The Bible In The Orthodox Church: The New Testament (Discovering Orthodox Christianity)

hello and welcome to discovering Orthodox Christianity I'm Stacy Spanos your host for the series of programs designed to explain the basic teachings of Orthodox Christianity we're here on the campus of Hellenic College Holy Cross Greek Orthodox school of theology in Boston in the beautiful Holy Cross Chapel in Brookline Massachusetts today we'll discuss the Bible in the Orthodox Church the New Testament our distinguished guests today are Reverend dr. Eugene Penn Chuck he is professor of Old Testament and Hebrew at Holy Cross Greek Orthodox school of theology and dr. Bruce Beck he is assistant professor of New Testament and director of the Steven and Katherine Pappas patristic Institute at Holy Cross Greek Orthodox school of theology welcome to you both Thank You Stacey father Eugene let me begin with you take us back to the time of Jesus what was it like for him how was he received by the masses first of all we don't have to forget that Jesus came to his own people and he said I came to the lost sheep of Israel although we have the tendency of looking at Jesus like an O on the tradition the Orthodox tradition but we forget the first message of Jesus was addressed to the people of Israel and Jesus knew about this and also he wanted to embody the whole history of the people of Israel in his own persona so God the Creator looking at him seeing the new Israel reviving coming back to his mission to become a light for Gentiles of course the first Christianity that we know was the Jewish Christianity and this is very well reflected and the Gospel according to Matthew we see Jesus in his Jewishness he came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it he came with a plan to become the light to other nations actually the mandate that Jesus gave to the parcel was go to the nations that may not going to the people of Israel to the nation's and be the light that Israel was supposed to be now Paul came a little bit later now and he came with this beautiful transition from Jesus the new Israel to what he calls Jesus as he chose Adam the last version of humanity in 1 Corinthians 15:45 he opened Jesus mission to entire humanity and then we have this type of theology if you like reflected in the gospel of his disciple sent look if you look at the both genealogies Matthew Luke you observe this difference in Matthew genealogy Jesus is called the son of Abraham is Jewish in the Gospel of Luke he is called the son Adam so this transition from a Jewish Christianity to a kind of merging Tillich Christianity was done by Paul and then fulfilled extremely well by John and his gospel that's why we have three groups of Christianity Jewish genteel ik and Joe 9 and it's basically that how the New Testament came to exist dr. Beck um the New Testament developed in over stages initially though there was the oral stories that were passed on by the Apostles of through the preaching of the earliest apostles but the books that we have now in the New Testament they really came at the end of the Apostles lives it almost at the second generation of the of the church a time period for that yes the earliest writings that we have in the New Testament date really from art from Paul they date from the early 50s through maybe 63 or 64 AD the Gospels that we have most scholars see them as being written mark being written first around 60 ad somewhere in there Matthew and Luke seem to know the gospel of mark so they're dated anywhere from after 60 up until 80 or so ad and most scholars consider the Gospel of John to be written towards the end of the first century so already the three Gospels being in place the earliest glimpse that we can see of the church reading the Gospels as Gospels doesn't come until the earliest we can see is around 150 by st. Justin Martyr who describes a church service where both the Old Testament is read as well as what he calls the memoirs of the Gospels the memoirs of the Apostles I should say so the development took some time and gradually though by the middle of the second century the Canon that we consider the New Testament was at least largely in place I'm just fascinated that this is a religion that at one point like many other religions throughout history might have died out but it took root in the fabric of the world basically and is thriving to this very day why do you think that is father Eugene I think that everything started like Bruce actually hinted to with the caring ma with that kind of oral proclamation that God sent his son to be incarnated then to suffer for us and to be resurrected and everything was going around the mystery of resurrection this was a mystery and nobody in the time of Jesus could understand why the Jews first of all believed the resurrection actually the resurrection the bodily resurrection is a revolutionary idea starting actually the Old Testament but the Jews believed that this resurrection will happen at the end of time the Greeks didn't believe a resurrection that's why the failure actually the first proclamation of Jesus resurrection and Athens by Paul Acts chapter 17 occurred so to think that these resurrection stories or fabricated is to be out of mind because you didn't serve to anybody so the Christians