Women Pastors: A Biblical Perspective (Doug Batchelor)

you it's been 2,000 years since the glorious light of the cross illuminated a world veiled in darkness and confusion about the character of God and still today the greatest need of mankind is a revelation of God's love as revealed on the life of Christ amazing facts presents the everlasting gospel with Pastor Doug Batchelor coming to you each week from Sacramento Central Church in sunny California discover hidden treasures in God's Word today I'd like for you to pray that the Lord will take charge of this service today and and that the truth will be very clear and what's presented and that it will be his truth also pray that you pray for me that I could present it this is a what's the word for it a volatile subject I want to generate more light than heat not everybody here I'm sure is going to agree with my understanding and my interpretation of these passages we're going to consider but I want you to all be good anyway okay you can disagree don't be disagreeable our message today is on the subject of women pastors a biblical perspective I'm sure the people on both sides of this would like to believe that their perspective is the biblical perspective but I'm going to make my best case today and do pray for me as I share because I'm so passionate about this that I want to do it in a I want to do it in a way that will appeal to your minds and more than your emotions and we want to explore what does the Word of God say on this subject amen probably the first thing that we need to do is start at the beginning that's always a good place to start everybody in this room all the people anyway you fall into one of two categories you are a boy or a girl you are a man or a woman and it's been that way since the beginning and so this is something that is very applicable to everybody here in one way or another if we go back into the book of Genesis you notice right away that the first woman came from man matter of fact some argue that's where the Woodward woman comes from from the womb of man now there's another group that believes that it's a corruption of the word Whitman meaning the wife of man but God named Adam God brought Adams wife from his side Adam named Eve Adam was looking among all the creatures he noticed they all had their pairs but there was something missing as a woman came to be the help meat for man to really be the completeness of God's creation of man in his own image both man and woman are made in the image of God but you see in the beginning right after the temptation and sin entered our world that trouble began when woman wandered from man's side and then she instead of listening to the clear instructions she had received from the Lord and from her husband not to take from that forbidden tree she independently made a different decision a new freedom new power was being offered to her by the devil he said don't listen to what God said don't listen to what your husband said they're hiding something from you you listen to what I say and you will have enhanced experience and so she did then she brings it to her husband and offers it to him and man now puts he defers to his wife instead of leading he submits and he takes her advice and all the problems that you see in the world today both in our relationships and in the world spring from this interruption of God's design for the relationship between God and man and woman and as a result of this you can read about this by the way in the book patriarchs and prophets page 53 and 54 the Angels had caution to Eve to beware of separating herself from her husband while occupied in their daily labour in the garden with him she would be in less danger from temptation than if she were alone but absorbed in her pleasing task she unconsciously wandered from his side sin came into our world as a result of man neglecting and women disregarding the husband's leadership role and then a curse was pronounced and you read this in Genesis chapter 3 verse 16 I'll probably also add verse 17 it said to the woman he said I'll greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception in pain you'll bring forth children and it goes on to say your desire shall be to your husband he will rule over thee now through the ages people mostly those who have a more liberal bias have tried to find some other way of saying that but that word there means just what it says it's from the word Machel in hebrew and it means definition according to Strong's to rule to have dominion to govern Terrain to have power God had to establish in the very beginning because the devil was going to be trying to destroy the family that there needed to be Authority in the family and so the Lord went back to his original design man was created first so things have changed oh by the way you read on here in Genesis chapter 3 verse 17 and then to Adam he says because you've heated the voice of your wife as opposed to the voice of God and I've eaten from the tree which I commanded he's saying you shall not eat it said you shall cursed is the ground for your sake in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life and so we've seen the result of that now over time now all of history has been altered in the last 60 50 years up until the feminist movement became very prominent for the first 1900 years 2,000 years of church history it was understood that sort of the the final authority within the church was to rest solely with husbands in the men pastors but things have changed because there was a lot of abuse of that authority wherever there's power it will it will be misused men are naturally anatomically bigger they're muscular that's why you find divisions in the men and women Olympic events you don't ever see the women weight lifters competing against the men weight lifters and a number of other events you'll notice the same thing because of that added strength there that has