The Ethics Of Orthodox Christianity (Discovering Orthodox Christianity)

hello welcome to discovering Orthodox Christianity I'm Stacy Spanos your host for the series of programs designed to explain the basic teachings of Orthodox Christianity we're here on the campus of Hellenic College Holy Cross Greek Orthodox school of theology more specifically in the beautiful Holy Cross Chapel today our discussion will focus on the ethics of Orthodox Christianity how are we as Orthodox Christians guided to live an ethical life how do we make the difficult decisions each and every day so joining us today are His Eminence metropolitan Nicholas of Detroit thank you for being here good to be here and also Reverend father Marc seats I'm a pastor of Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church in Lansing Michigan your eminence let me begin with you is there a standard for us Orthodox Christians to follow when it comes to leading an ethical life well I I think we start out at least from my perspective I start out from the beginning of the baptismal service and the statement begins blessed is God who desires that all should be saved and come to the knowledge of truth so all of that ethical and moral value to me centers around that issue that God wants us to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth how we do it that becomes part of the message of the church of its of its ascetic disciplines of its liturgy of its worship of its fasting but above all I think it just is that issue where God calls us ultimately to become as he is and so for me all of ethics is centered around that becoming as God is Father Mark let me ask you what parts of the Bible specifically focus on living an ethical life well there are ethical Commandments and instructions throughout the Bible there are particular parts that are rich with ethical instructions so the Sermon on the Mount Matthew chapters 5 through 7 the Epistle of James in the New Testament has a great deal of ethical concern in it st. Paul's letters to Timothy 1st and 2nd Timothy in particular but even you know the epistles of st. Paul which are heavily theological every epistle starts out with a theological discussion but it always moves into ethics knowing this about God knowing this about Christ Paul then turns to ask and how should we then treat each other in the church so the ethics are throughout the scriptures give us some examples of how we should be leading ethical lives that are delineated in the Bible well the Lord Himself when asked about ethics gave the basic answer love the Lord your God with all your heart soul mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself now the outworking of those two kinds of loves involves more specific things like for my neighbor the important thing is doing unto others as I would have them do unto me and if people just followed that one golden rule what a wonderful world it would be but that means having a certain mindfulness in every interaction to think about what is it that that other person needs from me and how can I respond to that need in an appropriate way your eminence can we go back to the Old Testament and say that the Ten Commandments are our set of ethics or code of ethics I think it's fair and I think what we see there is the first group of Commandments to really deal with ourselves in God it's really what father Mark has said that Jesus summed up on two issues hangs everything the relationship with God and our relationship with our neighbor and the rest of the commandments deal with our social outlook on our father and mother they deal with do not steal do not covet the first part being I am God and I and love the Lord God so so we have that I think the most important thing for us today though is to recognize perhaps that there is a standard that's the hardest issue in today's society for us to acknowledge that there is a core value and system that is not specifically of our own making and surpasses any kind of cultural context because it really comes from God and the Ten Commandments in a way begin to embody that for us just as Jesus is summation and the two points embodies that for us these are outside of the purview they're not to be they're not voted on it is it is above all things a reflection of God himself and his love for us father Marc taking the Ten Commandments discussion one bit further there are some Commandments that some of us break on a daily basis for example gossiping there are some Commandments or one command to kill I would never kill anybody I don't believe I would are there the commandments in paraded in the eyes of God because they seem to be for us humans here on earth well it for human beings of course there is that sense that there are the big Commandments and the little Commandments and that we if we don't break any of the big Commandments then were ethical people but the Lord Himself said and this comes from the Sermon on the Mount that if you hate your brother you're as guilty of murder as if you actually murdered him at least in the eyes of God that to wish someone to be dead is in effect to have this desire that God would not let that person live and in that desire you've killed them in your heart so even that that transgression in the heart makes one a murderer and let's be honest we've all had feelings of hatred for other people and so in that sense even that major commandment gets broken by all of us once in a while your eminence are our ethics more than just maintaining social order because