should you get a Cisco certification? CCNA? CCNP? // A DEBATE (feat. the Packet Thrower)

[Music] [Applause] [Applause] hey what's going on guys welcome back to network chuck today we're talking about Cisco certifications are they still worth it now I'm saying this kind of on the I'm debating somebody today I'll introduce him in a second but I'm kind of on the I think they may be getting to that point where they're maybe not as valuable as they used to be now I I want them to be valuable I'm hoping I'm wrong in fact I'm coming at this like please prove me wrong because I love Cisco certifications but as I look at things as I look at the new recent exams ange as I'm like man I don't know and you know for my last dream I said if I if I started over an IT what path would I choose and I kind of detailed that out for you it was various Cisco light I even said CCNA was optional so where does that leave me or does it leave the industry and you know what I could be wrong I hope I'm wrong so let's let's talk about this so I've got on the channel today mr. packet thrower respect thrower say hello Oh long time no chat yeah it's been a while we I think we talked cash back engine yeah January isn't like that but if you guys don't know who the pack throw risk he has every certification so if you name one he probably has it any vendor not kidding and he helped todd lammle right his see seen a book he does video courses any you you moderate the CCNA read it am I correct in that yeah and also the discord and the discord so yeah he's he's all Cisco all the time but he's also everything else all the time so he's a perfect person to talk about talk to you about this so Don I'm gonna throw this out real quick his name's Don by the way if I throw you off with half the new CCNA we'll start with that not real quick guys I want I just want to tell you this if you're studying for your CCNA ccnp or whatever keep going like whatever we say here what you're doing is still valuable and you will talk about what will uncover that stuff but don't as when you start you off right now don't be discouraged what you're doing is the right thing a good thing it still holds value but we're gonna kind of dive deep into maybe what the future holds for certifications so done mister packet thrower I don't like the new CCNA but I know you'd like it I'll kind of give you my gripes for it I think it's too wide I think it's basically the network plus now and I think it's it was boring I almost fell asleep during the exam and there's no more simulations like it's not even fun anymore so while I think them from the UH pure marketing perspective the eye looks look have a comment on the screen here I have my wife mutterings just threw it up there I'll answer that here in a moment from a pure marketing perspective I think a CCNA still holds value but from a Content perspective I'm like gosh I don't know about that I'll go and answer that super chat we have on here from Alex trad since taking CCNA CCNP they took out proof of work by removing Sims thoughts on this perfect super chap because it's exactly what I'm talking about so Don what do you think about the CCNA all right well first of all have you seen how wide the network pluses these days like they have everything from storage networking to MDM to cloud to so that is the definition of an inch deep mile walk kind of test now as far as some simulations go I mean I know like Jeremy would not quite like the simulations but they were always flawed because the way the simulations were built you had to they basically had they had to fake interface using like Adobe Flash for lack of better words oh yeah it wasn't perfect I'll give you that but something it was something but it was here's my problem with it it was something but it was always a very simple answer at the end of the day because they couldn't do anything more complex and they were worth a lot of points there so if you were doing bad on the test and you passed a couple Sims you just might pass the CCNA but you're not really that great of a cease knave and today the new one it is more interested in targeting operational differences are as in hey we just brought up this voting protocol how was this routing table going to change and you it might not say what command you need to type for this but it makes sure you understand that pay this is what's gonna happen and this is the change that's gonna happen based on this changer so it's a lot more real world a lot more practical and because they're all the points are basically the same there you can't get by on a few easy questions I'll give you that like there were at times where simulations could be kind of easy like you could logic your way through it even if you didn't study very hard but again I think they took away the joy that you would normally feel when they took away the Sims and and this isn't just CCNA I mean we're talking like the NP level stuff - I loved this is the CCT route switch and troubleshoot like those were fun exams cuz the simulations were I think pretty good but they're gone now when they I mean there's always people complaining on rightly or wrongly that their assimilation bugged out and Cisco's the worse for it so I haven't personally to misuse but to be fair I mean I I personally thought they were gonna go a different direction I thought they're going to integrate CML or viral to into it and they still might down the road but I always tell people on the C sneer edits you got to be careful you wish for right because it's fun to say you know it'd be great if had a real router to configure but if cisco has a reliable router you can configure they can get really evil on their simulations there and just say hey basically it fully configured this branch and that's after your test there so there's always a mix between theory and practicality in these exams like you can't just do a CCI you lab and scale it down to CCNA and say okay you're a junior now yeah I get that and there yeah there's practicality like CCNA is one of the most popular IT certification so to do something like the CCIE at a scale that large would be impossible yet you and I have both taken as your certifications and those things I mean I think we both agree are pretty fun because they are very real-world you're actually doing stuff in their portal yeah well I think I told you about my expert extra experience last time there but yeah those uh certainly an interesting six hours and I think I think IT certification exams should excel like they should change in advance in technology and I feel like Cisco took a couple steps back and I'm like well guys you're you're basically a software company I mean they are now they write software that's their main thing why not rate write a great certification exam they're charging us a lot of money yes oh no they're gonna make us write the exam questions that's how you get credit to get to renew your certification well that's I mean that's that's then throwing you a bone rather than saying you have to write the test there I mean you could also do courses and you can also make content like idea whatnot but you gotta I mean that if you look at the CCNA like they're for every one person who says that oh I hate the CCA now there's another person says oh I hit it the ccr and ask us who cares my routing and switching and stuff ah who cares for di gr P so basically what they did is they ripped it down to the essence because they don't want it to be R and s exam they wanted to be a common exam added Wireless and added a controller for Sdn and when you're teaching Sdn you need something practical so DNA a sent to make sense and they introduced automation so in terms of a juniors hurt I mean you can run a basic router you can run a basic switch you can add a wireless network and you won't be confused if you have DNA Center on the job so it's pretty good a pretty good foot in the door is it gonna be everything no but it's also not gonna be 400 question tests right right so I mean I'll give you that so in your opinion do you think the CCNA content-wise is just as strong as the previous CCNA yeah and the biggest reason why is not so much the content it's the number of questions they ask so before they asked you about 50 questions per test and there would always be these topics there like say IP version sakes where you might not actually get an IP version 6 question on the test there and yeah and it was to the point there where during the way Cisco bounces things around if enough people are saying oh I didn't have IP version sakes he could probably just skip that section of the test and I mean you're taking a gamble but you'd be fine there now with a hundred questions or more they test every single topic on the exam so now why you can't say I'm just gonna stop bother reading the infrastructure maintenance section because I know I'm going to pass if you do that you're probably gonna fail because they will touch on every little thing there well I'll give you that so it's I think it's harder to brain dump these exams now because there are so many stinking questions and we don't even know how often they're going to uh to rotate those suckers in so it's a lot harder to brain dump it now which I appreciate that yeah I'm told they are updating it quite rapidly and I have no real way knowing but I'll take the word on it especially people are getting a credit for writing questions yeah yeah it's true man and that's the other part I want to talk about too is you know Cisco for the line we got super chat on the on the a chat on the screen here past in network plus already studying for CCNA now aside from the HR credit the cert is there any other reason to get it I guess we can answer that real quick before I go into my next thing so yeah go ahead go ahead net plus is I'm trying to be polite but worthless it is the best