TIM: WELCOME TO
RBC MINISTRIES WEBINARS.
I'M YOUR HOST, TIM JACKSON, AND TODAY'S WEBINAR
IS ON A VERY SERIOUS TOPIC
THAT IS IN OUR CHURCHES, IT'S IN OUR FAMILIES,
AND IT'S IN OUR COMMUNITY. IT'S THE ISSUE OF EMOTIONALLY
DESTRUCTIVE MARRIAGES, AND WE'RE SO HAPPY
THAT YOU'VE JOINED US
TODAY FOR THIS WEBINAR. JOINING ME HERE AT THE TABLE IS
LESLIE VERNICK AND CHRIS MOLES. LESLIE, YOU'RE A LICENSED
CLINICAL SOCIAL WORKER, RIGHT? LESLIE: THAT'S RIGHT. TIM: AND YOU'VE WRITTEN A BOOK,
WHICH IS ENTITLED,
OBVIOUSLY... LESLIE:<i> THE EMOTIONALLY
DESTRUCTIVE MARRIAGE.</i> TIM: AND THAT'S WHY
WE HAVE YOU HERE. YOU'VE BEEN
COUNSELING FOR HOW LONG, LESLIE? LESLIE: ABOUT THIRTY-PLUS YEARS. TIM: OKAY.
AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT... THAT YOU'VE
SEEN OVER THE YEARS THAT YOU'VE
BEEN WORKING WITH, CORRECT? LESLIE: YOU KNOW, YES.
WHEN I BEGAN, I STARTED
WORKING WITH COUPLES AND, YOU KNOW, I BEGAN SEEING
SOME REAL SERIOUS ISSUES... THAT WERE NOT REALLY
ADEQUATELY BEING ADDRESSED. AND SO I BEGAN REALLY
ASKING GOD, YOU KNOW, HOW DO WE REALLY SPEAK INTO
NOT JUST A DIFFICULT MARRIAGE
OR A DISAPPOINTING MARRIAGE, BUT THESE DESTRUCTIVE
MARRIAGES WHERE PEOPLE
ARE FEELING SQUASHED. THEY'RE FEELING BROKEN.
THEY'RE BEING ABUSED. AND WE REALLY WEREN'T TALKING
ABOUT THAT. IT WAS SORT OF LIKE,
"THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN HERE." AND SO I REALLY WANTED
TO OPEN OUR EYES AND
GIVE WOMEN AND MEN... REAL HOPE THAT THINGS
CAN BE DIFFERENT. TIM: WELL, WE'RE GLAD
YOU CAN JOIN US HERE TODAY. AND ALSO JOINING US
AT THE TABLE IS CHRIS MOLES. MANY OF YOU WHO'VE BEEN TO OUR
WEBINARS BEFORE KNOW DENNIS,
WHICH IS CHRIS' BROTHER. CHRIS: THAT'S RIGHT. TIM: AND CHRIS COMES FROM WEST
VIRGINIA. YOU'RE A SENIOR
PASTOR THERE, CORRECT? CHRIS: YES, YES. TIM: BUT YOU'RE ALSO...
YOU DESCRIBE YOURSELF AS
AN INTERVENTION SPECIALIST. TELL ME WHAT THAT IS, CHRIS. CHRIS: WELL, IT'S HARD TO
DESCRIBE WHAT IT IS I DO, BUT SEVERAL YEARS AGO
WE WANTED TO GET INVOLVED
IN OUR COMMUNITY, AND ONE OF THE WAYS
WE WERE ABLE TO DO THAT WAS
A GOOD FRIEND OF MINE, KIM, INVITED ME TO BE A PART
OF A BATTERER INTERVENTION
AND PREVENTION GROUP. AND SO THROUGHOUT THAT PROCESS,
I'VE WORKED WITH DOMESTIC
VIOLENCE OFFENDERS, AND MEN WHO USE
ABUSE IN THE HOME. AND LIKE LESLIE, I DEVELOPED
A BURDEN FOR THE CHURCH. I REMEMBER BEING
AT A TRAINING EVENT WHERE
I WAS THE ONLY PASTOR THERE, AND MY FRIEND CALLED ME
"THE UNICORN"... BECAUSE IT WAS RARE TO SEE
PASTORS AT THESE TYPE OF EVENTS. SO I'VE DEVELOPED
A REAL PASSION FOR THE CHURCH
TO SPEAK INTO THIS, AS WELL. TIM: AND SO...
I THINK THAT'S GREAT. WE HAVE BOTH A COUNSELOR AND
A PASTOR HERE TO TALK ABOUT... HOW DO WE COLLABORATE TOGETHER
ON DEALING WITH THESE KIND OF
ISSUES THAT COME UP? HEY, LET ME TELL YOU
HOW TO PARTICIPATE IN
OUR WEBINAR TODAY. THERE ARE SEVERAL WAYS. ONE:
WE'RE GONNA HAVE SOME POLLS. WE WANT YOU TO
ANSWER THE POLL QUESTIONS
AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE... BECAUSE THAT ALLOWS US
THEN TO TABULATE THOSE RESULTS
AND GET THEM BACK TO YOU, AND YOU HEAR A LITTLE
BIT MORE OF WHO YOU'RE
LISTENING IN WITH... AND UNDERSTAND BETTER
YOUR AUDIENCE. AS WELL AS, WE HAVE THAT
YOU CAN TWITTER. YOU CAN "TWEET"
THE HASHTAG: WHEN LOVE HURTS. HASTAG: WHEN LOVE HURTS. SO LET'S START OFF WITH
ONE OF THOSE POLL QUESTIONS. AND THE ONE I WANT
TO ASK YOU IS THIS: WHY ARE YOU INTERESTED IN
LEARNING MORE ABOUT EMOTIONALLY
DESTRUCTIVE MARRIAGES? THERE MAY BE SEVERAL
REASONS THAT YOU'RE...
THAT YOU'VE COME TODAY. ONE IS MAYBE YOU GREW UP IN
AN EMOTIONALLY DESTRUCTIVE HOME. MAYBE YOU THINK, "I MIGHT
BE LIVING IN AN EMOTIONALLY
DESTRUCTIVE RELATIONSHIP, "AND I'D LIKE TO KNOW MORE."
MAYBE YOU'VE LOST... YOU HAVE A LOVED ONE
WHO'S IN AN EMOTIONALLY
DESTRUCTIVE RELATIONSHIP, OR YOU WORK WITH PEOPLE
WHO ARE IN MARITAL CRISIS. YOU MAY BE A PASTOR
OR A COUNSELOR. FINALLY,
THE LAST OPTION THERE IS: "I WANT TO LEARN
HOW TO AVOID AN EMOTIONALLY
DESTRUCTIVE RELATIONSHIP." SO TAKE A LOOK AT THOSE
QUESTIONS, FILL THOSE OUT
AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE, AND WE'LL GET BACK TO YOU
ON THE RESULTS OF THOSE
HERE IN A MINUTE. BUT LET ME ASK YOU. WE'RE
TALKING ABOUT EMOTIONALLY
DESTRUCTIVE MARRIAGES. DEFINE FOR ME WHAT THAT IS,
BECAUSE THIS ISN'T JUST YOUR... YOUR NORMAL KIND
OF MARITAL CONFLICT,
'CAUSE ALL OF US STRUGGLE. WHAT ARE WE
TALKING ABOUT HERE? LESLIE: YEAH. JAMES 3:2
SAYS IT REALLY WELL. IT SAYS, "WE ALL STUMBLE
IN MANY WAYS." AND SO THERE
IS NO PERFECT MARRIAGE. THERE'S NO PERFECT SPOUSE.
THERE'S NO PERFECT
RELATIONSHIP. BUT WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT... EMOTIONALLY DESTRUCTIVE
MARRIAGES IS REALLY DISTINCT
FROM A DIFFICULT MARRIAGE... OR A DISAPPOINTING MARRIAGE,
WHICH I THINK WE OFTEN
GET CONFUSED BY. SO LET ME JUST QUICKLY SAY A
DISAPPOINTING MARRIAGE IS WHEN, YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T GET THE
PERSON THAT YOU THOUGHT YOU GOT. THERE'S NO FIFTY-TWO CARDS
IN THE DECK IN ANY MARRIAGE,
IN ANY SPOUSE, AND SO YOU FIND
SOME CARDS MISSING. AND HOPEFULLY YOU KNEW AHEAD
OF TIME WHICH ONES WERE MISSING, BUT OFTENTIMES IT'S A LITTLE
SURPRISE IN MARRIAGE. TIM: YOU FIND OUT
AFTER THE FACT. LESLIE: YEAH, THEY'RE NOT
AS AMBITIOUS AS YOU THOUGHT. THERE'S NO DIRECT SIN ISSUES,
BUT THEY'RE MAYBE NOT AS NEAT
AROUND THE HOUSE AS THAT... YOU WANTED. OR THEY'RE
NOT AS PHYSICALLY, SEXUALLY
INTERESTED AS YOU WANT, OR WHATEVER THE CRITERIA
IS THAT YOU HAD, ROMANTIC OR, YOU KNOW, AS GOOD OF A COOK
AS YOU WANT, ALL THE DIFFERENT
THINGS THAT WE WANT IN A SPOUSE, AND SOMEHOW THEY FALL SHORT,
AND WE GET DISAPPOINTED. AND HOW WE HANDLE
THAT DISAPPOINTMENT OR NOT... CAN LEAD TO A DESTRUCTIVE
MARRIAGE OR A BETTER MARRIAGE. AND THE SECOND ISSUE
IS A DIFFICULT MARRIAGE, AND THAT'S WHEN THERE'S
A LOT OF EXTERNAL STRESSORS: IN-LAW PROBLEMS,
FINANCIAL PROBLEMS, JOB LOSSES, CHILDREN WHO ARE
SPECIAL NEEDS, ASPERGER'S, OTHER PROBLEMS
THAT JUST CREATE A LOT
OF STRESS IN THE MARRIAGE. AND HOW A COUPLE HANDLES THOSE,
WITH RESPECT OR MUTUAL CARE
AND PROBLEM-SOLVING SKILLS, OR NOT, AND THEY
EXPLODE AND MELT DOWN
IN FRONT OF EACH OTHER, CAN TAKE A DIFFICULT
MARRIAGE AND EITHER
BECOME MORE DESTRUCTIVE, OR IT CAN GROW INTO
A STRONGER MARRIAGE. TIM: SO WHEN IT BECOME...
WHEN DOES IT BECOME DESTRUCTIVE?
WHEN DOES IT STEP OVER A LINE? LESLIE: SO THE EMOTIONALLY
DESTRUCTIVE MARRIAGE IS MORE
WHEN SOMEONE FEELS... REGULARLY DOMINATED,
DEMEANED, DEGRADED,
DECEIVED, OR DISMISSED. AND THOSE THINGS AREN'T JUST
DISAPPOINTING OR DIFFICULT. THEY ARE LETHAL TO THE
PERSONHOOD OF THE INDIVIDUAL, AND TO THE INTEGRITY AND ABILITY
FOR THE MARRIAGE TO THRIVE. TIM: AND YOU KNOW, THERE'S
A REALLY GOOD BOOK OUT THERE
AND I HAPPEN TO KNOW THE AUTHOR, AND SHE'S WRITTEN THIS IN
HER BOOK... OH, THAT'S YOU... CHRIS, HAVE YOU SEEN
THAT AS A PASTOR? CHRIS: OH, I... I THINK WHAT
YOU... WHAT YOU GET IS... THAT THE SCRIPTURES CAN
BECOME LIKE ANY TOOL, RIGHT? AND IN THE HANDS OF A...
A PERSON WHO WIELDS POWER... AND THAT'S ONE THING I WOULD...
I WOULD ADD TO THE DISCUSSION, THAT RELATIONSHIPS
ARE DESTRUCTIVE WHEN THAT
MUTUALITY BEGINS TO DISSIPATE, AND YOU HAVE ONE PERSON
WHO EXERCISES POWER AND
CONTROL OVER ANOTHER. AND THE SCRIPTURES
ARE LIKE ANYTHING...
ANY TOOL THAT WE USE. WE COULD USE FINANCES.
WE COULD USE FAMILY HISTORY. WE COULD USE RACE. WE COULD
USE ANY NUMBER OF TOOLS, BUT PEOPLE WHO ARE
POWER-HUNGRY ARE JUST AS
HAPPY TO USE THE SCRIPTURES. AND SO YEAH, WE'LL SEE THAT
QUITE A BIT AMONG MEN WHO
CLAIM TO BE CHRISTIANS, IN PARTICULAR, MEN WHO I WORK
WITH, WHO WILL USE EPHESIANS
5, COLOSSIANS 3 AS TOOLS. TIM: HEY, LET ME READ THE POLL
RESULTS FROM OUR AUDIENCE HERE. SO FROM THAT, WE HAVE ALMOST
60 PERCENT OF PEOPLE... EITHER ARE THINKING
THEY'RE IN AN EMOTIONALLY
DESTRUCTIVE RELATIONSHIP, OR THEY HAVE
A LOVED ONE THAT... THEY ARE PRETTY SURE
THEY'RE IN AN EMOTIONALLY
DESTRUCTIVE RELATIONSHIP. THIS... THIS IS SOMETHING THAT
CUTS ACROSS SOCIO-ECONOMIC
BARRIERS, ISN'T IT? THIS... THIS IS
PRETTY PREVALENT. LESLIE: EVERY CULTURE, EVERY
RACE, EVERY SOCIO-ECONOMIC... YOU KNOW, EXHIBITS PROBLEMS
IN RELATIONSHIPS. AND I THINK IT'S
REALLY IMPORTANT... THE SCRIPTURES ARE
SO CLEAR THAT RELATIONSHIP'S
AT THE VERY HEART OF GOD. YOU KNOW, HE WANTS US
TO LEARN TO LOVE. THERE'S NOTHING MORE IMPORTANT
TO HIM THAN WE LEARN TO LOVE. AND WE'VE SO MESSED IT UP
AS SINNERS AND AS PEOPLE, THAT THE CHURCH IS THE FIRST
PLACE THAT WE NEED TO TEACH
TRUTH ABOUT HOW TO REPAIR... AND DEAL WITH RELATIONSHIP
WOUNDS AND TO REALLY BE ABLE TO
INSTRUCT AND CORRECT THOSE... WHO ARE MISUSING THE SCRIPTURES
AND THEIR AUTHORITY OR POWER... TO CONTROL, SQUASH, OR DEMEAN,
OR DECEIVE ANOTHER PERSON, ESPECIALLY IF THEY'RE LIVING
WITH THAT PERSON AS A SPOUSE. CHRIS:
THE UNFORTUNATE REALITY... AND ONE OF THE REASONS WHY
WE'RE DOING THIS WEBINAR, AND I'M SO THANKFUL
THAT YOU GUYS ARE WILLING
TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION... THE UNFORTUNATE REALITY IS WHILE
THIS CUTS THROUGH ALL CLASSES,
SOCIO-ECONOMIC, ET CETERA, THERE'S ALSO NO DISCERNABLE
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE OUTSIDE
WORLD AND THE CHURCH, AND I FIND THAT TO BE TROUBLING. AND SO UNTIL WE START
HAVING THESE CONVERSATIONS, I DON'T THINK WE'RE GOING
TO SEE THE TRANSITION. WE'VE SAID IT BEFORE, THE
CHURCH SHOULD BE A SAFE PLACE, SO I'M HAPPY WE'RE HAVING THIS
DISCUSSION SO THAT WE CAN... PINPOINT THE PLACE
WHERE HOPE SHOULD BE FOUND,
WHICH IS IN THE CHURCH. LESLIE: ABSOLUTELY.
