When To Walk Away — Gary Thomas | Undone Redone Webcast

hey guys Trey here in the message studio can't wait to share this conversation with our good friend Gary Thomas about his new book when to walk away finding freedom from toxic people welcome [Music] hey guys welcome to episode 204 of en den Riga and podcast can't wait to share this conversation with our good friend Gary Thomas so glad you're here whether you're watching on YouTube or if you are listening on your favorite podcast player we're just glad that you found us we hope that you'll enjoy today's episode episode 204 but hopefully you'll take at least a little bit of time find two other episodes that catch your interest maybe it's a title maybe it's an author that you read before maybe it's a subject that you're interested in but to find two others take the time listen to those and by the time you've consumed three episodes we hope did you like the decision to be a regular subscriber to the show and also one who's sharing our content with some of your family and friends all of us know people who are going through difficult times difficult seasons of life and that's what we try to do we try to provide a voice of hope that people can really cling to when they're going through those difficult times because let's be honest when we're in those seasons of life the lies that we believe the lies that evil might be sending to us become very very loud and they no longer seem like their lives it becomes almost as if it's true because the circumstance seems to be in lockstep maybe with the lies that we're being told but we want to offer perspective and through our own story and through the many many guests and therapists and authors that we've had on the show to help you navigate this chapter that you may find yourself in but to hopefully offer some different perspective when evil is trying to convince you that God can't be trusted that he's holding out on you that he's not good we want to remind you that while the chapter the year in might be difficult the story that's being written is a good story that in Christ you're not alone that he is not abandoned you he is still at work no matter how dark this particular chapter may be so that's really our message I hear it undone redone so if there's somebody that you know a family member a relative and friend a co-worker maybe who's going through a difficult time maybe share with them the Undine redone podcast life is messy bring your boots and so maybe that's a messy season that they need that perspective they need some hope during the hard times that they're going through so we'd appreciate you could do that also connect with us over on social media Instagram Facebook Twitter also on YouTube if you haven't already subscribed on YouTube please do that hit the little Bell as well so that that will make sure that you're notified when we come out with new content here on the YouTube channel if you don't consume the video channel there at YouTube maybe through your through your podcast player go ahead and subscribe there as well we just want to make sure you don't miss an episode we've got some great guests lined up and can't wait to bring those to you as well so as we get into this conversation with Gary Thomas I am so excited really about his courage to bring to the market a conversation about toxic people we just come through in recent years the me to movement and the hashtag me too and there's a lot of things they're getting airtime about them about sexual abuse and the church spiritual abuse and the church that we dealt with here on the show and this is kind of in that vein where we want to talk about and have Gary who's done the research and has put this new book out is what does it look like to walk away from the toxic people in our lives now obviously a part of that is determining what's difficult and what is toxic because just because of relationship is difficult doesn't mean we're supposed to walk away but there are people in our lives who simply are toxic they're unhealthy themselves and there's no way that we can be the healthy version of ourselves if we're in relationship with them and so I love the fact that he's quoting scripture and going to Scripture and giving us permission to walk away from those particular people in our lives some of your minister leaders and you are getting the very life sucked out of you because you're trying to maybe do like with toxic people who are just just get just again sucking the life out of you so I hope this will be an encouragement to you maybe some of you need to evaluate maybe a marital relationship maybe there needs to be a type of separation because of the toxicity that's currently present in your relationship guys but as we say in this conversation the danger here is that we'll use this as an excuse just to get rid of all hard relationships that we have difficult people are part of life we talk often about marriage it's difficult and difficult by design so just because something is difficult doesn't mean that we're to walk away but there is sometimes when it's toxic that we do need to walk away and Gary does a great job in this conversation of distinguishing those things this is a high-level conversation it's certainly enough talking to the specific points of everybody's story so we do encourage you consult your community consult your ministry leaders consult your therapist if you're in therapy bring some other wise counsel into your situation but maybe for some of you this is the first time maybe that thought is even there but possibly you know what I believe this is toxic and maybe it is time to walk away so before we get into the conversation with Gary I just wanted you to hear from Gary in his own words and provide for you the trailer for this book put out by Zahn depends on different publishers when to walk away finding freedom from toxic people with our good friend Gary Thomas if you're a Christian I'm sure you want a life of the greatest impact I know I do but I had to learn that to have that kind of life it was necessary to learn to play spiritual defense along with spiritual offense you may not realize it but I bet that you or someone you know has a toxic person in their life keeping you from the joy and the peace but also the spiritual ministry that God wants you to do when I found myself running up against the wall time and time again a wise and loving friend of mine pointed out to me how often in the book of Luke Jesus was willing to walk away from those toxic people or let others walk away from him when the situation was unproductive one of the reasons we need to learn how to play spiritual defense is to avoid one of Satan's most clever traps against the work of God's church if you're a believer you can't stop carrying the holy spirit within you compels you to love and to want to reach as many people as possible the satan knows us so what he decides to do is to take that love that God gives to us we could call it that pure water of God flowing