often been abused and certain rights that women should have had they have been denied and so any movement that may begin with certain just principles as it pushes towards reaching the the right position the pendulum often swings too far sometimes it's like trying to stop a battleship on a dime it's very difficult to do it often overshoots its mark and this happened with the feminist movement where it went way beyond just and what I support which was of course voting rights equal pay for equal work and protection against the discrimination and sexual intimidation in the workplace you know I've got a picture here I'm going to put up on the screen I want you to notice this is a picture from New York City its small and sorry the resolution is small and this is a parade in New York City it is a what we used to call women's lib and then it was the women's movement and then it was the feminist movement it's gone under several labels but in that picture you may barely see there's lady dressed in sort of a dolly parton not Dolly Parton Dolly Madison oh I'm getting my American heroes mixed up the just to the right of the one on the right in this parade was my mother my mother was a leader in the women's lib feminist movement in New York City matter of fact in this next picture here you'll see that's the dress that mom wore on that day and that charming a a little creature by her side is me and I'm not talking about the dog he's in the middle but my mother did a television program in Canada and part of it and gave her a dress like this she kept the dress and she marched down the streets in New York City wearing this and the reason I'm telling you this my stepmother for 30 years Bettina Bachelor some of you remember the Virginia Slims commercial for the cigarettes their slogan you've come a long way baby and Betty modeled for those commercials and so I grew up just immersed in the thinking of the feminist movement my mother was a leader in that movement in New York City and she finally left and in her words is what she said my mom was for equal pay and equal rights and some of the discrimination issues and and and you know many just things but she said she came home exasperated she said I can't be part of this anymore and I still remember I was only about 12 years old but I remember her saying she said most of them are angry lesbians that want to be men and I know you can take it up with whoever you want I'm just telling what my mother said and she was part of it and so there has been a lot of pushing that's gone on in that movement that has other agendas part of it is to damask elate the men in our culture and you can see that reflected in a lot of the advertising and the programming and it has not been without effect I believe that men should be men I believe God has called men to lead and I think what you're seeing in the church is a reflection of what's been happening in our culture where because there has been a vacuum of leadership among the men both in society and in the church that wherever there's a vacuum of leadership something will flow in and take its place and women have been flowing in to fill the vacuum now that has led beyond what the Bible I believe teaches is what's appropriate I believe that there there's a broad spectrum there's a kaleidoscope of different ways that all men and women can minister the thing we're really addressing our attention to today is the issue of women being ordained as pastors and elders and what does the Bible say about that specific issue well as it said in that Virginia Slims float in the times they are a-changin and you've come a long way baby for instance in 1978 nineteen percent of seminary students you know seminaries are where people study for ministry they study theology they were women by the way the word seminary comes from the same word of semen so it's interesting that you've got so many women in the seminary studying for that's just where the root of the word is 70 or 19 percent in 1978 were women in 1994 slightly over 30 percent so it went from 19 to 30% today a little over 50% 51% of those that are in seminaries studying for a full-time ministry are women and that's among the Protestant denominations of course the Catholics and some of the Orthodox churches have taken a very hard stance on that and it's so it's not a big an issue there the big question is this trend is it because the church suddenly woke up after 1900 years and said you know we have been we've been holding women back and women really should have been pastors all along the way right along side of men pastoring congregations and the light finally dawned because people started studying the Bible and they said how have we missed all these scriptures for the last 1,900 years or is it the pressure of culture people's fear of being accused of being chauvinistic and rigid and unbending and socially backwards and primitive matter of fact if you were to say what percentage it is it new revelation from the Bible and what percentages social cultural pressure I would tell you I'd submit 100% of it of that change has been driven by everything other than a new epiphany of what the scripture has to say I believe that we have been badgered and intimidated so that we're not really going by what does the Bible say matter of fact in the seventh-day Adventist Church if you trace the history a little bit I am sorry to say a lot of those changes and of course in North America not so much in other parts of the world now women are being ordained they call it commissioned but it's really the same thing as being ordained as pastors and it's you know you can call it Commission but in every other way it's the same as ordination with all the rights privileges that's like Abraham Lincoln used to say you can call a dog's tail a leg but it's still tail and so just changing the label of something doesn't change the definition of it and what they've done is they've