THERE'S MORE HOPE FOUND
IN THE OUTSIDE WORLD... FOR MANY WOMEN IN
DESTRUCTIVE MARRIAGES BECAUSE
THEY CAN GO TO A COUNSELOR, OR THEY CAN GO TO A DOMESTIC
VIOLENCE SHELTER... AND BE HEARD AND VALIDATED AND
BELIEVED AND GIVEN SOME TOOLS. WHEN THEY SOMETIMES
GO TO THE CHURCH THEY'RE
TOLD, "TRY HARDER. YOU KNOW, "BE A BETTER WIFE
AND YOUR HUSBAND WOULDN'T
TREAT YOU THIS WAY. "IT'S PROBABLY YOUR FAULT
ANYWAY 'CAUSE YOU'RE NOT
SUBMISSIVE ENOUGH." AND SO SOMETIMES THE CHURCH
ISN'T NOT ONLY A SAFE PLACE,
IT'S A DANGEROUS PLACE. CHRIS: DANGEROUS PLACE.
VERY, VERY TRUE. TIM: SO HOW PREVALENT
IS THIS? YOU SAID IT'S IN... THERE'S
NO DISCERNABLE DIFFERENCE
BETWEEN IN THE CHURCH... AND IN THE CULTURE
AROUND THE CHURCH. HOW FREQUENT
DOES THIS HAPPEN? LESLIE: WELL,
STATISTICS SHOW THAT ONE
IN FOUR CHRISTIAN WOMEN... REPORT BEING IN
A DESTRUCTIVE MARRIAGE. TIM: ONE IN FOUR.
THAT'S 25 PERCENT. LESLIE: 25 PERCENT. AND THAT'S
JUST THE ONES WHO TELL. THERE'S PLENTY OF WOMEN WHO
DON'T TELL, OR MEN WHO DON'T
TELL BECAUSE IT'S SHAMEFUL. THEY'RE AFRAID.
MAYBE THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW THEY
ARE BECAUSE THEY GREW UP IN ONE, AND SO IT JUST FEELS
NORMAL TO THEM. CHRIS: OR THEY DON'T KNOW
THAT THEY'RE ALLOWED
TO TALK ABOUT IT. AND THAT'S ONE OF
THE THINGS THAT THE CHURCH
CAN DO A MUCH BETTER JOB IS... IS FREEING OURSELVES TO ACTUALLY
HAVE THIS TYPE OF CONVERSATION. TIM: SO FOR ALL OF US,
WHEN WE WALK INTO CHURCH THIS
NEXT SUNDAY AND LOOK AROUND, WE CAN BE FAIRLY CONFIDENT
THAT AT LEAST 25 PERCENT OF
THE WOMEN IN THAT CHURCH... PROBABLY ARE UNDER
SOME FORM OF EMOTIONAL,
MENTAL DURESS IN THEIR HOME. CHRIS: SURE. ANY GIVEN SUNDAY,
WE COULD ADD, EVERYONE IN THE CONGREGATION
IS SUFFERING UNDER SOME
WEIGHT, BUT IN A SPECIFIC AREA, THAT SPECIFIC
PROBLEM SHOULD CAUSE US TO CHECK
OURSELVES A LITTLE BIT AND SAY, "THAT'S A BIT OVERWHELMING."
AND IT LEADS TO MORE
DISCUSSIONS LIKE THIS. BUT ABSOLUTELY, YEAH,
I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT. WE...
WE CAN, OBVIOUSLY AS PASTORS, I CAN LOOK OUT IN
THE CONGREGATION AND SAY, "WOW, IT'S A GOOD
CHANCE THAT 25 PERCENT OF
THE WOMEN IN THE ROOM ARE... "ARE SUFFERING
IN SOME... SOME WAY." TIM: SO LET'S TALK TO
THE... THE 38 PERCENT HERE... WHO THINK THEY MAY
BE IN AN EMOTIONALLY
DESTRUCTIVE RELATIONSHIP. WHAT ARE SOME OF
THE THINGS THAT WOULD HELP
THEM UNDERSTAND... DEFINE... WHAT WOULD THEY SEE? WHAT
WOULD YOU SEE THAT YOU SAY,
"OKAY, HERE'S AN INDICATION."? WHAT ARE SOME OF THE EARMARKS
THAT THIS IS AN EMOTIONALLY
DESTRUCTIVE RELATIONSHIP? LESLIE: I THINK TWO THINGS
THAT ARE REALLY IMPORTANT... FOR ANYBODY WHO SUSPECTS
THAT THEY MIGHT BE IS, ONE:
IS DO YOU HAVE A VOICE? DO YOU HAVE THE FREEDOM TO
SPEAK YOUR MIND, DISAGREE,
SHARE YOUR OPINION, MAKE A DECISION,
DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT
THAN YOUR SPOUSE WANTS? CAN YOU DO THAT WITHOUT
A HEAVY PRICE TO PAY? AND OFTENTIMES PEOPLE
WHO ARE IN DESTRUCTIVE
RELATIONSHIPS CANNOT. THEY HAVE NO VOICE.
THEY HAVE NO FREEDOM,
OR IT'S VERY LIMITED FREEDOM, AND IT MIGHT BE LIMITED
FREEDOM IN A CERTAIN AREA. FOR EXAMPLE, I JUST GOT AN EMAIL
FROM A WOMAN TODAY AND SHE SAID, "YOU KNOW, MY HUSBAND SAYS
I'M NOT ALLOWED TO VISIT MY
MOTHER UNLESS HE SAYS I CAN. "IS THAT OKAY? AM I SUPPOSED
TO SUBMIT TO THAT?" AND SO HE'S TRYING TO
RESTRICT HER ABILITY TO HAVE
CONTACT WITH OTHER PEOPLE, SHE CAN ONLY HAVE CONTACT IF...
IF HE SAYS SO. AND SO
THAT MIGHT BE ONE AREA. FINANCES: "YOU CAN'T SPEND
MONEY. YOU CAN'T DECIDE TO SPEND
MONEY UNLESS I TELL YOU YOU CAN, "AND IF YOU DO
YOU HAVE TO BE ACCOUNTABLE,
BUT I'M NOT ACCOUNTABLE." SO THOSE WOULD BE
SOME AREAS WHERE THIS POWER
OVER, LIKE CHRIS MENTIONED, OR WHERE SOMEONE
DOESN'T HAVE THE FREEDOM
TO CHOOSE HER OWN WAY, THEN THAT WOULD BE
A HUGE RED FLAG THAT THIS
RELATIONSHIP IS DESTRUCTIVE. CHRIS: ABSOLUTELY.
AND I WOULD... I WOULD
POINT OUT, TOO, IF YOU'RE... IF YOU'RE INTERACTING
WITH AN INDIVIDUAL WHO
EXERCISES POWER OVER, ONE OF THE THINGS
YOU WANT TO QUESTION AND
DECIPHER IS THE MOTIVES. SO YOU MIGHT WANT TO ASK IN...
IN THE CASE OF THE ISOLATION, "YOU CAN'T SEE YOUR MOTHER
WITHOUT MY PERMISSION." NOW, I MIGHT BE TALKING
TO THIS INDIVIDUAL AND SAY, "WHAT IS IT YOU WANT?
OR WHAT IS IT YOU DON'T WANT? "WHAT IS IT YOU'RE AFRAID
IS GOING TO HAPPEN? "WHAT IS IT YOU SUSPECT WILL
HAPPEN? WHAT MOTIVATES YOU?" AND ONCE YOU DRILL DOWN,
YOU'LL START TO SEE THOSE
PATTERNS OF CONTROL, AND THOSE CAN
BE GOOD INDICATORS. NOW, YOU KNOW,
IT'S DIFFICULT TO ALWAYS BE
ABLE TO CONFRONT LIKE THAT. BUT I KNOW IF I WAS DEALING
WITH THAT INDIVIDUAL, THAT'D BE SOME OF THE QUESTIONS
I WOULD WANT TO ASK TO UNVEIL
THAT HEART OF CONTROL. TIM: SO YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
A CONTROLLING KIND OF ABUSE, BUT LESLIE, IN YOUR BOOK
YOU TALK ABOUT A REACTIVE
KIND OF ABUSE, AS WELL. WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE
BETWEEN THOSE TWO? LESLIE: YOU KNOW,
REACTIVE ABUSE IS OFTENTIMES,
LIKE PAUL SAYS IN GALATIANS, HE SAYS: "WATCH OUT. QUIT BITING
AND DEVOURING EACH OTHER OR YOU
WILL DESTROY EACH OTHER." AND SOMETIMES INDIVIDUALS
GET MARRIED. THEY'VE GROWN
UP IN DESTRUCTIVE HOMES. THEY ARE IMMATURE. THEY DON'T
KNOW HOW TO HANDLE FRUSTRATIONS, EMOTIONS, THEIR FEELINGS
WISELY AND SO THEY REACT. THEY DO DESTRUCTIVE THINGS.
THEY SAY THINGS THAT
ARE INAPPROPRIATE. THEY CALL EACH OTHER NAMES.
THEY MAY... AND... AND IT MIGHT JUST
BE ONE-SIDED OR IT MIGHT
BE BOTH, BACK AND FORTH. AND SO THAT RELATIONSHIP
CAN BE JUST AS LETHAL... AND JUST AS DESTRUCTIVE
AS A CONTROLLING RELATIONSHIP. BUT THE UNDERLYING DYNAMICS: ONE
PERSON ISN'T NECESSARILY TRYING
TO CONTROL THE OTHER PERSON. THEY'RE JUST REACTING
TO THE LIFE CIRCUMSTANCES
THAT ARE STRESSFUL. AND OFTENTIMES WHAT...
THE TRICKY THING ABOUT
IT IS OFTENTIMES... A WOMAN WHO'S IN A CONTROLLING
RELATIONSHIP WITH A MAN WHO'S
BEEN DOMINATING HER, SHE'LL START
REACTING ABUSIVELY BECAUSE...
LIKE, "GET AWAY FROM ME" OR "STOP..."
YOU KNOW, "STOP TRYING
TO RESTRICT MY MOVEMENT." AND SHE PUSHES HIM TO
GET OUT THE DOOR OR SOMETHING
LIKE THAT, AND THEN SHE'S... TIM: AND THEN SHE'S ACCUSED
OF BEING ABUSIVE. LESLIE: AND OFTENTIMES, IN THE
COUNSELING SITUATION, A PASTOR
CAN'T TELL THE DIFFERENCE, BECAUSE HE'LL SAY,
"WELL, YOU'RE BOTH ABUSIVE.
YOU BOTH DID THE WRONG THING." AND SO IT CAN BE
VERY TRICKY TO DISCERN,
AND IT'S HARD FOR WOMEN TO... TO CLARIFY WHAT'S
REALLY GOING ON SO THEY CAN
SPEAK UP FOR THEMSELVES. CHRIS: YEAH, THAT'S ABSOLUTELY
A KEY POINT FOR PASTORS AND
CHURCH LEADERS TO UNDERSTAND, THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN
THAT CONTROLLING... AND I APPRECIATE THE WAY
LESLIE DOES THAT IN THE BOOK... THE CONTROLLING ABUSE
VERSUS RESISTANCE. AND IT... IT'S UNDERSTANDABLE
THAT SOMEBODY'S WHO BEING
CONTROLLED IS GOING TO BE ANGRY. AND CERTAINLY WE'LL...
WE'LL ADDRESS THAT, BUT NOT
IN THE CONTEXT OF THE ABUSE. WE MIGHT ADDRESS THAT
OUTSIDE OF THE ABUSE AND SAY, "LOOK AT HOW YOU CAN RESPOND.
LOOK AT HOW YOU CAN
DO THINGS BETTER." BUT IN THE CONTEXT OF THE ABUSE,
WE WANT TO HOLD THE CONTROLLING
PERSON ACCOUNTABLE, RIGHT? AND COMFORT THOSE WHO
ARE SUFFERING, AND DO THAT
IN A VERY DEMONSTRATIVE WAY, MAKE A CLEAR MESSAGE THAT THIS
IS HOW WE'RE APPROACHING IT. TIM: AND ONE OF THE THINGS
I HAVE FOUND IS THAT THERE'S
ALWAYS SOME ELEMENT OF FEAR... IN THE PERSON THAT I WOULD
IDENTIFY AS THE PERSON... WHO'S MORE THE VICTIM
IN THE RELATIONSHIP. THEY FEEL THREATENED
IN SOME SIGNIFICANT WAY.
WOULD YOU FIND THAT TO BE TRUE? LESLIE: YEAH, AND I THINK THAT'S
ANOTHER REALLY IMPORTANT SIGN OF
A DESTRUCTIVE RELATIONSHIP, IS YOUR...
