Women in Ministry - Dr. Sandra Richter

what privilege to have dr. Sandra Richter associate professor of Old Testament at Asbury Theological Seminary on the Wilmore campus share with us about the critical issue today of women in ministry I know you will give her your full and respectful and appreciative attention dr. Richter comes to share with us today thank you this all feels so formal it is it is good to be here and it's good to see so many familiar faces so that means let's see if you don't give me phone respectfully to Laura I think all these folks who are entering I was I was saying that it's kind of fun to come and teach on this topic because it's not officially something I'm an expert on so I can come and share my stuff and they have to clean up the mess so not kidding you you can be reassured that even though my PhD is an Old Testament and this topic is mostly am I not on sorry you got too far okay thank you so you can be confident that even though my PhD is an Old Testament I do have a Bible degree in undergrad and I do have a master's in theology and I am a woman so doesn't that qualify me joking just joking all right our topic is women and ministry as you can see on slide and although that's what the title reads we all know that the real issue here and the real point of debate is not women in ministry if it hadn't been for women in ministry over the last 2,000 years the church would have failed a long time ago what educational program would have succeeded without the backbone of the Christian Education Department what missions program would have succeeded without the thousands of women who have given up their lives to go to share the gospel what music program what you name the support program within the church and we all know that these are staffed primarily by women the issue really at hand and the point of debate has to do with women in leadership and women in pastoral leadership women in preaching and teaching roles in the church and in those positions having authority over men that's that's the rub now a few introductory remarks one of them is that I'm not as prepared as I would love to be so I'm going to be looking at my notes a good bit another introductory remark about folks who resist women in leadership or women in pastoral or teaching roles folks like the Presbyterian Church of America or the Orthodox Presbyterians or the Christian missionary alliance of the Southern Baptist are these people simply misogynists do they hate women are they bigots are they Archie Bunker incarnate I would say hardly granted every ideology that is espoused by any group of humans anywhere is going to have their Pharisees people who are simply finding a scriptural excuse for their personal biases and prejudices and we can find that in any denomination in any local congregation we can find that in this room probably we might be able to find it in each of us but generally the folks who resist women in positions of leadership and teaching are doing so out of respect for the authority of Scripture that's why the resistance because they see in Scripture a message that speaks against it and the fact that they are basing their opinions and their positions on Scripture I commend in fact I don't just commend it I aspire to be the same never do I want to be in a position where my doctrinal stance my perception of the character of God and of his mish is based on the cultural norms around me I never want to get in that spot I want to know that I am structuring my understanding of my calling and what it is I have been entrusted to do based on the eternal Word of God and so when it comes to scriptural authority I am with our brethren in those denominations the distinction is that I believe there is a message in scripture that teaches that teaches active teaches that women are to lead and women are to teach and women are to preach and that's what I'm coming to present to you today is what I think scripture says let me also preface my comments by saying I don't think that women in leadership is an essential of the Christian faith I will not break fellowship over this topic I have been a member of churches where I was not allowed on the platform and I would continue to do so because I will only break fellowship over essentials of the Christian faith and and this isn't one of them so those are all of my preparatory comments we are interested in finding out what scripture has to say because that's where we want to form our opinions we also don't want to follow a cultural drift which may I say I think many of the denominations who have changed their positions on women and leadership have changed them because of the cultural shift not because of a new message in scripture so I don't want to go there I back to the Bible so let's do just that what does scripture have to say about women in leadership a passage that is usually quoted when this discussion comes up is first Timothy chapter 2 11 through 15 and I will have most of the scriptures up on PowerPoint but I won't have all of them so it wouldn't hurt you to pull your Bibles out and and flip along it's also good to know that I'm not making them up that they're actually in there so let a woman quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness but I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man but to remain quiet for it was Adam who's first created and then Eve and it was not Adam who's deceived but the woman being quite deceived fell into transgression thank you but women shall be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint so as we take a look at this letter of Paul to his coworker and disciple Timothy we hear a very clear message about women in roles of authority and in teaching positions it is this passage probably more than any other that inspires our brothers and sisters and other denominations and other traditions to place limits on women in positions of leadership they will keep women from the preaching tasks forbid them on Elder boards forgive forbid them from chairing committees sometimes these rules actually become a comical if you've ever been a member of one of these churches because a woman might be allowed to sit on a committee but she wouldn't be allowed to chair the committee but of course the committee has authority over men who are serving in the church so you know it can get a little complicated or you'll have a Bible study that's primarily woman women so a woman can be teaching but what if a man chooses to show up you throw them out do you tell me can't come or do you pull the woman out of her position these are actual all real situations I've I've lived through it can get a little challenging so for those who come from these denominations you've seen the application of this passage and what we have here is a clear statement from Paul that women are not to teach not to exercise authority over men and when this passage is juxtaposed with another Pauline letter 1st Corinthians we see that women are actually not to speak publicly at all let the women keep silent in the churches where they are not permitted to speak but let them subject themselves just as the law also says and if they desire to learn anything let them ask their own husbands at home board is improper some of your translation we'll read it is shameful for a woman to speak in church so here we have the two primary biblical statements that have been cited in policies regarding excluding women from positions of leadership and positions of teaching both