Should Women Preach in Our Lord's Day Worship Services? A Debate with Tom Ascol and Dwight Mckissic

well welcome how's everybody doing fantastic it's good to be inside during the summer isn't it well my name is Michael O'Fallon and I will be serving as today's moderator for a very special debate with the primary thesis being should women be allowed to preach in our Lord's Day worship services a few important items to mention before we begin this afternoon's discussion firstly I would like to recognize pastor Dwight McKissack Ben Cole and pastor Thomas Cole for their dutiful work to ensure that this scholarly discussion take place along with me will be Ryan dick chief timekeeper for the event yes many of you know Ryan he is dr. RC Sproles grandson so he'll be if anything goes wrong it's his fault now seriously if if you could please all take out your phones please like so please hold them in the air everyone okay and if you could please turn your phone's off during this time that's the effective way of silencing them we would ask that there be no video or audio recording during the debate no flash photography and please and this is for in the interest of time please refrain from applause or any other ambient noise until participants and their time has concluded the format for today's debate will be the following affirmative and negative positions we'll both deliver 15-minute opening statements this will be followed by two 5-minute rebuttals we will then have a very short break while we reset the stage we will then enter a time of dialogue with the affirmative side dr. McKusick asking questions for the first 15 minutes followed by the negative position asking questions for the next 15 minutes we will then have another very short break then what we will do is have an affirmative closing statement for five minutes and a negative closing statement for five minutes now at this time if you take a look on many of your seats you're wondering why there was a white index card there well that is for you that is for you the audience to have questions that you should go ahead and write out please signify who the question is for pastor McKissack or pastor then at the end of the time that we have for questions and rebuttals we will then collect those cards and we will have two representatives from both of these gentlemen select the top four questions to ask to them for the end of their time well let me go ahead and introduce our participants representing the affirmative position is pastor Dwight McKissack pastor McKissack is the pastor of Cornerstone Baptist Church in Arlington Texas pastor McKissack vision is to continue developing a multicultural ministry that will eventually cowls a K to 12 school retreat communication center and ministries to reach and mentor fatherless children in addition to mentoring church planters he is the author of several books including beyond roots in search of blacks in the Bible beyond roots - if anybody asks you who I am and moving from fear to faith pastor McKissack has served as a guest lecturer for schools such as Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary where he serves as a trustee Criswell College University of Minnesota Emory University Southern Illinois University and Wheaton College would you please welcome with me pastor Dwight McKissack [Applause] representing the negative position will be pastor Tom asked al pastor Tom a schools currently the senior pastor of Grace Baptist Church in Cape Coral Florida where he has served faithfully for 30 years pastor a school serves as the executive director of founders ministries an organization committed to the recovery of the gospel and the Reformation of local churches pastor a school edits the founders journal a quarterly theological publication of founders ministries and has written numerous articles and edited and contributed to several books he regularly preaches and lectures at various conferences throughout the United States and other countries he also authors the founders ministries blog which has been described as quote the web's chief clearinghouse of information on Baptists and the doctrines of grace at founders org would you please welcome with me Pastor Tom maskel to begin our debate this afternoon with the affirmative position please welcome pastor Dwight mckissick thank you Michael Oh Alan grateful to be here with Reverend Tom asked a question before us today is does the Bible permit women to preach in our Lord's Day worship service in the kingdom of God God values women neither complementarianism or egalitarianism our biblical terms and they fall short of biblical definitions and parameters when it comes to certain gender roles in God's kingdom ministry Jesus would not label himself complementarian or an egalitarian therefore neither will I the word I have corn to label my position or gender roles in ministry is kingdom aryan the appalachian kingdom aryan focus on jesus is central teaching on all things as matters pertaining to the kingdom of god a kingdom aryan is one who believes men and women are co-equal under god both are valued by god in their essence and function both are called into the ministry of disciple-making and preaching the gospel of the kingdom to the ends of the earth and both do this with the recognition that in the local church women and men function under god's authority under the leadership of a kingdom vocals male lead pastor because of god's sovereign purposes and kingdom assignments my thesis is the bible reveals that in God's kingdom God gifts and called women to preach to whomever he wills on any day he wills at any gathering he wills without limitations with respect to gender there's an orthodoxy with did me that were not permit this or money broadcasting of an idea that the Bible will not back and we find Peter quoting jaws says in the last days God will pour out his spirit upon all flesh and your sons and daughters shall prophesy the Son of God the spirit of God and the saints of God have sanction and commission women to preach the gospel wherever and whenever God would open a door for the word to speak the mystery of Christ the Son of God affirmed women in Proclamation ministries at Jesus's birth Anna the prophecies prophetess spoke of him to all those who look for redemption in Jerusalem she did not have caught from the temple whatever prophesy Anna engaged in occurred at the Temple in Jerusalem and we know she spoke to all according to the text men and women during Jesus's life men and women followed Jesus funded his ministry were discipled by him stood by him at the cross and came to the tomb very early in the morning on the first day of the week they brought the spices and ointments to dress a dead man's body when they should have been bringing him breakfast because he told me don't get up on the third day the male disciples with the exception of John were conspicuously absent at the cross and at the tomb John alone eventually stood by Jesus at the cross but Jesus rewarded the women for their faith and faithfulness to him by commissioning two women Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to deliver the first large they worship sermon in the history of the Christian Church as a matter of fact they went for the women we wouldn't even known about the resurrection Jesus fully entrusted women to deliver the first day Lords mess - man I agree with Southern Baptist pastor Steve Benson in the days after the resurrection as the church was formed the New Testament is clear women were integral women were the ones to discover the empty tomb and therefore they were the first - he used the word preach the gospel and I agree with him then I want you to also see the Spirit of God anointed and appointed women to preach the gospel under God's Authority without regard to the day of the week under God appointed male leadership when they were in the upper room on the day of Pentecost when God poured out his spirit upon the church God poured out his Spirit upon women at Pentecost to proclaim the wonderful works of God just as he did the men I've already mentioned Peter having quoted Joel and in this obviously in that text it's significant that is appropriated to establish an authoritative basis with which underscores the significance of Pentecost for both men and women the Holy Spirit distributes gifts of the Spirit to each one according to his will to profit all the Holy Spirit distributed to each one individually as he wills without regard to agenda one of the gifts the Spirit gave without regard to gender was the gift of prophecy what is prophecy the common Reformation answer appealed to first Corinthians 14:3 the best definition of prophecy who prophesize speak edification and exhortation and comfort to me and prophecy would also include a caught in the first Corinthians 14 31 teaching and learning the evangelism accorded in the first Corinthians 14 24 and 25 the gift of preaching is not listed among the list of spiritual gifts no one would argue that men and women are gifted by God's Spirit to preach them going so fast watching the cloud so where is the gift of preaching among the list of spiritual gifts I agree with the late dr. Jack grape former professor at Southwestern seminary who believes that the gift of prophecy he equates to the gift of preaching the gift of prophecy is mentioned in all three lists of spiritual gifts prophecy of the spirits gift according to dr. gray to preach the message of God with clarity and power to be God's spokesman to his people both forth telling and foretelling it is the gift to receive and deliver God's message to people prophecy is primarily communicating the gospel with the view towards persuasion 1st Corinthians 11 5 Paul affirms women praying and prophesying with their heads covered according to the distinguished professor of New Testament of Southwest seminary the lady gyro Ellis he says in in Acts the prophets reveal two features that are similar to the role of the pneumatics in the pauling literature they engage in ministries of teaching and oxidation and they give Christological exposition of Scripture Ellis also contends in acts that the prophets and acts also expound the scripture and exhort and strengthen the disciples Ellis mentioned that the four daughters of Philip might have exercised such functions and even stood out as leaders in the early