Vaush Calls Out Destiny For PhilosophyTube Tweets | DEBATE

a lot of social pressure in the online socialist community about hiding one's income because being poor is an aesthetic but that's not the same as like it being an attempt to trick or deceive people you know these are not the same thing when your aesthetic is literally disguised like some property of yourself how is that not a trick you don't think that this person is like making it sound like they need to get like out of paying rent due to the pandemic ignoring the fact that they're literally doing this to somebody that is probably making far less money than they do um i don't necessarily have an issue with people calling for a rent strike and using collective languages that's not what we're talking about i do think that it's bad that they hide their income though i think that's the big definer here i think that if you show your income then i think that's totally this is not the what i'm saying is is she is making it sound like she literally like won't be paying rent due to the pandemic ignoring the fact that the landlord makes less than them i would say that this is a trick into making somebody think that they're on their side this is what i'm referring to i think that my first statement is what wouldn't she be on their side i mean she's a lefty what do you mean on is she not as in has the same struggles has the same class problems has the same like problem affording rent when that's not the case there is definitely an implication here that they can't afford their rent that i do find a bit unsavory this is why i really wish they would show their income but the general like we should do x language i think is perfectly acceptable stop listen to destiny's language in this tweet oh no destiny's language in a tweet oh no i've actually been pretty nice i haven't [ __ ] [ __ ] on anybody hardcore i've just been doing my normal fights okay i think i've been pretty nice on twitter given how i used to be okay a new man my friend is i mean of course that's what i mean to say online socialists don't want you to know how much money they make because they want to constantly trick you into thinking they're on your side this is an incredibly stupid and reductivist take no i actually defend that to the death i think i even give two or three examples in that twitter thread about it real reason why a lot of online socialists hide their patreon income is because their audiences will get super [ __ ] angry with them if they show it okay if imagine thinking your audience is ready for the socialist revolution when your audience can't even handle knowing how much money you make it's in their material interest not to show it the idea that it's part of this like duplicitous scheme just isn't borne out uh uh um contra points natalie hides her income on patreon has natalie ever tried to like disguise herself as like one of the pros natalie no but i explicitly don't you wait can somebody link my twitter thread i explicitly didn't even list natalie as a part i don't think hundred points has ever done that fake proletariat [ __ ] he's usually pretty forthcoming about the fact that she's what there are more examples i just can't think of them off the top of my head but i'm like my problem are when when people pretend that they're poor to be one of you so that they can pretend they're fighting alongside with you that triggers the [ __ ] out of me so one example i had of this is brianna being like i'm an unemployed journalist talking about a presidential candidate it saddens me that you took time to weigh in on this defending pizza failures capture black votes well he enjoys support from the dem establishment anyways gotta get back to my racist mentions like i don't know when i don't know what there was another one where she talked about like um was it either her co-host talked about like um student loans and like but i think both of these people like [ __ ] harvard grads or some [ __ ] and it's like come on dude really and then um and then there's philosophy tube um where she posted something about like not paying rent and she's like i'm not gonna pay rent [ __ ] that [ __ ] like i'm not gonna pay it's like dude you probably make like 15 times more than your [ __ ] landlord why why are you doing this this is such a version signal [ __ ] cringe hold on um like at all and she's the largest bread tuber like flat out period um like there's a you don't know if they're doing it for themselves or the other tenants they haven't otherwise pretended to be poor what do you if that was true then why should why wouldn't she just say like hey like first of all why wouldn't she just [ __ ] cover the rent if she really wanted to be a good person um but secondly why wouldn't she just say this is something you can post on why would she say that she was going down to [ __ ] do it then stupid a lot of social pressure in the online socialist community about hiding one's income because being poor is an aesthetic but that's not the same as like it being an attempt to trick or deceive people you know these are not the same thing when your aesthetic is literally disguised like some [ __ ] property of yourself how is that not a trick by definition they're not they're just not um their rhetoric is much more effective when they can start their calls to action with we need to instead of you need to despite them never actually doing anything to further anyone's material conditions outside their own this is incredibly [ __ ] stupid okay first of all if you're an online content creator the size of philosophy tube you're reaching more people than your average [ __ ] television series okay just in terms of not major hbo stuff but i'm not actually sure if that's true but okay in terms of the actual number of people who you reach like day to day with your content that is doing stuff okay propagating political ideology is part of the work i don't know what you mean by furthering anyone's material conditions behind so you know what i view life a little bit differently than a lot of other people and i acknowledge that i don't give anybody credit for for like i don't give anybody credit when what message they're trying to spread also coincidentally gets them a [ __ ] ton of money like i can still evaluate you based on like the the the wellness of your message or like how logically consistent whatever it is like i make money doing what i do right like if somebody's doing something like that that's cool but i'm pretty sure if you go back and you ever listen to me ever say a single time they're like oh yeah like i think i do some good i'm pretty sure i always quality that but like i get paid a lot to do it as well right like um i don't know i think that like there is a lot of things that you can do to further your messages and your cause and when the only things you ever do just happen to be the things that make you the most amount of money it makes me feel like the important thing isn't really like furthering your cause makes you like the important thing is just making the most amount of money so for instance like imagine if somebody never talked to any congressional candidates ever but as soon as like really popular ones showed up on twitter now they were like thirsty as [ __ ] for those people's attention like that would be where it's like okay well do you really care about like spreading like a particular message or you're just clout chasing right like i i i think that there is like a difference between some of these things besides your own what a weak attempt at gesturing at hypocrisy on the part of the left what a stupid [ __ ] attempt jesus [ __ ] i feel like i'm i still feel like i'm watching a clone of myself but now i disagree with it so now i hate it is that that's how you guys feel when you disagree with my attack on titan takes right christ um i it hurts me personally to see like but i guess like this is the problem that leftists have historically huh these are the evil moralists of the world is leftist one this is why um che guevara was so [ __ ] based right is that leftists want to do something work for the people blah blah blah but as soon as they get a little bit of power they just want all of it and they're like yeah [ __ ] that [ __ ] give me the [ __ ] power homie [ __ ] all that [ __ ] and i guess that's why arguably che guevara was so based right because he would do like a revolution and he'd be like all right i'm bouncing up out of here i'm gonna go do another one peace um yeah but i guess it hurts to see so many like radical lefty people get money i mean they don't [ __ ] do anything with it here's a question can you think of a single lefty on the internet that has been as politically effective as nick fuentes and nick fuentes is banned off of like 20 different [ __ ] platforms and he's got people on the [ __ ] streets gripers that are going to [ __ ] conferences with charlie kirk like people that are getting like mainstream headlines right like where the [ __ ] are the lefties at for this type of [ __ ] right like what the [ __ ] and the lefties have so much more ability to raise money because they are corporate safe and they're on all of these platforms like they can make so much more and mobilize so much more they have so much more mainstream support and they're completely and totally ineffective it's so hilarious lefties will get on twitter and complain that democrats are ineffective and can't do anything meanwhile lefties can't even win office like they're worthless and even outside of office they can't do anything like even brianna is only famous because she's piggybacking off of her reputation from bernie sanders like is that what socialism is socialism is when you make a certain amount of money on patreon you then redistribute that money to your followers what does that mean i guess like the way that i would view it is that like i i think that if there are things that are important in your life i feel like your money should go to that even if it hurts a little bit that's how i live my life right um or i'd like to think i do um like i pay for my i pay my child support i pay for my kid's house and i pay for a vehicle for his mom it's like 600 bucks a month she's a [ __ ] jeep cherokee okay because these are things that i think are important in my life um sometimes i'll take hits to my content to do things that i think are politically important so for instance all the congressional candidate interviews that we did um and then i'll and then as a recently i've tried to sink like some real life money um into like some political work on the ground because i think that's important if you're somebody that believes i in radically changing a system oh i also pay everybody that works with me very well if you've ever done work for me before you've generally gotten paid very well too because i think that's important because i if you work with me i want you to have a good experience and because i make a lot of money i paid 5 000 for like 11 songs for dnd um i pay people for my merch work i paid my editor pretty well like i pay everybody like i pay out like decent wait hold on i i take the l rhetorical and so many things but i'm pushing back more 2021. you know like i always i kind of made fun of the fact that i took the ppp loans for instance i'm like oh like maybe people like me don't need them because i could have gotten by without the pvp loan but you know what i realize now why some people make fun of me so hardcore for it and it's because they don't actually pay anybody to do anything um for the first two months of this year so far um i've paid out about thirty three thousand six hundred dollars in wages to other people and i haven't paid my youtube guy uh his second payment yet um because i don't have money my paypal right now so i if i would have paid him i would have paid out about like 45 000 i think in wages like two and a half months into the year right but like i think that it's important that if i make money that i'm not just going yes this year yes um i think it is important like if i make money that i should be like funneling this to like other people because i i don't know that's an important value to me like why would i just sit here and hoard it when like other people can get work and i can grow my stuff and other people can do well like so like i don't know when i see um so when i see somebody that's going to sit here and say um when i see somebody that's going to sit here and talk about how socialism and the revolution and we need to help and empower people and blah blah blah wow that's awesome like what do you do well i get the message out on my youtube channel where i run advertisements where i get sponsors or i have a patreon to pay for every single episode it's like okay um like it seems like you could do something like anything and the funny thing is is that like people will counter you with that dumb ass comic over and over again they'll come up like oh well just because i live in a society doesn't mean i can't be written and they'll have the the guy popping up and it's like damn like if you're gonna go that hardcore like why can't bezos just use that comic when you guys make fun of him right like what's wrong with bezos being a billionaire or whatever right like he just he lives in a capital society and he participates in it maybe bezos is a socialist but like he lives in a society just like you do so he can't do anything about it right like um i don't know man that just seems that seems that just seems crazy to me um how do you find your saved reddit posts like i see stuff like this and it's crazy to me so chat i recently saw something that was funny um and i'm gonna do it i'm gonna do it two things can i just say a couple things i uh i know everybody's been ignoring this [ __ ] that's not a hold on i'm sorry real quick don't be insane there's obviously a difference in scale besides bezos offshores taxes and violates rights of his workers through union repression any crime that you can levy at bezos you can levy at a huge streamer i don't know if you know this my dude but when you work for twitch it's owned by amazon like this platform is subsidized by all of that [ __ ] slave labor that you think is so [ __ ] horrible like you're on this platform like you can sit here and pretend that like well technically technically streaming's not exploitation because nobody else i'm not profiting off of anybody else's labor yeah you are you dumb [ __ ] you saying that you're not profiting off of somebody else's labor it's like a libertarian saying they don't want to pay taxes because they're not going to get anything out of it and they ignore all of the costs of society that have gone into like making like their life possible right like the only reason why twitch works as a platform is because you're working off the labor of so many other people even if you don't directly employ them you're benefiting from that labor like what are you talking about like oh this clip though happy little d7 but now to be fair obviously there's gonna be like a different level of responsibility between like um between maybe bezos and somebody that streams on twitch but like i don't know man when i see people making like hundreds of thousands of dollars a year calling for revolution and they just do nothing with their money like i don't know it makes me wonder like do you actually do you actually believe in anything you say destiny sure but where else can they promote their ideology in a sense utilizing twitch to create such a society can do more to benefit um twitch workers dog you just made the iphone meme wait what i don't know what the iphone meme is i don't know what you're saying um but like what i don't know why can't you like start up a co-op why can't socialists earn big bucks i've never said that i never said that ever wait how are you so [ __ ] brain dead i've talked to you i know you're not that [ __ ] stupid you you must be emotional over the topic and it's impairing your ability to think philosophy to youtube um you can make money but if all you do as a socialist is make money and then hoard it and do nothing with it what the [ __ ] is wrong with you what are you doing do you not like it feels like like it feels like you don't i don't know and this is what i've said before and i understand here that i'm i view things a little bit differently than the average person i understand that i just don't care what people say at all i do not care what somebody says they believe in i don't care what somebody says that they think about some things all i care about is how people act because a lot of people will talk a lot of [ __ ] but when it's actually time to step up and do something or to act in a certain way everything crumbles and they are a completely different person right now there are no cooperatively owned streaming platforms on the same scale as twitch sure i'm not saying you have to be in a co-op streaming platform i'm just saying like it feels like you should do something to further a cause like discuss socialism with me it just seems to me that you are that you were criticizing lefties for making money i don't think any reasonable person would come away thinking that i believe that you can't possibly think that did you put large amounts of money into caucuses into causes prior to the georgia canvassing genuinely curious i don't know no but i don't really have like [ __ ] tons of disposable income ever i have way less money than people think i do because i've always carried like a decent amount of expenses with me because rachel um rachel and nathan like eat up a lot of like my extra money um and then where does the and then and then living in california has been expensive um and then i pay work people to do work and [ __ ] like i have like a fair amount i've always carried a fair amount of expenses um oh yeah like at my house and everything too but like because i'm seeing like people when i see people with like no kids no family single person living in an apartment making like a quarter million dollar a month it's like [ __ ] like where the [ __ ] does all your money go like i know what i'm saying yeah i recently saw something that was funny um and i'm gonna do it i'm gonna do it two things try to say a couple things i i know everybody's been ignoring this [ __ ] that's not a a popular dsim but as a former campaign worker i'm going to say something about the georgia canvassing um if i had gotten that amount of money um it would have been national news i would have hired three oregon professional organizers they would have had absolutely blow out um turnout you would have hired three professional organizers for twenty thousand dollars for two months of work and also let's say let's say for instance i'll say you could do this you are sitting on almost 5 000 subs you're a single guy why not [ __ ] do it what do you spend your money on like you have this money why are you pretending like you don't i think most revolutionary people understand that revolution isn't a feasible way to achieve the end goal of social ideology on this subject i think streamers are kind of afraid or passive mix on the process of achieving with an alternative model the business but like why not just do why not do anything i don't know man i feel like if i sat around i feel like if i sat around with some socialist um streamers i feel like i could think of some ways that we could spend our money to like champion a car maybe we could find like maybe we could find like a socialist mayor somewhere and support him or like some socialist like state representative or maybe we could like um do you consider donating to charity to act out your immorality yeah i mean i guess you can a little bit but like i mean nobody really donates to charity that much no streamer people do or whatever um i don't know why it's assumed that within socialism everyone is forced to do anything in their power to further their ideology they're doing enough promoting their ideology in the first place to use their money in the best way possible would be better but it doesn't mean not doing so as hypocritical or against their moral okay i i yeah i guess it's fair i guess um what would be the difference then between a socialist that believes in their causes and a grifter i'm curious because we because under what you're saying you're allowing anybody that's a grifter to come in and get rich as a socialist like if they wanted to because you don't expect them to actually do anything to like further any clauses except for to just make youtube videos like what's the difference at that point then between like somebody that you follow that is like a like i don't know it just seems that seems crazy to me the problem is that being successful as a content creator has nothing to do with furthering an ideological cause why not you don't think that you don't think that if you're successful you shouldn't try to like use that to uplift other people is that not like uh you don't believe in that if that feels to me like something that you should want to do especially if you especially if you're a socialist right like socialism implies a lot more than just like some [ __ ] memes or mode of production like it usually carries a lot of like economic or not economics usually carries like a lot of like ethical or moral consideration behind it as well it seems weird that like you could live as like an ultra-rich socialist and do nothing with your money that just seems crazy to me but i don't know would you talk to vash about this it seems like you're one of the only commentators on the left that takes it serious enough it could be interesting um i don't know it if he wants to i guess but i always thought that pocket watching is never a good idea i'm not talking about obsessed like i hate this conversation i hate this conversation because like nobody can like have this conversation in a reasonable manner everybody's just like immediately like you don't need to know much [ __ ] or like everybody just like goes crazy all i'm saying and this is like a very very very basic thing like if you're like a good human being you should do this if you have the means to do so you should be living the values that you preach if you do not live the values that you preach you mean nothing as a person you're worthless you're an absolute garbage human being or that's how i view you at least and i think that's how society should view you if you preach some principle all day long and you don't live that value then you should just shut the [ __ ] up and and go go go do it or go do something else like don't tell anybody anything because your word means nothing do you literally want people to advocate for their ideas more than just sending the computer saying the same [ __ ] yeah sure just do something at what point would it be enough just donating like five thousand dollars how many families going to do canvassing or donating to your substitute bread can't you just let these people grip obviously they operate in a market that is i'm just saying do something i'm just saying do something right so in terms of like so in terms of like what i'm doing now i think it would be really cool well i already think it's really cool people look back on me and it's like oh well what did you do to further something you believed in it's like oh like i mobilized my fan like i tried to interview like congress people i did like a lot of debates i tried to go on talk shows um i mobilized people to go canvas in georgia for send out runoffs like um and now i'm doing this thing in omaha for my like these are things that are important to me um not just like running my channels and making lots of money right because well i mean that could be important but that's also just like that's [ __ ] i'm gonna do anyway because i wanna [ __ ] make money right but i feel like it's crazy that there are so many ultra there are so many ultra wealthy people that are our left-leaning content creators like well what did you do to further your cause and it's like well i still make youtube videos and stream and that furthers my cause they also all coincidentally make me very wealthy but like i don't know like it just seems like somebody in chad said kyle kalinski loves his values you know what i [ __ ] hate kyle kolinsky but actually yeah him and um him and chank made the justice stems right the focus on realness and all that betting against people that he considers fake even if it makes the money oh well the reason why the reason why i criticize mitch jones is because like obsessing over whether or not streamers are real is silly because they're [ __ ] streamers there's entertainers but i would classify people that call themselves socialists and then go online and do like youtube which like i think that's like a little bit different right my understandings have lost food credits 100 people at the end of our videos because it's not applied to her as well i already lots of expenses no philosophy tube does not have a lot of expenses the reason why i know that is because when she did her big write up about all of her expenses she didn't list a single dollar amount when you don't say how much money you're making it's because you don't want people to know how much money you're making and that's probably because you think that you're making more than you should be that's that's my guess um and i i feel pretty confident about that hunch uh hutch i i would bet money on that that's probably what's going on but there's a reason why philosophy tube did her whole write up on her budget and her expenses and everything and she didn't include a single number anywhere like why isn't making youtube vid streaming enough because like if i think that the measure of who you are i think the measure of your character is whether or not you can step out and do something that makes you uncomfortable or something that at least requires a little bit more effort than just like making money off of things right like i don't know does it does it seem weird that like all of your advocacy coincidentally makes you rich like you don't think that seems a little maybe maybe it doesn't to some people no wait hold on um i'm being way too meek about this let me because i'm an adult okay let me let me let me re-tune my rhetoric here okay the only thing that matters is what you do and how you act and if every single way that you help people is also self-serving then it means that you're probably more concerned with enriching yourself than you are with promoting any of the ideals that you claim to be that's it that's what i'm saying should advocacy be done for free i think providing innocent will be fine right yeah it can be sure can't you say that any kind of anti-capitalist art is grifting the artist isn't putting that money into social activism i'm not saying like again please listen to what i'm saying and stop putting so many other weird thoughts on it i'm not saying it's wrong for a socialist to make money or that they have to donate every dollar until they're living in poverty or that they have like i'm just saying like where does the money go like can't like if i look at people like hassan is making millions right or mike from pa is making a good six figure now um or you know philosophy tube is making a lot of money um the brianna person's making a lot 35 000 an episode um the um not come town what was that other um chapeau trap house is making hundreds of thousands like do these people have like any lefty projects at all to show for any of this like or is it really every dollar that you earn and then every activity that you do all just goes towards like enriching yourself i i don't know that just makes me wonder um but i unblock watch he wants to message me and do it so that kind of makes sense though if you spend all your thoughts thinking it is the job um of the government to meet the needs of the press et cetera a byproduct is going to be a thought gap between your own money and the governments they've probably never even considered that there might be any overlap that sounds like a very capitalist take on things right do you have these thoughts before you got active yourself and weren't able to say them or do you only think of them after destiny i like to think that i live my life by my principles but i'm pretty sure i have throughout like i've tried to do that for my entire life it's not just a matter of being a streamer either it could be a matter of like your personal life as well but i think the easy example's not having a bush right yeah but i don't like to bring that up because it sounds really shitty but yeah but yeah obviously having nathan was was probably the most difficult decision in my entire life but like i guess like that's the difference in terms of like how i view myself it's kind of like i feel like a lot of like streamers can be shameless like people just go out and have no values whatsoever and my biggest thought at the time was that like if i went through and i had an abortion after being pro-life for so long i couldn't i couldn't have like taken myself seriously at all like i could have never because it's because in my mind that's another one of those like oh well wow you were pro-life your whole life and now you have an accidental pregnancy with an ex-girlfriend that you guys [ __ ] hate each other uh-huh now you wanna get an abortion wow how convenient it's like wait well [ __ ] if i got an abortion now like i my word literally means nothing why would i say anything to anybody if when it when it's time for me to make a difficult decision i can't do it right so it's all about optics it's not about optics man do you people have no principles in your lives at all how wait i don't understand you guys you guys kill me i don't know i don't know what exists i don't know how you guys view yourselves as like human beings like if i talk about something here like i live what i talk about like and you should live with utah i don't know if it's an american thing or whatever where the [ __ ] you people are coming from but like god damn it's like i feel like people have no [ __ ] integrity like jesus do you think rachel would have aborted if you put your voice of course she asked me what i wanted to do do you have any personal stories we lived by the morals you preached i remember that one story about your car getting jacked really how to get your point across um i it feels weird to tell stories of myself being a good person that sounds like super [ __ ] circle jerky um it's uncomfortable like all i'll say is that like if you have ever in your life heard if you've ever heard of anybody hang out with me um in a public setting like i am exceedingly nice to anybody that i come across um i think bella made fun of me once because when you were in a parking lot some woman was trying to get like chairs from like the store to her car and i helped her move the [ __ ] over and pack her car or when i got off the plane today i saw there was a guy trying to sit down and he had crutches and obviously he was having difficulty he's like oh i can put these up here get him down at the end or when we were in the airport with molina we walked by a couple people and it's like pretty clear that they're lost like hey can i help you and they don't really speak english it's like oh do you need help blah blah blah like show them other google map thing how