Conversation With Bishop Kallistos Ware

[Music] hello and welcome to illuminations i'm nick fury's today we are quite privileged to have with us the renowned orthodox theologian His grace Bishop kallisto's ware of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Great Britain we will discuss the state of worldwide orthodoxy today as well as several key issues that directly affect the Orthodox faithful here in the Americas thank you your grace for taking time out of your very busy schedule to be with us today your grace your work has helped many people understand better the Orthodox Church in its wonderful tradition and it's quite often recommended reading for someone who would like to convert to our faith what people may not know is your own personal journey to the Orthodox faith could you share with us what led you to the Orthodox faith gladly I was a child of English parents I was brought up in the Anglican Church and I have always very grateful memories of my Anglican upbringing how did I first get to know about orthodoxy I like to mention three steps first when I was at school about 16 years old I happen to go into a bookshop in London and buy a book called the Desert Fathers by Helen Waddell why I bought it I don't remember but it fascinated me I read the texts concerning the early monks in the desert particularly of Egypt nutria and sea etus the VOC known in Greek as the guarantee corn short anecdotes with sharp often paradoxical points I felt here is a world I must know more about that was a first beginning of interest in the Christian East then when I was 17 just before I went out to university one Saturday afternoon in London I happen to go inside a church where I never been before I didn't go planning this in advance I was on a walk I noticed the church felt what is happening inside here there wasn't a proper Church noticeboard outside it was a big 19th century Victorian Gothic building a hot summer afternoon bright sunshine outside but when I went inside the church it was dark and cavernous my first impression was that this church was completely empty I got the impression of a huge expanse of polished floor no pubes then I realized the church wasn't altogether empty well icons a few worshipers close to the icons somewhere out of sight aquire was singing then I noticed the icons green and from behind the icons green a deacon emerged to do a litany and my first impression that the church was completely empty was succeeded by a second impression they won't empty at all it was full full of invisible worshippers unseen presence I felt that we this small congregation had been taken up into an action much greater than ourselves I had a feeling if you like of heaven on earth the presence of the invisible Church of the communion of saints this was in fact the Russian Church in London the only Russian Church at that time and they were having according to the russian pattern the Saturday evening vigil service I didn't understand one word because it was all in slavonic but in a strange way I felt immediately this is for me this is where I belong how is it happens in other ways to in our life so before we know fully about something we are yet convinced that this is where our path lies I wouldn't say I went out of that church consciously wishing to be a member of Orthodoxy but I think really from that moment my future path was decided and I shall not forget this sense first of emptiness and then of fullness when years later I read the account of the conversion of Russian Russians I read how Prince Vladimir of Kiev sent envoy's to Constantinople how they attended the liturgy at st. sofia' how on their return they told Prince Vladimir we didn't know whether we were in heaven or on earth when I read all that years later I started with amazement because in a much humbler way such had been my experience then a third stage two years after that by this time as a student universe studying ancient languages classical Greek and Latin I went for the first time to Greece and my friends said let's go on a tour of the Peloponnese and let's go to Sparta I said why go to Sparta the Spartans went in for gymnastic exercises but they didn't leave any beautiful monuments in fact we were going to see the city of mistre and this made of deep impression on a complete city castle at the top deserted streets but above all I was struck by the churches which there are still many surviving still in useless churches and decorated with frescoes of a very high quality 1415 century the last flowering of the Byzantine Empire and that was my first encounter with Byzantium and that again confirmed my feeling this is where my true home lies but it was the Saturday evening service that was the most important my initial contact with orthodoxy was not through books nor through meeting individual orthodox but through the experience of worship because of my training in classical languages because of my feeling also that i wanted to go back to the sources i didn't in fact join the russian church I joined the Greek diocese in Britain I was received at the Greek Cathedral there but I've always felt nourished both by the spirituality of the Greek patristic tradition and by Russian spirituality and the Russian spirit of prayer I wouldn't want to contrast them when you go to the depths of either tradition you are struck at once by what they have in common so that was my just beginning but I waited for six years from the moment I first entered an Orthodox Church before I was received it wasn't so easy to be Orthodox in Britain then there wasn't a single Orthodox parish at that time which in its Sunday worship used any English at all and the Greek bishop I approached was very cautious but I understand that he didn't want to receive people unless he felt that he could care for them past early your grace it was six years since you first visited the Russian Orthodox Church until you were brought into our faith what did you do to convince yourself that you wanted indeed to be Orthodox so now after I had been that Saturday evening to the Russian Church in London I went up as a student to Oxford there was a small Orthodox community in Oxford so I began going to services there just in a room very few