tried to pacify people who read the Bible that say only men should be ordained as pastors and say well we're not we're not ordaining the women's pastors we're commissioning them as pastors that's the same thing and in every other way the authority and they're baptizing and leading out in communion services are fulfilling all the sacred offices that God originally said that should be reserved for the men and and this is a dangerous subject for me to share but you know I just figure someone's got to say something and if I perish I perish I've been here a long time anyway and I know it's not very popular in our culture to say these things it's kind of like wearing a mink coat to a PETA convention but someone needs to say it first of all men and women are different and I'm not just talking about the obvious outward plumbing it's the inner wiring and I'm not saying that I know and understand what all those differences are and even if we do understand the differences and don't understand the differences that's not the reason to obey the Word of God even if we don't understand the word of God's Word of God and then men and women are different in many ways one we're different in the way that we relate and understand relationships women tend to communicate more effectively than men and part of that is because the left hemisphere of their brain and the right hemisphere are connected with four times as many neurons as with men so they've got their their logical and task oriented part is communicating with a relational and emotional part as they process information and which often causes problems in marriages because men will want to address a specific problem in a discussion and all of a sudden in the discussion there's this quantum leap to something that happened three weeks ago and you know you're talking about changing the oil also and she's talking about the children's education you're going wait a second how do we get on that subject and so all the wires you know go back and forth but men have more neurons in their brain some of that is because we have more mass and it may mean more nerve endings but you know you should also know and I know this isn't going to get me reelected according to the British Journal of Psychology while men and boy women's brains communicate better right-to-left men on an average score five points higher on an IQ test argue with the people at the British Journal of Psychology that came up with that obviously women have less muscle mass than men do some of the other differences are the reaction to stress men tend to have a fight or fight or flight risk Bonz women often look for strategies in dealing with these kinds of stresses and they want to tend and befriend now that that's good in relationships you know if you're at a board meeting it's nice to have someone say let's talk through this if you're on a battlefield you don't want to tend and befriend attitude you want the either attack or retreat fight-or-flight attitude that's why I think that on combat men are better suited for that language the two sections of the brain women Excel I don't have time to read all these I won't have time for everything else pain men and women perceive pain differently mental deny their pain longer than women will in their spatial ability men typically have stronger spatial abilities of being able to mentally represent a shape in its dynamics wherein women typically struggle in this area medical experts have discovered that women have a thicker per Ixchel region of the brain that hinders the ability to mentally rotate objects in their brain in the aspect of spatial ability so men can think better in 3d these are generalizations you realize as they go through this susceptibility to disorders because of the way that men and women use the two hemispheres of their brain there are some different disorders are more exposed to men a more apt to have dyslexia and other language problems women on the other hand are more susceptible to mood disorders such as depression and anxiety and it goes on there's quite a few differences no we are not exactly the same where were different creatures in many respects and it's important to recognize that as we approach this subject that those who are clamoring and campaigning to say that there shouldn't be any difference in the roles of men and women in the church we are different were gifted differently and God has said there should be a different what about the verse pastor Doug that said we are all one in Christ I believe that Paul said this Galatians chapter 3 verse 28 and those who campaign in favor of ordaining women as pastors loved to quote this verse but they want to choke and muzzle Paul and everything else he says so you got to read all of it but this I believe is often used and I believe it entirely in Christ Galatians 3:28 there is neither Jew nor Greek there is neither slave nor free there is neither male nor female for you are all one in Christ Jesus and that's the same economically ethnically in the genders these distinctions have no bearing on salvation and among some of the pagans they thought only the men would be saved and the women could only be saved by virtue of being linked with a man but with Christ men and women had equal access slave or free didn't matter what your your gender or your ethnicity was everybody could approach Christ directly you didn't need to go through a priest anymore that's what Paul's telling us so you've got to mitigate this statement of Paul with everything else he says and you see what you think so now as we dive into this I can have a lot of scriptures on the screen by what criteria will we decide if women should be ordained as pastors and elders should we say can women preach well first of all can they very effectively my mother all bless her heart if she could have ever been converted she would have been a great communicator in that area can women teach sure they