YOUR EMOTIONAL THERMOMETER, YOUR EMOTIONAL WELL-BEING
AND YOUR PHYSICAL WELL-BEING. SO WHEN YOU'RE FEELING
AFRAID OF SOMEONE IN A REGULAR
WAY, YOU'RE AFRAID TO SPEAK UP. YOU'RE AFRAID TO DISAGREE,
YOUR BODY SHAKES WHEN
YOU'RE AROUND THEM, YOU'RE TENSE, THAT'S A SIGN
THAT THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG. IF YOU FEEL CONFUSED, LIKE, "WE
CAN NEVER HAVE A CONVERSATION. "I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT
HE'S TALKING ABOUT. EVERYTHING
SWITCHES THE SUBJECT. "EVERYTHING ALWAYS BECOMES
ABOUT ME." WHEN YOU START TO
FEEL YOU'RE GOING CRAZY INSIDE, THAT'S ANOTHER SIGN THAT YOU'RE
IN A DESTRUCTIVE RELATIONSHIP. TIM: OR YOU SEND SOMETHING BACK.
SHE SAYS SOMETHING BACK TO HIM.
HE SAYS, "I NEVER SAID THAT." LESLIE: "I NEVER SAID THAT." TIM: "I NEVER SAID THOSE WORDS."
BUT YOU CAN MEAN SOMETHING, AND COMMUNICATE
A MESSAGE WITHOUT SAYING
THE EXACT WORDS, CAN'T YOU? LESLIE: WELL, OR IT JUST
BECOMES CRAZY-MAKING. I REMEMBER
A WOMAN SAID TO HER HUSBAND, YOU KNOW, SHE WAS ANGRY THAT
HE WAS HOME LATE SO SHE SAID, "COULD YOU JUST CALL ME
WHEN YOU'RE GOING TO COME
HOME? JUST CALL ME." AND HE SAID, "OKAY."
SO THE NEXT TIME HE WAS
LATE, HE DIDN'T CALL, AND SHE SAID, "YOU KNOW, I'M
REALLY MAD YOU DIDN'T CALL ME." AND HE GOES,
"I NEVER SAID I'D CALL YOU.
YOU'RE TRYING TO CONTROL ME." SO NOW IT'S LIKE, "WHAT?
I THOUGHT WE AGREED THAT
YOU WERE GOING TO CALL ME, "AND NOW YOU'RE CALL... I'M NOT
TRYING TO CONTROL YOU." AND SO NOW IT BECOMES
A DISCUSSION ABOUT HER
NOT TRYING TO CONTROL HIM, EXCEPT FOR HIM NOT HONORING
THE AGREEMENT THAT THEY MADE
THAT NOW HE SAYS HE DIDN'T MAKE. AND SO IT BECOMES REALLY
CONFUSING WHEN THAT HAPPENS
OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. TIM: SO THERE'S MIND GAMES.
THERE'S... THERE'S DECEPTION. THERE CAN BE JUST
VICIOUS NAME-CALLING. I MEAN, SOME OF THE THINGS
I'VE HEARD PEOPLE SAY TO
ONE ANOTHER IN MY OFFICE, I'M LIKE... I'D BE EMBARRASSED
TO SAY THAT OUT LOUD. BUT IT'S THE...
THE LEVEL OF CRUELTY SOMETIMES
THAT IS USED TO DEMEAN, 'CAUSE THAT'S THE WORD YOU'VE
USED, TO DEMEAN AND BELITTLE... IS ALL ABOUT THAT POWER
AND CONTROL ISN'T IT? CHRIS: WELL, YEAH, THE...
THE IDEA OF JUSTIFYING BEHAVIOR. AND PRIDE DOES THAT
FOR EVERYBODY. PRIDE CONVINCES US THAT
INAPPROPRIATE BEHAVIOR'S OKAY
WHEN IT GETS ME WHAT I WANT. BUT THE REALITY IS
FOR THE CHRISTIAN,
AND I WOULD SAY FOR THE... FOR THE CHRISTIAN WHO'S LIVING
IN THAT RELATIONSHIP WHERE
THEY'RE... THEY'RE DOMINANT... FOR THE CHRISTIAN, IT'S JUST
AS INAPPROPRIATE. THE IDEA
THAT WE DON'T OBEY OUR PRIDE. WE'RE NOT GOD. AND AT THE END OF
THE DAY, GOD'S GOING TO GET HIS. I... I SOMETIMES TALK
TO GUYS ABOUT NEBUCHADNEZZAR.
YOU REMEMBER THAT DUDE? AND HE HAD HIS
"MOHAMMED ALI" MOMENT,
YOU KNOW, "I AM THE GREATEST." AND THEN GOD TOOK SOME SERIOUS
STEPS WITH THAT DUDE. NOW, I'M NOT SAYING THAT
HE'S GOING TO TURN ABUSIVE
PEOPLE INTO BEASTS OR COWS, BUT HE TAKES PRIDE VERY
SERIOUSLY. AND IT'S AT THE HEART
OF THIS CONTROLLING BEHAVIOR, BECAUSE WHAT I WANT
IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN WHAT
YOU NEED OR WHAT GOD REQUIRES. LESLIE: WELL, I THINK
THE REALLY TRICKY THING, TOO,
TO ADD TO WHAT CHRIS IS SAYING, FOR THE CHRISTIAN MAN
WHO BELIEVES WHAT HE WANTS
IS TOTALLY BIBLICAL, LIKE, "I JUST WANT
YOU TO SUBMIT. I JUST
WANT YOU TO SHUT UP. "I JUST WANT YOU TO
RESPECT ME." SO NOW... TIM: "DO WHAT I TOLD YOU TO DO." LESLIE:
"DO WHAT I DO." AND WE SORT
OF DO THIS AS PARENTS, TOO. I MEAN, WE EXCUSE BEING ABUSIVE
TO OUR CHILDREN EMOTIONALLY... BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT
LISTENING. THEY'RE NOT OBEYING. AND WE SORT OF FEEL JUSTIFIED
IN THAT MOMENT BECAUSE WE'RE
NOT GETTING WHAT WE WANT. AND SO IT'S A VERY
TRICKY DYNAMIC. THE TRUTH IS THAT GOD NEVER
PROMISES US THAT WE'RE GOING
TO GET EVERYTHING WE WANT... EVEN IF WHAT WE WANT
IS BIBLICAL, EVEN IF
WHAT WE WANT IT IS GOOD. AND SO PART OF
HEALING FROM ABUSE AND
LEARNING NOT TO ABUSE... IS TO LEARN TO DEAL
WITH YOUR EMOTIONS... OF DISAPPOINTMENT AND ANGER WHEN
YOU DON'T GET WHAT YOU WANT. CHRIS: YEAH.
EVEN A CURSORY READING OF
THE NEW TESTAMENT WILL SHOW... THAT PERSEVERANCE IS
THE ROAD TO MATURITY. SO ONE OF THE KEY ASPECTS
OF THE CHRISTIAN LIFE IS
NOT GETTING WHAT WE WANT, AND LEARNING HOW TO
HONOR GOD IN THE PROCESS,
TO MAKE HIS GLORY A PRIORITY. TIM: WELL, I THINK ONE OF
THE THINGS THAT'S GOING TO BE
HELPFUL FOR OUR LISTENERS IS... IN THE... THE TWO CHAPTERS OF
YOUR BOOK THAT WE'RE MAKING
AVAILABLE TO THEM TO DOWNLOAD, THERE'S THAT 61-QUESTION
LIST AT THE END THAT
THEY CAN TAKE A TEST, THAT ONCE THEY GO THROUGH
THAT, THERE'S SOME "AHA'S"
THAT COME THROUGH THERE. I READ DOWN THROUGH THAT TEST,
AND I THOUGHT, "MAN, THIS... THIS HELPS ME
TO KIND OF CHECK OFF, THIS IS
WHAT'S REALLY GOING ON," AND TO BEGIN TO IDENTIFY...
BECAUSE I THINK HELPING
THEM IDENTIFY... BEGINS TO NOW GIVE THEM
POWER... EMPOWER THEM TO SAY, "WAIT A MINUTE. THERE'S
SOMETHING WRONG HERE THAT
I NEED TO BE ABLE TO DEAL WITH." LESLIE: YEAH. AND IT GIVES
THEM CLARITY AND IT GIVES THEM
SOMETHING OBJECTIVE, THEN, TO SAY, "OKAY, THIS NEEDS
TO CHANGE. NOW, HOW DOES
THIS CHANGE? WHAT DO WE DO?" TIM: SO THAT'S THE QUESTION.
WHAT IF A PERSON SAYS... THEY'RE
LISTENING TO US AND THEY SAY, "OKAY. I THINK I'M IN ONE
OF THESE. WHAT DO I DO?" WHAT DO YOU RECOMMEND
AS A PASTOR, AS A COUNSELOR? WHAT ARE SOME THINGS
YOU WOULD SAY TO THEM? LESLIE: WELL, ONE OF THE THINGS
THAT WE MAKE A MISTAKE... A WOMAN WHO'S IN A DESTRUCTIVE
MARRIAGE MAKES THE MISTAKE OF
TRYING TO CHANGE HER HUSBAND. THAT'S THE FIRST THING
THAT SHE THINKS. "IF ONLY
HE WOULD BE DIFFERENT, "THEN, YOU KNOW, OUR
MARRIAGE WOULD BE GREAT." AND SO SHE PUTS A LOT OF
ENERGY IN TRYING TO CHANGE HIM,
AND USUALLY THAT BACKFIRES. OR SHE PUTS IN A LOT OF ENERGY
IN TRYING TO PLEASE HIM, THINKING, "IF ONLY I CAN
PLEASE HIM. IF ONLY I CAN
LIVE UP TO HIS STANDARDS. "IF ONLY I CAN TRY HARDER,
LOVE HIM MORE, MEET HIS
NEEDS, COOK HIS DINNER, "BRING HIS SLIPPERS,
WHATEVER THE REQUIREMENTS
ARE, I WILL TRY TO DO THAT." UNFORTUNATELY, BECAUSE SHE'S AN
IMPERFECT, FLAWED HUMAN BEING... SHE'LL NEVER BE ABLE TO DO
IT, AND THE BAR ALWAYS CHANGES, AND THE RULES ALWAYS CHANGE,
TOO. AND SO SHE'S ALWAYS GOING
TO HAVE SOME WAY SHE FAILS HIM. AND HE'S GOING TO HAVE,
THEN, SOME REASON TO BLAME
HER FOR HIS ABUSIVE INCIDENT. SO THE CHANGE, IF A WOMAN
IS HEARING THIS AND LISTENING,
IS THE CHANGE STARTS HERE. SHE HAS TO BEGIN TO RECOGNIZE
THAT GOD DOES NOT WANT HER TO
LIVE IN AN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP. AND SHE HAS TO START EMPOWERING
HERSELF TO GET STRONG ENOUGH... TO BE ABLE TO SPEAK
INTO HER HUSBAND'S LIFE IN
A GODLY, STRONG, CLEAR WAY. TIM: NOW, YOU'RE SAYING
SOMETHING VERY DIFFERENT THAN IF
THEY WENT TO MARITAL COUNSELING, AND HE'S LOOKING AT HER
SAYING, "YOU ARE THE PROBLEM.
YOU NEED TO CHANGE." LESLIE:
"AND IF ONLY YOU WOULD DO
THIS, I WOULDN'T ACT THIS WAY." TIM: RIGHT. BUT YOU'RE TALKING
ABOUT THAT SHE STILL NEEDS TO
FOCUS ON CHANGING HER. LESLIE: SHE NEEDS
TO CHANGE HER, BECAUSE WHAT
HAPPENS WHEN YOU'VE BEEN SO... BEATEN DOWN BY SOMEONE
THAT YOU ARE SQUASHED
OR CRUSHED AS A PERSON, IS THAT YOU NEED TO BEGIN TO
REGAIN YOUR OWN SELF-RESPECT, AND YOU NEED TO REALIZE THAT,
YOU KNOW, SO OFTEN WOMEN HAVE
BEEN GROOMED TO BE MAN-CENTERED. WE, YOU KNOW, BOW DOWN TO THE
IDOL OF HAVING A GREAT MARRIAGE, AND THAT BECOMES OUR
"DO-ALL-AND-BE-ALL",
THAT, "I'M A... "I'M A SUCCESSFUL WOMAN
IF I GET A MAN TO LOVE ME, "AND I GET A GOOD HUSBAND
OR A GREAT MARRIAGE" AND IF THAT DOESN'T
HAPPEN WE BEGIN TO START
TO FALL INTO OURSELVES. SO I REALLY TELL WOMEN THAT
THEY HAVE TO REALLY REORIENT
THEIR THINKING AROUND GOD FIRST, THAT THEY HAVE TO BECOME
GOD-CENTERED WOMEN,
AND HE IS FOR THEM. HE IS FOR THEM IN THIS INSTANCE.
HE IS FOR THE OPPRESSED.
HE IS FOR THE ABUSED, AND SO HE WANTS TO HELP EQUIP
THEM TO BE WHAT THE BIBLE
CALLS IS A HELPMATE. "A STRONG WARRIOR, AN EASER,"
THE SCRIPTURES SAY. SO THAT SHE CAN POWERFULLY
SPEAK INTO HER HUSBAND'S LIFE,
NOT WEAKLY, NOT FEARFULLY, BUT POWERFULLY,
TO BRING ABOUT GOD'S GLORY AND
HOPEFULLY HER HUSBAND'S GOOD. CHRIS: SO NOW YOU'VE GOT
TWO PEOPLE WHERE THE ARROWS
HAVE KIND OF BEEN TURNED IN. WE'VE GOT ONE MAYBE THAT'S
SELF-PROTECTION, ONE THAT'S
SELF-GRATIFICATION. AND IT'S TIME FOR EACH
TO... TO LET THOSE ARROWS
BEGIN TO POINT OUT, TO FOCUS FIRST ON GOD'S
GLORY AND THEN ON HOW THAT'S
EXPRESSED THROUGH OTHER PEOPLE. SO IN SPEAKING TO SOMEONE
WHO USES POWER AND CONTROL, SOMEONE WHO IS
OPPRESSIVE OR ABUSIVE, THE SAME PROCESS HAS GOT
TO TAKE PLACE, BUT A LITTLE...