place use kiss for a net plus is if you're a non-technical role like a manager or project manager and you just want to understand what that always be up thing because no Plex is fine but when you compare the Net+ to the CCNA there's no practicality it drags you in a million directions there where you just read about something for a sentence and as you learned a topic and there's no real value in it and I say this isn't pretty much every time I do these kind of things there is no HR filter it's it's not what people generally think it is it's a it's your resume sorted by some kind of HR solution and then the team typically picks who they're interviewing there you're not trying to trick the HR cat lady well I would say that's that's probably true a lot of the time like you work for a larger company that you guys probably get some resumes I mean resumes all the time you probably outsource your HR stuff a lot and they sort things for you my correcting saying that yeah I mean I checked the job posting the other day on our company and we have some like 60 postings so uh like we're continuously hiring and there's always that kind of thing there and I've worked in a lot of different clients and I typically help clients with hiring due to being a trusted advisor kind of thing and I've seen how it works in a lot of different industries whatnot there and you're not trying it doesn't really make sense where the HR lady doesn't know how to use her computer says okay I'm gonna up find a demo ops engineer right right okay okay so to answer Zachary's question he has the net plus which means he has some networking knowledge you learn some subnetting he learned with that OSPF thing one I will think about net plus okay off is you get subnetting out of the way and subnetting is traditionally the hardest for a junior to learn right now to get that you're gonna have a lot easier time jumping into the other topics now do you so to answer his question would you I mean obviously if he wants to go down the network engineer path CCNA is clear winner but if maybe he's going for cloud stuff maybe if he's going in another direction that's might maybe not networking specific would the CCNA be a good next step CCNA is recognized for pretty much every IT industry for a junior level like a cloud ton of networking systems you Bailey is usually recognized the value of it various other roles you can't really go wrong with a CCNA can even get you like a tech support job in place of a like an A+ or anything like that there because typically those kind of jobs just want you to see that you have any kind of cert not not that the A+ itself or the CompTIA trifecta valuable it's just that they want you to see you have something that's difficult okay gotcha gotcha so you would say yeah get the CCNA even if y'all ready have Network+ because you want to have that that cred badly a network role will almost certainly not hire just a network plus person because what a network plus is and I say this a lot is I understand what OSPF is but I don't have a clue how to use it okay okay so I'll be I'm actually taking the network plus here soon because I haven't taken it in a while and I'm gonna I want to do like a video time talking about comparing it so this does help me a little bit but yeah that's interesting so exactly I hope we answered your question there so I'll dive right into what I think is probably the thing I hate the most about the new certification route is that the certifications are so wide and varied now and I think we talked to us before but I mean you can get your CCNP enterprise cool but then you have to ask what kind of CCNP enterprise are you are you wireless are you automation I mean you can be anything and not have any of the other information or knowledge it's confusing and I think the strongest point of certifications is that they can be marketing marketed great for you like they can put your resume at the top of a list if you have a great certification but now it's kind of its kind of confusing and just before the stream I did a search like are people actually looking for ccmp enterprise right now and then how do they list those job searches and I found like a few and I was searching like the cross I didn't put location in just any location and I think the way they put it now is where did I see it ccnp enterprise with one network wireless concentration or CW MP or whatever this is a wireless job so they're starting to be able to search for these things but I think it's just muddy and confusing do you think the new certification tracks are making it confusing for people well you have to look at what a ccmp traditionally is right like ccmp is not a junior search it's you're supposed to work in the field but you're interested in your CSUN key and for at least a year you're getting good hands-on and then you're gonna start working on like you're supposed to take up a couple years before you actually become a CCMP and the proper way of doing things beforehand and if you look alikes a CCP security while you had to learn fire power you had to learn ice you have to learn ESA WS a yet VPNs you have to learn a bunch of stuff there and it's arguably a lot harder I mean it's fine for me because I work on all that stuff there but if you're just a firewall guy who just wants to make VPNs and you're the best BPM person ever maybe you don't wanna deal with learning what cisco ESA is for you email security like so it gives you a lot more flexibility and it also gives you one example is or exam so anytime you write a Cisco exam now you get a credential as opposed to I have to write four exams to get my CCP data center and I could take a year doing that and during that time I can't put ccp data center elegantly in my resume but you can say hey I passed the ACI test and there you go so it gives you a bit more flexibility that way and I'd argue it's a trade-off I mean you're not gonna have on the surface as much of a superstar like you know like hey this guy knows everything cisco security is this ECP security but you will have an easier point of entry there because it's more feasible for a more specialist kind of person to focus in and you can always dabble what you want there it's kind of like what Microsoft did with the platform certification the MCSE platform yeah yeah yeah so uh basically the idea is you have your base and then you just once a year you can add to that base with Cisco there if you're a partner you probably want to do more specialist kind of stuff but otherwise you just pick what you want to go from there as for job postings I mean job postings are always slow to react like Microsoft tried to change mcse to ms DST back in the day and after a year or so they got frustrated and put it back to MCSE because all the recruiters just kept asking for MCSE ever I got confused so yeah recruiters are like I said before that there is no HR filter but there is a recruiter filter and the recruiters are typical a doubt the how do I say about being assaulting not the smartest people in the world and well they're not as technical as we are let's Plus be nicer with it they are less adaptive to change how's that and so there is an issue with that kind of thing but what I would say is CCMP is I think it's a better spot now that doesn't mean that Cisco's gonna keep this system they might in a year or two say okay well that was fun what's either make a new track like CCIP or something and that's gonna be the guy with like three specialists sirs kind of like the rivet head shirt and then or maybe able to keep it the way it is but it's an experiment to me and all the vendors are experimenting like Microsoft just restructured all their certs Cisco does restructure their certs pretty much everyone is trying different ways of shaking it up yeah so I think that kind of bleeds in some like my next problem with this is that um every certification is almost like pretty good now like we were just talking before about one vendor we'll get into that here in a moment but I feel like Cisco maybe isn't the top of the game anymore on cert content insert cert depth and I'll tell you what I mean by that like like right now shops don't only have cisco anymore if you're if you're an IT I mean we used to have just you know yeah we're a Cisco shop like a Cisco stuff now it's so wide and varied and now network engineers are are not just doing Cisco stuff they're doing maybe Aruba for Dannette Palo Alto maybe they're doing cloud stuff AWS a sure so their skills are so wide and varied so I don't know I feel like going down that the specific Cisco path is almost losing a little bit of value because there's so many areas you have to look at now they there'd be more value in getting Linux certifications more value in getting a Python stuff and I don't even get me started on the definite associate stuff like I think there's more value in doing that I don't know what do you think on that well I think the foundation that CCNA provides is or the Cisco surge is precisely why it's a most valuable because if you look at say okay well I want to do networking with and we'll talk about them in a minute with rubra and we want to do firewalls with Palo Alto we want to do automation with puppet and you do all this piecemeal stuff there you're for one you're gonna have a really fractured fund foundation because every vendor does their own thing and they have their own limitations whatnot Cisco lease gives you the end-to-end story for most of the solutions and to its you're gonna have a really hard time like learning say Palo Alto cert because for the most part like you can go by my CSUN a bouquet or taught a nice book you can buy a harness plug shameless plug cap and you know you're pretty good there but there is no Palo Alto book the HP books are made by HP Press and you took they have to buy them directly