to figure out like like very very very those are all like very minor things like little things like that oh anytime i um any time i um if i'm in my neighborhood if okay this is something where somebody did this for me once and i will never [ __ ] forget it um we were working a carpet cleaning job it wasn't a carpet cleaning job technically it was a power cleaning job um because we were doing the we were spraying the i don't know what you call the outdoor carpets or whatever we were doing that and when the and when the guy showed up the person's house we were working for he brought like donuts which was awesome i thought that was sick as [ __ ] um uh so any time if i was driving to her from my house and my neighborhood if anybody's roof is ever being worked on or people are doing work if i see that i will make it a point to go to dunkin donuts and you can get two dozen donuts and like you know 10 coffees and like a bag of like sugar and cream and bring it back because everybody appreciates that especially if they're outside working like oh hey here's donuts like have fun or whatever for people like there are like things like that but like i can do these things because these things mean they they cost me nothing right i can spend 50 bucks on donuts and coffee but like for the people they're actually working like this means a lot to people like it's such a like if you ever see people working like construction or outdoors or whatever showing up with like two dozen donuts and like a bunch of coffees with like cream of sugar like is such a wonderful thing for people like that i'm just saying like stuff like that um ugh okay i'm gonna like jerk myself out but like i feel like i feel like if you have the means to like be a good person or like help people oh yeah like the lily [ __ ] or whatever yeah you should like do stuff like this like but it's not even this i feel like it should come natural to you um i don't know like i feel like i talk a lot about like no i guess i don't really talk a lot about being nice to other people because i always come off as an asthma stream all the time but like treating other people well is a really important thing to me um especially especially if you're in a privileged position man i live a better life like 99 of people in america let alone on the rest of the planet right like you can give a little back it doesn't hurt that much to do like a little bit to help people or to like you know yeah i don't know why is treating other people well important to you um i think that you can you can put in such a minuscule amount of effort to make somebody else feel so much better about like their day um like why wouldn't you like if you have the ability to do that why wouldn't you do that like it's so easy and then for me money-wise is so so so easy sometimes to do like a lot for somebody so like a few times i've been like in it the thing that sucks is i feel like these are stories that people would make up so i'm trying to only i'm trying to only do things that other people see me do but like if you ask people that hang out with me like if somebody in front of me card gets canceled or like a grocery store like i can pick up their groceries it's not a big deal people are usually insanely grateful for that like it is like they're they will like because for some people like buying groceries it's a decent cost right but like yeah and then everybody in the store collapse whatever yeah reckful oh god that cringe [ __ ] clip um destiny i wouldn't do that because they wouldn't do the same i think that part of giving to other people is that there should be an expectation that you're not going to get anything back for it because i think that's what like really i think that's what i think that's what good people do um yeah i don't know man dude one time when i had my gti back when i thought that all season tires were actually good i got stuck in my [ __ ] driveway once i don't know if i told the storage stream before i think i did i got stuck in my driveway once and i was trying to get to work and i was [ __ ] there was no [ __ ] way i was ever getting out of my uh i was never getting out of my driveway it just wasn't gonna happen um and the [ __ ] mexican guy from across the street it must have been like [ __ ] four or five a.m this guy comes over and he spends like 30 minutes digging my tires out this guy can't speak any english it was like unreal like and i couldn't believe this guy spent so much time like democrat and i never saw that dude again when i started streaming i tried to go back to that house i bought like in [ __ ] walmart gift cards or some [ __ ] and i wanted to and i went back to the house like oh [ __ ] like i've got money not like i should like give this guy something and i went back when i knocked on the ground it was some other random [ __ ] family that lived there and i never found that guy but like i don't know i think that like the world works better when you like i don't know like people should just be like helping people should be like looking out for other people yeah maya is actually doing [ __ ] um she actually does [ __ ] she created some non-profit i think she's constantly fundraising for her animal stuff doesn't that get reductive are you giving money to all homeless or do you kind of have to mentally budget what you can buy rather i mean i think you should just like make like a decent effort like i'm not bankrupting myself like all of the things that i've mentioned aren't big expenses to me i'm not bankrupting myself to help anybody right they're just like little acts of like kindness or whatever you can show other people that make people like so much happier throughout the day well well well if it isn't vaush vidya back on twitch yeah for now we'll see how long that lasts huh well as long as you don't talk about the middle eastern people we had a very very nuanced discussion about that a debate panel earlier um all right what are you talking about i was reading donors i didn't get a chance to catch up on the context of this discussion um well i don't know i only made it like two [ __ ] minutes into your i don't even think i made it that far you got really mad that i said that people should probably like spend money on things that are important to them if they want to like make a change they should like actually do something and it feels a little bit creepy when like all of these lefties are getting like mega rich on these like content platforms and they're like hide the amount of money they make and they don't like seem to be doing anything proactive it just feels a little bit cheap okay we got a lot of points built up all right so we can take them one at a time so your argument let me make sure i'm still manning this properly your argument is that you think if you're an advocate for a given political ideology and you make a lot of money that you should probably use that money in responsible ways such to the effect that you can propagate your political ideology right yeah but not i mean like not all of it you don't have to be poor and it's not so much that like there should be some minimum spending or whatever i would just imagine that like if you're a socialist and you truly believe in all of these ideas that like you would probably try to find projects or things that you could invest in to kind of like i don't know further those causes in the world that's what i would imagine if you really truly believed about these things we're really strongly believing these things and you think it'd be a fault against that person if they didn't do that to a sufficient extent um or to any extent yeah for sure to a sufficient extent i mean you can we can quibble over like how much should but like if they're not doing anything at all it's like well damn what the [ __ ] right okay so we're talking this is all about uh abigail right i think that was not all about abigail i still had a lot of lefty creators but i mean we can focus on abigail first if you want okay um okay point by point so you say that hiding income is bad right it doesn't have to be but if if you're social it feels kind of weird but yeah i don't like hiding income either but i don't think it has to do with socialism thing i just think when people donate to you or sub to your patreon or whatever they should be doing so with a a reasonable understanding of the type of person they're contributing money to you know what what type of person it's interesting to me because like i'll see a lot of lefties will make arguments on it's it's okay it's funny to me because i'll see a lot of people will make arguments saying things like wages should all be public the reason why wages are hidden is because your employer is trying to take advantage of you and on one end that's kind of true however there are legitimate reasons why some high paid individuals might want to keep their wages private like we see every single lefty content creator do so it's funny that they opt to keep their wages private but then on the other hand we'll say things like well all wagey should be public that's just the boss trying to screw you over it's like well hold on it seems like you know why you want to keep your money secret is because you don't want people you know like i guess having other demands or expectations of you there are differences between the way that pans out when you have co-workers who are being paid wages by a boss or there might be discrepancies in how much different people are being paid or differences in the contracts versus like a youtube channel where you're getting your money off patreon and you're not inherently tied to a wage from any larger institution right yeah but is it is it really is the difference there meaningful because it seems to me that the reason why we get upset about different wages being paid to different workers is because we feel like we'll hold on all of you guys are doing similar work this is [ __ ] why is one of you getting paid so much more than the other but when it comes to content creation it seems like well hold on i'm getting paid more than you because i'm more popular than you even if you are doing the same work or even less work so it seems like if anything that should be an even stronger cause for like being public with like hey this is how much money i make well i think they should i think it should be public in both cases but for different reasons i do think that sometimes different people doing the same work and pay different amounts and that making wages public would make it easier for workers to collectively organize but i also think the reason why you should expose your income if you're a patreon person is so you can't play up a narrative that you're some basement dwelling you know like you're saving up to you sold your kidney and you're saving up to buy the stitches and you can't afford x and y when you make twenty thousand dollars a month i think that's exploitative very often people will uh they'll they'll it's not preying on your audience but they'll manufacture a narrative where they need the money more than they do sure it's like girls that are saying like oh i'm so single and lonely and blah blah blah and they're like trying to get guys to donate to them or some [ __ ] and then they have like a husband or whatever it's like okay well yeah yeah exploitative i'm rich you're rich hassan's really [ __ ] rich if people are gonna donate to any of us i think they should do so understanding that i mean they're not putting a sandwich in our mouths or anything they should do it because they like the content yeah well i don't disagree on that okay but about this spending money for socialist causes thing yeah like like what well i could brainstorm some things if you want but i mean like i'm not a socialist so i haven't thought about it much okay well do you have any because i mean you say putting money towards uh uh some kind of project to advocate your political ideology sure it'd be easy to make the hypocrite argument with anybody else but you've actually put a lot of money down for your uh for your um for your time even if i hadn't put any money down though i could get away with it because i don't make it like my like mode of economic production it's not like a moral argument i don't i don't like i don't like ascribe morality to capitalism the same way that like a socialist might say that it's like an inherently immoral system well you ascribe morality to whichever system you believe best brings society in a direction that meets your axiomatic values right you think that's capitalism yeah but like the difference is that like the um the participation i don't believe that the participation in capitalism is inherently immoral but i think that some of the outcomes might be immoral but a socialist would say that the participation in capitalism to some extent could be immoral if you're a capital owner like just regardless of the outcome even if so like marx for instance would say even in a perfectly equitable society if the workers don't own the means of production there's still exploitation going on there right so like so i think that like if you if you are like a if you have like very strong values related to like um economic arguments it just feels like you should do something to do that yeah wait hold on i just real quick okay i'm not going to get like mean with you or whatever but i just want to point out that like so like this guy in your chat destiny be like you claim to be socialist we haven't donated your entire income to charity curious man phil wynn you are really [ __ ] stupid i'm so sorry that you have to live your existence okay this guy in your chat just said vosh tony w you want to answer for that what's wrong with tony w oh he's i don't like the look he's giving me i'm not gonna lie here's something that i think would be really interesting okay and now keep in mind i'm not a socialist so i don't think about this a lot okay but like this is just all the time i had so i think you can franchise a mcdonald's for like a million dollars or whatever um i think it's i think it's about a million dollars i think you can franchise me what if you got a bunch of lefties together you get a loan a joint loan and you franchise mcdonald's and like the payout structure and like the ruling of that mcdonald's was like a co-op that would be sick as [ __ ] and it would be it would be a mcdonald's so it's like the symbol of [ __ ] capitalism it's like imagine you're successfully running a mcdonald's as like a co-op with a bunch of money and you've got like managers and workers and all this [ __ ] that are all like have like democratic decisions like that would be like one example of like that would be a sick ass experiment that would be really cool yeah i can't deny that i think so i think i need to run back to this participation and capitalism thing sure i don't know i can't speak for other people's values there are a lot of dumb [ __ ] lefties i don't know how much they get misinterpreted but for me personally i don't think there's anything wrong with an individual maximizing their outcomes within an unethical system like capitalism especially if they're a socialist because it increases the likelihood that they'll be able to achieve political and economic power does that i love the i would love it if we had socialists who were go-getter business majors so when the day comes or something we have people in legitimate positions of power as opposed to a bunch of college students and you understand that like with that mentality you could never criticize bezos again though right well i don't criticize bezos really oh okay hold on it's entirely possible that i've misspoke generally speaking and i do hold to this try to criticize the systems that allow people like bezos to exist now there have definitely been times where i've said like ah [ __ ] bezos but i don't really think i levy my criticisms that individuals and how they use this system yeah that's interesting because like so what you're giving me right now is the most capitalist take um so people um actually devin nash made this argument to me a long time ago which was funny but basically the idea is is that if you want to do good things you should live as the most brutal ruthless capitalist in the world so that you can amass as much money as possible and then using that money you leverage it for good causes so for example people like bill gates or people like jeff bezos i think bezos is starting like a fund for i don't remember the project or whatever but he's doing like charitable stuff now that he's going to be serving on the board instead of ceo those wouldn't meet my criteria for doing good with the wealth that you've achieved i actually think that bill gates in some ways has done harm to our understanding of welfare programs because by privatizing or charitizing by making charity the means by which we engage in i know he's done a lot of really good work in africa i feel like it assigns a responsibility with regards to those social problems like what if a billionaire took care of it and i think those questions or those assumptions have a lot of really negative long-term implications with a prioritization of charity over real effective foundational so yeah and i can understand that but can you so these two positions seem odd to me so what you just said was that it can be dangerous and um i agree with you by the way to some extent that like having billionaires cure diseases and stuff is really cool but it's also a little bit scary because it's like okay well hold on should that should the job of like billionaires or like do we need to rely on billionaires to take care of these chroniclers like that's really scary um i don't know if that's like a positive but like how do you square that away with your belief that people should maximize their existence under capitalism so that they can become those the very same billionaires the little ones that are the ones like solving those problems how do you haven't you worked your way out of this snafu before how do you think you're getting taxed enough you i mean um probably not it'd probably be higher yeah but you're going to move to a place that has lower taxes i think you push for institutional change while trying to maximize whatever benefits you can accrue within a system even if you think that system is unjust now i could be i could be assigning moral weight here that's not justified but i imagine that you probably think the low taxes on wealthy people we have right now are unjust because they do not accurately reflect the necessary funding of social programs that we need can you still take advantage of it real quick so like this is so a lot of people have a lot of trouble with this distinction i don't know why i don't think that paying taxes or not paying tax i don't think that taxes have anything to do with morality i don't care if people pay taxes or don't pay taxes like what i'm focused on is do we have the social programs that we need whether or not i'm living in a high-tax state or a low-tech state has zero bearing on whether or not any of those social problems exist and i don't make an inherent judgment on the morality of paying high taxes versus paying medium taxes so i can do whatever i want and i don't think i run into any problems but the problem is the socialist inherently makes moral statements related to capitalism so i think it makes it i think i mean by inherent i mean so do you think it's less moral for a civilization to not have the wealth necessary to pay out good social programs like is that is there any more that would be bad then wouldn't that be you making a moral statement about a society having unjustly low taxes because you wouldn't yeah your individual but whether or not you individually pay higher low taxes has no bearing on that right you're looking at the outcome you're looking at like the entirety of a system right your individual contribution i completely agree yeah and likewise i think that if a socialist makes a decent amount of money or even gets invested in wall street speculation or business that their actions have nothing to do with whether or not capitalism or socialism is going to be around tomorrow and that in the meantime they're just doing what they can to further their own interests within that yeah and the nice thing the benefit is if they do use that power and influence to do good for their social or economic system obviously i think that's a good thing okay so here's a question that i have for you let's say that we have two vegans okay let's say that one guy is a vegan because he believes that it will bring about very positive changes in the environment and let's say that another guy is a vegan because he thinks that like consuming like dead and tortured and murdered animals is like just ethically wrong period i'm sorry could you repeat the first one first guy is vegan for environmental reasons and the second guy is vegan because he thinks it's just it's totally horribly wrong to murder sentient beings and then to consume their corpses right do you think that if both of these people occasionally ate meat do you think that it would mean the same thing to both those people do you think both would be equally hypocritical that's a pretty tough question to answer i think it's a such a simple question answering uh well i'd have to put myself in their headspaces i imagine that both of them would feel hypocritical to some extent but it would probably be worse for the latter wouldn't it well yeah so i i would think that so in one's case right the environmental vegan is not placing a moral like judgment on the act of eating or not eating like an animal right he's looking at the outcome related to it now if occasionally he eats meat he's not really doing much to effect a different outcome right if he eats meat every now and then he's not making a substantial difference in the environment so he could do it i don't know if he's really hypocritical if he is vegan most of them that's cool but like if he's trying to advocate for the change that we bring about the environmental change that he's looking for him eating meat every now and then isn't really a big deal but if the other guy is ethically vegan because he's opposed to the consumption of animals because he thinks that's murder well now him eating meat ever is really [ __ ] up that's really wrong like well hold on what are you you're directly engaging in something that is just ethically not permissible this is really bad so i think that the two of these people could have a son i'm a consequentialist so wouldn't the um wouldn't both of those points ultimately boil down if one if both of them were consequentialists wouldn't both of those ultimately boil down to when i eat meat it contributes harm to the world um i i think that even i think that even if we were consequentialists we could still look at these two actions as being like sure but at the at the end of the day that would be the ultimate argument that disgust with the act of eating meat would be because consequentially you believe that eating meat reinforces some social world where it's okay to do harm to animals and so on and so forth you would have to run the logic train a bit but at the end of the day it would be about the harm done well yeah of course but in the logic train the harm done the consequences are different for both people so for instance for the first vegan that's the consequences of his action is he contributes a trivial amount of pollution that's the consequence and that's a little bit bad but it's like not really that big a deal but for the second guy the consequence is like he's directly partaken in like consuming part of an animal and that that consequence just right then and there is horrible the consequences of both actions are significantly different because where they where they put like the moral weight of what they're doing right the first guy who wants to change the system the second i think that every one of those individual acts is bad go ahead oh sure then i think this would be applicable only if socialists weren't stupid enough to take the perspective of the latter person you don't like the way our society operates right now in a number of ways you obviously have political opinions i feel the same way our endpoints are different but at the end of the day my belief that our society is unethical because it's not socialist and your belief that our society you wouldn't say is unethical um i believe that society could be improved with the implementation of certain policies as do you and while i believe the current system is flawed i don't think that the act of flourishing within the system is necessarily a moral crime now i want to be clear though because there are like different scales of this if you get up to be like a mega billionaire there are ways in which your presence and your wealth and your influence perpetuate systems that like a regular rich person wouldn't like bezos is a regular millionaire is closer to me by a long shot than they are to bezos so there's a scale difference there and if you're up to like warren buffett's size i think i could hear arguments about like okay well at this point you're so much a part of the institution that maybe you are systemically perpetuating the existence of capitalism but for a person who's making a bunch of money off patreon i don't think that their engagement with the system is perpetuating it i don't think that they're doing anything but flourish sure so i agree with you and you probably agree with me and you might even so you might even agree these next few statements then um you agree would you agree then with based on what you've just said then though you have to completely no when i say you i mean in a general sense for a leftist not necessarily for you like you have to completely get rid of all of the rhetoric of like criticizing wealthy people or landlords or business owners in general that all has to go because these are all people that are just participating in the system then so somebody that owns a few businesses somebody that owns a few pieces of property that he rents out um wealthy people in general like if you're not like a mega billionaire or somebody like perpetuates this on your own you basically have to stop criticizing all of these people for being successful capitalists there are two points to that if you've i don't know why you would have watched it but generally yeah i do think that a lot of lefties engage in criticism which is too individualist i think that there are rhetorical benefits to phrases like acab when it gets people to thinking oh cops are bad people it pulls them away from the institutional criticism i've talked about landlords before i despise the commodification of land and housing but most landlords i i could be wrong with this i'm pretty sure most landlords are just regular folk it's not like mega corps or anything yeah yeah a lot of those people make less money than the i know my landlord makes less money than i do um and then with businesses likewise so i think what did michael brooks say you should be kind to people and hard on institutions i think that's a really really good um way of going about these things that being said there is a rhetorical benefit to aggressive and hyperbolic criticism of people in those institutions if it gets people sufficiently angry a la a cab the goal then would be to get people angry while trying to direct their criticisms in a responsible way do you think that um so so okay um i'm not trying to like make you bite the bull and everybody did that sound no no you're not you're not you're not being weasel i'm just not sure how consistent this rhetoric is because so the rhetoric that you're giving me right now is like pretty far removed from what most leftists say publicly now you're not most leftist when i say this a lot i don't think that you actually give the same takes but like it be if and i'm i feel like i'm kind of repeating myself i'm not trying to trap you whatever but like because this is like very far removed from normal lefty dialogue you've basically completely removed your ability to ever be critical of 99 of the participants of capitalism but it feels like most leftists want to be able to say that like a business owner or a landlord is being necessarily exploitative in like a morally wrong sense well they are sure a landlord is being exploitative but the system that we live in requires the existence of landlords if a person decided to not be a landlord out of conscientious objection somebody else would be a landlord and we need landlords to rent property as the system exists right now so even if the role is an exploitative one it's a one that one must necessarily take same with cops you know and i say this to people they'll donate and they'll say um i want to be a cop but then i became a lefty should i become a cop and my answer has always been yeah go for it um we need lefty cops and if you say no some [ __ ] meathead who flunked out of high school is going to take that job instead so i don't necessarily know if it's inconsistent with my positions i think that a lot of lefties engage in language which is rhetorically effective but semantically inaccurate but if you actually talk with them for a bit you can get them to flesh out some of the nuances to these positions you know okay well i mean i i'm not i i i by the way as an addendum there probably have been times that i've railed against cops or landlords or very wealthy people in a way which comes off as a centralist it's generally language that i try to avoid um but but like on a principal level i do think that the institution should be what you criticize you don't think that there are ways that you can exist in that institution as like a better person than rather than like you should just be like the most cutthroat try-hard sweat guy that is like trying to export that system to the maximum do you recognize well i'm saying right now i think you did exist and you do say do you think that there's a distinction between two people um that exist in a system like that um okay hold on so yeah something like way better yeah so like let me take some statements um so something that you said earlier was that um you ought to maximize your existence and capitalism um to better yourself um so you can do more later with your money or something right you that was like a statement that you agree with right i think it's nice when people do that if they don't want to do that that's fine but i think it's good when people do that yeah okay so it doesn't matter either way no no i mean as ought to i think that socialists should work to be educated and successful i don't think it's a moral obligation that every single one of them become like a business major or something but i i do think it's good when they do that i just don't want to sound like i want everyone to run down that road well guys because so my next question's gonna be like let's say that you have like um let's say you get like a landlord and like this landlord is like a lefty and he decides that when the pandemic comes in he's actually gonna go into his savings account and he's gonna he's gonna raid his like 401k a little bit so that he can charge less money to his tenants do you think that that landlord is just being an idiot should he be maximizing his means under capitalism