all right here we go glad TV like to welcome Michael franzis uh the only high ranking official of a major crime family to actually walk away without protective custody without witness protection and actually survive is that an accurate you know description I would think so to walk away publicly as I have done over the past several years yes so your background is actually in the Columbo uh crime family correct so let's go ahead and start in the beginning when did the Columbo crime family actually launch and start well um prior to it being the Columbo family it was the prachi family and Joel prachi was the original boss of that family and um it all occurred when lucky luchano broke up everything into you know several different families formed the commission so on and so forth so we're looking back to the uh you know' 40s around there when it really came into existence okay and there are five major crime families five major families in New York there are actually nine throughout the country oh okay so five in New York nine Nationwide correct and the Columbo was like the youngest in New York uh you know it could be Columbo and bonano families were kind of the uh the smaller of the families I would say my boss at the time used to like to say uh we like quality not quantity in the amount of guys that uh we bring into the family so okay so so Joseph Columbo uh I guess he served from like 63 to 71 correct okay and then the family was named after him at that point yes during this time how big was the Columbo crime family like how many members uh we had uh about 115 maid members at the time men that actually took the oath and we had a lot of Associates obviously guys that were around the life but didn't actually take the oath they weren't made members and they're known as Associates we had hundred hundreds of them at the time okay were the associates considered soldiers or or no no um Associates when you come into the life and you take the oath you come in as the position of a soldier um that's when you're you're a maid man at that point got it okay and I guess during that time there was a bunch of major Wars that were happening in the Columbo family yeah back at that time uh just prior to Joe Columbo becoming boss who we had the Gallow prachi War when the Gallow brothers who were part of the family kind of revolted and uh there was a war going on at that time Columbo family we've had our share of Wars you know during our existence so that was uh I mean I was alive through that one so it's one that I remember okay what year was that around it was in the 50s 50s into the 60s yeah okay so we get into the 60s um Columbo takes over and there's another War at that point uh not really I mean uh they called it the Gallow of the Columbo War also but it was kind of like a a spillover uh because I think uh at the time The Gallows felt that they should be in control of the family and so there was an internal War at that time over that and it was eventually resolved okay and during these wars basically guys are getting killed on both sides yes okay how bad were these murders getting at one point like how many people were getting killed on a monthly basis well again this was before my time actually as being involved in the life but my dad was a prominent figure at the time and um you know quite a few went down during the Gallo prachi War Gallow Columbo War um I don't know the exact number at the time but I do remember some incidents with my dad since he was very active during that time and I know that we hadn't seen him for a while he was away because you know he was uh you know kind of undercover at that time and um quite a few guys were killed I remember um yeah it was a tough War okay so your grandfather was an associate but not actually a maid man that's correct yes but then your father became a maid man yes and how did he end up joining that whole uh the whole family you know my father would grew up in Brooklyn and he was uh was a tough kid good kid and uh he just caught the eye of you know some of the older guys some of the guys that were made at the time and he started to hang with them and you know the way he tells me my grandfather actually didn't want him to become part of the life even though my grandfather was very well respected in our neighborhood in Greenpoint but he never wanted to be involved although he could have he liked being you know on the outside and kind of cautioned my father to get involved because he said you know once you do your life is really not your own but my dad had it in him and uh you know he ended up getting uh involved in the 30s actually he was young when he got inducted okay and he actually moved his way up to an under boss correct yes okay so describe the structure because at the top you have the boss right and then you have the underboss and then the cappo yeah you have a boss and under boss a coopa regime or Captain and a soldier Okay and uh those are the four positions there is a position called consulier and he's kind of appointed by the boss as his advisor actually the position really is uh he is a leison between the men and the boss like if you have a gripe you know about something that's going on in a family you go to the ciliary he's supposed to straighten it out with the boss the only problem with that is that if you have a gripe with the boss and you go to the consiliary and he brings it to the boss you're probably going to get killed so you never gripe about the boss it's not smart in that life okay so your dad actually moved up from a soldier to a cppo yes to an under boss correct is there a reason why he never became a boss he went to prison yeah if uh I believe until today that if my father were on the street uh and didn't get into the the problems that he had he would have been the boss at one point so here you are growing up in this family and your dad is a high ranking member of the Columbo family right and you have siblings you have a brother and a sister yeah I was one of seven actually one of seven yeah I had two brothers and uh and all those sisters okay all the same parents um actually my father was married once before so we had he had three children from his first marriage okay then four four children with your mother okay so you have a you have this family and you're growing up and then you know as a kid you don't really know anything different but you're starting to get older and you're seeing that your dad is a little different than the other dads there's more police presence and there's more secrecy and so forth so at what point did you start to realize what's going on well it was early on because my dad was one of the highest profile figures of his day you know he was kind of like the John Gotti of his day if you can make that comparison but uh law enforcement tactics against organized crime were different back then than they are today you know today is everything is very covert undercover informance high-tech surveillance equipment back then when you were under investigation they wanted you to know about it and my dad was under investigation maybe for a period of about 10 years growing up in Brooklyn later on Long Island from seven or eight different agencies and they would all have a big presence in our lives they'd have their cars parked around our house 24/7 so whenever we would go anywhere as a family we had a parade of law enforcement Vehicles following us so you know I I I had a lot of scuffles with them early on and their presence was there so I grew up really hating the police I hated the government hated law enforcement so you would argue with the undercover tosic in front of your house and so forth yeah I mean I'd lead them on a wild goose chase if they thought my dad was with me you know and they did some things to get even with me and you know so I always had scuffles with them along the way I mean how is your dad doing his business if there's literally someone following him as soon as he comes home I mean as soon as he leaves the house to the point where he comes home again well he had to be very careful you know if he had a meeting that he didn't want them involved in he had to have an Escape Route you know one of the ways we do it I mean we had uh uh homes in Brooklyn you know we had a big my dad was one of 19 so we had relatives everywhere in Brooklyn so he'd go in the door of one house go through the backyard you know into the other house go out the front door the others way had somebody waiting and the cops were still waiting for him at the other house so you you know when we were under surveillance we had to devise different ways to try to shake the uh the tail that we had okay so you had a high school graduation party yeah and something interesting happened with that whole situation yeah well it was in our backyard my dad put up a big tent and we we had entertainment we had probably 500 people there and all of my friends uh they drove their cars obviously or they borrowed somebody's car to come to the uh to the event and uh the police were around detectives nasso County I should say and they took the license plate number of every car in the neighborhood every single car so several weeks later you know friends of mine are starting to get uh subpoenas to go to the grand jury and uh it was all about them attending uh you know my graduation party and if they drove somebody else's car and that person wasn't even at the event they got the subpoena because that's that's where they got the name from that license plate number so it was uh okay I mean in high school was there a level of hey that's that's Michael that's the son of so and so you don't really want to mess with him you know that type of thing or were you just a regular high school kid you know I mean look you guys knew who my father was and it was a thrill to some of them you know to be around me and to others they didn't care but you know when I was younger I had some issues of it because my dad had publicity and they oh you got a mafia father and you know I fight you know so it was that kind of a thing early on but uh it didn't hurt me too much you know in that regard uh so during this whole time your dad was not involving you in any of this he wasn't mentioning it at home nothing no my dad wanted me to go to school and be a doctor you know I was an athlete in school he was uh very supportive of me as as an athlete attended all my games and he wanted me to be legitimate okay grat graduate high school you go to college and then your dad gets busted yeah in the early 60s my dad was uh indicted several times three times in the state of New York very serious crimes Grand larsy homicide homicide was in Queens actually and he went to trial on all three of those cases over a period of a couple of years he was acquitted found not guilty but then in ' 66 the feds indicted him uh for masterminding a nationwide string of bank robbery he was convicted in ' 67 and sentenced to 50 years in prison 1970 after he lost his appeals he gets shipped off to leworth Penitentiary to do his time to begin his sentence and I was a Premed student hopster University at that point I was going to be a doctor and I was devastated when Dad went in I mean he was 50 when he went in I figured had 50 on top of that he'd never come out of prison alive so it was it was devastating okay and at that point you started thinking about the whole Mafia thing well what really happened no I can't say that uh Joe Columbo had started the Italian-American civil rights League what happened his son Joe Jr had gotten indicted by the feds on some case for melting down coins for their silver value or something crazy like that so Joey called us all up you know and he said hey my son is being framed we're not going to have this happen anymore to any of us he uh he said we want to go down to the uh uh the FBI building on 69th Street in Third Avenue in Manhattan we're going to pick at the FBI so for me hey great they framed my father this is a chance for me to maybe help my dad out so I was one of the first uh to to be on that picket line and I was a kid I was 18 19 years old and that's how I started to get involved with people on that line well I guess Joe Columbo got shot right next to you or yeah he uh well that aali American Civil Rights League grew into several hundred, members I mean Joey had a lot of influence there and it became a big deal you know