from HP like checkpoint there's basically have to go for training like up all these different random vendors they they don't have like the west by book store install a packet tracer because there is no Beca trees are for non Cisco products Cisco's the only one that's broad enough to make it easy to learn that there so I would say that once you get past the CCNA there you start getting into one a danger because the more certs you do the more you have to back up in the interview and that's really hard if you don't have it I got up so if you do like your Palo Alto junior and you do your Reuben and you do your whatever other certification you're and then I sit you down and say okay well how do you just said Palo Alto you can't really go oh whoa I did that a year ago they're right I don't remember that anymore like so it's a it's a lot harder to keep straight they're not only for for learning but also for laughing because like Palo Alto they don't offer like a trial for their virtual firewall you have to buy a license or you have to do an azure instance or something so it's a lot less flexible there whereas like cisco has like CML or whatnot there where you can learn not everything but you can learn a fair amount of what they have and you can build off it so I mean if you can learn networking really well Francisco you can walk to whatever vendor you want that similar like juniper and you won't have a hard time learning to Juniper if you're really solid CCNA but that's just greedy they're like that's true like cisco did set the standard for a long time on network certifications so like pretty much everyone copied them for the most part and if you get your CCNA you're right you can you can switch to juniper you can switch to whatever maybe Huawei I don't know if always similar never used Huawei have used Huawei before I'm not surprised actually and a funny story there I was when I was a mobility engineer for I rolled out through G for Roberta and 3g of the seller and they basically shipped a team directly from China there to work on this project and they were like call me at 3:00 a.m. every day like and anyway is a tragic experience but hallway I don't have a lot to say or nice to say what hallway but I do appreciate their free back up to China feature I imagine it that would be one of their first features they implement so I want to just touch base real quick with everyone watching CCNA I agree with raw are done on this that almost got you robbed mr. packer thrower I agree that the CCNA is a crazy valuable certification because it's been valuable for a very long time my dog in this fight that I'm bringing to this debate is that I think what it's what's happened to its most recent revision made the exam less fun and I think in my opinion I think it's a bit more too wide I miss the routing and switching I'll miss that it was that specific I missed that they had specific roles at the associate level I feel like going straight to CC and P level I don't know I just I feel like it devalue the CC and P and also removed a lot of opportunity for people to get that basic understanding at that associate level but anyways but to encourage you guys going for your CCNA it's still crazy value but we put your CCNA on your resume you're gonna be extremely extremely valuable I got links below to get you started on that by the way and also I'll throw mr. packet throwers book in the description when I when we finished this call so now you wrote that with Esther todd lammle no if you want to talk about the tracks for a minute the CCNA tracks were very deeply misunderstood by a lot of people and you could argue that they weren't implemented very well across the board like the tracks were aside from the RNs were really meant to start after year round CC and P level for RNs and they because of that there's a lot of real gaps and people were confused and and there was other issues there like the CCNA security book was a bit of a disaster because they wrote it and then they dropped their IPs and went firepower like the next day then they did a rapid update but Pearson didn't want Pearson didn't want to push out an update so that was a broken uh-oh SEO official study guide and then like there's other tracks there were they didn't even have books he could buy there because like there was no service provider book for example Wireless was always out to date because the nature of wireless so the tracks themselves I mean they were really meant to be like I'm gonna do this to start my season V journey and like but it was meant to be like I'm starting like one week CCNA and next week CCMP not like I have a CCNA security give me a job okay well may I I kind of saw it as like the security plus version for network engineers in which I loved it was security with a network flare is that initial it's like I saw it as if I got my CCNA right I didn't have to go and get my security plus to understand some security stuff I can get CCNA security and I knew a lot of networking stuff so it actually helped me to get that certification I love that same for the wireless aisle same for the voice stuff and then collaboration and that's just my preference I miss the associate level track because the specialist exams this is in the CCNA at least I remind you it is it is [Music] yeah it's okay oh so this is actually good segue so I have to write a bunch of aruba certs for my business and I'm doing the Aruba version of the CC and h8 actually and pretty much right after this call and basically when I was reading the study book I thought Paltrow's I see yeah Cisco just copied the Aruba CCNA for that update like it has almost exactly the same topics there it has your VLANs obviously it has your STP obviously it has your OS PFS only brought in protocol it has Wireless and it has controllers that would except for its air wave instead of DNA Center so except for the automation piece cisco basically said hey rube is getting away with this so we're gonna do that too because we won't wireless on their exam that's pretty funny and you know it's usually is people copying Cisco but maybe maybe I don't see that part works just go copy someone else maybe everyone's copying each other I don't know oh that is interesting though that aruba was already out in front with that and cisco came in behind them and did the same thing I think wasn't a Juniper that already had some pretty cool stuff with their and their DevOps certifications they were already way ahead of Cisco with the deafness I I think they beat Cisco by a few months but we don't really know when these things were announced and these people talk to each other so someone was probably having lunch with the Cisco guys working on the dead nester he's like oh I'll show you exactly how I see it now speaking of automation last week I I kind of said that no I didn't kind of say I did say it I think network automation will be a thing of the past for network engineers within the next 10 to 20 years and what I mean by saying that is I think automation will be point-and-click it'll be tools like DNA Center which is already out and people use it now it'll be tools like that that are click I want to automate this click I want to automate this it won't be us learning Python or scripting it's just gonna be okay I understand OSPF this tool can automate that process what do you think about that well I mean you're right that existing tools are going to get better but there's always something that pops out along the road they're like just guess we have super St and 10 years from now or whatever they're going to call it that doesn't mean that there's not the frameworks for mega Sdn that we have to learn super if we're a robot Python or whatever they're gonna call it to do it there maybe I'll go really retro bachelor and like COBOL and or something like a circular loop but I agree with you they're like III know like especially in your job because you work for a bunch of companies and it's your job to be like putting in all these new things especially as a if someone who works with many many companies you can use automation to do mass deployments like you do and have great templates but for most companies that have on that have engineers on staff they're not gonna want them to start tinkering with Python and just suddenly putting scripts into their network that could possibly break because they're not programmers yeah but people don't want that now I got I mean I let's be clear here if you're like a network junior and you just want to impress the boss there don't do it by writing a Python script without permission like you don't want that security team finding or like oh you stored all the network words in this text file did you and oh you had a typo when you accidentally took down 100 routers so that's hilarious like you don't have those kind of conversations but generally speaking scripting will always be if you have like I actually did a lecture with Todd I'm Lee's class two weeks ago I went over automation topics for CCNA and it's great point out like hey this is really cool I push this configuration but hey guys I just wrote sixty lines to push six lines of configuration there what do you think it takes the most time here like so you gotta have your balance so if you find yourself doing those six lines every single day then maybe there's value when putting in an automation script kind of thing there but you gotta use your discretion and likewise if someone buys DNA center or SolarWinds or whatever for NCM you don't need to learn a python script because guess what those tools have your own version of pushing configuration and why go against the grain but it's sad yeah I mean there's always gonna be opportunities for improving your workflow whatever that looks like and there's always gonna be emergent technologies there like just when you think that Oh