people but I joined an organization more active in Britain than over here the fellowship of sand or bananas and Sergius which was aiming to be a forum where Orthodox and on Orthodox would meet and talk and through the fellowship was enormous and such as I met Orthodox clergy and laity and could talk with them and I began to read I've always loved books so gradually I had both personal meetings with Orthodox and the opportunity to study what struck me when I studied orthodoxy was first of all living tradition here I felt was a church in unbroken continuity from the apostles the martyrs the early father and yet a church which had not just continued the early life in a mechanical way but a church in which tradition was a living thing so unbroken continuity living tradish this was what attracted me I thought many times it's too difficult for a Western person to become Orthodox I better become Roman Catholic but there were many things that attracted me in Roman Catholicism I did not feel the teaching about the Pope was true to the situation in the early church and so I felt no I can't go there but the more I learned about orthodoxy the more I felt this is what I've always believed but I never heard it so well expressed so that was the first thing a sense of living continuty I was also moved by reading about the martyrs of the Orthodox Church not just in the first three centuries but in more recent times I was moved to read about the new martyrs of the Turkish period in the Greek world cause also Arabs Bulgarian Serbs then I was deeply impressed by the story of the great persecution of the Russian Church in the 1920s and 30s and the number of people who had died for their faith the way Christians had stood firm and faith and that moved me very deeply the element of martyrdom the fact that the Orthodox Church had been and still was a suffering and persecuted Church the interesting thing is that and I've heard you speak on this before your grace is that there was a conscience effort on your part to seek out and make sure that this is the place you belonged are we entering an age where one should say I am an Orthodox Christian by choice rather than I am Orthodox Christian because I was born one I myself was born into the Orthodox faith I should I believe go back and greed and figure out for myself why I am what I am do you agree with that I do agree but let me develop the point a little within orthodoxy as we know very well there has been for many centuries a close link between church and nation and in itself that is very precious that we do not think simply in terms of isolated individuals becoming Christian we hope that somehow the whole fabric of society will become influenced by Christian standards and ideals now we know very well that in practice no Christian state has ever been perfect it's always fallen far short of the ideal we mustn't romanticize Byzantium or medieval Serbia medieval Russia but nonetheless the link between Church and nation is a precious one but can that kind of link continue to exist in the modern world and particularly in a secular Western society certainly it can never be enough by itself to simply say I'm Orthodox because I am Greek because I am served because I am rush that's not sufficient and in the modern world it won't work in the past orthodoxy could be an instinct but now it has to be a matter of personal commitment not just an inherited way of life but a way of life that we have chose Orthodox in the West though they may come from the traditional Orthodox countries maybe cradle Orthodox yet nonetheless they've got to live out their orthodoxy in a secular society with very different standards and so they've got to know why they are Orthodox and what orthodoxy stands not just the clergy not just the professional theologians but every layperson every baptized and Kriz mated Orthodox Christian there's got to be a witness for the faith today and after I suppose more and more this is also the case in Greece yes the link between church and nation is still very close in Greece but the same secular influences are working Greece and so as the most perceptive church leaders in Greece are very well aware there's a need for teaching for conscious commitment there as in the West that's I still hope the link between church and nation will continue in the Orthodox lands but we've got to be Christians from the choice of our own heart in a sense we all of us have to be confident the true conversion is to Christ and with all of us in one way or another to be converted to turn to Christ thank you yes changing the subject slightly both your church in Great Britain and our Church here in America is under the jurisdiction of the ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople modern-day Istanbul Turkey what is the role of the ecumenical Patriarchate as leader of worldwide orthodoxy as we approach the 21st century I see the role of the ecumenical Patriarchate to be a center of unity as we know the Orthodox Church is a family of churches and these different member churches the sister churches of the worldwide Orthodox Catholic Communion are each self-governing the ecumenical Patriarchate makes no claim to exercise direct jurisdiction outside its own boundaries but it can serve as a focus and center of unity however it does this not through the exercise of superior power not through coercion but through free consultation I would see the role of the ecumenical patriarch as opening up ways of cooperation suggesting possible means of shared action to the other sister Orthodox churches but they freely agree to work with him in this he does not seek to impose anything on them orthodoxy works on a conciliar principle through sensors so exactly the Ecumenical Patriarch is a center of unity but not in the way that the Pope is we shouldn't try to make the ecumenical Patriarchate into a kind of papers that's contrary to the Orthodox approach the Orthodox approach has as its model the counts first council of all being the church gathered in the upper room on the day of Pentecost many people meeting freely under the guidance of the Holy Spirit so the ecumenical patriarch is the first among the Orthodox hierarchs but he is the elder brother not the