the feds hated it uh Joey started to have have some problems because according to guys on the street he was bringing too much attention to that life and so on and so forth so we had a big rally 19771 in Columbus Circle in Manhattan huge there's probably 50,000 people there and uh we had a big stage set up because entertainment I mean I think Sammy Davis was there Sinatra was going to appear had top-notch entertainment and he was going to talk about what the league was all about and I I'll never forget it was a beautiful day and um I had just walked up on the stage and Joey had handed me some brochures to hand out you know up by uh a couple blocks up on 60th Street and I took them and because I was a captain in the league not in the family at that point in the league I had a button and uh I walked away I was about 10 steps away and all of a sudden boom boom boom I heard shots run out and somebody screamed Joey was hit Joey's been hit he went down and there was mass hysteria at that point so the boss of the family just got shot yes right next to you um was he killed at that point or no no he lingered uh for about six or seven years and then he eventually died but he was he was in a coma the whole time okay so pretty much that was that was the end of his correct his Reign at that point was that the first time you saw Bia violence uh yes that was my first experience like that of that seriousness that gravity yes okay but you ended up joining the mafia after that yes there wasn't a level of okay this is this is real this is not the movies this is what's really happening here's the head guy in my father's organization he essentially was you know essentially killed yeah and put in a coma after this situation maybe I'll stick to school instead well you know I had such a uh uh a goal a driving forceing me to help my dad get out of prison I believe my dad was framed cuz I asked him I said Dad what's with these bank robbery charges and he looked at me and he says son I'm innocent and what I why I really believed him is because the four bank robbers that testified against him were all drug addicts they were all junkies and from the time I was a kid my dad preached uh to me against drugs he hated anything to do with drugs so I said why would he get involved with drug addict so I believed that he was innocent he was framed and I figured if I didn't help him out he was going to die in prison so I told him I lost interest in school we were in the visiting room leev W Penitentiary I said that I'm not going to school I don't help out you're going to die in here and he we kind of went at it a little bit now your mother's going to be upset you're leaving school I said Dad it's too late my mind's made up and he said okay but if you're going to be on the street I want you on the street the right way and his mind the right way is to become a member of his life so he proposed me for membership at that point in time because you know you become a member of that life you can't just go up to somebody say hey I'd like to join somebody's got to propose you vouch for you say you have what it takes so in my case it was my dad he sent word down downtown he said my son I'm proposing him for membership and that's how it started okay so you became a recruit at that point correct this was what year this was in uh 70 around 72 okay and a year and a half later you became a maid man correct during that time were they just sending you out on missions and so forth you know I mean the way they ran it down to me the boss at that time he's now passed on Tom debella he said Mike I got a message from your father he said you want to become a member of our life is that true I said said yes here's the deal from now on 24 hours a day 7 days a week you're on call to serve this family the Columbo family that means if your mother is sick and dying and you're at her bedside we call you to service you leave your mother and you come and serve us from now on we're number one in your life uh before anything and everything and when if we feel you deserve this privilege you earn the honor to become a member we'll let you know so basically uh I'm on call 24/7 to do whatever I was told to do okay what were the worst things you had to do during that time look you know I always say this it's a tough question to answer but uh I like to be as honest as I can be you know a lot of menial things you know Drive the boss to a meeting sit in the car for 5 hours you know that until he comes out uh you had a meeting at 8:00 you weren't there at 7:30 you were late can never be late in that life never stuff like that and then uh you know look I'll be honest you know that life at times is very violent and if you're part of the life you're part of the violence and there's no Escape if you're told to do something you do it or you pay the price so to say I wasn't part of that would not be truthful I mean how did you take to the violence yourself at that point cuz you were what a teenager at that point or so I was uh when I got straightened out I was 24 so I you know but I was recruited 22 okay so you're in your early 20s yeah and now you're you're you know essentially being forced to do these violent Acts or else right well look I had a choice I could have said no and walked away at that time and and just gave it all up but I didn't so I don't like to see anybody push me into it I mean I made a conscious choice to do this and um you know I'll be honest with you look um I can't say I was comfortable with everything that I had to do during that time um but I did it you know I didn't want to uh uh I didn't want to displease my dad and I didn't want anybody to think I didn't have what it takes to do what I had to do so you know when you have to do things that are unpleasant at least in my experience you kind of step outside of yourself if you're capable of doing that do what you have to do and then you know you move on okay so then a year and a half later you actually made correct and there was a ceremony where they burn something in your hand I believe yeah it was a picture of a saint Catholic gold deard they prick your fingers and blood drops on the floor and they burn a saint in your hands and and you take an oath okay and you actually came in with another group of guys yeah it was uh in the early 70s or the mid 70s they had the expression that they opened the books meaning that they were starting to bring in a lot of guys prior to that for about 20 years they weren't making any new guys the only way they would make a guy in a family is if they had to replace a guy that died but then in the mid-70s they opened the books up and they were taking guys the families were building up okay you're a part of that buildup yes now out of the the guys that joined in with you only one of them is still alive um that's correct yeah okay they're what five or six guys well the guys the night that I took the oath there were six of us I'm the only one alive out of them okay I'm the only one alive out of that group but there are some guys that took the oath during that period of time that are still alive so now you're a maid man in the mafia how did that feel you know it felt good I mean you know this is what I aspired to be at that point in time and I uh I kind of did you know I paid my dues to get into that life so you know when I got in I I wanted to be the best possible mob guy I could be I'll be honest I was more motivated to do two things I wanted to get my dad out of prison and I was uh helpful in that we did get him out on parole uh after serving almost 10 years and I wanted to make money my dad said you know in that life you make money it translates to power not unlike the real world so I was fortunate I had head for business and I knew how to use that life to benefit me in business I was very aggressive I brought some new things into the family that hadn't been done before so um I was uh successful at in that regard okay so you come in now you're a made man you're a soldier at this point so you don't have a crew well I had a crew of Associates Associates yeah I didn't have a crew of of made guys right so you you had a crew of Associates how many guys in the beginning oh gosh uh probably 20 okay nice nice group of people good size yeah good siiz group of people and you guys start doing crimes correct okay so what were some of the early money-making schemes in the beginning you know everybody that's involved in that life uh is start shylocking putting money out on the street on urious you know for urious uh interest rate so I did that okay so so let's talk about that for a second so a regular guy has a gambling problem and he gambled off his his rent that month he needs a couple thousand dollars he can't go to the bank because he's already maxed out on everything he goes to you says I need $2,000 right now correct you give it to him and what interest rate depends you know it depends on who it is and what the circumstances were you know for me it was anywhere from 1% a week up to 5% a week that's what I would charge 20% a month yeah so that means that if you gave him $1,000 he owed you $1,200 at the end of the month correct okay yeah what happens if he doesn't pay well you know what for the most part people pay and you know sometimes you make a deal but look you know people that are out to beat you uh and you find that out for instance we lend money to a gambler you know he says I promise I'm not going to gamble anymore and he's going to pay and then we find out he's gambiing everywhere else around town and he can't pay you well he may pay a significant price for that yeah put a guy in a hospital hurt him yeah it happens okay so you and your Associates are out there putting money on the street and making that money back in my case most of the time I would give the money to my associates and they would put it out to somebody else so I held my associate responsible really okay is a lot of money made through shylocking when you were doing it at that point or is it just okay it's enough to get buy but this is not really what my aspiration is well I'll tell you when I was uh when I was rolling pretty high and I had income from a lot of different areas I had almost a million dollars on the street million dollars in loans yeah out to various people whether they'd be in business whe they were my own guys and I was collecting you know two points maybe five points a week it all depend I probably average about 3% a week on the millions so it's a lot of money okay so million dollars that's $30,000 a week in just interest okay pretty good it's good money okay what were some of the biggest things you were loaning money on you know a lot of times in business iy owned a you know a club I got involved with a number of clubs they always need money you know and uh so you you know you're fairly you got a good shot of getting your money back because they have cash flow you know we're in the club we're watching we see what's going on we got the register there we got the guy so I tried to you know make my loans to people that I knew had the capacity to pay obviously you don't want to give it to anybody so people in business normally you had a shot okay and you know you see movies like for example Good Fellas where you see these type of scenarios play out where the person can't pay and now the mafia guy is a partner in the business was that happening yes yeah it was a way to get involved in a business like there were times when okay I don't want my money back but I'm your partner you know it's one of those things I mean it's it's a way we used to get in the door yes okay and actually your name was in Goodfellas yes well there was a guy I don't know if there's any really speaking roles outside of him saying hello but there was like the scene where it shows all the various guys in the mafia and there goes Michael yeah I mean the good Fell's thing it was a different family obviously but I was a pretty well-known gun I knew Henry Hill really well and I knew Paulie VAR I knew Jimmy Burke so I think I had some name value at the time so they threw me into the movie for that purpose you know but I really business-wise I didn't have much to do with those guys okay you're you're shylocking and you're making money that way but then you start getting into other businesses yeah so what comes next you know I had a legitimate business I had uh two