church he goes on to cite the patristic remembers of the daughters of Philip to suggest that their activity was not an occasional phenomenon but was distinguished and long remembered ministry Eusebius also wrote about that the saints of God in Baptist history have sanctioned women preaching the second London confession of faith a particular Baptist 1689 some of you really love that it states that the work of preaching the word is not so peculiarly confined to the elders but that others also gifted and fitted by the Holy Spirit for you and approved and called by the church may and ought to perform it elders can give permission or Commission anybody they want to in a church to perform the ministry of preaching note these and other preachers who did not hold the pastor office preached because they were gifted to do so dr. Curtis Freeman a research professor of theology at do school of divinity has read the book about seven women who preached in British Baptist history the book is called a company of women preachers Baptist prophetess in 17th century England Ashley on Macbeth great southern baptists historian tells us about to send a creek tradition where there were women deacons deaconesses elder sis has some women like Martha Stearns Moisture were notable for their fervent preaching and praying in public birth Smith when you call it testimony sharing whatever you call it she delivered the Lord's Day message their Bellevue Memphis First Baptist Dallas at First Baptist Atlanta and retired Oklahoma pastor Paul Burleson said this about this birthday he's spoken with her admitted times at conferences he says miss Berta did not give a testimony she did not bring a devotional she preached the word in power he goes on to write the SPC historically has been blessed by women are not about the spirit sharing the Word of God it may not have been mainstream but it was God from my perspective Charles Turner stated about this press October 24 2003 there are a number of women matter of fact he was saved under woman evangelist he said our number of women who are preachers who are preparing the preaching the gospel today and they are very successful at it and they are meeting people needs you can't tell a woman who is called by God to teach that she cannot teach the Word of God so I think that there's a difference between the authority of a pastor and a Bible teacher Azis cruel and so delighted to meet his grandson here and a message of title lecture from the teaching series the role of women in the church RC spruce ed I see nothing in scripture that precludes a woman from being a preacher I believe you speaker to a woman can be a preacher in the church all a Sunday morning service dr. W a Kris well in his book the Criswell guidebook for pastor says their posture Paul says the woman is to pray at the prophesy speak out for Christ said in the church she has a word the place of honor in the household of God's redeemed dr. Criswell permitted his wife miss Barrett Criswell to teach men and women four to six hundred more than average Southern Baptist Church half of a man on each Sunday morning over the radio in the area where we are if God's Word is true we'll see this happening more and more than Southern Baptist churches because he said in the last days it would take place he's raised up Beth Moore and Priscilla Shara so many Baptist and Angelica women to do so and God's truth is marching on psalm 68:11 says the lord gives the word great is the house of women who proclaim it in the hebrew bible dr. sherry Crowder sharp so glad she's here today who talked the Hebrew alphabet at Southwestern seminary she actually said the Lord gives forth his word the ones who are proclaiming it a great house the pl proud of Superman feminine plural and you could even translate the pot of silver as the women proclaim it it a great host Bill Victor raises a great question on this topic if Phoebe came to your church with the letter from Paul would you let her read it in church she's believed to have carried the Roman epistle from Sinclair to Rome Paul told a man to assist her and whatever she tells you to do the early church met on the Lord's Day she no doubt elaborated on the content of that epistle and would we deny a woman from doing today what Paul allowed women today to do there is something profoundly wrong with the idea that a woman cannot speak or preach from the pulpit or a wherever the pulpit just came along in about 1500 we don't need to fight over podium we need to turn the women loose with the gifts that God has ordained them to even preach to men and women and that's exactly what Paul instructed fever to do it he has structured the man to insist her and whatever business she has need of you it is time for the church to let Phoebe facility priscilla phillips for daughters conduct a ministry under God's Authority take God's ordained male leadership as he instructed them to do even preaching in our large day of worship service and unlike in my church I'm gonna give you back one minute and 41 seconds Thank You pastor McKissack would you please welcome Tom a school for his 15 minutes so does that mean I have 16 minutes and 46 seconds unfortunately no no okay well I want to thank pastor McKissack for suggesting this debate last month he did so in response to my objection to Beth Moore and other women stating on social media that they plan to preach in their churches on the Lord's Day that fell on Mother's Day Pastor McKissack supported these ladies and their plans I cited Dwight's support of those women and did so in a podcast the sword in the trial that Jared longshore and I do Dwight listen to the podcast and after listening to the podcast he said hey Tom since you quoted me which he said you quoted me accurately I was grateful for that so I'm sure you wouldn't mind having a debate in Dallas before the Southern Baptist Convention and so here we are because of that and I appreciate his willingness to do it we negotiated back and forth trying to figure out the best way to do this and God's worked to help us to get to this point so the question that we are debating is should women be allowed to preach in our Lord's Day worship services I want to make clear what we are not debating what the debate is not about it is not about the value of women it's quite obvious that God created both men and women in His image both are therefore worthy of dignity respect and honor the second London confession of faith which I'm so grateful you quoted says he created man male and female with reasonable and immortal souls being made after the image of God and knowledge righteousness and true holiness the Baptist faith the message 2000 also says in article 3 man is the special creation of God made in his own image he created the male and female as the crowning work of his creation the gift of gender is thus part of the goodness of God's creation some have argued at different times in places that women are less valuable than men but as the husband of godly wife father of five godly daughters and one godly daughter-in-law I can assure you that I am in no danger in buying into that unbiblical opinion and none of the arguments that I intend to make tonight will fall prey to that wrongheaded thinking so this debate is not about the value of women it's also not about primarily the valuable services in God's kingdom that women have performed it's obvious that God's women have that women of God have served the kingdom in wonderful ways throughout redemptive history I mean in the Old Testament we have a litany of women who've done this Miriam the prophetess sister of Moses wrote a song in Scripture that's recorded for us Deborah the wonderful judge in Israel hold up who also prophesied Isaiah's wife did this as well you come to the New Testament we have as has been mentioned Anna Phillips four daughters Mary Martha yo dia cent aqui phoebe priscilla travina tri osa Persis Rufus's mother jr. and any others that I've overlooked simply for the sake of time these are women that have served wonderfully well and they have been recorded in the annals of God's Word not only that women have been powerfully used throughout church history to advance the cause of Christ they continue to be wonderfully instrumental in advancing the gospel in our own day our church sent out one of my daughters to Pakistan in order to help minister the word to costume people we also see now another one of my daughters to Indonesia to minister helping get the gospel to long hungies people you don't have to convince me that women play a vital role in the kingdom of God that's not what this debates about it's not about how the spirit gifts individual believers 1st Corinthians 12:11 says all Christians are empowered by one in the same spirit who have portions of each one individually as he wills Christian women are spiritually gifted like men are and like men some are unusually gifted in wonderful ways however all of God's gifts and the believers who possess them are to be regulated by the Word of God after all the spirit who gives the gifts has given us the word therefore just as Paul does in 1st Corinthians chapter 11 we must reject any attempt to exercise a gift in ways that are contrary to God's Word so what is the debate about well it's about biblical ecclesiology and church polity the question is should women be allowed to preach in our lord's day worship services Dwight and I agreed on the form of this question not because neither he hear I think that we have the authority or any human court has the authority to make that decision but rather because as he framed it we understand the Bible speaks to this issue and our desert desire is to discern what the Bible actually has to say we believe both believe that the Bible and Bible alone has the final say on this question amen so our real concern is to debate whether or not God has expressed his will on the issue of women preaching in church worship gatherings and if he has what that will is so this puts us in the realm of church order and polity or ecclesiology does God care about the structures of his churches does he care about what the churches that bear the name of his son actually do well yes I mean yes yes he does he spoken sufficiently clearly about such matters Baptists have historically believed the these matters of ecclesiology are so important that we