WITH A LITTLE DIFFERENT TWIST. THAT INDIVIDUAL THEN
IS TO FOCUS ON THEIR OWN PRIDE
AND START TO DEVELOP HUMILITY. AND BETTER TO DEVELOP HUMILITY,
BE HUMBLE, THAN BE HUMILIATED, 'CAUSE AT THE END OF
THE DAY, GOD'S GOING TO GET HIS.
HE OPPOSES THE PROUD, RIGHT? BETTER TO DEVELOP... BETTER TO
DEVELOP HUMILITY NOW... THAN TO EXPERIENCE HUMILIATION
LATER AT THE HANDS OF GOD. AND I THINK THAT'S A...
THAT'S A CHECK IN OUR SPIRIT, ESPECIALLY FOR ABUSIVE PEOPLE,
TO LOOK IN THE MIRROR AND SAY, "YOU KNOW WHAT? YOU'RE RIGHT.
I'M LISTENING, AND I'M HEARING
YOU SAY THESE THINGS. "I AM DOMINANT.
I AM CONTROLLING. I AM
SELFISH, AND I'M IN DANGER." TIM: SO THERE'S GOT TO BE
SOME KIND OF ACCOUNTABILITY FOR
THE ABUSER AND SOME TYPE OF... I THINK YOU'VE
DESCRIBED IT, LESLIE,
AS A CORE-STRENGTHENING... OF THE VICTIM IN THAT SITUATION,
SO THAT SHE CAN BECOME STRONGER, AND TO BE ABLE TO
ENGAGE IN THE RELATIONSHIP
IN A MEANINGFUL WAY. CHRIS: ABSOLUTELY. TIM: AND FOR HIM, TO BE ABLE
TO NOT MISUSE THAT POWER BUT TO
INVITE THAT KIND OF INTERACTION. BUT THAT REQUIRES
SOME SIGNIFICANT
ACCOUNTABILITY FOR HIM. CHRIS: ABSOLUTELY. AND WHAT
BETTER PLACE THAN THE CHURCH? I... I THINK ABOUT, IF WE HAD
GALATIANS 6 TYPE OF COMMUNITY, THAT WHEN OUR BROTHER OR SISTER
FALLS INTO SIN, "YOU WHO ARE
SPIRITUAL RESTORE SUCH A ONE." IF WE HAD RESTORATIVE
COMMUNITY, AND ACCOUNTABILITY'S
GOT TO BE PART OF THAT, MULTIPLE SYSTEMS OF
ACCOUNTABILITY WHERE
WE COME ALONGSIDE... PEOPLE WHO ARE HARMING OTHERS
AND SPEAK TRUTH INTO THEIR
LIFE AND DEMAND RESULTS. "CHOOSE THIS DAY,"
RIGHT? "WHO YOU'LL SERVE." ARE YOU GOING TO
GO BACK TO THE PHILOSOPHY
OF THE WORLD THAT SAYS, "I'M NUMBER ONE.
I'M IMPORTANT."? OR ARE YOU
GOING TO GO AHEAD AND SAY, "I WANNA LIVE FOR
THE GLORY OF GOD."? IF YOU CHOOSE THE GLORY OF GOD,
IT'S NOT EASY. IT'S TOUGH, AND WE'LL BE HERE
TO WALK ALONGSIDE YOU AND HOLD
YOU ACCOUNTABLE STEP-BY-STEP. TIM: IF A WOMAN'S AFRAID,
SHE NEEDS SOME TYPE OF A
SAFETY PLAN, DOESN'T SHE? LESLIE:
RIGHT, SHE NEEDS A SAFETY PLAN.
SHE NEEDS THAT CORE STRENGTH, AND SHE ALSO NEEDS
TO GET STRONG ENOUGH TO
IMPLEMENT CONSEQUENCES, AND ONE OF THOSE CONSEQUENCES
MIGHT... AND SO SHE'S AFRAID
TO IMPLEMENT CONSEQUENCES, BUT USUALLY CONSEQUENCES
ARE THE ONLY WAKE-UP CALL. SO WORDS...
YOU KNOW, THE PROVERB SAYS:
"A FOOL DOESN'T LISTEN TO WORDS. "A FOOL ONLY LISTENS
TO THE ROD," RIGHT? AND SO SOMETIMES IN A
DESTRUCTIVE MARRIAGE, YOU CAN...
YOU CAN SPEAK OUT THE WAZOO. A PASTOR CAN SPEAK, A COUNSELOR
CAN SPEAK, AND THEY'RE STILL
NOT GOING TO HEAR YOU. BUT CONSEQUENCES, LIKE IF
HE GOES TO JAIL FOR BATTERING, OR IF HE LOSES HIS RELATIONSHIP
WITH HIS WIFE AND SHE SEPARATES, THOSE CONSEQUENCES BEGIN
TO SPEAK TO HIM AND SAY, "WHOA, MAYBE I DO NEED TO LOOK
AT MYSELF A LITTLE BETTER, "OR MAYBE I DO NEED
TO GO GET SOME HELP, "BECAUSE I DON'T WANT
TO LOSE EVERYTHING THAT'S
IMPORTANT TO ME." SO A WOMAN NEEDS A SAFETY PLAN,
FOR SURE, IN HOW TO SPEAK UP
OR WHATEVER SHE'S GOING TO DO, BECAUSE PART OF
WHAT SHE'S GOING TO DO IS SO
OUTSIDE OF HER COMFORT ZONE. IT'S GOING TO BE HARD FOR
HER TO IMPLEMENT CONSEQUENCES
AND STICK WITH THEM, AND SO SHE NEEDS TO DEVELOP
THAT STRENGTH TO DO THAT. TIM: AND THIS IS WHERE
SHE NEEDS SOME HELP TO DO THAT, BECAUSE SHE'S NOT GOING TO
BE ABLE TO DO THAT ON HER OWN.
IF SHE'S BEEN BEATEN DOWN, THERE'S NO WAY SHE'S GOING
TO JUST HAVE THE RESOURCES
ALL BY HERSELF TO DO THAT. LESLIE: I DON'T THINK
EITHER THE ABUSER OR
THE VICTIM HAS THE RESOURCES... ALL BY THEMSELVES TO DEAL WITH
THIS. SO I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE
HAVE EITHER READ MY BOOK... AND IT BECOMES THIS ROAD MAP,
SO TO SPEAK: "OH, MY GOSH,
THIS IS WHAT I NEED TO DO. "I STILL NEED
SOMEONE TO WALK ALONGSIDE
OF ME TO HELP ME DO THAT." WHETHER THEY'VE BEEN
THE ABUSER... I'VE GOTTEN
LOTS OF EMAILS FROM ABUSERS... WHO HAVE READ THE BOOK
AND SAID... OR LISTENED TO
A DIFFERENT BROADCAST AND SAID, "OH, MY GOSH,
THAT'S ME, BUT I DON'T
REALLY KNOW HOW TO CHANGE." THEY NEED THAT PERSON
ALONGSIDE OF THEM, AND THAT'S WHY THE CHURCH
IS IN SUCH A PIVOTAL PLACE. CHRIS: AND NO SITUATION'S
EXACTLY THE SAME. AND NO...
NO PERSON'S EXACTLY THE SAME. AND SO YOU CAN'T SIMPLY GIVE A
FORM LETTER RESPONSE. YOU HAVE
TO HAVE A PERSONALIZED APPROACH, AND THAT'S WHY BROTHERS AND
SISTERS IN COMMUNITY-COORDINATED
RESPONSES ARE... SEEM TO BE THE MEANS
THAT WORK BEST IN HELPING
BOTH VICTIMS AND ABUSERS. TIM: SO ARE THERE SOME THINGS
FOR SOMEONE ENTRAPPED IN
A RELATIONSHIP LIKE THIS, WHO'S THE VICTIM,
LET'S SAY, ARE THERE SOME
THINGS THEY SHOULDN'T DO? CHRIS: THEY SHOULDN'T
KEEP QUIET. I BELIEVE
I'VE HEARD YOU SAY THAT. LESLIE: YEAH, YOU KNOW,
EPHESIANS 5 SAYS: "LET'S NOT PARTICIPATE IN THE
UNFRUITFUL DEEDS OF DARKNESS.
RATHER, WE'RE TO EXPOSE THEM." AND SO I THINK FOR
CHRISTIAN WOMEN, THEY'VE SO
OFTEN BEEN TAUGHT, YOU KNOW, THAT... THAT YOU NEED TO,
IN A RIGHT WAY, YOU NEED TO
WATCH YOUR HUSBAND'S BACK. YOU DON'T WANT TO
THROW HIM UNDER THE BUS. AND I'M NOT DISPARAGING
THOSE ADVICE. I THINK
THAT'S RESPECTING HIM. BUT I DON'T THINK THE SCRIPTURES
INCLUDE IN THAT KEEPING SECRETS
ABOUT SERIOUS SIN, THAT SOMETIMES THE ONLY WAY THAT
WE CAN DEAL WITH SERIOUS SIN
IS TO EXPOSE IT TO THE LIGHT, BECAUSE AS LONG
AS WE KEEP IT HIDDEN AND
WE DON'T SPEAK ABOUT IT, THE ONE WHO'S DOING
THE SINNING CAN CONTINUE
TO LIE TO THEMSELVES. YOU KNOW, THE BIBLE SAYS
ABOUT OUR OWN SELVES, WE'RE SO EASILY SELF-DECEIVING
THAT WITHOUT SOMEONE ELSE COMING
INTO HIS LIFE AND SAYING, "THIS IS INAPPROPRIATE
OR THIS IS SINFUL, "OR THIS IS DESTRUCTIVE AND THIS
IS LETHAL TO YOUR MARRIAGE," SOMETIMES THEY CAN
JUST SAY, "IT'S OKAY,"
AND, "I'M NOT THAT BAD," AND, "I WASN'T AS BAD AS
MY DAD SO THIS ISN'T ABUSE."
AND WE... WE JUST LIE. TIM: BUT CHRIS, WOULD YOU AS
A PASTOR EVER SAY TO A WOMAN
IN THIS KIND OF A SITUATION, "LOOK, YOU NEED TO PRACTICE
MATTHEW 18. GO TO YOUR HUSBAND.
CONFRONT HIM ON THIS." SHE'S AFRAID OF THE GUY. CHRIS: ABSOLUTELY NOT. I THINK
I NEED TO PRACTICE MATTHEW 18... AS ANOTHER MAN WHO GOES
AND CONFRONTS THE ISSUE
AND HAS A CONVERSATION. SO I THINK IF YOU'RE GOING TO
INITIATE CHURCH DISCIPLINE, EVEN THOSE INITIAL STEPS,
HOWEVER YOU WANT TO...
TO VIEW THAT, I THINK IT'S THE RESPONSIBILITY
OF HER BROTHERS, IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
A WOMAN IN THIS CASE, RESPONSIBILITY OF HER BROTHERS
TO STAND UP AND SAY, "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH
AND WE'RE GOING TO GET
TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS." NOW, WHAT WE'VE DONE IN THE PAST
IS WE'VE BROUGHT THEM BOTH
TOGETHER AND WE'VE DONE A... TRIED TO EVALUATE IT WITH THEM
BOTH IN THE ROOM, AND THAT
RARELY... IT NEVER WORKS. TIM:
'CAUSE SHE'S AFRAID TO TALK. CHRIS: 'CAUSE THERE'S FEAR
THERE. THERE'S AN OPPORTUNITY
TO MANIPULATE AND CONTROL. BUT DIRECT CONVERSATIONS,
ABSOLUTELY. WOULD I WANT
HER TO CONFRONT HIM? SURE, BUT IT NEEDS
TO BE PLANNED OUT WITH
SUPPORT. HOW CAN I COME... TIM: BUT SHE WOULDN'T BE
CONFRONTING HIM ALONE. CHRIS: NOT ALONE, NO. LESLIE:
WELL, AND I... I THINK...
I WANT TO BACK UP A BIT, BECAUSE SHE MIGHT CONFRONT HIM
ALONE DEPENDING ON THE DEGREE, AND DEPEND... YOU KNOW,
I MEAN IF SHE'S... IF SHE'S
HURT AND SHE'S STRESSED, AND SHE'S SICK AND TIRED
OF THE BEHAVIORS. SHE'S NOT NECESSARILY
FEARING FOR HER PHYSICAL SAFETY, BUT THERE'S BEEN A LOT
OF DECEIT. THERE'S BEEN
A LOT OF MIND GAMES. THERE'S A LOT OF TWISTING OF
INFORMATION. THERE'S A LOT
OF VERBAL, YOU KNOW, SARCASM AND PUT-DOWNS.
SHE MIGHT NOT BE AFRAID
THAT HE'S GOING TO PUNCH HER. THERE'S BEEN NO HISTORY OF
THAT. AND SO THERE MIGHT BE... AND MOST WOMEN HAVE
CONFRONTED THEIR HUSBAND. THEY HAVE SAID, "THAT HURTS.
STOP. DON'T DO THAT." AND IN A HEALTHY RELATIONSHIP,
THE OTHER PERSON WOULD SAY, "YOU KNOW, YOU'RE RIGHT. I'M
SORRY. I WON'T DO THAT ANYMORE." TIM: SO IF... IF THEY'RE
GOING TO GO FOR HELP, I HAVE ANOTHER POLL QUESTION
FOR OUR AUDIENCE HERE. YOU KNOW, WHAT KIND OF
COUNSEL HAVE YOU RECEIVED
WHEN YOU'VE ASKED FOR HELP? AND MAYBE SOME OF YOU HAVE.
YOU'VE REACHED OUT. YOU GOT
TO THAT POINT. YOU'RE SAYING, "THIS...
THIS IS DANGEROUS. THIS IS
DESTRUCTIVE. I NEED HELP." WHAT KIND OF COUNSEL
HAVE YOU RECEIVED? FILL OUT THAT POLL AND
WE'LL GET BACK TO YOU WITH
THE RESULTS AGAIN ON THAT. BECAUSE WHERE DO
YOU TURN FOR HELP? YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
WE DON'T KNOW HOW TO HANDLE
THIS VERY WELL IN THE CHURCH. I'VE MET A LOT OF
COUNSELORS, AND YOU
PROBABLY HAVE, TOO, LESLIE, THAT DON'T KNOW HOW TO
HANDLE THIS. THEY'RE TRYING
TO DO MARITAL COUNSELING. WHERE DO THEY TURN FOR...