are Pauline both carry his authority and it seems perhaps we ought to just stop this discussion now and I should sit down because they're obviously men in the room if you will indulge me another half hour perhaps you'll let me stay up here see what we come up with um now this is what the scripture reads but if we jump just a few passages earlier in this same Pauline letter written to the same church we encounter another message but I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man and the man is the head of every woman and God is the head of Christ every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head but every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head for she is one and the same with her whose head is shaved I'm not sure I read that right but you've got it on the screen so what is going on Paul where is in chapter 14 women are told not to speak at all and reiterated they are not to speak at all it is shameful in chapter 11 women are praying and prophesying in the local congregation they are clearly speaking in fact they're prophesying now for those of you who have already had your intro to Old Testament you know that prophecy is not something that's taken lightly by this first century community these people have the ink is not yet dry on the old testament for this group and in the old testament to prophesy was the greatest possible yet in fact when individuals were identified for positions of leadership they were filled with the Holy Spirit and gave verbal utterance one example was numbers chapter 11 when Moses calls the elders to take on his mantle of leadership and help him administrate the community of faith and when he calls him forward and identifies them the Holy Spirit falls on them and they decide another example is Saul when he's called to be king the Holy Spirit comes on him and he prophesized now those are the exercising of the gift of prophecy there's also an office of prophecy in the Old Testament and the theocratic office of the Prophet in the Old Testament of the human offices that direct God's government over Israel there is no more powerful office the Prophet is the one who identifies the king the Prophet is the one who identifies when it's time for the King to be done the Prophet is the one who stands in the courtroom of the King and says you up on the throne you have offended Yahweh repent or get out of that chair so think in terms of when Saul was called into office by Samuel when Saul was ushered out of office by Samuel think in terms of the Bathsheba David Nathan incident when Nathan had the authority and the courage to stand in David's throne room and call him down publicly detailing his crime in front of his people there were armed men in that courtroom whose job was to defend David in his integrity I can guarantee you that in any other royal courtroom in the ancient Near East Nathan would have died where he stood but because of his authority as a prophet he not only speaks but it's David's the knee so the fact that these women are prophesying should give us pause and again whereas in chapter 14 Paul forbids the women to speak in chapter 11 he says when you speak in the congregation cover your head so what do we do with that I think I just skipped a slide I what do we do with that well we're gonna need to sort this out a little bit let me take one more passage Romans chapter 16 also palling also written to the churches also an epistle out of at the end of the book or the at the end of the the Epistle Paul does what he normally does which he concludes his letters with greetings to the various leaders in the church and of those leaders that he greets the people who are running the house churches and keeping the church alive and growing in Rome twenty nine people are greeted ten of them are women the first one and if you flip over to Roman's 6 you can follow along with this the first one I commend to you our sister Phoebe who is a servant of the church which is at Sanchi area now it was typical in this day and age that when someone came bearing a letter they had to be authorized and so for what Paul is doing is he's introducing his letter carrier and he's saying that Phoebe is my person this is my letter I did send it with her and she is a servant of the church the word servant here is the same word as deacons so he's identifying her as a Deaconess of the church Paul what are you doing to us here didn't you just tell us that women can't hold authority over a man and yet this woman is apparently a Deaconess verse 2 that you receive her in the lord in a manner worthy of the Saints and that you help her and whatever matter she may have need of for she herself has also been a helper of many and myself as well ok verse 3 he says greet priska which is short for priscilla and aquila my fellow workers in Christ Jesus fellow workers fellow yoke bearers these two apparently have shared Paul's tasks they have done what Paul does with him and Priscilla is the female member of this couple we go on and read who for my life risked their own necks to whom not only do I give thanks but also all the churches of the Gentiles and also greet the church that is in their house they're pastoring a church greet at the natives my beloved who is the convert to Christ from Asia now not only is priscilla listed and listed as a fellow laborer and as someone who's apparently pastoring a church if we flip back to chapter 18 of the book of Acts we read a little bit of the biography of priscilla and aquila and their ministry and in Acts chapter 18 verse 26 we read about a man named Apollo's who at least back when I was doing my undergraduate degree was a major possibility for the author of the book of Hebrews and Apollo's although a good man was apparently a little short-sighted in his theology in his biblical education and so it will start at verse 24 now a certain man named Apollo's an Alexandrian by birth an eloquent man came to Ephesus and he was mighty in the scriptures this man had been instructed in the way of the Lord and being fervent in spirit he was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus being acquainted only with the baptism of John and he began to speak and full out boldly in the synagogue's but when priscilla and aquila heard him they took him aside and explained exegete 'add narrated taught him the way of god more accurately so now paul is busy greeting priscilla who was not only a fellow laborer but she also specifically in the book is identified as someone who instructed a man an educated man in the scriptures and taught him how to preach morally now that enough gives me pause but then I noticed the order of the names and when it comes to the order of the names in this era and this part of the world this is a patriarchal world men get listed first women often don't get named at all there are really two possibilities for why her name comes first one is that she is of a higher class than Paul or than her husband Aquila and so Paul is justing her first but as Witherington has pointed out to me in the past Paul has never shown the slightest inkling of being interested in class distinctions within the church so that possibility sort of fades the other possibility and the one that is most likely is she is the more prominently involved in ministry of the two she is the lead personality she is the the one who is recognized as the better teacher the more influential teacher the one they want on the speaking circuit smore off her name is listed first