have been willing to suffer and die rather than compromise our convictions on points of ecclesiastical order in practice in 1st Timothy chapter 3 verses 14 and 15 Paul explains to Timothy why he has written that letter to him he says I'm writing these things to you so that if I delay you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God which is the church the Living God a pillar and buttress of the truth God cares how his children conduct themselves in his household it is his house so it's his rules that apply so the question can be put to us in this way do God's rules for his house the church allow for women to preach in the gathered meetings of the Lord's Day worship so the question has nothing to do with the value of women their usefulness in the kingdom their spiritual giftedness rather the question before us is whether or not God prescribes or allows women to preach in lord's day worship services in order to get the right answer to that question we're gonna have to focus on two other issues that are at the heart of the debate both of these issues are absolutely crucial for a proper answer to the question before us the first is the role of men and women in God's created order God created woman from man for man and Adam was created first he was created to be his helper suitable to him God created them with clear distinctions distinctions that are summarized in the categories of maleness and femaleness and though there's no difference between men and women before God's law or as recipients of his saving grace God designed men and women with distinct traits to fulfill distinct roles these differences are most clearly defined in marriage in the church God created Adam to be the representative head of Eve and the rest of the human race we see this in Romans 5:12 through 19 thus though he was the first to disobey God directly by eating the fruit of the forbidden tree God held Adam responsible he failed in his role as the leader and head of Eve and the leader in the head of the whole human race Romans 5:12 says it therefore just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin so death spread to all men because all sinned in Adams fall we send all we teach our children Adams headship over Eve was by God's original design and creation he gave him this role and responsibility before sin entered the world which means it's right and it's good for both men and women senator the world through the reversal of this God designed order and relationship between Adam and Eve she usurped his responsibility by dealing with the serpent directly and he abdicated his responsibility by passively standing by and allowing it to happen through those sin both of them sinned God placed the responsibility for Senator in the world squarely on Adams shoulders God's design for the distinct distinct purposes of maleness and femaleness are especially put on display by a husband's responsibility to be the head of his wife has taught Ephesians five and by local churches being led by qualified called men has spelled out first Timothy 3 Titus 1 so when God prescribes that the work of pastors including preaching preaching God's Word to the whole church should be carried out by qualified men he's not sliding women at all he's displaying his wisdom and goodness in the world and in the church he created that's the first issue the second one is hermeneutical integrity the hermeneutical principles that we use to interpret the Bible must seek to understand the plain sense of the words that God has actually inspired the chief method by which pastors and elders and bishops are to carry out their servant leadership in a church is through the Ministry of the word we see this in acts 6 when the Apostles are serving as elders of the church in Jerusalem problem comes up Peter says it's not right that we should give up the preaching of the word and so those men were appointed to the problem solving the problem so that those leaders could give themselves to the Ministry of prayer and the word in 1st Timothy 5:17 Paul says that elders who rule well be worthy of double honor especially those who labor in preaching and teaching and when Paul is nearing the end of its life what does he say that Timothy in 2nd Timothy 4:2 when everything goes horribly in the world in the church preach the word so it's no surprise then that God specifically forbids those who could never lawfully fulfill the role of pastor from taking up the main pastoral responsibility of preaching in the worship gatherings of God's church there are two texts that state this plainly there's a lot of them they limit myself to two first corinthians 14 says as in all the churches of the saints the women should keep silent in the churches but they are not permitted to speak but should be in submission as the law also says all goes on to say in that text that it is shameful for a woman to speak in church and if anyone does not recognize this he is not recognized in verse 26 before this passage Paul summarizes what he's just written about gifts given by the Spirit and he does so in this language what then brothers when you come together each one has a him a lesson which is the word did it came which is teaching doctrine a revelation a tongue or an interpretation then in verse 27 he begins to deal with those specific things he's just summarized in reverse order listen to it in verses 27 and 28 he says deals with tongues and interpretations if anyone speaks in a tongue and then lets someone interpret so he deals with those two issues in verses 29 through 33 he deals with prophecy and how the prophets are to be regulated by the word and then when we get to 33 38 he deals with teaching and that's where he says the women should keep silent in the churches so he's explaining what those gifts are for and how they're to be regulated the key passage is the second key passage is first Timothy 2 verses 9 through 14 where Paul writes I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man rather she's to remain quiet in this passage Paul gives a prohibition against teaching women teaching or exercising authority over men it comes in the midst of his instructions about how believers would conduct themselves in every place verse 8 says this is a reference to either the house churches in Ephesus all of them or possibly to all the churches where Paul taught with the rise of feminist hermeneutics this passage has been increasingly subjected to critique and reinterpretation in modern times however prior to this there has been a remarkable consensus of its understanding across all of church history Paul identifies two positive activities and not permanent women to engage in in these activities with respect to men teaching and exercise and authority some see this as one activity that he's forbidding teaching in an authoritative way so they can teach as long as they don't do it as one has said in an elder like way yet the word for teach is did ask nine it's usually used in the New Testament to denote accurate teaching of the gospel the authoritative proclamation of God's will to believers according to Douglas mood and the pastoral epistles mu says teaching always refers to authoritative doctrine instruction the second activity that he forbids is exercising authority over men in the church this word Authority their exercise of authority is only used here in the New Testament it's not used many places outside the New Testament in the time of the New Testament and some have tried to interpret it to mean to assume authority or to lord it over but in the present tense form it has never used that way outside of scripture anywhere that we can find it so consider the rationale that Paul gives in verses 13 and 14 this prohibition he doesn't say I forbid this because of the cult of Artemis he doesn't say because of what's going on in Ephesus he says I do this because of creation the man was created first and then the woman and the woman was deceived and then the man followed in sin the reason men are to teach women are not to teach or exercise authority over men in the church is because of what happened at creation and the fall so just as God has created order in the beginning for the whole world so he has created order in the church we saw what happened when order was reversed the creation and we will see similar difficulties when order is reversed in the church in short God restricts preaching in our Lord's Day worship services where men and women are present two qualified men thank you dr. Haskell we'll now move into our rebuttal period and pasture quite mckissick has five minutes for his rebuttal can I have my minute forward to the second bag from from the Treasury of Merit from the moderator yes you may have one extra minute you will have six minutes for rebuttal excuse my clock boy to put six minutes in there we go thank you Michael there is no single verse in the Bible that has generated more controversy than first Timothy 2:12 perhaps other than Genesis 9:27 both of those verses have been used in a restrictive way one to hold down african-americans or Africans and Genesis 9:27 and this verse has been totally misused to restrict and bind women and church has been wrong on women suffrage and been wrong even southern Africa mission and serve in the early seventies on abortion they voted and asked us to approve it they've been wrong about Jim Crow so the church is missed it on a lot of things they may have missed it also on this notion that a woman cannot stand and preach dr. Mary spew is correct and his assessment as to why there is knows why they're such a great controversy around 1st Timothy 2:12 the crux of the controversy some would say take it as written that's what my dear friend tom has said others would say go behind what is written Paul mentioned Ephesus and season 1 3 is we we don't treat of it we don't treat 1st Timothy 2:9 that one became where pearls or braids like we treat 1st Timothy 2:12 I was just a very consistent in how we interpret that and dr. Pugh it also says others they would say cross reference scripture Martin Luther said the best interpreter of Scripture is scripture Paul taught their women in the kingdom what a model of the pattern of leadership God set forth in creation whereby leadership is exhibited by male and female both being given Dominion the male has given leadership responsibilities in the