ruler so his role is to make suggestions to invite the others to express their fumes to invite them to common meetings so that together in a conciliar way joint means of action throughout the Orthodox world can be worked out now this row is needed today more than ever before in the past where most Orthodox churches were state churches they could survive in comparative isolation communications anyway were difficult today we live in a world where there's instant communication and the far greater need therefore for consultation shared action so I see the ecumenical patriarch as facilitating meeting face to face among the Orthodox he is an animator not an autocrat that would be the way I understand it and from all that I've heard of patriarch athenagoras patriarch Demetrius and our present patriarch bartholomew this would be the way they understand it too I was delighted for example when the present patriarch is all holiness Bartholomew soon after his election invited the heads of the other Orthodox churches to meet at Constantinople and to talk together that seemed to be exactly the role the patriarch of Constantinople is called to do again I'm much impressed by the initiatives taken by patriarch demetrius and now by patriarch bartholomew in the field of ecology the protection of the environment reverence for creation and here of course the patriarchs role extends far beyond the Orthodox world and you need beyond the Christian world but that again seems me the kind of initiative req medical Patriarchate should be take with that with everything you just said in mind these initiatives this elder brother we must realize that there are certain restraints and the atmosphere is not really conducive for the center of worldwide wathah doxy in istanbul turkey in fact it is a Muslim country many have offered their opinion that the ecumenical Patriarchate should move from Constantinople to another part of the world so it may carry out its mission without any restraints your feelings on that your grace let me say two things first if the Patriarchate were to move it would still remain the ecumenical Patriarchate some people have suggested if it moves from the city of Constantinople then it loses its existence I don't see it that way we have interesting parallel from the patriarchate of antioch for many centuries the patriarch of Antioch has not lived in the city and here he's lived in Damascus Antioch indeed is within Turkey Damascus is within Syria so he's living from the point of view of a civil state in another country but no one has ever suggested that this meant that he lost his status as patriarch of Antioch so it is certainly possible for the ecumenical patriarch to move and still to remain ecumenical patriarch then the second thing I hope he will stay at Constantinople as long as he possibly can because he is not just the ecumenical patriarch the spiritual leader within worldwide orthodoxy the elder brother first among equals he is also a local bishop he is Archbishop of the city of Constantinople he has a local flock he has a pastoral responsibility to them if against his will he is forced to leave then he has no choice no alternative but surely as long as he has a choice he will want to be among his people when I've visited Constantinople I have been impressed to see how much of the patriarchs time is spent visiting the parishes and the communities for the divine liturgy for other community events he is very much the pastor of a local flock and long may he continue to be exactly that way amen your grace can we speak about the state of worldwide orthodoxy do we see two different Orthodox realities developing one in the East in traditionally Orthodox lands where almost everyone is of the same faith and of the same ethnicity and one in the West where we have to deal with assimilation the conversion of new members and at the same time a multi-religious environment your thoughts up to a point yes we do however the differences between East and West seem to me to be diminishing that we live in a shrinking world where these kinds of distinction have less meaning than in the past and let me illustrate this let's look at Russia post communist Russia yes the Orthodox Church is the National Church of the Russian land and possibly we shall see in the next few years a strong revival of Russian nationalism closely linked with the Orthodox Church there are actually dangerous hitler'd here for the church but that's one possible scenario but there are in Russia very large numbers people who are not believers at all there is a Protestant community Baptists the evangelicals who date back from the for the revolution there are some Roman Catholics there are now increasing numbers of Protestant missionaries entering Russia and however much the church may feel unhappy about what they're doing they can't be stopped or only to a limited degree so it is unlikely in the future that Russia is going to be simply an orthodox country in the sense it was before 1917 it's going to be increasingly multicultural and there's going to be a diversity on the religious scene even if the Orthodox Church remains the main Christian presence it's not going to be the only one people are going to have a much greater freedom of choice than they had before the revolution and society is going to be more secular so in all these ways I don't think there could be any return to the situation that existed in previous centuries in Russia it's going to be much more similar to what we see in the West Greece has its own path but Greece is going to become in many ways culturally more like the countries of Western Europe many Greeks may regret this but I don't see the process can be stopped it's got to be used creatively we can't just try to hold the passing of time and so again in Greece there's going to be a greater cultural diversity than there was in the Turkic right here or the 19th century kingdom of Greece so I think the order of countries in the East are not going to be exactly as they once were there's going to be a pattern of far greater diversity so in that way I don't see such a strong difference between East and West as for the West though obviously even if there is going to be a closer cooperation