FOR GOOD HELP? CHRIS: THERE ARE GOOD RESOURCES
PROBABLY IN YOUR COMMUNITY THAT
WOULD BE A FIRST STOP. AND I KNOW
SOMETIMES WE IN THE CHURCH,
WE GET A LITTLE NERVOUS ABOUT... ALLOWING OUTSIDERS
TO HELP, BUT SHELTERS,
THE VICTIMS' ADVOCATES, AND SOMETIMES, IN SOME CASES,
LAW ENFORCEMENT. BUT IN THIS CASE, I THINK
A SHELTER'S A GREAT PLACE
TO CALL JUST TO GET ADVICE, BECAUSE THEY'RE CONFIDENTIAL.
THEY DON'T PUSH YOU INTO
MAKING A DECISION, AND... AND THEY CAN
SPEAK INTO THAT. LESLIE: AND THEY
OFTEN HAVE FREE SUPPORT
GROUPS THAT YOU CAN GO TO, AND I THINK THAT
CAN BE VERY HELPFUL TO
BE AMONG OTHER WOMEN... WHO ARE STRUGGLING
WITH THE SAME THING, BECAUSE SORT OF WHEN YOU
HEAR SOMEONE ELSE MAKE ALL KINDS
OF EXCUSES FOR HER HUSBAND... AS TO WHY HE DOES WHAT HE DOES
AND YOU'RE THINKING TO YOURSELF, "SHE'S NUTS,"
THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU BEGIN
TO SAY, "I SHOULDN'T BE... "I DO THAT. I SHOULDN'T
BE DOING THAT EITHER."
SO THAT'S A GREAT RESOURCE. FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO MIGHT
BE MORE RURAL, YOU CAN CALL
THE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE HOTLINE. AND THEY WILL HELP YOU
WALK THROUGH A SAFETY PLAN. THEY WILL HELP YOU DETERMINE
WHAT LEVEL OF DANGER YOU'RE IN, AND THEY WILL TAKE
YOU THROUGH THE STEPS OF
WHAT YOU NEED TO DO TO... GET YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN
IN A SAFER PLACE. CHRIS: THERE'S A SURPRISING
NUMBER. IF... IF WHAT WE
WERE SAYING EARLIER... ABOUT THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE
IN OUR CHURCH WHO ARE SUFFERING, IT WOULD PROBABLY SURPRISE US
THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN OUR
CHURCH WHO ARE SURVIVORS. AND I THINK THERE'S POTENTIAL
HERE FOR THE CHURCH EVENTUALLY, AS THIS BECOMES A MORE
COMMON TOPIC, FOR WOMEN IN
PARTICULAR COME TO MY MIND, WHO WILL RISE UP AND SAY,
"I'VE GONE THROUGH IT. I'M
WILLING TO... TO COME ALONGSIDE. "I'M IN A GOOD PLACE. I'VE, YOU
KNOW, LEFT WELL OR STAYED WELL." AND SO WHERE THERE'S
PEOPLE IN OUR CONGREGATION,
I THINK CAN SPEAK INTO THAT, BUT THAT WON'T HAPPEN UNTIL
WE BEGIN TO TALK ABOUT IT AS
MEN AND AS SENIOR PASTORS. LESLIE: AND EVEN AS MEN...
I HAVE A MAN WHO I'VE WORKED
WITH FOR OVER THREE YEARS, AND HE'S AT A GOOD
PLACE NOW. AND SO HE JUST
CALLED ME AND HE SAID, "I JUST MET A MAN WHO'S GOING
THROUGH WHAT I WENT THROUGH, "AND HOW CAN I WALK
ALONGSIDE OF HIM?" AND SO FOR MEN AND WOMEN
TO BEGIN TO SPEAK OUT
ABOUT THIS PROBLEM, AND TO ENCOURAGE
ONE ANOTHER AND TO HOLD
EACH OTHER ACCOUNTABLE... TO THE WORK THAT
NEEDS TO BE DONE, BECAUSE IT'S NOT ENOUGH
JUST TO SAY, "I'M SORRY.
I WON'T DO IT AGAIN." THAT'S NOT ENOUGH. TIM: AND THERE'S GOT TO BE
SOMETHING EMPOWERING FOR A MAN
WHO HAS BEEN THERE, DONE THAT, AND HAS GROWN THROUGH THAT
TO SAY, "THIS WASN'T JUST
FOR ME TO GET HEALTHY. "I CAN PASS THIS ON
TO SOMEBODY... I CAN
HELP SOMEBODY ELSE." AND AGAIN, THAT...
THAT CAN CATCH FIRE. CHRIS: YEAH, SOUNDS LIKE
DISCIPLESHIP, RIGHT? LEARNING AND GROWING
IN GRACE AND THEN... TIM: IT'S A PRETTY INTENSIVE
KIND OF DISCIPLESHIP, FOR SURE. LESLIE: AND NOT ONLY THAT.
WHAT SATAN MEANS FOR EVIL... BECAUSE, YOU KNOW,
AS MUCH AS WE'D LIKE TO THINK
THAT OUR SPOUSE IS OUR ENEMY, AND... AND IT MIGHT FEEL LIKE
THAT, THE REAL ENEMY IS SATAN. AND HE WANTS TO DESTROY FAMILIES
AND HE WANTS TO DESTROY HOMES
BECAUSE IT RUINS THE CULTURE. AND SO IF THIS CAN HAPPEN
IN THE CHURCH, AND IT DOES, THEN WHAT BETTER GLORY WOULD
GOD HAVE FOR A MAN TO SAY, "YOU KNOW, YOU MEANT
THIS FOR EVIL AS YOU
GOT A HOLD OF MY HEART, "BUT... BUT GOD'S GOING TO
USE IT FOR GOOD. AND I'M GOING
TO SPEAK TO OTHER MEN, "AND I'M GOING TO SPEAK UP
ABOUT THE WAY MEN TREAT WOMAN,
THE WAY MEN THINK ABOUT WOMEN, "THE WAY MEN THINK THAT,
YOU KNOW, WOMEN ARE JUST OBJECTS
THAT THEY CAN USE FOR..." AND IT'S CULTURAL.
IT'S ALL OVER THE PLACE THAT
WOMEN ARE JUST OBJECTS... TO BE USED FOR
WHATEVER A MAN WANTS. TIM: HEY, LISTEN TO THE
RESULTS FROM... FROM OUR POLL. THAT'S PRETTY TELLING
OF THE KIND OF ADVICE
PEOPLE ARE HEARING, WHICH, NO WONDER
THERE'S A DESPERATION. LESLIE: LET ME JUST ADDRESS THIS
"TRY HARDER" BECAUSE I THINK
THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WOMEN
OFTEN HEAR, OBVIOUSLY, IS, "TRY HARDER AND THINGS
WILL GO BETTER FOR YOU." BUT WHAT THIS DOES IS
IT FEEDS TWO LIES. THE FIRST LIE IS:
"SOMEHOW IT'S MY RESPONSIBILITY
TO MAKE HIM NOT ACT THIS WAY, "AND SO IF ONLY I CAN
FIGURE IT OUT AND DO IT,
SOMEHOW I'LL BE SUCCESSFUL... "AT GETTING HIM TO
STOP HIS ABUSIVE BEHAVIOR."
IT DOES NOT WORK. IT ONLY EXASPERATES
HIS ENTITLEMENT, THAT YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO
WORK REALLY HARD AT NOT
UPSETTING MY WORLD, RIGHT? WHICH IS IMPOSSIBLE.
THE SECOND LIE IT FEEDS IS THAT, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE
FOR MY OUTBURSTS, AND IF ONLY YOU DID IT RIGHT,
THEN I WOULDN'T ACT THIS WAY. AND SO IT JUST FEEDS THE
DESTRUCTIVE CYCLE. IT JUST GETS
BIGGER AND BIGGER AND BIGGER. AND SO IT'S THE ABSOLUTE WORST
ADVICE A COUNSELOR OR PASTOR... COULD GIVE A WOMAN
IN THIS SITUATION. TIM: I TELL PEOPLE NEVER... NEVER TAKE RESPONSIBILITY
FOR SOMETHING YOU DON'T
HAVE TOTAL CONTROL OVER. AND THE ONLY THING
YOU HAVE TOTAL CONTROL OVER
IS HOW YOU CHOOSE TO RESPOND, NOT WHAT GETS THROWN
AT YOU OR HOW OTHERS RESPOND,
ONLY HOW YOU CHOOSE TO RESPOND. CHRIS: ONE OF THE THINGS
I HEAR FROM PASTORS AND
BIBLICAL COUNSELORS... IS THEY TRY TO QUANTIFY OR...
OR CATEGORIZE ABUSE AS
AN ANGER PROBLEM. BUT WHAT I FOUND IN A LOT
OF THE MEN, IN PARTICULAR,
THAT I WORK WITH, ANGER ISN'T THE ROOT.
ANGER IS A TACTIC. AND SO WHAT WE'VE GOT WITH
THE... WITH THE "TRY HARDER"... IS THAT I THEN RETALIATE
WITH FRUSTRATION OR
ANGER, IRRITATION, BECAUSE THAT GETS ME
WHAT I WANT. AND SO I...
I COULDN'T AGREE MORE. THE OTHER THING THAT REALLY
STANDS OUT TO ME... IS HOW WE QUALIFY, AND AGAIN,
CATEGORIZE GOD'S HATRED, AS IF GOD'S HATRED OF DIVORCE
IS LIKE THE... THE THING HE
HATES MORE THAN ANYTHING. BUT GOD SPEAKS THROUGHOUT
THE SCRIPTURES... THINK ABOUT
SEVEN THINGS THE LORD HATES. ALL OF THEM REVOLVING
AROUND PRIDE, RIGHT? THE... THE MALACHI 2 PASSAGE.
THE... THE PASSAGE ITSELF DEALS
WITH A HUSBAND WHO'S UNFAITHFUL. LESLIE: TREACHEROUS. CHRIS: VERY TREACHEROUS. TIM: THAT'S THE WORD
IT USES, ISN'T IT? LESLIE: TREACHEROUS,
AND SO HE'S DEALING WITH
A DESTRUCTIVE HUSBAND THERE. HIS REBUKE IS REALLY TO THE
HUSBAND, NOT AT ALL THE WIFE. THE WIFE'S A VICTIM
IN THAT PASSAGE. TIM: SO LET... LET'S SAY
WE HAVE, IN THIS SITUATION,
YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A... AN INDIVIDUAL, A WOMAN, PER SE,
WHO'S IN THIS RELATIONSHIP AND
SHE'S GOT TO MAKE A DECISION. NOTHING'S CHANGING.
DOES SHE STAY? DOES SHE LEAVE?
HOW WOULD YOU RESPOND TO HER? LESLIE: WELL, IN
MY BOOK I USE TWO PHRASES, AND
I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT. IF YOU'RE GOING TO STAY,
AND SOME WOMEN DO STAY, AND SO OFTEN WE
GET A LITTLE FLACK FROM
THE SECULAR WORLD THAT SAYS, "OF COURSE, EVERY WOMAN NEEDS
TO LEAVE," AND SOMETIMES IT'S
NOT WISE FOR A WOMAN TO LEAVE. SHE'S GOT SMALL CHILDREN.
SHE DOESN'T WANT TO LEAVE
THOSE SMALL CHILDREN... IN VISITATION WITH A HUSBAND
WHO'S ABUSIVE TO THEM, AND SO THAT FEELS VERY
DICEY FOR HER TO DO THAT. IT FEELS SAFER
FOR HER TO STAY AND MAKE SURE
SHE CAN PROTECT HER CHILDREN. BUT IF YOU STAY,
IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT
YOU LEARN HOW TO STAY WELL, BECAUSE GOD WANTS YOU
TO BE A STRONG WOMAN,
A GOD-CENTERED WOMAN, A PROTECTIVE WOMAN
OF YOUR CHILDREN, AND IF YOU CAN'T DO THAT, WELL,
THEN YOU MAY NEED TO LEAVE. BUT THERE'S LOTS OF WOMEN
WHO LEAVE, AND THEY LEAVE
BITTER, ANGRY AND FEARFUL. AND SO GOD...
ALSO, I THINK IF YOU LEAVE,
TO LEARN TO LEAVE WELL. AND SO IT'S THE STAYING
WELL OR LEAVING WELL THAT GIVES
GOD THE GLORY IN ALL OF THAT. IT'S NOT JUST PUTTING UP WITH
SOMEONE AND BEING VERY ANGRY
AND ABUSIVE OR FRUSTRATED AND... OR LEAVING AND BEING ANGRY
AND FRUSTRATED AND BITTER. IT'S LEARNING HOW TO
EITHER STAY OR LEAVE WELL. AND I THINK SO OFTEN...
I DON'T TELL WOMEN THAT
THEY SHOULD GET DIVORCED. I THINK WHAT'S IMPORTANT
FOR US TO UNDERSTAND IS... I DON'T THINK GOD PROHIBITS
THAT IN THESE SITUATIONS. TIM: AS A PASTOR HEARING THAT,
YOU'RE BUYING THAT? CHRIS: YEAH, I'LL... I'LL BUY
INTO IT FOR A COUPLE REASONS. AND THE ONE THING
THAT I APPRECIATE ABOUT
LESLIE IN THIS REGARD... IS VERY CLEAR...
THE CLEAR SENTIMENT OF "WELL".
I LOVE THE WORD "WELL". AND... AND I'M REALLY
GOING TO READ INTO IT
A LITTLE BIT AS A PASTOR. I'M GOING TO USE
THAT WORD "BIBLICAL". WE THROW THAT WORD "BIBLICAL"
OUT THERE A LOT OF TIMES, AND I THINK WHAT WE MEAN
BY THAT IS "LETTER OF THE LAW"
RATHER THAN "SPIRIT OF THE LAW". BUT THE IDEA OF
STAYING WELL AND LEAVING WELL
PUTS THE RESPONSIBILITY... BACK UPON THE INDIVIDUAL IN
THE SITUATION TO GIVE GOD GLORY. AND IS IT GLORIFYING TO GOD
TO REMAIN IN A RELATIONSHIP
THAT IS DESTRUCTIVE, WHERE THE OTHER INDIVIDUAL
IS NOT WILLING TO CHANGE, AND YOU PUT YOURSELF IN
DANGER OR THE THREAT OF FEAR? VERSUS, "HOW DO I... IF...