ants was really cool and they say oh no nor near is the way to go and then to go on or near that's best for children and that was this and like or a terraform is so great and they're like yeah like you can't do it in Python so now we have this solution and so I mean the devops world has kind of things pop up they take hold they implode they build up again like it's it's gotta take a while for mainstream there I mean like seems like every other day Cisco's releasing a new automation tool they're like their new one is for what they call the Action Center where they can work a straight really big jobs across all different domains and it's like I don't see their I mean eventually I mean are we gonna get to the point there where you need to log into a router and like I mean we already have router stay with no command line like there are like Facebook uses restful api for everything yeah and like you got like things like ubiquity I mean ubiquity obviously is not Cisco caliber but they could be and it's all point and clicked I I'm talking to you baby at one time like god I mean uh if Meraki decided that hey we're gonna be we want to be more of a enterprise i replacement i mean they could spend development time and add more features and stuff but obviously at cisco just want to cut off its notice despite its pace right now but it's uh oh no i mean there's always a given poll and like a lot of these ideas like we tried them at one point in the past then we backed away from them in just like cloud everyone went to cloud and then they caught the bill and they're like you know maybe we don't want to be in the cloud anymore maybe we need to do cost reduction and have hyper clouds because apparently it costs a million a month there and we didn't realized we were paying that when we had a data center so we're I don't want to be responsible for that bill well let me ask you this question so we're talking about Cisco certifications and are they still valuable and they obviously are and they will be for a while but you as someone who has your hey you had your hands in so many different areas NIT all the time from cloud storage to all kinds of stuff and we started over an IT today yeah I want to see the same question ask myself last week if you started over from scratch like you're at zero right now let's say you're a plumber or something I don't know and you are changing careers what certification path would you choose and and I'm not saying like oh how old would get you to be a network engineer faster and I want to know from your vast knowledge of IT what would be the most valuable path for you to make the most money at the fastest well I want to do CompTIA again that's for sure oh hush no I would say it's the CCNA is a good groundwork there that that definitely had a massive impact of my career and it's still and if I was brand new I mean it offers just knepper it comes there where you go he had that ansible thing in Donald's book was really good I want to try that out him and you go build from there and it's a decent framework Amina cert is not meant to be not meant to be I know everything about this thing it's a shorthand for saying hey this guy knows at least this much about these topics yeah and it's a great framework for someone who knows nothing about nothing then even know what to study it's a great framework then they just get started it's a good framework because what happens if you don't have a cert is let's say you have your company only runs I don't know rip and you're perfectly happy at that company well you're never gonna learn anything out of the RIP and then one at times for you to move on that company you're gonna be like what's this OSPF I don't get it so yeah so sir-sir meant to take you a bit out of your comfort zone and to force you to learn things they're like I know VTP is a really hated topic like Odin hates and whatnot and but if it was up to them and with their teaching or they'd probably say like you're not learning that protocol but throughout he is I mean so used by 80% of businesses it's a and you the fact that they force you to learn it or a DTP no one uses DDP like you no no no I know it's DDP but shouldn't be a thing anymore well it shouldn't but the thing is you can encounter DDP and if you're a sea snake you go oh that's what that negotiated means that's why it's just happening yeah so CCNA and then where would you go like would you still become a network engineer at this point I mean cuz obviously you have a lean towards it because you love it but as far as like value money opportunity future proofing yourself where would you go after CCNA well I mean the value is definitely there I mean I spent I wrote 12 statements of work this week alone for business for various network projects like things aren't slowing down at all and like the thing about like colleges as a result of them pushing everyone to cybersecurity because a looks cool no one's really interested it does look cool at the plant but but the problem is that they pushed everyone to this cool thing there and that's his own little problem there because the other industry isn't really hiring that much and they don't really want to and yours but by the side for that no one's really learning the brick-and-mortar staff there so we're all desperate for like proper CCNA or CCP who can do it they're like it's really hard for me to find seniors or whatnot to try and go for that Oh when we do that kind of side of it or when we add to the team or at least think about adding to the team and it's like up yeah it's uh it's definitely uh it's gonna it's a cert that's not gonna hurt you for one and it's probably gonna help you so I mean I love what you're staying here because yeah when you look online when you google around when you search it doesn't seem like what you're saying is true but you're you're on the frontlines and I know what you're saying is true so I've it's not been very long since I was actually and a similar role to you so yeah networking is still crazy valuable it's still a crazy awesome thing to get into and make a lot of money in and it's good to hear that it's hard to find good people it really is so if you choose that path go for it yeah whatever path like they all want people like a video on system and you'll probably be a bit more cranky and you won't have as good of an alcoholic taste but you know what you'll get a job I mean those people have to work with backups there so they go more for like the motorway all kind of drinks like via they really need to get blackout drunk but but whatever field I mean wow would you get on cloud be like the most valuable choice for you I think cloud is like I think that's that's so hot right now I'm a big advocate for foundations right so oh yeah yeah we need that so CCNA gets us there we go yeah CJ gets you at least on the path for foundations it doesn't learn teach you everything you need but it should at least teach you okay I learned the CCNA and I can expand on it like you know you say hey I want to dhp sir for my lab and then next thing you know you're building a Windows server and then you're building a VM so yeah in theory puts you on the path if you're that kind of person and but I think the bigger thing is people gotta I've realized that a lot of these careers our journey is not just like I want to be a cloud guy right away like you have to you're probably not gonna go one very far if you just ride masters hurt and you say like okay hire me as your as your guy they're gonna be like yeah but I buy it if you work up to it and you do your network role and maybe do a systems role so you get that side of it ten then by the time you're in the cloud position there you're a lot stronger than a lot of the competition at that point because you can handle both sides of the cloud you can handle parts of migration and you understand like okay well it's just a virtual machine in the cloud I already understand a very small machines because I know VMware it all kind of ties together yeah that's what I always tell people in its that's what's surprising is like when I first started studying cloud and I relied a lot on my my history as a dealt with systems I've doubled vm's I dealt with networking that I'm like oh yeah I know what that is it might be called a different service up there but it's the same thing and if you come I can't imagine come to the cloud cold like I just got my a plus I'm gonna go learn AWS now you're gonna have a hard time because you're you haven't worked with X which is why it's funny the A+ has cloud topics yeah it is it is unlike the cloud plus like no yeah it's it's interesting and I think you should have a base understanding of like cloud like operational verse expenditure what is it you know you should you should understand what it is so you don't sound stupid with you laughs key about it but yeah you have - I think getting your CCNA so you know the networking side when you get to the cloud getting some I mean gosh Microsoft is kind of screwing up their certifications now but yeah getting some kind of solid Microsoft cert on the server side I don't know how do you feel about VMware certifications do you still think that's still valuable I mean obviously if you go down a hard core VMware path and you're like a VMware systems engineer but do you think it's valuable it's like a general person or like I never got under for VMware certs I have their I have their standard data center virtualization I have their NSX their network virtualization and this is all DCP right yeah and I have their cloud one which is their automation and I think I told you has all the certs guys he's got all of them but anyway my point is the biggest thing about VMware is there is a skill gap where you need to pay five thousand dollars for a training course unless you have your seats University in a CCNA