among the Orthodox even if there's going to be a move gradually towards local Orthodox churches in the West yet these local churches are never going to have as their members the overwhelming majority of the inhabitants of the land the Orthodox in America are going to remain a minority judging by any human criteria we cannot predict miracles but by any human criteria the Orthodox are going to be a small minority on the American scene so of course that situation is never going to be the same as it was for the Orthodox in the past but it could well be in the future in Greece we shall see an Orthodox Church that is smaller in number that does not have the financial resources of the Church of Greece at the moment that does not have the influence on national life on education that the Greek Church has at the moment it could be a church that would be stronger in personal commitment so perhaps there's going to be a bridging of the gap between East and West and if there is this bridging your grace you mentioned previously there will be choice the church then must educate yes it must it must get out and educate so that these people when there is a choice they will stay if they are Orthodox or in it and if they're not they may come to us and do you agree there must be a movement towards education yes and this exactly fits with what we were saying earlier that orthodoxy cannot be simply an aspect of national identity in future decades and generations it cannot simply be something automatic and instinctive it's got to be conscious and that means a spiritual choice by people but in order to make spiritual choices people have to be instructed and told what I said earlier about the witnesses to orthodoxy being not just a limited number of clergy and theologians but all the baptized faithful that must mean that the faithful must be conscious in their commitment and know what it is they believe and why this is surely very important for example do we Orthodox know Holy Scripture as well as the Protestant Christians we regret the incursions of the Jehovah's Witnesses in Orthodox countries but the Jehovah's Witnesses make their people spend several hours every week studying Scripture our Orthodox people don't know what is in the Bible cause our criteria for scripture study are not those of that you have as witnesses or the Protestants but we need to be informed so education is vital yes that answer your grace brings me to this question on mass communications more specifically electronic media can the Orthodox Church use television as an effective tool for conveying the Orthodox message and do we need to counter the televangelists that are now preaching in traditional Orthodox lands I have very little experience with television I belong to another generation it seems to me however that television can be a means of grace though a certain ascetic discipline is needed for it to be truly so certainly we must use mass media nonetheless I believe as an Orthodox the most important thing will always be direct meeting between persons person to pass a spark is kindled that was how Jesus worked he may have talked for large groups but he chose twelve whom he knew personally whom he spoke to face-to-face that was the way he began to found the church through personal encounter and while we may use the mass media it cannot be a substitute for the personal meeting I believe in my experience that people come to the Christian faith above all through meeting another Christian layperson or priest varies but through talking face-to-face with another purse and then the spark is kindled that is why in our Orthodox tradition we attach so much importance to the spiritual guide the gavel thus targets the spiritual father or Martha guidance can be gained from books it can be gained from television but we need the personal link as well in the second part of that question does the church need to be conscious and combat the televangelists that are in Russia now in Greece do we need to be concerned with it or should we be steadfast in our faith and continue the spark that you just spoke of we will certainly be concerned however let us not become paranoia about it orthodoxy is not negation but affirmation our main concern should not be to combat and refute what others are saying but quietly and firmly to bear witness to what we ourselves believe so let us not get involved in too much confrontation and polemic with the telly evangelists or with anyone else but let us continue with our own work perhaps we shouldn't be too frightened by the daily Evangelist they come it is a seven day wonder they fill stadiums but what happens when they move on what we need and this applies I think equally to the east and to the west what we need is parishes that are on the one side true worshiping communities secondly places where people can find guidance and teaching both educationally and in spiritual guidance places that will be a center for for fellowship and if we have in the river north or country's vital parish life I think people who've been attracted by the televangelists after they've moved on will wonder where should we go and perhaps they'll go to the church down the end of their street and find the answer there so let's continue making the Divine Liturgy of the central heart of everything that's the life-giving source from which everything else comes and let's build on our parishes as Eucharistic centres of course with discussion groups with teaching with social events parishes that are outward looking that welcome people in but if we can have strong parishes in Russia in Greece in England and here in the States living communities of faith and prayer that will be our best witness with the Divine Liturgy being or our source in her inspiration in our the core of our faith it leads me to this next question we face a dilemma here in America in the past the term Greek Orthodox did not mean an Orthodox of Greek origins but an orthodox who shared in the Greek or the Byzantine tradition of the church whether they were Russian or Greek or Serbian how much does orthodoxy Oh to the Greek culture and how much should we hold on to it here in America especially when we are discussing the language issue if I am to be a