automobile dealerships that I had put together I had a leasing company I had a couple of things going on in a legitimate sense but the biggest scheme that I ever fell upon I would say or help create was I devised a scheme to defraud the government out of tax on every gallon of gasoline and I ran that operation for seven years um I brought in the Russian mob guys uh from Brighton Beach Brooklyn because they had a independent station at the time branded an independent group of gas stations at the time and um we did quite well I had at one point in time I had over 350 gas stations that I either owned operated or delivering product to I had 18 companies um that were licensed to collect the tax on every gallon of gasoline I had connection to get the licenses at the time and at one point in time I was selling a half a billion gallons of gas a month and we were taken down 30 to 40 cents a gallon so if you do the math it was a significant amount of money you there was times we were pulling in $10 million a week so um I ran that operation for seven or eight years as a result of that I became pretty well known because everybody wanted to get involved in the business from not only from my own family but from other families so as a result I made some very good relationships with uh some prominent guys and some of the other families and uh you know I was riding High 1980 they made me a captain my former boss who just passed away a couple of weeks ago appointed me as a captain because I was bringing in a lot of money for the family so okay so you're basically charging a tax that didn't exist on gasoline no we were collecting the tax rather than paying the government we keeping it oh so you were collecting on behalf of the government and just keeping it for we just keeping it we weren't paying it okay and you're bringing in sometimes 30 or 40 million a week yeah well the collect the the tax on a gallon of gasoline back then uh was 25 to 30 cents city state local depending upon where you were located and it was 9 cents Federal she had about 40 cents a gallon so we were essentially selling the gas collecting the tax not paying the government and we had a scheme devised to uh uh to hold the government off and normally on any license that we had we had about 10 months before the government would come down on that company and say okay where's our money we held them off for 10 months but every day the register's ringing because we're selling gas we're collecting tax money and then when we uh when they finally come down on us we' just close the office and we'd move on to the next company with the new license it was kind of a daisy chain and they they couldn't figure out what we were doing almost a Ponzi scheme in a way in a way but but the uh the only victim was the government okay so now you're pulling in tens of millions of dollars yes now you're a cappo yes how many soldiers underneath you I had uh about 15 15 soldiers yes and then each of those soldiers had couple dozen Associates yes so you're overlooking hundreds of people now yes but the money you're bringing in is split it's not just 30 or 40 million in your own pocket correct you have to kick up to the underboss kick up to the boss yes and also distribute money to to your team yeah well we were all making money I mean look you know what this scheme was mine I mean I created it so I brought it to the family and as a result I I would give them 25% of whatever I earned at that point so they were making pretty good money and then of course we're taking care of everybody that's working for so but don't get me wrong there was plenty of money to go around so um everybody was doing we were known as a very wealthy crew no doubt okay and you yourself were starting to buy things for yourself as well I guess you had your own plane I had a Jet Plane I had a helicopter I had uh you know I built myself a 8,000 foot house with a racket ball court and a and a you know on two acres of land in Long Island so I had a house in Florida I had a house another house in Marina del r California so I mean you know I was I was accumulating wealth but along accumulating assets but along the way um I had legitimate business also I had a very successful Mazda dealership I had a successful uh Chevrolet dealership on Long Island um I had a Motion Picture company a Distributing Company I had bought into I was making movies I was Distributing them so I had a good income legally also so I was able to cover a lot of stuff okay so that's basically how you're laundering the money through the legitimate businesses I mean look we use tax money to make a movie at one point in time so you know $2.5 million film I you know that was a week's pay so you know it was pretty good so at this point the money is coming in like crazy yes was there ever a notion of okay I have enough money to retire with right now I could walk away from all this maybe go to a country that doesn't have us uh extradition with my family and just right off into the sunset never thought of ever leaving a America no not in any way shape or form and you know here was my attitude at the time you know you uh I knew I was going to go down at one point in time I mean we all knew that so you knew that the whole time yeah I knew it was going to happen I mean even though you got to understand I became a major Target of law enforcement I went to trial five times so they were really on me but here was my attitude you get just as much time for stealing a million dollars as you do for stealing a billion what's the difference so I may as well keep going because if I give this up somebody else is going to get it anyway I'm already in a mess so I may as well that's kind of the attitude I had I did my best to try to cover myself in many many ways but you know what what eventually got me was informance people let flip MH during that time how violent was the operation violent yeah um you know we didn't have to do many violent things I mean you know they considered us to be the robin hoods in the gas business because we we lowered the price at the pump because we weren't paying the taxes so we were selling gas cheaper than anybody else because we were keeping the tax money so people on the street weren't really mad at us because whatever we were stealing the taxes we were making up in their gas tank so they didn't care um we didn't have to twist anybody's arm in a station to buy our gas they wanted our gas because we were selling it cheaper you know I had a uh a big terminal I bought from British Petroleum BP in Oceanside we had we I think it was about a 3 million gallon capacity and I know it the one time the feds went to all the major oil companies and they said you know these guys are undercutting your business um but really we weren't because we were buying barges of gasoline as they were coming over from the Middle East from the major oil companies so we were buying more gas than anybody else was buying gas so they didn't care but they may believe that they did you know they sold me a terminal I mean we used to we used to have a good time with these guys so it it was I don't think you'll ever see another scheme like that I'll be honest with you well I mean during the time on the street you ran into Donnie Brasco yes okay but you never had any illegal dealings with him no I knew uh I knew Lefty rerio pretty well I knew Sunny black Sunny red but I never dealt with him on the street thank God for that I know him now but I didn't know him then okay you know him now yeah okay I like him actually he's good guy um so you no one had any idea he was undercover not at that time no not at that time when you found out that he was we were kind of shocked I mean you know he was around guys for a long time you know it it's it was kind cuz he first started with the Columbo guys with our family and then he moved over to uh you know to Lefty and that crew aha so he was actually working with the columbos one point did he get any any guys busted in the family I I don't think so no I think uh what happened was he for some reason he connected with Lefty and that relationship kind of prospered for him so that's where he stayed H when you saw the movie was it fairly accurate from what you knew in many ways yeah okay in some ways not but well you also dealt with John got yes the Teflon Don yes you had some problems with him at certain points sit Downs yeah over business you know you know I like John I mean we got along he was difficult to do business with you know I got be honest but on a social level great you know had a little fun we go out to a club you know he was he was a lot of fun to be around and you know I respected John a lot I mean he was uh you know he he was a guy that commanded respect he was different in a way but um you know I like him I like his family you know I'm friendly with them so okay when he got locked up because he was known as a Teflon Dawn because he kept beating his cases over and over again when he got locked up did that change the culture of the mafia no not at all because you know John was so out there I mean look when you're that high-profile it's only a matter of time you know and I say look I had a respect for John because he didn't make no bones about who he was you know he says I'm a Gangster this is who I want to be this is who I am and that's it accept it or not so you know there was no shame in his game in regard to that but you know honestly being that high-profile is not helpful you know I mean it it just causes more heat um but he was into it what was he going to do this is the way he lived his life you know so I don't blame him for anything other oh he was so high profile he brought heat everybody brings heat you know you can't blame him for that um well at one point you got into the booking business booking meaning uh Sports booking I guess and concert booking and so forth okay how did you get into that well um I was close to an agent who was an agent to the Stars he used to um uh book all the top black acts at the time in the business music acts you know he had he had a bunch of them Marvin Gay and Deion wck and all of that and he was very close to my dad I knew him my whole life so I got involved with him in in some ways and then um you know cuz when my dad went away he was he answered to me in many ways so I was kind of partners with him in that booking business and then one day he came and said hey I want to start representing athletes you know in their careers and I got involved with him in that business you know him and a guy by name of Lloyd Bloom so uh you know but I was on the periphery I mean I wasn't I wasn't actually in management but I'll be honest with you too I looked at it as a way to get around some of these athletes because I had a fairly big gambling operation on the street I had bookmakers that worked for me and you know we had athletes gambling with us at time and you know you get an athlete to compromise the outcome of a game you make some money so that was happening so these professional athletes were actually doing illegal gambling with your operation they would get into trouble gamble more than they had and then you would get them to actually throw a game or alter a game a little bit Yeah you get them to shave points you know it's remember it's never about winning or losing it's all about the point spread you know you cover you don't cover so um and these guys used to get themselves in trouble you know and and when they did they were gambling with the bookmakers they're not supposed to gamble outright right in front of anybody and they'd owe some money and uh you know then they'd come to us and we' say you got one or two choices you either pay us now and if you can't pay us you pay us next week and if you can't pay us next week then we'll tell you how you're going to pay us back and you know you got them to to get into a position where they wouldn't they either wouldn't play their position right to help us you know in the outcome of the game uh or or other ways what were some of the teams that were compromised during this time well look I you know I don't like to get into that but let me tell you it's across the board trust me you know at that time football baseball look basketball is one of the easiest games to to get somebody to go along with because you know um a basketball player a good player can pretty well control the