they do a pretty good job of that if we follow them well but should it be a higher purpose view but the whole function of that if I go back to the baptismal statement is to be is salvation the whole function of that from my perspective as a clergyman and as a Christian is to bring me within that living context of the kingdom of God and within his family so that ethics help guide me on the right path you talked about choices father made reference to some of the issues that are that are dealt with how do you what what is the what would we call that that neutral above question guideline that helps us make the right choice and I think we keep coming back to these two things at least I do the one is the acknowledgement of God and the second is his command that I have to serve the neighbor so it is both an upward movement and it is a horizontal movement that God offers us how we do it that may become a more difficult issue in our in the context of our society today but I that's where I Center it let me ask you father Mark about people who are sick or hungry or suffering in some way you might hear the thief say well I stole in order to feed my family that should be a forgivable sin what's your take on that does God make that allowance all sins are forgiven with repentance of course the issue of someone stealing in a time of need is did they actually go out and ask for the help that they need because sometimes our own pride which is the first of all sins keeps us from asking for the help that we should be looking for and so your eminence maybe you had more thoughts on this perhaps on the issue of someone stealing to feed his family well you know I think part of the issue is what are the needs I mean someone who has a hundred dollars and and uses it in some way that doesn't uplift his family because that's part of the issue that's a problem to me someone who actually needs help just within our the context of our government structure well let aside the issue of the church we have every opportunity to help people sometimes the problem really is people don't want to ask - and it's unfortunate in today's society that one of the kind of excuses for stealing is poverty and I don't know that that really is a sustainable answer I think it's a common answer over they stole because there's poverty there so there's a high crime rate a high crime rate for what for stealing a can of beer there's something wrong in the equation and I think it comes out because we haven't preached well enough that fundamental message of being called to become like God that's where this all centers on to me we are called to become like God and God at his heart is a giver he gives us the earth he gives us his son were called to be givers to help we're not really called to be takers the orthodox church speaks a lot about God as a giver God as love if God is love why does he judge us why does he cast some people into hell is there a heaven in hell well that's a good question does he cast them in or do we kind of walk in there willingly once you have an understanding of what is good and what the Lord desires of you to use the scriptural term and you choose willingly to go another way what are we supposed to do father mark referenced earlier the issue of consequences in one of our earlier discussions that for every action there's a consequence and if God had not given us freedom I mean that's really where that ties to if God had not given us freedom if we are not free to do what is good then we are not free to do what is evil either then everything is just neutral and it doesn't make any difference what we do then God is fully responsible but if we are free and if I can choose to be good or to be hateful then I also have to accept the consequences of that act Father mark what are your thoughts well I want to get back to the Ten Commandments because outside of the Ten Commandments themselves is the preamble which is I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt and that's the basis for God having the right to make the commandments on us is that he says to the people of Israel I saved you and out of that salvation you should live a life of gratitude and I'm going to tell you what I want from you by way of gratitude and that's true for us as Christians - we have the same sense of living a life sort of on borrowed time if I can use that expression but it's a life that that shouldn't be ours except for by the grace of God and so out of that sense of gratitude we live st. Paul says your not your own you were bought with a price God who judges us doesn't judge us with the idea that he's going to throw us away forever but he wants us in gratitude for what we've received from him to return to Him always and I think that sense of ethics growing out of gratitude it should be part of our discussion and your eminence I know that you've counseled people over the years who have been in deep spiritual turmoil what do you tell them to give them peace of mind do you tell them yes you are bad you need to confess you need to feel guilty about this how do you handle it I think we have two issues there on the one hand the person who's in deep distress needs to know that they're not standing alone so they need to know first that God is there God is there and and we need to start from from that idea following that I think it's also helpful for the person to be able to recognize I did something wrong because if we can't recognize we did anything wrong we can't change the behavior either and in