truly believed in the resurrection of Christ because it happened the midst of history so this is the galvanizing point if you like the energy the seed actually Christianity it was transmitted orally and then because the Apostles were dying now after 60s like we have Jacob we have Peter we have Paul the destruction of Jerusalem the Exile of the first Church in Pella not far away from Jerusalem that were living the the Christians without having the testimonies fixed in writing but the Christian 'ti didn't appear as a religion of a book appeared as a way of living that's why the first title is actually in Acts chapter 9 verse 2 is the way your dose and dr. Beck and this is a time when people were largely illiterate so what better way to teach them through an example I guess exactly I think one of the things to add to father Eugene's comment is that two things were marvelous for people first of all the disciples weren't educated so these men went out and preached and they didn't fear death and all but one of the Apostles was martyred and their disciples were also willing to die for this message of resurrection so even if the message didn't make sense initially the resolve that the early Christians had really made an impression on their neighbors father Eugene how did the Old Testament in the New Testament relate to one another are they two separate books or some point at which today they merge I can tell by your question that I like it so much because I spent so much time on the first chapter of my book to be released I can add here commercial actually yeah will be published by Oxford press next year it's called the Walter the maintenanced an Orthodox tradition and my first chapter is called one Bible two covenants so we as Christians we have to live with this kind of unity in diversity or tensional unity of corporate scriptural corporate water-cement on one hand proclaiming what the uniqueness of God the Lord one person listen to Israel you God is one Lord and then on the other hand you have the New Testament speaking about Jesus the Son of Man the Son of God another person in the Trinity we have this kind of emerging Christology we have a little bit of Mythology with the Holy Spirit you know work in this saga of salvation so we have discontinuities and continuities and telica the continuities are two most important ideas that Israel we inherited from Israel the belief in one God there is only one God even though we say 3-person there is only one God is the triune God and this is one revolutionary idea that we inherited from Israel second one was the most important to believe in the bodily resurrection and return of ourselves at the end of time in a new environment a new earth and a new heaven what a beautiful idea and today actually in more Protestant circles but even an hour or todo she will speak about the dwelling in heaven which actually is an entering period of the soul still the resurrection of the bodies but we don't have to forget the Old Testament comes with this concreteness he brings concretist the history of salvation it's not only spiritual things but is this world change transforming starting with that big change realized by Jesus Christ but the big discontinuities remains and remain till the end of time this candle izing block that Paul called actually the scandal Jesus Christ at the center of this corpus that we call the Christian Bible his Jesus Christ you accept him or not but this is the big actually discontinuity that we cannot solve but hoping that one day we're going to share the resurrection of Christ and believing this and actually this is the important set in the liturgical setting which is a preview if you like a kind of model for our selves and I'll believe because you are hoping so we need what an environment the environment is the liturgical setting but this solves a little bit the problem of unity in diversity tension or unity engine engine dr. Beck let me ask you some denominations don't even turn to the Old Testament don't even use it is that right or wrong is that something that the Orthodox do it's not something that the Orthodox do although we don't read the Old Testament in the Divine Liturgy as much as we used to but in the major feasts of the church the Old Testament figures as foundational and one of the most tenacious foundations of the church is that it refuses to shake off the Old Testament it refuses it has refused various heresies especially the second century by Marcion to relegate the Old Testament to something other than scriptural status and the mark of Orthodoxy has always been that it is one Bible Old and New Testament so if we have if to the to the degree we diminish the Old Testament and we edged away from the central history of Orthodoxy so who decided what would be in the New Testament it's a great question I think that the the first principle of choice is that the the New Testament was written for the church and by the church and there's the writings of Paul were written passed orally it was the way in which he was able to manage his parishes because he couldn't be there in all of them at the same time and so even Paul in his letters said please share this letter with the church over a few counties away so he even while he was alive understood that these letters should be