through us to to nurture and to meet the thirst of so many others and instead of that water going out into fields to fertilize them and create an abundant harvest he wants to get us to pour that loving water straight down the gutter into the lives of toxic people who not only will never be changed the resent us for even offering it and when to walk away we're going to talk about how we know we're in a toxic situation what are the markers of a toxic personality how do we respond whether we're at work whether or church or even more at home why it's important to be honest about the toxicity we're facing and how we can understand from the life of Jesus when exactly to walk away [Music] but we are so excited one of our favorite guests prolific author Gary Thomas so glad to have you back on the show welcome dun dun Riga well thank you thank you for having me back well I know in another book we want to talk about on its way out tell us jealous parks the title and then just to kind of get into kind of the genesis of why why a book on this particular topic yeah the titles win to walk away finding freedom from toxic relationships and it came out of a revolutionary period in my life where I was budding my head up against the wall spiritually speaking trying to figure out how to deal with the situation how to engage this person why it was going this way what I could do to fix things and a very wise friend of mine said I don't think you should engage it I think you should just walk away and I was she might failure to me that you can't find reconciliation or something I just couldn't believe that would be the case and he said once you go back through the Book of Luke count how many times Jesus walked away from someone or let somebody walk away from him dr. Steve Wilk he's been a wonderful marriage and family therapist for over 35 years so I not only went to the Book of Luke I went to all four Gospels cited everyone and came up with 41 instances where Jesus walked away from somebody after an interaction or he let them walk away from him and it it was mind-blowing hmm cuz I don't know how many dozens of times I've read the New Testament hmm but but suddenly I could see pieces about Jesus saying don't throw your pearls before swine or give what is holy to dogs or if they don't listen to what you say shake the dust off your feet and ones that just I didn't really take seriously because I thought that didn't fit the paradigm but then when I saw how frequently Jesus would break off relationship if the other person wasn't ready or even hostile it was just a new paradigm and I've is my whole life on spiritual offense be surrendered to the Holy Spirit know the word walk in obedience listen for God's voice I never even thought about playing spiritual defence hmm and I was shocked at how much spiritual defense you can find in Scripture it's certainly peace reconciliation all that is is desired but I guess what is your what was your big takeaway you say they were surprised to find that many sightings of this particular teaching where Jesus didn't well here's God himself he didn't heal everybody he didn't meet every need you know even the relationships that he had some some of those did in maybe not the way we would like to see a little neat bow tied around so what was the big takeaway for you as she went through those different different passages freedom person last freedom basically be faithful to what God has called you to do I can't guarantee an outcome from any individual you know what is shocking to me but has changed my approach to ministry is how uncontrolled is powerful as God is and here was even more as right as God is if God could compel us or force us to do whatever he wants us to do I think we'd all agree we'd be better off I would think so because his decision his will is always the right one and yet he doesn't compel us to that famous passage from Joshua choose you this day whom you will serve and the whole Old Testament is a story of God saying this is the way of life this is the way of death I really hope you choose the way of life yeah he lets his people walk away and then Jesus exhibited that in the New Testament where he would speak the truth and I'll never forget one instance and she's seen it in this new light in Matthew 8 you may remember when jesus heals two demonically possessed men and the demons say please send us into the pigs whatever reason she says sure go ahead pigs run over the cliff and and now it's like the crowd appalled their livelihood is she's got this they can have a fire sell on pork chops and bacon but long-term prospects are not looking very good and so they gather together and this is what hit me because I think pork wasn't popular back then either but the thing is what would we pay for a ticket to see Jesus in action here we could see we could ask him questions I mean most how long would we wait in line for that ticket I mean however long it took and yet they came to him the last verse in Matthew 8 is please leave they begged Jesus to leave the very next verse is Matthew 9 1 different chapter but the very next verse says Jesus got into a boat and sailed away didn't walk away he sailed away but the principle is the same they said leave he said okay and so I believe with family relationships with church relationship with friends with strangers the faithfulness means speaking the truth in love with compassion kindness and patience but when they're done we can say okay and walk away or we let them walk away it doesn't mean we failed God may bring someone else into their life it may mean were just sort of step one in a 12-step process but we have the freedom to walk away and to let them walk away and then this was key for me focusing on the reliable people that we could invest in that comes from Paul to Timothy in 2nd Timothy 2:2 he said whatever you've heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable some verses say or translations say faithful people who are qualified to teach others and it's exactly what Jesus did with the rich young ruler who I don't think was toxic but he was close to what Jesus was saying when Jesus said if you want in the kingdom of God you gotta sell everything you have give to the poor and come follow me does he went away sad because I kind of like Jesus but that's too much Jesus didn't chase after him say you know what I know a hundred percent sounds extreme let's talk about 50 all right we can work from there I'll help you grow into a hundred percent instead says Jesus turned to his disciples the reliable people I said let me tell you why it's so difficult for the rich to enter the kingdom of God so I realize that I'm to invest my time in people who want to receive it who have humble hearts I want to be a person who has a humble heart and is willing to receive from from friends and mentors anybody speaking the word but but humility for me is the real key in relationships absent humility ministry can't happen good so I've got a couple of thoughts