recognizing that we've done something wrong comes the request for forgiveness God we know always forgives the repentant his heart is one of love so I think for the people in in in whether they be in prison whether they be in a deep spiritual turmoil in their homes or in deep depression we have to start out from the idea that God is there and that they are loved after that we can open up but nobody wants to go through that that issue alone no one can stand alone in in the prison no one can stand alone in their home we are never called to be simply alone we're always called to be part of the community to begin with so I think that's that's what I've seen for the people I think that's beautiful that you approach it from first you're not alone because I think in this culture in this day and age we tend to think of how are we going to punish this person but when you come to them with love first wow that melts away the walls perhaps that these people have built up against them and then comes repentance ideally father Marc what do you say to people his Eminence is right that giving people a sense of their own innate dignity as children of God is an indispensable step in having them come around to see a higher way of living st. Gregory the theologian said that that sense of self respect is the first medicine of all the the medicines in the spiritual healers cabinet and telling them you're indeed you are loved and lovable is that first step in coming to God I would even tell you I remember from my hospital work that the most important thing that I could offer to a person who was struggling and I had various kinds of patients but was a touch they needed to know that as a human being they were not alone and not untouchable and not untouchable they needed to know those two things and I learned that particularly there and I saw it and I saw I saw the miracle of that human touch father Marc let me ask you here priest talking about live the life in Christ what does that mean to an individual the life in Christ a life in Christ it has kind of a double meaning it was used especially in the scriptures by st. Paul so when he says in Christ he means a couple of things first of all he means in the church so this comes from his conversion experience where he had this vision of Christ while he was on the road to Damascus and Christ asked him why are you persecuting me well st. Paul wasn't persecuting Jesus Christ he was persecuting Christians but he understood from the Lord's statement that the body of Christians was the body of Christ so to be in Christ first of all is to be in the church there's no being in Christ not being actively participant in the church being in Christ furthermore means having the Spirit of Christ at work in you living in you living out the love for God and the love for fellow man the Ceph self sacrificial love that Christ exemplified for us I'm in another word that could go hand-in-hand with that as theosis explain that explain that to us well I think what we're trying to say there is reflecting that reality of living in Christ so that Christ is effectively living in us that we become more like our Father in heaven God and that's what we're looking for with that it's it should be a change of the human personality it really in effect should be a change for each one of us every time we come into the church we should never just be leaving the same way you know coming in the morning I'm whatever time I come in and I go to church and maybe I receive community I leave and come back the next Sunday without having made any stride theosis is that idea that we are continually coming closer and in that process of enlightenment that we grow so that people when they see us by our words and our actions see not simply Father mark or the bishop or whoever but see and hear not just the voice of church but the very presence of God I think a lot of people could get what's the word I'm looking for discouraged I guess if they feel like they have not reached that enlightened stage the holiness that they OSU's what do you tell your parishioners to encourage them to keep trying because even you know all due respect all of us here are trying to attain that are we not we're human well it's not a question of comparing ourselves to some impossible standard but rather seeing the pattern of growth in one's life seeing the opening up of one's heart of a love for others and that includes works of mercy generosity with our blessings it's just being able to trace the fact that you're moving from one degree of God likeness to another and not not being discouraged just because we're not all the way yet it's like climbing a mountain step by step a little bit higher and higher always striving to do a little bit more your eminence please educate me because when I was 12 years old and growing up and seen a Rapids Iowa I went to a Vacation Bible School at a church of a in church different denomination from ours and I remember the counselor sitting there telling me all you have to do to be saved as to say I accept Jesus Christ into my heart is that how our church handles and I just remember trying to do and I felt like I was trying to put a square peg in a round hole just didn't feel right to me at age 12 no disrespect anybody who feels comfortable with that is that what our church requires to be saved I think I think that has become a very simple concept in some of the Christian churches I think the real issue is yes we are called to invite Christ in that begins that call