shared by the end of the second century they had become collected as a group of 13 letters and we're being useful in the church second Timothy 3:16 says that all Scripture is inspired by God and is useful for and it goes on and lists a number of things so the decision of what's included and not included in the church largely is determined by this rather subjective criterion of is it useful for the building up of the faith and some books was organized to debate this issue later councils approved a definitive list of 27 books but they were already well in use long before these formal councils by the end of the 2nd century there were only a handful of books that were being discussed one way the other 2nd 2nd Peter the book of Hebrews the book of Revelation but by and large by the time we're at the time of st. Irenaeus around 175 AD the bulk of the Gospels and Lou and the Pauline epistles are all in place and they all adhere to the gospel and they adhere to this criterion of being useful yes go ahead something actually to that the criterion of canonicity of the New Testament we don't have to forget that the Christians like I said they don't start with the idea let's have the Scriptures like the Jews they had the scriptures already Bruce mentioned the text that phenomenal text and second Timothy chapter 3 16 speaking about all agraphia the entire scripture referring to the Old Testament so they adopted a criterion of bringing in and excluding books from raisa this criteria was in the time of josephus flavius was if a book can be proved that was written by a prophet is part of the Canon so to try actually Josephus Flavius says the books of the Old Testament can be listed from the time of Moses up to the time and Malachi the last prophet because after that God didn't speaks of the prophets so prophetic origin or nature of the Baroque dictates which book to be part of the Canon the same later one in Christianity you see builds the great historian came with very similar type of criteria the post aaalac origin if a book can be proved it was apostolic was written by an apostle or a disciple of the puzzle is in if not is out so many you I can answer even to your question to previous questions say where we have this kind of Gospels that are floating around they couldn't prove the postulate original nature so that's why the check the church rejected one but there are other criteria beside this doctor back to the Gospels present a consistent vision of Christ this word consistent is well get Charlie to let me challenge that just a moment is that the Gospels present diverse and yet harmonious images but they are not the same and some some people think that the diversity of the Gospels is due to if you will for different people witnessing the same event in each having their own sort of angle on it and they go away and they write what they saw but the Gospels turn out and I think one of the results of scholarship is that the Gospels turn out to be extremely thoughtful and they they are intentional about the image that they produce of Jesus and I sometimes think of the metaphor of iconography to depict the differences of the Gospels is that just as we see different depictions of icons where some sometimes a detail is there and sometimes it's not the Gospel writers were each wanting to present some aspect of Jesus so you mentioned in our discussion earlier the Gospel of John and that John is the image of John picks up on Jesus being preexistent but none of the other Gospels really accentuate that but they accentuate other things so I wouldn't ask full of John is different from the other three Gospels yes and it's made from a different kind of cloth and I mean that literally is that the we call Matthew Mark and Luke synoptic Gospels because they each Matthew and Luke are sharing looking at mark mark is the most people agree that mark is the first gospel in that Matthew and Luke actually know the Gospel of Mark and are making an adaptation and adding their own materials that they have from tradition to create a very deliberate change Luke goes as far at the very beginning of Luke he says while other Gospels have been written this is meant to be an orderly account of the life of Jesus Christ so Luke's very aware that other Gospels existed and he has a particular kind of approach he wants to give to it father Eugene let me ask you this why does most of the New Testament revolve around the writings of st. Paul I just mentioned that great idea to call Jesus Christ not simply the new Israel but to call him eschatos Adam the last version of humanity the person who came the midst of history he is already sealing our destiny Jesus Christ because he's called eschatos Adam is not the second Adam is called the last Adam so Paul made this beautiful leap of faith I would say from the land of Israel Eretz Israel go to tiredly go to nations now and proclaim Jesus Christ the Saviour of all because he is not only the new Israel but him bodies should be entire humanity so Paul and also Paul don't forget through his three missions missionary missions he was not a localized author like we no traditions about mark being in Egypt matter in India these are apostles which are localized were like leaders of some communities Paul is the leader of the entire church emerging now