partnership and the woman is the follower the tipping of Artemis at Ephesus had a woman at the center and me and were the followers Paul said you turn creation on his head this was a reversal of the creation models practice at the Temple of Artemis Paul writes that he does in first Timothy 2:12 he writes as a corrective that say women should not swap roles with the man women can preach on the laws their worship if they follow leadership as did holder and Phoebe and 1st Corinthians 11 5 New Testament prophetess and not rebelled against leadership as did Eve and Jezebel in revelations chapter 2 so I've already mentioned this it consistent how we interpret if we just applied the same hermeneutical principles the first tip the 2:12 we that we apply the 1st Peter 2:9 this debate would already be over with I also want to point out there's a misunderstanding and misapplication of the text related to silence and women applied to preaching and speaking we really don't mean that we're saying first we quote I suffered I'm not a woman not to teach that 10 verse they'd be silent we don't say be silent matter of fact for any cross between she teach us theology to go God be the glory we sing us a song we left the women sing we let the women do a whole lot of things we don't apply that same specific literal application to the silent passages as we do I suffer a woman not to teach silence does not mean silence it was in 1st Corinthians 14:34 the structure for silence must be taken in the context of the situation in it I think it was referring to the fact that in Roman culture women by law couldn't learn he said learn before you speak I think it has something to do with how tongues being interpreted become prophecy and somebody had to call the finest shots with that West poker being would it be a binding on a congregation he keeps in principle the order of creation where men were ruling but a clearly and if he let a woman speak in first Corinthians 7:5 he went tell them to be silent in first corinthians 14 there is failure to understand the historical context of paul instructions when he referenced each and to have authority 1st timothy 2 13 through 15 applying the creation story to e but not not applied to Adam his fall there was a serious theological contradiction in telling a woman when she comes to faith in Christ her personal sins are forgiven but she must continue to be punished for the sin of Adam and that's what hyper complementarian is embarrassed Romans 8:1 says there is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus but yet we go back and impose what took place with Eve on today's women that's a theological disorder of the highest order the creation story is meant to protect women not to oppress them Paul which is Adam creation prior to eat not to argue that women ought to be beneath them or the heel of man but their women ought to be covered and protected by me and it was Paul and Phoebe working together priscilla and aquila working together God has always used men and women together in the kingdom in kingdom Advancement the scripture taught that when God when God's order got perverted women were the ones who were the seed that meant that man should help them learn in silence lying before you speak it was not an eternal restriction for them never to speak too many people are overlooking hermeneutics 101 it demand that we interpret Scripture with Scripture this is the only doctrine that we we build off one verse not the Trinity not Christology you pneumatology you name any other doctrine there's a body of work a body of verse this is the only Doctor sort of like we'd be a genus of 9:27 we took that one verse her she became it and for thousands of years we treated people brutally tens in the name of God with doing the same thing with 1st Timothy 2:12 thank you Pastor Mike paster a school now has five minutes for his rebuttal first of all I would like to say that we ought to use biblical definitions for biblical words so if we're going to use prophecy shouldn't we let the Bible define prophecy the Bible does define prophecy for us in Exodus chapter 7 verse 1 the Lord said to Moses see I have made you like God to Pharaoh and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet what does that mean will you go back to chapter 4 and you see exactly what it means because God defines prophecy you shall speak to Aaron and put the words in his mouth and I will be with your mouth and his mouth and you he you will and we'll teach both of you what to do he shall speak for you to the people he shall be your mouth and you shall be as God to him that's a pretty good biblical definition of prophecy so prophecy is not the exposition of scripture prophecy is not the same thing identical with preaching as the Apostle Paul admonished Timothy to do prophecy has at least some degree a passivity about it because we're saying that God has revealed his word according to this biblical definition the very words that he intends to be prophetically spoken and so it is a category error to take prophecy that was going on in the first century by men and women and saying that that therefore applies to preaching in the New Testament churches in the thesis before us on the Lord's Day my brother pointed out how prominent women were in Jesus's ministry and that's certainly true in the Old Testament as well but there were no women priests in the Old Testament in Israel nor were there any women apostles that our Lord chose to be those who would carry on the work that he gave them to do he mentioned RC sproule in his views well you probably didn't hear but about little over a year ago sproule changed his views on that and baptism as well he's now Baptist because you but no he did develop his views listen to what Chris Larson says who's the head of Ligonier ministries he said well he continued to develop over the course of his lifetime in tabletalk magazine in 2009 when he RC scroll was the executive director they published an article called female authority which says this when Paul says in today's passage what he says is that women are barred from preaching and teaching and worship not from every kind of speaking so we all grow and RC sproule grew in his awareness and understanding of what the scripture has to say on these issues with regard to the interpretation of the verses I would argue that we're not hinging our position on one verse certainly this verse is clear and it shouldn't be subject to the kind of debate that it is but nevertheless there are far more verses in 1st Timothy 2:12 I've referenced that and a flyover earlier but let me address the questions that Dwight rose arose raised about this in verse 9 likewise he says that women should adorn themselves not just without braided hair and golden pearls and costly attire but listen to the whole verse that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel with modesty and self-control what's Paul concerned about he's concerned about the inner life he's concerned about how Christian women ought to exude beauty from within and not externally we don't ignore that verse we teach that verse today there were cultural implications no doubt as to what constituted outward ostentatious displays for dress well we have that today as well and you know it when you see it right and Christian women are not to do that we don't neglect this verse what I think has to be addressed though is why in the world Paul would appeal to creation and to the fall if he's only talking about something that was a problem in that one place that's the question that I have not heard adequately answered at least not satisfactory to me as I've tried to read through the literature try to listen to my brothers and sisters on the other side of this why in the world did Paul simply not say I don't forbid I don't permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over men because there's a lot of craziness going on here in Ephesus with the Artemis cult and there were educated women in the first century so not all women were untaught and if the fact that Paul uses that as a reason to silence all women then maybe Paul is a misogynist why would he use the fact of some not being taught to silence all so I think that we need to do better exegesis of the actual words we have in the Bible to get to this question time thank you pastor asking would you please thank these gentlemen with me for an excellent beginning in this debate okay in this next series we'll begin with 15 minutes of questions from the affirmative side for the negative side starting with pastor mckissick thank you I don't know that I have 15 minutes worth of questions but I finally I'm sure everybody's ready to go eat - so I guess Westar number one and maybe the answers in how you define prophecy mm-hmm but correlate or contrast 1st Timothy 2:12 that's you see as a strict command for women not to address so to teach local congregation with first give us 11 5 well obviously the st. Paul allowed it and the st. Paul in Romans 16 they tell I'm sending you a woman to tell you some things and since she delivered the Roman a pistol for her not to reference it would be really stretch for me so kind of how do you reconcile those two things yeah I'm just I want to look at these verses do you have those you want to first Timothy 2:12 you are self a woman not two teeth that verse 11 5 about when we can pray and prophesy with the head come st. Paul's Roma 16 1 & 2 y'all received Phoebe receive her sister the Lord and she's coming to tell us on business and share some things with you how do you to me you can't make those texts fit okay drink a woman cannot address a Lord's Day worse all right let me read Romans 16:1 and to maybe that'll help I come in to you our sister Phoebe a servant of the churches in Syria that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the Saints and help her in whatever she may need from you for she has been a patron of many and of myself as well and I would say amen to all that but I don't think it has anything to do with teaching a congregation on the Lord's Day doctrinally okay but that's a thought but clearly she was empowered to do more than go bake cookies and those kinds of ministries he/she operating in his first serious role I don't like baking cookies is a bad thing for anybody to do well obviously I like cookies but there's a diversity of