IF IT'S TIME TO LEAVE, "HOW DO I LEAVE FOR THE GLORY OF
GOD AND HOW CAN MY CHURCH COME
ALONGSIDE ME AND DO THAT?" I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THE
MESSINESS OF CONFLICT, RIGHT? WHAT I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH
IS WHEN WE AS A CHURCH
GLOSS OVER CONFLICT... UNDER THE GUISE OF
BEING BIBLICAL, RATHER THAN
ADDRESSING SIN AND SUFFERING... ACCORDING TO BIBLICAL PRINCIPLES
AND TRYING TO GLORIFY GOD. TIM: SO WHAT YOU'RE
SAYING IS A WOMAN WHO'S
IN A DESPERATE SITUATION, WHO'S DONE EVERYTHING SHE CAN,
SHE HAS SOUGHT HELP, SHE ACTUALLY COULD AT SOME
POINT SAY, "YOU KNOW WHAT?
IT IS TIME TO STEP AWAY," FOR... FOR GODLY REASONS,
FOR GOOD REASONS, FOR HER OWN
MATURITY, FOR HER OWN GROWTH, AS WELL AS PROTECTION,
PROBABLY, FOR HER
CHILDREN, AS WELL. LESLIE: WELL, IF WE THINK OF
THE WORD "LOVE", YOU KNOW, GOD
CALLS US TO LOVE OUR ENEMIES. SO MAYBE A WOMAN FEELS HER
HUSBAND'S HER ENEMY RIGHT NOW, SO HE... SHE DOESN'T
GET A PASS LIKE, I DON'T HAVE TO LOVE HIM
BECAUSE I DON'T FEEL IN
LOVE WITH HIM ANYMORE. I STILL HAVE TO LOVE HIM
BECAUSE HE'S MY ENEMY. AND SO WHEN WE LOOK
AT BIBLICAL LOVE, BIBLICAL LOVE ALWAYS
ACTS IN THE BEST INTERESTS
OF THE OTHER PERSON. THAT'S THE DEFINITION
OF BIBLICAL LOVE, AND SO EVEN IF IT COSTS YOU,
YOU ACT IN THE BEST INTEREST. AND SO WHAT WE REALLY HAVE TO
ASK A WOMAN IN THIS SITUATION, IS IT IN YOUR HUSBAND'S BEST
INTEREST FOR YOU TO STAY... AND PRETEND AND KEEP UP
APPEARANCES AND PROP HIM UP... AND ENABLE HIM TO CONTINUE
TO DECEIVE HIMSELF... AND TO CONTINUE TO SIN
AGAINST YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN? IS THAT IN HIS...?
IT'S NOT IN YOUR BEST INTEREST. BUT EVEN AS IT IS HIS BEST
INTEREST, AND IT'S ABSOLUTELY
NOT IN HIS BEST INTEREST. AND SO WHEN ONCE YOU GET
GROUNDED AND YOU BUILD YOUR
CORE AND YOU'RE GOD-CENTERED, YOU CAN ABSOLUTELY
MOVE OUT IN LOVE AND SAY, "IT'S NOT IN YOUR BEST INTEREST
FOR ME TO LIE TO YOU AND PRETEND
AND ACT AS IF ALL IS WELL... "WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DRIVE OFF
A CLIFF. AND SO I'M GOING TO
SPEAK THE TRUTH TO YOU, "AND THEN YOU DECIDE WHAT YOU
WANT TO DO WITH THAT. BUT I'M
NOT LIVING LIKE THIS ANYMORE." CHRIS: WE'RE DRAWN TO
EXTREMES IN THE CHURCH, AND SO I THINK WHEN WE HEAR
THAT WE IMMEDIATELY THINK, "OH WOW, THESE THREE
PEOPLE THINK THAT, "YOU KNOW,
YOU OPEN THE FLOODGATES
OF DIVORCE. DIVORCE IS..." BUT WE LOVE MARRIAGE.
I MEAN, I WAS... WE'VE
TALKED... WE LOVE MARRIAGE, AND WE LOVE THE PEOPLE
IN THE MARRIAGE. AND SO GOING BACK TO THE
HURDLE ANALOGY I'VE USED WITH
YOU GUYS THE LAST COUPLE DAYS: IN A HURDLE RACE, YOU DON'T
JUMP THE LAST HURDLE, RIGHT? SO AS WE'RE MOVING
THESE PEOPLE, THEY CAN
MOVE TOWARDS RECONCILIATION, LEAVING WELL OR STAYING WELL.
BUT A LOT OF IT DEPENDS UPON... WHETHER OR NOT
THE CONTROLLING ABUSIVE PERSON
IS WILLING TO ACT IN REPENTANCE. LESLIE: YOU CAN...
YOU CAN... IT TAKES TWO TO
MAKE A MARRIAGE WORK, RIGHT? IT TAKES ONE TO BREAK IT.
AND SO... AND SO IF BOTH PEOPLE
ARE WILLING TO DO THE WORK... I MEAN, GOD LOVES
MARRIAGE AND HE LOVES
THE SANCTITY OF MARRIAGE. HE... HE DESIGNED IT.
HE ORDAINED IT. BUT I DON'T THINK HE VALUES THAT
ABOVE THE SAFETY AND THE SANITY
OF THE PEOPLE IN THE MARRIAGE. TIM: AND I THINK THAT'S
IMPORTANT. IT'S THE... IT'S NOT THE INSTITUTION WE'RE
TRYING TO PROTECT THE MOST.
IT'S ABOUT PROTECTING PEOPLE. CHRIS: BUT WE DO BOTH
WHEN WE PROTECT PEOPLE. TIM: EXACTLY. HEY, THIS HAS
BEEN A GREAT DISCUSSION, BUT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO
MOVE TO SOME QUESTIONS, 'CAUSE WE GOT LOTS OF QUESTIONS
THAT OUR AUDIENCE IS SUBMITTING. ONE OF THE QUESTIONS, IT WAS ONE
OF THE FIRST ONES THAT CAME IN,
WAS A HUSBAND FROM ARIZONA. AND I WILL NOT IDENTIFY
NAMES BECAUSE THIS IS A REALLY
DELICATE TOPIC TO TALK ABOUT, SO I'LL JUST PROBABLY INDICATE
WHETHER IT'S A MAN OR WOMAN. HE SAYS THIS, "THIS ISN'T
SIMPLY A PROBLEM WITH MEN." CHRIS: RIGHT. TIM: "MY WIFE IS SHOWING
THESE ISSUES TOWARDS ME. "WHAT CAN A HUSBAND DO WHEN
HIS WIFE IS THE DESTRUCTIVE
ONE IN THE RELATIONSHIP?" CHRIS: I WOULDN'T DISAGREE THAT
IT'S SOLELY A MEN'S PROBLEM. I THINK WE GRAVITATE
TOWARDS THAT BECAUSE IN
THE POWER AND CONTROL DYNAMIC, MEN SEEM TO HAVE THAT
POWER ISSUE AND CONTROL. SO I DO UNDERSTAND THAT
IT DOES HAPPEN BOTH WAYS. BUT I THINK IT...
IT GOES BACK TO LESLIE'S
COMMENT ABOUT CORE STRENGTH, AND IT STARTS WITH EVALUATING
YOURSELF. YOU CAN'T CHANGE
YOUR SPOUSE, RIGHT? BUT YOU CAN EVALUATE
WHERE YOU'RE AT. LESLIE: I WOULD SAY TO THIS MAN
MUCH OF THE SAME TEACHING... THAT I WOULD GIVE TO A WOMAN
THAT SHE NEEDS TO DO. WHEN YOU'RE A REPEATED VICTIM,
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU
HAVE TO ASK YOURSELF IS, "WHAT'S MY PART?"
LIKE, "WHY HAVE I... "HOW HAVE I ENABLED THIS AND
WHY HAVE I ALLOWED THIS?" RIGHT? AND SO THAT'S WHERE
HE CAN BEGIN TO START. HAS HE
BEEN... HAS HE NOT SPOKEN UP? HAS HE NOT SAID,
"I'M NOT... I DON'T LIKE THE
WAY THAT YOU'RE TALKING TO ME." HAS HE JUST BEEN KIND OF
A PASSIVE RECIPIENT OF THAT
KIND OF VERBAL ABUSE... AND HE DIDN'T REALLY DISCUSS
EXACTLY WHAT WAS HAPPENING? BUT SO OFTEN, YOU KNOW, WE'RE
NOT COURAGEOUS ENOUGH TO SAY, "I... I'M NOT ALLOWING MYSELF
TO BE TALKED TO THIS WAY. "I'M ENDING THE CONVERSATION
UNTIL YOU CAN JUST SPEAK
TO ME DIFFERENTLY." I REMEMBER
TELLING THAT TO MY TEENAGERS: "I'M NOT GOING TO TALK TO YOU
THIS WAY. WHEN YOU TALK TO ME
THIS WAY, CONVERSATION'S OVER." AND SO NOT... TO NOT BE
ABLE TO SET BOUNDARIES AND
CONSEQUENCES EARLY ON... FEEDS THAT KIND OF
RELATIONSHIP TO GROW. TIM: SO YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
HIM DEVELOPING SOME CORE
STRENGTH, AS WELL. LESLIE: HIM DEVELOPING
CORE STRENGTH AND SETTING
BOUNDARIES AND CONSEQUENCES. "WHEN YOU TALK TO ME THIS WAY,
CONVERSATION'S OVER. I'M NOT
LISTENING ANYMORE." AND TO DEVELOP
A SAFETY PLAN TO GET
OUT OF THAT SITUATION. TIM: HERE'S ANOTHER ONE.
THIS IS FROM A WOMAN. SHE SAYS, "IF A SPOUSE IS
EMOTIONALLY DESTRUCTIVE... "IN A VERBALLY AND
EMOTIONALLY ABUSIVE MANNER
AND THAT SPOUSE SEEKS HELP, "HOW CAN BOTH SPOUSES
BE CERTAIN THAT THE ABUSE... "HOW CAN THE...
THE OTHER SPOUSE BE CERTAIN THAT
THE ABUSIVE SPOUSE IS SINCERE, "AND ALSO IS IMPROVING
IN A SINCERE FASHION? "WHAT ARE THE CHANCES OF GOING
BACK TO THE OLD BEHAVIORS... "ONCE THIS HELP THAT THEY'VE
SOUGHT FOR IS NO LONGER THERE?" CHRIS: WELL, THE CHANCE OF
GOING BACK TO THE BEHAVIORS... IS THE SAME AS IT IS
WITH ANY OF US WHEN WE MAKE
STATEMENTS OF REPENTANCE, RIGHT? I MEAN, WE... WE HAVE TRIED
AND WE HAVE FAILED, SO I THINK YOU...
YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND
THAT IN THIS PROCESS, THERE'S THE OPPORTUNITY
TO FALL BACK INTO THOSE
PATTERNS OF BEHAVIORS, AND THOSE CONSEQUENCES NEED
TO BE ENACTED AT THAT POINT
AND... AND SOME RIGIDITY THERE. BUT ONE OF THE THINGS I GO BACK
TO IS LUKE 6 AND THE "ROOT AND
FRUIT" PRINCIPLES... THAT GOOD... GOOD TREES
BEAR GOOD FRUIT. AND I THINK THAT'S
ESSENTIAL IN HELP. IF...
IF YOU ONLY MODIFY BEHAVIOR, IF YOU ONLY HELP A HUSBAND
OR A WIFE WHO'S HARSH AND
UNLOVING AND DISMISSIVE... HAVE DIFFERENT BEHAVIORS,
THEN THEY'RE JUST GOING
TO MANIFEST THEM SOMEWHERE ELSE. SO THAT HEART OF PRIDE
HAS TO BE ADDRESSED. LESLIE: I WAS JUST
THINKING THE SAME THING.
I THINK THE HUMILITY PIECE... YOU'LL BEGIN TO SEE
A DIFFERENCE WITH THE HUMILITY, AND SO WHAT HAPPENS WHEN... WHEN
THEY BEGIN TO DEVELOP HUMILITY, THREE THINGS HAPPEN
IN THEIR OUTER WORLD. ONE IS THEY'RE MORE
AWARE OF THEMSELVES WHEN
THEY BECOME HARSH OR UNKIND, BECAUSE THE PRIDE ISN'T BLINDING
THEM AS MUCH ANYMORE. SECOND IS THEY'RE
OPEN TO FEEDBACK FROM
THEIR SPOUSE WHEN SHE SAYS, "OOH, THIS BEHAVIOR REMINDS ME
OF OLD STUFF. STOP IT," AND HE'S WILLING
TO RECEIVE THAT NOW. AND THE THIRD THING IS HE'S
WILLING TO BE ACCOUNTABLE. SO THAT HUMILITY
ENABLES THOSE THREE THINGS
TO BE CHECKS AND BALANCES... TO THE PROBLEM OF RECIDIVISM.
AND TO BE ABLE TO PREVENT
THAT FROM HAPPENING, OR IF IT STARTS TO HAPPEN
HE'S OPEN TO HEARING THAT, AND BEING WILLING TO
CORRECT THAT BEHAVIOR. CHRIS: WHEN WE TALK ABOUT
RECIDIVISM WITH OUR GROUPS, ONE OF THE THINGS
WE'LL BRING OUT IS, "WHEN YOU'RE DEFENSIVE,
WHAT DO YOU TEND TO DEFEND?" AND UNIV... UNANIMOUSLY,
IT'S MY PRIDE. MY PRIDE. AND SO THAT
DEFENSIVENESS IS A CHECK FOR
THE PEOPLE THAT WE WORK WITH. AND SO THAT... THAT COULD
POSSIBLY BE AN INDICATOR FOR
THIS INDIVIDUAL, AS WELL, WITH THAT DEFENSIVE NATURE.