outcome of the point spread MH a referee can control the outcome of the point spread and you may not win it in one game but if you have somebody working with you over a period of time most of the time you're going to come out ahead right and I guess these days that doesn't really work because the salaries are so high in the pros they you know they still gamble don't get me wrong but they can pay off their debt right now it's College oh it's college now College yeah okay were you doing College back then also yeah I mean I uh you know we had College athletes gambling with us and they get themselves in trouble and you know it's what happens you were actually involved with Al Sharpton and Don King yes during this time can you talk about that yeah I had a big undercover operation on me at the time obviously I didn't know it where um an FBI agent undercover and uh an informant that used to work with Muhammad Ali they were trying to Target the boxing industry for illegal gain and so they got to me somehow through somebody I knew and they were trying to get me to set up Don King and they were trying to put us both in a problem and see how we were fixing fights and how you know we were we're doing uh things we shouldn't have been doing in the fighting game and Al Sharpton who I knew very well at the time was my layers on between Don King and myself and um you know Don King I mean uh um Als shopton at the time he was a gun for hire you know we would uh we needed him to do some things with his own people which he called him at the time we hired him to do it we used to pay him you know he was he was uh he was valuable in music business because the Norby waltter is the guy had at that time that was booking all these acts we'd send Al out to to meet with the act that he wanted to book and Al would bring him to us for a price that's how we used him so uh I know Al very well okay and what happened with Don King well they had an undercover operation on me for about eight8 or n months I eventually but I was very leery of these guys I was very careful how I I worked with them and I eventually brought them to Don King but in the first meeting that I had with king I said look I I can only Trac these guys back maybe a year I said so in this first meeting we have don't say anything illegal play it straight say everything across the board they want to invest money they'll invest it with you we'll get into the fight game but don't talk about anything you shouldn't be talking about so we had the meeting and he did it exactly like that what happened was and there was a big c he called it Shadow Boxing that was the I mean Sports illustrator wrote it up there it was a whole big thing uh what happened was they tried to continue they were trying to get the money to give to Don it was going to be a lot of money at the time and they had I believe 81 tape recordings of me they turned it over to the US attorney at the time and none of those tape recordings uh uh work to have me indicted I didn't say anything on them that would hurt myself so they eventually had to close it down and it went nowhere but the only one that got in trouble over that was Al Sharpton because he tried to do a drug deal with the uh the agents and uh and then he became an informant after that 100% no matter what he says he was an informant he tried to do a drug deal they got him on tape doing the deal the whole bit Al Sharpton Al Sharpton was it informant absolutely 100% okay did he get anyone busted that I don't know um but you know there's a lot of uh there's a lot of news on this I mean news day wrote a three-part series on his being you know Al shopon and getting himself in trouble I don't know how he skated that but that's Al I mean he's a good talker he gets away with stuff 2002 you did a a real Sports uh uh appearance Brian Gumble with Brian Gumble and you talked about how you quote unquote persuaded Yankees players who owed you money to uh affect the games well I didn't actually do that um they tried to get me to say that it was y now I'm a diard Yankee fan last game I'm going to hold accountable as the Yankees but they tried to get me to say that it was Yankees and all I said is look we had members of a lot of teams that were gambling with us players and uh I'm not singling out the Yankees okay fair I'm not saying they threw any games I'm not saying that okay not with my Yankees well you were involved in the NBA at one point uh in with NBA players well you had some sort of involvement in the NBA well I was actually a a speaker for them I was speaking to a lot of NBA rookies for a couple of years okay about what dangers of gambling aha yeah they recruited me to actually talk to the as you were running an illegal gambling operation no this was after this was after this was after yeah well you spoke on the Michael Jordan situation yeah how how involved were you you know in terms of of your well I'm not going to say your involvement but how much did you know about that whole situation because Jordan himself was a a serious gambler yes you actually referred to him as a degenerate Gambler he's a big Gambler big I mean Michael gambles on everything from what my experiences what I was told and people that know him yes okay do you personally know him at all or no I met him I met him uh actually had a a an NBA deal that we had an event yeah okay but he never gambled with you with me no okay so he had the serious gambling problem and then his father gets murdered and there was always speculation if one had something to do with the other from what you know again I don't have firsthand knowledge of this but being that I was working with the NBA at that time um I was told two things one that he was told to leave the NBA around the time that his father got murdered because stories were about to come out and there was a lot lot of heat on the fact that because of Michael's gambling habit his father paid the price and the NBA didn't want the uh uh the Press so they asked him to leave for a while that's when he went to play baseball and then when things settled down he came back the plan was always from what I was told uh for him to come back now again I heard this from a source I believe was pretty knowledgeable somebody I knew pretty well Inside the NBA um so for me it's secondhand information but I thought it was reliable and then putting it all together knowing knowing that you know Michael did have this uh gambling issue uh that is very possible that that could happened s saying there's a a strong possibility that his father was murdered because he wasn't paying back his gambling debts I don't know again I can't be specific I don't know if it wasn't paying back I don't know what again the specifics of it were but I was led to believe that it had something to do with his gambling problem okay exactly what I don't know and honestly I I didn't care enough to look into it okay and the guys who killed him got got caught and sentenced from what I heard Yeah Yeah by age 35 Fortune Magazine did a uh I guess a list of the top Mafia earners of all time and you were number 18 on that list yes so how did it feel to as someone that's supposed to be a legitimate businessman to now have this article in this major magazine about you being one of the top earners in the mafia well uh you know people want to make the Forbes list but I don't think in this way no you know that was uh it came out in ' 86 and it was a huge it was the 50 biggest and wealthiest mob bosses in the country yeah and they actually it was a huge article I mean it was half the magazine they actually featured six of us and I was one of the six and then they had the list featured as an interviewed no they featured six people in that article got it six got that were on the list I was I was actually the youngest guy on the list and I was five behind Gotti at the time he was he was 13 he hadn't been made boss yet but um uh it hurt me bad because I was in prison at the time when the list came out and they locked me down because of it because Roy Rowan the uh the author of the article uh reporter he was talking a lot about me in the press and all the interviews that he was doing so when you you're in prison and you get in all that media they lock you down they don't like you having that so I never read the article until I got out I didn't even know what it was but uh you know I always say this you know I don't know how they make a list like that they didn't ask for our tax return so I don't know how that came about but it was It was kind of silly but I'll tell you what's not silly about the list they're all dead or in prison I'm like the only one alive out in the street they're all gone everybody on that list within 33 years dead or in prison for the rest of their lives well they said that you were the biggest money earner in the mafia since Al Capone well again I I don't have the the stats but um I don't think there was anybody earning more money than I was at that time like I said there'll never be another scheme like I was part of creating in the gas business at that time I mean it was it was unbelievable money and um you know since the days of prohibition I was told that that was the most money that uh that any one guy was bringing into that life okay so here you are making hundreds of millions of dollars living a lavish lifestyle and your father is already on the radar of law enforcement so you get on the the radar of law enforcement as well so at what point did you realize okay things are starting to close in on me in terms of law well you know my first uh after I had three stat indictments I had a number of arrests they arrested me a lot but I had three state indictments I went to trial I beat all those cases all Grand lony and extortion and all that kind of stuff beat them all and then uh juliani indicted me on a big racketeering case and I was one of the first major mob guys he indicted under the RICO statute I was a lead defendant me and this other fellow who's now dead and um I knew that was serious I knew that it uh they convict me on that I'm going away for a long time okay and Rico even though it was already on the books it wasn't really used until your time correct it was on the books from what I understand uh since 1970 but it was never really used properly and Giuliani came from Washington became the US attorney southern district of of New York Manhattan and he was the one that started to use the Reco law effectively against us and I was one of the first big indictments and um I was on trial for several months and I beat that case if I don't beat that case I probably wouldn't be sitting here now because uh he would have given me 50 or 100 years okay how much money were you spending on lawyers during this time I spent millions millions on lawyers yes Millions okay so you're spending millions of dollars well you're making tens of millions but you're spending Millions yes as well to keep you out of prison yes so you're getting these indictments and you're actually going to trial and beating these trials yeah I went to trial three times in the actually four times in the state and then this big federal trial in in the southern district of New York in Manhattan in the courtroom so I I was tied up for several months on that case and then of course you're preparing for a year before you go to trial I mean it's it's it's a big strain on you but you know fortunately I beat the case at the end result worked out okay okay so so you actually won through a jury verdict yes I was acquitted aha so the jury unanimously said that not guilty not guilty okay and in a criminal case which is different than a civil case it's you know much harder to convict somebody it has you know um what's the What's the phrase they use uh Beyond Reasonable Doubt well I don't think it's too hard to convict somebody because the conviction rate is pretty high you know and especially with the feds well the fed's like a 95% conviction States definitely lower State's lower yes okay you rather be indicted by the state than the feds anytime that's for sure uh but Giuliani is basically out to get you at this point yes he told you he wants to give you 100 years yes told me he was going to give me double what my father got okay which was 50 yeah were there any rumors of jury tampering or anything of that sort during any of your cases no never heard that never heard that