can can they chair a board meeting can they give you a Bible study can they do evangelism yes absolutely they be prophets and spirit-filled prophets of God so are we going to ask ourselves what is increasingly popular is that going to be the determining argument or what does the Bible say I believe it is easier to support the truth that God has designed only men should be ordained as pastors and elders from the New Testament than to support the Sabbath and it's easy to support the Sabbath it's even easier to support this principle I will not be able to share with you today all of the scriptures those who come to the conclusion that there is not a distinction made in the Bible all the way from Adam 2 through revelation in the roles of men and women in the church have to go through the most phenomenal mind-bending gymnastics to escape the plain truth that is incomprehensible to me but you know if you tell people a lie often enough they'll believe just about anything and so this is a truth that is being sidelined and ignored and frankly we're ridiculed by some of our other Protestant friends that want to take a more biblical approach to this and I'm embarrassed that's why that's one reason I feel passionate about this today I've got friends in other churches I've got some friends that are in the Southern Baptist Church and others and they say no pastor Doug you know you guys have a pretty strong argument on the Sabbath but I can't understand why in the Adventist Church now you're ordaining women as pastors and you don't have to hang my head and say I can't understand it either let's look at some of the verses first of all God establishes and I'm using mostly New Testament because you know the argument is people say Old Testament has old tradition New Testament is what we need to go by now why don't you turn to to understand his order in the family turn to Colossians 3 verse 18 to begin with Colossians 3 verse 18 to 20 and we'll have it on the screen but I do appreciate hearing the rustle of the Bible pages you might want to March some of these wives submit to your own husbands well obviously that's a bad translation that's what people say and you wouldn't believe the incredible lengths people go to they try to carve up the language every way they can and twist these words in the original say it couldn't possibly mean that wives submit your own husband's as is fitting in the Lord husbands love your wives do not be bitter towards him children obey your parents and all things for this is well pleasing to the Lord and so he's alluding to the 10 commandments in this very simple passage that wives were to submit to their husbands you know when it says honor your father and mother it starts with the father it always gives deference to the father first in the Hebrew mind the father was the son in the family the mother was the moon that was reflecting the light of the Father the father was the priest leader in the family that God communicated through the priest to the family he communicates through the mother to but she was supposed to be reflecting that white and if you want a scripture on that you remember when Joseph had a dream and the dream was that the Sun and the moon and the 12 stars were bowing down to him later his father interpreted that dream he said what are you saying that your mother and I and your brothers so the father was the son the mother was the moon see what I'm saying so you'll see there is this order first Corinthians 11:13 I'm just jumping to another by the way it says this is well pleasing to the Lord that would stand a reason that when we don't obey that it is not pleasing to the Lord him is that simple logic 1st Corinthians 11:3 but I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ many problems with that so far and the head of every woman is the man obviously it must say something else from the Greek he's really plain statements and the head of Christ is God you know not only are we understanding from these verses that there is an order of authority in the family but there is an order of authority with God and so for us to really dispute this truth is saying that we think that we deserve a better relationship or a different relationship than the Father Son and spirit that we're somehow well Jesus we realize you might submit to the authority of God the Father but not down here on earth don't ask us to do that you can be God up to a point but in the Trinity God the Father the Son and the Spirit you see an order of authority I had a lot of verses on that I've got a whole book on the Trinity where you can read about and we approach this subject reverently because you know when you talk about God you're on holy ground first Corinthians 3:23 says and you are Christ and Christ is God's this is a short verse for you while you're turning turn to Titus next go to Titus chapter 2 verse 4 Titus 2 verse 4 we'll read verse 5 also still talking about order in the Christian family and that they admonished the young women to love their husbands so we've got a command for husbands I love their wives and we got a command for women to love their husbands by the way there's more commands in the Bible for husbands to love their wives I think this is the only commandment for wives to love their husbands because it's easier for women to love than men that's how I understand that that you admonish the young women to love their husbands to love their children to be discreet chaste homemakers good obedient to their own husband's that the Word of God may not be blasphemed know if any of you remember the old wedding vows I haven't heard one I don't know if I've ever heard one since I've been a pastor but you read them from about 50 years ago and it said something like the women would say to love honor and obey in their vows to the husband because they sprang from this Christian truth there was 1,900 years old jump with me now to Ephesians 5:22 this