SO I... I JUST COULDN'T AGREE
MORE ABOUT THE FEEDBACK ISSUE. TIM: THIS INDIVIDUAL
SAYS THIS: "MY PASTOR
HAS SAID FROM THE PULPIT, 'SUBMISSION TO THOSE
WITH EVIL INTENT HAS A WAY OF
ACTIVATING THEIR CONSCIENCE, 'AND LOVE TO YOUR ENEMY
IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY
TO CHANGE THEIR BEHAVIOR.' "HE TOTALLY BELIEVES
THAT WE ARE RESPONSIBLE
FOR THE CHOICES OF THE HUSBAND, "AND... AND SAYS THIS
IN MANY SIMILAR SERMONS." ANY ADVICE OF HOW TO HELP THOSE
IN OUR CHURCH COMMUNITY... WHO SIT UNDER THAT
KIND OF TEACHING? CHRIS: I THINK THOSE
ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. I THINK TWO DIFFERENT THINGS
ARE BEING SAID THERE. ONE IS SUBMISSION.
THE OTHER IS ENEMY LOVE. TIM: RIGHT. CHRIS: AND I THINK THOSE THINGS
LOOK A LITTLE DIFFERENT. IS THERE A WAY TO LOVE
YOUR ENEMY WITH RESPECT? AND THE ANSWER'S YES. I THINK
MATTHEW 5 IS BRILLIANT. JESUS IS BRILLIANT IN DESCRIBING
HOW TO RESPOND TO OPPRESSIVE
REGI... REGIMES, RIGHT? WITH THE TURN THE OTHER
CHEEK, WALK THE EXTRA MILE, LEAVE THE COURTROOM NAKED
TYPE OF CONVERSATIONS. SO I THINK THERE MIGHT BE...
WE MIGHT BE MIXING SOME
CATEGORIES HERE... WHEN WE TALK ABOUT
ENEMY LOVE AND SUBMISSION. LESLIE: I... I THINK THAT
HE'S... HE'S IDEALIZING THAT, "IF I SUBMIT, IT WILL
PRICK SOMEONE'S CONSCIENCE." BUT WHAT IT OFTEN DOES
IS IT CONTINUES TO BLIND
SOMEONE'S CONSCIENCE... IN THAT THEY HAVE NO
AWARENESS BECAUSE THEY THINK
THAT THEY'RE ENTITLED... TO YOUR BEHAVIOR
AND ENTITLED TO...
IF YOU... IF YOU... TO SUBMIT. SO SUBMISSION ONLY
FEEDS THE MONSTER. IT DOESN'T HELP THE MONSTER
TAKE A GLANCE AND LOOK AT HIS
OWN SELF TO BEGIN TO REPENT. CHRIS: THE IDEA THAT SUBMISSION
LEADS TO SAFETY IS... IS KIND OF A FALSE HOPE
IN THE SAME WAY THAT JESUS
LOOKS AT PILATE AND... AND SAYS, "I AM A KING, BUT MY
KINGDOM'S NOT OF THIS WORLD." BASICALLY, "YOU'RE...
YOU'RE THE RULER OF THIS
WORLD. DO WHAT YOU WILL." AND WE SEE WHAT HAPPENED
TO PILATE. HE CRUCIFIED
JESUS, WASHED HIS HANDS. LESLIE: WELL, AND...
AND A REAL POTENT EXAMPLE
FROM THE SCRIPTURES IS WHEN... WHEN GOD, THE HOLY SPIRIT
WOKE UP JOSEPH IN A DREAM, AND SAID TO JESUS...
OR TO JOSEPH, "FLEE,
BECAUSE JESUS IS IN DANGER." HE DIDN'T SAY,
"JUST SUBMIT AND IT WILL
PRICK HEROD'S CONSCIENCE." CHRIS: YEAH. HEROD'LL GET IT. LESLIE: RIGHT.
HEROD'LL GET IT. RIGHT. TIM: NO, IT DOESN'T
WORK THAT WAY, DOES IT?
HERE'S ONE. LET ME DO THE... "WHEN YOU'RE
BEATEN DOWN EMOTIONALLY
BY SOMEONE, YOUR SPOUSE, "AND TOLD BY THE CHURCH TO
JUST BE MORE SUBMISSIVE, "YOU FIND YOURSELF FINANCIALLY
DEPENDENT, ISOLATED, AND THE SPOUSE WHO WON'T
AGREE TO ANY COUNSELING
OR ADDRESS ANYTHING. "WHERE DOES A WOMAN
START TO REGAIN HER SENSE
OF HERSELF AND MOVE FORWARD?" LESLIE:
I WOULD SAY TWO THINGS. ONE IS
SHE HAS TO FIND SOME SUPPORT. SHE CAN'T...
SHE CAN'T ALLOW HERSELF
TO BE ISOLATED ANYMORE. SO THAT'S TAKING CONTROL BACK
OF YOUR FREEDOM TO HAVE FRIENDS, TO HAVE OTHER WOMEN
IN YOUR LIFE TO SPEAK INTO
YOUR LIFE IN A HEALTHY WAY. SO ONE, YOU HAVE
TO GET SUPPORT. AND SECOND OF ALL,
YOU NEED TO BEGIN TO BUILD
THOSE FOUR CORE STRENGTHS. AND LET ME JUST ARTICULATE
THEM REAL QUICKLY. THERE'S
C-O-R-E. THERE'S AN ACRONYM. AND 'C' IS, "I AM
COMMITTED TO BEING HONEST BOTH
INTERNALLY AND EXTERNALLY. "I REFUSE TO PRETEND ANYMORE."
SO ONCE YOU DEVELOP
THAT CORE STRENGTH: "I'M NOT GOING TO LIE
FOR MY HUSBAND. I'M NOT GOING
TO LIE ABOUT MY HUSBAND. "I'M NOT GOING TO LIE TO
MYSELF. I'M GOING TO BE HONEST
WITH WHAT'S REALLY GOING ON." TWO: "I'M GOING TO BE
OPEN TO THE HOLY SPIRIT. "I'M GOING TO BE ALLOWING
HIM TO TEACH ME AND INSTRUCT ME. "EVEN IF IT SOUNDS DIFFERENT
THAN WHAT MY PASTOR SAID, "I AM GOING TO START
REALLY LISTENING TO
WHAT GOD SAYS ABOUT... "WHAT HE WANTS ME TO DO IN THIS
SITUATION, AND WISE OTHERS." THREE: "I'M GOING TO BE
RESPONSIBLE FOR MYSELF. "AND SO WHEN MY REACTIONS
START GETTING ABUSIVE,
I'M GOING TO OWN THOSE. "I'M GOING TO APOLOGIZE.
I'M GOING TO MAKE AMENDS, "AND DO WHAT I NEED TO DO
TO BE THE PERSON I WANT TO BE. "AND I'M ALSO
GOING TO BE RESPECTFUL
TO MY ABUSIVE SPOUSE... "WITHOUT ALLOWING HIM
TO CONTINUE TO DISRESPECT
OR DEGRADE ME." AND THEN THE FOURTH
THING IS, "I'M GOING TO BE
EMPATHIC AND COMPASSIONATE," WHICH IS THE WORST THING
WE WANT TO DO TOWARD AN ABUSER, BUT THAT'S THE,
"LOVE MY ENEMIES," OKAY? TIM: AND THAT'S THE REALLY
COURAGEOUS PART. LESLIE: "I'M GOING TO BE
EMPATHIC AND COMPASSIONATE
TOWARD MY ABUSER... "WITHOUT ENABLING THEM
TO CONTINUE TO ABUSE ME." AND SO THAT DANCE OF BEING
COMPASSIONATE AND SAYING,
"I FEEL FOR YOU. "I'M SORRY YOU HAVE TO
GO TO JAIL, BUT YOU VIOLATED
THE 'PFA' ORDER OR THE... "YOU KNOW, AND YOU...
AND THAT'S THE CONSEQUENCE." AND SO ALLOWING THE
CONSEQUENCES TO TAKE PLACE... AND BEING COMPASSIONATE
FOR THE PERSON SUFFERING. TIM: AND ALLOWING
THE CONSEQUENCE IS LOVING. AND THAT'S WHAT MOST PEOPLE
DON'T HEAR, THAT LOVING IS THAT
COURAGEOUS, STRONG MOVEMENT... THAT SAYS; "I LOVE YOU
TOO MUCH TO LET THIS CONTINUE." LESLIE: OR, "I LOVE YOU TOO
MUCH TO ALLOW YOU TO CONTINUE
TO DECEIVE YOURSELF... "THAT WHAT YOU'RE
DOING ISN'T HARMFUL AND
DESTRUCTIVE, NOT TO ME, "NOT TO OUR CHILDREN,
NOT TO OUR MARRIAGE,
AND MOST OF ALL TO YOU." TIM: WELL, WE HAVE GOT,
YOU KNOW, AGAIN, A LOT
OF QUESTIONS HERE. ONE OF THE ONES
THAT CAME IN WAS THIS. THIS WOMAN ASKS: "MY HUSBAND HAS
A SEVERE PROBLEM WITH LYING... "TO THE POINT THAT
WE HAD TO FORECLOSE ON OUR HOME
OF 24 YEARS BECAUSE OF HIS LIES. "HE SAYS THAT HE'S REPENTED, BUT
I HAVE STILL CAUGHT HIM IN LIES, "AND NOW WITH PORNOGRAPHY.
I LOVE HIM. WE'VE BEEN
MARRIED FOR 38 YEARS. "WE HAVE A BEAUTIFUL FAMILY.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO." CHRIS: SOUNDS LIKE REPENTANCE IS
STILL IN PROGRESS, RIGHT? IF... IF I SAY I'VE REPENTED AND
YET I DO THE SAME THING, THEN I... I HAVEN'T
REPENTED YET. LESLIE: WELL, I THINK
THIS IS WHERE THE HUMILITY
IS EVIDENT OR NOT EVIDENT. YOU KNOW, WHEN WE MESS UP,
A PERSON WHO'S DECEPTIVE ISN'T
GOING TO CHANGE OVERNIGHT, RIGHT? THEY'RE JUST NOT
GOING TO CHANGE OVERNIGHT. A PERSON WHO... A YELLER IS NOT
GOING TO STOP OVERNIGHT. BUT THIS IS WHERE
THE HUMILITY COMES IN.
"I'M AWARE I HAVE A PROBLEM. "I INVITE YOU TO SPEAK INTO
MY LIFE ABOUT THIS PROBLEM. "AND WHEN I MESS UP,
AND I'M AWARE THAT I... I AM
AWARE I JUST LIED TO MY WIFE, "I DIDN'T WANT TO,
BUT HERE IT CAME OUT
'CAUSE IT'S IN THE HABIT, "I'M GOING TO OWN THAT. I'M
GOING TO CONFESS THAT TO YOU. "I'M GOING TO SAY, 'YOU KNOW,
HONEY, I... I DIDN'T MEAN TO, "BUT I JUST TOLD ANOTHER LIE
BECAUSE I'M SO IN A HABIT
PATTERN OF DECEIT.'" THAT IS SO RESTORATIVE
TO A MARRIAGE, WHEN SOMEONE
BEGINS TO OWN THEIR OWN STUFF, THAT THAT'S WHEN YOU BEGIN
TO TRUST THAT REPENTANCE
HAS REALLY TAKEN PLACE. JOHN THE BAPTIST
SAYS IT REALLY WELL WHEN
HE SAYS TO THE PHARISEES, WHO ARE GREAT
WITH WORDS, HE SAYS, "SHOW ME BY THE WAY THAT YOU
LIVE THAT YOU'VE TURNED FROM
YOUR SIN AND REPENTED TO GOD." TIM: COLOSSIANS 3:17: "SHOW AND
TELL BY WORD AND DEED." LESLIE: THAT'S RIGHT,
AND SO.... AND PAUL SAYS,
"DON'T TRUST DECEPTIVE WORDS." AND SO WE DON'T
EXACTLY KNOW WHEN SOMEONE
HAS ESPECIALLY BEEN A LIAR. WHATEVER... THEIR WORDS
MEAN NOTHING ANYMORE. TIM: SO ONE OF THE OTHER
QUESTIONS HERE WAS, "HOW DO I TEST TO SEE
IF REPENTANCE IS REAL?"
HOW DO THEY KNOW? LESLIE: WELL, I... I THINK
JOSEPH IS A REALLY GOOD EXAMPLE
IN GENESIS OF A TEST. AND YOU KNOW,
WHEN HE FIRST MET HIS BROTHERS
WHEN THEY CAME BACK FROM EGYPT, AND HE WAS
THE PHARAOH'S RIGHT-HAND MAN,
HE LOVED HIS ENEMIES. THEY WERE HIS ENEMIES,
SO TO SPEAK. THEY HURT HIM.
THEY HARMED HIM. THEY SOLD HIM INTO
SLAVERY. HE HAD... BEARED
NO ILL WILL TOWARD THEM. HE OFFERED THEM FOOD.
HE TOOK CARE OF THEIR NEEDS, BUT HE WASN'T GOING TO
RECONCILE WITH THEM. HE DIDN'T EXPOSE HIMSELF
TO THEM OR DROP HIS GUARD, SO
TO SPEAK, UNTIL HE TESTED THEM. SO HE PUT THE CUP IN
THEIR SACK. HE PUT THE
MONEY BAG IN THEIR SACK. HE KIND OF CONFISCATED
BENJAMIN TO SEE IF THEY WOULD
THROW HIM UNDER THE BUS... AND LEAVE HIM, YOU KNOW,
LIKE THEY DID HIM. AND WHEN HE SAW THAT HIS
BROTHERS' HEARTS WERE DIFFERENT, THAT'S WHEN HE SAID,
"MY BROTHERS, THIS IS JOSEPH." HE WAS OFFERING HIMSELF
FOR RELATIONSHIP AGAIN. AND SO I THINK WOMEN OR
MEN IN THESE DESTRUCTIVE
RELATIONSHIPS... CAN BEGIN TO DO SOME TESTS.
FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU'RE
SEPARATED FROM A SPOUSE... AND HE'S BEEN ABUSIVE WHENEVER
YOU TRY TO ASSERT YOURSELF, WHEN YOU SAY, YOU KNOW,
"NO, I DON'T WANT TO TALK
ON THE PHONE RIGHT NOW. "NO, I DON'T WANT TO GET
TOGETHER RIGHT NOW. "NO, YOU CAN'T SEE
THE CHILDREN RIGHT NOW."
HOW DOES HE HANDLE THAT "NO"? IS HE RESPECTFUL?