and you notice in the rest of the epistles when Paul is listed with his partners it's always Paul's name that comes first that's the idea here with priscilla and aquila so now I'm confused again if we go on in Romans 16 greet Mary who's worked hard for me greet Andronicus and Junia s' now the name Junius has absolutely no a test station in the epigraphic evidence of the first century as far as we know the name male name does not exist but as a female named junior is the Latin equivalent of Johanna so the best evidence points to the idea that these two are a couple and that junior is a female and not only that he speaks of this couple and this woman as having been fellow-prisoners with him women were not frequently jailed in the first century she must have committed a great crime like pitching sedition against the Roman Empire outstanding among the Apostles and he makes the statement in verse 7 that outstanding among the apostles who were in Christ before me if they are in Christ before Paul they are probably from the Jerusalem church so from the very foundations of the Christian movement as you go through the chapter you bump into the remaining names the one that that I'm still interested in is in verse 13 Greek Rufus a choice man in the Lord also his mother and mine now this is not Paul's literal mother but apparently Rufus mother has served Paul in such a fashion that he speaks of her as an adopted mother so in Romans 16 again also written by Paul we wind up with all of these women being greeted as Deaconess apostles fellow laborers and pastors so what's the gig Paul if these women are not to teach or hold authority over a man why are you celebrating women who have done so in Rome so what am I gonna do well I'm gonna have to talk about hermeneutics I think do I just ditch my perception of the authority of the biblical text do I just say well it contradicts itself and so I'm gonna do what I want no you're not going to do that what you're gonna do is you're gonna get an elementary education in hermeneutics now you've got your IBS requirements and your exegesis of requirements ahead of you where you're gonna be hammered with the concepts of harmony niché's let me at least give you some introductory words first of all does anyone watch want to try to define the term permanet ik do we know what it means anyone brave enough yes sir perfect the principles of interpretation the science of interpreting scripture the laws of interpretation all of those things would be great and actually contrary to what most people in your congregations will think and what most people who are arguing against the truths of the gospel think there are laws interpreting Scripture you can't just make it up and the laws have to do with with certain things a major issue is is just laws of communication what did the author intend to communicate what are the author intend to communicate and how are you gonna do your very best to get back to that originally intended message well one thing you're gonna have to do is you can have to research the audience you're gonna have to be able to hear the words the way they were heard when they were first spoken you're gonna have to research the author but certainly you're gonna have to understand the language in which he or she wrote the idiom of their language the syntactical structure how they go about making propositions proposals arguments so grammatical laws will be dealt with socia logical realities store realities but after you've done all of that work oh and genre realities genre is critical in Old Testament stuff I I deal with the distinctions between wisdom literature history writing verses the potential of allegory and even myth in New Testaments a major genre you have to interact with is the genre of the epistle the genre of the epistle and all of the passages we've looked at so far have come from epistles which are letters written by authoritative figures in the early church to existing congregations so as we look at these passages especially in the epistles but throughout the New Testament we have to ask certain questions and one of them is the second bullet is the text you're looking at is the text you're reading reading intended to be a situational slash occasional slash particular choose the words you like best message or is it intended to be a normative text how do i define that term normative means a piece of instruction or a principle that is intended for all people not all people all believers of all times in all situations that's what normative means and one of the difficult tasks of interpreting Scripture is determining whether or not your text falls in the normative category now at one level all texts are normative let me give you an example at the end of Timothy actually we have a passage where Paul says to Timothy come before winter come as quickly as you can and please bring my cloak and he names the city in which he'd left it now all of us know instinctively that we are not called of God to go get Paul's cloak and bring it to him we all recognize that that's just intuitive we know that that is not a normative text for us right now but at a certain level it was normative to Timothy he is commanded asked to do this and he needs to respond bumping it up a notch now Timothy I know you're having trouble with your stomach don't drink water only from this point forward mix it with a little one this is like a letter from your mom at college the allergy medicine you brought you know does not work best and fall switch to the other allergy medicine for fall and use the one you're using now in the spring okay mom I got it it's normative at a certain level for that it's particular to that situation but it doesn't apply to all believers of all times and I'm gonna make the argument to you that what we see in first Timothy chapter 2 and what we see in first glance 14 fall into the situational / occasional category and that they were not intended by Paul to be normative for all believers of all times that's why he can turn around in Chapter 11 and contradict himself that's why he can turn around in Romans chapter 16 and greet 10 women of stature who exercised authority over the church and not be a schizophrenic that's why we can still have confidence in him if we are willing to allow him the opportunity to write at different levels of normative mnestheus to the church now that's the proposal I'm gonna make to you and I'm asking you the question did Paul intend these passages these two key passages to apply to all women in all times that's the question you're holding in your mind I would like to turn now to some passages that address love women in leadership in authority in preaching and teaching ministries that I do think are intended to be normative so Galatians will start right there in chapter 3 verses 26 through 29 now the context of this chapter is the context of Paul to explain to the Galatians the relationship between the old covenant and the new you can't get a whole lot more foundational in the theology of the early church than this questions problem he is addressing the nature of our obligation as New Covenant believers to the law of the Old Covenant that's the topic at hand he's addressing the role of Christ as mediator in the midst of that relationship this is heavy this is pivotal this is critical stuff so what does he have to say addressing these folks this mixed congregation or you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus now I've highlighted the