as you were talking Gary you know one is we need to look at different types of relationships okay speaking of friend relationships community outside our marriage and then we need to move into marriage so let's let's hope maybe primarily you mentioned toxic relationships yes let's look at that like you're walking with a guy you know and and what that would look like if you needed to finally say I love you brother but I'm gonna need to take a step back right now or whatever it is what would that look like so you're talking just about a friend just a friend yes yeah well at that point I think we have to understand what I'm not talking about just difficult people I'm not talking about people who disagree with me and not talk about people who aren't Christians yeah those are the very people were often called to reach out to right toxic is a different designation or I think basically they want you to stop being you they want you to do what they are determined that you are going to do toxic people tend to be very controlling I mentioned how uncontrolled is toxic people are the reverse that you will do what I want you to do and what I found is arguing with them they enjoy it you know it's a cliche you don't argue with the pig you both get dirty and the pig likes it yeah but that's that's toxic people and and it's it's what it revolutionizes how I look at marriage is somewhat because without I think I used to undercut the reality of evil I I just realized you didn't want to get into marriage yet so you can segue in there okay is that Paul lists he doesn't use the word toxic it doesn't have a Greek equivalent but you can see the concepts in Paul's writing and across history 8 and 9 he gives real markers somebody who is lives for anger rage malice slander filthy language and lying now the difference is all of us at times have let her anger get the best of us mm-hmm I doubt anybody could say they've never slandered someone else we may shape the truth but a toxic person lives for that a toxic person enjoys that in the words of Tim McGraw they like it they love it they want some more of it for us were appalled when we do it we want to repent my big did so what would challenge in a relationship or in a marriage what hit me is it for a toxic person the kind of marriage that healthy people seek peace encouragement a quiet intimacy going forward is boring to a toxic person they've want conflict for the sake of conflict they have to turn people against each other a church where everybody's going one direction reaching the loss encouraging others they've got to find something wrong they've got to undercut the leadership because for them excitement is sowing dissension slandering using filthy language lying about what somebody said so that they can be in control of the fights in control of the atmosphere and I've seen it even in an office setting where most of us just want a peaceful office so we can get our work done right a toxic person lives for the fights they're too bored doing something productive they have to live destructive lives and so if I sense that in a co-worker I'm just gonna say we're gonna keep our relationship professional we'll talk about work we don't have to get personal if it's a friend I might even just just cut them off and and just explain I'm my life is full and and a healthy person can receive that I mean I've had people from time to time ask me deeply personal questions which was just kind of surprised me because they don't know me at all I don't know them and they're just emailing me and I I kind of respond a little bit and they say well I just want to be in this relationship where you can tell me anything and I'm like you know I have four guys that I've been walking this life with for about two decades my wife knows them they know me they'll speak the truth they all love the Lord they'll challenge me and right now Hilde those friendships and a healthy person hears that and oh okay sure god bless you a toxic person well who are they and you just kind of but those you just learned to walk away from her out without misplaced Gil I was wrapped in misplace yet this somehow I had failed yeah yeah the way I would put it if I was against a a toxic person if we use the analogy they just had bad spiritual breath the kind of person that eats garlic leeks and onions and gas station sushi without washing out their mouths or something I'd say God please heal my nose with my nose I don't want to say they stink I'm probably too sensitive can you fix my nose and God would be saying to me Gary there's nothing wrong with your nose your nose is my discernment Wow let's go be stinks here spiritually and you need to walk away wow that's a well on the Holy Spirit usually says tap tap tap pay attention to this yeah and a couple of things that come to mind because I think for a lot of us it is not until we start getting healthy that this becomes apparent in our lives and so I know for many of us our normal maybe has been unhealthiness maybe even around some toxic people but that was our normal and that's all that's all we knew which we kind of survived in that and and so I know you may be moving it to more that marriage relationship which I know you've written so much about and and I say would be an expert in that area so how does that move there because you know we we meet a lot of couples who are in crisis and maybe one has decided I don't want to dance this way anymore that's right you know this is this is not working for me anymore and they start kind of this new dance but yet the other person often is wanting to pull them back into the unhealthy dance you know constantly and so it's this and that's usually when we're meeting a couple is when one's wanting and doing a new way and you know and we're trying to help them find this new dance find their footing individually right and then entering the relationship from new ways but one thing that that hits me though I think as our flesh gets into this it would be easy for somebody to hear this and say they just toxic speak to the hand that's right and and I think the real key you're saying that that spirit of humility you know that's behind this and I think so many of us kinda like use Lord fix my nose they were so we're so inwardly focused it must be me that may be a healthy set was just saying eight maybe it could be something unhealthy on the other side so talk more about that marriage relationship now we're yeah I'm sorry no go it's good walking away can be the first step to walking back together which you two would know as man in a min here's a case I use in the book in the controlling chapter there's this man who was his wife came in and the office and he did and she had gone to a lawyer he hadn't served the papers yet but it was all filled out for divorce because he was controlling every aspect of her life they had to eat Mexican food seven nights a week he said well we don't go to the same Mexican restaurant but I had to these Mexican food he controlled