DOES HE UNDERSTAND YOU
HAVE A RIGHT TO SAY NO? DOES HE, YOU KNOW, ALLOW YOU
TO DO THAT? OR IS HE ABUSIVE
OVER THE PHONE EVEN WHEN... HE'S SEPARATED BUT
HE WANTS TO MOVE BACK HOME? CHRIS: SPIRITUAL FORMATION
MOVES US FROM WHO WE WERE
TO WHO WE'RE INTENDED TO BE. AND SO I THINK OF IN EPHESIANS,
I THINK IT'S EPHESIANS 4, RIGHT,
GOING BACK TO THE LIAR. WHEN'S A LIAR NOT A LIAR?
WELL, IT'S WHEN HE STARTS
TELLING THE TRUTH, WHEN PATTERNS OF TRUTH
BECOME HIS M.O. WHEN IS A THIEF
NOT A THIEF? WELL, WHEN...
NOT WHEN HE STOPS STEALING, BUT WHEN HE WORKS HARD
AND GIVES TO THE POOR, WHEN
HE BECOMES A GENEROUS PERSON. LESLIE:
INSTEAD OF A SELFISH PERSON. CHRIS: ABSOLUTELY. LESLIE: THERE'S A CHANGE
OF HEART THERE. TIM: BUT WHEN YOU'RE TALKING
ABOUT NOT GIVING IN, YOU KNOW, 'CAUSE THERE... THERE'S A FEAR
OF DISAPPOINTING... TO SAY THERE'S LEGITIMATE
REASONS TO DISAPPOINT SOMEBODY. YOU'RE NOT CALLED TO
NEVER DISAPPOINT. LESLIE: JESUS DISAPPOINTED
PEOPLE, FOR GOODNESS' SAKE, TIM: EXACTLY. LESLIE:
SO WE DEFINITELY WILL DO THAT. TIM: SO TO BE ABLE TO FEEL
THE FREEDOM, FOR A WOMAN TO
FEEL IN THIS SITUATION... TO FEEL THE FREEDOM,
LIKE, IT'S OKAY. HE'S GOING TO BE DISAPPOINTED
WHEN HE HANGS UP THAT PHONE, BUT DOES HE TURN OVER AND
RECEIVE THAT AND DEAL WITH THAT, OR DOES HE, AGAIN,
BECOME ABUSIVE BACK? LESLIE: AND THAT'S
BEING COMPASSIONATE, IN THAT
FOUR CORE STRENGTHS, OF SAYING, "NO, YOU CAN'T COME
OVER. I UNDERSTAND
YOU REALLY WANT TO. "I UNDERSTAND THIS IS YOUR ONLY
DAY OFF. I FEEL FOR YOU, BUT
IT'S NOT GOING TO WORK FOR ME." THAT'S COMPASSIONATE
WITHOUT ENABLING. AND THEN HOW HE HANDLES
THAT IS THE TEST. CAN HE HANDLE THAT?
BECAUSE THAT'S GOING TO
HAPPEN IN EVERY MARRIAGE. YOU CAN'T ALWAYS DO WHAT
SOMEONE WANTS YOU TO DO. TIM: AND ONE INDIVIDUAL
SAID HERE, AND... AND HE...
HE ASKED THIS, HE SAYS, "WHAT IF MAYBE THIS PERSON
YOU LOOK AT AND SAY, 'WELL, GOD HAS BROUGHT THIS
PERSON INTO YOUR LIFE, 'THIS ABUSIVE PERSON,
AND THE WAY THEY'RE RESPONDING, 'AND MAYBE JUST GOD WANTS ME
TO LEARN SOMETHING FROM THEM
IN THIS SITUATION.'" CHRIS: YOU KNOW, WE HEAR THAT A
LOT IN LINE WITH WHAT WE MIGHT
CALL THEOLOGY OF SUFFERING, AND... AND I'M NOT
OPPOSED TO THE THEOLOGY. I THINK THERE'S
GREAT POINTS IN PERSEVERANCE,
ENDURANCE AND COMING OUT BETTER. BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT...
THAT STRIKES ME IS WE RARELY... ADDRESS THIS SITUATION LIKE WE
DO OTHER AREAS OF SUFFERING. TIM: OKAY, WHAT DO
YOU MEAN BY THAT? CHRIS: FOR INSTANCE, IF... IF
SOMEONE IN MY CONGREGATION IS
SUFFERING WITH CANCER, OKAY, WILL WE PRAY FOR
THEIR HEALING? ABSOLUTELY. WILL WE TALK WITH THEM AND
COUNSEL WITH THEM ABOUT HOW... THEY CAN STILL CONFORM TO THE
IMAGE OF CHRIST, ROMANS 8:28 AND
29, THROUGH GOOD, BAD, AND UGLY? CAN... CAN THIS BE USED
FOR THE GLORY OF GOD? BUT WE ALSO ENCOURAGE THEM
TO GO SEE AN ONCOLOGIST. WE WANT THE CANCER TO BE
ERADICATED, SO WE TAKE
A BOTH-AND APPROACH. IN... IN RELATIONSHIPS THOUGH,
ESPECIALLY WITH MARRIAGE, BECAUSE MARRIAGE CAN
BECOME SO SACRED SOMETIMES, AND IT IS SACRED, BUT I THINK
WHAT HAPPENS IN MARRIAGE
SOMETIMES IS WE ONLY OFFER HALF, AND WE DON'T PRACTICE THE
SPIRITUAL ONCOLOGY, AS IT WERE. WE GO, "SUFFER WELL.
SUFFER WELL. CONFORM TO CHRIST," WITHOUT SEEING WHAT THAT MEANS
FOR THE RELATIONSHIP. LESLIE: WELL, NOT ONLY
THAT, BUT WE'RE NOT TAKING THE
WHOLE SCRIPTURES INTO ACCOUNT, BECAUSE PART OF A PERSON'S
JOURNEY AND SPIRITUAL FORMATION
IS TO LEARN FORBEARANCE, THAT, YOU KNOW, "PUT UP
WITH ONE ANOTHER," PAUL SAYS. AND SO YES, WHEN YOU'RE
WITH A CONTENTIOUS PERSON... YOU MAY NEED TO LEARN
HOW TO DO SOME OF THAT. BUT THE SCRIPTURE ALSO SAYS,
"SPEAK THE TRUTH IN LOVE.
ADMONISH THE UNRULY. "RIGHTLY DIVIDE
THE WORD OF TRUTH." AND YOU MAY NEED TO
LEARN SOME OF THAT IN
A CONTENTIOUS MARRIAGE. AND SO AS YOU LEARN SOME
OF THAT, YOU MAY NEED TO LEARN
HOW TO OVERCOME EVIL WITH GOOD. AND ALL... AND THAT'S
PART OF WHAT YOU LEARN, TOO. SO THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT
YOU JUST SILENTLY SUFFER, BUT YOU ALSO MIGHT HAVE TO LEARN
TO SPEAK UP AND CONFRONT EVIL
AND DEAL WITH INJUSTICE, AND THAT'S HARD
FOR PEOPLE, TOO. CHRIS: ABSOLUTELY. TIM: AND WE'RE ALL CALLED
TO DO THAT, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN. SO NOBODY GETS A PASS ON
THIS WHEN IT COMES TO SAYING, "IF I PLEDGED MYSELF
TO LOVE THE OTHER PERSON..." I THINK WE JUST HAVE
THIS DISTORTED VIEW OF WHAT
DOES LOVE REALLY LOOK LIKE... THAT THE SCRIPTURES REALLY
DO INFORM US ABOUT. WELL, SOME OTHER
QUESTIONS HERE. "SO IF DIVORCE ISN'T PROHIBITED
IN THIS TYPE OF A MARRIAGE WHERE
THE HUSBAND DOESN'T CHANGE, "IS REMARRIAGE BIBLICAL
OR SHOULD THE WIFE
STAY UNMARRIED... "IN THE CASE OF THAT
TYPE OF SITUATION?" CHRIS: WOW, THAT'S A WONDERFUL
QUESTION. I'LL TAKE A SIP. LESLIE: I WAS JUST GOING
TO SAY, "I'M LETTING THE
PASTOR ANSWER THAT ONE." CHRIS: YOU KNOW, I THINK... TIM: 'CAUSE THAT IS
A STICKY-WICKET. CHRIS: THERE IS.
AND I... I THINK ONE OF THE... ONE OF THE BEAUTIFUL THINGS
ABOUT THE BODY OF CHRIST... IS THAT THERE ARE
DISTINCTIONS WITHIN OUR
THEOLOGICAL UNDERSTANDINGS. AND WHEN I GET QUESTIONS LIKE
THIS FROM BIBLICAL COUNSELORS IN
PARTICULAR, MY FIRST ADVICE IS: I REALLY THINK YOU NEED TO TALK
TO YOUR ELDERS AND UNDERSTAND
YOUR CHURCH'S POSITION. IF YOU DISAGREE WITH
YOUR CHURCH'S POSITION, THEN ARTICULATE WHY AND TALK
TO THEM ABOUT IT, AND SEE IF
THEY'RE WILLING TO RECONSIDER. FOR ME, I'M...
I'M A TWO-EXCEPTION-RULE
GUY WITH CAVEATS, AND SO I WOULD BE OKAY,
IF ALL RESOURCES HAVE BEEN
EXHAUSTED, RIGHT, TO FREE AN INDIVIDUAL
FOR REMARRIAGE. BUT NOT ALL CHURCHES ARE THERE
YET OR ARE GOING TO GET THERE, BECAUSE THEY HAVE DIFFERENT
THEOLOGICAL UNDERSTANDINGS. SO I WOULD WANT TO DISCUSS THIS
WITH THE ELDERS OF THE CHURCH, AND... AND REALLY ALLOW THE
LOCAL CHURCH TO SPEAK INTO THAT, AND THEN WISELY DECIDE
HOW YOU'RE GOING TO RESPOND. LESLIE: I THINK... I THINK THE
THING THAT YOU SAY... SO MUCH
THAT I LIKE, CHRIS, IS THAT, YOU KNOW, THE BIBLE CAN BE
INTERPRETED AND MISINTERPRETED
AND REINTERPRETED, AND WE DON'T MEAN
TO DISMISS, LIKE, "OKAY, SO NOBODY HAS ANYTHING
TO SAY ABOUT THE BIBLE." BUT I DO THINK THAT
PEOPLE HAVE VARIOUS OPINIONS. AND WHEN WE ALLOW OURSELVES
TO BE TOLD THAT THIS IS
THE ONLY RIGHT WAY, WHEN WE ALLOW ONE PERSON OR
ONE DENOMINATION TO HAVE SOLE
INFLUENCE IN... OVER OUR LIFE, THAT CAN BE A VERY
DANGEROUS THING. WE...
WE HEAR OF CULTS THAT DO THAT. JIM JONES CONVINCED
900 PEOPLE TO COMMIT
SUICIDE BY TAKING... DRINKING CYANIDE-LACED
KOOL-AID, SO I THINK
WE NEED TO BE CAREFUL... THAT WE DON'T PUT OUR WHOLE
FUTURE AND WELL-BEING IN ONE
PERSON'S IDEA ABOUT SOMETHING, THAT WE TAKE THAT IDEA, PRAY
ABOUT IT, READ THE SCRIPTURES, CONSULT WITH OTHERS
AND THEN ASK GOD TO SHOW US. TIM: AND SCRIPTURE ISN'T OF
PRIVATE INTERPRETATION. AND I THINK AS WE HOLD THAT
INTERPRETA... TO HOLD IT HUMBLY, BECAUSE WE DON'T
HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS. BUT WE DO HAVE THE HEART OF
THE FATHER THAT'S REVEALED
IN THE SCRIPTURES, AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE
WE NEED TO COME BACK TO. WHAT'S GOD'S HEART
FOR INDIVIDUALS TRAPPED
IN THESE KIND OF SITUATIONS? WHAT'S HIS HEART FOR BOTH THE
ABUSER AS WELL AS THE ABUSED? AND... AND WHAT DOES
HE WANT TO SEE HAPPEN? LESLIE: AND I THINK THAT'S
A GREAT QUESTION BECAUSE
WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE... GOD'S HEART FOR THE OPPRESSED,
THEN YOU SEE THE BIGGER PICTURE. IT'S... YOU CAN'T
JUST TAKE ONE VERSE,
THAT GOD HATES DIVORCE, SO THEREFORE THE OPPRESSOR
GETS TO WIN. THAT'S NOT
GOD'S HEART AT ALL. TIM: NO. NO, IT ISN'T.
WELL, GUYS, WE'VE GOT
A TON OF QUESTIONS, SO WE'RE GOING TO NEED TO
ANSWER SOME OF THESE OFFLINE... BECAUSE WE JUST DON'T HAVE
TIME TO DO ALL THAT RIGHT NOW. BUT THANK YOU SO MUCH
FOR YOUR... YOUR PASSION
NOT ONLY FOR GOD'S TRUTH, BUT ALSO FOR PEOPLE
THAT ARE STRUGGLING. WE REALLY
APPRECIATE YOU BEING HERE. CHRIS: THANK YOU GUYS FOR
DOING THIS. IT'S MUCH NEEDED. LESLIE: OH, IT REALLY
IS NEEDED. THANK YOU. TIM: AND AGAIN,
THANKS FOR SHOWING UP TODAY. WE REALLY WOULD LIKE YOU TO
BE ABLE TO BENEFIT FROM THIS. WE HOPE IT HAS BEEN
A BENEFIT. BUT WE'D LIKE
YOU TO GO TO OUR WEBSITE. WE'D LIKE YOU TO TAKE
A LOOK AT RBC.ORG/TOPICS/ABUSE. THAT'S A SITE THERE WHERE YOU
WILL GO, YOU WILL SEE A LITTLE
ICON ABOUT THIS WEBINAR, <i>THE EMOTIONALLY DESTRUCTIVE
MARRIAGE</i> WEBINAR. IF YOU CLICK ON THAT ICON,
WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO GET IS... YOU'RE GOING TO GET A LINK
TO LESLIE'S WEBSITE. YOU'RE GOING TO GET
A LINK TO HER... THE FIRST
TWO CHAPTERS OF HER BOOK, AS WELL AS SOME<i> DISCOVERY SERIES</i>
BOOKLETS THAT WE HAVE FOR YOU. AND AGAIN, HEY,
THANKS FOR JOINING US TODAY.