no okay well regardless you won listen we uh I I have 15 codefendants and the jury was out seven or eight days we pulled the jury afterwards and the jury told us the jury Foreman said that they acquitted me in the first hour of the first day and that's how that was a bad case I mean they should never indicted me on it but they gave me all the headaches and went for all that money but uh it was they shouldn't have indicted me then ultimately you did get indicted yes well you got convicted I took a plea you took a plea yes about uh 198 8 was it 85 yeah I think 85 or early ' 86 I got indicted in the eastn district for another big racketeering case okay and uh the underlying acts was really tax fraud and fraud and all that stuff this was the gasoline stuff it had to do with gasoline and some other things yeah fraudulent loans they said that I did and construction stuff a whole bunch of stuff well you got indicted on 14 counts of racketeering yeah and uh counterfeiting uh extortion gasoline boot yeah um counterfeiting I don't even remember what that you know it's one of the counts I don't remember we counted I think what happened is if I remember I had a guy around me that was counterfeiting money okay and he was one of my guys and we went along with it at the time you know he had this process where he I don't know four colors whatever the heck he was doing so they indicted him he was with me so I get indicted okay so in ' 86 you uh you played guilty to two counts correct to a ple deal yes you were sentenced to how long 10 years 10 years but you ended up serving three and a half no I actually served eight on the 10 oh you served eight yeah okay I got out yeah I don't know where they came up with that number I did uh I did five straight and then I was out on parole for about 13 months and then I violated Pearl and went back for another 35 months okay yeah the 35 but okay that that's what I got confused with total of eight okay so you did five years right okay was this the first time you were in prison in prison yes I I've been locked up in jail but prison yes okay so before you get locked up youd make bail you get out correct but now you're actually doing hard time correct so you go into prison as a maid man yes did that matter in these prisons well yeah I mean it carries a certain amount of weight especially the fact that I was so high-profile and that you know it was a large money crime and you know all that so it it has to do with uh you know you kind of raise your profile there and maybe the inmates look up to you and all that kind of stuff you know it doesn't help you that much with the the prison you know the guards and the warden all that stuff but the inmates yeah I mean when you watch Good Fellas and you see like how they're locked up and they're cooking Italian food and they got you know they're all hanging out and they're each cells and so forth was it like that or not really absolute nonsense I mean that was so we all laughed when we saw that I mean look I don't know if that happened in the state 50 years ago it certainly never happened in the feds and it's it's not any anywhere near that that was just a a fantasy okay so you you do your time you get out right and I guess you violate your probation violated parole parole was it tax fraud it was fraud again yeah tax fraud and some other stuff that they accuse me of yeah so you get out and you continue to do crime sort of you know I think the violation was a cheap shot at me you know bottom line is they wanted me to cooperate okay and they brought me in to testify uh they subpoenaed me to testify against a partner of mine I was a boss of the Jersey crew his name was John riggy they brought me into Newark while I was on Parole and a bottom line is I refused to take the witness stand and very shortly after that I was violated okay so in the process of you know they're trying to give you 100 years yeah so as a maid man and they know you're a maid man yeah they're obviously trying to get you to bring down the bosses and cor the whole operation did you cooperate at all or not at all here's what I tried to do I I realized that the life was in trouble everybody I knew was going away forever ever I mean and I was the youngest guy out of everybody guys were getting convicted coming back a 100 years 300 years little vicina 300 years the commission guys 100 years my boss 139 years everybody's going away forever so I said look I'm the youngest guy out of everybody they're going to give me 500 years so I tried to okay I got to do some maneuvering here I tried to make the government think that I was going to clean up my life because I really intended to I mean I wasn't going back to that life I had made a decision if I want to preserve my life and my family I had a young wife I had little kids I have to make a move here cuz I'm going to go away forever so I tried to make the government feel that I was going along you know and they talk to me I tell them things but I would never implicate anybody in a crime so I was basically giving them background information you know uh what is the mob really like well let me tell you but I wouldn't implicate anybody and so when they wanted me to testify I wouldn't do it you know they brought me in on one trial I had to I was subpoenaed to go into it and I really the guy didn't didn't never went to jail but he wasn't a member of that life he was an associate and he was my associate okay and he never did one day in prison so that was fine we had it kind of arranged that way but when they they tried to really force me into testifying against my former Associates made guys I wouldn't do it and they were upset about it so uh I tried to play a game make them think I'm going to be a good guy now leave me alone let me live my life but you know the gig was up at some point in time and that's when I believe they violated me and put me back in that was it you know as made men you guys take an oath of silence yes but how often were maid Men actually testifying against each other and breaking that code and you know when the racketeering law came out and um guys started to see that this isn't a game anymore you get in 20 30 40 50 years the game changed and performance were popping up everywhere guys were flipping I mean Sammy de bull you name it they're flipping and um I'll never forget after I took my plea and I was in custody take my plea uh well actually I had to go down to Florida I had a big racketeering case in Florida the whole gas thing so they transported me to Florida to take my plea down there first and then coming back to Brooklyn to take my plea in the federal case I was surrounded by 15 agents on a plane I'll never forget and now that had taken the plea and it was over the agents were curious they were saying Mike you know what when we were investigating you this time you know what happened is this what really happened so I would tell them and finally I said you know what I'm taking a plea I said I'm tired of beating you guys I said I give you a win that's it you know and I was teasing them and I said look if I went to trial on this case I'd probably beat you again I said but you know I'm throwing in a towel one guy looked at me I'll never forget he was the Postal Inspector and he looked at me and he said to me you wouldn't have beat us this time you became a superstar your guys were lining up to testify against you and it sunk in I never forgot that you know what he was right okay my pner became an informant guys that I knew that were fairly close to me informants so that's what happened to the life made men uh one of them was a maid guy um the others were all my associates so at 87 you're in prison yes and you decide to leave the Columbo family yes now this is not actually Allowed no when you join when you take your Blood Oath you're in it for life her life yes but you decided to break that yes did you inform anybody when you did that no I mean I I uh the way it happened Life Magazine had written a big story about me and um I had done an interview with them only because they contacted the warden I was in prison the reporter did and the warden said that the uh the reporter said if you cooperate with the story it'll be a better story on you and again I'm trying to keep things calm I don't want any more indictments and so I do a an interview with the guy in prison and I tell him look there is no mob I married this California girl I'm you know doing my time I'm going to get out and live my life well a couple of weeks later the story comes out and the warden asks me back into the warden's office he looks at me he says Frances do you have a death wish I what do you talking about and he shows me the article it's a bad article I mean big picture of me double page and on the top quitting the mafia and I'm in with a bunch of mob guys you know and he says I got to lock you down this guy had me doing everything but testifying against everybody it wasn't true so that kind of set a wave going on the street feds come in a little bit later hey you're a dead man anyway words all over the street you know cooperate with us we'll put you in a program so I'm not going in a program I don't want to cooperate in that regard so so I mean that's kind of started this whole wave of thing so I didn't have to tell anybody it kind of happened that way but I did said word to back to my father my father was in jail and I said Dad don't believe what you're here I'm not going to hurt anybody I don't know if they believe me or not honestly okay so you got locked down after that they put me in locked down they put you in PC at that point they put me in administrative detention okay in other words for my own protection they said okay but then you get out yes did they offer you witness protection oh yeah okay so they offered to change your identity move your family to Idaho that type of thing yes and I refused it why is that because I wasn't going to hurt anybody and you know I was leaving life for what I felt with the right reasons you know protect my family you got to understand my family my mother brothers sisters devastated as a result of my father's being in prison and is involved in that life I had a young wife I didn't want to start my relationship with her by destroying our family so I wanted out of the life I wasn't going to I didn't want it by hurting anybody I wasn't mad at anybody I didn't want revenge on anybody just want that out of their life okay but there were hits put out on you at that point yes okay by who my former boss uh Kine pero okay who's passed away March 7th uh yeah he was he took it very personal when I walked away did you ever speak to him after that no he was in prison also okay so you get out you walk away and the whole world knows that you're quitting the mafia because of this article you moved to California yes okay and now you're actually having to watch your back correct and move a lot different yes how paranoid were you during that that era you know I wouldn't call it paranoia I would call it I was very careful you know I'll tell you what happened here you know one of the horrors about of that life you make a mistake your best friend walks you into a room you don't walk out again and I had obviously I knew of those experiences I was a captain and I had an experience similar to that at one point in time where they were trying to boss was trying to you know I think he was trying to shake me up because he heard I was making billions of dollars there was stories out there and I was only turning in millions so you know there was a story written that I was becoming strong enough to break away from the Columbo thought my whole my own family because I had the Russians with me I had a lot of guys on the street there was no truth to it at all but it gets into guy's head so he tried to shake me up a little bit I'll be honest with I walked into a room on I didn't think I was going to walk out I really didn't so you get a you get a call for a sit down yeah and you know that there's some sort of tense situation around it yes so you're walking into a room knowing that you might be murdered in that room yes and you can't bring your guys with you you can't bring bodyguards you got to walk in Solo yeah okay what if you say I'm not going this to this meeting you're in trouble you're in trouble can't say I'm not going uh if you do you you're just about you you