the schedule what they watched at night on television when she could go out and do this he controlled they had sex one night a week in a certain position they went to church I mean it was just I don't have time to get into it but it would be stifling for anybody she finally said I can't live this way this is crushing me and I looked at him and I said is this true and he said everything she just told you is true and I was shocked because he was just so honest he goes I don't want to be this way I want this marriage to work and she had gotten in a pup brannad cuz he did to separate and separation can be danger I thought in this case she couldn't breathe but I turned it around and I said to him I'm gonna call him Fred that's not his real name I forget what I call him in the book I don't want to slip up and call him his actual reserve and and I said alright Fred you're gonna go live in the apartment because you caused this to happen you have to face the consequences your wife should get to live in the house and so he did and and it was a spiritual revival for him he didn't turn on the television he had a history of pornography he was done with that he just called out to God he missed his wife and I removed all control I said you can't contact her here's the thing Allison can contact you not her real name yeah and then you can respond to the text but I don't want you even sent in her Bible verses that can sound coercive or encouraging things she determines when and where you meet and the funny thing is as soon as they walked out after that session he said well should we go into a restaurant and talk about it she goes did you just hear what he said and he just really took him awhile so they went through a few months of that and she he was a good guy I mean she missed his his friendship she missed his faith and as she sort of miss him and once that controlling nature was broken and he understood in humility that he needed to repent they were able to be reunited and now this is years later I like to do stories that are proven yes they have a tremendous marriage right now with great intimacy that separation was necessary for her to breathe for him to give up control and and for them to create a new path for their marriage so she walked away but it was the first step to walking back together what would I've seen often happen if a spouse doesn't walk away in time they're so filled with contempt and even hatred and bitterness they paint the other person as incapable of doing anything where I I mean anything is interpreted as evil and manipulative and then usually I find their hearts are just too closed toward reconciliation [Music] one of the things that that I just thought about as you were talking about Gary and and I love how I want to I want to shine a light on what we were talking about related to the separation and and many times train I will do that as well where will encourage a separation and even like you said he wouldn't got an apartment sometimes we'll say and we don't really want you to spend the money to go get an apartment what we'd like to do is maybe find somebody to for you to live with in your church because again we don't want it to be super easy and oh wow this is awesome and I love living by myself also additional financial stress right so it doesn't create financial stress we all have kind of the the covering of the church you know what whatever church that we're working with we're all under that authority cuz you know they could just walk away and say who cares about tree amel and you know go on their merry way but a very structured separation and and that allows just like you said it allows her to heal and him to kind of feel the weight of okay this this is what this could look like but for the sake of them doing the individual work her to come up for air and go okay I'm coming into myself again and I can breathe and I can make decisions for myself and he can begin to say you know Lord what is it that that I'm needing to control and so that can be a really healthy thing but but I find sometimes you know when what I'm not saying it's always the guy but one of the parties are is over functioning because of the toxicity to where they're getting themselves they're losing themselves yeah well and I found that if you aren't willing to walk away sometimes you enable the behavior because a lot of people will say if I can have you and my behavior I'm gonna try for both and they almost have to be forced I was working with another couple where the woman was she hadn't actually consummated and fair but they were moving in that direction and I asked her I said are you done with him speaking of the a fair guy and she paused as I knew she was I said I just need to know because you know I'm meeting with your husband next and the counsel I give him is gonna be directly dependent on the answer you're about to give me because I don't ask spouses to share their spouses right just as a pastor I have to know are you done with him and then she said yes and as she told me later after this marriage worked out again she goes I realized I had to be done with him because pastor Gary's gonna tell my husband he could leave me but but up to that moment she felt like I don't have to choose because her spouse wasn't making her choose right and so I think we get into a place where again it's not mean and it's not bitter it's just honoring marriages there are certain things where I'm not going to share you with this or I'm not going to show you with that and if not then you lose me but you're choosing that not ie we're not the ones that are leaving in one sense we're saying you've already left I'm just acknowledging what you've done yeah and it is what we're talking about is boundaries healthy boundaries for our self and I think a lot of times that's what we don't have because we think good Christians are bound realist that's what I that's what I was you know I'm a supposed to be a godly individual so that just means I'm just supposed to be here to meet everybody else's needs my own needs don't matter if anything I was trying to convince myself I didn't have any needs because that was less than that godly ideal that somehow picked up all that and I think we have these these unhealthy views of what what meeting everybody else's needs is supposed to look like or what what being a godly man or woman and I'm glad you clarified male because sometimes we can and using our examples it's always the guy who's the toxic line and then many couples I'm sure you work with and who we were with it's the female and so it's not just a male or female thing it's it's about you know and sometimes maybe both can be toxic you know as well yeah in the relationship well and we have to remember you know cloud cloud in Townsend and boundaries talk about boundaries and and you know establishing a line is actually a loving thing and many times we think if I you know if I say if you do this I'm gonna have to do this because I'm losing myself in the