rather than losing some of his personal money no not at all i think it's good when people try to act exceptional within the purview of those systems i would never disagree with that no and i have a lot of respect for those people right i mean there's a pretty big difference between i know landlords who were kind or kinder than they needed to be to their tenants and i think that's very admirable i think that if we get too hard on essentialist criticisms then we preclude the possibility of those people doing good within their means okay so like that's kind of the thing that i'm looking at so a lot of people will try to counteract every single time i bring up anything about a socialist may be spending some money to further themselves that one that comic always comes out which like ah well you live in a society yet you participate in it or you criticize study you live in it ha ha like ah i've got you right but it's like it feels like some people have the means to be a little bit more productive towards their ideological ends even in a capital system and it surprises me not to see people do that like i'll get up here and i'll shout and scream about how important i think some things are and i'd like to believe that like if you ever meet me in real life you look what i do in real life like well i'm trying to live that message out as much as possible it's not i don't turn off the stream and then drop the messaging but it feels like for a lot of socialists it's like okay well you guys are generating so much [ __ ] money now where is it all going where there's got to be some project or something it feels like you would something i keep saying you but i don't mean you personally it feels like something do you have a person in mind um sure so like shawn and jen like that guy makes a decent amount of money or abigail philosophy tube she makes a decent amount of money um h bomber guy i think makes a decent amount of money um i'm sure there are more channels i don't know them all but like those are like three oh hassan obviously on twitch makes it although i don't i don't even know why because i'm like a politics person um mike from pa central committee on um twitch like that guy makes like a decent amount of money now um i'm sure if somebody people can um that that brianna girl but she's kind of removed from the youtube scene i'm thinking i'm trying to think of just like please don't associate me with brianna under any circumstances yeah well oh the chapel trap house people yeah were they or them yeah i i can't speak to all of these people i know that so i'll say this if a person just wants to make lefty content online and then roll around in a pile of money at the end of the day i don't necessarily have a problem with that really because the alternative if the alternative was their absence from the platform entirely um i think that's preferable i think it's of course infinitely preferable they do something nice with that money i want to make a pack i i recently um the the tech the tech advisor for aoc's campaign reached out to me about getting a pack for 2022 to maybe help a a progressive candidate in a a purple district or something and i thought i could throw some money in there and maybe bully some other people into throwing money in there too i thought i could bully hassan because that [ __ ] makes at least seven figures a year um and i think that'd be nice i think that i'll be real i think that for a lot of people they didn't really understand the ways in which they could put their money towards projects like that i'll know and people are saying i'm sucking up i thought that your canvassing stuff was pretty inspiring um maybe if we push for that if we advocate for that more we can get more action like that out of people like abigail or sean because they have enough money and influence to do real good uh-huh all right yeah i guess sir yeah i mean i guess that's that's just surprising to me to see like like when i like when i look at somebody like nick fuentes like that's a guy that is like trying to do definitely more effective yeah and not just effective like [ __ ] like that guy's like out like [ __ ] marching on that you can i don't i still don't know if he was at the capitol or if that picture is on me or not um but like i'm pretty sure he was he was at least outside right like that's the guy that's marching he's got his own [ __ ] movement of gripers these guys are showing up at like like charlie kirk conventions and stuff like damn like that guy's like he's actually like organizing and doing [ __ ] um and and he's like banned on every platform leftists have like all the capital behind them they've got all the corporate messaging behind them like they're in a they're in such a good position to raise money on all these platforms where is where where is it going like what the [ __ ] i don't disagree with this i think i mean up until recently this wasn't even a thing people thought they could do you know and the world between making content online and getting involved in irl politics is i think it's a wall that a lot of people don't feel they're capable of climbing but clearly it's a thing that can be done well the only thing i'm saying because i feel at this point we're just agreeing with each other is that i wish you would be more willing to believe that the reason why these lefties aren't doing this is because it's unfathomable or difficult to them more so than because they're like callous or self-centered grifters because i can tell you and i'd like to think i'm a decently politically involved person that up until you're canvassing didn't even cross my mind honestly didn't even cross my mind so hopefully this is something that we can normalize i could be wrong they could be way more cynical than i expect but okay i mean i hope so i guess it just it makes me disappointed that like i don't know if you did this or not but i know that like all like so many like i know hassan did this so many left-leaning people were tweeting out like when like other celebrities were like donating money and they're like you only donated 5 million you're worth 100 million dollars like you only did this much blah blah blah it's like okay well damn geez like apparently donating money isn't enough like but meanwhile like you guys i'm saying you guys i don't mean you like like these guys are doing nothing like what the [ __ ] yeah well i just wanna target this at you but i'm saying i think i think a lot of people do that because they don't want less economically conscientious people to think too much of the celebrities for doing so they don't want the celebrity to be able to build a personality cult around donating a thousandth of their income and being hailed as a hero for years to come well do you think that's any worse than building a cult of personality around preaching for leftist causes over and over again while soliciting patreon donations and doing nothing in real life to further the cause is that really that much work in fact couldn't you maybe even argue the celebrities doing more arguably well the celebrities objectively doing more with the money they have um let me think i think they're comparable in one way the only way in which they're um not discomparable what's the disparate the way in which they're disparate is that there's already a culture of prioritizing um charity over uh good social welfare programs and i think that a lot of lefties are very allergic to the the the conception that charity can solve these social problems they get very defensive or very reactively aggressive with them so and i think that's justified to an extent too because the number of libertarians that i've heard or neocons saying that charity is going to fix social problems it's an aneurysm every time so i think that explains why they lash out there in particular but i do think they're comparable otherwise yeah sure okay well i mean yeah that's all i'm saying is it seems like it'd be nice to see people that talk about doing something all the time do you think it would be possible for me to get you off abigail's back just a smidge i just feel like the degree of antagonism is unwarranted i legitimately think that that is one of the least like one of the worst people on the internet if they the best thing that that person could do for society is delete all of her videos and tweets and everything why because her takes are dog [ __ ] in every sense of the word they're one of the least informed they put out some of the finance and econ arguments they put out are like hilarious they're beyond rep reproach like she's trying to put you on the spot here oh yeah no i i legitimately think she's one of the what is there a video you have in mind or like a club almost every every older i remember that her econ takes were so bad that somebody did um explaining economics yeah um that guy did a video on one of her like and just briefly brought up one of her prior takes and then she was like this is why i don't actually bring up any real examples because people are just going to nitpick and nitpick um i've watched you say that um she tweeted it didn't she can somebody if that's the case i've i do think that's unfortunate unlearning economics videos have been pretty good yeah she she uh literally me abigail literally came out and tweeted um she literally came out and tweeted she was like this is why i don't oh no no i'm wrong she didn't tweet it was at the end of a follow up video or whatever where she explicitly said and this is why i try to stay with him real examples because other streamers will just nitpick it apart it was at the end of a video we watched um she said that he was nitpicking and biased bye-bye yeah basically yeah and that was like yeah or i haven't seen that and then the tweets are like i don't know what it is about lefties and econ that is just so hilariously cringe i think she tweeted like can somebody remind me of the iphone tweet oh my god do you know what everyone i'm talking about i i know the one time she tweeted that economics is is oh there was one there she yeah that was dumb but she tweeted like an iphone costs 20 to make and then we sell it for 800 and all the rest is imaginary capitals and money like ignoring everything that goes between the pure manufacturer of an iphone and the actual transportation the r d the marketing the like employees to man the store blah blah like it just it's just it's a simplistic take i don't deny that have you watched okay i'm not trying i'm not trying to pivot have you watched any of her content that wasn't about economics no i tried yes i tried to i tried to watch one philosophy or anything but i [ __ ] i would have to go back and i don't i'm uncomfortable saying i don't remember but i felt like her philosophy was dog [ __ ] too oh it might have been an abortion i don't have a strong memory of her econ takes um it wouldn't surprise me if they were inaccurate like she barely does she barely scratches the surface of pop philosophy and her takes on that like i don't even think we're that good but they're pop they're poppy videos yeah do you have a is there a problem with that though those videos are very um digestible to a general audience the problem with ultra digestible pop philosophy is oftentimes it gets a lot of stuff wrong for instance sam harris like or jordan peters let's not let's not compare to the my problem with sam harris and jordan peterson oh my god wait i'm sorry i had a brain blast real quick i watched her video on consciousness and the lack of understanding of almost anything she was talking about was one of the most dog [ __ ] videos oh my god it was so bad i could even go back and watch that again tonight it was so bad oh my god okay sorry but yeah anyway i think all of her videos are dog [ __ ] i think that she's legitimately like a waste of space on this platform okay okay sorry okay yes i got it oh wait okay this might just be where we differ here sure but my issues with jordan peterson and sam harris aren't so much that they're wrong it's that they lead people in the wrong political direction i think that pop content of all kinds all pop which is most 98 of what the average person will be engaging with is going to be poppy derivative um simplistic stuff oh yeah i don't think pop content is bad but just as long as it leads people in a good direction i think it's generally pretty defensible i think there needs to be some adherence or conformity to truth i don't think it can just i don't think you just lie and move people in the right direction and that makes it okay what about a simplistic um and somewhat reductive video that has the right spirit directs people towards more substantive work genuinely asking wait hold on real quick also if jackie wants to come and talk later 100 we can do it okay i guarantee that all my trans fakes are better than yours you [ __ ] piece of [ __ ] okay what were you saying sorry this person is right harassing me in your chat one of your mods um okay sorry uh repeat your last thing again um what was i saying oh that's one of my mods i know um oh okay they call me okay anyways go ahead wait to be fair lots of people okay anyway so let's say you've you've you've popped content and it's a little misleading a little reductive but the message is good it pushes people in the right direction and at the end they have links to resources that you could read up on to be more educated on it do you think that's acceptable uh so i'm only i just don't know what you mean in terms of reductive everything that you said doesn't sound bad my issue right now is that i think i think that going forward something i'm trying to be very strict on is i think that is very very very important to report factual stuff correctly because i think right now the biggest issue that we're having probably across the world but very the very least in the united states is we are widening this chasm of what both sides see as reality and that widening of the chasm even if it's for a good cause i don't think is good i think it i think at the end of the day i think that lying a little bit to sell a good message is actually hurting these good messages so much and it makes them so difficult for anybody to buy into them you think that if we got rid of so let's take the right out of this because the right doesn't care about misinformation okay if we took all the left left doesn't either unfortunately right now but yeah well let's act i think that like principally the right doesn't care about misinformation leftists i think just are very good at misleading themselves i don't know if that's true i think the right is the same i think a lot of them are very good at missing themselves but go ahead okay well we can discuss that but that aside um if we were to get rid of all content which has any misleading elements for the advocacy of liberal or left leaning politics i think that would destroy almost everything we would be left with npr style incredibly empirical fact-based and dry commentary uh high-level academia accessible only content and maybe a couple of people left capable of threading that line wait this is wait hold on there are people in chat saying good we lose if that happens wait i i i i think that this is a bad dichotomy you can have content that's edgy engaging entertaining aesthetic that doesn't mislead people or lie the expectation that even reductive content must be excised from people on our side of the no i think our productive content is okay well what's the line then the line is when you're misreporting the facts or if you're like completely misrepresenting something or if you're being so reductive that you're being incorrect okay but in this case i think incorrectness is kind of a a gradient um whatever the ingredient is we're way way way way far away from where i would be debating the grading right now we're just like people just report things that are just actually not true that's my issue sure that you would do that but okay i don't remember enough of these philosophy tube videos to meaningfully defend we don't have to talk about abigail's [ __ ] i don't care about her that much the whole time liking the most were the s id pull stuff but um that aside okay i'll ask you um hypothetical okay uh you can adhere to truthfulness entirely get rid of everything misleading and dishonest on your side of the aisle but it costs you the war i don't think so i think it would i think i think it would help i think that what costs us the war right now is the and i'm going to be totally honest this is like anecdotal as [ __ ] for me uh so i maybe i'm wrong here but like here's one of the issues that i run into and i and i noticed this because i baited test some examples of my mom when i'm in florida okay when i argue with my mom i have to immediately own a whole bunch of poorly represented or misrepresented facts immediately and then by the end of that i have to tell my mom like okay okay hold on listen okay yeah this was wrong and yeah that was a lie and okay that was true but the rest of this is true i swear to god mom okay where's she getting that info from for sometimes from from left-leaning people like um is that really the case yeah so i'll i'll go over some of the most popular ones that i hear that i've gone over among times you probably heard these on stream before right the one of the number one things easiest misreported fact yeah why do so many people say she was killed in her sleep in bed does like matter yes it totally matters to the to the facts of the wrongness of her murder does it matter what even to the facts of the wrongness of a murder yeah now okay because there's a huge difference in the cops so in so i'll describe what i think was real straight bullets fly into the building i mean depending on the position of the bedroom a hallway could be no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no same hold on hold on okay so this is the facts of the case that i believe to be true based on everything i've read right wait can i wait can i address one quick thing from chat yeah go for it there are a lot of people in chat painting right now like why does the truth matter whether or not two different interpretations or two different versions of a story meaningfully affect political discourse around that story is a valid question one of the issues that i have with your content destiny is sometimes it feels like you sacrifice political efficacy for the image of correctness even if that line between technical correctness and rhetorically or um politically efficacious but somewhat misleading uh is ultimately meaningful that's because my goal isn't to get an audience of twenty thousand brain dead lefties at all this one hear me circle jerk the popular lefty take the news i want to be able to reach actually i want to be able to agree with you yeah and that's not happening on youtube okay my goal isn't to just get a whole bunch of people that already agree with me and then just give them our version of the facts i want to be able to have it so that if somebody is in the middle or even on the right listen to me at the very least i want them to walk away as mad that everything i said was was correct and at the very least they're going to have to wrestle with that in their head rather than debate don't give a [ __ ] whether or not they lost i don't care about the people i debate it's about the people you just said you want them to leave aspects the people that are fans of the people that i debate this is more specifically what i'm talking about they just care that you were allowed and you talked more than them and you interrupted it and you're sure yeah and you would go to your debate no what people care about is is if they have some hero content creator and that content creator goes up and debate someone else and they sound dumb the person that's a fan of that person will feel dumb and that's a frustrating experience when your heroic content creator gets trumped by some other guy that makes it sound like they know more facts people being made to feel dumb especially if you're arguing with conservatives has less to do with the extent to which you adhere to factual information and much more to do with how much better you look than them and that's a rhetoric game sure but the factual no it can be two ends of that sometimes they both can help sure but it's if if you are matched with somebody else that is even somewhat rhetorically effective and you have like bad facts on your side like it's gonna be really hard for you to win that argument so like if we're right now if i were to say because we've both been calm if i were to say that we were like rhetorically even-footed right if i were just spamming this tweet over and over again on my channel so i haven't shown this to your screen if i was spamming this one earlier i think i would have won an earlier argument about you being hypocritical about your messaging because this kind of challenge yeah well yeah i linked you to the twitter thing you're not showing a shirt but like if i were to show a tweet like this this like contradicts almost everything that you said earlier and i'd be like aha i won and then i could hang up and be like wow see he's a hypocrite right it's from more than a year ago hold on remember being a billionaire is a choice extracting surplus labor is a choice lobbying politicians is a choice not paying a living wage is a choice taken some responsibility you full full control of your enterprise and then it's the smiling blushing face i'm pretty sure this is a word for word uh meme adaptation of one of those uh being poor as a choice etc etc things so you're flipping the script on that i don't know wait hold on hold on hold on this wait wait to be clear this tweet i think you believe in the messaging of this if you say differently i don't believe you i think you believe in the messaging of this but this tweet is completely and totally 180 degrees from what you said earlier where it's like oh well everybody just lives in the system they should do what they can to live in the system and to do the best they can this is a compliment hold on there are still bad things that you can do within the system obviously i mean there are unethical things which are legal you can legally do those things so i didn't say everything but saying we're hardcore equivocated interpret this as weasley do you not think there's any way that this tweet can be read other than a belief that individuals should be criticized extensively for their participation in the system you just said that indiv but earlier you were telling me individuals shouldn't be criticized you should you literally said we should criticize the systems not the individual you should focus on the systems if individuals do bad things you should criticize them for those as well wait but hold on but to be clear yours my earlier questioning to you okay so now we're running backs on orgrim because i asked you earlier do you think that participation in the system is bad morally because that's why i'm criticizing you inherently yeah and you're saying that it wasn't bad that's what you said earlier but in this tweet it's not inherently bad but in this because i know i'm waiting for the destiny threads tomorrow okay hold on okay the belief that there's nothing inherently wrong with it is different from there's nothing wrong with it or two very different things we have created we're like in a back to the future time zone of like jumping around even close to being semantics i'm really sorry if you're that desperate to prove your point okay wait hold on hold on wait wait wait wait wait wait no no no no no wait hold on wait no no wait because now you just cause you just attacked me you said i was desperate so now i want to focus on one razor clear statement because you are wrong here and i'll demonstrate because you need you need to change one of your statements because everything you've said right now can't exist in totality okay you have contradictions okay so i'm looking at the second thing extracting surplus labor is a choice now i'm asking you a question do you understand that all forms of labor of wage labor is extracting surplus labor to make a profit do you acknowledge that okay so then can you tell me how if that is a choice how is it ever okay for there to be a business owner in capitalism i'm not entirely sure what you mean earlier wait i can explain exactly no earlier i asked you it okay if somebody is a business owner is it is that like a morally wrong thing or should they just maximize the system or capitalism now earlier in this conversation you said specifically to me you said well no i think you should maximize your existence capitalism and remember when we pointed out the ethical vegan and i was like well just eating meat that's morally wrong you're like okay well just participating in capitalism that's not morally wrong okay but now this tweet you're saying that it's a choice do you think there's a difference between these two statements the existence of private enterprise is unethical versus it is unethical to be a business owner do you think there's a difference between those two statements yes okay i adhere to the former i don't have a problem with wealthy lefties owning a business the tweet that you found here is literally a satire rewrite of somebody typing about how being poor is a choice and technically in this tweet that you found nothing here even says any of these things are bad only that their choices take some responsibility etcetera i'm sorry hold on wait hold on to me this would be like like you saying all tenants are bastards and me coming in and being like do you seriously believe that every person who has to rent is a bastard how can you believe that 40 of americans rent like like to me this is like a pretty hold on you're you're you're you're i am not reaching it is very obvious with this what is the hypocrisy the structure of your statement is on the left is a bad thing and on the right is the implication that you can choose to do different being a billionaire is bad being a billionaire extracting surplus labor lobbying politicians or not paying a living wage you're saying all these choices yeah they're bad choices it just says their choices because it's a rewrite of a tweet where people were saying being poor is a choice are you really i genuinely don't know if you believe these things are like a serious endorsement of the belief that you should criticize individuals here's a question that i have for you so this tweet guy i understand like the you know everything you're saying but i legitimately don't see your content everything you're saying right now sounds to me like a rhetorical game so i'm trying to cut through that okay so i'm just going to ask for this question all right let's try it again yep no so i'm going to ask you this question of the two thousand and four hundred or so two thousand or so engagements that this tweet got do you think that the majority of the people that are engaging with this believe that being a billionaire is bad extracting surplus labor is bad lobbying politicians is bad and not paying a living wage is bad i want to talk about the way your written house comments were interpreted by a broader audience is that the direction we're going that not only are we responsible for what we believe in but what every single person who follows us believes from the things we say if you believe walked into so i said this statement that you said is bad because of how it's been okay wait if you want to that's fine okay but we're not talking about my statements right now right now you just tried to what aboutism by saying well hold on if you're gonna deal with the consequences of how people interpret yourself what about your written house take now if you want to say that that's fine but i think it's strange that you're going to bring that up when you just tried to defend this over and over and over again and now you're throwing yourself under the bus to come to the bus with you do you think so yes or no do you think that it's okay to impugn people for saying or posting or whatever producing content which inspires bad interpretations in the people who consume it um if that interpretation is widespread yeah for sure i think so yeah okay of course then i then you recognize that this is something that you and i have both done at times being streamers who produce a lot of content it is capable of workshopping everything we say and do it's totally possible yeah my written stake absolutely would not fall under that but i mean like we can don't think anybody of the millions of people who saw that take might have interpreted the wrong messaging there might have been a very slim minority but the overwhelming amount of posters in my subreddit that were talking to other people coming in said over and over again that destiny said a million times that rittenhouse was an idiot that the kid was stupid for showing up that even in recent posts still say that yeah i'm pretty sure the vast majority of people who saw that clip from the outside hold on we're not talking about my clip i didn't make a 16 second clip of me talking about rittenhouse that was your people so if you want to say that the messaging on that particular clip was bad i would agree with you that was incredibly irresponsible i didn't produce that content that was somebody else i'm not going to take responsibility for how somebody else has mishmashed my content together to sell a certain message nobody listening to anything it was a very it was a 16 second cutout of like a 30 minute conversation i don't take credit for how people might interpret that any more than i would take credit for somebody thinking i'm pro-pedophilia because of a 20-second clip out of my moc debate where i spent two hours arguing in the affirmative for age of consent so no i don't take responsibility for that absolutely however i'm not looking at something that somebody else cut together of your content right now i'm not comparing you're reading a tweet you're reading a tweet i'm reading your content verbatim yes and now you want to compare that against something that somebody that hates me cut up of my content that's not a 101 what i was what i was about to say was i think that's a decent refutation that's true i've certainly been clipped out of content plenty of context plenty of times myself so you are of the opinion that um that uh uh people can be held responsible for the messaging that they engage in wait we both agree with this of course which we both agree with yeah of course okay so what perspectives what irresponsible perspectives do you think i'm incurring from this i don't know if the interpretation of this is irresponsible or not it just depends on what you believe my issue right now is that so what i'm doing right now is i have a little wash machine i've got a little compiler in my head of vosh code okay and you're giving me lines and lines and lines of code and what happens is i push compile every time you say something and now i'm writing into errors because you've got two conflicting statements one statement sure so the earlier statement you gave me in this conversation is that you ought to maximize your existence in a capitalist system and to do so is not inherently wrong that's what we've never said ought to maximize that was your language i think it's okay if