vibrant church does not the congregation need to understand what's being sung or read that is a great many question yes rolled into one would you care to break them up for me so I try to first of all it's clear when we use the word Greek or Hellenic this can be used in many different senses Byzantium was a Greek Empire in one sense Greek was the language of administration of scholarship it was the cultural tradition of the classical Greek era which was normative in the Byzantine educational system but ethnically Byzantium was multinational Syrians Armenians and many other nations were within the boundaries of the Byzantine Empire so it wasn't Greek in a modern 19 the 20th century nationalist since so we got to be very careful we talk about the Greek fathers and Athanasius was a Greek father wrote in Greek but he was a native Egyptian in his childhood the first language he learned would have been Coptic but that doesn't make him any the less Greek so the word Greek or Hellenic has so many different layers of meaning overlapping we have to allow for that yes let's look at the language issue it seems to me in America today and also in Britain we need to use both Greek and English in the churches that belong to the ecumenical Patriarchate we need to use English as you are doing and we are just beginning to do in Britain for the sake of the younger generation who don't understand Greek but I hope they will always retain some knowledge of their Greek language because that can form a door to so many other things and I hope that therefore we can continue a situation of Greek and English together that seems to be the right way forward the exact proportions depend on the pastoral needs of each parish the priests and parish council in consultation with the bishop have to decide that but to have a bilingual situation is surely the right way forward I wouldn't want to see overnight only English that would be a real loss but some English certainly is obviously necessary and that's no longer a question in dispute in this country in Britain as I say we are about culturally about two generations behind you here so far as the growth of Orthodoxy goes so these things are still in a much earlier stage looking beyond language to the wider significance of the Greek culture here what strikes me is the fact that when we speak of the Greek fathers we are in fact speaking of something that has universal significance and the Slav Orthodox churches with the Romanians and the Arab Orthodox they share this same patristic pouch and in that sense the greek fathers represent something universal in orthodoxy we may ask what about exploring the cultural values of India China the Far East yes in time perhaps we oughta talk swill need to do that I don't think we're ready to embark on that now but for the moment what we can say is that the Greek father's represent the universality of Orthodoxy and the son Basil the Great and Gregory the theologians and John Chrysostom they are the common heritage of all Orthodox whether they are Russians Romanians English Americans or Greeks so in that sense Greek orthodoxy means something Universal it's worth remembering however that the Byzantines did not call themselves Byzantines they did not call themselves Greeks or helens the Byzantines called themselves Romans or may as the Orthodox in Constantinople still do now we can't say that in the West today if we talk about ourselves as being the Roman Patriarchate people will think we mean Roman Catholic but let us not forget that use of Rome a and Romeo scene and I think in some ways that helps to underline the universality of Hellenic civilization in a way that the word Greek does thank you something else that we face here in America is a an orthodoxy that has many jurisdictions one faith many jurisdictions we have the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese we have the OCA the Antiochian Orthodox Church is the faith harmed if we do not achieve organizational unity here in America we have a common faith but we do not have a common organizational unity we have more than one bishop in a city the late patriarch demetrius on his pastoral visit here to america made it very well known that that is against the canons of the church to have more than one bishop in in a city your thoughts on that yes we all know how this situation arose for obvious reasons the first immigrants wished to keep links with their mother country and the strongest way of maintaining those links was through the church therefore it was natural that Greeks should wish to be in touch with the Church of Greece of the ecumenical Patriarchate Arabs with the patriarchate of antioch Russians with Russia Serbs Romanians with their mother churches so the present situation arose for very understandable reasons the links of each Orthodox group with their mother church are to be respect surely they shouldn't be suddenly broken off that's a first fact but then we have to say this present situation cannot be seen as a satisfactory solution it is as you have said appealing to patriarch demetrius uncanonical the canons say one bishop in each city the whole Eucharistic structure of the church presupposes that at the Lord's table all Christians are gathered together regardless of their nationality on a local basis the church is not national or ethnic in its organization it is local and territorial the ecumenical Patriarchate more than a hundred years ago condemned the heresy of Phil it is among the principle of nationality above that of Eucharistic universality so our present situation though it arose for intelligible reasons can only be seen as provisional and transitional what is to be done depends on the local situation in each country what you need in America is not necessary what we need in Western Europe but surely what has to be done is yes there has maintained our links with our mother churches but let us work locally to cooperate first forming into Episcopal committees but then gradually letting the committee grow so that it becomes a real local council but always this must be done in full cooperation with the mother church nothing could be gained by working against organizational unity is important but I think before we have full