is Paul this is the one who said we are all one in Christ same guy some will say well but he was off his medication those days that this doesn't really matter Paul was being influenced by the traditions of the culture so we're not supposed to take these verses seriously what's going to happen to your Bible how are you going to chop up your scriptures if you start picking and choosing what passages and commands you think the writers were under some imbalanced influence of the cultures of the day Ephesians 5 22 to 25 wives submit to your own husband's as unto the Lord now I cleared permission to preach all this with Karen before I got up here I just want you to know that submit yourselves under your husband's as unto the Lord for the husband is the head of the wife listen to this the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church that comes out the same way doesn't matter what translation you pick up the husband of the head of the wife even as Christ as the head of the church and he is the savior of the body Christ the Saviour of the body of Christ which is the church therefore as the church is subject to Christ so let the wives be to their own husbands and everything ah somebody snuck this into the Bible is that really in the New Testament well explain what that really means pastor died I think it means what it says if you spend too long and plainly reading the Bible pretty soon it's not going to mean what it says anymore that means there ought to be now how much does Jesus love the church how patient and kind and gentle is he with the church that's how husbands should love their wives it's a lot easier for wives to submit to a husband like that and just because husbands aren't loving their wives the way that Christ loves the church doesn't mean the wives then throw out the scripture because when yet whenever you look at any kind of wrong or inconsistency in the church or in the culture don't ever use that as an excuse to justify some other of that behavior I've heard people say there is nothing wrong with Christians decking themselves with jewelry I've seen the hubcaps on those Christian cars well maybe their hubcaps are a little too flamboyant that's you don't use that to justify the other you know I hear all these really bizarre arguments well they're doing this so this must be okay you're right the men are not acting like men the husbands are not loving the way they ought to love and the wives are not submitting the way the Bible says they should we ought to all be doing what God commands us to do makes it a lot easier in the families notice though it says here that Jesus is making a comparison between the family relationship and don't miss this because I'm going to make a jump here jump with me I've been talking about the order in the family now we're going to transition to the church because the church is an extension of the family you can't have God being one person in the family with a certain order where men are the priests leaders in the family then once they walk into the church the man is the priests leader at home when he walks into the church another woman's the priest leader his wife is now fulfilling that role the church is an extension of family Abraham was the priest leader in his family is that right how many were in his family well starts with 300 soldiers 318 he had probably over a thousand in his family that's bigger than our church isn't it and he was the patriarch he was the priest he would intercede he offered the sacrifices this is a role that is purely absolutely 100 percent a male role all through the Bible why did God make a distinction in the offering sometimes he said this is to be a male lamb and this was to be a female goat and why would even specify genders of these creatures that were types if gender didn't mean anything it does mean something why does it trace the genealogy of Jesus both on Mary side and on Joseph side through the men there's a reason for that that's because that's the culture back then they were patriarchal they were primitive I mean after all they had too many wives God didn't support that God did not support these this dominant picture of men and they'll say they'll use the they had slaves back then too so I mean if you're going to support slavery then and they lump this truth in the New Testament where the other inconsistencies you see was never part of God's plan that a man had more than one wife never did he wink at those times of ignorance absolutely was it ever part of God's plan that one man should own another man slavery no God made laws about those things to protect the people he winked at their ignorance because of the hardness of their hearts he made certain provisions but you don't find the relationship of the roles and family falling into that category it goes back to the Garden of Eden and that's where Paul references it when he uses these truths go to first Peter chapter three first Peter 3 verse 1 and I'll read verse 2 wives likewise be submissive to your own husbands that even if some do not obey the word they may without a word be one by the conduct behavior the conversation of the wives when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear I'm going to jump to verse 5 for in this manner in former times the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves being submissive to their own husbands as Sara obeyed Abraham calling him Lord now I'm not going to ask Karen to call me Lord on the way home but Peter is just using it he's not commanding that the wives all call their husbands Lord and husbands don't go don't now abuse this sermon the worst thing you could do you think you got it bad now just wait but it's Peters using this as an example of how she respected her husband whose daughters you are you are the daughters of Sarah who called her husband Lord if you do what is good and you're not afraid with any terror then he goes on and won't notice