people do that okay my understanding was earlier you said that like it was a good thing to maximize your existence under capitalism because you could use the extreme under utilitarianism the difference between obligatory and superregulatory behavior is not clearly defined i think it's a thing that people should do if they want to i don't think it's inherently unethical to do that i don't think it's a path that people ought to do i don't think it's a moral good inherently we can i'll amend that statement then i don't think it changes my chief criticism but i'll amend that statement you said that it would be okay if people maximize their existence under capitalism even if they were a socialist because they could employ the money they raised later on to do good things right sure not everything that they would do in the maximization of their existence would be ethical sure sure but then it sounds like in this tweet that you're defending i think it sounds to me like you're saying that merely participating in this system seems to be unethical because it seems choice but it's an unethical choice so i don't okay the reason why we talk about says wait wait real quick the reason why we talk about choices and ethics is because choice is typically tied to agency meaning you have the choice to do something or not do something and typically the choices we make are like in this case are seen as good or bad when they're when a moral statement precedes the choice right so you're murdering someone as a choice is you're implying you have some level of agency and you're choosing to do something that is bad that's the structure of these statements okay that this tweet was meant to mock the wording of a classist tweet has anything at all to do with the context behind its messaging like again being poor is a choice uh having a kid before you're married is a choice that kind of thing you've seen plenty of people talking like that do you really think that mocking that with this tweet is tantamount to an endorsement of the belief that you that all engagement within a capitalist system is uh is unethical not nest not this on its own okay now i acknowledge that there are certainly people in my audience who are of the individual criticism mindset and that there are people in my audience who probably read this and thought yeah [ __ ] billionaires but to whatever variance their interpretation of my tweet beget i'm okay with it because i recognize that literally any criticism that i make of institutions like the police or the wealthy are going to beget and attract those people i think i do due diligence by on my streams in my videos talking at length about the necessity of criticizing institutions i don't think these are ideologically inconsistent and it's much in the same way that i don't think that you're a classist because you make all tenants or bastards jokes no that's not fair though that's not a fair comparison do you want me to explain why also i have two more tweets to submit to the record and for the record i didn't want to bring up this initial tweet because i said that i didn't think it was necessary you're the one that wanted to discuss this just to be clear well you brought it up saying you could destroy my argument i don't feel destroyed i still believe the things i believe the worst that i would have to bite the bullet on was that some of the earlier tweets that i engaged in were a little bit more irresponsible with messaging which given my history on youtube is not exactly surprising but this tweet in particular i really don't think is that irresponsible i don't think it is okay sure i submit two more tweets to the record then that seem to be moving in the same direction um all right so a cab and a talking about something else sure so a tab when i say a tab i think i hope and i'm pretty sure that the majority of my audience doesn't believe that all tenants are bastards the landlord um the the love for landlord subreddit that i hope i don't know about the subreddit but there are people who are on iran there probably are yeah it's like i'm a cool lady yeah it's like the donald or whatever right i'm sure there are some people that start to unironically believe me so i can't speak for the subreddit but i'm pretty sure in my community the majority of my people and there's probably not even a minor there might be a few don't believe that all tenants are actually bastards because that's not rhetoric that i engage in constantly is attacking tenants however most leftist channels do consistently consistently engage in the rhetoric of attacking people that are billionaires the attacking the extraction of surplus labor they attack the idea behind people or corporations lobbying they constantly champion about a living wage it's a little bit different the joke's there to say that your your tweet is a comparison to me saying a cab or a tab or whatever it's not really fair because when i say atap it's very clearly like a meme tongue-in-cheek thing but when you joke about like oh haha well you are a billionaire and that's evil it's like well that's you also actually i just again i i know this comes off like i'm trying to be weasley it just said being a billionaire is a choice extracting surplus later for choice et cetera et cetera it's following the format of a different type of tweet the type of content that you've seen plenty of times before i think in the context of twitter i think it was pretty obvious what i was doing especially with the smiley blushy face at the end i mean i don't tweet like that i mean i think that's fairly evident but what is the point of the joke then what's the joke well the the joke is that there are other people who are assigning moral culpability to the poor for their presence in a system and saying that their failures are entirely a product of their own behavior and the joke is that also well not the people succeeding necessarily but people who are doing well in the system are also doing so of their own volition since lefties tend to be critical of the institutions through which these people succeed their existence in those systems also is a choice that's the joke it's like it's simultaneously criticizing their classism while also pointing out the idea that like being these things or the existence of these things is uh something worthy of criticism uh okay that's okay that's not i don't think that's how the majority of people would read it but well how do you think the majority of people would view it i literally just saw it yeah so the comparison the reason why this joke is funny is because when people like oh being poor is a choice for all that's like that's not true that's not a choice you know what is being a choice being a billionaire is a choice extracting surplus labor that's a choice lobbying politicians that's a choice not paying a living wage that's a choice take some responsibility for your actions that comes off more to me is that's what the joke is the joke is you're trying to claim that all these poor people are making choices being pointed out [ __ ] you know what are the choices you're making it's all this unethical [ __ ] that you do under capitalism that's the real choice and you need to stop take some responsibility i think 99 of people are going to read the tweet that way whatever explanation you gave i don't think is i don't think anybody's even close to reading it and whatever explanation you just legit how i read it i think that's a good read too i wouldn't have an issue with that either that seems like a fairly satirical and hyperbolic criticism i don't think that it would necessarily lead people down an irresponsible road of engaging in individual criticism like i'm just saying like okay but like would you say like you said you criticized institutions but you don't like jeff bezos or something it depends it's like in the totality like i've probably said [ __ ] basis at some point probably yeah like i don't but i'm saying like when i look at like so like when i look like other tweets like the why don't landlords get a [ __ ] job that's like 4 000 engagement like 2000 engagement or over 1500 engagement like legit single landlords cry on screen and they can't lead each other they're struggling tennessee well hold on we can go through these one at a time so the why don't landlords just get a job thing was in response to um uh various state and local governments uh um implementing legislation to engage in rent freezes or to prevent i'm sorry not rent freeze to um to prevent um come on you know what i'm saying but removal of the tenant from the property eviction eviction thank you to remove eviction and there were a bunch of landlords writing op-eds about how hard it was for them which and i'll say this i think is a pretty shitty thing to do um because if you're a landlord and you're having trouble paying your mortgage because your tenant can't pay their rent because they got laid off because of kovid you're both struggling and i think generally speaking we should prevent people from being um evicted during a pandemic so i said why don't landlords just get a [ __ ] job because the joke is that a lot of those landlords were saying that the people who were renting from them need to get a [ __ ] job to pay their rent i mean like i'm sure that we could think of an explanation for every one of these tweets but like no i i don't know why this is controversial and frankly wait okay i wanna i wanna be real with this okay i feel like i was being pretty forthcoming with my perspective on like ethics within capitalism earlier these feel like gotcha attempts i'm not trying to hold on why are you doing the why are you doing the break this case in in the event of destiny conversation you're like pulling years old tweets to say like i could defeat your argument with this or x that does feel pretty gotcha-y i don't know what else it would be okay let me walk back okay i need like a minute and a half to explain this so that gonna cut off okay because i okay that's pretty rough but okay yeah okay yeah or i don't need that long okay my problem was that when i asked you questions about leftists maximizing their existence in a capitalist system i expected you to say that in a capitalist system we should probably condemn people that live it to the fullest like maybe we can act a little bit more moral in a way that bucks the system but instead you went way off in the other direction where you were saying that like well actually i think that everybody even leftists should maximize their existence in capital systems okay you're okay or make a choice i don't know how you want to equivocate that okay but you were essentially okay you were saying that you were saying that if a leftist maximizes his existence in a capitalist environment that it wouldn't be a morally wrong thing to do it wouldn't be an immoral thing you were saying that that would be okay and that was interesting to me because if you truly believe that then you basically rob yourself of the ability to criticize any individual actor or any group of people in in a capitalist system which is strange to me because it's true okay well then we can go back and forth individual actors who could do bad things even within the purview no no no no wait wait stop stop it's not individual actors that can do bad things like setting their tenant's house on fire i'm saying that like you would have to never criticize anybody that acts in basically a legal manner in a capitalist system don't just never i never bit that bullet i don't know why you're assigning that to me because you're saying it's okay to maximize yourself in a capitalist system no i'm sorry wait so you're not saying that okay i'm deleting this whole notepad okay let's go back to the beginning okay i'm sorry wait hold on i don't know how the [ __ ] we got here when i said maximize i mean like it's okay to be a cop or like to get into a business or if you could like a cue capital that you could invest in political enterprises i think that's good but if we're talking about like um uh shorting people's no no nothing illegal if we're talking about uh playing people below like a living wage or running your business in a manner which i'd consider very unethical or being a bad cop like the kind of cop that doesn't rat on other bad cops that kind of stuff then i think those things are deserving of criticism i don't think it's possible for a person to become a billionaire without doing something that would trip my moral flag because nobody becomes a billionaire without engaging in some pretty ruthless business practices okay and there's a so i'm just i'm trying to understand what's what about this is i don't understand no no we're not even about what i'm saying that's not we we're moved we're not even not hypocritical yet okay because we backed up really far this is all i'm curious about no no no no i don't mean backed off like like we like i got you anything i'm legitimately just trying to understand because i don't know if you're trying to figure this out in real time and then give me like a coherent point that you're still working through or if you genuinely believe this what i'm trying to figure out is let's say that i'm a leftist okay like a full-blown i believe in socialism i want us to work our way towards a communist state okay and i'm going to enter the world okay am i allowed to participate in a capitalist economy to the fullest extent the law will allow without me committing a immoral and immoral action that's my question and it sounded like the moral things you can do that are legal okay like okay no i can't ask you because we're still in philosophy i'm not asking for like uh uh i'm not asking for like data-driven answers again what what would be an example of like an immoral action that's legal um i think that there are some business practices that i would consider like better than others there are certainly better business owners than others i think that if you're ruthless or cut through to your workers i'll give you an example people did donate they email i am a landlord what can i do i think charge rent maybe a little lower than what you see in your area be kind to the person who rents from you uh make sure to hire um a property manager or to get like services over quickly if something breaks over there stuff like that if now they could like charge rent up as much as they legally can in that area and even though that's legal i think that would be bad i think it'd be good if they did the former and bad if they did the latter if they did neither i guess i'm not happy about it because they would have had the potential to do better so in a socialist environment how would how do you even determine like what the right pay of your workers what the right rent is like do you just like i i don't understand like what would be moral immoral you mean socialist government no no like if you're a socialist living in a capitalist world you're trying to make sure that you're not doing something immoral by vascular standards well i don't have like an exact wage line like 20 above median for the industry or anything i i is that you're looking for no i'm actually asking are you looking for like an actual i'm just curious like but no i'm curious so let's say that houses in an area go for 1 000 a month and somebody charges like 950 a month i'm curious if i ask you is that moral i'm what i'm trying to figure out i'm trying to figure out what your no no what i'm trying to get at i'm asking you questions i'm trying to figure out your principles are like what do you actually think makes something like good or bad like what is the right or wrong like that's why i'm asking questions yeah i'm just trying to figure out like i don't know how you determine that though i'm not asking you for like a formula i'm just curious because earlier it seemed to me that like that case the landlord would have the mark the market conditions would allow them to charge more but they choose out of out of benevolence to charge a little less which makes life easier for another person maybe a person in need sure so then so would another socialist is just charging normal market rates then would that person be considered like an immoral actor um i i wish they could do better i don't necessarily know if okay i'm not hold on wait wait i don't care what you wish i'm not asking like for what is your opinion on jane doe's um relative is i'm asking you in terms of like ethically do you think it'd be ethical for like a lefty that owns property in a capitalist market ethically ethically because if that socialist was taken out another person could replace them and not taken out like killed like if they weren't there and another person replaced them we would assume they would also charge the market rate so their absence would beget no change therefore it would be a morally neutral action the decision to maintain the market rate in that area would that it would have neither a positive nor negative outcome right now the only exception to that would be if there was a socialist who was getting involved in capitalism but they were doing it in a way which was not only institutionally bad in the way that i think capitalism is but also they were uniquely doing this like they introduce a new market or avenue that only they can do an ethical action at okay if a landlord charges market rent if they're a leftist is that immoral no that'd be morally neutral okay i prefer they did a moral thing gotcha i i i don't understand if you're trying to test me for consistency or if you're outraged with the thing that i've said hey listen i have not been outraged any part of this argument i'm literally trying to figure out what you believe don't you think it's good when people of means take the opportunity to make life easier for people with maybe a little less um no actually i go a step farther i think that maximizing yourself in a capitalist environment in a way that violates your principles is actually immoral so for instance um i'm a big capitalist and i like to make money from sponsored deals i actually i think that gambling is immoral i i don't like it i i legitimately don't think it should exist in society so i do not do gambling sponsors on my stream i'll play poker because i don't say that gambling but i don't do like the blackjack and the roulette stuff i've turned down a lot of money for that or the cs go skins and all the gamma stuff i turned down all of that because i think that that's like i don't support this stuff i think it's immoral even in a capitalist framework so that would be an example of me okay but like i think that somebody that follows through with that is immoral i would say that action is immoral because that violates your principles um i don't care if you're maximizing capital framework i think that there is a deeper principle there that you're available what if they didn't care about gambling well if they didn't care about gambling then that's fine they'll do whatever but if you're a leftist then but if you're a leftist but if you're elected determined by a person's consistency no it's it's determined by the their whatever their first principle whatever they're like underlying principles why would you care about their first principle why wouldn't i care about your own well anyone if anyone promotes no no no way you would think i care about people's consistency but but when you're asking me like if i care about like a particular action then i'm i'm we're talking about like what principle does that actually come from i guess i'm sorry that sounded like sure with anyone promoting gambling even if a person was pro gambling would you think it's unethical for them to expect accept sponsorships for the cs go crates or whatever um from my perspective or from their perspective all i care about is yours oh yeah i would think it's unethical but i wouldn't think they're being inconsistent or hypocritical i would just think it's unethical yeah i don't care if a person's i just care if a person's doing what i think is good if a person is inconsistent in a way that's good like for example what is it uh uh um vegetarians or whatever you know help the animals but oh milk industry still got to drink my milk there is a hypocrisy there but it's better than them eating meat too i'm not sure concerned with hypocrisy as i am making sure that whatever net behavior they're engaging in is better than what they otherwise would have been doing sure my problem with people that are inconsistent i don't believe in inconsistencies i don't think inconsistencies are real i think that when somebody is inconsistent what's actually happened is they've just misrepresented their values so typically if somebody's inconsistent what i'm trying to figure out is well what is the actual value that you're appealing to because it doesn't seem to be what you're saying that's you i'm not i'm using most people in that respect hypocritical people say and believe lots of things but they'll do whatever is convenient for them in the moment and then and then it also changes like how i would criticize somebody and the types of claims i would allow another person to make so for instance if some like crazy hedonist guy that lives his life in like a fully hedonistic man or whatever would it tell me like hey man like you should just [ __ ] like smoke dope and [ __ ] do whatever blah blah blah yeah okay whatever bro i mean like i asked if you want to say it that's fine um but like if somebody else were to criticize me like let's say like a catholic priest that had been convicted for raping 100 children whatever it was like criticizing me like saying oh like this is immoral blah blah i was like damn dude i don't know if you could say [ __ ] like that like [ __ ] like you're insanely hypocritical like this yeah well i think i think hypocrisy is frustrating because it's really difficult to talk to people who are hypocritical especially people who are openly hypocritical that's sure so then so then my question is yeah so then my question is because when i look at your takes regarding landlords it almost feels like what it takes it almost feels so my words but the positions that i hold well i mean i i can never know what positions you hold based on what i've said do you just mean the tweets but yeah no no based on things that i've heard you say and the tweets that i've read um i don't remember specific videos ever going to watch but like there are a lot of landlords who i don't like it feels to me like you are probably in favor of the decommodification of housing and it almost feels to me like you believe that owning property is like an immoral thing that renting property to other people is an immoral action so if you don't believe that okay that's what it feels like and i think the majority of your audience that's listening right now probably would have thought that you felt that way if i had to guess that would be my guess i've talked about this before um but if my audience is confused on that then absolutely not if you have a spare property and you can rent it out to other people i mean try to do good with it but i don't think the problem the problem with what you're advocating for here is it feels like you're you're giving us a poisoned apple like ah socialists wouldn't you like to be consistent well make sure not to participate in any of the systems that beget political and economic power that that'll show capitalism now [ __ ] that okay stop winning i'm not gonna let you get away with this okay sure so my initial criticism was never that socialists couldn't participate in any system you're trying to weasel me into like it feels like i'm trying to ask yourself and you're trying to get to the name of the trailer wait no no no no no no no i have no i'm not trying to okay you can say that i misrepresented you if you feel the way i'm sorry but i literally have a notepad for now i'm trying to write down what you're saying and you're running it back in real time okay like what if i run back because like i'm trying to figure out like what type of behavior you think is permissible at one point in this argument you said that you would stop criticizing even jeff bezos like in terms of individuals i think if you want to like fix capitalism criticizing huh you wait do you agree that earlier you told me that you would you don't think it's fair to criticize jeff bezos but then you also said that mega billionaires you could criticize like wait okay hold on i don't have a problem with criticizing jeff bezos or any individual participant but i don't think that you're fixing capitalism by doing that jeff bezos just stepped down he got replaced by some other ceo criticizing individuals doesn't fix the problem you could criticize a million amazon ceos and there'd be a million at once okay the institutions perpetuate the existence of these i agree with you here okay sometimes you see a lot of things i agree with i agree with all of that but then earlier what i said what i said in response to what you just said and i feel like we're gonna do the same argument again i feel like if you say that you essentially lose the ability to criticize any individual actor in capitalism ever because they're just living their capitalist life unless they're literally doing something like illegal that's not true if you can't criticize bezos who the [ __ ] can you criticize it's not inherently immoral to participate in these systems but that doesn't mean you can't criticize people who do if they do something within those systems you don't like now i don't have a list if that's the case then what's wrong with me criticizing lefties then that don't put their money where their mouth is in that case why are we even talking then you should be totally fine with me criticizing any lefty that doesn't put their money where their mouth is what define putting your money where you're like spend their money in a way that i would consider to be more ethical than just hoarding in a savings account and getting rich off of people that are poorer than them that are being exploited by their bosses wait hold on is it true that you used to sponsor a loot box company real life loot boxes you can win all kinds of amazing prizes wallets headphones tech games real life loot boxes um i might have done like one activation once where i gave one away for free but i don't think i've ever done like loot box stuff okay let's just solve this link with your code and everything um the um there was a sponsor that i had once called loots but that was just like you like typed in a message and it showed an ad on stream but it it wasn't like loot boxes i don't know that's like it's not gaming yeah but i can look into this later i don't know i don't care i think people are complicated um and i think it's okay to wait hold on what was the thing i was responding to jeff bezos it seems like you can't criticize any individual ever like you just have to accept that all of them are do you let me okay hold on i don't think you should criticize a person just because they're participating in capitalism but i think there are things that you can do while participating in capitalism to warrant criticism like those landlords writing op-eds about how how how hard it is to make ends meet when they're trying to evict their tenants i think that's really scummy behavior why is it because in a pandemic i think it's bad to evict people who can't pay their rent because they were laid off because of the pandemic what if you can't pay your mortgage because a tenant isn't paying their rent and i think the institution you should take an issue with isn't the tenant but rather a government that's unwilling to pay you or to you don't have the ability to change the government why is it the responsibility of the landlord to fight the system but it's not the responsibility of a lefty to fight the system the landlord is just doing what he hold on that equivalency came out of nowhere so first of all what they were complaining about were laws passed to prevent eviction so to begin with they already were complaining about the government they were complaining in the wrong direction in both ways they would be complaining against the government but they were fighting to evict people rather than fighting to have the government provide for them because it sounds like the government was changing a law specifically to make it so that you couldn't evict somebody but i'm asking you because it sounds like the landlords are just trying to maximize their system in capitalism they're trying to be able to evict somebody all types of wait why do you this is what i mean when i say i feel like you're misrepresenting me i don't think all ways of maximizing your well-being within capitalism are equally ethical i think there are ways to maximize your well-being which are quite unethical okay hold on cause you keep doing this thing where you ask a question in a very exasperated manner and it makes you sound rhetorically effective so for my rhetorical effectiveness what's happening here is you don't actually have an underlying principle that you're uh that you're actually like um appealing to what you keep doing is you keep trying to make an excuse for every single thing to say like well here it's okay here it's not okay here it's okay excuse for i don't know every single thing so i have listened to every single thing you said but when i repeat it back to you you're getting confused because you're trying to discover these arguments in real time no because you you keep saying you keep saying that i've said you can never criticize an individual for their participation under capitalism which i have never at any point in this conversation said but you've repeated that back to me like a dozen okay okay we're gonna okay i'm gonna write this in and of itself participation in and of itself inherently participation is not a bad thing you can do those things in a morally neutral or even morally beneficial way however you can also do it in morally negative ways okay what makes it morally negative i think that for by my standard a morally negative way of engaging in this behavior would be well there are million out instances but i would say that i have in my head an image of how a lefty could be a business person or a landlord and if there are ways in which okay stop i need you to give me an actual threshold you can participate in capitalism in a morally neutral way that's a statement you've made but you said there's also negative ways to criticize now besides like obviously breaking the law what is a morally negative way because it sounds to me like what you what you go on to say because this is where you're getting caught i i don't mean calling we're trying to catch you but it's like we're we're running out you're saying that morally negative equals bad things you're like begging the question and then one of the examples that you gave were landlords lobbying the government and saying hey you need to undo this people during a pandemic yes yeah wait so wait is it just the eviction now or was it the law because earlier you said it wasn't the eviction that mattered you said it was the fact that it was a law that mattered so which one is the important thing is evicting someone is wrong because that's just living in a in a capitalist world i'm fighting op-eds to try to get the government to revoke laws to allow them to evict