unification on the level of jurisdictional organization there's a great deal more we can do even now while still being in our distinct ecclesial families we can cooperate on theological education the training of future clergy and that is happening I know the links between some Vladimir's and Holy Cross for example we can cooperate over publications over the translation of services into the English language these things do not have to be done separately by each group we can share our experience locally there can be exchange of visits between pastors between choirs and congregations the so much that can be done Sunday school work hospital work prison visiting if we try to do this separately it becomes hard but if we cooperate a lot of things can be solved in here and now we can be doing all these things let me say another thing sometimes when I travel around the Orthodox world people say why can't we have full jurisdictional unity why doesn't the pan Orthodox conference reach a solution why don't the bishops and the patriarchs settle something it seems to me our unity can't just come from a bar as a kind of miracle for which we've done nothing to prepare if we say why don't our patriarchs provide a solution I don't think they can simply provide a solution like that overnight what we have to do is to prepare at the grassroots level and until we've built up local contacts and local confidence trust and mutual love a solution can't come from above alone solutions got to come up from below this is why so important is that in the same city the Orthodox clergy should meet together in clergy fellowships as they do they often and the parishes should get to know each other I don't think the patriarchs and heads of our churches can offer a solution from above till we've prepared the ground below your grace I would like to hear your opinion on three issues facing the Orthodox Church in America today now these issues might be a coincidence of our living in a multicultural society or because it's just the right time to talk about them the three I would like you to speak on are married bishops the ordination of women and interdenominational marriages we can begin with married bishops yes the restriction of the Episcopal to celibate clergy or widowers this is obviously not a matter of doctrine it is simply a matter of discipline until the sixth century there were married bishops therefore there is no reason in principle why we shouldn't have married bishops again it's clearly not a matter of faith perhaps the first question we would need to ask and it's a question I haven't got an answer for at the moment is why did the church in the 6th and 7th century restrict the Episcopal to unmarried men all those whose wives had died what was the reason then and does that reason apply today that would be a first question we'd have to try and answer and I'm not sure what the answer is clearly if we are going to change our discipline over married bishops this is something that could only be done through pan Orthodox consultation the restriction of the episcopate to the unmarried is something in the legislation ecumenical councils so we need a decision of comparable Authority before we can alter that for myself I have an open mind here I feel very possibly it would be a good thing to have married why do you say that your grace why would it be a good thing often I notice clergy of great gifts who I feel would make excellent bishops and yet they are married clergy so we have to wait till their wives die before they can become bishops why should we do that why could they not become bishops now I'm putting this as a question I'm not claiming that I have the answer but I'd like to know what the answer is it may have been in an earlier era that bishops were unmarried because they had to handle very large funds the charitable institutions in the Byzantine church were largely in the hands of the bishop so he handled enormous amounts of money perhaps it was felt that if he was unmarried there would be less danger of him siphoning off these funds to members of his family but unmarried men are by no means faultless but would that objection apply today when the bishop does not handle the funds on his own when matters are dealt with by committee when accounts are published we live in another world from the sixth century or again in the sixth and seventh century the Byzantine Empire was developing towards not exactly feudalism but something semi-feudal where sons were forced to follow the profession of their father where things tended to be hereditary perhaps it was felt in the church it would not be a good idea that the Episcopal should become hereditary in certain families in fact in the past centuries the parish clergy both in the Greek and the Slav world have tended until this century to be largely hereditary class doesn't matter perhaps on the level of parish priests but on the Episcopal level that wouldn't be good if that was the reason then clearly it's not applicable today again it might be Fiat felt the bishop has to travel travel was very hard in earlier ages the vision might have to be absent from his central city for months on end travelling by donkey through the mountains to outlying parishes perhaps that would not be right that a family man with young children should have had to do that well if that was the reason again that doesn't apply today with modern means of travel I would suggest therefore the question of married bishops is something we might look at with an open mind what are the objections to married bishops what are the advantages ordination of women I am not in favor of the ordination of women to the ministerial priesthood but I am NOT implacably opposed to it either I am not convinced by the arguments that are advanced in current Western debates in favor of the ordination of women I have yet to hear a convincing argument in favor of women priests but I am not convinced by most of the arguments that I hear advanced on the other side I feel that we in the Orthodox Church have not yet given deep and serious consideration to this quest and until we have done so perhaps we should wait and not say it is impossible it is unthinkable simply say this is a question to which