word son and I've highlighted it for a reason in the Greek of the New Testament there is a general term for children now this is not true in Hebrew if I wanted to address a mixed group of offspring in Hebrew I would say I would say Benina I would speak of sons and you would do that in Spanish too it would be your Manos and we know that includes that is that no no so I gots brothers it would address female and male you just take them Laurel and addresses both that's true of Hebrew it's true of a lot of languages it is true at a level in Greek but there is a word that is used frequently in the New Testament for children Paul I think intentionally chooses not to use children and there's a reason he uses sons for you are all speaking to a mixed group sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus for all of you were baptized into Christ and you've clothed yourselves in Christ therefore there is neither Jew nor Greek neither slave nor free man there's neither male nor female he's chosen the word sons to address the gender distinction for you are all one in Christ Jesus and if you belong to Christ then you are Abraham's offspring heirs according to the promise why do I think he uses the word sons here in to children well in Galatia as in the Old Testament only sons could inherit this is a patriarchal society only sons could inherit so if you are to be an heir you have to be male it's only in very extreme situations in the Old Testament where women inherit equally so slaves could not inherit and equally so a Gentile could not be an offspring of Abraham duh that is self-explanatory so I think he uses the word sons because he's going to talk about the inheritance that was promised to the male offspring of Abraham and yet he is going to incorporate into that group Gentiles slaves and females so he is making the statement here very clearly that in the body of Christ in the body of believers the inheritors of the Covenant promises are without gender distinction or other sanctions but we're interested in gender here so male and female equally inherit the gifts of the New Covenant you guys with me here are we are we in trouble yet okay I think we can all see that point now one of the most outstanding aspects of the inheritance of the New Covenant especially for one who stood in time and stepped from the Old Covenant into the new would be the infilling of the Holy Spirit an Old Covenant believer could hardly fathom the concept that the presence that dwelt in the Holy of Holies would come and indwell me this blows the socks off an Old Covenant believer but this is one of the primary promises of the New Covenant now you are aware now if you weren't before that the infilling of the Holy Spirit under the Old Covenant was reserved for people with specific offices Kings were considered in filled with the Holy Spirit prophets judges I have a little article that I did for the Asbury Herald that I've just now forwarded to Steve and he can post on your icon it's very user friendly it's got pictures but it talks it traces the infilling of the spirit from Eden to the New Jerusalem this this is your inheritance church the infilling of the Holy Spirit so in the Old Covenant again only those who held positions of leadership were in filled that's them's just the facts ma'am and then of course the prophet in his profound and her profound level of influence in the government of Israel was in filled with the spirit as well judges Kings prophets elders to name a few so what we see in the Old Covenant is that only those in specific office and specific offices of leadership experience the infilling what we see with the promise of the New Covenant is that all believers will be filled so in Acts chapter 2 verses 1 through 4 the church is born and the gifts of the New Covenant are distributed so here we go and when the day of Pentecost had come they were all together in one place I've highlighted they because if you skip back to acts 1 verse 14 the text makes it crystal clear that there are women in the room they were all together in one place and Slee there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind and it filled the whole house where they were sitting and there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves and they rested on each one of them and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and they began to give verbal utterance to speak with other tongues as the spirit was giving them utterance now all of the hallmarks of that in filling in Jerusalem in Acts chapter 2 are the hallmarks that go with the dedication of the tabernacle and the dedication of the temple if you go back to the of Exodus and go to first Kings 8 you will see that the mighty rushing wind and the flame and the smoke these were the signs that God had come to indwell the temple in the tabernacle so he is shouting at this audience that the same spirit that dwelt in the Holy of Holies has come to in fill the members of the New Covenant now one paragraph later Peter takes his stand to explain to the crowds gathered what the heck is going on here so Peter the head of the disciples the ringleader of this new sect taking his stand with the eleven I love that language reminds me kind of a Luke Skywalker and his lightsaber ready to go okay sorry he raised his voice and he declared to them men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem let this be known to you and give heed to my words for these men are not drunk as you suppose for it is only the third hour the day but this is what was spoken of through the Prophet Joel and it shall be in the last days God says that I will pour forth my spirit upon all humanity your sons and your daughters shall prophesy your young men shall see visions your old men shall dream dreams even upon my bondslaves both men and women I will in those days pour forth of my spirit and they shall prophesy now you know a little bit about prophesying now and you know that it was considered either a mark of installation into an office of leadership or it was the unique privilege of the one who was called to act and speak for the deity in fact the closest parallel we have that the theocratic prophet of the Old Testament is the preacher of the New Testaments so we have in these texts that are clearly normative clearly intended for every believer at all time the communique that women too will be filled with the spirit not only will they be filled but they will speak they will prophesy they will instruct so where does that get us well we got this infilling of the Spirit those that are naysayers regarding women actually preaching teaching being ordained would say well women were unfilled for the for the cause of redemption and restoration but they're not infilled for the task of preaching and the task of leading that would be the distinction here so how do we answer that well let's go back again to Paul in first Corinthians 12 contains 12 through 14 is a treatise on how the gifts of the Holy Spirit are supposed to function in a local church that's what it is it's a little tract basically and it starts off listing all the gifts and then teaching the congregation how to use them notice that sandwiched between 12 and 14 is 1st Corinthians 13 which is the love chapter yeah this is not about being fancy and important and having a really great speaking schedule and having everybody admire you the gifts of the Spirit are supposed to be used for the task of love it's sandwiched right in between for a reason