relationship or whatever that looks like we feel like it's punitive when really I'm loving you know train I ultimately divorce and I remember stepping out of the lawyer's office after we had signed the papers and and I just I gave him a hug and I said I'm loving you well and I'm loving me well because I didn't know how I gotten the point where I'm like I can't be in relationship and have any sense of self anymore I'm gonna lose myself to stay in this relationship and I felt like it was loving both of us well it didn't feel like it there's nothing about divorce that feels like love but it really was and it ultimately was what allowed both of us to get on a path for relationship to come back together and so I I don't know I'd love for you to speak to this to Gary as a pastor who works with a lot of people because sometimes if we can get curious about why is it that I'm not loving myself well and loving my spouse well a quick quick example of a woman that I worked with years ago and she she needed just a healthy separation her husband was having affair after affair after affair after fair and you know for I asked her some questions about her husband and why and why this and really the reason why she would not love him enough to at least separate if she was she was an orphan and you know went through adoption and so that baned admit it would it totally struck her if I do this I'm abandoning him which is my greatest fear and all the earth and so that was what we were able to kind of begin to work through and and talk through some of the identity that finally allowed her to lovingly separate so that there was a hope of restoration but it's it's not always so clear cut just right up here right it was so right much deeper than that so I'd love to just speak to that person who who feels like this is going to be punishing my spouse and I just can't do that or you know whatever whatever the excuse is that they're living in their head the example of Jesus in walking away from his own family when they experience disbelief remember they showed up and I said your mother and father here he said who's my mother brothers sisters it's those who do the will of God from when it says many of his followers after he said you have to eat my body and drink my blood then they're gone and he turns disciples are you gonna leave - throughout Jesus's and sometimes people said Jesus please stay we love what you're saying says no I've got to go other people there other places I need to go how remarkably free Jesus was to disappoint people in a zealous pursuit of his father's will he didn't let the needy the toxic the flatterers or even the Friends direct what he had to do he had one Allegiance that went above everything so I think that's the first thing is having this sense of mission like Jesus did in his example but the second thing that I learned in this whole process it comes from the book of Jude a first verse where Jude gives us three names that were called or loved and were kept mm-hmm and I used to talk to myself in a way I would never talk to my wife I would never talk to my kids you're an idiot can't believe you're doing this you're so weak you're pathetic and and all of those things until I felt God challenging me I should say nothing to myself that I wouldn't say to someone else why because God loves me and it hurts him when I talk ill of myself so I want to get people like that that you're mentioning reconnected with their view that God has from Colossians 3:12 calls them holy and dearly I'm sorry chosen and dearly loved God chose you and he loved you so here's the thing I don't get to call myself names and other people don't get to call myself name call me names God is the only person I'm gonna say that gets to call me names and in Jude 3 he says I'm called loved and kept what I love about this called means this if I committed the worst sin of my life this morning I'm still called now it might be a call of repentance and testifying to what I've done so I have a testimony but God is never completely done with me right you are called as a Christian you're called you have a purpose I'm loved I'm not gonna sin away his love I don't need to get this person to like me I don't need to get this person to change to be okay with God I'm loved because of what Jesus has done not what I do or not how somebody else affirms me and then that third part I'm kept safe in Jesus Christ if if I lose my parents because they reject me I have wonderful parents I'm speaking metaphorically here there will be parents in the church that God will bring in if my spouse were to pummel me or to reject me I'm still kept safe in Jesus if my kids are done with me there'll be people I can import my life into integers that being a part of Christ in Christ in the Church of Christ there's a safety there that God will meet those needs even if the earthly people I depend upon don't and so knowing that I'm called loved and kept it changes the way I'm gonna let people treat me and it changes the way I treat myself yeah as you're saying that you know the passage comes to mind you know love your neighbor as yourself and that that self love is kind of the the basis of that and I always thought that was that was an unchristian thing I was proud and arrogant you know we're supposed to be humble not think too highly of ourselves and all that the speak to of the ministry leader we've got a lot of ministry leaders you know obviously he's listened and what we're talking about this can be messy in a church right and so you know speak to your peers and colleagues and from a pastoral standpoint how do we navigate this in a church body you mentioned you know the example earlier everybody's going this way but that toxic person loves the dissension and loves to be that voice who is the naysayer or wanting to just stir things up and and so obviously many pastors have have dealt with toxic people and maybe not naming toxicity maybe part of the problem is just that maybe they saw them as just difficult people so as a pastor trying to Shepherd a body well maybe how does handling that toxic person maybe help the whole body thrive and trying to keep peace maybe keeps the whole church from really realizing the mission that God has called them to yeah my senior pastor is in his early 80s lifetime of experience and he's challenged made when he was speaking to our deigned a group of pastors that we were ordaining here in Houston he said every temptation of a pastors is that they're gonna be twenty cooks and he's word coats that present themselves because you can spend 30 years trying to fix these cokes trying to convince these cooks trying to turn these cooks around goes at the end of 30 years they're still cooks and you've done nothing that's right and so instead invested speaking but but here's where this comes from scripture Paul said to Timothy and this is significant a young leader take whatever you've learned from me and invest in reliable people other translations use faithful