the Orthodox Church has not yet given profound and prolonged consideration let us have the humility to say we do not hear - no there is needless to say the argument from tradition for two thousand years the church has existed with a male priesthood if our Lord Jesus Christ had wanted to have women priests would he not have so taught his apostles and would not the Apostles have obeyed do we after 2,000 years have the right to innovate in a matter of such importance the difficulty with this argument is it tells us that there have never been women priests but it doesn't tell us why surely we have to look further and ask if we cannot have women priests there must be some profound reason it's not enough to say it never happened yet so I respect the argument from tradition but I feel we have to go further now the second main argument advanced against women priests is the iconic argument put in its simplest form of course it can be put in a much more sophisticated way put in its simplest form it is the priest represents Christ he is an icon of Christ Christ was male therefore the priest must be male now there are two questions here that arise at once in what sense does the priest represent Christ and secondly what is the theological significance of Christ's maleness as distinct from his humanity now on the first question yes the priest represents Christ but he's not a photographic image of Christ our idea of iconic representation needs to be quite subtle and sensitive and why couldn't a woman represent Christ da are there are not situations and I'm not speaking out of the priesthood but in personal relationships among Christians are there not many situations in experience of all of us where we know of a woman who has mediated the presence of Christ to another person so why can't women represent Christ so that's the first area that needs to be thoroughly explored what we mean by the priest as an icon of Christ but then there is the further question yes Christ was male but in the Creed we say that he became Hulme any in throw pisa we don't say he became a near a male we say he became a human being and the father's constantly emphasized the humanity of Christ that he had the total undiminished fullness of human nature but hardly ever do the father's attach a specific importance to the maleness of Christ as distinct from his humanity and this is not mentioned in the Creed the argument that the priest must be male because he represents Christ and Christ was male is in fact a new argument you cannot find that in patristic tradition I would defy anybody to show me any Greek father who argues at length and as a point of principle that the priest has to be male because Christ was male now the fact that something is new doesn't as you mean it's wrong but let us recognize that this is not not and from Holy Tradition something we've come up with in the last few years we I mean not just the Orthodox but Christians generally so here is a huge area for explanation behind all this there's a bigger question how do we understand theologically and spiritually the difference between man and woman is it something limited simply to the functions of procreation to the conceiving and bearing of children or is the difference of sexuality much more profound do men and women have different ways of relating to each other unto God different ways of understanding and interpreting we have here a basic question in Christian anthropology have we Orthodox looked at this with an open mind in a serious way so far I'm not sure that we have and I'm not sure that we can answer the question of women priests until we've done a great deal of homework my feeling then is there there's a deep mystery here in the question of the service of men and women in the church a deep mystery hidden within orthodoxy but not yet made explicit let us continue explore but let us not say it is a closed question let us say we are searching for further light with the help of the Holy Spirit interdenominational marriages they are going to happen this thing we can't stop them they are happening it's inevitable as my we move from an immigrant generation a closely knit community to a generation born and brought up in the country that the new generation will make wide contacts and will marry outside the faith outside the national culture we may wish that it wasn't so but we've got to accept the inevitable reality there's nothing peculiar to orthodoxy about this problem all religious groups face it when I talk with my friends who are Jewish rabbis they have exactly the same questions the first point of crucial importance to me is that we should respect the freedom of individual conscience and of personal choice that we should not bully people or blackmail them that we should respect their personal freedom and integrity if two young people fall in love is it for us the clergy to say you shouldn't marry you shouldn't have fallen in love I don't think we have the authority to say that and we should be very cautious about what conditions we impose because when people are in love and want to marry they are vulnerable they will make promises but we shouldn't demand promises from people when they're in a vulnerable state which we know perfectly well they're unlikely to keep I feel then that this is a matter to be handled with the utmost pastoral gentleness of course we are right to insist that there should be a marriage in the Orthodox Church but I hope we would not exclude the possibility that they may also have a ceremony in the Church of the other part so that the marriage has been blessed in both traditions we also should not behave towards other Christians as if they simply didn't exist it's not a question of what ceremony is valid but then we respect the religious convictions of both sides but we would be right to say we certainly want you to have an Orthodox wedding again I feel over the upbringing of children the parish priest should offer every encouragement for the cattle to bring up their children in orthodoxy but I don't think we should threaten or demand promises we should say to the parents in the end this is a matter for your own conscience how you'll bring your children on we will help you we will support you