your CCNA you are eligible to write the network virtualization now I'm not saying this is easy you're gonna have a hard time doing it but if you can pass that network virtualization which basically is your CCNA over again but on the VMware respective mm-hmm then then you're entitled to bypass that $5,000 course or whatever the go asking prices these days so that's another thing where a CCNA pays for itself in unexpected ways that is true now I want to get to this point and I want to tie it into automation as well because uh at what point is it valuable to get these what seemed like secondary skill sets at what point is available to get those secondary skillset certifications I consider a VMware when you're a traditional networking guy or gal I consider VMware being a secondary skill set I picked up VMware without having to go to a certification path I picked up a little bit of Python little bit of this without going down a certification path at what point do you get certified in these secondary skills I look at the dead net associate and I'm like okay it's cool it's giving a people or framework get started but we already kind of had that before and I did a quick job search for a definite associate and guess how many jobs came up with it and like the u.s. I found one actually one looking for dead Knossos kid that's it though yeah well I think that meta program had is a little bit misunderstood and I think Cisco could probably do a better job at messaging what it is did you get a marketing guy on that yep but like the definite cert is actually a lot more senior than what who may realize because they're you know it's basically mention concept sure but you have to have experience with Cisco ACI a-- cisco collaboration Mrak you like basically eight different topic domains across several tracks there what if you're around just a router guy there you probably never touched a cisco ucs before or JCI or all these crazy and acronyms on throwing out people and so cdefg yeah it's more for people who are more senior like I'd say be around CCMP level before you consider definite associate properly and be cut not because of the technical skills of being a CMP but by the time your ccmp you probably have exposure with more of these Cisco products and your companies in your day to day life do you think the definite Associates a adequate test of someone knowing automation because that's the point of it right and I agree with you about the the vast amount of knowledge you have to have going in like you have to know each item ations thing for collaboration and wireless and security like that's that's a wide breadth of information you have to come in having to work with that and that's you know that's why I was able to pass it like I I've worked a lot stuff for four years yeah I think we're both deaf now and 500s right we are we are definite 500 if you don't that is guys it's the first 500 folks to actually get become deafness cert if I get that special badge and I don't know what to do with it but I have it so you just feel really special and smug but I thought it was a pretty good test act I was quite impressed with both the CCNA and the dab net when I wrote them I wrote them basically day one that they came out for Candida anyway I was like day three and the rest of the world but it was us I should kind of worried there was like all my definite associate there and it's not open till Wednesday but I made it that I the just a circle back the CCAA thought was a lot better because the number of questions and the much more focused operational questions very practical and the def net was also very practical it was we were getting too much into it there it was basically a lot of hey here's this automation string and what is wrong with it or was what is this doing so I don't really see a way of passing that if you aren't familiar with reading rusty API calls and there was a fair amount of product knowledge at least on my test that you have to you can't just you can't go the opposite way and say hey I know rest I'm gonna cheat my way through this is a good thing they would actually make sure you understand what cisco collaboration is and help Sara so I thought it was balanced on both fronts there you can't cheese it if you're a cisco guy and you can't cheese it if your poem Grammy guy you got to be both yeah yeah I'll agree with that now let's let's get back home here let's get back to the main subject and kind of I guess put a put an end cap on it Cisco certifications are they worth it I want to believe they are x-files I want to believe I'd yes and I do like I'm getting my I'm taking the Ankur exam here soon and because I believe it is valuable I think I want to tell you guys is valuable mr. packet over here he's on the fees in the field I don't work in the field anymore so it's I lean on people I can to tell me hey we're actually looking for a CCNA so we can't find enough good CCNA s mean we need people who have CCNP so I lean on people like him and they're telling me yeah we need to find these people so it's still valuable it's still out there and I think it will be for a while now mr. packet thrower I want to ask you this 10th years do you think it'd be more valuable to know about AWS or Cisco well I mean knowing AWS doesn't exclude Cisco you have bunch of Cisco appliances in AWS right now who actually uses those no I'm just kidding you can do a lot of your direct interconnects and your and your apply BPC routing whatnot with Cisco CSR routers or other vendors right now so just because it's in the cloud doesn't mean the cloud is basically someone else's data center but you still need to know the basics and they're still gonna be I'm sure ten years from now we'll have a much fancier VPN and Sdn will be like archaic mumbo-jumbo would be like 10 years from now would be like oh why is that frame we really like Sdn on that exam but it's the way it goes there I t's a treadmill and as long as you stay on it you're not gonna get too lost but if you have an app by the tree eventually you're gonna be left behind or something but I would say in terms of I think the new way the I think AWS or even a single cloud provider is reached probably its peak I think because it costs and people realizing the reality of the cloud multi-cloud is the new hot thing because people want because people want to be able to spin up different clouds not just for redundancy but you can actually do a bit of a stock market if you're more future for it you can say hey you know what Asher is ten cents less per minute for this solution so we're gonna use Cisco cloud center which is the cloud Orchestrator and we're just going to tell it to automatically provision our mover app over to Asher or Google cloud or whatever is cheaper and that's going to help up the workload optimization so so as your AWS I personally prefer Asher I'd say I like Asher primarily Google cloud and have the second most experience with an AWS is kind of just their problem AWS is and not a lot of people realize this but a lot of companies are barred from using Amazon because of Amazon is deemed as a competitor for a lot of markets and interesting so because of that they're like let's say Walmart won't allow AWS because AWS is their competition there and they don't want to fund their competition there so they Asher wins by default or a Google cloud so so and that happens a lot more than you might think especially in Canada but it's so I think what you're gonna find is and there's also new clouds popping up like you know digital oceans out there IBM just started a cloud that work well started a cloud if you wanted to have the fun of using Oracle in the cloud but whatever but I think what's gonna happen is cloud is gonna become a commodity just like storage and like you don't really care what your hard drive is for the most part of us you're really down into the weeds and architecture and so basically we're gonna the money's gonna be and something like Cisco Cloud Center where it just you build your kubernetes solution or what it was gonna be and cloud center decides based on whatever requirements up I'm gonna move here here here here here and I figure it's use Ares III I'm not really looking to the solution so you're saying this solution will and a Cisco based it will analyze the cost of these different cloud providers and just shift your infrastructure from place to place depending on the value yeah I'm simplifying a little bit here but basically they have what they call the load optimizer and it will workload optimization entry and c1 and it will basically look at both your physical infrastructure and also the cloud and will figure out what the cost is there and if it decides that hey you know it's cheaper to run this physical you can have it bring back from the cloud to your private cloud which is your data center so there's a lot of really cool stuff there and not just Cisco other people do it too but it's there's a lot of stuff there so I think that the cloud is already getting to the point there where there's not a lot of feature differentiation to free I can talk that guy you don't have to talk not a lot of differences in the features anymore like before like Google Cloud for example is the least feature cloud like it's more DevOps focused so it doesn't have like a lot of functionality and the GUI kind of thing but eventually like Google's gonna get to the point there where it matches a sure and then she's gonna be okay well does Cisco have their appliance that you want to run in there okay cool and off you go and if you don't you can always export it and import it directly right so you have a lot of flexibility and so I think the cloud is gonna minimize it's not going away for sure but the branding of a cloud just like how Sdn abstracts what the network is in theory yeah these new orchestrators are