things women can do just as men at some time I think we relegate them to we limit them and a lot of churches to think such as that sure Jezebel the revelations I mean she could you said she's a you know she called herself a prophetess and cleared she talked false doctrine a clearly she was rebuked for false doctrine just as me and often are and I was judgment of punishment but I ain't of the house I'm now pastor who has this woman taught you that I think the word teaching is using that text teaching out of gather worship service which meant this was no horrible idea to the New Testament church full understanding teach and Jesus had an opportunity to there to rebuke the angel for allowing a woman to stand before congregation and teach no he addressed the content of a message not the container what's worse is it I think his revelation is to 18 through 23 perhaps yeah well one thing I would say is you know Jesus said to his disciples I have many things to say to you but you're not able to hear him so he didn't always say everything that he could have said in every situation and the fact that this woman was doing what she was doing here in the church is a horrible thing because of what she was teaching and he rebukes that and tells them to repent of that so I'm not overly worried that Jezebel who calls herself a prophetess and his teaching and seducing my service to practice sexual morality and eat food sacrificed adult idols wasn't called out because she was doing it as a woman and I think the fact that this is going on at all is sufficient for anyone to say this has got to stop no matter who's doing it you say he said God was displaying his goodness it's a paraphrase so if I get a little bit wrong correct me by denying women an opportunity to exercise their that gives one man a present with Charles Stanley getting saved in a worship service but a woman preaching God really would have been denying his goodness to the woman by restricting her from doing God really would have been denying his goodness to business Chris well for teaching girls building them up in the face I used to often listen to on a Sunday morning dr. Patterson himself allowed her to go to Concord Church in Dallas on a Sunday morning and deliver I'm gonna call it but nobody tweets that day yeah God was denying his goodness to women to Beth Moore is reaching people in phenomenal ways all over the world of what you're saying that would be God didn't seem like a stunning common sense on his head yeah well I understand it does feel that way but my response is that all of those things or experiences and we just have to be really careful not to let experience become more important to us than what the word actually says now I'm gonna get on some thin ice here because but I'm gonna apply it to myself because I do this regularly do I you know sometimes I feel like I'm the worst guy in the world to preach and I don't know what to say and how to preach but God's called me to preach I know that feeling okay here's what how I get encouraged myself I said well God spoke through Balaam's donkey maybe he can speak through me you know okay so Wow I'm not not doing anybody quote me saying I'm calling all these people you just cited that Balaam's donkey I'm not doing that I mean God does that God does things that are wonderful but those things that we have in our experiences should not be the final authority as to how we live in the church we have a book and our judge or our determination is to try to understand my good judgments from this book as to what God requires so that's what I wouldn't deny those experiences say praise God for them but when I'm figuring out how the churches operate I want to come back to the I just wanna go on record I permit I've been George's the conversation and a privilege to be here I don't firm that particular and I don't think you've been in there harm you're targeting but whole notion I think in this conversation of women preaches and balaam dunkey that tried really hard not to do that that's that's that's really sort of difficult for me to try to apply to myself and I'm certainly minute no ill waves one last question one last question there are many churches african-american churches particularly the south and the East Coast West Coast women preachers is just a common thing in churches it's not a lot of southern churches in Midwestern black churches still would not allow a woman to preach on a Lord's day of worship however many Helen Burroughs who worked great with Southern Baptists and phenomenal black Baptist woman in there maybe 1920s through I think I impact those up through the 60s she established something called Women's Day and it's not uncommon at all at least once a year the two churches I grew up in as a boy did not allow women to preach on the right and they would even call but once a year they would designate what they call Woman's Day and a woman could take over the preaching hour yeah I guess my question to you would be have a grown up seeing that my it wasn't controversial women loved it they felt affirmed and validated and value they get a great speaker and I would ask myself even as a kid growing up why would you allow this once a year and especially though that we're very good and not allow it two three four five other times yeah but I dare not ask the question because that was an authority but you would see that as in violation first Timothy 2:12 the scripture yes okay I see it as following in the model of Phoebe first Corinthians 11 5 the prophecy in acts 2:17 and I'm so grateful to have grown up in that tradition and to see the impact of that and I find it interesting that we rarely call out the men who have preached Beth Moore we were rally we will criticize the Adrian Rogers or W Chris well for them allowed women to perform wherever they'd rather perform with the co-ed audience but we will target a Beth war my final question astable would be just like conservative Christianity in the conservative Southern Baptists Christianity has been really radically wrong on several inches they were hyper complementarianism it says a woman cannot teach Hebrew at Dallas Theological Seminary to hold inerrancy when we were teaching Hebrew for years they have co-ed classes I with women taken preaching I set in dr. Ramos Spencer preaching class of Southwestern I was a student when he announced that not only did he affirmed women preachers not when the passes he embraced the Baptist faith in message but he introduced them to preach in class that day and I never will forget this statement he died with your so thereafter he said he would be glad to have this conversation with the trustee board a Southern Baptist Seminary I was as if he anticipated it that's that they're so proud of him because if you interpret scripture as he doesn't and I do it is oppressive and abusive and and no less sinful - they're not that woman that opportunity and Dallas is beginning to shift BTS wit co-ed class with professors a firm is soft complementarianism so this hard line complementarity and I appreciate you and my kid others some would take it to your stream calling the functional egalitarianism that was just us just was mislabelling and not being honest so I really appreciate you all not taking my position and and paint it to be something that it's not on the other hand if anything I have argued is true today how we're treating women how sherry Crowder was treated how certain women have been treated in classes that at Southwestern is no less sinful than how Southern Baptists treated blacks for many years when they made him sit outside classroom door that go to school at night at 19:45 if Dallas Theological is just as conservative in the narratives can be open mind in the scripture and allow women a much more expressive practice within Evangelic ilysm I don't I'm here I'm here as a prophet they say Southern Baptists need to be very careful adjustment of God may be upon us because I see our attitude identical to how Southern Baptist four years treated blacks that's all I got to say do you know me say anything okay yeah well you mentioned a lot of things in their delight and certainly all the horrible treatment of women and the way some of the women that you mentioned are all the way when you mentioned I don't know all of the situations but every time it's been mistreatment of women that's horrific and that's an important debate for us to have and you know we need we're you and I would agree completely on that we might disagree on what the solutions are or what the causes or background is see that but nevertheless yeah I abominate all of that and all of us should but you know you yourself said it so well that conservative churches have been wrong about a lot of things and you know that's the truth that's why we need to not rely upon our experiences or our judgments but we've just got to be so rigorously submissive to the word and let the word lead us wherever it will regardless and you know I know you're trying to do that I'm trying to do that as well and so these types of calm sessions I think are valuable I think of the once a year deal like you you know I wish you to ask the question you know see what the answer would have been when you're a kid because once a year in many churches today there's a Godin country service you know American flags flown and League Greenwoods song sung and it's hokey you know but it's done in a Lords day worship service and I say that's not right the Bible ought to regulate what happens every one of the Lord's days you know regardless of whatever else is on the calendar so I don't see those things at odds and I wouldn't see the the fact that we've been our churches have been wrong about things as a reason to jettison an exegetical argument from Scripture and I'm not suggesting you do that but I do think this is where we've got to make our case you know we got to deal with the actual words that God has inspired and do the best work we can and good people disagree obviously or we wouldn't be having this debate and you've cited a lot of guys and and they're scholars that have looked at these things and come up with different understanding of them but we ought to use them to try to help us understand what does God say has God spoken and where we get that that's where I want to be I know that's where you want to be but that's what's