who are qualified to teach others so paul prioritizes ministry as investing in reliable faithful people not rescuing the toxic not rescuing the Kochs look by saying no to the toxic people if they leave it's the best scenario possible and Jesus even warns his followers away from spending too much time in two places in Matthew 7:6 he says don't throw your pearls before swine or give what is holy to dogs and that is such strong language because in the first century when he said dogs he wasn't referring to Lassie or spot or Fifi the family pet yeah Egyptians kept dogs Jews didn't in in Jewish quarters dogs would be those vile mongrels wild this awful and and then pearls before swine he said you could have something so valuable what man so the all he had for a single pearl not only will the pig not appreciate it here's how the verse ends it's really key he will turn and tear you to pieces by speaking truth he's gonna go in and this is why I think humility is is so key a few weeks ago I had oral surgery a root canal had gone bad there was an infection mind and I have to take off the adult tooth right and it feels like they're pulling that tooth out of your jaw through your eye socket or something be really totally kippot and here's the thing if I woke up and somebody strapped me into a chair and did that I mean I'd be screaming bloody murder I would be fighting back he said I paid a guy $1,200 to do that to me and the reason is I knew I needed it I saw the infection in the x-ray they said your body will be fighting that infection until the tooth comes out and so because I was in a place I want you to do this I could receive it with appreciation spiritually toxic people don't think they have an infection and they will resent it as much if you try to pull a tooth when they think you've just trying to con them and you're wasting your time and so the four words I've had that have governed my ministry for the last decade or so is no conviction no counsel if does this person have conviction borne by the Holy Spirit if not I'm not wasting counsel because even if I speak the truest gent --less words in the most appropriate wisest culturally relevant fashion mm-hmm Jesus is saying they're gonna turn and tear you to pieces and I don't want you to do that I want you have to face that the second passage isn't Matthew 10 when Jesus says if you go into a town and they won't receive what you have to say he doesn't say keep letting a bubble you can keep finding although he said dust dust off your feet and go to another town so I would say to leaders is their conviction offer counsel if not take all of that time invest in reliable people man don't give pearls to swine they'll resent you for it don't waste your time aren't enough workers passion Jesus said pray for the Lord of harvest so there's more workers we have a lot of attenders at church we have more tithers than we have workers we need workers so if there's somebody infused with mission I want to say make every one of your minutes count and that's why Jesus said Matthew 7:6 he wants our minutes to count because not because we're so important but because the message is so important not because we're gifted but the Holy Spirit within us is powerful and he says surrender to me I know what you can do and I don't want you to waste your time on fallow ground that's so good all right so I would talk a little bit about community okay you've got a husband or you got a wife that have been living in toxicity and maybe they don't feel safe to go to their church Authority or their spiritual authority to do that talk about the importance of safe community to be able to possibly separate or to be able to potentially walk away I mean what does that look like yeah that is a toxicity within the marriage you saying that okay well of course and and and you guys know this if it's the wife who's afraid of her husband getting violent yeah she counseled for a safe separation if she even speaks about walking away that can escalate the violence so this isn't a kind of thing to do alone and if you don't think your pastor is a safer confidential place I would get this is where you want a licensed counselor who has experience helping with safe separations to go through it a couple stories where it worked again we're even unilaterally one husband he knew he was acting in a toxic way but his wife was also acting in a toxic way he was challenged by his pastor to change his behavior he would get too demanding they worked in a small business together and she would not appreciate the way he would challenge her so she refused to say she was sorry and that she would go into the silent treatment so it's like she would say well if I say I'm sorry I'm giving in to that kind of behavior and I'm not gonna do that he said but for a business to continue you we gotta admit where we went wrong and put it right and so he was unilaterally loving her he said his only feedback was from God his wife was so suspicious she was so bitter but after almost a year I want male listeners to hear this after almost a year 11 months she finally woke up and said look he really is a different man and now I'm acting in a toxic way I think the key in the situation is don't let their toxicity become yours yes right if sometimes that's why we have to walk away because if you can't live with that person without acting in toxic way now you're threatening your own integrity I'm never more tempted to become toxic than when I'm around a toxic individual yeah it's crazy no because you're getting crazy the crazier you are yeah and I think it's easy then to justify that yeah because you know whatever our sinful response that we don't get an out for a simple response just because we yeah we've been humbled ourselves yeah and and this is this is so good and so seldom unfortunately talked about I think in Christian circles and and and I do believe you know for healthy relationships these kind of things are so needed because you know we talked to even a lot of lot of churches we have couples here in crisis and as melodie mentioned earlier we're trying to get the church to be involved because if we're just working with a couple and the church does not you have an idea what's going on then we know it's gonna be hard and when it gets hard they're probably gonna bail so just get the church you know to exercise some of their authority in this and kind of provide some structure that can that can help the couple kind of be catapulted to a healthier place but it is so it's so easy just to just say let's just put it as long as everybody's back together that's right yes yeah they just put that bow on it and that's and that's where so often we want to be yeah my eyes were open I'll admit I've been naive a lot of my life probably still AM I use a lot of ways but when I realize in a couple instances where the person wanted a marriage continued to continue not to have a healthy marriage but because that was the most convenient platform for abuse it wasn't