but let's start with 1st Corinthians 12 now concerning spiritual gifts brethren I don't want you to be unaware jumping down there are varieties of gifts but the same spirit they're varieties and ministries but the same Lord there are varieties of effects but the same God who works all things and all persons but to each one is given the manifestation of the spirit for the common good for the one is given the word of wisdom to the Spirit another the word of knowledge according to the same spirit to another faith by the same spirit and to another gifts of healing by the one spirit do you think Paul has a point here about the one spirit who's in charge of the distribution of the gifts and to another the effecting of miracles and to another prophecy and to another the distinguishing of spirits but one in the same spirit works all these things distributing for each one individually just as he wills or even as the body is one and yet has many members and all the members of the body though they are many are one so also is Christ for by one spirit we were all baptized into one whether Jews or Greeks whether slaves are free we were all made to drink of one spirit to hear the echo of the Galatians language for the body is not one member but many I would make the argument that this has some normative application as well so what do we learn here from these texts that we've explored we have seen men and women inherit the gifts of the New Covenant in equal fashion I don't think anyone would argue about that we see that both are granted the ax men filling of the Spirit in order to empower them for service service which in the Old Covenant was most typically leadership I think of the language of a kingdom of priests each one of us has been given what was so unique in the Old Testament an office an office to serve so now we need to ask how these gifts are distributed who gets what gift then do women get gifts of preaching and teaching and leadership is there a distinction in how the Spirit empowers individual members of the body of Christ part of the answer is right here in 1st Corinthians 12 part of the answer we're gonna see in Ephesians 14 in our next passage but as we read through Paul's presentation in this tract 8 this 12 through 14 what we see is one it is the spirit who gets to decide who gets which gift I think that's really clear it's not you it's not me it's not Wayne Grudem it's the spirit and for those who've read the literature you're chuckling all right it is the body's job the body's job to honor the gifting that the Holy Spirit has chosen and it is the body's task if you read all of 1st Corinthians 12 to honor and facilitate the gifting that the Holy Spirit has distributed and when we get to chapter 14 which we will in a moment we see that our job is also not to compete with each other you have been given a gift to build up the kingdom build the kingdom don't let anyone get in your way but don't compete with each other either build the kingdom don't allow your gift let me say it another way don't allow the kingdom to be hindered by failing to use your gift and what about Ephesians 4 there is one body in one spirit same emphasis Paul just as also you were called in one hope of your calling one Lord one faith one baptism one God and Father who's over all through all and in all Paul's got a point but to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift and he gave some as apostles prophets evangelists pastors teachers for what purpose the equipping of the Saints for the work of service to the building up of the body of Christ until we all attain to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God to a mature man to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ your gifting my gifting is a matter of God's administration his management of his body he is entrusted gifts to each one of us so that we can serve each other and serve the church he's done the choosing your job is to do the faithful serving in order that the kingdom may be built so with those normative texts in mind it would seem that if God has chosen to gift a woman with the gift of preaching it is my job to support her in that gifting I don't have the authority to give her a different gift or to call her gift into question not by those texts that we've just reviewed rather my task would be to support her in that gifting and to facilitate that gifting that's what I would see but what then do we do with our original scriptures do we get to just toss them out they are the Canon within the Canon that doesn't count no I don't think so but what we do need to do is we need to spend at least a few minutes trying to understand why they're there and what they were intending to communicate so let me start with first Timothy two and give you at least some insight for this passage this passage that tells women I do not allow a woman to teach her exercise of authority over a man but to remain quiet and then ties it back to creation which is difficult for all exegetes well let me start off by contextualizing this epistle first of all I'm recognizing that genre is an epistle it's a letter written from Paul to Timothy I've got I know that I'm missing half the conversation taking that into account let me contextualize the letter Timothy is at Ephesus according to verse three of chapter one the reason that Timothy is at Ephesus is because Ephesus is struggling with false teachers false teachers who are taking over the house churches at Ephesus and are busy deconstructing the work that Paul and others have given their lives to found so verse three says as I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia remain on at Ephesus in order that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines if I span down through this paragraph for some men straying from these things have turned aside to fruitless discussion wanting to be teachers of the law even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions would be great if we could write letters like that now preach sermons like that yeah we'd get fired okay um so Timothy's there because there's a problem with false teaching the whole letter basically deals with false teachers and Timothy's role in Ephesus is to stop the activity these false teachers that's why he's there you may have noticed that Tim the the first book of Timothy doesn't have a greeting and it doesn't have a salutation at the end paul is cutting to business because there's trouble brewing and the trouble that's brewing as we go through the letter is happening because these false teachers have a apparently use their influence to seduce a certain group of young widows who are in the churches who have a lot of free time on their hands because they're being supported the church because their widows but they're young enough and energetic enough that they have a little too much free time on their hands and so they have become the disciples of these trusts false teachers and they are helping go from house to house church to spread foolish talk things about which they should not speak according to Paul so the problem here is false teaching that is in this particular context being propagated by a certain group of young widows so Paul is suggesting that Lucian here is that these women step out of the newly-formed cult that is taking place and retake their standard place in society so chapter 2 talks all about corralling these women and getting them out of positions of authority and silencing them chapter 5 talks all