governed me I promise this is the last question I was in Atlanta last night and I won't go through the whole day of frustration and flights a lot of us have had those but it ended up but I don't know if they here today - Southern Baptist pastors in the Greater Dallas area we're riding together from Atlanta to Birmingham and they both were shocked to know for many many years this convention would not even allow a woman to vote I'm proud of was a Arkansas governor's wife who lobby for that change this convention has never have acknowledged how wrong and sinful that was to not allow them to vote in meeting but it's that same mindset they were fighting over the pulpit today I wish a cuz we I think we're far apart maybe what we practiced but in terms of being sincere about how we be Scripture I wish this convention what seriously though whether women I ask you for that not just a mere we did that and if we could apologize for blacks for the serious treatment that's taking place there we really Oh women apology for not just denying a vote but it other ways this whole sexual abuse thing I think is the judgment of God on Southern Baptists because once you devalue a woman that safety cannot preach on the Lord's Day and I think as much biblical support for that you're telling me and it's okay to abuser like document you know that's not true what one minute tenet to answer and then we'll move on to you yeah brother I just think that that's not right you know that's not right anybody who abuses women I don't care how many documents they signed saying that they believe in the inerrancy of Scripture they're liars okay they do not believe God's Word they're not practicing God's Word and it's certainly true in all the other scenarios that you cited as well well you're right if egalitarianism you see a lot of these - I would agree that but I mean it's if we all have blind spots and so we ought to be humble in trying to understand the scripture and welcome differing positions to refine our thinking but anybody who is following what the word says is not going to abuse women it's going to protect women and any woman who's following this isn't going to feel oppressed by doing what the Bible says they're going to rejoice in that okay we are going to move on to the next section then it will be the negative side which will be pastor a school then asking questions no here's a question I've been wanting to ask you because I do think okay I think I understand your position why would you allow a woman to preach engage in the function of pastoral ministry while denying her if I'm understanding right the role of being a pastor in church that you don't allow women to be pastor in the church right several things I think pastoring is a gift I don't believe that I don't have any quote-unquote women pastors on my staff but I think many function in shepherding and leading and carrying and carrying out if you teach if a one piece of Sunday School class as a lot of element of pastoring if you teach in fifth graders so that's number one I'm like Charles Taylor I separate the authority of the officer pastor from the function of preaching on like a 1689 confession I believe a body of elders can designate whoever they think it's fit the word is used in that next a gifted to preach to allow them to do so so I invite a lot of preachers to my church none of them come in as a pass though mm-hmm okay but would you say that God have you to come if you'd come with I'd be there tomorrow just don't preach just don't preach reformed theology you'll be all right possibly yes anything else you could preach you just took the Bible away from yeah so so the main would you say that as a pastor of the church I feel this way I say it's all the time my main responsibilities pastor is to preach the word so that's the primary well if you go to act 6 prayer which is a lot of us sure they all in but craft first and then the preaching kind of word but it's certainly hot I would definately with that yeah okay so if I understand you right then women have biblical warrant to engage in that activity in the church the preaching of the word you wouldn't find limitations as to what they could preach opposite well everybody come up just like I gave you limited right it's gonna have to be everybody to preach in anybody I wouldn't intentionally gonna anybody's pulpit matter of fact I read page pastors commentary on first Corinthians 14 before I preach the South listen up there anybody to read that and say it doesn't affirm the very sermon I preached there yeah well I'm so I got what you always come under the floor whatever you put in the confessional boundaries of whatever set there but there's no limitations as taking the text and preaching the text so you wouldn't mind a woman doing that once a month well I gotta keep my job okay but assume they will continue to pay you and your job would it be okay for a woman to do that I'm going to go question that I mean it's just something I haven't had to process process at that level but and all the preachers at our church they submit sermons to a senior pastor all my staff he reviewed their sermons and he'll tell them if it's off base or right but everybody preaches their comes under yeah authority do they do that to your sermons mmm generally not but they find some elements so this is just other folks that come in yeah okay got you well I'm just backing my questions yes so if they will hold me accountable they hear but if they've heard me say something that's been fine inappropriate they'll call you oh yeah they they've done that several times praise God for that all right it's good to have faithful elders isn't it so if it's okay for a woman to preach periodically on the Lord's Day my and my question is okay why not have a woman preach every Lord's Day in a church would that be an unhealthy thing like that's the birthday he was fighting Artemis and he was saying they have turned the creation order on his hair by led what's the bigger woman over there and having women dominate and do all the speaking of course there wasn't a a biblio Christos history church either they said we're not gonna follow that pattern over here but to say we're not gonna have women dominating and preaching over here is not to say she cannot ever well but if she can do it once why can't she do it all the time because it's not necessary well being a gift of to me in a call to that if the past is to be a male then if she preaches 52 Sunday when does he preach so why is a pastor to be a male where do you go I get it from first Timothy three the husband of one wife yeah and I get it from the creation I want in terms of me to see it okay so so the creation leadership that brings me on the next question in first Timothy 2:12 13 and 14 why do you think Paul appeals to creation and to the fall in order to give the reason why he does it not just one woman preach or teach but women in general well there are multiple ways interpretations and I'm reading books from some evangelical scholars who don't do it that way but I think Paul is directly addressing what is the if Ephesus is mentioned and he's an F first three of the first ever they want he as you know Christianity was new it was small it was not overly influential but worshiping Diana and the Temple at Ottawa it was huge if therefore influential and therefore women wore all this costly apparel they could afford it a short but if you evangelize and you can't afford you know this costly clothing as you mentioned it's not it wasn't healthy what was happening there so everything he said the first Timothy two is a direct response to what was going on in Ephesus with the Pope so my question would be how do you know that I know that but the same way we were taught biblical background hiss Darko dramatical understanding again will we get to this verse we won't treat it as verse nine I know that based on how we treat similar passage right it seems to me that's a dangerous hermeneutic that if we allow something outside of the scripture to determine the meaning of Scripture I agree with you yeah and that's why we got all these other verses that Paul spoke right that allows a woman to do it you know I just read SSM boss research on this and he's done the most extensive research on first century Ephesus and he says that the idea that the Artemis cult was influential in the culture of the city of Ephesus is bogus because it was a typical Greek Roman Helen City it was patriarchal in nature and so if that's true then that raises questions but but if you want to throw scholars on the table in T right Scott McKnight a lot of people would contradict what he says that's one thing about our discovered in Christianity you can always find two people yes which means we ought to stick with the text you know and that's exactly what I'm doing that's that's about quarter first with 11:5 let's reason I quoted Romans 16:1 or to every night quota X to 270 that's real I quote the very Paul who said these things they'll understand what problem in here yeah stick with Texas what did he mean in the other place yes yeah I get that what the I mean I'm thinking it would've been so easy for Paul to say I don't allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man because this Artemis cult has so impacted women in the culture and the ladies coming out of that into the church or bringing all their baggage with them well let's go back to what you said about Jesus of Jezebel he said Jesus did say at all that's right so just like Paul didn't make that statement about but cause of Artemis yeah Jesus didn't rebuke this woman because she was a woman that's right but he so that was implicit permission for how to do it as long as she was doing it the right way well but to use your logic and hermeneutics well I'm not quite sure that's accurate because Paul does give a reason Paul does give a reason and reiation yeah creation and which I agree crazy mean male is in charge right and so a what a woman teaching on a given Sunday it does not overturn that creation order Ottomans overturned it he said you cannot do that over here okay yeah what so your your reasons for not allowing a woman to be a pastor have to do with the limitation of pastoral role to men so that's what you're you're seeing in first 73 right I want to make sure I'm clear on that yes now again we I've been on