put your own hit out on you you know okay but you know people have said to me you know how did you walk into that room you know it's was it heroic and I said no it wasn't heroic it was more robotic I was such a product of that life that I said hey if this is it I guess this is it you know I was scared I'm not going to lie to you you think you're meeting your maker it's it's it's not pleasant but um you know I'm here actually so it worked out but since I had that experience I said nobody's going to walk me into a room they're going to have to work to get me so I move out to California I don't put a house in my name no utilities I don't walk my dog at the same time every morning I don't go to the same restaurant every week I stayed out at clubs I was very disciplined because I knew I couldn't create patterns in my life and I couldn't TW you know couldn't I had to be careful who I had around me but I wasn't paranoid disciplined your own father I guess spoke against you in one of these meetings or something like that well he went along with it from what I was told he went along with the contract on my life and you know wait wait so so everyone knows when when it was announced that you're leaving the Mafia the head of the Columbo family puts out a hit on you and your dad goes along with it yes that's what I was told and I understood the position where my dad was in because if I were to become a major witness against guys would be bad for him because he proposed me into that life it wouldn't look good for him so would he be killed my dad had a lot respect at the time I don't know that he'd been I don't know you know you never know in this life right but I went way out of my way to make sure that that didn't happen I would never put my dad in Jeopardy as a matter of fact I kept telling him don't believe whatever you hear I am not going to be testifying against any of the guys don't believe it right because in the Donnie Brasco story was it Lefty who brought him in yes ended up getting killed Lefty didn't he k no Lefty that was a fallacy in the movie Lefty actually died of cancer I believe Sunny red and sunny black got killed for co-signing yes got killed yeah so if you co-sign a maid man that maid man turnen to a rat could it could be a problem for you be a problem okay would it have gone to that extent with my dad I I don't know because he was a well-respected guy but it could have so you find out your dad coign a hit on you was there any actual attempts um I had two times when the FBI came to me and said there are people here we learned from our informance uh if you don't leave town you're going to be dead by the weekend okay and we had to pack up and move cuz I took it serious you moved out of your home yeah we left for a couple of days and uh I'll never forget it was a holiday weekend and what happened is they had told my wife that I had come home I was on Parole and they were in the uh in the den with her and she was crying and I said why do you you know I got mad I said why you tell my wife this because you may not take this seriously it's serious so I had to pack up with our kids and we left for a couple of days yeah okay but nothing ultimately happened U we I had two kind of close incidents I think but uh two close well when I think there were guys that that I knew about that I had to avoid I knew guys were in town okay and I knew what their purpose was I mean were you carrying a gun during this point and ready to to shoot out if necessary you know if I had to protect myself I would have let's put it that way well you have a younger brother yes who I guess was a drug addict yes and he ended up actually testifying against your father yes so your father went back to prison at the age of 97 yeah well he was 9 yeah 96 97 yeah what did your brother say exactly well he had uh he got himself in some trouble and uh he agreed to cooperate and became an informant and he wired himself up and you know he got my father on tape and he ended up uh testifying against him in trial was was your brother a maid man no so he was just was he an associate well you'd have to call him an associate because he was my brother and my Father's son and but you know he was uh he had he had a a drug problem that just screwed him up his whole life what kind of drugs uh he was on the hard stuff I mean heroin cocaine her yeah Co not heroin cocaine I mean I don't know if he I don't know every combination of drugs he did I'll be honest with you right so your own brother took the stand against your father was he facing a bunch of years himself I don't think so I you know I I don't know what really happened as to why he made the decision to cooperate I knew the government had contacted him and whether he had something pending hanging over his head or he did not for some reason I tell you what I believe this is my case my brother had contracted the HIV virus the medication was very uh expensive and I I kind of think that he did this maybe for his health that if he went into the program the government would take care of his physical problems and they did oh okay yeah I think I can't say that affirmatively but I believe that's that's part of the reason but my brother had a lot of Street trouble and he's always getting himself in trouble because of his drug problem okay is he still alive he is he's still alive okay and he straightened him he straightened himself out how many years did your dad get he got uh eight years at that point at 97 yes he got eight years yes my God government wanted 15 the uh the judge cut it in half okay did you ever talk to your brother after that I did how was that conversation you know look I love my brother you know I don't I don't like what he did um but I understand when drugs take a hold of you it's it's a tough situation unfortunately my sister died of an overdose of drugs and you know I saw my brother throughout his life with drugs so we've had a lot of bad experiences so I understood you know what it did to him I love my brother I felt horrible about what he did uh my father was destroyed over it he couldn't believe it um and I spoke to him he had you know like a Pang of Consciousness about it at the time and and I think he was sincerely regretted what he did you know and he's tried to make up for it I mean you know what could I say I mean look fortunately he the target was my dad and not other people on the street so was for me it was really a Family Matter forget the family it was our family matter and so you know I'm I'm hoping uh I hear he straightened himself out and that he's he's doing okay he's actually working with uh people that had that problem before him and he's trying to straighten it out he's kicked the drug problem so I mean I I wish him well I hope I get to you know one day that we we get to see him again okay does your father father forgive your brother you know um I don't think uh publicly he will because my dad is you know he lives by the code I have to say that about him but my dad loves his children and I think he knew my brother had these severe issues and I think as a father uh that he would forgive my brother again because my brother did it with him and look we had a tough childhood I mean you know we didn't live like normal people we had a rough life and uh it wears on the family I got to tell you this so you talked about the JFK murder uh before um I'm looking I'm trying to think of the timeline that this was before you joined yourself yeah this was during your dad's era correct now you believe that the mafia has something to do with JFK's murder yeah I I believe that firmly because of what I was told and there's no reason for people to mislead or lie to me people as part of that life that had knowledge yeah and what did you what did you hear exactly from what I was told uh it makes sense to me that you know um there was a deal struck with the White House through Joe Kennedy and um it was violated and people on the street were very upset about it okay Joe Kennedy was uh was the father yeah who was in the bootlegging business the liquor bootlegging business correct so he was already dealing with the mafia already yeah and at one point in time um they wanted to kill Joe Kennedy because he was either double dealing or not doing right on the street and I think it was Frank Costello that saved him or agreed not to kill him or whatever um so that's how entrenched he was I mean he knew guys on the street 100% he was the connection there and um there was a deal struck and they didn't live up to it and Bobby Kennedy went even further I mean he started Prosecuting them off people were very upset okay and you think because of that they actually put together a hit on John F Kennedy using um what was the name of the guy that that killed him Oswald yeah Lee Harvey Oswald yeah okay so you think the Italian mafia worked with Lee Harvey Oswald to kill Kennedy yeah now I don't I don't know if they directly worked with uh with Oswald I mean Jack Ruby you know was was certainly associated with us okay right cuz Jack Ruby was one that killed Oswald after he was apprehended he walked up to him and killed him right there in as he was going to a court appearance he was in custody Oswalt right and uh I remember reading about this and I guess his reason was that I guess he was a Jewish guy and he wanted to show the world that Jews were tough which kind of a strange yeah reason I mean look the government will never I mean all these documents that are under seal that would never been released the government is never going to want to admit to the fact that the mob had a hit on the president of the United States and was able to carry it out because that just doesn't look good for them okay and Jack Ruby was a mob guy he was Associated yeah associate absolutely but since he was an Italian he wasn't actually yeah a maid man or anything and you have to be was a made guy he wasn't a guy were there ever non- Italians that were made men no no such that's my knowledge no you had to be your father had to be Italian got it well you know I guess around that time there was also the jedar Hoover thing and I remember jedar Hoover publicly said there's no such thing as the mafia right do you know anything about that yeah the reason for that is uh Hoover used to go into uh one of the reasons I w't say it's the definite reason but he used to frequent some places in Manhattan that were mob controlled one of them was the St Club and um I was told upon good information that he was there with his boyfriend at the time and the store Club at the time was bugged and wired because the owner of the store Club a lot of celebrities would come in there he would wire and Bug these people and actually extort them or have information on them to either keep them coming to the club or whatever else he was doing so he happened to catch Hoover and his boyfriend on tape in the bathroom doing some stuff that they shouldn't have and they held it over Hoover's head and that was one incident that caused Hoover to never admit that there was a mafia right I guess Hoover was also a crossdresser yeah and I heard there was photos and and so for had photos and everything else they knew for sure he would never admit to the existence of the mo because at that point if you were exposed as a homosexual it was the end of life as you know it correct these days it's a little bit different correct you know the the CEO of Apple is gay and out of the closet and no one even B it was unacceptable back then it's acceptable today right and he ended up because of not Prosecuting not going after the mafia he ended up going after the Black Panthers as you know Public Enemy Number One so it's kind of a weird you know the effect was was kind of messed up I think and what happened was uh could have been left at that and everything would have been great but Bobby Kennedy on the other hand picked up the mantle and he started going after the mom right and that wasn't supposed to happen right and JFK gets killed abely right your father was around during the whole Jimmy Hoffa time yeah did he ever deal with Jimmy hafa uh I don't know if he dealt personally with Jimmy hafa no okay but I guess you had said in a previous interview that you have some idea where Jimmy haa yeah is buried or where his body was dumped off yes I guess in the ocean I can tell you that it's wet that's for sure yeah I I have