about okay now it's time to identify who are really widows who should really be supported by the church and who young widows under sixty specifically should go back remarry have children and retake her place in society this is Paul's suggested solution to the problem at Ephesus in other words the focus of this problem is not women the focus of this problem are people who are propagating false doctrine because they are too uneducated or undereducated to know the difference why does he tie it back to even Adam I think he ties it back to even Adam in the way that he does I think he's actually quoting the wisdom of Sirach there's an allusion here it's a sucker full book and intertestamental peace but in the the situation in the garden Eve was the one who was deceived and the theory here is that it was Adam who was actually taught the word by God Eve was operating on hearsay Eve got deceived therefore she was vulnerable was vulnerable that's why she got deceived and Paul is using this as an illustration does he tie this back to the creation ordinance well folks most of the commentators you know what they have to say this little paragraph I have no idea what Paul is doing that's the general consensus on this piece I have no idea what Paul is doing so if we have no idea what Paul is doing it's probably not a good idea to hang major policies and doctrines on this business about the Eve and Adam piece but the kicker of all this for me the kicker about this particular passage is that occasional as is it normative is going back to that story about priscilla and aquila in acts 18 did you notice where Apollo's was preaching now a certain Jew named Apollo's and Alexandrian by birth an eloquent man came to Ephesus and he was mighty in the scriptures where does Priscilla call him down and instruct him in the Full Gospel in Timothy's church and she is commended for doing it so if Priscilla is operating in her teaching gift even in Ephesus apparently the problem in Timothy was very particular to this time this moment and I would say this is an occasional command as opposed to a normative alright what about the next and last one about women keeping silent in the churches this one's really intriguing because everybody everybody says that verses 34 and 35 are really a problem everyone recognizes that these verses intrude on the larger argument the larger argument is all about tongues how tongues should exercise in the church and the first chunk of verses is Paul encouraging them not to override each other not to compete with each other not to confuse public worship by 18,000 messages and tongues but let's limit it to three messages let each prophet take his turn make sure the tongues are interpreted and from goodness sake folks don't elbow each other out of an opportunity to speak rather he even makes a statement what is the end result when you all come together each one has verse 26 what is the outcome then brethren when you assemble let each one have a psalm a teaching a revelation a tongue and interpretation let all things be done for edification that's his introduction and then right in the middle of that argument let the women keep silent in the churches and they're not permitted to speak but let them subject themselves just as the law also says and if they desire to learn anything let them ask their own husbands at home for it is shameful and proper for a woman to speak in church and then Paul goes back after that and makes this statement was it from you that the Word of God first went forth or has it come from you only or come to you only and he goes back to his argument about tongues and letting folks take turns and let all things be done properly in an order so what if folks do with me with with this interruption of these two verses there are two big theories they're probably more I'll give it to you in a nutshell one is that these words are not Pauline that these are not Paul's thoughts that these are not Paul's words and that in reality this started off as what's called a marginal note in the old manuscripts they would write commentary notes in the margins we have lots of evidence for this in the New Testament and some evidence in the old where people would explain a passage in the margins and every once in a while a sleepy scribe who's getting to the end of his day interpolated brought the margin note into the text it's a scribal error this is the argument of Gordon fee and he doesn't just make it based on the idea that it interrupts the argument he makes it based on the fact that there are there's two pools of evidence regarding this epistle this chapter the Eastern evidence and the Western evidence these are the textual manuscripts that stand behind your final New Testament your your Nestle ilan version that you're learning to read Greek from in the West let me get this right this passage comes at the very end of the chapter so after Paul finishes his whole argument let all things be done properly in orderly fashion let the women keep silent churches the Eastern evidence is what we have in turn we have inherited and this passage falls right in the middle of his conclusions fee makes the argument that these passages interrupt the argument the fact that the passage has moved around within the chapter and it no difference because they are not connected to the larger argument so it doesn't matter if they come earlier or later either place there an interruption he goes on as by the way a world-class text critic to saying this is an interpolation and if you want to look at it up further Gordon fee his commentary on first Corinthians he details it at great length he summarizes it in his magnum opus God's empowering presence the spirit in the Pauline epistles you can get it either places what's the other treatment of this passage gilbertville Deacon would be representative of this peace he's he's been an advocate for women's ordination for a long time and he's summarizing other folks argument but he points out that the substance of Paul's argument is don't compete with each other don't silence each other be polite and then all of a sudden he comes in with this very harsh statement which actually no church affirms everyone allows a woman to speak in church even if it's only giving announcements or singing the songs everyone at least allows speaking but his point is that this very harsh statement and let me just read the quote there he makes the point that let me get this right that Paul is actually quoting the opposition that what Paul is doing is pulling in a quotation from what Bell Zekey and hypothesizes are the Judy I who because of synagogue practice want to silence the women and therefore silence half the competition if the women are loud allowed to speak then half of those who would want to give messages and tongues are of those who'd want to give a prophecy don't get to speak so his argument is this is a quotation of the opposition and then Paul comes back and says was it from you that the Word of God first went or has it come to you only verse 37 if anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual let him recognize that the things I write to you are the Lord's commandment and if anyone does not recognize this he is not recognized so the argument as we look at this whole passage is the argument of of this being a sarcastic quotation of the opposition and because there is no punctuation in the earliest rips the the things that would have identified it as a quotation of the opposition have