this I didn't want to stop her husband's likewise dwell with them with understanding that's a miracle right there when we can understand them but it says dwell with them with understanding giving honor to the wife as the weaker vessel it's a lot easier to submit when you are honored you know Bible says that were to honor the Lord Bible says honor your father and mother and the Bible says husband's honor your wives and so husbands are to protect their families and honor and cherish their wives as the weaker vessel and being heirs together of the grace of life where are we one men and women slave and free Greek and Jew we are heirs together of salvation so you notice that Peter helps explain what Paul meant because he says oh yeah that oneness that Paul is talking about that means we're heirs together but Peter says it right after he says wife should be submissive to their husbands you with me is this still making sense so far all right what about in the church now we're going to transition first Timothy chapter 2 verse 11 let a woman learn in silence with all subjection nevertheless she'll be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith and holiness will self-control now we've already read this but I just wanted to remind you it said let a woman learn in silence with all subjection to chapter 3 I'm just in the same book he's still talking about similar issues a bishop then must be blameless the husband of one wife now what is a bishop the word Bishop is episkopos it means a superintendent a Christian officer generally in charge of a church an overseer a Shepherd now let the Bible explain itself if you look for instance in first Peter - don't leave first Timothy but I'll maybe I'll even put it up there on the screen for you in a minute first Peter 2:25 Peter says for you were as sheep going astray but you've now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop episkopos same exact word of your souls so the bishops were the shepherds they were the pastors they were the leaders of the flocks is that clear and it says they should be husbands of one wife now some have wondered well what does that mean does that mean that if they've ever been married before and their wife they were divorced that they could never be a bishop they still had polygamy back then they were talking about not to have multiple wives because they still even had that in some of the Roman Empire husbands of one wife their support for that temperate sober-minded of good behavior hospitable able to teach not given to wine not violent not greedy for money but gentle not quarrelsome not covetous notice one who rules his own house well having his children and submission with all reverence for of a ban if a man does not know how to rule his own house how will he take care of the Church of God do you see Paul making a connection between the family the house and the church there's no break there our churches are an extension of our families aren't thing when we get together and by the way as goes the family so goes the church in a go as goes the church so goes the country every government is built on the morals of its people and when they lose their morals so country loses its heading one more verse and then we'll talk you're allowed to disagree just don't be disagreeable one more verse before we talk about the teaching part first Corinthians 14:34 Paul again speaking here let the women keep silent in the churches for they are not permitted to speak but they are to be submissive as also says the law now the five books of Moses were called the law so Paul is referring back again to Genesis but what does he mean now does he mean does he mean let them not speak in the churches does he mean they can't lean over and ask a question does it mean they can't teach even women in a church does it mean they can't teach children what does this mean I'm going to read from Adam Clark's commentary Adam Clark was sort of the Apostle Peter of the Weslie Wesleyan movement to you the brilliant commentator he said it's evident from the context the Apostle refers here to asking questions and what we call dictating in the assemblies all the Apostle opposes here is their question they're fault-finding they're disputing together with the attempts to usurp authority over the man now keep in mind right across from Corinth was a city called Delphi have you ever heard of the Oracle of Delphi the principal religious leader in the Oracle of Delphi was a priestess that would be dictating supposedly God spoke to her and she was dictating to the people she used these unintelligible utterances and then either another priestess or a priest within translate these and I'm not going to go down the road of how that's connected with some of the modern uses of tongues today but you have to contextualize what is Paul saying here about suffer them not to teach he's saying all these converts in Corinth came from the Roman Empire they were influenced by the Greek and the Roman religion they were bringing those ideas into the church and the women were taking the authority to teach the other men in the capacity of pastor and so in that context Paul is saying tell them to be quiet they are not supposed to be teaching meaning in the capacity of a pastor how do you know that do we have examples in the Bible of God speaking through women and teaching through women do we have prophetess in the Bible I can name them all you got to hold up Deborah you got in in the New Testament you got the four daughters of Philip in New Testament which did prophesy matter of fact in 1st Corinthians 14 same book Paul talks about when the women prophesy they were to cover their hands I'm not even going to go into the head covering part now because that's not that's another whole bucket of worms but I just want to illustrate that he talks about them prompt the sighing in public and in church and praying so obviously they were doing that