uh look I I know where it came down from I mean look uh the order came from New York even though he had uh you know he was hooked up halfa was with the patriarchal family out of New England but uh the order came down from New York and um upon good information again um I think I I know who the real shooter was still alive in prison yeah yeah and I actually have some tapes um with somebody that was with that person for quite a long time and um they reveal certain things on those tapes okay those tapes have never been released no okay so from everything you know Jimmy haa was killed by the mafia oh 100% 100% 100% cuz you know that's what people assume but it was never actually proven or dis 100% okay cuz he had the mob ties when yes doing all the union activities you're supposed to come home and just you know go off into the sunset and he refused he wanted to position back and couldn't have it well at one point uh you actually I mean you left the mafia but you never renounced the mafia until later on yes when you became a Christian correct okay and I guess you realize that being in the mafia you know you had to treat the boss as a God and you realize that Jesus Christ was someone that you wanted to follow instead well I never thought of it that way you know look I always say this about my former life did I enjoy it when I was in there yeah did I want to be the best possible mob guy could be yes was I committed yes 100% but stepping away I have to be honest it's an evil lifestyle and the reason I say it's evil I'm not calling the guys evil because I was one of them I just happen to be very fortunate blessed actually but I don't know any family of any member of that life that hasn't been totally devastated including my own not my wife and kids but mother father sister brothers so any lifestyle that does that to a family and to people is evil so I renounce it in that regard you know I um were there some good qualities about that life yeah I mean a life that is allegedly built on honor and respect and loyalty do I find that admirable I I honestly do the problem is like anything else like in our government today that principle gets corrupted you know I saw guys die for reasons they shouldn't have died for there's greed there's power struggles it's like anything else but the principle of that life I agreed with I I actually did we're loyal to one another we don't betray one another we never be you know we never uh violate another man's wife mother sister daughter you know we're honest with each other we don't call each other names and we have a sit down or we have a dispute we can't call you each other Liars we have to be respectful so there's a lot of good principle in that life the problem is it gets corrupted you know and um you know I I still look at it the same way you know and and look I know the government comes down on it but you know the government does a lot of things that are that are not too good also because power corrupts I think we see that in our everyday life so again I'm not I'm not glorifying the life in any way I'm just giving you my honest opinion of it you know you were in an organization that was murdered ing people I'm not saying that you had anything to do with any of these murders you know there's no statute of limitations to that so we're not going to talk about that but you were part of a crew of people that was killing people's husbands fathers brothers friends you know was col was the Columbo family into drugs at all or no we were not into drugs we were told if we got involved with drugs we got killed okay so you were doing drugs but extortion that type of thing do you ever look back on that and feel bad over some of the things you were involved in and feel like you have to atone to those you know for those things you know I have regrets for things that I've done in that life but I want you to understand everybody talks about murder all the time it's the most serious thing and it is that people attribute to the to the evil of that life but here here's the way we looked at it whether right or wrong when we come into that life we take an oath and at that time we're told if we violate the oath we could pay for it with our lives and your best friend might be called upon because the life becomes before anything now we weren't random Killers murder was taken extremely seriously it could only be ordered by the boss there was always discussion about it and you know we weren't doing driveby shootings we weren't just randomly killing people you know it was confined to us and when I say us it was we that knew that we could pay the price if we made a mistake or we did something wrong now what I said before is that I saw people die for I don't think they should have because the life gets corrupted but I always want to say this we weren't random Killers we didn't go around murdering people it was taken very seriously and I think that's a wrap you know you see all of these wars well who we killing we're killing each other you know we're not going out on the street and killing people now you know once in a while I've heard you know an innocent person got killed okay 100% wrong should never happen none of this should happen but it does but I I always try to make it clear we killed each other and we knew what we were getting into when I walked away I knew I could pay for this with my life cuz that's the oath that I took so we understand that I mean back then when you were doing it they did not have the kind of surveillance they have these days you know you you know you had clunky you know if you had a recording device it was a nagra it was a yeah you could you could feel it on some under somebody's shirt there weren't cameras on every signpost there were satellites there there were no cell phones that you could triangulate that's right these days being a criminal seems a lot harder absolutely saying that does the mafia still exist in 2019 the mob still exists and I don't believe it'll go away in my lifetime um these guys are very resourceful it's not anywhere near what it was at one point in time because I have to say the government in the 80s did a good job they took the union power away for the most part um you know they took a lot of contacts that we had uh Power uh bases that we had they took it away racketeering act uh bail Reform Act you know uh you know all of this stuff sentencing Reform Act I mean it really really made a dent in that lifestyle but it's not going away certainly not New York Chicago places where it's a stronghold well you said out of all the movies out there good fellas in Donnie Brasco those the most authentic mafia movies I would say Good Fellas yeah fairly accurate I knew all those guys um it was depicted well Donnie Brasco like I said they took dramatic Liberty there but it was it was pretty accurate casino is actually my favorite movie out of I like Casino C was but not accurate not really not really and you said Sopranos is completely inaccurate if a my boss was ever visiting a psychiatrist he'd be in the trunk of his car by the end of the week along with the psychiatrist I'll tell you what I think the best I'll tell you what I think the best mob movie one of the best it's it's not as notable because it it wasn't a theatrical release but the HBO movie Gotti where amand desanti played Gotti I thought that was brilliantly done extremely it was about as accurate a movie as you're going to see on that life certainly on that story I don't know if you ever seen it but if you haven't go on HBO go and watch it it was great great movie everybody was was terrific in that movie well there's actually a movie about your life uh documentary documentary yeah right U we're in talks now to make a movie I've always been kind of resistant of it but maybe timing is right now okay and you've done a bunch of books as well yes you know as the only high ranking member of one of the five families who's out there talking about it writing books about it doing documentaries about it any sort of backlash from any of your former assciates or or people who are currently I mean does the Columbo family still exist number one it does yes it does yes so how does the Columbo family feel about you right now you know bottom line is I never put anybody in prison and they knew that that's not what I was about do they like the fact that I walked away no did I like the fact that I'm talking about it no the people say oh he's a rat he's this he's that you get that section of people that do that you know half the people that talk about rats they don't even know what a rat is or really what what it's all about they just try to talk and act tough um but there are a lot of people that support what I've done I've never had a runin in with anybody nobody's ever approached me directly and said hey this and that yeah sometimes online people will make a remark that doesn't bother me okay um again bottom line is I never hurt anybody and that was very significant to everybody okay are you familiar with the tekashi 69 case that's going on right now not really no it's a rapper out of New York with rainbow hair I know who he is but I don't know the care well he he got arrested I guess him and his whole crew got arrested under the and uh he had nine nine charges against him and he is currently you know we actually had his guilty plea paperwork where he is agreeing to cooperate with all law enforcements against all of his codefendants wow some of these codefendants were actually you know like some of the interesting things about this case is there was a video of him essentially putting a hit out on somebody telling a guy I I'll I'll give you 20 or 30,000 to go handle that and then that guy ends up getting shot at shortly afterwards he's he ended up testifying against that guy as well wow and the government you know based on the paperwork is that if he completely cooperates they're not going to prosecute on all nine charges do you see this type of thing happen absolutely I mean look you know I got to be honest with you let's take Gotti's case and let's take Sammy the bull yeah Samy admitted to 19 murders he admitted to 19 murders right in my view how do you give a guy that is basically a Serial murderer by his own admission how do you give him a pass right because he testified against John Gotti who had a bigger name who they wanted to get who beat them a couple of times but look John John Gotti in my opinion on his worst day was a as good a better a guy than Sammy the bull Sammy just wasn't as flamboyant he didn't thumb his nose in the government's face so how does a a civilized government make a deal with a guy like that and put him back on the street what happens when he comes out goes into an ecstasy ring and starts easy he got caught with a drug ring yeah yeah I mean how do you justify that and I got I'm not nothing personal against Sammy at all did you know Sammy yeah nothing personal but how does the government take Sammy or anybody else how does the government make a deal with somebody like that and put him back out on the street go get him F fight the case do whatever but to make the kind of deals that they're making you know I mean it doesn't work for me I'm sorry right so Sammy ultimately I just looked it up in 2002 he convicted of the drug ring M and given uh 15 15 to 17 years he was released in he just got out about a year just got out in 2017 so he's still out there he's 74 years old yeah did is surpris you when he uh turned on everybody like that you know yes and no because guys were starting to flip left and right and I said well there's just another one going down it's like I said you know nobody wants to do 100 years in prison I don't care who they are unless you're Sunny Frances my dad who will do a thousand years before he would cooperate and he's the only guy I know that I can say without any shadow of a doubt that my dad would never ever ever cooperate well I mean that's basically what happened you know with the tekashi situation is that they wanted the other guys who are more hardened criminals this guy was kind of young I think he was like 20 years old or 19 years old the other guys actually had long criminal records and were like the quote unquote real gangsters of that crew so they're using him to put everybody away but it's a very strange situation because a lot of them were doing crimes on this guy's behalf to work