during a pandemic okay i didn't say the thing you're saying that i said i'd you anyone who's watching destiny or vosh side you can clip you can go back and watch okay i feel like i'm being ascribed positions now i understand that but remember earlier remember that are you listening to me i am listening to you very well my brain is working real quick so you're upset you're upset wait you're upset that landlords are lobbying the government this was one of the statements that you made in that earlier tweet where you said all of those things were jokes yes it was that they were writing op-eds lobbying the government go ahead that's not what lobbying means they might be of course sure there were some institutions that were doing that but yes they were pushing to regain the ability to evict unemployed people during a pandemic i think that's bad okay which part of this is morally wrong immoral what part of this is immoral so hold on wait wait hold on hold on unemployed we're not talking about my position here i can if you want after this we can walk through everything i think because i'll be glad i say a thing and then you say hold up that's not what you said and then you say a thing i didn't said and then we've been repeating this okay so that's what i'm writing remember okay so you so your statement is that this is bad landlords wanted to evict people unemployed wait sorry i put people in advice landlords wanted to evict unemployed people during a pandemic equals bad yes no i said landlords trying to get the government to revoke laws to allow them to evict people during a pandemic i think it's extra nasty if you're trying to fight against the state's effort to prevent people from dying on the streets okay which part of this is the moral wrong so lan so here's something i've written down for you okay landlords trying to get the government to revoke laws um to allow them to evict unemployed people during a pandemic if the law wasn't there do you think it would be morally neutral for them to evict unemployed people during a pandemic let me think if there was no law then i think it would be morally neutral yeah because we have to criticize the institutions first and foremost it's the responsibility of the state to put placeholds on stuff like this okay otherwise the natural market forces would dictate that they would continue to evict people unabated okay so the problem isn't trying to evict unemployed people during the company because this is what you keep hamming up to be very retargeting you're saying unemployed people during a pandemic but your problem gets bad okay but your problem isn't the fact that they're trying to evict unemployed people during a pandemic that action would actually be okay your problem is that they're trying to revoke the laws well the action would be bad but it would be a necessary component of the way commodified landowners hold on so that participation in capitalism would be inherently bad no that participation in capitalism would be as expected it would be morally neutral everyone would be doing it however the action which is taking place is still bad as you're evicting unemployed people during a pandemic so wait hold on okay so let me i'll give you an example okay um let me try to think of something analogous here okay um when police officers go out on the beat wait wait i don't think we need example can we just stick to the tenant i don't think we need because we're usually more confusing when police officers go out on the beat okay and they arrest a person for selling drugs i think that the drug wars cringe and that this is doing harm to society and blah blah however it is the job of the cop to do that thing and if a lefty was in that position and they did that thing whether or not they were there the other person who could have been that cop also could have done that thing the job institutionally is to fix the drug war not to expect that cops just ignore every drug dealer on the street now if they do do that if they choose to do that good thing i think that's preferable but the absence of a lefty there would still incur the morally neutral action which is adhering to the existing law okay does that make sense no can i sidestep and ask a question about that because i'm so confused if you can be replaced for doing a particular action does that mean that any action that you do is always going to be considered morally neutral that that action can't carry more away because someone else could just step in and do it regardless so let's say for instance there was a um let's say there's a bounty board and they pay people to assassinate kindergartners now you could go and accept that job and go kill a kindergartner would that be morally neutral because if you don't do it someone else is going to step in and do it instead no i don't think that's an institutional role that is obligated to be filled what if there's an institution of bounty hunting do you i i don't know enough about it i don't think that bounty hunting works the same way cops okay what about what about the institution of slavery then will go to a real-life world do you think that owning slaves then in the south that that was necessarily a morally neutral thing because it was just part of the system and if you were gone another slave owner would just step up no i think that it's worthwhile to criticize those institutions why the people who no no not the institutions don't being i am okay so just real clear i'm being very careful to be incredibly precise my language i'm asking you to do the same okay i'm not talking about the institutions and i'm not talking about how you feel i'm asking do you think it is morally neutral to be a slave owner for if you weren't a slave owner someone else would just step up and own your slaves for you do you think that would be morally neutral no i don't no i don't think slave owning was like a slot thing where like if you aren't owning the slaves then someone else steps up to own this i don't necessarily know if it works that way the reason why in the south the reason why i'm saying this about landlords and cops specifically is because the way those institutions work especially with landowning literally require that those institutions exist right you don't think the agricultural like uh economic organization of the south like required slavery to exist not in the same way an individual house in in a commodified housing system is either owned by an individual or or what that's it you either own it or you rent it out to some or a company owns it or something but with slavery there wasn't like institutional slots where it's required when you're a slave owner how is it not institutional they literally have like whole laws on the books regarding regarding like the ownership of slaves to a demand for slavery in a way that the housing market doesn't have if you're a if you're a um a land owner and you rent a property you can't like throw your hands up in the air and say like no i back out and then like that property disappears wait i don't i don't think that's i don't think that's relevant i'm just asking because it feels to me like you're falling back on this argument the argument that you're appealing to to figure out if something is worth like condemning or not is whether or not like somebody on an individual levels whether or not somebody else would step up to replace you so i think it's fair to say in the south slavery was a big institution and if you aren't going to it was a big institution but like if you own a collection of apartment buildings that someone has to own that like you can't otherwise it turns into a uh ranshack tenement like yeah sure but if you own slaves in the south like if we go before like the emancipation population or we go before like slaves or let it be free anywhere black people ought to be free anywhere somebody has to own those slaves it's not like you can just set them free right but the only reason slaves were brought across the atlantic was because there was a market demand for them over here if people didn't keep buying slaves then they wouldn't have had the transatlantic slave trade yeah but if you don't buy it someone else is literally requires those institutions but if you don't if you don't buy those slaves somebody else will not if there are fewer people buying slaves they bring less slaves over the atlantic okay if you're gonna make that argument then i'm gonna say if there are fewer people evicting tenants then there are fewer tenants being evicted or if there are fewer cops making drug busts then there are a few people getting arrested for doing drugs like that breaks your other two arguments you gave earlier no it would it would be good to not drug bust no don't do this equivocation i'm not saying it would be good not blah blah blah earlier you said that the action of evicting a tenant or the action well the action of petitioning the government to evict a tenant or the action of arresting somebody for drugs would be morally neutral because if you were to stop doing it somebody else would just step in the government the whole point of the institutional critique is to get the government to implement laws that make society better i don't think there's any justification whether or not you're participating in the system to fight against those laws when they're implemented my i'm just earlier it sounded like you were saying that like if a cop arrested people for having a bunch of weed arrested somebody having a bunch of wheat or if uh if a landlord wrote an op-ed criticizing the government for a law that these things those are not comparable to me oh those aren't comparable i'm sorry a landlord evicting somebody or a cop um arresting somebody for having weed these two things are morally neutral because if you weren't doing it someone else in your system would step up and do it and it seems to me that like if we go back far enough 300 years ago whatever if you owned slaves if you didn't own those slaves somebody else would buy them slavery was a huge part of the early us economy it was how a lot of our agriculture and [ __ ] got done that if you didn't own someone else so in that case my question is why wouldn't being a slave owner be moral if that's your way to justify what is morally because if you walk away from being a cop or a landowner somebody else will own that land or somebody else will take that police slot but you can you can free your slaves well actually given the laws of the south it was actually pretty difficult to free this side you cannot buy slaves you can just not do that they didn't slaves aren't a necessary component of the way that economic system worked wait are you sure about that absolutely i am and i would challenge any history phd to come on here and argue that slavery was as necessary and intricate a component of the southern economy as housing commodification is to our land market and cops are why did the south care so much about having slaves in it if they didn't because they wanted them but that doesn't mean that they were institutionally mandated the way orlando okay hold on you do recognize that there is literally no alternative to uh properties being rented we need not everything you do realize that the south literally had a [ __ ] civil war against the united states to defend slavery why do you think this wasn't what they felt was pretty necessary wait hold on hold on hold on do you think fighting a war for something is the same as something being institutionally necessary i think that it is the most institutionally necessary thing if you're willing to fight a war over it yeah of course that's not what institutionally necessary means the way what does it mean land markets work literally require the existence of landowners who rent properties the fact that the south was willing to fight people people fight wars of [ __ ] all the time that doesn't mean the thing they're fighting a war over is an institutional requirement of the way their system works i i felt like slavery was a so okay i'm sorry i could just be totally wrong so let me understand so you're telling me that slavery was just a hobby or a pastime of the south they didn't actually need it for any of their economic systems legitimately asking are you acting in bad faith right now because i think more of your intelligence than this do you really think there's no difference at all between the two things we're talking about i'm actually not kidding are you are you laughing right now i'm not looking at your cam i assume you've given up in this conversation i have not given up my assumption is that slavery was a an integral part to the south's economy and that anybody in this room let me finish hold on real quick anybody in the south would have said like we need slaves to make our [ __ ] [ __ ] work it's incredibly [ __ ] important to us it is so integral to our economy and our way of life and our way of being that we're literally going to [ __ ] fight a ward to defend our right mandated number of slaves in the south a mandated number i mean not by law i'm sure economically there is but not by law slaves we had n number of slaves and then one slave owner throws up their hands and they say i'm [ __ ] done owning slaves i am going to free my 100 slaves and now the south has n minus 100 slaves is there a necessary economic uh counter balancing effect which requires that a hundred additional slaves be purchased collectively by the south i mean where do you think those slaves went somebody else would just buy them up or kill them no what would happen if you they bought them up wait what why do you think there were so many slaves to buy up because people felt like they could put them to economic use what do you mean so if people stopped buying all of the slaves there wouldn't be a market for the transatlantic slave trade okay and if people stopped renting all houses then there would be no more wrong words you have to no you don't what do you mean how do you have to we you could just make everybody not rent a house what do you mean you don't have to do it where they live no no i mean when i say stop when i say rent a house or be a landlord or maybe i'm being unclear i mean like rent a house to another person you don't have to be a landlord you can just tell everybody stopping landlords so everyone has to buy the house they live in sure that's not possible for a wide number of reasons wait why not if if every person stopped like being landlords the how the price of houses would fall eventually necessarily would have to if there's not that many dollars chasing them the prices would come down because people would have to sell eventually or you you you think that you're to be clear hold on hold on hold on wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait i have to wait wait i gotta point this out i gotta point this out okay i have to point house you literally there was an example of me why everyone could just stop owning slaves okay so no okay i'm not going to let you pretend like my comparison is so unbelievable i'm not saying that michael president is so unbelievable when that was your argument you gave me okay so let's be real for a second okay let's be let's be clear okay so okay so let's be clear if everybody just stopped owning slaves if that was a thing that they did if they just stopped owning slaves the economic systems within the south back in in the antebellum south there are ways in which they could accommodate those changes because at the end of the day a slave is just labor that you're not paying or treating very well there are ways to change that and we know that because they did we fought a war and they lost and after they lost and there were no more slaves a different system was implemented and it worked well and there's a way there are ways that we could accommodate the absence of all landlords though what do you mean we can't accommodate the absence of all landlords in a commodified housing system because the way the modern world works does not allow for every single property a person could be living at to be purchased it absolutely could be what do you mean the government could have signed these houses to people the [ __ ] hold on wait hold on if that's the case if we're talking about the government assigning houses then i would agree how is that different than the government going south and murdering or not murdering but fighting a [ __ ] war with another [ __ ] country to get them to stop being slaves to do with war the government wait hold on just to be clear hold on i have to i'm going to have to talk about you if you're going to keep telling me i'm sorry because i have to get this because you're trying to do the rhetorical thing okay you're trying to make it sound like it is so unbelievable you're trying to make it sound like it is so unbelievable that the government could assign houses to people that's just unreasonable for me to ask but the encounter example that you're holding up is that in order to make people stop being slave owners they [ __ ] had a war over it so yeah if you're gonna say if you're gonna say you're gonna say if your willingness to fight a war over something is not a direct indicator of how institutionally necessary it was it's an indicator of how institutionalizer they thought it was how how maybe how they thought it was germany fought a war over lebensraum but they lost the war and they have their current borders and look at that germany still exists and you know what i bet i bet you know what i don't think it would work that well economically but i bet we could decommodify all housing and have it assigned to the government that probably worked too if we hold on if we did that then i would adopt your position if there was a push to decommodify housing or to allow government assignment of housing then i would change my position and say that it would be unethical to be a landlord period because in doing so you would be fighting against an institutional move to decommodify housing okay let's assume then for oh well because we're not going to do this let's assume that there was a country or a state mandated 1 million slave minimum and you owned the millionth slave do you think at that point then that it's morally neutral for you to own that site because if you stopped somebody else would just step up and they would own that slave instead if it was a mandated minimum number of slaves this feels like a bad faith clip moment but yeah i think that would be morally neutral yeah okay that's what i'm trying to figure if there's literally a mandated amount okay so it has to go down if you're the one that wants to save slave it's more literature okay that's all okay that's fine because now that's consistent okay so now going back then okay so i'm going to do so you do agree with this statement okay if okay wait i'm not trying to trap you i'm just i'm restating this to make sure that we want you to treat the slave well i think that would be nice okay but it would still be more neutral and that's all we care about okay you believe that if you can be replaced in an institution then any action that you do within that institution is necessarily morally neutral so long as you can be replaced with an institution that any act no not any action as long as you're acting the median as long as you're what you're doing what's expected you can do worse or better you're talking about an incredibly complicated uh uh a collection of thresholds i don't know if you're looking for like a price line or if you're looking for an itemized list of good and bad behaviors i don't know why you're laughing i'm trying to answer this no because you're like because do you think here's the thing listen when you're trying to figure when you're trying to figure out like a position or a stance or something when you have to add 50 million asterisks behind it i'm trying to you're adding so many different like qualifiers and exceptions and rules what qualifiers well you just told me that there's like a number of thresholds along which you can figure out if acting with an institution is even moral or not you know why because that way the presence of the lefty there doesn't bolster the institution if another person was in their place nothing would change okay so that's fine but even if there's a lefty they're treating his slave poorly it's not going to change anything if somebody else replaces him it's absolutely changing something for the slave dude okay then in that case it's not enough to just act normal because if you want to say that it's not enough to do that because the slaves being treated horrible what we should actually get is like a benevolent slave owner or a greater slave owner okay i could agree that but that means that being a normal lefty business owner is not good you need to go above and beyond so earlier when i gave the example of charging market rates for your rent it's not enough to charge market rates you need to go above and beyond and charge under market rates which one is it assuming right now i think well every time anything i'm giving you the logical contradictions between your statements every time people have asked me this i do say you should charge below market rates are you trying to ask me what percentage below or above i'm not asking you anything even remotely that specific i'm just trying to figure out what underlying inconsistent you've spent an hour probing a set of beliefs that i haven't wavered on in the slightest i don't know why this is so confusing or interesting to you i don't even know why we're talking about this we agreed on the base ideas we agree that if you're a lefty and you have access to means that it is good to do what you can to advocate for your political positions if a person chooses not to do that i think it's unfortunate but at the end of the day at least they're making good content on youtube or bad content if it's you because you don't like the same stuff that i like i imagine and if they do especially bad stuff with the power they accrue through their wealth and i think that's bad and you would think that's bad because you don't like bad things i don't know why this is so disagreeable if you want if i i don't think it's just i don't think about it for depending on time well so my disagreement would be that i think that if somebody has we okay we can forget everything we just said move to the next stage i still don't know what you think in the prior stage so i might come up again quick thing okay do you think okay wait hold on chat's going to be me do you think child slavery is good or bad do i think child slavery is good or bad well if there's so many ways that we could define this just going to school count as a slave in general i think child slavery is probably not true it's not like i would say child slavery is probably bad yeah okay i agree that child slavery is bad i'm glad we agree on that that's good now now there are more slaves around on earth today than there have been at any other point in human history they're all over the world um and the supply lines that we get our stuff from it relies on child slavery so i think that it's bad that those things happen that when i buy a thing when i buy a computer or an iphone or something i look at that and it's like [ __ ] like this came from a sweatshop or something or like some something misfortune touched this item at some point alone along the line do you is that a feeling you get do you ever think like it would be better it would be a better world if that wasn't the case if i could rely on fair market treatment for everything that i buy for sure okay i completely agree with that and institutionally you think we should push for fair labor rights all around the world to the extent that we can okay do you i mean do you agree with that yeah i think so but you think it's it's probably okay for people to like buy an iphone okay yeah okay that's the general vibe that i get here i think that these institutions are generally harmful and should be institutionally opposed okay i understand this let me ask you this question okay do you agree that buying an iphone that might have been made by a slave at some point that's an unfortunate thing that we should try to avoid right i don't i don't this isn't a tricky question it's just the person for getting an iphone i'm sure but like if we could avoid it it'd be nice to would it's like yeah sure do you think that that carries the same moral weight as locking a slave in your basement and forcing that child to build you an iphone do you think these two things are the same or do you think that it's a little bit different that one is worse than that i think those are different okay that's my issue my issue isn't that a lefty merely exists in a system where maybe he buys something from a child slave my issue is when they have the slave in the other room working for them and then when you say well hold on dude isn't that kind of crazy like whoa bro you've bought iphones that are touched by slaves as well it's the same thing that's my problem my issue is my issue isn't that lefties just exist in a capitalist society and they're just you know well you know you can't help it my issue is that there are things that you can help you could pay workers a lot of money you could advocate for certain causes you could put your money where your mouse or some things but you choose my perspective yeah from my perspective what is unethical about a lefty owning a business a lefty owning a business by default isn't unethical but if they own the business and they run it like any other capitalist why wouldn't you okay owns a business and has wage slave employees okay what about that is i think that's unethical i think that if you own a business it should be a co-op and you should be using your money to put up to prove the concept and to run it in a moral way if you believe that exploitation of workers that paying a wage and collecting a profit off of your employees is necessarily bad you should have a rev share profit share um employee stock program to negate that from happening you shouldn't be collecting i agree that is the thing you should do but again no no no no no hold on hold on wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait i'm not hold on i'm not using the vosh capillary here okay i'm in destiny world i'm saying that it would be unethical not i wouldn't like it or i'd prefer that i'm saying it would be unethical in my opinion if you're a leftist it would be unethical to run a business where you are a capitalist extracting uh surplus labor that would be unethical not i wouldn't like it or i would prefer not i say it would be unethical and i think it would be ethical it'd be morally righteous be to run a business in a way that that complies or comports with the ethical system that you have who is the recipient of the harm for what with that for that example if if you run a business the recipient of the home would be the workers the laborers okay and if you didn't start a business where would they be working i i don't know somewhere else somewhere else and if you started a business and they had an opportunity to work at your place or another and they chose yours when they could have had another what would your absence have meant to them the absence would have meant that you weren't the one committing the immoral action so there's no actual change in the harm done to the world is that correct correct okay but that that doesn't matter though it is the only thing that matters to me if you're out in a crowded area no no no no you don't even agree with me just if your participation in these systems and let's be perfectly clear here okay the crime of capitalism is not that there are businesses that are privately owned the crime is that there is nothing but whether or not a lefty chooses to open a business has no bearing on the existence of capitalism and it also does nothing but this may sound like a capitalist argument but i do believe this expand the opportunities for workers in the region because they have n plus one places to potentially work at though furthering their opportunities and potentially giving them a better shot okay let's say a business only adds utility it doesn't derive it whether or not you're a lefty the problem is you committing the action that you deem immoral you can't use the system as well i don't think that's immoral okay fine so here's a question you enter a shady business okay let's say that there is a woman she's locked in a [ __ ] cage and it says not gonna be freed until she's raped you know that no matter what happens somebody has to rape that woman in order to get freed it doesn't matter if you do it if someone else does it not going to dignify these hypotheticals with your moral system whether or not you do the immoral act oh you know what just because it's you we'll go for a less a toned down one let's say that you walk across somebody's car and let's say that on their car seat you see that their window is down and their wallet's laying on their car seat if you steal that wallet are you just as like okay to do it as anyone else because anybody else could walk by and steal the wallet like is it okay for you to do it cause someone else will steal it if you don't do you think those are comparable yes it was the exact same thing there was a wallet on a seat in a car you walk by the windows down if you don't steal it someone else is going to steal it do you think that you might as well steal it because somebody else could opening a business and giving wage slaves the opportunity to work and be wage slaves at a different place forcing compelling no one coercing no one only implicitly through capitalism and market forces to work at your place this is the same to you as wait you're giving the most based libertarian and cap anarcho-capitalist takes right now when i open a business i don't force anyone to work for me they do it by their own volition you know that's not true and capitalism you have no choice but to work with you that's why i said except for the expl the uh implicit coercion of capitalism in a market system what's the point of me qualifying okay maybe i'm missing i'm sorry it feels like you're giving like and cap takes on like running a business well if i don't own the business like do you hate the global poor like don't you want to give them an opportunity to work somewhere like you acknowledge that my argument that what i'm saying doesn't contribute harm to the world the net utility only increases my problem is that if you have an actor with a specific ethical system i think that it would be morally wrong not to act and congruence with it so what i'm saying is so in your world it sounds like anybody walking by the car you might as well take the wallet because any other person would be but what i would say is you shouldn't take the wallet wait wait wait you could just what you could just not wait what yeah you could not take the wallet in that case you could just not open the business well then where are people going to work another person will open the business you don't have to what difference does that make so then what difference does it make if you take the wall people need jobs nobody needs their wallets that's not relevant here we're not talking about the particular thing if it's neither necessary no no that's not what we're talking about everybody refrains from