begins from our baptism but we are called really to follow that process of theosis and we recognize the the the problematic that they're bringing up is that can you then refuse salvation is your freewill functional or not functional so our church wouldn't deal in that term our church would say I was saved by God's act of mercy I am being saved now and I shall be saved as I as the kingdom of heaven opens up to me and particularly with the with the judgment I think the greater issue for us is that there is a continual process father mark use the issue of the mountain there is a continual ascent of the mountain I can't stop at any point my goal is to get to the top and so I have to keep going up and I have as a human being that god-given if I can say it in that context given right to say I choose not and to accept whatever the consequence is our Father Mark talked about consequences I can accept that so I need to invite Christ in I need to want him to come into my house I need to want him to make that his dwelling as well not just here in church in my house to have him with me all the time but I can't simply say that it's done I just said I love you Jesus and I'm saved and that's what is there a checklist for Orthodox Christians if I take a look at this list and say okay I didn't take the Lord's name in vain I did charitable works check that one off now I'm okay with God if I don't think where was that easy only were there there's not a checklist there is though the well-trodden path towards salvation that's been shown to us down through the ages by the Saints and we see as they engage themselves in the life of the church the life of worship and ascetic discipline the life of love for God and man we see them growing in holiness and we read the stories of their lives and we say to ourselves I want to be like that kind of person that's who I want to be like well then follow their way of life and that's so it's not a checklist but it is a path that we've seen many go down and achieve salvation do you believe we should be look reading the Bible and seeing Jesus example and also the Saints examples absolutely we should be reading the Bible it's our basic spiritual nutrition just as our physical body needs nutrition to grow so if our spirits are to grow into Christlikeness they need nutrition and exercise and arrest and our nutrition is basic it's the scriptures it's the lives of the saints it's the the life of the church our exercise is worship generosity spiritual disciplines through fasting and prayer our rest is times of silence and contemplation apart from the cares of the world where we just ceased to be so busy and exist with God just to listen to the Lord and we need all those things as we exercise that muscle get stronger as we know let me ask you your eminence about disciplined living and the life of the ascetics because there are many in the Orthodox faith who do I don't want to say take it to the extreme perhaps you can come up with a better term but they're extremely faithful and they're extremely disciplined is that the norm should we be looking to them for examples of that kind of living I think the church calls us to a sense of discipline and if we want to use the term askesis we can use that term a sense of structure we're called I mean if you if you look at the life in a monastery where there's a structure of worship there's a structure of work there's a structure of confession there's a structure of hospitality all of that is embedded within that tradition and we are called to that as well so some people are more disciplined than others I think that what happens for people who are disciplined with joy because to me that is really the telltale difference are they disciplined because they are have a weight on their shoulders or they discipline because they have been freed of all the requirements of life and all they seek is to love God there's a difference in that and that sense of discipline which frees us from having to spend money to buy things we don't need from you know with money we don't have to impress people we don't like as the saying goes we're freed from that our discipline becomes different it becomes a discipline of joy and there is a difference in that discipline of suffering that some people think is the way to go and to have their face downtrodden but as you mentioned earlier scripture tells us when you're fasting no one should know so there's a difference and that there is a there is a remarkable sense of grace about the person who's discipline brings joy so how do we as Orthodox Christians who might live in an unstructured environment take up this cause and of discipline living well I think one of the first things we have to do is understand what our worship is about why are we even coming to the church I mean is there is there a function and a purpose and in doing that to begin to ask the questions that change our lives and help us model after God and that comes through confession it comes through talking with the local pastor the priest it comes with with reading the works of the fathers it comes with understanding and recognizing that we are not necessarily on our own the best judge of ourselves we have to hear the voice of the priest tell us yes that was a good decision sometimes and maybe what we thought was foolish was really God's mercy and love father mark what are your thoughts on that we were talking about the aesthetic disciplines and I was thinking about the fact that we came in on the same