out his various rap beefs and so forth and then all I got to tell you I speak to a lot of young people you know it's part of the ministry that I have and I I speak to gang Bankers all the time I go into detention centers and I tell them straight out let me give you some good advice if you want to be a criminal you want to stay on the street you're going to do something do it alone that's it that's itan nobody can snitch on you later on I said because your best friend you know that's going to go to war with you during your criminal activity watch what happens when they get him in the room alone they say hey you know what you either can go away the rest of your life for the next 40 50 years because you don't get parole anymore you're doing 85% get 50 you're doing 40 and change okay either that or talk to us we'll help you out we'll give you a new identity that guy's going away forever anyway don't worry about it and at least you'll preserve your life see how friendly he is with you at that point right well I interviewed Freeway Ricky Ross who was one of the biggest drug dealers on the west coast his plug you know his drug connect ended up being an informant and took the stand and helped him to get a life sentence mhm and when I asked him what would happen if if this guy walked in L Blandon I think was the guy's name he said absolutely nothing what would happen if he walked in the room right now oh nothing nothing I have absolutely nothing against him really no wasn't his fault see way I look at it is first of all I made the mistake of getting into the drug business that was my first mistake M my next mistake was I went back into the drug business after I say I quit yeah so what he did is he only did what people do in the drug business they tell they set you up and for somebody to go into the drug business and not understand that which I was in the drug business and didn't understand it um but I came to grips with it is that really the reality of a life of crime from your point of view that telling and snitching is just part of it so if you're going to get get into it just realize that's what it is I I believe so you know had a similar circumstances the fellow that snitched on me was my partner in the gas business we created the scheme together he was uh he was 6'4 almost 500 lb huge guy we worked together for seven years we never had a problem between us we got very close my kids called him Uncle Larry his kids called me uncle Michael our wives knew each other we were close when he snitched you know people told me on the street listen we'll take care of this for you or you can take care but the guy's got to go and I said no it's okay I said I knew at some point time he might be weak I understood what what I was up against I said I know his wife and kids I mean you know I'll fight him in court and so that's how I felt too and you know he ended up he ended up testifying against me that's the reason I went to jail basically in the case and what happened with him okay they let him out he goes back into the gas business in Texas he gets caught puts his whole family in trouble he got 20 years and put him back in jail so things you know but it's it's part of the business you know what's going to happen you don't want it to happen you try to avoid it you try to be careful but it's going to happen so you get out you know and you start writing books and doing speak engagements and so forth um and that's essentially supporting that was supporting you in in good part yeah yeah were you getting regular jobs nineo fives or no no not your thing I haven't had a reg job since I worked on a World Trade Center in the summer of uh when I was in high school I was a union guy my dad got me a job okay um in 2010 you busted for writing bad checks correct um can you talk about that at all first of all was spune and it was thrown away I had a uh um an incident I would say with my former manager and uh I fired him and he got upset and he had two checks that I had given him that I was sto stopping payment on and he said that I bounced the checks on them they locked me on a uh I was getting off a plane in Tennessee CU that's where it happened and they locked me up okay and after we talked about it uh was let loose and they expunged the case and that was the end of it and that was the only time that you dealt with police since you got out since well just period since you got out out out of prison so you've gone completely legit yeah was that hard listen you know um when I when I got out of the life and I came to Faith I didn't get a labotomy I don't forget stuff I did on the street I try to avoid certain things that I know that I might have a tendency to get in trouble with so I got people around me that keep me accountable so yeah in a way in a way it's tough you're always in a little bit of a battle but you know you got to surround yourself with the right people and I fortunately have a very prolific speaking faith-based career and so I'm always in the right environment you know I'm writing books they're doing movies on my life the whole bit so I mean I you know I have every inclination to stay straight and uh I don't want to put my family through any more headaches right but you go from having a private plane 8,000 foot house helicopters millions of dollars and so forth to you know I'm not sure what your lifestyle is now but I'm pretty sure it's not that it's not that but remember in in the interim uh I spent 8 years in prison 29 months and 7 days in the hole I was in solitary for almost three years wow yeah they kept me in lockdown and I got to tell you that's not easy you know regardless of what anybody says we weren't meant to be solo cre we were meant to be social and I when the lights went out at night you heard a lot of guys moaning and groaning it was a tough situation so I mean I know what it is to hit rock bottom because I was there for a long time and uh you know so when I came out it was yeah I mean look I live decently now I don't don't have any complaints but it'll never be to where it was before so you deal with it you know well you've actually said that if you had a chance to do it all over again you would well I've said that I don't know if I believe that now you know there's certain parts of it that maybe I you know I'd like to go back for a limited amount of time maybe and and just have that experience again but that'll never happen yeah I appreciate you sharing your story um I think it's a very unique story from someone that came from your position because no one else has really been able to tell it from a firsthand perspective before well I appreciate that and uh you know I've been very fortunate and very blessed just to be here be able to speak to you so um appreciate it yep and you have seven children I have seven children I have six grandchildren yeah so I got a good crew your wife is here in the other room also my wife been married 35 years and if it wasn't for her I wouldn't be here if I don't meet her and and change my life style I need to be dead or in prison so well you know I think that everyone who's watching this you know who uh you know has been involved in crime and you know to one degree or another or has been involved with family who's been involved in crime like this is a very rare case of someone that actually gets to ride off into the sunset without doing a 100 years without being murdered um you know without falling to drugs at the end or committing suicide or something sort so I think it's very much a rarity but you know with this opportunity you're actually telling the story and you know not glamorizing it I think that's very important yeah well look I want to be clear in that I don't glamorize my former life and I certainly you know a big part of what I do now is discouraging these young people from continuing in a life of crime or getting involved in it in the first place so because it's a destructive path in life and um it just makes no sense yeah and I think these days like I said with cell phones and cameras everywhere and and so forth well look when this guy C got killed you know the alleged boss of the geneves family I mean within two days they knew everything because there's cameras all over the streets yeah that a one thumb print on a license plate I mean yeah it's it's amazing I mean you you you how do you commit a crime today and not get caught I don't know right and the guy that killed him it wasn't even Mafia related it was some guy that I guess liked a girl that was hanging out with him and but that that's the story is there more to it if there is we'll find out but the guy seems a little loony to me actually from what I'm reading and from what I heard so who knows right Whitey Bulger he ends up getting killed yeah I guess his first day in general population or something of that I'll be honest with you I don't know how that happened because I'll tell you I'll tell you a quick story Henry Hill was on separation with me he was on separation with a lot of guys he was in the witness protection program but he was in prison well by mistake they put him in terminal Island in in uh general population where I was and we happen to connect in there now there was a you know there was a shoot on I mean if Henry anybody of us would have find him we're supposed to take him out so by mistake they put him in the same prison where I was in general population when he was on separation so the government makes mistakes sometimes I firmly believe they made a mistake Whitey so that was just a yeah it happens but that was a fatal mistake obviously how do you put him in there the guy is a known snitch you know we have people in every prison almost you know how the heck do you put him in there right CU I guess they cut out his tongue or his eyes or yeah you know okay so when Henry Hill who was you know the character in Goodfellas you know the main guy he end up turning against everybody yes and going into um witness protection yes later on but you actually with him in prison at one point yeah and as soon as he saw me he ran and he pced up he put himself in protective custody right away were you supposed to kill him in that situation well the word was out if we saw Henry we knew what he did yeah we supposed to take him out even though he wasn't part of he wasn't telling on your family no but you know I mean I knew poly varo well I knew Jimmy Burke well I mean I knew all those guys so that's you're expected to do something you know you can't say oh he's here and we're just going to P around with him you know okay so would you have try to kill him if G the opportunity no no no that wasn't your thing no and I I knew Henry pretty well too you know so no I mean when I seen him I said oh man what is he doing here you know I went back to my cell I'll tell you what happened the lieutenant called me about an hour later I got called into the Lieutenant's office and he said to me Mike what happened on the yard today I said what are you talking about he's Mike who did you see on the yard I said I didn't see anybody he said Mike you got to be honest with me because we're shipping you out of here now terminal Island was an hour from my house I was getting visits I said what do you mean you're shipping me out I said hey you know all right I saw Henry I said ship him out don't ship me out he said well he already PCD up Lieutenant liked me fortunately so they did ship him out so Henry Hill is still around no he's dead oh he's dead yeah okay he lived out here for a long time but he's dead okay did he stay in PC or no I mean stay in uh protect in uh witness protection or no well when he got out he kept getting in trouble so they threw him out of the program from what I understand yeah hry is a poor soul he was he was yeah man Crazy Life uh you know and I always say this in today's society man there's so many ways to make legal money yes you know from Uber to legi you know to to being a social media influencer to doing whatever man doing music on your own to starting your own business there's lots of ways to do it that doesn't involve prison time doesn't involve any murders or shootings or stabbings agreed you know and honestly that's always the best approach for anyone watching this I totally agree I discourage anybody from life on the street no doubt well Michael man I appreciate you telling your story thank you till next time okay peace
