through polarization through post-truth on polarization and look we're very nearly out of time you had a you had a big ding dong on news night the other night that you've been you've been trending on Twitter ever since you you're a debating still so I think that think still I haven't checked he was debating uh Alex Phillips formerly of the brexit party yeah uh and you and you and you you got crossed and you shouted and you wagged your finger a bit and you've had a bit of a fight with Victoria Derbyshire as well um is that not the kind of politics and the kind of political messaging that your book is all about saying you mustn't do anymore yes [Laughter] um it is it's and also the podcast the podcast motto is disagree agreeably um and I accept it immediately as soon as I left the studio I did a tweet say look you know that was not disagree agreeably but I think it goes back to this this point it's so I say in the book it is so frustrating yeah and I'm sorry to keep going about the media but I said I made the point that I think I was in the BBC studio so I singled out at BBC but I think right across the media for the last not just seven years since the referendum but in the the decades leading up to it the the arch Euro Skeptics are never properly challenged they are used almost as commentators come in and tell us why you think that actually you know the government's not doing a good job come in and tell us why you think the the elite is kind of you know destroying the people and I just think I just get sick to death of it sometimes where they're allowed to talk in my view absolute crap and don't get challenged so it just gets very very frustrating so no I I I I and I don't regret I I did apologize to Victoria Derbyshire I certainly apologize to the to the brexit party woman because I I thought what she said both on the program and afterwards about the discussion was complete nonsense and for Nigel farage and Richard ties to come out and say Alistair Campbell should be banned from ever appearing on the BBC again I mean that is real snowflakeery of a kind of you know Omni level Look Before I Let You Go kirst Armor's been speaking today talking about her labor must be new labor on steroids uh what do you think about that I thought he said that it's going to be reforms on steroids as opposed to newly I don't I don't I don't think he should be considering relating himself to new laborers who I wanted a whole new agenda new new labor yeah I hope that's what's coming down the track because I think what Kiera has done really well is this is distance labor from the Eber of corbyn he's done very well at showing that the conservatives are absolutely totally unfit for office and have got to go and this next period has all got to be about the big positive agenda for Change and I've not read his um his speech yet but I will read so do so with real interest and I hope that's where he's now going but it's not about I think we need to stop talking about the comprehensive new layer because the world is now completely different I want to hear about what labor and in fact I'd love to hear from the government as well what is the new agenda for how are we dealing with artificial intelligence and the technical Revolution what is the big agenda for for Education what how are we going to keep an aging population healthy for the long term really big questions foreign policy I want to hear more on that so what I like about today is that here is I think methodically moving to the next stage of his leadership and I hope to God he's prime minister soon well if you haven't read the speech then that presumably indicates you didn't write it either so that's that's helpful to know is that your last question it could have been

Channel: Times Radio

Views: 21,971

Keywords: alastair campbell, tony blair, alastair campbell interview, alastair campbell tony blair, owen jones meets alastair campbell, alastair campbell owen jones, owen jones alastair campbell, government, owen jonees meets alistair campbell, owen jones alistair campbell, alastair campbell (politician), alastair cambell iraq, institute for government, blunder britains war in iraq, campbell, alastair cambell brexit, uk government, war in iraq

Id: -Bxs-dmb9nY

Length: 15min 42sec (942 seconds)

Published: Sat May 13 2023