but you must decide as parents in your own conscience before God I hope that doesn't sound excessively liberal it brings us back to a point previously made we become Orthodox when we it's a matter of choice do not impose it study it feel it live it become it and then and your lives will be fulfilled we often here in America hear to questions posed at us are you saved have you found Christ how should I as an Orthodox Christian respond to those two questions yes I as an Orthodox Bishop get asked those questions sometime have you been safe if I am asked are you saved I hesitate to answer categorically yes I am saved as if or something complete fixed and such I prefer to answer using the continuous present I trust that by the grace and mercy of God I am being saved that is to say salvation for me is not just a single event in the past salvation is a living process a life a process that is going on and is not yet complete sunt Paul longer phrase experience of meeting Christ on the road to Damascus says in one of his epistles I am afraid lest after preaching to others I may myself be rejected he had the fear that he might fall away Christ is faithful he does not change and it is his will to save us but we humans have freedom and Christ doesn't take away then we have the freedom to say yes with God's grace supporting us but we have the freedom to turn away and say no and up to the hour of death that freedom is not taken away so that is why I prefer to answer I pray and hope that I am being saved but I know that I am a sinner I know that I am weak I pray that I may stand for but the future is unknown so I must remain always between fear and hope up to the gates of death have you found Christ how I found Christ in a way I'd want to reverse that what matters is not me finding Christ but Christ finding me and I believe that Christ has found yes this he has I have heard your grace referred to our faith as a hidden treasure hmm is orthodoxy today still a hidden treasure it is still a hidden treasure in sense that enormous numbers of people still have no idea what orthodoxy really stands orthodoxy tends to mean clergy with beards in strange hats enormous times of people just have a dear my dear of the folklore of orthodoxy but if its inner meaning as life in Christ they know too little and we Orthodox don't always help we are not always very good at sharing our faith with other people we are too defensive about it of course I'm not advocating a brash proselytism but we should be much more ready than we are to share so in that sense yes orthodoxy is hidden but it's not nearly as hidden as it was 20 30 years ago and I'm encouraged the developments I see in Western Europe and here in America but were still only just at the beginning I would say all too often in the past orthodoxy has been not just a hidden treasure but a sphinx people ask questions and we don't answer we just remain silent or we are a little I hope we are becoming less sphinx light but the true meaning of the Christian faith that will always be a hidden treasure to the world using the term world in the sense that it's used in some John's Gospel we cannot reduce Christianity to a few simple statements which everyone can immediately understand to understand the truth of Christianity and for me the Orthodox faith is the fullness of Christianity everyone has to undergo a change of heart we cannot understand just through words through sentences the true understanding has to be through the heart so there is a sense in which for large numbers of people the true Orthodox Christian faith will remain hidden treasure up to the end we have to seek and find we mustn't try to reduce orthodoxy to a simple bare minimum the richness and depth of our fellowship in Christ requires constant discovery right through our lifetime for every one of us the folders of the treasure is still in some measure here finally your grace do you have any words for the Orthodox faithful of America since you have traveled here you're not here very often I'm sure many would would like a few words from you to them what is deeply important is first that we should read and know Holy Scripture and the Gospels we should be in that sense gospel Christians truly evangelical knowing the word of Christ in the Gospels and then next to scripture it is supremely important that we should know the lives of the saints that the Saints should be our personal friends there's such variety in the communion of saints let us get to know the saints individually to value them for the unique distinctiveness found in each one those Saints who speak perhaps most to our age are the ones who showed humble love and practical compassion and I hope we may take those as our models and I'm thinking of people like some john chrysostom who are certainly a fiery preacher denouncing those in power when they went astray but who showed a living love for the poor I'm thinking in more recent times of such a figure as [Music] sincere of him of sorrow of in the Russian tradition Oh Saint Nektarios Aegina in the Greek tradition people of humble love some are like some john of kronstadt a parish priest completely dedicated to his people with his life centered on the liturgy caring for the sick and the poor or among the people whom i've known Cinelli the russian bishop john of san francisco's and john maximovich who again showed humble love compassion for others i think this is the kind of Orthodoxy we want and orthodox it is cannot ik generous that doesn't condemn but bears a peaceful firm witness in a positive way an orthodoxy that is committed to serving others those who are disabled who are suffering who are marginalized by society those are the people that we orthodox should be open to and going out to serve so that's the kind of Orthodoxy in the West that I pray to God we may have again your grace we thank you for taking time out of your schedule to be with us we wish you continued success he spotlighted s but thank you for your questions [Music] [Applause] [Music]

Channel: GreekOrthodoxChurch

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Keywords: Conversation, With, Bishop, Kallistas, Ware

Id: pxatVu5Qi3k

Length: 79min 4sec (4744 seconds)

Published: Tue Nov 06 2012