flight out of Detroit to come to the seminary today and I had a suitcase in another bag and His Eminence had just one little bag and you know I thought if only I could learn to pack light I don't need as much as I think I need and that's really what the ascetic disciplines are about is figuring out that in this world we don't need all that we need to be and the less that we carry along the happier and lighter we can be we don't need as much fruit as we think we need we don't need as much play or rest or some of the other things that we think we need and so the church trains us to be light Packers on our journey towards the kingdom of God very nice so you have been in the clergy your eminence for many years at Father mark how many years 13 years of priests two years a deacon so you have encountered it all probably when it comes to dealing with parishioners and being with those and offerings alms comfort I guess to people who are emotionally distressed so at what point should we come to our priest if we have an ethical dilemma I'm sure certainly you have people coming to you more often the same ones over and over again with the smallest problem I I think the priest if we are understanding his function within the role of the parish really is is on behalf of the bishop taking care of the community he should act as that spiritual father and so as we would discuss with our own family issues that are troubling us I think we would come to the priest now I don't think we need to come and ask him I'm very upset I don't know which gift to buy for my brother and that's it but issues that that that torment our heart or our soul and our spirit and I think the priest in his wisdom and discernment has to also help make a decision which issues can we deal with from a church perspective and which issues really have to be dealt with in a a medical perspective if I can say that through through another form of counseling so I would like the people to ask I'd like them to feel comfortable coming to me or to father and saying I've got this issue and I'd like in that process for them to learn how to make good decisions by hearing the priest or hearing the bishop or hearing the counselor talk about what is important here and and removing the personal bias if I can use that term and and dealing with what is really true and lasting remark I'm assuming that there's training that goes on in seminary to help people with ethical dilemmas tell me a little bit about that we do we had we have coursework in Christian ethics we have coursework in pastoral theology pastoral counseling and those all help but there's no replacement for the on-the-job training that comes from dealing with the wide variety of issues that our parishioners face in their day to day lives one of the core things that were taught and that we teaches the church is that the church is like a hospital a spiritual hospital and the priest is like a doctor for the spirit and you ask when should people come to see their priest about a problem well it's like going to see the doctor if I if I cut my finger I'm not going to take take it to the doctor I'll take care of it myself but if it becomes infected then I'll go seek another level of help for the hug I will go see the doctor in that case the same thing with people's problems I'm sure his eminence feels the same way I do is that we would prefer to people people come sooner rather than later with family issues because oftentimes by the time they come to the priest things are almost past the point of really being easily resolved whereas if they come soon we can direct them either to the teachings of the church or to other professional help as it may be needed to get things back on the right path and finally your eminence can we make bad choices and still consider ourselves Christian bad good we don't make the best choices every day all of us are consistent in that issue that we are not perfect I think the difference between a poor choice and a bad choice may be the intentional desire to do what I know is wrong that is to me is a bad choice a poor choice is I really didn't get where I thought I was going to go I mean maybe I should have done it otherwise and can we still be Christians sure because the real issue is can we recognize I didn't do the best thing and come and ask the priest by the grace of God to place his stall over our heads into here and to confess our weakness and to hear from him that the presence of God is there and that as God forgave David and Nathan and all he too forgives you father Marc you asked earlier about if there's a checklist to know if we're a Christian and that would definitely be on the checklist the ability to recognize that one has made a mistake and to say to the Lord and to one's brother please forgive me recognition then and then repentance repentance thank you eminence metropolitan Nicholas of Detroit we appreciate you being here today and also father Marc seat Summa thank you so much and for more information on any of the topics we've covered in our series discovering Orthodox Christianity please visit go arch org to view additional programs you can visit our youtube site it's youtube.com slash Greek Orthodox Church I'm Stacey Spanos thank you for watching you you

Channel: GreekOrthodoxChurch

Views: 13,573

Rating: 4.9454546 out of 5

Keywords: Greek, Orthodox, Christian, America, Ethics (Field Of Study), Orthodox Christianity (Religion)

Id: S6Ph5m6Pi1s

Length: 32min 2sec (1922 seconds)

Published: Sun Nov 03 2013