expanding up to Spain so that's why Paul has so much popularity but I would say that kind of theological idea that Jesus is not just for the Israel but for the entire world is not for into to redeem Israel to become a light for Gentiles but Jesus himself is the light of Gentiles so no other Gospels were written why aren't they included in the Bible I would say what Bruce actually said it very well here it's very interesting as I consider the power of the Holy Spirit here because if you look at these Gospels they are so diverse but they have a common trait that common trait is to keep intact the mystery of incarnation but when I look at Jesus Christ is divine and human the same time you'll find this kind of portrait of Jesus in any gospel doesn't matter if it's a synoptic gospel with his job when you look for example in the Gospel of whatever was Thomas or James the Gospel of James the prototype angle of James 2nd century you find this kind of balance tilting either to the humanity of Christ or divinity of Christ so the church who knows was very attentive to keep this balance which is well stricken in these Gospels between the divinity and humanity of Jesus Christ so probably this one the reasons that I believe that church actually operated another character of the canonical Gospels is that the they all appeal to the unity of the Old Testament with the New Testament so when we read the New Testament the Gospels we hear how Jesus is the fulfillment of the Old Testament and some of the other gospel the the non-canonical they don't they're not grounded in that they're not and they don't say that the teaching about that relationship between the prophecies and Jesus are actually given by the Lord as Luke does for example I asked you about our revelation considered a part of the New Testament it is revelation has the unusual distinction of being within the New Testament Canon but it's not within the liturgical reading cycle of the church so the book of Revelation is never read in a service in the Orthodox sure why that is I it was a late kind of decision I believe it was because they didn't feel that it would be understood and it's still to this day it's can it be completely understood can I jump yes one of the characteristics of Revelation actually the uniqueness of Revelation is the fact that it's a prophetic book and is the only prophetic book in the New Testament do we know who wrote it we are we at least according to the criterion about olicity Eusebius and the time i will see this everybody knew that the book was written by paul by john scuse me or one of his disciples that's why the book actually was in and out but for different reasons the book was in when the Christians needed some comfort going to be what killed for their testimony they needed a book like this saying that one day they will have the crown every word and the kingdom of God what Constantine came now the book was out because the Christian said we don't need this kind of comfort so the book came back around probably 5th century because again that cat that criterion of a post olicity people believed that the book of Revelation was written by John but my point here is with the book of Revelation being out and in and Christians didn't feel at ease to introduce passages in the liturgical rubrics it's the fact that the book is you Niq is a prophetic book and christianity didn't start as a prophetic actually as a fulfillment of the prophecies of the Old Testament as what as a kind of announcement of a historical event Jesus Christ galvanizing the entire history of human humanity so Christian Tina feel it is having a prophetic book among the other books which are simply you know letters epistles you have a book of history the act when you have these Gospels that we can put in the biography type of jewelry that are is wrong so that was a little bit of not being quite what the Christians believed about their own religion is not that much prophetic as much as the fulfillment of old prophecies because dr. Beck I'm sure you're aware some people only look at revelation when they open the Bible some sometimes the Christians yes yep yes yeah prophecy even people who are non-christian just tuned to gaze and to look and you know yeah curiosity absolutely I think one of the things that the Orthodox Church did take the Revel a book of Revelation into full account is it influenced the way that the church worships and the way the church understood the the heavenly mystery the heavenly liturgy and so it had a great impact on our understanding of how we ascend to the altar with the Angels in order to participate in the liturgy so in subtle ways it had a large impact so how is the New Testament read and used in the Orthodox faith tradition it's a wonderful question the some have said that if if you never open up the Bible you still hear so much of it by by being in the in the Divine Liturgy and so the first thing I would say about how the the New Testament is read or heard is that we hear so much of it in the the hymns and the the prayers in the in the Divine Liturgy and other services we hear the Psalms when we go through the hours of the services of the hours and not just the quotations from the New Testament but also a lot of illusions so that's the first the second is I was I was