stealing the wallet nobody steals the wallet and everything is fine if nobody opens the business there are no jobs and capital somebody is going to if there is okay if there's a hundred dollar bill on the floor somebody's gonna take it you're saying that if somebody else walks by and takes it because your arguments earlier was does the net harm or the net good in the world change well if not then it doesn't [ __ ] matter that's what you said picks up the hundred dollar bill everything remains fine but if nobody opens a business we don't have an economy and we all go back to trading rocks wait then why don't you use the same argument then for the for the cop if like the cops shouldn't arrest the person for smoking there's a difference between expecting everybody to act very well within an institution and abstaining from participating in that institution altogether and the analogies that we're providing not opening a business and not taking the 100 bill off the ground or abstaining entirely whereas you just said what if every cop just did really good in their job i think that'd be fantastic okay i'm gonna give you this analogy from all three perspectives okay sure and it lines up with everyone okay so in world one i would say that all three of these actions we can say are immoral okay it can be one arresting somebody for having marijuana is immoral because you are acting in a way that i think is shitty if you're like a socialist or a moral person even if you're in that system i think it's bad so one is arresting somebody for weed okay [ __ ] you you have a discretion you have a discretion as a cop you don't have to do that okay number two stealing somebody's wallet you don't have to steal their wallet even if someone else can still [ __ ] it don't do it that's bad okay and then three opening a business and exploiting your workers by collecting wage slaves uh you don't have to do that either okay you don't that's wrong if you're a socialist okay all three of those wrong now that's on all three levels that's wrong morally wrong now morally neutral okay i guess morally neutral would be the cop um i guess meeting his quota if he has to arrest somebody because a friend like radioed it in okay fine that's morally neutral you're existing in a way you have to exist in the system okay um for the lefty um i can't think of a morally neutral way to open a business um i guess maybe you just don't open a business you just don't do anything and you let somebody else step by and open a business oh or actually i'm sorry well say the cop doesn't arrest somebody maybe somebody else stops by he never becomes a cop okay or for the lefty the lefty never opens the business and then or for the wallet guy the wallet guy like never steals the wallet he never walks by and everything's well just does nothing or whatever um but then on the on the ethically like high side like these would be good things to do on all three levels the cop could like not only could the cop not arrest somebody or not be a cop the cop could tell somebody like hey throw that away like there are other cops to come by right he could try to help people that are drugs like hey like go check in somewhere do something good as a cop right or two the lefty business owner could open a co-op he could open a business and say hey um we're actually going to do rev sharing if you work here during rush hour you're going to pay like six dollars or more because we're making more money or for the guy that sees the wallet the guy could go into the car take the wallet and then find the owner and say like hey dude your car was open here's the wallet like this is this is all three levels of like moral action so you could either act morally wrong or you could disengage from the system completely or you could act morally right i think that i can i think that i can encourage people to act morally righteous i don't think it's fair to say well if he doesn't open a business and act in a bad way someone else would just open the business no he could open the business and act in a good way if these are truly what his ethics are you could do that yes you could be good yes but the but then with the neutral of the disengagement thing if you have principles i don't think that's good i think that's bad i i'm really i just if you walk by a car and if you in fact if you walk by the car that the neutral option for a lefty opening a business would be to not open that business which i obviously disagree with i i'm sorry if there's some irreconcilable difference that we're not going to resolve here then we might as well not waste an additional hour on it if you acknowledge that when a lefty opens a business and let's say pays market rates same as everyone else and the workers are treated fine really middle of the road as hard as that is to abstract all you are doing in a purely empirical sense is giving local workers an additional choice uh uh an additional place that they could sell their labor to an unethical institution unfortunate but you are not compelling or mandating or directing any direct harm if you didn't do that there would be no benefit but if you have the means to do now if you have the means to act in a way that's more accordance and more no if you have the means to act in harmony with your principles then for you to do less i genuinely think that your perspective on this issue has been tainted or corroded in some way by the people that you've argued online if it's been tainted or corroded by anything it's by the fact that i went to a jesuit high school and what part of what we taught i guess was like that you should live your principles that maybe that's the corrosion here yes but what the differences are you weren't accurately describing my principles well your principles is that as long as someone else is going to step up and [ __ ] somebody over you might as well do it yourself it's not bad to do it it's done by [ __ ] somebody over because someone else could just do it yes there is harm it is necessarily exploitative to have wage slaves that is harmful to them exploitative even if they're not working at your place they'll work in another one but if you are participating and encouraging and furthering that system by owning a business and exploit that that that interaction isn't necessarily being a utilitarian it's not a it's no all of the arguments that you've been making have rung dantological to me if that's yours it's not your dig that's fine but your understanding of what i think is hypocritical or what i think is wrong or incorrect is just not the case maybe a lot of other lefties would agree maybe a lot of other lefties would say yeah owning a business as a lefty is hypocritical and if that's the case you can roast the [ __ ] out of them if you have the means to do something more in harmony with your ethical principles so then that as a utilitarian that's what we should be encouraging everybody to do but what is the difference between the obligatory good and the superrogatory what must one do to avoid being bad or what is simply good to do voluntarily you know donate all of their income no come on don't [ __ ] throw something dog [ __ ] argumentability what dog [ __ ] argument i never said you have to donate all of your [ __ ] never said you said it i was trying to provide an example everybody's bringing them well not everyone most people believe that you should give to the needy or the poor the homeless very often people give a couple of dollars to a busker outside of their work but very few people if any donate everything so somewhere between a and b there's a line now i personally think that we don't have an institutional obligation to provide any given amount to charity but i think it's good when people decide to do that as a lefty i don't think you have any moral obligations apart from the expectations that i would assign other people it is to me additive it is a benefit it is an extra good if they use their platform their power their voice to advocate for leftism and it's one i advocate for quite a bit because obviously i want to win but i don't think it's bad i don't think it's a moral wrong for a person to believe a thing but not dedicate their life to or even a substantial number of their resources to advocating for that thing i don't think that's a moral wrong and i don't think it's hypocritical to open a business and no matter how many times you try to cram hypocrisy down my throat i stand by you okay years ago i represented my positions multiple times i'm trying to write down what you're saying every time and it's [ __ ] like morphing in front of me okay what have i morphed on i for in terms of like oh we can go back in the debate hold on i want to ask you a question we need to go back no no no no no no i'm avoiding i'm avoiding going back by not saying what i think you've changed on because then it's gonna cost you back here's i have a simple question for you okay let's say that there are 10 people okay they're gathered on the beach and unfortunately today there is a lost soul okay he's a hundred meters out this guy is [ __ ] and none of the people on the beach they're not good enough swimmers to go get him okay now let's say another guy walks by okay this guy is called chad marks okay some people call him charles marks okay this guy is a [ __ ] state champion swimmer and he walks by and he sees that kid out there do you think that that guy with his additional means with all that he has available to him do you think that it would be just as morally neutral for him to stand by and watch that person drown as the other 10 less capable people on that beach could he simply say i mean i don't have like an obligation it would be good if i did but like i mean i could just sit here and watch it happen i don't think it's bad it's just morally neutral by saying you're watching if he has the means otherwise he's analogous no no okay i should go out and save the person okay why is that dis analogous okay because if that they decided not to do that thing if they decided to abstain it would cost a person their life whereas in the case of a lefty opening a business their decision to open it would not add any negative utility to the world so in that case we're we're talking about for a lefty it's either you abstain and you have nothing or you participate and you have nothing assuming you don't do extra bad direction okay that's not if they abstain you have a death and if they participate you have that that's that's not at all material participation and abstinence in these two examples met very different outcomes well participation in a morally righteous way and the swimming one could result in saving somebody's life participation in a righteous way in the economic sense could be you opening a business that improves the material conditions of multiple other workers and families i think those are common i think that'd be great okay abstinence in one sense is you just stand by and you watch a person drown and abstinence which is negative and abstinence in the business sense is you just stand by and you watch another business open up and exploit workers which would be neutral but the death is negative how is that okay i never ever ever want you to say again that like capitalism is negative or business owners are bad because you understand my argument enough i guess not because you've bit the neutral bullet on basically every single actor in a capitalist system so wait let me just clarify this you believe that any person that opens a business and pays market wages to somebody all of that that capitalist that opens up is that person is morally neutral they're not committing a wrong at all even if they have the means to do otherwise what do you mean the means to do otherwise like say they're very wealthy or they could run their business in another way but let's say they choose the more the most exploitative option where they're just paying wages no stock options something like that but it's like normal what other like shitty [ __ ] customers so i don't know what you mean by most exploitative if they just open up like a regular like place then i think that would be preferable to them hoarding their wealth if anything at least that would give other people jobs okay i mean still think the system would be negative of course but now if they were especially exploitative with how they manage that business like uh they paid like below market wages or they union busted that's a big no-no or they um corroborated with other industries in the area to try to funnel labor towards them but then drove down like that kind of stuff then that would be bad i would not like that okay i don't know why are you so obsessed with you've so this isn't even about what's good or bad for society it is about what's good or bad for society i think that people shouldn't socialist so i hear what i think is good no but i'm still i still think i'm a better capitalist than most [ __ ] at least encapsulated but i try to live my principles and i think that it would be unethical for me to maximize my existence in a capital society i've turned on a lot of money for stuff that would maximize my existence in capitals because i think it's unethical to do so i don't agree that like because it doesn't further what i believe in and it doesn't further what turned down i've turned down a ton of [ __ ] gambling sponsorships there was so much money flying around and the cs go skin days there was so much of that [ __ ] that i [ __ ] turned down so you've turned okay good and you've turned down and i for my part i've turned down every sponsorship because why it's not a part of my aesthetic i don't want to okay wait then don't make those things the same don't don't wait wait don't compare that to me okay you're on a lower level there okay i intentionally no no no no no no no no no no no hold on hold on hold on hold on i intentionally have foregone money that i could use otherwise because it is in accordance with my principles okay you're not doing it because it doesn't fit the aesthetic that you sell on your youtube channel don't compare those two things those two things are very different i'm not a cuck and i don't want to no no no no no no no no no no no stop don't walk back what you said earlier okay whatever aesthetic that you sell that's called a brand okay so if you're doing something to help your brand that's different than me making an ethical choice about which companies i engage with i wouldn't like to lose money or followers by accepting sponsorship i don't i'm just saying don't like doing it that's fine i'm not fixating on the language i'm talking about the ideas right now okay you're literally dick measuring with me i am not pointing out i said like hey we're having a conversation about ethical behavior in a particular system and i'm talking about behaviors that i think i exhibit that are ethical if you want to call that dick measuring that's fine but this is the conversation that you showed up it wasn't dick measuring it was dick measuring when i said like oh i don't accept sponsorships because i think they're cocked or whatever and then you got mad at me for for equivocating yeah because you're trying to say that these two things are similar then they're not if i i was okay wait i understand holy [ __ ] you're being bad faith now just as well do you think that if we were having a calmer conversation and that interaction had taken place that you would have responded the way that you just did yes i because i'm trying i'm trying to be more careful especially with you because you've done the rhetoric thing way better than me in the past so 20 21 40 like you almost just said today you're on my way i don't know if you realize you're doing it like intentionally or not it might be some country but you almost just sit there what are you talking about to try to imply that what i just said was so crazy no you go you go for it you wait no i am defensive because i have to be you guys know what you mean so okay i can explain it to you if you give me one second talk to you you engage your rhetoric no i intentionally have not engaged with rhetoric for the majority of my creation i'm trying to do i've seen you say this before you don't know what rhetoric means rhetoric doesn't mean that you engage in a superfluous language or hyperbole no stop wait hold on rhetoric is just the art of persuasion that's all it means is persuading somebody for something that's what rhetoric is you're arguing with me that's an active no it is absolutely not when i argue genuinely believe this is like um dude most of my argument is literally like propositional and like analytical logic okay that is not rhetorical that's rhetoric no no you're wrong or do you not sell an aesthetic of logical argumentation to some extent sure yeah okay rhetoric the way you phrase things the way you decide to make arguments that's not it isn't rhetoric or logic rhetoric is just the way you deliver your information and i have at no point during this conversation sacrificed the sincerity of my argument for the benefit of getting cheap points over you in fact if anything i would say that you laughing and then busting out arguments about raping women in cages or owning slaves is a much more effective rhetorical tactics yes i agree i agree i am trying to i am true yes because i am explicitly trying to be more rhetorical effective i gave examples i had the decency to lay out examples that i thought were reasonable pragmatic and something we could all be that's great but you still play you play a rhetorical game incredibly effectively and i'm trying to play on that level now i am trying to play on that level now so i'm not going to let you walk over with these crazy examples right any level okay stop the disagreement that we had earlier is you asked me because you you said this in a very insulting way i don't know if you realized that or not okay but you were like what have you actually turned down you said that and then i gave an example okay i've turned down gambling sponsorships i also pay exorbitant wages better than anyone else in the industry i pay way better than any other person here okay so those two things and then and then you said oh well i don't take sponsorships either and i'm like wait really you're like yeah it's part of my aesthetic do you understand that that is an insult stop calling it dick measuring you're trying to demean okay with the comparison okay that comparison to me was insulting because i don't not take certain sponsorships because of my aesthetic i do it because of my principles those two things are very different that's what upset me do you understand when i said when i said aesthetic i suppose you wouldn't buy me saying as a lefty i don't like the idea of um doing leg work for corporations to advertise products that i don't give a [ __ ] about but you would say that's walking back because what i actually believe is that it's purely an aesthetic flourish and me fleshing it out now that i realize you've been made upset by my language is the thing is what i would say is i wouldn't believe you because that's exactly right that's right because the problem is because because yeah okay that's great you don't care but when you when you have the opportunity to say it initially like it's my aesthetic and i think that's probably closer to the reality i think it i think that is two things one is your aesthetic and two is because you don't have to deal with [ __ ] sponsor [ __ ] telling you what you can i kind of say that's probably what it is though but now but now when you're trying to come out with like well actually it's because i don't want to do the legwork for major corporation but i don't believe that i don't buy that okay i know i know you don't but that's because you've assigned me so little charitability no it's because the first response is is the most likely to be the honest time during this conversation where i've said that i don't believe something that you've told me the entire conversation by the way has been about you trying to assign hypocrisy to my beliefs the majority of this conversation and you know what [ __ ] [ __ ] will go over you know what i'm looking forward to book [ __ ] going to this i have tried so [ __ ] hard to understand your positions in this i've tried to say that's confusing i've tried to write down how many times have you said like you're smarter than this are you acting in bad things i legitimately am disappointed yes okay you can say that's a rhetorical flourish if you like but i watched your content for long enough to remember when you were better than this i honestly think that your engagement with the online left has made you the fact that you've abandoned what brings about good or bad utility in favor of like holding lefties to some assigned degree i don't know how you turned into such an absurd consequentialism you became a [ __ ] and cap that thinks that like opening businesses and exploiting that's what you're saying 100 we're like yeah [ __ ] it if i don't do this business someone else is going to do it i have way higher ethical standards than that you're the one that's coming and then you're literally using the like what about the global points you're literally using the what about the global poor argument do you understand that when you say like if i don't open a business well someone else like if i open a business i'm giving those people somewhere to work that's what people use as excuses for sweatshops for slave shops in [ __ ] china i was like well at least we're getting them some places do you think institutionally there might have been an alternative to the way that the global north uses the global south i i don't understand this question okay so if you're a mega corp or if you're a government do you think there might have been an institutional alternative to the current relationship that we have with the global poor like right now we have this sweatshops are better than subsistence farming but do you think there might have been maybe a more stringent advocacy for labor rights or like of course yeah i think so yeah for sure okay so the problem that i have with sweatshops aren't guys who are working at the sweatshops or managers at the sweatshops who are counting fat stacks of yuan while smoking a cigarette what i care about are the people in power who allowed that set of institutional forces to take place there i can't i feel like i've been incredibly consistent on this point like on every example given but we're not even arguing over what you believe or what you think is good or bad you just keep telling me what it's hypocritical for a lot first of all the majority of this conversation has been me just asking you questions and then pointing out what i'm perceiving i have answers contradictions and all i'm saying and all i'm saying is that i think i don't think it's enough to simply exist when the system is unethical i think we can find if you disagree with me on that that's fine just stop trying to poke holes in my argument if your belief is that lefties should do better that's fi i actually i could be wrong in this i don't feel like i've ever impugned your argument on that a single time i'm only trying to explain how i think if you think they held to a higher standard yes then sure okay that's all i'm saying and i think that if you're a lefty and you make a [ __ ] ton of money in this society you should do something with act better than a capitalist would that's all i'm saying okay what do you mean by should because you're apparently not a utilitarian anymore so i don't know we normative ethics has nothing to do with this conversation okay i think that you ought to i think that you have anything to do with what's good or bad in the context of real world behavior it's because we're not even at the level of discussion discussing normative systems of ethics right now it's not relevant we're talking about okay what i'm saying is that am i misremembering what normative ethics means hold on because if we really wanted to write this down no because if we really wanted to write this down we could get to both of our answers using some form of consequentialism or some form of dantology if we wanted to that's what not that you disagree with mine by the way if you just disagreed with me that'd be fine you keep trying to say that i'm inconsistent which bothers me because i try to put a lot of time into the things that i believe and i've tried to in good faith explain them to you i don't know why we would even take it because if we were to take if we were to take a consequence if we were to take the person ever in any instance in my life okay if we would if you really want to talk about consequentialism that bad okay if we were to take a consequence i want to talk about why this matters to you dude why it matters to me is because i think that people that have the means to do so have a higher calling to do so and i think it is ethically wrong for you to float through life and act like every other person if you have one do it then what why shouldn't everyone everyone consistent misogynistic world view that women are property sure if that's part of their world view then yeah then why do you that's why wait you realize that i got banned from twitter i got banned i got banned from twitter because i made fun of all writers for being [ __ ] like half persian or half serbian or [ __ ] half indian because that's stupid it's hypocritical wait hold on there's a difference between making fun of a person for being hypocritical which is fine and always okay and saying it's good if a person is consistent even if their consistent values would lead to a lot more harm in the world so i just want to be really clear because i don't want to misrepresent you you think it's good if people are consistent even if that consistency has them following up and doing things which are unethical i i mean i think it's good to be consistent but i don't think it's good to do unethical things i don't know how i'm supposed to answer this okay so consistency is good but unethical things are bad i mean i guess that's kind of total logical um so you think that lefties should if they open a business it should be like a co-op revenue share that kind of thing because that's a more ethical okay do you think that would be more ethical for anyone to do um not necessarily because i actually don't think that co-ops are like the i don't think that's like the best thing to do not necessarily i just can't i can't imagine what would drive you to be so insistent on advocating that a group of people with a different set of political ideologies be consistent in a way that i don't think you fully understand to achieve an end that you don't even agree with this i actually can't fathom what roads we've walked i look behind me and i see a maze because why can't we just talk about it it's so simple because if you're advocating for something and you don't live what you advocate for it makes it feel like you don't actually care about what you're saying that every single person who owns a business uh should turn that business into a worker co-op yeah how many people how many people wait wait wait how any lefty that has talked for the mass decommodification of housing and is [ __ ] on landlords relentlessly you can't decommodify housing by being a nice landlord that's an institution no but you could sell up you could just refuse to take part in that institution how by not owning property and running it to other people and somebody else there's a finite amount of land somebody else buys it you don't dictate how construction companies set up that doesn't just because somebody else would do something doesn't make it moral for you to do it well it means you're not adding to harm in the world it doesn't matter it is well actually because now you're like taking part of and furthering a system you're driving up prices in that system you're creating more competition i mean like somebody else buys it then they further prices yeah but that's one less person chasing that real estate market prices are gonna fall okay i don't necessarily think that's how that works well i wouldn't understand you to understand that because this is finance 101 and it's apparently left these donors says if every single left-leaning patronization dude how many times have you asked me i thought you were smarter than this because i okay you're literally saying you don't believe in supply and demand right now what do you mean you literally are telling me i don't believe in supply and demand that's what you're telling me no i'm not telling you that i don't believe in supplied man i'm telling you that an individual actor deciding to not purchase a plot it's not an individual actor though it would be all left all lefty people we're only talking about individuals you're only responsible for what you do sure and you probably if if you believe that an action is inherently immoral that particular action okay i never said it but you i don't keep saying if but i don't you don't that's fine if you don't but i'm saying that if it argues with other lefties why are you saying i'm a hypocrite because you attacked my tweet attacking other lefties that's why we're having this conversation vosh my tweet no no no no no no no my tweet my tweet my tweet on my tweet was not aimed at you i didn't mention you in that tweet you came here and you attacked my tweet me of being hypocritical other lefties hey destiny next time just say other lefties are inconsistent and are willing to further their own interests in a system that they would otherwise uh individually condemn people for to which i will say yes on land leftists are [ __ ] stupid i am so i get more of their [ __ ] than you do now because you've you you you don't participate in politics anywhere near as much well you do in real life actually more than ever before but online i get their [ __ ] now more than anyone else let's go let's go back then and let's reread my tweets after we've had this whole conversation i'm curious what you disagree with what are your tweets tweet no the ones that you were going over on stream number one online socialists so i'm specifically talking about online socialists by the way i even say this week online social media i don't have a good enough money oh well i'm just i was reading it here i'll link it to you here you go i just have to yeah okay there it is okay right there okay online socialism i don't want you to know how much money they make because they want to constantly trick you into thinking they're on your side their rhetoric is much more effective when they can start their calls to action with we need to instead of you need to do you disagree with any part of this okay the next tweet is no way sorry i don't have a problem with them doing that i do have a problem with your tweet okay what's your problem with my tweet yeah saying we need to do x is way more rhetorically effective than you need to can you imagine if bernie sanders was like uh you all need affordable healthcare i'm fine i'm wealthy like no if you're if you're a populist um then naturally your statement should ring with the interests of the people i don't think it's dishonest to do that do you think that it might come off as a bit disingenuous when you present yourself as a working man that's rallying alongside your viewers when you're extraordinary