gotten lost along the way so those are two ways of dealing with it where do we wind up with all of this where do I wind up and again this is not an essential to Christian faith this is not worth being martyred over however this is where I wind up I think that the normative texts communicate to us that all believers are equal inheritors of the gifts of the New Covenant I think that's very clear regardless of gender one of the most outstanding of those gifts is the infilling of the whole three in the Old Testament and the new the only reason we know for the infilling of the Holy Spirit the only purpose the only function for that is empowerment to serve let me rephrase that actually being filling is also transformation and the like but a primary reason for the infilling is empowerment to serve first Corinthians 12 makes it very clear that it is God who chooses who is gifted and how first Corinthians 12 and for Ephesians 4 make it clear that this gifting is intended to grow the church that's why we are gifted hence the age-old question what am I called to do the best answer you can find is what are you gifted to do and if a woman is gifted to lead or to teach if the Holy Spirit has entrusted that gift to her what should we do I think we should support her so that's a summary I know we want to do a few question and answers we've got four minutes by that clock maybe a few more they all think yes ma'am as a woman I've encountered people that simply don't want to hear what the others how would you answer them it would depend on my context if I were just in a table debate and we were on equal footing I didn't make him listen if I were appointed to a church as a servant of that congregation I would serve with such excellence that my gifting would silence their opposition and that is how I have primarily chosen to deal with the topic I very very rarely speak on women in ministry I just be one and I have more times than I can count had a wonderful elderly brother in the Lord approached me and quietly tell me that I was the best argument for women in ministry that he's heard and I consider that a profound compliment you be excellent at what you do hear the word of Proverbs that a person's gift will make room for her in the gates and it will and God will be faithful our job as women is not to make this argument it's to live this argument and it's much more effective yes there's the argument for women the arguments for women not to be in ministry just rely on the simple fact that those verses are there or is there a deeper argument that as you have done with the verse mm-hmm with with the text bring the same text with you know different options trying to emphasize it as as normative or yes and the reason I quoted wayne grudem's name is he has how many pages is in the book 400 pages arguing the other side and he exegetes passages with great care he would make the arguments so there are so many many will go back to creation and attempt to use Genesis 2 as an argument for women being set under the authority of men the problem with that is this one is the creation account that actually deals with authority and in Genesis 1 women are placed on equal footing but they would use Genesis 2 they would clarify look Timothy is clear first corinthians 14 is clear how can you argue against it and i've given you an argument against it but obviously it's not ironclad it depends on our understandings of normative 'no spur tickle arity there's also a huge cultural undercurrent the context of ministry for millennia has the context of society from millennia has been that it's men who lead and it's women who follow and so the fact that Jesus and the New Testament writers actually opposed that on certain fronts is profound in fact that is an even louder argument the fact that they were bucking the system at all shows a tremendous shift in the cultural tide folks romans 16 worked very hard to make as many of those names masculine as possible the Deaconess reference with Phoebe folks who make the statement oh she's just serving like anyone else would serve we shouldn't take the technical sense this this is not an argument that you can win just on the evidence I also couldn't help to notice that many of the citations of women are made with women together with spouses mm-hmm you can assume that their spouses and then the the problem in one of the tanks with the women were the were the widows yes that were not with spouses right would people argue that a single woman couldn't serve exactly well they could until they got to first Corinthians 7 where Paul celebrates the idea of celibacy and and service in a celibate fashion I I think it is natural that husbands and wives would serve together and I think it's it's good and it grieves me when I see husband and wives appointed to different churches so I think it was probably natural for them as well what's unnatural is that the women are are not just there to cook and carry baggage um that they're actually teaching but it's is there more no it's just I don't of course I don't have any any deeper knowledge of and just I just couldn't help noticing those those those little things I've actually I've I my question comes just because I'm not that I don't not that I don't believe in single men or women being in ministry but I do defend the idea that when you when you do have a spouse or are together as a married couple that ministry cannot depart hmm and that it should be done together I don't have the correct arguments for that it's just personal belief well and once you make the woman in ministry the wife of a man or the wife of a man in ministry there's new layers of rules that are added to this mix as well as as I can speak with all sorts of authority so yes it because it does become more complicated there you know once the match factor is is brought in as well and there are different rules about submission within marriage then there are simply as a woman serving on the staff of a church and I actually use that loaded word submission and and I would make the argument well I would make the argument that every marriage is the third party there's a man there's a woman and there's a marriage and that third party has to grow and mature itself and every husband and wife sort out how they're gonna handle that stuff and in many ways there be dragons there that's your territory my husband and I have worked out a lot of it by gifting again his gifts are much of what he does my gifts are much of what I do kind of like this model but that might not work for every couple I'm rambling someone else go right here well you kind of went hitting on it but I know the other side argues strongly from the position of hold equality but the roles and could you just comment a little bit on that from this side yeah well the roles I think is a that's why the first Corinthians 12:14 discussion I think is so important that the gifting of the Holy Spirit is intended to empower you to service so when the Holy Spirit uses to give to you who are you or me to say sorry that's not the gift that my denominational polity recognizes so yes I know that argument and and again they try to work from the creation order a lot and I'd have to be here kind of four weeks to argue against that one because there's they are reading into Genesis 2 as we talked about an Old Testament they're asking questions of the text that the text did not intend to answer they're looking for dinosaurs in chapter 1 would be the parallel but that that's why I