so surprised when I was handed a copy of the gospel that the priest reads from because when you open this big book do you expect to see you know chapters and verses of the Bible but rather you see the readings by whatever the day is that that the scripture is being read and so our our Bible in the in the church is actually comprised of the four Gospels in this order and the book of the Apostles so we don't have a big fat Bible like you would buy at the Barnes & Noble in the church so everything is ordered by the liturgical calendar and father tell me how this is different from our Roman Catholic brothers and our partisan brothers and sisters when you look to these differences between orthodoxy and Western you know type of Christianity we have to ask ourselves what is the definition of Scripture a relationship with tradition because always we operate with another term tradition orthodoxy looks at the scripture like a channel of the transmission of the revelation of God we have these beautiful phrasing 2nd Timothy chapter 3 16 that all agraphia blessed us the entire scripture is inspired is one translation but could be another translation that the entire scripture is actually God's breathing through so for us as Orthodox that's why we have an elastic view of lexical view looking the Canon our candle is open-ended at least in terms of Old Testament is to look at the scripture like an instrument or a channel through which God speaks through to us now if we go to the westerns they will click the scripture as a source as like recording the mind of God the Protestants of the Catholics are the same now the Catholics we know after the Second Vatican Council they change a little bit the terminology they don't use for the traditional scripture the terms sources of the revelation of God they are coming close to our understanding which is older understanding so the scripture is a channel now how was the use actually the first church and then what we consider the Orthodox like a continuation the first church visibly the western side of Christianity I put again in my book and I have to coat these actually is the part the last part of the conclusion we Orthodox we put an accent on the formative use of the scripture that's why when you see here we don't have this kind of exemplar but you know in a church like 14th century you'll find Elijah like fasting this is a reminder for the Christians we are at the time of land so we have to fast so it's kind of formative more informative we didn't create departments a Bible actually the Bible is for everybody and intuitive I would say even though some of the scholars who think that we the patristic exegesis is what defines the word odyssey i think that it's the liturgical exegesis because in liturgy you have the mind of the fathers you know snapshots of their commentaries but you have that kind of flexible thinking of the artists because if you are a hymnography you don't have so much responsibility as a father going to the councils so you put all these kind of artistry in work for the benefit of i lovely passion you have and dr. Beck let us end with you how can people make the the New Testament or the Bible truly relevant in their life the first would be to read it I think that sometimes even what I said earlier about our divine liturgy and our services and as Father Pentateuch said that it everything is infused and saturated with Scripture I think that sometimes we as Orthodox think today that well the Bible reading Christians are the Protestants and that that's not really for us but there were different times within the Orthodox Church where everyone was talking about the scripture they knew the scripture well the time st. Simeon the new theologian just a few years ago the 11th century he he talked about the problem of everyone knowing the scripture but not necessarily knowing it in such a way to have God transform them but everyone was knowledgeable of the Scriptures st. John Chrysostom in the end of the fourth century encouraged his parishioners to read ahead Sunday's gospel at home and we sometimes forget that we are in fact encouraged to to read and so I think that that's really the first step and we have on our Greek Orthodox Archdiocese website the daily readings the Apostle the Epistle and the Gospels and they're there you always know where you are in the liturgical map if you're an Orthodox Christian you never have to wonder what should I read what should I open because there's always something that's already provided for us in terms of what we can read so something that perhaps it's dangerous because well who can tell for sure the interpretation but I think that's probably a good problem to have well we thank you both for your time today father Eugene dr. Beck thank you so much and please join us for the remaining programs in our series discovering Orthodox Christianity you can do so by logging on to youtube.com slash Greek Orthodox Church I'm Stacey Spanos thanks for joining us you you you

Channel: GreekOrthodoxChurch

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Keywords: Greek, Orthodox, Christian, America, The Bible (Religious Text), New Testament (Religious Text), Eastern Orthodox Church (Religion)

Id: sQ9tBd2ghjc

Length: 34min 31sec (2071 seconds)

Published: Sun Nov 03 2013