until I looked evil in the eye yes and realize that some people do get a sick satisfaction out of preying on their spouse and the intimacy of marriage makes it more delicious to them because it worse form a betrayal where guys would yeah there's one thing about a guy struggling with porn there's another one about a guy flaunting it in one marriage I mentioned in the book leaving this is old-school leaving a Victoria's Secret catalogue with a bottle of lotion right there in the bathroom for his wife to find on purpose I mean just just just wanting it and saying you can't leave me because I haven't technically had sex with some and and realizing that the skeleton of Scripture is creation fall and redemption and if we forget any of those skeletons I think the human body has it has over 200 bones at 206 I believe that writing is something like if you take out my neck bone if you take out my neck bone I'm in real trouble right I mean I even though I would have 205 bones left over if you take out the fall part of the skeleton of Scripture and try to go from creation to redemption which I think too many Christians do yeah and if you're not aware of evil and how evil infects every good thing that God does and it's so hard for us to hold attention because I have a high view of marriage yeah I fight against divorce but then I also have to recommend in every situation in the New Testament Paul says obey the government God instituted it but then there are several instances in the New Testament where we're called to disobey the government he tells father's Ori tells children honor your father and mother and then he tells father's but don't exasperate your children he says in the book of Colossians this will be controversial or something I don't want to get the whole issues but wives to your husbands but then turns around and says but husbands never be harsh with your wives whenever he even begins to speak of any kind of human authority or influence if they don't like the word Authority he says but watch out the evil doesn't infect a good god given God constructed Authority and I just think I was too naive about the ability of evil that this guy didn't want to help me marriage or this woman may not want a healthy marriage they just don't want to stop being toxic to a person and it's more fun if they can control them in marriage and I believe it's evil to cooperate with evil that's right even if evil is using marriage as the platform free yeah and there's so many situations that we walk with that are coming to mind but also one thing that I'm thinking about is you know just to encourage people who are listening not to try to make a formula out of what we're saying every yes yes thank you every situation is slightly different and you know this this is we're talking very general the general principles it's okay to remove yourself from toxic people it's not healthy to stay in that and I would even say probably and I think both you and melody have said it even a sign of our own unhealthiness if we're willing to stay yeah in close proximity yeah with an unhealthy you know toxic person because what is it saying about me that I still want to be attached to this what I'm losing myself in right yeah when I was it focused on the family recording some shows and they were asking me about this book coming up and it was all the magazine people I said my greatest fear is I know this book will be abuse yes I know that some will take it as permission to walk away from a difficult instead of a toxic marriage but sacred marriage has been abused when I say as I marriage to make it holy more than to make us happy saying that God can use a difficult marriage to help us grow some said they've had masters use that to justify abuse well you should just stay where you are God doesn't want you happy he wants you holy and Sheila who heads up one of the focuses magazine just encouraged to Gary the Bible is misinterpreted and miss applied everyday so you're in good company I'm not waiting my book with the Bible trying to advance the conversation but it is I really try really appreciate what you said because it is true a book is a tool yes to advance a conversation a podcast is a tool to advance the conversation we don't have the final word and some people might say well yeah I can go with you here but I can't take it that far but what what I'm trying to do is bring us back I think from going too far in the other way misplaced belt that allows toxic people to destroy our peace to destroy our joy to destroy our self-esteem yes to destroy church is why we try to placate them when if we just remove them we would have more zest more joy more vitality and healthier families in churches yeah well for those who are you yeah I just want to add one thing because I know for that person who may still be scratching their head be you know because we have hope in the gospel of Christ I want to remind everybody that there's 110 percent always restoration and that is I can control me like I can go to a counselor and I can walk through whatever toxic situation that I'm in and I get to control how I feel and being as whole as I can and restore relationship with the Father but reconciliation is not always up to us it takes to people so thank you also start you know my thing with women all the time is work on restoration first because if you are working to get as healthy as you can be then the decisions that come out of that healthiness will be a lot better than you feeling like you have lost yourself and you have no sense of self and you've just got to run out of this personal restoration personal rest restoration first and then you might be in a better place to make some decisions on if reconciliation is still possible more separation needs to happen or whatever that looks like so I just feel like I needed to say well as we close I think for those maybe as melody said who are scratching their head and then maybe they're in this place because I can see a lot of people listening well it might a difficult relationship Rama I'm at a toxic relationship because it really is hard I don't know which it is and so what would be some practical steps to localize it for them what would I mean obviously getting your book that would be a good read sacred marriage first because because we always say your truth of marriage is difficult and it's difficult by design and it's creative for holiness and sanctification so read that book first yeah but just maybe for that person listen just kind of walk them through maybe some practical things again this too not a formula but just some general things that some people can do after listening well it takes me three chapters the really distinguished toxicity from difficulty yeah we don't have time to get into that controlling is a real concern for me if somebody's trying to control me above god that's a toxic influence I talked about a murderous influence by that I don't mean somebody stabbing you in the heart it's just they're bringing death