think first Corinthians 12 is so important who chooses what the now if a woman fee even makes a statement in one of his commentaries if there'd never been a woman who is gifted to preach we're done with this discussion but there are some women who are phenomenal preachers are we going to silence them even though the Holy Spirit has gifted them I saw another hand over here yes I had one professor who felt like the first Corinthians 12 text was normative because the command is tied to the law Oh pushpins 14 14 right I just wanted your comment on the tying it to the law aspecting that's one of the things that's so interesting most the commentators will point out that this is the only place where loss where Paul says in all the churches and according to the law that those references can't be found in any other epistles he will speak in the church but in all the churches this is the only place there's that sort of reference to some sort of policy that we don't know about and when he refers to the law he always attaches the law to some certain scriptural passage and then exegetes it's for his audience and exegetes it with a mind toward this is how it applied in the Old Covenant this is how it applies in the new so it is actually that reference to the law that makes many of the commentators say there's something fishy here this is not something Paul would say and hence the argument that these might not be his words we go from Paul and women actually involved in ministry to a short time later in history where women are not involved are there any extra biblical sources that help us explain that decline other than Dan Brown oh that when the church was birthed we had all of these women involved and then they they disappeared that were you saying well they've been all sorts of cultural studies on this because it's not just the the early church you name the denomination if there's a denomination out originally ordained women as they get into their second and third generations the women disappear the Assemblies of God is a denomination that nurtured me for a long time I had credentials with them they have always ordained women and in their initial birth there were women in many pulpits but comes second to third generation the women disappeared and the argument is according to the sociologists that when a denomination is born it's typically born by evangelistic fervor and the people who join that denomination are by definition from the other side of the tracks and especially with the Assemblies you know the Azusa Street revival z' and all the crazy stuff that we were all doing I wasn't it Azusa Street I'm not that old so in those that initial flow of the Holy Spirit they recognized the act of the Holy Spirit and as God was gifting women let them serve but as the denomination becomes more socially acceptable it begins to adopt the norms of its culture and for the assemblies they were a blue-collar movement and the blue-collar cultural swath of the 20s 30s 40s was that women did not lead women stayed home and so the women disappeared now what's intriguing is for the Assemblies it's happening now in trickles and streams women are coming back and coming back to positions of leadership compare that with the UM where women are actually coming a dominant voice now part of that I think is because the UM has gone through so many generations now that they have you know forgotten any problems with women in leadership but they've also gotten to the place where forgive me they are hearing the cry of culture more loudly as a denomination and they're hearing the cry of Scripture so for the Assemblies they're coming back to an original stance following their culture and the culture of the day other denominations who did not ordain women initially are struggling with it because the voice of culture but I'm rambling again sorry yeah I'm two quick questions that because that verse that fella was talking about um the one about in all the churches that's one that I have gotten hung up on my life and the question would be that you just said that it might possibly not be possible more but then even if it's not Paul speaking does that make it not Scripture and what do you do it and then do you think it's actually possible to approach this question without an agenda because I know I could argue either side either day of the week and I could have really strong arguments for each and it just seems like in researching it even if you don't mean to you go into it with an agenda you're going to find support for your argument so how can you go against that or is it possible the first answer to your question even if these aren't piles of words aren't they scrap the discipline of text criticism which if you guys go forward in your language study you'll be exposed to if this is an interpolation no it's not Scripture it it is something that needs to be stricken from the text so if Gordon fee is right no this is a commentary on the part of some early commentator who I'm sure love God and intended for good things to happen but it it shouldn't be canon if it is Paul quoting the opposition then yes it is Scripture but it's a it's a genre question like with wisdom literature if you pull a verse out of the middle of the book of Job and found find it the passage why should you fear God it's all stupidity and vanity you need to know that the book of Job is arguing against that statement you know understand context in genre so if this is Paul quoting the opposition we need to know that he's arguing against that position and yes a description at which it becomes Canon because couldn't you I'm just like playing devil's advocate here couldn't you argue that even that comment was within the holy spirit do you know that I mean it doesn't necessarily that God couldn't have chosen to add on to it and so where does that where is the point at which it's no longer like this is where the Bible is set and I guess that's more historical well it's a huge question so I can't answer all of it but the interpolation our standards of exegesis being a conservative Wesley Armenian group would be if this is proven to be an interpolation we toss it but if it is a sarcastic aside a quotation of the enemy it's just a rhetorical device and so it makes the point far better in Paul's opinion than he could have made it any other way so it is canon and it speaks through its it's contradictory stance the other question argue in your own position yes how do you avoid your own position your own perspective you can't but you can do your very very best to be honest with the text you can approach the text with the attitude of I am subject to the text it is not subject to me I will structure my life based on what God has told me not the other when you approach with that level of humility you're in much you are much more likely to come up with God's message than your own and as we've already seen you can hear the voice of either position in in these texts it becomes a question of politics but the problem that those who want if you're going to let first Corinthians 14 stand as it is and first Timothy 2 stand as it is now you have to grapple with why Paul did not practice what he preached and that is to me a much more serious question than the problem of levels of normative myths you guys are over time bless you and thank you [Applause]

Channel: Asbury Theological Seminary

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Length: 73min 16sec (4396 seconds)

Published: Mon Mar 05 2018