and he's not condemning them in that capacity let me see if I could explain that the ultimate authority biblically for God's people from Adam to the present day has been that men are to be the priests leaders in the family and in the church they are to be ordained what that means is God is designed in his order of things doesn't matter how popular it is or what the world says its what the word says that men should have the authority to be the spiritual guides the leaders and family and a lot of families fall apart as men the women lead out spiritually and bless their hearts for doing it and I'm glad they do it in that vacuum you can say what about pastor Doug I know a lady pastor by the way I've got several friends that are lady pastors they're going to probably get a copy of this and I love them known for years good friends respect them but I got a problem with what the Bible says and what the church is doing and that's my final allegiance is to the Word of God and others are going to say but pastor Doug there's this church over here that is pastored by a woman and obviously the Spirit is using her and how can you say that is not of God I want to say that God isn't blessing if heaven forbid anything happened to Karen and I had to raise my voice the rest of the way I'd have to do a lot of things that Karen is doing but I'll tell you one thing I would never do I would never tell my boys to call me mom and the Lord might bless a thousand different ways doesn't God send His blessing even in times of a when David had too many wives did God still bless King David so someone might say that proves it's okay to have a hundred wives because god bless this kingdom under Solomon you can have three hundred wives and seven hundred concubines because obviously god bless the kingdom during Solomon so it must be okay God blesses because he's good and so sometimes God winks at our ignorance and he blesses and so I'm not questioning that and he also knows that people are so hungry that God will use a variety of means to feed people but it still may not be his ideal well according to Scripture you see what I'm saying and so I'm not going to argue with all of the antidotal experience that you've had or the evidence that you might see about women who are effective teachers or preachers we're really talking about what does the Bible say let's go on here popular arguments what do people say Paul was anti woman obviously you never hear about mrs. Paul do you he didn't even get married he is as a woman hater that's what some people say when they come to these verses you can't pay attention to Paul when he talks about women in the role of women because what did he possibly know he wasn't even married I mean Paul said you better off being like me being unmarried you know Paul says that somewhere and they take that out of context and so some people say well it's just Paul was a woman hater so don't it doesn't mean what it says of course he wrote half the New Testament so you're going to really have a very thin New Testament if you take that approach some of the other arguments that people have are well these date statements were added later by chauvinistic editors oh they're going to go down the road of saying I'm going to pick and choose what part of the Bible's I think that some conspiracy got ahold of and there they inserted their favorite thoughts well your Bible is going to be obliterated if you do that you're not going to know what's true anymore well that Peter Paul and Jesus were going along with oppressive traditions of the day that's another argument have you heard that they were following the pattern from the Garden of Eden all the way up to the present day it's very clear now without doubt somebody's going to say no pastor Doug what about L&G white I mean here we are in a seventh-day Adventist Church and one of the prominent founders in the seventh-day Adventist Church was Alan white not the only one I believe Joseph Bates had a pretty primary role as did James White and hello I was a prophetess she was a teacher I think Ellen White is a pretty powerful support of everything I'm saying today how many books did she write fifty five million words something like that is millions over 70 years of communicating teaching writing dreams visions prophecy not one time does she say women should be ordained as pastors she talks about praying of them that people are desperate they'll take little nuances here and there and they'll try and create some straw man argument out of these things you know for instance you can find a place where Ellen White was issued ministerial credentials when her husband died so she could stay on the church payroll and they say see here it talks about Ellen White ordained as a minister of the gospel and this is actually a photocopy Karen took a picture of the where'd you get this dear or forget Elms Haven I think there's another one somewhere else but you look I'm going to zoom in now on this when it was issued same time same ink same pen they crossed out the word ordained because they said this is not ordination I am thrilled for women teachers and I am thrilled when women get involved in Bible studies and evangelism and if you've come here for any length of time you know we had Junie Lawson was a Bible worker here I would ask her to teach my class I don't remember she may have preached too we've had women preach here you see we're not talking about that they're doing it under the authority of the pastor they're not usurping that authority I am responsible as a priest leader in my family for worship but don't you think I delegate that to Karen an awful lot I'm traveling to say dear I've got to go to work I'm leaving early kids aren't up yet can you have worship with him today she's not taking my role you understand there's a difference there so we're not speaking against women using their gifts and I was tempted to go through all the places