working man then yes but if you're forthcoming with your income as i try to be and you say stuff like we need a higher wage in this country okay stop where you're at right now why are you talking about somebody being forthcoming with your income when i literally the top say socialists that don't want you to know how much money they make i'm not talking about that i'm talking about people they think that your tweet gives the impression that like um hold on online socialists don't want you know how much money they make because they constantly trick you and think they're on your side okay we can go on this point by point okay okay first of all yeah okay so first let's yes so because they want to constantly trick you into thinking they're on your side i think this is completely inaccurate reading of the reason why they hide their incomes to the point of being like delusional um the reason why they hide it is because they're a bunch of dumb [ __ ] online lefty 14 year old tumbler exiled [ __ ] who will attack anyone who they say making more than 50 000 a year off of patreon and accuse them of being traders to the revolution now i do still think that online leftists should show their income i've been very clear about that i've talked about that even to people who hide their income in private but i don't think it's because they're trying to constantly trick you i think they're just trying to avoid drama this assigns a lot of malice and a lot of duplicity that i don't think is present um okay hold on one quick okay do you think that this is like do you think that this reads a little bit disingenuously looking at the right my flatmates and i are writing to our landlord to tell them we won't be paying rent in april due to the pandemic here's a template you can use if you need to do the same and a list of things to bear in mind good luck you don't think that this person is like making it sound like they need to get like out of paying rent due to the pandemic the ignoring the fact that they're literally doing this to somebody that is probably making far less money than they do um i don't necessarily have an issue with people calling for a rent strike and using collective languages that's not what we're talking about i do think that it's bad that they hide their income though i think that's the big definer here i think that if you show your income then i think that's totally this is not the what i'm saying is is she is making it sound like she literally like won't be paying rent due to the pandemic ignoring the fact that the land lord makes less than them i would say that this is a trick into making somebody think that they're on their side this is what i'm referring to i think that my first statement is outside what wouldn't she be on their side i mean she's a lefty what do you mean on is she not as in has the same struggles has the same class problems has the same like problem affording rent when that's not the case there is definitely an implication here that they can't afford their rent that i do find a bit unsavory this is why i really wish they would show their income but the general like we should do x language i think is perfectly acceptable stop i don't think we're you you made it compare hold on hold on i have to do this because i can't let you get the rhetorical wins i'm sorry because you're why are you accusing me of rhetorical women because you are because you you're doing no no no no you might not realize you're doing it but i'm i'm listening for it now and i'm hearing it more okay earlier you used the comparison of bernie sanders when bernie says something like we need free health care we need free blah blah blah bernie sanders is not presenting himself as a fellow poor in fact i'm almost positive that i've heard bernie sanders say i think word for word the average american should have the same health care that i have in the senate i'm pretty sure he said that word for word i think i've heard me say that so you're comparing so stop me yes so this is why i'm calling this a rhetorical one me is because it's a disingenuous comparison when bernie sanders says we need to do this that's different i don't think bernie sanders would come out and say we need to go on strike and stop paying our mortgage i'm writing a letter to my landlord saying i'm not going to pay the mortgage i don't think bernie sanders would [ __ ] say that that's what i'm saying that's what i'm talking about you can try to divert okay but abigail's tweet here come on abigail's tweet here abigail's tweet here is not comparable to bernie sanders statement abigail's tweet here is a trick into thinking that she is on your side that is my first statement i think it has been sufficiently justified i don't like the use of the term your side because it implies that she has malicious intent or politically disagrees if you wanted to say the language of this tweet gives the mis it gives the mistake an impression that she's struggling more financially than she probably actually is then i think i would agree with that would you mind this tweet if she had her income publicly known and it was something that she referred to in her videos like i'm quite privileged but she does it in like a british voice you know no if she made her income publicly known and she like wasn't ultra privileged then i could be more understandable but if she made like her and she was privileged but but she talks like it's she's forthcoming with the information oh i i'd be a little bit better with it but i this would still be really irritating to me but i'd be slightly moved but sure that would make it fine by me i actually reading over this specifically i'll agree that i think this language is a little bit irresponsible i don't really think much harm is being done here because i i mean i'm fine with the idea of collective rent strikes or i was back at the beginning of the pandemic okay so going through on the next statement their rhetoric is much more effective when they can start their calls to action with we need to instead if you need to despite them never actually doing anything to further anyone's material conditions but their own i have a problem what what's where's this tweet um it's just oh here it is i see it was the case yes so i think it's a little bit strange if you call yourself a lefty and you present yourself as being poor and the way that you sustain yourself is with donations from exploited workers that are in a lower material condition she portrayed her being poor i don't think she do you want to re do you want to read through her breakdown of the money that she makes and how she tries to lead people into thinking that like she oh i give you two examples i saw that okay okay so then she does kind of lead people into things she's supposed also remember when she was literally tweeting out like oh no i can't afford to pay for closed captioning anymore like this is horrible well that was probably just her saying i no longer feel it's worth the monetary investment that you are being so unbelievably charitable i'm i'm just running with what i think are fair interpretations you're so you're running the distance right now and charitable i'm not wait wait wait wait hold on hold on what i'm saying is that's probably the reason she tweeted that i sincerely doubt that she literally couldn't afford to do that um i agree she should be more responsible with her wording she made it sound like it was literally business impossible we can go find the exact tweets and somebody wants to link them i don't care enough to dig through that but okay well they're important to justify my argument so if you're you cared enough to criticize my tweet so i care enough to justify it you haven't even gotten through these tweets hold on okay so hold on all right because they want to constantly trick you into thinking they're on their side i think this is incredibly uncharitable and based on somebody who's in bread tube despite by some people's accounts and who talks the bread tubers i just don't think this is an accurate description of why they do what they do you assign a lot of malice here their rhetoric is much more effective when they can start their calls with action to we need to rather than you need to that is completely true that's populism 101. uh despite them never actually doing anything to further anyone's material conditions but their own this is pretty dumb to me i don't know what furthering other people's material conditions has to do with calls to action like this this just seems like a limp gotcha you don't think it's strange that somebody might say over and over again we need to do something to improve people we need to do something and then meanwhile they just collect hundreds of thousands of dollars and she was advocating for a rent strike so that seems like the thing to do in that situation well so like here's an example of something here's an example of something you could do right if you're a top 1 earner in the uk like abigail is maybe you could cover your person's your uh uh flatmates rent that's something you could do instead of going on striking or not that's that i don't even does she even have a well i'm gonna go ahead and guess the fact that she said my flatmates and i mean she probably has flatmates and the fact that she's saying that they're not going to pay their rent due to the pandemic makes it like she's not covering the rent but that's one thing she could do theoretically yeah okay what what is this so we're falling back on the original argument here where you can't so you can't make calls to action for a rent strike unless you're also spending money on the proletariat no you can do whatever you want i just think it's strange to be making all these calls to improve conditions all these calls to do things but you don't do anything with i don't think it's i don't think it's strange to say we should do a rent strike but then not again i don't even know what this means like donate to a chair i understand you don't mean you know what i mean like i'm being very very very gentle with you but like it's pretty disgusting like your whole point is that like i don't think you should have to do anything ethical or in harmony with your principles at all like i think you should just hoard infinite amounts of money be a [ __ ] wealth dragon if you want i don't think anything because you're making you're making it sound so angry i have not you know because i haven't no no i haven't even gotten angry at you i'm just saying that like it is unreal to me how much you are bending over backwards when my whole argument i am making a decision human you're making anything yes to try to justify why these people shouldn't have to lift a [ __ ] finger to do anything outside of what would be expected about normal capitalism it's good if they do it no yeah you weasel you weasel weasel you're weaselling you're weaselling how is it weasel it is a weasel what if they do something because you're wait because you're trying to make it sound like you think that people ought to when in reality you think it's just perfectly fine if people do nothing do you think it's fine do you think it's fine if people do nothing though and they just live normally you do because you said it was morally neutral yes yes so so stop saying you think it's good if they go above and beyond that's not what i'm talking about that is good but i'm not saying that wait do you ironically do you recognize the difference between an obligatory and a super arguatory action i can't believe i feel like i have to explain ethics to you if you wait wait hold on why are you trying to just why do you keep trying to make this an ethics argument please please please does utilitarianism as a system designate which actions a person must do no it designates which actions are good what a person must do is an entirely subjective process that we have to arrive at through a lot of really complicated thinking oh wait none of this tells us none of this makes any sense we don't whatever this ethics argument is we don't even need to talk about this whatever you just said that's essential you keep using language like they must or they ought but these aren't the i don't use language like this sure but i am that's what that's what i'm saying the difference is i think that you haven't there is an imperative that you think if you're a leftist you must adhere to a set of principles that leftists conveniently don't engage in which gives you an excuse to be mad at them we know it's been the subject of two hours of discussion nobody has learned anything and nobody has arrived at a fur sure and then you're weaseling around of this is like well i think it would be good if they did it but but i think that's okay then what do we disagree on i keep telling you we don't you're the one obsessed with this i thought we were going to have a chill conversation i'm just going to do my twitch band the only reason you're saying that we don't disagree on it but when i opened your video i think i only got like 30 seconds through it it's you saying this is the stupidest [ __ ] tweet i've ever had these are the dumbest [ __ ] tweets yeah you are incredibly blinded by spite when it comes to your i don't think i've said anything spiteful if i'm spiteful i'm spiteful because of the number of people that exist on this earth that don't live their principles but instead just talk the talk that's what that's what makes me spiteful whether people live their principles i do people's net actions contribute to positivity well i think that people living their principles i think will probably contribute to better net actions spectacular okay destiny awesome so anyway that's why people like philosophytube will brag about not paying rent she never bragged she said that she wouldn't in solidarity with a rent strike you have to express solidarity you can't do a rent strike saying i'll pay rent because i'm rich but you all don't ignoring that they're the type of wait hold on you absolutely could give a template for doing a rent strike without saying that you yourself are doing a rental it is undeniably more rhetorically effective to say that you are doing it in solidarity with others oh cool well they can do that but then i'm going to call them out for being a piece of [ __ ] yeah they're trying to get a bunch of people into it okay i'll call them up for making a piece of [ __ ] then if they want to sometimes i give advice for people on chat for like hey like these are ways that you could like you know negotiate down uh debt and stuff like that but i'm not gonna say i'm gonna sit there and do it or whatever like that's what i'm saying that i can give advice for how people can improve their conditions without pretending that i need to do the same thing even if it's yeah well we already acknowledge i already acknowledge that i think that the language of the tweet that you linked to me could have been more responsible and that she should show her income however i don't think she bragged about not paying rent and then we go on ignoring that they're part of the top one percent of uk earners and likely out earning the person they're paying rent to they probably are likely out earning the person they're paying rent to i don't know why you're saying she's ignoring that again this is ignoring that because she makes an attempt to obfuscate how much money she makes i don't think that i think the language of your tweet is exceptionally uncharitable and considering how specific you've been with your language with me i think that you know that you i'm sorry uh you are being charitable to an unbelievable amount when somebody does a an expo or when somebody does like a transparency report on how much money they make and they don't use a single [ __ ] number i'm sorry dog i'm coming down real harsh on that one that's great if you want to put on the if you want to put on the kid gloves for that that's fine but i'm seeing a lot of bad faith there if somebody who does a transparency report and doesn't list a single [ __ ] fact or figure while constantly complaining that like oh cat subcaptions are making my business unprofitable or oh i'm going on rent strike with my [ __ ] flatmates or whatever i'm not what yes top one percent in london is 300 000 pounds a year i guess it's possible oh i i didn't put london earners i put uk earners i don't know what the top one percent in london is probably a pretty big difference but the good thing i put uk earners instead of london earners then she might be in the top one percent of london earners though it's possible she lives in i think the city kind of matters but oh so if somebody was like are you the top one percent in america like hold on i might be the top one in america but i'm not the top one percent in la okay what are you doing right now are you serious not necessarily cutting lines with the top one percent but the difference in america between making 100k a year in like wisconsin versus making it in like new york i think that's a pretty significant difference yeah like if somebody was like you make six figures and somebody was like yeah it's 100k and i live in [ __ ] long island okay i'm i'm just trying to lift i think that's a pretty significant difference if if you're a top one percent earner in the united states you're doing really well literally no matter where you live yeah i just i'm clarifying that there is a three times difference between top one percent of uk earners and london earners i think that's worth like pointing out in the way of your hate train i know that's no that's fine it's okay if you want to be non-specific to allow your audience to assume the worst possible thing that's totally okay london would i need to find out what [ __ ] neighborhood she lives in next like what the [ __ ] i think you could average out to a city and that would probably be okay but i think that's pretty different i don't even know if she lives in london i don't even know if that's true all right and it's why online creators will hide their revenue from you while pretending they can't afford rent or why lefties who graduated from harvard will pretend they're like you because they're unemployed and then you link brianna joy gray who i think is a piece of [ __ ] so i'm not going to defend anything that she's done or said um it's not altogether much different from conservative billionaires who pretend they're quote-unquote just like you claiming they're fighting on your behalf they laugh it up all the way to the bank i think this is pretty insane to say that a bread tuber who doesn't display income on patreon is like a conservative billionaire who lies to the people while laughing it up to the bank i i understand the underlying logic but this is a this is a ridiculous it is absolutely apt when you are selling lies to your people and you're pretending that you're some poor person and basically any [ __ ] thing having to do economics or finance at any lefty post ever if you're hold on wait hold on what is what is the content of the videos that are being made have to do with this argument because conservatives tell lies to get people to believe some ideological basis and they make a [ __ ] their money lying when people like philosophy two make inaccurate trust me as a person who's recently made inaccurate takes they're not done because at least not with these people they're not done because they're deliberately trying to make a cheap buck off of misinformation they're usually doing it because they're just wrong oh okay well then i'm sure there's a ton of conservatives that feel the same way they're not really intentionally lying they're just like doing it because there's wrong yeah there are conservatives like that and you know that i've listened to i'm sorry i i feel like every time i no i think that there are a lot of people that go out of their way to like blatantly misrepresent something because it's ideologically convenient for them there absolutely are but do you really wait do you think that um brianna joy gray and abigail um thorne are in the same basic ballpark when it comes to misinformation um yeah probably okay i that's unbelievable to me i think that if unbelievable it would be the adjective i would use to describe both of them i wouldn't believe a single thing either themselves i think their both of their content is wholly worthless yes i think i honestly think that if you can't tell the difference between those two people then you've lost the plot and you can't meaningfully okay well you know what i don't have a [ __ ] girlfriend living here i can do whatever the [ __ ] i want i could stay with you link me one good philosophy youtube video right now and i'll watch it on [ __ ] stream when we're done talking find me one decent thing i have to like sit here while you watch it no no i'll do it afterward i'm talking i'm super curious find me one video because i have suffered through the garbage tier content that is philosophy tube and i've suffered permanent permanent brain damage as a result of it but i'll do it one more time i'll jump back into the abyss okay so while i there are videos from philosophy tube that i really really like and i'm happy to recommend them to you i have a feeling that your audience probably isn't going to like them very much either i just want to say that doesn't really have anything to do with what i was just saying so i'll recommend some to you if you want but first of all the reason why i think that brianna joy gray is a grifter and a general piece of [ __ ] is because if you look through her content if you look through the [ __ ] she says tweets videos panels whatever we reveal not only being wrong but a persistent and motive driven dishonesty a hypocrisy which underlies almost everything they do and say a categorical indifference to criticism or to growing as an individual whereas with philosophy hold on wait are you describing oh you were going to be honest because that sounded like abigail to me sorry i know because abigail literally said i don't even like gentle criticisms of my content i'm so irritated by the other lefty guy that was making like the unlearning economics guy she was upset about his video okay i'm not wait i genuinely don't trust your interpretation of this event do you have a link to a tweet or a video sure can somebody give me you guys only get earlier can you guys give me the link to her video where she um is i'm saying upset but where she's like irritated that somebody um that the unlearning economics oh this would be we'll start it at the same time okay okay all right ready okay oh this was posted from unlearning epinomics well i trust them hold on it's 22 seconds okay one two three let's go i won't get into the details of how ubi might work today because i've found that when i discuss an actual policy idea in a video people tend to think the video is essentially about arguing for that policy and then a bunch of earnest well-meaning people make reply videos to me that i i'm afraid i don't watch in which they presumably own me with facts and logic but i'm not trying to write policy i won't get into the tell me this doesn't sound salty as [ __ ] about incredibly gentle videos that unlearning economics has made i don't think it sounds salty as [ __ ] i think it sounds salty um i don't think i think this is bad um but i don't think this comes anywhere near like brianna joy gray there are people in your audience omega lulling but like i've said the same thing i get a lot of response videos too and i don't have time to watch them all well most of them are made by nazis so they're probably not worth watching why are you doing this comparison do you think that response video is made to you by nazis are the same as i'm learning no no hold on you just did the rhetorical thing again i don't you don't notice you're doing this maybe you've just like assumed this as part of your character it's just how i talk okay yeah that's fine i'm saying it's just subconscious but you literally just like oh yeah i mean i don't watch reply videos to me anyway you know a lot of them are nazis unlearning economics is a fellow lefty a fellow breakthrough okay that's fully transparent i just want you to understand what you're doing and i need to point it out for my own responsibility it was an attempt at lightening the mood slightly i'll say this i don't like it i don't think you're charitable enough to tell the difference between this and the type of stuff that brianna joy grey does okay i mean do you wait i need to be real man i watched you watch this i didn't watch it on my own you watch the bad faith podcast where brianna joy gray and virgil texas talk to chomsky have you there's a right answer to this have you ever watched anything from abigail that even came close that was even in the same universe as the degeneracy on display with those two dumb [ __ ] besmirching the name of noam chomsky probably not no okay okay okay i was kind of expecting you to say they were the same but they're abigail's content is generally non-confrontational she's not going to bring on somebody to like because in order to get to that level of degeneracy you need to like demean somebody like elsa and i don't think abigail journalism that's beyond i don't think she could do that i don't think she's probably not but all i'm saying is i i don't know if i'm saying like one is necessarily worse than the other part what i'm saying is that abigail contributes nothing meaningful whatsoever to public discourse and if she deleted all of her videos the world would be better for it now maybe briana's takes are like more infuriating whatever but abigail offers nothing of value to the world of online content or political discourse based on everything i've ever seen and how horrendously incorrect her takes are almost everything she talks about okay so i've seen the um i've seen the unlearning economics video on the video that she did on the housing market and i agree that video never seemed that good to me there are some other videos that she's seen um you said you didn't like the one about consciousness i remember there was a video of hers that i saw where i felt um there were some issues i just don't remember the specifics um but to this this to you those instances this is this is contributing nothing of value or anti-value like they mislead people or hey you know what and you know what i will fully admit maybe there is something of value that i've just missed and maybe only every video i've seen has been [ __ ] horrible atrocious trash and that's why i'm excited for you to link me a video after this and we'll watch it on twitter and you know what i might what the work video i saw your stream watch it i thought it was a pretty fine video that's the video from which we just saw that clip i saw chat being absurdly oh my god i remember jumping around near my tinker's furniture uh was this the one where she was complaining about like doing data entry and [ __ ] she was dressed like um like um scrooge right i think or it was like a christmas i i i i've black parts of this video from my mind i don't know if this video you gave like yeah i don't think it gave like bad information it was just like a [ __ ] just a horrible worthless [ __ ] video why the emotional investment no i don't have that much of an emotional investment it was just like you didn't care enough to call it horrible oh god where was the one um [ __ ] what was it i'm trying to think she made like an analogy to like a bar owner like not doing any work or not having any just everything anytime any lefty on breadcrumbs by definition an owner doesn't do work they can manage and that's work but the act of owning in and of itself is at work okay i mean you bought like you leveraged the capital there's like some back end stuff but the actual act of ownership is not labor a lot of the time that's not question marking but this is an incredibly straightforward wait okay okay just as a this is a class thing from my background maybe in beverly hills they're all franchise but in the place where i came from a lot of owners that own small businesses are full-time workers they have to and they yeah then they're workers i said the act of owning gotcha i understand yourself but i would be really careful to like cleveland but also the act of owning i guess it depends on if you're literally just like a capital owner versus like an owner slash like ceo personally because that's that's what i mean yeah just an owner the act of owning is not labor but most owners should see a small business i just i remember her saying a bunch of incredibly stupid things like somebody's bringing this up like the fact that she thought that she like poured like a ten dollar like beer means that she should have gotten paid ten dollars like every year okay i recognize i know even a lot of marxists misunderstand that's even even in in marx's calculations of surplus labor he took into account the factors that upkeep on the industry would have that that the surplus value is not literally exclusively just what you're paid and then okay so we agree then this is a dog [ __ ] video okay so it's a video which misrepresents some issues but i think ultimately has a compelling story to tell on alienation from labor but you can't see that okay i how i haven't yet to find a single content creator who has never produced something i found objectionable i'm not saying that the problem is i find something i'm saying that most of what they post is just ideological drivel that is just not rooted in reality that any time it has to do with econ or finance is cringe and horrible and bad and that even some of their philosophy takes are mind-numbingly [ __ ] stupid so like their video encounters with the specific videos i can't say just charitability dictates everything here because something that i would say is like oh that was a mistake but overall the video is good it's something that you might lead you to say this video is indefensible it's bad when you know somebody that i disagree that i just got a lot with their last few but you know what i like to some of their presentation cuck philosophy that guy is based or their philosophy yeah his stuff and i totally disagree with this livestream and you know what i actually think some of the stuff is lesbian was wrong and bad i think so but for the most part i would watch his videos and i would enjoy them i like his content i think he does a really good job and i've picked up some really [ __ ] interesting concepts and i've learned stuff and i think that's like a valuable channel i recommend you like unlearning economics so i i think unlearning economics is a socialist i forget but i'm pretty yeah he is but he seems like he understands at least like basically i don't like hate socialism socialists were the original people to understand kidding um yeah i don't i don't have a problem with socialists that like understand ego we might disagree sometimes a lot of socialists don't understand econ i'm aware of that but then they try to explain it well yes of course but the internet is full of people who explain things poorly but sometimes i feel like i see a different degree of charitability from you with regards to the types of information that people present is that am i charitable nazis am i charitable to trump am i who please tell me which people i'm charitable with i generally think yeah