going to do that there and then you also have other tools ACI has a CI anywhere which extends ACI to the cloud VMware NSX has a cloud version that accents the cloud you have like cisco security like cisco defense Orchestrator can manage your PPC security and AWS and Azure and Google clouds coming so it's becoming like Cisco and other vendors if they're smart or focusing on recognizing the complexity of all these random solutions and they're trying to bring it into things like DNA Center whatnot there so you just pay for that and then you don't really care what your underlay is you just say I want this fabric going on there whether it's smart they're becoming the platform yet they're the the gateway for it that's pretty cool I guess the moral story here is that learn learn the cloud in general AWS as your Google Cloud because you're gonna end up probably interfacing with all three or it may be more or others so we're getting close to eight o'clock in my time which is which means my wife's gonna be saying hey it's time to come eat dinner so let's go through a few super chats if you don't mind and we'll look at a few questions here I let me see look at this guy in here Jermaine that keeps of think of the super chat is kind of cut off there so I'll read it out here he says this is a system versus process argument you can teach anyone how to configure interface but he will understand the system behind it the new CCNA forces you to learn the system so I guess that's kind of what we came to the conclusion on right like that's the new Cece Nate you can't be your way through yeah it's it's spread out and up there where I you would have a very hard you if you could data up if you can brain dump I assume probably a pool of like eat under questions to try and pass the CCNA you can probably just pass the CCAA without going out by the time you memorize all those there you might as well just read the boat but so I think I think it's gonna breed more that regard there and it because it actually tests everything there there's not a lot of wasted topics they're like you're not gonna be like okay well why did I learn each P on the old CCNA because by the way that was in the wine topics and I was 10% and it was like one of ten topics or so you maybe had one question if you're lucky on BGP in the test and so I probably not pass or fail at that point mmm we got another question here from the azure demon I just got my AZ 900 I am working towards my Daisy of 103 I have no idea experience but work in health care any tips for getting a job or for the exam so any exam tips or any job tips well I'm writing an azure book on 103 and 104 so stay tuned what would you say for a job I mean we kind of talked in that already like so he's they have their AZ 900 working towards AZ 103 which would be 104 as far as a job search and trying to land that first one I mean we we both agree that it's gonna be kind of hard to get that first cloud job unless you have experience another time you have to think that as a journey like and uh you have to climb the ladder or pay the dues or whatever experts you want to do like you you can't I mean sure happens I mean you could find a ask job tomorrow and it'd be like okay well good for you but for the most part I mean you're probably gonna have to you know work your way in through helpdesk or tech support or a knock or something like that and you know after a year or two and you have the proper connections and because the other side of working up the ladder is not so much the skills you learn but you start making contacts there like you actually start talking we'll say the network team and and then if they like you and you take them out for a beer we now and then they will you know if they see your they know you're applying maybe they plucked your resume out of the hundreds of others and give you a renter view cuz the hiring manager always want to ask the team hey do you know anyone for you hi there and if they say oh yeah like after daemon because you know he's a cool dude and so on so forth or he's on our discord or whatever and you know sometimes that's all you need for getting your foot in the door but yeah I totally agree and that's that's how like my brother did it he was seeing a wireless guy and he really wanted to work with cloud so he got his AWS certification and he he worked his magic he talked with the team helped them out whenever they could he became their networking contact with the networking team and before he knew it he was on the team so yeah working that angle is genius and that's one of the main ways I can see that now cuz yeah like you said it's gonna be hard to find just a cloud job cult that's it's more one of those roles that you build up into based on previous experience so let me see we got some other chats coming up here you send this one there Alex tries on the topic of depth is there an equivalent aptitude cert that says if you can learn that you can cross train anything so see Cena worked often in my areas for that purpose so I guess is there another certification area that's like the CCNA that can apply to multiple areas I would say like you know we just talked about Aruba Aruba kind of does the same thing maybe there cert program is much more niche I would say like I like the Aruba cert and it's fine but you basically have to be either working with Aruba shop or be a partner something to get those certs because it's a lot harder they there's a lot harder to entry and frankly a CCNA will get you a River job but it's not guaranteed that a river sir we'll get you a CCNA job or a Cisco job because if the hiring person doesn't know what a River surge is they may look into it they may not but they won't know what to see sneeze that's true that's true would you say are there any other certifications that are like that across the different vendors let's say Juniper's maybe the biggest name but even they are pretty nice like they're really mostly just service provider and carrier edge kind of things like you don't really see a lot of shops with juniper gear that will care I can't really think of any really good ones and that's where Cisco's really killed it I mean they they became with they did what CompTIA wants to be they became the vendor neutral certification but they're not vendor neutral it's kind of crazy well I yeah well I always have arguments on the CompTIA discord about the PAL valuable vendor neutral because at the end of the day it's like okay that's nice but if you don't teach how to actually learn something you're always gonna be lower than a vendor sir in my eyes do you think like with with multi-cloud do you think a solid like what if they revamp the cloud plus to be like this beefy and huge like incorporating Google cloud Amazon AWS I mean Amazon and Azure of course that'd be a huge exam but if they had something like that do you think it'd be valuable honestly I think it's a double-edged sword would it be valuable sure but compte is reputation is cast and stone at this point oh they can change come on well it's not you can change all they want to there but as long as people like me and whoever else looks at resumes there is like CompTIA like you're they're gonna have a hard time they're at the only way they're gonna get ahead is if they make like a new track like say they make network engineer plus or something or cloud inch near plus like something that say hey it's a brand new track and it gets exposure there but if they just update like the network plus or the cloud plus or any of the existing ones they're like they're already their reputation is what it is they're the people who like CompTIA is mostly the US government but they don't really care what the content is they just want to see the cert and the rest of the industry they prefer people either pretty much anything to come to you for the most part so it's uh they're gonna have really hard time I would say that if they tried to do it they'd have to make a new track that man really make it obvious that hey were jumping into the big leagues look at us or another vendor will have to step up and do it yeah yeah I hear you're saying there I like compte for the fact that they're great for people just starting out like it III forget that like it's been a long time since I've been like the guy who's just like trying to learn everything isn't brand new like everything's really fresh compte is great for that initial learning point then there is I'd be happy if they cut a lot of the bloat their exams are way too bloated for what they actually test on it makes it less interesting for the person studying I've noticed and from watching me come to you a disc where for a couple months and - it's kind of a ways wasted effort there if you're asking 50 questions or whatever they ask and you have 200 topics that they're cramming into the exam there it is sounds like a lot of there's a lot of panic they're like oh I don't know what MDM is like okay relax this - CCNA they're not gonna drill you want to MDM is probably but it is on the exam it's so it's uh so I'd like them to trim the fat and I would also I kind of take issues back with CCR A+ is two exams for one cert I think that's a little bit on the predatory side like they should if you want to cut - I remember doing that it was rough I hated doing that to exist I mean if they want to do that they should either make a one exam or they should make it so each each half gives you a server like a plus Hardware A+ soft or something ok III could see that I could see that so be more job role based maybe focusing on a smaller role kind of like piecemealing a little bit that'd be kind of cool I think they need to take us say like ok guys we are the entry-level vendor that's what we are and you know embrace it I think they kind of looked around and said no we're just as good as anyone else and