to your peace they're bringing death to your joy they're bringing death to your self-esteem they're bringing death to your sanity toxic people are usually mastered gas lighters a woman or a husband sees what is clearly true and they make you feel like you're crazy for believing what actually is and that just destroys your sanity you think I'm going crazy trying to figure that and so when you see them destroying churches destroying small groups destroying office environments and destroying your personal peace and all that then you know okay there's a swath of death everywhere we go God brings life the Bible begins with God is a creator jesus said I'm the way the truth and the life and yet Satan is the opposite Jesus said Satan the thief comes to steal to kill and to destroy so if you see destruction in a person's past that's all you need to know and then Paul has a list I think do we I think we mentioned in Colossians 3 rage anger malice slander filthy language line if I've seen all those things coming out and that's energizing the person that's a red flight for me that okay now it's time for me to walk away they're not in a spiritual place where we can interact I would just say this if somebody shy to keep you from being who you believe God has called you to be and they're trying to keep you from doing what you are convinced God has called you to do for you that person is toxic and I think it's best to walk away yeah I think just maybe having a clinical input you know potentially as well you know maybe to have some folks who who do maybe have some specific input into that particular situation you know obviously pastoral help but I think there's a we are firm believers in therapy we've the people we hang out with the people our most cautious ever those who haven't done any work all right the people we want to hang out with you they really begin to do their own work and well I just I'm so excited about the book so tell our listeners how they can get the book get in touch with you if I do have some some questions or maybe some follow-up from this well my website is Gary Thomas comm Gary Thomas comm there are a lot of blog posts on there that kind of introduce this topic if they want to read a little bit more to see if this would be helpful the book website is window walkaway book calm okay window walk away book calm no spaces they can read a little portion from the book pick and see what others say they can get a feel for was about and then delete them to where they can get it so that that's the best place to go okay thank you for that opportunity oh so so excited about it I know I'm ready to get into it myself but I know it's gonna be such a great tool for so many I'm just glad that the church is you know hopefully will awaken to this the the idea of having the healthy boundaries being able to love ourselves well and and just not having this this false guilt that I just got to stay in this I just got to endure this this is my my cross to bear you know kind of thing just you know this is my light and that's that's not the abundant life that God God has called us to so thank you thank you so excited about getting this this book my prayer is that we'll see a church filled with vitalized energized joyful hopeful and confident people because those are the ones who make an impact in the world and if Satan can steal your joy by sending crazy people to you the Bible says a joy of the Lord is our steering yeah and he'll make the church week so that's a it's about preserving God's workers to get the work done not just for our personal comfort yeah so good well thank you so much always always a pleasure to have you on the show thanks for joining us I have your day and we we're excited about getting this book out all right thank you all right guys lots of concepts we're not used to hearing in church I know given permission to walk away from from toxic people I hope this has been an encouragement for many of you maybe for the first time maybe a window of hope is opening up that maybe I can begin to find my my own self again because I've lost myself trying to do relationship with a toxic individual and guys this is not easy because oftentimes the toxic people in our lives our close family members people that we really didn't choose as friends they you know kind of part of our life because of relationships and being related to them so this is not easy by any stretch and guys again we just wise we pray that you will use wise counsel as it relates to navigating some of these difficult relationships of these toxic toxic relationships moving forward because we're so glad you're here I want to put a plug in two for our embark men's recovery intensive you heard us talking about that with our good friend Simeon castile back on episode 2 of 3 but embark is coming up November the 14th through the 17th is our next one is our final embark of 2019 if you or somebody you know needs to do a deep dive into the deeper root issues that's driving unwanted sexual behavior prayerfully consider joining us we got limited space so don't wait November 14th through the 17th you can go to undone reading com forge slash embark to find out more information on our embarking tips of again don't wait space is limited I also want to mention to you this this episode may have stirred up some things and I want to encourage you let's keep the dialogue going if you're listening on youtube provide a comment maybe share a little bit of your story or maybe you don't feel like putting it out there for everybody to read and see and use what it'll maybe leave us a voicemail you can go to London read and calm in the low right corner press the leave a voicemail button and you can leave us up to three minute message we'd love to hear from you maybe the specifics about your situation or maybe just email us trailer tra y l o r and undone redone or melody had undone redone we would love to hear from you and maybe the specific so that you're going through and maybe help you navigate some of those difficult circumstances we guys know this we love you we so appreciate the feedback the comments have been so encouraging over on the apple podcast player if you haven't left us a rating in review please consider doing that that's such a gift to us and what we do here we don't charge for these episodes but that does help get the message of grace that we try to bring each and every week here on the end end Rita and podcast to a broader audience so guys thanks for tuning in this has been episode 204 at the end n Regan podcast remember life is messy bring your bits that today's episode has inspired you woody to fully engage your own story without any marks remember life is messy bring your boots [Music]

Channel: Undone Redone

Views: 27,979

Rating: 4.8781362 out of 5

Keywords: Undone Redone, Undone Redone Podcast, Tray Lovvorn, Melody Lovvorn, Tray and Melody, Gary Thomas, When To Walk Away

Id: dN9xrVV1KhM

Length: 60min 31sec (3631 seconds)

Published: Tue Oct 01 2019