actually i think that's what made you different you were charitable to the nazis you didn't just like name call or anything you actually listened to their arguments long enough to realize how dumb they were and then you took apart their arguments yeah charitability doesn't mean you have to like them charitability in the sense that you assess their why is your chat question marking me because i be because the frustrating thing vosh is just how wrong you are when i set out on the lefty arc i have never been more gentle with people in my entire [ __ ] life and people lost their [ __ ] minds despite how gentle i was and you're saying that i felt about the let the ark to begin with sure but i'm just saying that like i was so gentle and now you know what and towards the end if anybody would watch our last debate with uh with all sup and striker whatever i don't think anybody would say that like we were making a big effort to understand we just destroyed them it was just a demolishment well at that well at that point i feel like i feel like the structure of that debate necessitated sure and most of my debates with levies have basically devolved to that point there's not there's not anything there's not anything sure but there's not anything left for me to discuss like in a gentleman with a level mostly i understand okay i understand that so i feel like you moved off my point a little bit first of all i'm still genuinely curious why question marked me when i said that you opened by being charitable to the far right because that's literally how you understand the arguments well enough to be able to confront them if you're uncharitable then you don't know if what you're criticizing is legitimate that's the problem that i have and i'm not charitable to everyone i argue with and you've long stopped being charitable to lefties and sometimes i'm charitable to every person that comes on and wants to have a reasonable discussion every time well look at my two conversations with the look at my two comments about everyone you talk to except me look at the conversations that i had with the two big joel [ __ ] both of both of those were i was incredibly gentle even though he's a [ __ ] piece of [ __ ] both times he's not a piece of [ __ ] he is a worthless [ __ ] piece of [ __ ] that doesn't make a person this is what i mean it doesn't make a person a piece of [ __ ] to ramble post on twitter afterwards when you walk away on twitter and you act like some [ __ ] inbred degenerate [ __ ] who couldn't understand a single thing i said but you didn't have the [ __ ] gall to say anything when you were talking to me that makes you a subhuman piece of [ __ ] to me [ __ ] you okay so let's let's pull back in a couple of the adjectives there okay so what he actually did is he rambled he ramble posts he he he he posts like a drunken person talking no he made he trivialized the [ __ ] out of all of my positions initiated that and then he came on to you and he talked with you and you debated better than him of course because you're good at that and he doesn't do that and then he went off and uh clearly he wasn't happy with how it went or he just pontificated afterwards what he did was essentially the twitter equivalent of ending a call and then like like [ __ ] talking the person that you just talked to i don't think that publicly scum [ __ ] subhuman degenerate like i understand not for you i because i have a higher this is why i don't have any friends i guess i have a really high standard for what i consider to be a good person if you listen you know what i would never call you uh scum [ __ ] degeneres because at least when you disagree with me you say it right now and you i am okay with it i respect that if you say right now but if you would have pretended to agree with everything i said and then immediately ran to twitter and talk [ __ ] afterwards nah [ __ ] that [ __ ] that's that's like that's like do you think there might be reasons why people do that yeah because they're subhuman inbred [ __ ] [ __ ] degenerate people they're a little bit intimidated by you well then don't talk to me at all [ __ ] off well if you don't want people who are intimidated by you to talk to you then you lose out on a lot of content don't you think it would be better that the issue that i have is that okay i'm sorry the issue i have is it feels like you and i have two different standards by which we measure the worth of a person for me i measure the worth of a person generally speaking if they're sufficiently progressive could you know they bring about good politics and you measure the worth of a person by a set of principles and consistencies and i think that's fine but what bothers me is when it seems like you lump together fairly good people with bad elements to their behavior with genuinely [ __ ] bad people and it feels like when you're unwilling to distinguish between them like i think brianna joy and philosophy to be an excellent example of this that you just you distort the perception of these people in the minds of your audience i'm glad i want that to happen i think that a lot of the absorption i thought you know not distortion reality i think that people get away with way too much irresponsible [ __ ] online and i think way more people need to be called the [ __ ] out for it and i think it's disgusting the level of misinformation people can post videos to millions of subscribers and and it's just blatantly incorrect and everybody's okay with it that blows my [ __ ] mind into smithereens and i don't think that it should be some kind like we need to be nicer i i honest to god i think half the youtube channels that exist right now should be forcibly [ __ ] deleted and they should have to start over and if they keep posting this information they're just banned from the whole internet forever and they have to go [ __ ] work in the gulags that decision if i looked over your content for long enough i'm sure i'll find enough things that would trip my moral flags to be willing to assign i'm not talking about moral flags right now i'm talking about people that are just posting blatantly grossly misrepresented horrible misinformation moral judgment how harmful misinformation is i'm not even talking about the term i'm just saying somebody gets some [ __ ] wrong over and over and over and over again that's my big issue it's not even necessarily something do you think there's any difference then between people who post misinformation about kova 19 and people who post misinformation about super smash bros cheat codes that would allow you to play sonic and melee obviously we have to make moral judgments about what types of misinformation are worthy of condemnation sure but the moral the types misinformation that i would want to be deleted wouldn't depend on just oh only the misinformation that's bad but the other misinformation can stay because the misinformation that stays rots us to the [ __ ] core and that's what makes the misinformation that's bad later on permissible do you think that the far right online and the online left engage incomparable degrees of misinformation absolutely at this point and i [ __ ] am embarrassed to say it yeah 100 i believe so at this point yes what could move you off of that position um if i could talk to any bread tuber and i could just have a two-minute conversation with them and feel like they understand like basic things like if so here's something that would blow my [ __ ] mind it would blow my [ __ ] mind if i could ask a bread tuber hey what do you think might be an advantage to renting property from a landlord versus buying it and i can have like a five-minute conversation and they actually understood the pros and cons of the buying side and the pros and cons of the renting side it would blow my [ __ ] mind i would legitimately be impressed i think that they wouldn't i feel like joel if no i don't think he would i think he would flumble and i think he'd be like and i don't think you would understand at all okay do you think if i talk to some people in bread tube that i could procure that type of answer out of them i think that you could massage their answers so that it's barely passable because you're being so charitable to them yes why do you think they might respond differently to you and me no they would respond similarly but you would baby them into their crib and you would help put together yeah you would you would slowly kind of oh well you mean you know something pretty hard on the left myself i get in a lot of trouble i i'm not exactly friends with the online left all i care about at the end of the day is trying to make sure i don't know why your chat's libra i should stop responding to your chat they're only going to do it more if i say that i don't know how if they'd know how much [ __ ] that i get in with the online left if they have any idea but long since they're past you in that regard cause you don't debate lefties anymore because you're too busy angering them um but uh with regards to um charitability i don't baby these people i think i'm not saying i'm saying that would be the reason why you could get another answer out of them i think they're smarter than you give them credit for absolutely not that and you know what i'm working on it now and hopefully i'm done by wednesday that's why i'm putting it together this whole gme thing because i think this is i have never been so [ __ ] black-hole-pilled on all alternative media you're not even one of the worst offenders but i i think that after the gme thing there are so many people that i just i can't listen to anybody ever online anymore like say anything even people like david pakman and sam cedar con contributed to information horrible misinformation yeah so wait hold on hold on we had a lot of that back during the iraq war as well i remember that or at least i remember my parents talking about that and i know that sometimes these things have devastating social consequences but do you think there might be a problem with your system if it's leading you to be black-pilled when essentially a bipartisan misinformation takes place people on the right everyone was wrong about this except for a couple of select actors credit to them yeah but the question is why are people wrong about it that's an interesting question and it's a super easy answer no it's no no no it's not it's so spread of misinformation and the the separation of information is the most interesting question is so boring the answer is that we have our ideological drives we look for the information that supports that and then that's the information we pass on it's just simple david pac-man isn't even a populist but it doesn't matter he probably has a certain ideology that corporations and stock markets and exchanges and brokerages are all bad and because they're evil corporations he probably passes it on without being too critical of it 100 really yeah who wouldn't you be willing to sell out in this conversation i think deepak is a pretty smart guy i've talked with him of the liberals that i have spoken to i hold him in high regard sure i think because i think that generally i think he gets things right but i think that he also has like his ideological biases that he falls into that he'll report over fact of it we all do you do as well i try to be aware of it stop hold on wait wait wait wait that is a false equivocation okay to say we all have this problem of course we do but obviously there are people that have it in varying degrees of course i think i so i'm never going to be able to move you on this i think that your lefty black-pilled spite pit is worse uh misinformation wise or it betrays more of a character flaw on your part than anything that you're going to find from deepak or sam cedar but probably not as bad as what you're going to see from like the stock deepak is literally made like he's like [ __ ] pro circumcision okay like jesus christ like i think that there are some ideological pitfalls that are worth like being critical of okay is any jewish i mean that's kind of part of the if you were a muslim from africa is it okay to be pro-female genital mutilation i'm not saying it's okay oh my god the [ __ ] weasel you're doing so much i'm not going it's okay i was just providing a justification for it okay what's the next part you wanna talk about how is that a weird okay the way that i can explain it to you how it's a weasel okay you've done this sure this is a rhetorical trick you do over and over and over again so what you do is uh i bring up a thing and you're like oh well can't that justification for that be this and this and i go like okay when you justify something like that the impression that you leave in a listener's mind is that you're saying that it's an okay thing this is what i mean by the uncharted abilities i'm just telling you how you sell an argument understand where you're coming from with this because i recognize that that is the sort of thing that people could do intentionally to procure some kind of effect i just said it because i was asking if he was jewish but you were very defensive in your response which makes me feel like you're being uncharitable to me this is so okay this is going to sound patronizing i understand something that i realized in this conversation with you i thought that you would like put a lot of explicit work into like improving your rhetoric whatever but i think a lot of it is actually just like a byproduct of your conversation you don't actually explicitly think about your rhetoric at all you're just effective at it as like a byproduct of what you do but you don't realize a lot of the things that you do sometimes it's just you i don't know i'm gonna say you're lucky but like you you do things that are incredibly rhetorically effective you don't actually realize you're doing that which is surprising natural instinct yeah i thought it was a much more like conscious choice like more deliberate in terms of how you do there are things that i do consciously but i haven't been trying to sure but a lot of the things that i've been like quote unquote calling you out on you're like what i'm not trying to do this all so you're lying to me i don't think you i think you legitimately don't realize what you're doing legitimate i think you're seeing ghosts where none exists sometimes no no no no no no no no no no no some of these it's not i'm not no no you think i'm saying ghost because you think i'm describing like intention to you i kind of am but not really i'm more i'm only focused on like the effect in the chat so when you say something hold on so with the with the deepak thing with me asking if he is jewish in what world is me asking if he is jewish a retort to the idea that you put forward that david pakman occasionally has bad takes i feel like this can't even be interpreted as like an attempt sure i can break it down in an english way i give you a rhetorical way so i said he has a particular belief and then you responded with a challenge to that well is he not x when you say it that way the impression he was like oh [ __ ] yeah he is like yeah he is you're you're like almost disagreeing with the statement i've given her you've provided a justification you get upset so for instance earlier in a way no it wasn't that you did it that upset me the way you did it was well this time it was but so like an example an earlier way that i did this where i clarified it was um uh earlier i criticized abigail for being upset when people made response videos to her and then you said oh yeah well i don't even watch response videos to me you know a lot of them are from nazis and i and i called you out there are plenty of things like you doing the rape cage [ __ ] but i just let that go because i'm not constantly attempting to [ __ ] scan every line of your argument for some sort of rhetorical trick you're unironically treating me the way all the [ __ ] who used to accuse you of debate tactics treated you no not at all the rape cage thing was because you're people you know the rape cage thing that i'm giving you is because after talking to you for so long you're giving me this moral position that i i still don't believe you really think this way i can't believe you don't even though you asked for two hours and i was consistent on every single point you still don't believe me because you never wanted because no no what's happening is that you've given a position that you want to defend and now you're trying to post hoc give these it's kind of like when you said that like a black guy should submit himself to a mob of white racist to defend the written house [ __ ] right it's the same thing you're trying you're trying when you try to say when you try to say that like any action is morally permissible so long as someone else in a system could theoretically replace you in that system like that no [ __ ] way do you believe i don't believe you actually believe no no no way clear and consistent with all the criteria that i set there what's the point i have to ask you what's the point in talking to you about any of the [ __ ] that i believe in if you divert these conversations down an attempt to gotcha me and then after two hours of explaining you don't believe me at the end do you not think that you might be approaching this conversation in a strange or perhaps spiteful way yeah no no no a little bit of your engagement where you say [ __ ] like after seeing people talk about the brianna taylor thing saying that she was shot in her sleep that the left engages in the same level of misinformation as the online right the right by the way marjorie taylor green in office jewish space lasers etc etc and what do we have in the left aoc didn't understand stock buybacks but these are comparable uh excuse me what do we have on the left obama was making secret phone calls behind the scenes to [ __ ] get everybody together and get bernie thrown out um that the that the [ __ ] shadow app paid for by pete campaign was being what wait first of all i just compared elected representatives second of all didn't obama have a call at some point or am i misremembering do you think that the call that he had was the the a secret call to rally everybody together to [ __ ] over wait so how what straw man are we constructing today um i'm not constructing a straw man i'm saying implying the democratic party it's not surprising to me that people [ __ ] i forgot i picked the conspiracy that you believe and i [ __ ] up i'm sorry wait what conspiracy i'm sorry did i say something what about the shadow app thing do you believe that the shadow app was funded by because pete's [ __ ] wife is like friends with the chair or whatever of that company i'm gonna be honest with you it's been long enough that i don't remember [ __ ] i remember the shadow app being like a massive [ __ ] up i don't think any evidence was found of it being um a deliberate i don't think any evidence was found of it being like a deliberate uh sabotage but i could misremember that i think i mean i think it was all pretty convenient and in instances like that and this is generally the position that i tend to take on conspiracy i think that people should be skeptical if it feels like institutions have the ability to do bad [ __ ] and get away with it because like i mean lefties have to believe that i think that we're literally killing our people i think that in the real world generally i would say that i think that people on the left have a better view of reality people on the right online the dog [ __ ] takes that spread misinformation are totally equal and left and right they're just as insane on both sides both sides of the conversation are at this point completely removed from the reality of any conversation topic about literally [ __ ] anything it's unbelievable how if you go on all the bread tubers right now they're usually talking about their videos they talk about social issues and economic inequality if you go to the big right-leaning youtubers they're talking about eating jews eating baby blood uh trump secretly winning the election and the coven 19 wukong protocols to hide the true numbers i i don't think that i don't think that every single conservative in media right now is talking about that maybe some of the crazy channels were but i'm pretty sure if we go visit like ben shapiro's channel or stephen crowder's channel that they're talking about more than just that no that was no stephen crowder's channel is 100 behind the trump uh actually secretly one conspiracy in fact he's doing a massive bus tour across america to interview trump supporters to reinforce the belief that actually is that is every single video he does now just that there's no way i haven't watched them all but i know that you're wrong there's no way that every single video he's doing right now every video i'm just saying whatever i'm saying he's going to do sure he might believe that particular thing but i'm saying the lying chair say every video why because why because you're countering saying that i'm not moving the goalposts i'm saying that the music is dead your [ __ ] legs are i'm saying that most of the content okay then i misspoke i'm sorry most of the content that people like ben shapiro and steven crowder are doing are not constant like coronavirus conspiracy theory videos or [ __ ] election stealing conspiracy those are the two most legitimate and party-backed ones but if you go to other channels like tim poole or the salty cracker or any of the other massive [ __ ] half a million plus sub channels that aren't like kinda sorta backed by the republican party then yeah you'll find pretty yeah about that level the big left channels their misinformation is getting economic issues wrong and occasionally misrepresenting like big historical events the right-leaning channels are 24 7. every video they produce is dishonest you okay i'll start keeping track of it more but i've become incredibly you actually did believe me do you think that's wrong what uh yeah no every almost everything that i read from lefty twitter or or lefty youtube videos or whatever twitter i'll go videos what are we yeah yeah like twitter and youtube videos yes the two things that you were talking about on the right yes these can't even be equivocated this is what i mean wait what were you just talking about on the right what are stephen crowder and [ __ ] ben shapiro youtubers you mentioned twitter i just said twitter and videos twitter and videos yes people tweet and then they write videos because everyone's stupid on twitter and sharing okay we can write videos sure all right and if i've said any twitter takes you disagree with oh and you did give a take on the shadow app thing you did think it was a [ __ ] conspiracy people are [ __ ] linking the tweets on that as well link it i'll own it or disown it link it there you go i don't know because you're going to say like oh well actually i was just trying to say that it was a um that it was just an unfortunate coincidence of these two things okay just so we're clear even if the fight this from february 3rd just so we're clear even if the final io results favor bernie this unbelievable incompetence from the dnc hurts his campaign i agree with that the confusion and indecisive narratives halt campaign momentum and let worms like pete budujad steal attention to chaos i do agree with that and no there is nothing conspiratorial about pointing out the fact that the shadow app the failure of which gave people to judge time in the limelight was paid for in part by buddha judge's campaign and made by a company whose ceo is a buddha judge fan so before we get into the implications there was anything there technically incorrect yes what was it i don't think that pete budajic paid for the shadow app i just think they've made contributions to the company because they've done work for them in the past okay okay yeah that is a meaningful difference yeah okay that's a pretty dumb tweet though okay it's all right um i almost any lefty video that i see related to almost anything having to do with econ or finance is absolute [ __ ] dog [ __ ] it's like should never be published on the internet as opposed to the conservative videos about finance that are also absolute dog [ __ ] that should never be published on the internet okay but like if i look at philosophy tube like right like i'm sorry this is like weird i'm not even that big of a floss youtube phantom obviously i'm gonna find another channel defend them maybe there's some good lefty channels out there i'm missing well you wouldn't attack i assume you're mostly fine with contro's content right yeah contra is a queen but she doesn't count as lefty you don't get to own her she's our own beautiful butterfly okay all right that's some no true scotsman [ __ ] but okay fine so if we take a look at the past 10 videos from philosophy too i'm sorry like i need to do this sure we have a video about her coming out that's obviously fine we have the work video which i'm so i think was fine with maybe some simplistic representation work video is cringe as [ __ ] the shitty takes about the owner not being the worker even though that bar owner literally was a worker cringe takes about how they should be getting paid oh the owner was a worker yeah she literally describes in the [ __ ] video if she wait so she said the bar owner wasn't a worker but also they worked at the bar she i don't believe you she mentioned him being on site and doing stuff like literally otherwise how the [ __ ] would the owner be there but go ahead what's the next video i don't know where to crack the whip i don't know i don't know i'd have to rewatch it i don't trust you then we have the amy coney barrett video which was a video on constitutional originalism i watched that i'm not a lawyer it seemed pretty good to me we have a video on confucius what to do when elites break the rules i thought that video was fine who's afraid of the experts which was a interview with um adam conover oh the guy from the show the yeah everyone hates adam or everything so yeah yeah yeah that guy um and and it's a video about tech technocracy you have logic by philosophy tube which is a big rhetorical breakdown of a speech given by julius caesar uh you have charles darwin versus karl marx which i haven't watched uh because it's an hour long a minute long um you have anti-semitism which i thought was foreign are you just reading can i do this too can i read the next one you have beauty and ugly times by philosophy too i haven't watched that one okay and then there was the next one artists and fandoms which was an anti-parasocial relationship i thought and then you got one called data by philosophy two and then what's next i was just doing ten but yes we have the data one okay i don't remember being a big fan of that one the trouble with the video game industry that's an econ one so that's probably one you wouldn't like and i don't remember being very fond of it myself is queer i think that video is fine hbo's chernobyl and personal responsibility i think that one was really great actually that's a really great one can i watch that i don't have to do it now but i'll do that later because i watched chernobyl and then oh man this could be a good maybe and you know what hey maybe this will be a good video be like okay i'll take it back abigail has at least one good video on her channel yeah i really liked this one queer and i really like the steven bannon one the men abuse trauma one was really good which honestly was good enough that i don't even want to spoil it i know your feelings about spoilers um anyway i'm sorry the reason i'm going through all of this is because there are some misses here i think for the most part these are informative and instructive videos that have a few problems but if we go to like um what's his name crowder if we go to like crowder's channel i don't i just don't think the level of misinformation here is comparable ignoring the fact that crowder has 5.2 million subs i mean he's in another ballpark of relevance but um well that's true i don't know if i would say it's fair to do a one-to-one comparison with crowder and philosophy tube because abigail obviously engages in a lot more social slash art commentary whereas crowder is like covering the news constantly if i got if i had a youtube channel from this info sure if i had a youtube channel of abigail covering the news constantly it would probably be as bad as crowders but if she's doing like random stuff with somebody youtube is video essays right um a lot of them are but i also haven't seen a lot of these unfortunately so i can't tell you if they're dog [ __ ] or not uh yeah that's fine like the work video is dog [ __ ] i just date a video is uh i just i can't believe your take that the online right and the online left are in the same level of disinformation i feel like cue apologia or q signaling is basically like a mainstream conservative position now certainly amongst their commentators if if not necessarily amongst the people who watch them but on the online left it's like you're bad at econ and every once in a while you've shitty in poll takes and you won't infight constantly and well you know what i will watch i will watch the chernobyl video and maybe i'll be made up abigail fan okay okay you know i this was a massive waste of time all right well um how is um how do you feel are you duo streaming yet i think that i have to drop my affiliate contract before i can do a stream where i'm going to get banned again which i would really rather not i miss well you got an affiliate contract with twitch i that's it's from two years ago it's the same one which they didn't get rid of for some reason wait oh [ __ ] i'm sorry that's [ __ ] you um the affiliate contracts the last i check i would have to check but i think those set to auto renew every two years or it might be every one year if the newer ones are different you should check for the auto renewal period because if you give a it's either 30 or 60 day written notice they'll they'll like leave the you can exit the contract or whatever you should look at the date for that and you should do a stream it's better than single streaming all right well gotta get those prime subs um all right well thanks for the conversation um godspeed with the online left or whatever and in all seriousness if the if there's any positive note that this has to end on um wait i'm sorry this feels like it's out of nowhere but you've you've been a victim of domestic abuse in the past right is that a weird thing to just ask sure why what about it the video on men abuse trauma philosophy tube star emoji i thought was really really good okay i'll uh maybe i'll throw this one up there and we'll see okay all right all right well godspeed roast them with your chat all right good luck get some sleep have fun peace out remember to 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Channel: Destiny

Views: 871,012

Keywords: steven bonnell, destiny, destiny streamer, destiny debates, destiny twitch, destiny vods, politics, news, livestreamfail, lsf, vaush, destiny vaush, destiny vs vaush, destiny debates vaush, destiny lefty, destiny debate, vaush debate, destiny philosophytube, destiny breadtube, Briahna Joy Gray, philosophytube, vaush defends

Id: gteClaD9GKc

Length: 225min 34sec (13534 seconds)

Published: Tue Feb 09 2021