they kind of elevated how they see themselves you ever seem to come to your roadmap yes it's kind of hilarious if you read it so I think they need some humbleness and they need to drag it down but we don't need to drag them up too much but I had to bash him a little bit oh we know Cisco live stream would be complete without bashing comp ths a little bit anyways we got a super chat for a if you ought to he's always present in the live stream so hey again he says if you're planning for CCNA do you recommend the ocg exam cram and video series and labs like David bombil is that all necessary or is that like a bit overload overboard oh I know I recommend one second here that shameless plug it's coming out of nowhere he's gonna get his book that he helped write it's coming it's coming it's coming the screen here it is there we go that's what you need now todd lammles books miss for our CCNA they are some of the best so ocg in Thailand we are kind of right up there sometimes I prefer todd lammle I'm just saying book is quite good I will say he kind of missed the point on one of the topics but otherwise it's quite good I definitely hit a lot of the automation topics a lot harder than he did and taken the test there I think I was more right than he was based on some of the question how to sleep it there no I I read both yours and Odom's stuff on automation and I'm I love when low demand he did a great job but I think yours was pretty dang good I'll just leave it at that did a great job when yours cool Suki another super chat from Heath Dotson Thank You Heath any tips for getting a job at an online help desk with no prior experience he's currently studying for a CCNA oh okay so I'll start with this one and let you kind of cap that off mr. Patrick Grover I think online help desk that's an interesting job I I don't know how many like I'm assuming it's one of those kind of like a thumbtack in a situation where it's I don't know it's probably looking for a plus level stuff if you're getting your cc- that stuff that might be helpful but they may be looking for that A+ just that entry-level start to get you in the door I haven't had a ton experience with these online help desks so I'm not really sure have you seen those at all mr. Peck thrower yes and I though I suspect this kind of change given the whole landscape right now but the unfortunate thing about being the junior is that your resume isn't all that different from everyone else's resume you're basically most junior people are no relevant work experience maybe entry search or two and maybe a degree and so if you basically if you have no certs at all you kind of go drift to the bottom because basically what's gonna happen is they typically sort resumes and call centers they interview a lot more than typical people but they all are they'll interview let's say 40 people and but there might be a phallus people playing especially if it's online because now you don't have the benefit of local hub assignment now I mean you know it's radically speaking an appeal from other countries could apply if they really have no insert restrictions and actually funny story is my buddy he works in McAfee there and he basically got the job because McAfee hired a guy and they're gonna fly him down to San Jose where for their offices and he basically said well you know why don't you just hire me and leave me in Canada and then you can pay me good money for Canada and that's poor money for you and that way you can do that like oh yeah it's great so they drop the guy they're gonna hire and they hurt my buddy but so the downside of having online and work from home kind of things there's it does make the landscape a little bit more different difficult because you have a lot more competition and I haven't encountered how this looks like yet but traditionally work from home was always at a senior perk because you're more trusted and you could be called upon to actually do the work with this whole pandemic business we kind of forced like the HR lady I'll pick on her who you know as she basically browsed on Facebook all day at work there and now she realizes hey I can play doom if I want to and so there's gonna be a lot of balancer and I suspect that's gonna come into play with hiring a little bit cuz it's hard to hire a brand new face and say okay well I want you to work and by the way I'm not going to be to physically micromanage you or anything like that they're so intellicus I call and I'm call centers are pretty good at cracking the whip so they probably already have ways to make sure you're on the phone call the time like when I was at call center hundred years ago it was work time so basically a ninja time in between phone calls but so I think that there's probably gonna be a give-and-take there for a while but you know just keep persistent I like to joke this all like online dating where you just kind of say hi to everyone and hopefully you get a swing key pace back but yeah it's difficult because like it's online so you don't get that in person and stuff and some that sometimes the the x-factor you can bring to the table when you interview is you know that in-person interaction so online is hard so I think too if you get to the interview phase put your best foot forward make sure you get a good webcam make sure you got good audio dress for the part you want to make it make it seem like you're the best candidate maybe you have a pretty good online presence maybe you've got a blog maybe you got a YouTube channel maybe you got a github I don't know but if it's a if it's gonna be an online job and make sure your online presence is solid I think that would be super helpful but yeah it's a new landscape so I don't even know really I think that would help yeah but yeah the other day it's just a it's an unfortunate numbers game it and the loser and that is always the junior but I mean eventually you know it's kind of like playing the lottery except for it's a bit more successful like I mean it might feel like you're applying for a thousand jobs and maybe you do have to apply for a thousand jobs for you get one but eventually you should get yeah and I see people say it all the time like they're they're so discouraged because it's they've applied for it like their full-time job is now like applying for jobs that's that's part of the process like keep going eventually you'll find a job that's like oh well you're the perfect candidate you're exactly what we're looking for so don't be discouraged if you're just been applying like crazy you'll eventually find one the unfortunate side of it is the from the business perspective I mean they have no reason to change because they have like 100 African show up whenever they opened their doors so it's from their perspective they just picked their I mean you can argue that okay well I looked at ten resumes maybe the 13 phrase mate was like the real rock star I never looked at it strategy of life I suppose yeah yep we got a super chat from our good old friend Kelvin he says tell Donald meow sucks he'll know who it is a feeling is mutual buddy that's some good old discord vantur if you guys have enjoy my discord you should go do that because we had that type of fun all the time you want to miss that okay my youtube channel is far superior to kelvins in every way oh yeah you know what I need to you know I'm gonna grab your YouTube channel link right now I'm actually throw up a super chat and you can answer answer the question while I'm looking for it so you think CCMP collaboration track is worth it to compared to other tracks oh okay well Chuck and I are both pull-out guys are pretty sure Chuck is a collab guy oh I'm through yeah so he's got a phone behind him so I feel I felt pretty safe up but open old phone that's like a 79 40 or something anyway it ultimately depends on and any track and any sir really not just Cisco but you have to align it with what you're working with and sometimes where you want to go kind of thing there so I will say if you have no collaboration experience collaboration is very different than what you're used to of networking mm-hmm massively different like it's a different world and make sure you actually care about you know you find making the phone ringing interesting there because if you're giving up every weekend of your life there to study for the CCP collaboration to learn how to change the dial tone you're probably gonna hate your life so make sure you make him start choices in terms of value yes I do a ton of collaboration work I do a lot of Microsoft and Cisco and I even did a sure they're not as your Amazon's a contact center deployment the other day and it's a it's a good skill set collaboration is really good for learning your foundations there because for one it's a great way of learning multicast routing knowing a multicast and that's where I first saw multicast is dealing with music on hold no one really understands multicast until they start playing with phones really because otherwise it's ever less okay this is really crazy and complicated and why do I care but when you're actually trying to make say voicemail works like or aging it's like oh I get it is fun yeah and to at you know really helps you all down QoS and some other features like that but it's uh it's a great skill to work towards if you're already working but I would say if you're not working on phones already or you that isn't in horizon I'd say play with it a lot more before you dive into it because it's not as cut and dry as OSPF is fun so I bet I'll love CCP Enterprise yeah I mean that's that's good advice because I know my first experience with phones was not just oh I want to become a ccmp or CCNA voice then that was back when I started going down that track it was that I was in a job where they just kind of said here I hate phones you do phones and it turned