church staff where if you're warming you were direct of your man you have pastor I've been on you know and I ran into that I was doing the same thing if I had a woman his role I called her direct if I had a man his role he became a pastor they get me this is just inconsistent it's the theme you down economic the men on my staff could claim a housing allowance the women could not again we're dealing with the same kind of sin yeah I guess women that we have practice against other people so I live just called them all ministers because we're all called administer so I guess I demoted to me and from being passed as beta ministers and made by elevated to women by making administers yeah but I think it can be a some I don't think is but one Moses one one lead of a church so as know our church Constitution requires that the senior part of the leader be a male beyond that function determines what whether you're a pastor or not not your title so I don't have a I mean I'm a church that refer to a woman as pastor Christian education past of youth pastor worship past or whatever I really it's nothing as long as the man is a pastime okay so like a senior password yes along the man so you passed it whether it you know if people on staff a label it's a it's a gift they have to have the gift of password to do that job which you don't think God gives the gift of senior pastor to women I don't believe he calls them assigns them to that because of the husband and one wife passage that and the creation okay yeah that's yeah well that's but I wasn't expecting that so this is helpful to me so with the creation order I think that's an important point that often gets lost in this debate and a lot of other debates in fact I think that Genesis 1:1 may be the most overlooked vitally important verse in all the world right now because this is God's world and he has ordered it and so I think when we get in line with his order that there's not any protest we're not gonna feel oppressed whatever God has prescribed is gonna be right and good for us and so the question is though how do we understand what he is prescribed so how does the creation order work in the realm of church leadership does it work and do you see it working in any other way other than who exercises authority or has Authority output you forget which words you used earlier that you see it that way because God created man first and there's a role there's a well you mentioned holding your presentation I think was God McKnight says Jeremih it was for prophets who written books in the Bible that were available to King Josiah when he called holder to speak for God right there you're saying she she was a prophecy could speak with just not on the Lord's Day that's your poll no I'm saying prophecy is fundamentally different than what I'm envisioning when we're talking about preaching because of that death Ellis taught a lot of people wrong dr. Jack great a little there's a lot of fun if prophecy is and I did a break says he's a cessationist so it doesn't exist but if prophecies were to say the first grades of 14-3 I believe a woman could do that in a day a week and do it on Sunday board and do it as holder yeah did it what do you think about that that definition and Exodus were Paul or where God tells Moses that he's going to make him like God to Aaron and Aaron will be his prophet and he will put his words in Aaron's mouth and Aaron will speak his words that to me seems like the clearest definition of prophecy from the Bible that we have that I don't disagree with the other thing you just say it I don't play that against first Corinthians 14:3 I don't see a country I've not seen the distinction maybe I'm snow well here's what how's that different no no yeah let me go ahead and I didn't I assumed what I shouldn't assume because these thoughts are going on in my head not yours but but the first time I ever heard that definition okay I mean that's that unique to you I wish it was but it's not no I got that from Obama Robertson I think years ago but okay final word I believes where he writes that but those words then become the in spose of the inspired words of God so when the prophets were speaking prophetically they were speaking the very words of God it was as inspired as any letter that Paul wrote that's in the New Testament so what were they speaking the first quiz is 14/3 oh well they were speaking prophecy they were speaking the very words of God so there was a good point years there was Authority what is your point my point is that there was a passivity to them like you and I have to sit down and look at the text and struggle and sweat try to understand what it means and then proclaim it but when God came upon to cause them to prophesy he is like he puts his words in them and they become his mouthpiece that's my understanding of that have you not prepared a message to just since God it's deadly quick description right right right but God inspiring you God oh yeah I thought afraid one sermon of a Sunday I meant to get here earlier but I didn't get to bed to three because I want to hear dr. marrows and I'm gonna preach on me in Sunday yeah and that's why you know now so that will not be God ever gonna be straight hand and never I'm glad you made the distinction so give me a sermon but there have been times many times when I'm preparing a message yeah and I believe God gave me the words that the thesis does the direction of that yeah message but I wouldn't dare suggest it neither the same thing Scripture oh absolutely not yeah that's my death that's my understanding prophesying how interesting prophecy to work okay with our first five-minute clothes we have dr. McKissack he has five minutes for his closing statement I want to give you back at least two of these my color statement would essentially be if we could sin Lottie Moon many other female missionaries just China Africa and other places organized churches plant churches disciple man preach them in they function in every exactly everything a pastor were doing pastoral care setting doctor parameters that a man would do just don't call it pastoring a Preeti Malladi moon quoted by Steve best nurse she made it very clear she preached to men and women what is the big problem a doctor see the inconsistency and I convention was sent a woman to do in foreign country Asia in Africa South America what they would not allow a woman to do here that's duplicity that's hypocrisy that's see and I believe God is correcting this disorder and the Word of God has straighten itself out even if it has to straighten itself out around our necks if some six eight eleven is right you're gonna be a great host of women coming preaching if actions 17 is right I believe we're living in the last of the last days that has started Pentecost there will be a great number of women who will be preaching and when we allow it overseas and we do everybody here knows that we allow it have a lot of time but don't allow it here practically what we saying it's all right for a woman to preach to people of color around the world just can't preach to white men over here that's what we're saying dr. Haskell you have five minutes for your closing statement well I wonder I want to reiterate my gratitude and esteem for white McKissack and appreciate having the conversation we were just saying that we need to have more conversations like this and a willingness to open the Bible together see what it has to say there's nothing that I've heard today from him that's caused me to lose any esteem or respect for you and I look forward to having further opportunities to engage with you fellowship with you obviously we disagree on what the word teaches about women preaching on the Lord's Day gathering Christ churches but that's why we had this debate the question that we've considered can be restated like this has God really said that women must not teach or exercise authority over men in the church this is nothing more than the echoes of Eden the devil is a wicked and wily enemy but his strategy for in sneering God's people is remarkably uncreated we have seen this play before if the devil can get God's people to doubt God's Word then he can lead us astray it worked in Eden the consequences were disastrous if it works in our churches today we should expect similar disaster the question of whether or not a church can have women preachers is not as important as the questions related to the gospel or the person of Christ or the Trinity and I refuse to say that anyone who disagrees on this issue for me is not a brother or a sister in the Lord that doesn't disqualify anyone from knowing Christ but this issue is not incidental it is important because as I've tried to show it does reflect how we understand the very nature of God's created order of men and women the nature of the church and the rules that Christ has given us by which we are to be ruled and the hermeneutic that we use when the Bible confronts us with teachings that go against contemporary cultural sensitivities and standards Rosaria Butterfield has rightly noted this she says we show our submission to God not only by what we do but also by the hermeneutic we use to interpret the Bible if we use a hermeneutic that declares we will obey God unless he asks us to do things that do not correspond with our cultural wisdom our personal experience or our heartfelt desire we are not honoring God God created the world with boundaries and distinctions the Sun is not the moon and the heavens are not the earth no matter how much the Sun might want to be the moon and believe it's capable of doing what the moon does God created it to be the Sun the same is true of men and women God created us with distinctions and boundaries and has done so for his glory and our flourishing it's no dishonor or loss at all for men to live as men and women to live as women and marriage God calls the man to lead by making him the head of his wife and instructing him to serve her with sacrificial love similarly in the church God calls qualified men to lead by serving as elders and pastors or overseers he also instructs who can teach restricts who can teach his word in the worship gatherings of the church in language that is unambiguous he says I do not permit a woman to teach her to exercise authority over a man rather she's to remain quiet for Adam was formed first and