out I liked it so yeah I get your hand on the phone maybe find a company that has Cisco phones or go to Walmart or Target or something they all use Cisco phones they don't let you use them but you can take a look at them but they are it's a crazy viable skill I mean Cisco phones are everywhere collaborations everywhere and not like like Don said not everyone likes it so that's the recipe for a valuable skill a skill that no one wants to do and if you like it then you're gonna have a great time that was me I got really far really fast because collaboration was a skill that people didn't like I loved it and I'll just have to that one final point there is that vendors approached collaboration very differently so if you're see speak operation you'll probably have a decent time learning Skype for business but you're gonna have a hard time there because Microsoft handles things completely differently and then how Cisco does it and they don't see eye to eye at all so if your company is basically long story short if your company is using say Microsoft teams or whatever then you're better off trying to learn Microsoft teams and to try and dive into Cisco there and trying to hammer their it's not as applicable I was like a CCA is for other networking things yet collaboration is very very wide and very I think the only like standard thing you can learn is sip that's gonna be across anything sip isn't it I mean it's a standard but everyone implements it differently so it's like like Skype for business they only do TCP sip it's like okay thanks guys that's what suppressing in collaboration and yeah and I see that so we got one more super chat will answer them we'll have to end this because my wife has already texted me to stop mr. Cesar Morales says getting a plus first to get basic knowledge question mark then a CCNA question mark could that work coming with zero experience so we kind of cover a bit of this but mr. packet thrower since you are here I'll let you cover this so A+ is a good first search than CCNA what would you recommend for someone with zero experience well so I have nothing against the A+ aside from being two exams I think that's predatory yeah I think it's a bit too bloated in terms of it if you want to do an A+ like if you truly know nothing they're like you let's just say you can't build a computer on your own is the common shorthand 3 plus and yeah sure I mean there's no harm at least reading the A+ books in terms of a plus two CCNA what a plus will mostly give you is just get you used to going into a test center record by doing the actual exam process so you're not you know what your CCNA necessarily to be your first exam because it's already relatively hard exam beliefs from a junior perspective and you don't want to be that be your first experience I mean it's make things sound worse than it is but if you want to easy win then a plus is an easy win there were you're probably not gonna fail you're a plus if you study decently and you know we'll get you used to reading the book and it won't really get you used to laughing because there's not a lot of having an a-plus but it at least gets you used to the idea so I like I agree there I try to interrupt you but I I agree it's it's a good first search cuz yeah if you go in no certification CCNA that's gonna be daunting and scary it might scare you off so we don't want to do that so you have baby steps with A+ what's your opinion on like landing the first job I think a plus is vital if you're trying to get that first help desk job now if you already have help desk forget the A+ no what do you think about that well I think I mentioned it here but generally speaking and there's never any Universal Troop of hiring but generally speaking job will just be happy that you have any cert there so unless you're trying to work for like a PC if you want to work for like a PC tech kind of PC repair they have a plus like they they won't care about anything else but if you're trying to work for like a tech support at ISP or help desk or something like that there if you have any kind of cert they're usually perfectly happy with whatever you have so if you you don't don't feel like you have to get the a plus you get a tech support job usually the a plus will land your resume justice I if not a little bit higher then with a plus or any other kind of come to you so I mean there's always that business there's there's like it's a plus or Nothing kind of thing there and just like there's always that one or two business this is as they need to have a batch of the screwed from Harvard or we're not gonna look at but in a reasonable sense if you die for whatever you choose you can probably get an adorn the only thing I wouldn't really I would advise caution with is the security plus the security plus is good for us gov and that's about it and that's probably not gonna get you a help desk job or a tech support there cuz like okay I understand some basic security concepts that's great but not really what we're looking for so uh that's a bit too out of the wheelhouse but like a plus that plastic do I want to do that a CCNA at least get you a phone call and basically that's all sir will do for you is get you a phone call and then after that it's your interview and how well you know your knowledge and stuff yeah I'll agree with you I think if a plus is crazy valuable if you don't have a degree I think it's gonna tell them that hey you've actually gone through a study course you've you've demonstrated that you can I think what it does it demonstrates you learn something demonstrates you can stick with something and I think that's valuable I will disagree with you on the security plus no I'm not gonna say the security plus will make you a cyber security expert and that's what they're looking for but I think it does satisfy some some requirements some DoD stuff so it opens up this program into anyway oh yeah there you go I think security plus gives you a good overview of security stuff a by all means it's not like a job I've used security plus as a and also served like you know like I'm a a plus and also a security plus or I'm a CCA and all like oh yeah it's not it's not oh I have security plus hire me yeah you're right it's one of those complementary certifications that a lot of people just have to have I know my father opened it this court I see a lot of people who they just because they got cyber security in the head they go straight for SEC plus and it's like okay that's great but I mean it's a very niche market that's gonna directly see that psych class to say okay I'll interview there without anything else yeah yeah so that's that's where it's valuable is getting those DoD requirements the security plus isn't the only one that does that I mean see Cisco cyber ops associate meets that too and I've taken that yet I took the I took the old version I'm probably gonna do the professional when it comes out just for fun oh yeah that's gonna be brand new I forgot about that app I quite like the cyber ops associate it's basically checks all the boxes it's not Cisco centric for the people who hate Cisco and it's oh it's a pretty long cross up there I mean yeah you could argue if it's just as good as like tech plus plus cyber security or whatever they call it up I'm small I can say whoever it is it's at looking down on it and like my girlfriend works in the security industry there and they're all about the Cisco cyber ops her right now and no really heard I would come to you at all at least from the teams that she's worked on interesting I'm gonna have to look at that things yeah I haven't really looked at the cyber ops path on Cisco stuff I'll have to jump into that here soon anyways guys we're gonna have to end this now because my wife has texted me mister pakka thrower thank you so much for coming on once again it's always a pleasure to have you here and guys I do want to find mr. Pak there were on the interwebs let me see if I have this yeah I just posted his YouTube channel in the chat go subscribe to him he's got a thousand now let's um he's got one thousand and six or eight or still like that so let's go subscribe to him and he wrote a book with todd lammle go check that out i'll put in the description here when I have a moment any passing words of knowledge or wisdom mister pakka thrower don't eat yellow snow you know what that's why the most valuable piece of information we've said on the stream thank you sir we'll take that down write that down take some notes well guys that's about it keep studying keep focused to kind of endcap the Cisco certifications are viable I started this debate kind of light heartedly saying okay I if I had to go back and choose a path maybe I wouldn't choose Cisco certifications but I know right now I'm still getting them I know they're still viable and if you're looking at getting into Newark engineering yes get them there there's some of the most valuable certifications in our industry and will be for a while yeah that's it so we'll catch you guys later and we'll be live-streaming next week as well and look for videos throughout the week talk to you guys later [Music] that's like this [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music]

Channel: NetworkChuck

Views: 41,317

Rating: 4.8696108 out of 5

Keywords: cbt nuggets, ccna, ccna study, ccna training, cisco ccna, cisco ccna certification, cisco training, comptia a+ 901, comptia linux plus, comptia linux+, comptia linux+ certification, comptia linux+ exam, comptia linux+ tutorials, comptia linux+ xk0-004, information technology, kali linux, linux for beginners, linux tutorial, linux+ exam, linux+ xk0-004, lpic 1, raspberry pi, raspberry pi 3, raspberry pi 3 projects, raspberry pi projects, raspberry pi tutorials, top 10

Id: QahtAHEj2r0

Length: 92min 8sec (5528 seconds)

Published: Mon Jun 29 2020