then Eve and Adam was not deceived but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor and let's be honest the question on women preachers is not something that God's Word is unclear about what God says is not unclear it's just unpopular my fear is that the reason that this is a debated issue among us today is because the world has been more effective into cycling believers in its ways then the church has been in deciphering believers in the ways of God given in the word if we give up what God has to say about preaching in the church being the exclusive responsibility of men then we cannot with any hermeneutical consistency limit the work of pastors to men the interpretive approach that allows for the former demands that we allow for the latter furthermore once we legitimize a hermeneutic that uses cultural context to dismiss principles that God has embedded in the created order then we must be prepared to see other culturally offensive biblical standards rejected again listen to Rose Area Butterfield today the raging issue is not feminism but sexuality and especially homosexuality and gay marriage I think these two issues feminism and sexuality are intimately linked as opposed and as imposed in a feminist worldview on gender roles in order to reject them this is the gateway to imposing a gay affirming worldview on biblical sexuality in order to reject it biblical gender roles in biblical marriage go together I agree with the warnings of Russell Moore that he issued back in 2005 the hermeneutical moves necessary to justify evangelical feminism cannot sustain the kind of confessional orthodoxy represented by the first generation of the Council of biblical equality as the movement explores more fully the theological presuppositions that make biblical equality possible we should expect to see more and more of a distance from evangelical orthodoxy on matters of God Christ's salvation and biblical revelation thank you dr. ask Oh would you please take these two gentlemen [Applause] I want to introduce two folks to you one that is representing with with pastor mckissick this is sherry Claudia and she is the associate professor of Bible and Semitic languages at Taylor University and she will be here to be able to ask the questions of dr. a school and then as well we have Jared longshore who is the associate pastor of First Baptist Church in Cape Coral Florida and as well with the sword and tower trowel broadcast that many of you are familiar with and we want to go ahead and lead off then with mr. cloud mrs. Claudette going ahead and asking dr. rascal we have three questions from each and you have one minute to respond for each participant teaching the Bible at all times in all places what if it is not the preaching time in church or at a denominational conference and similar question does first Timothy 2:11 to 14 apply to women gifted and preaching outside the gathering of the local church specifically can women preach the word at conferences with men present yeah okay thank you is it a sin for Minutemen to listen not certainly not to listen to women teach in every Sikh circumstance I would not say that can men learn from women who take God's Word and explain it yeah I think absolutely we see examples of that in Scripture Aquila and Priscilla facilities named first at times to talk about how they taught and instructed of policin so there's a general type of responsibility that all Christians have to teach one another and that doesn't have any kind of exclusivity to it the the text in 1st Timothy is in the context of Paul giving instructions about what he wants done in every place in the gathering of God's people in the churches and so I see this passage limited to those that's this Lord's Day gathering that's why we limited this discussion to that the other issues I think it has implications beyond that but what about conferences I mean you hear Johnny Erickson tada or Elizabeth Elliott teach you could learn something okay in a for Pastor McKissack that's because yes sir you've argued prophecy equates to preaching when Isaiah prophesied or preached his words were new and an errant divine revelation in your view when a woman preaches today are her words like Isaiah's new inerrant divine revelation absolutely not they are like Paul said in first Corinthians 14:3 therefore comfort of consolation if edification and I better say therefore exhortation or encouragement that's how New Testament gift of prophecy was conducted he says speak prophesized the highest gif he said and people understand what you're saying may come into the Lord so there's an evangelistic component to it later he talks about people learning why prophetic speech was going on so there's something you would learn I just got ahold of gyro Ellis book two or three days ago and I'm just eating it up but it amazes me how he unpacks prophecy I don't recall him saying he equated to preaching but the way he defines prophecy throughout the book would be very similar to preaching so no I don't accept what the exam verse is yes okay and for pastor a school next question another question here if men are the head of women and have authority over them by God's design at creation is its good is it God's intention for men to be eternally the head over women and women eternally submissive to men if not why not yeah that's a great question I don't know that I've thought about what the relationship will be because Jesus says you know that there's not going to be giving in marriage in heaven so obviously that dimension of maleness femaleness and coming together is going to be absent in the earth so I don't know I would just have to plead ignorance as to how that relationship between men and women is going to be manifested in eternity one thing I'm absolutely certain about is Dwight and I are going to agree yeah I would agree with that by the way well the very first people ever reached out of hand of friendship to me and I'm not I'm not I don't know how you knew existed buddy invited me Tom asked oh and I will never forget that and Tom buck I don't know if he's an audience now or not but those two men we found a lot we both face I think we've just our dog game with your face but those men have genuinely people asked me how do you give along with those fellas like those fellas because they love God he love God's Word they love me we just have disagreements all right okay and next question for pastor mckissick pastor mckissick you claim that paul in 1st Corinthians 14 was not saying that women should remain silent in the churches in general but that they cannot speak to bind the prophetic word but if a woman speaks prophecy today in your view is that not binding how do you reconcile these things absolutely not I mean well the command about women being silent is on the heels tongues interpretation and tongues interpretive being prophesied he said a spirit of the Prophet subject to the prophets all of that two or three speaking this must be interpret he's laying out some order and guidelines how this is to be done in the local church where there was a lot of disorder ultimately if a lady or man for that matter says lost is everybody sell their house moved to Russia in August somebody got to decide if that is that a binding prophecy there was no canon of scripture in place there right how there was one of the first people who magenta buys the Kevin description that's interest in a woman but so after luly's not he said when the shot is called as to whether or not the prophetic words ought to be binding upon a congregation there's like a resolution in SBC we all know it's not buying the time question for dr. hasslein well i think the bad faith of message is just it's not as strong as it could be on this and there's a historical reason for that so i'm not sure that that's i would have to say no i don't think that they are violating the baptist faith the message the way it's stated because it says the role of the pastor i think it's the actual language that is used there and the difficulty is that the bad news faith the message separates the role of the pastor from the function of the pastor and so it doesn't specifically say that the function of the pastor is limited to men but it says the role or their office of the pastor is limited to men and so that's kind of the part of the question I was having with why why would we be satisfied to let someone function do what pastors do when they are not qualified there we wouldn't then going to have them serve in the office of the pastor I would say because I don't think they're qualified to do that from the Bible no not personally but from the Bible and last question for Pastor McKissick pastor McKissick yes if a woman says that she is genuinely called by God to be a senior pastor and say even she's commissioned by her present senior pastor to serve as a senior pastor would you agree that she could do so and not be an error if you think she is an error how you would how would you tell her that she's not to be a senior pastor oh I don't see it as my personal responsibility to police her tell her she's in error I dislike the topic of a message gentlemen I think of John says say what do what should we do with therefore you see she don't belong to you it's not your job to do anything with it wouldn't be my job to go and tell an autonomous church how to handle a woman functioning in that capacity exegetically I'm not there I I just I'm not there but emotionally I am NOT going to interfere with a local church at that decision they make about about that so that's I would have it it by minding my own business thank you and would you please thank both of these two gentlemen for this afternoon's debate [Applause]

Channel: Founders Ministries

Views: 50,852

Rating: 4.7043738 out of 5

Keywords: reformed, reformed baptist, founders ministries, masculinity, biblical masculinity, biblical manhood, manhood, toxic masculinity, biblical man, christian life, christian, pastor, ministry, preaching, preacher, pastoral ministry, biblical ministry, biblical womanhood, sbc19, sbc, southernbaptistconvention, 2019 southern baptist convention, southern baptist, sbcam19, dwight mckissic, tom ascol, debate, women preaching, women pastors, women elders, should women preach, women in ministry

Id: ZEeSsmKrcwg

Length: 96min 29sec (5789 seconds)

Published: Wed Sep 11 2019