in the Bible where God uses women and I thought you know it's almost condescending and patronizing of course in every other way but there's a place where God has drawn a line matter of fact this would be if anything if you're going to draw a line anywhere if you're making any distinction where Paul makes all these statements about the role of women in the family and in the church you would at the very least need to draw the line here that women should not be ordained as pastors or elders elders were they were basically the same thing you do not have any example in the Bible of women's serving as apostles why did Jesus choose 12 apostles men only well he was conforming to the customs of the day it would interrupt the work have you chosen any women nonsense Jesus died because he would not conform and when Judas was hung hung himself and they needed to replace him there was an upper room filled with men and women they chose two men to pick from that would never fly today they would say you know to be politically correct we need to have at least a woman in a man to pick from right or you'd be accused of being sexist and discrimination all through the Bible all the priests were men you'll find no examples you know another can women be prophets can then be prophets Amram and Jochebed had three children very unusual all three children were prophets what were their names Miriam Aaron Moses in order of their births by the way how many of those children were prophets all three how many were priests just the boys and I don't know perhaps you remember the story in the Bible where Miriam and Aaron came to challenge Moses and what he was doing and God stood up for Moses against his brother and his sister and you know who was punished the most severely not Aaron Mary and receive leprosy Moses prayed for and it went away after a week because she was overstepping telling her two priests brothers she was probably instrumental by the way they were angry because he had married an Ethiopian woman and Miriam maybe because she had once been prophetess now Moses listening to his wife I can just picture how that all unfolded so she must have been kind of the ringleader in that argument but there's a distinction made from cover to cover in the Bible but how do you live with that today oh by the way you know I I didn't want to rush away from I was talking about on the white let me read a quote from Ellen White this is from testimonies volume 5 page 60 the primary object of our College was to afford young men an opportunity to study for the ministry and to prepare young persons of both sexes to become workers in the various branches of the cause that's what you call slam dunk she just was perfectly clear young men prepare for the ministry young person's of both sexes for the various branches of the cause there's all kinds of things but she was really clear as a woman she understood these things I think that's that's pretty strong you know and you you've got a lot of examples in the Bible of people who said what difference does it say if God says it's just supposed to be the Levites you have to be from the tribe of Aaron or the tribe of Levi to officiate isn't that discriminating what it is the discrimination God was making a discrimination there was a reason for it he had chosen the sons of Aaron to be the priests the Levites to the be the ministers and along comes King Isaiah and he says you know I'm the King all the pagan cultures the King could also offer sacrifice and so he thought the other Kings do it I can't even go into the Holy of Holies in the temple he signed the King yet he was a good king all through his life it records Isaiah was a good King but when his heart was lifted up this is second chronicles chapter 26 verse 16 to 19 when his heart was lifted up to his destruction he transgressed though against the Lord his God by entering into the temple of the Lord to burn incense on the altar of incense he said I can do this and you know the priest stood up against him and said as ayah this will not be for your honor he says I deserve it just as much as you deserve and I'm as good as you I can swing the incense just like you can swing the incense what difference does it make because God has not chosen you it wasn't the descendants of Judah it was where Isaiah was from it was the descendants of Levi and Aaron and he started to argue with them and probably had a lot of very good creative clever arguments and rationalizations and while he became furious and he argued with them and how narrow and if they were leprosy broke out in this forehead they chased them out of the temple and he died a leper does God have the right to be God does God have any rights so when God sends things in his word should be a certain way are we gonna tell him he's wrong we may not understand it but the first thing before we understand is to submit to what he says Romans nine twenty but nay but nay but o man who art thou that repliest against God shall the thing formed say to him that formed it why hast thou made me thus God has a ministry for everybody but does he give the same gifts to everybody some prophets some apostles some teachers some preachers I mean there's all kinds of different gifts of the Spirit and God has a work for everybody to do you know I I think about this statement you've probably seen it from the book education page 57 one of my favorites written by a woman the greatest want of the world is the ones of men men who will not be bought or sold men who in their inmost souls are true and honest men and some when they read this they say well she's just speaking in generic terms and I might be wrong but I don't think so I I think that she specifically is emphasizing God is looking for men because there's a vacuum of men you know before Ellen White was called God called two men I didn't have the backbone to do what she did God called her and the reason in the days of Deborah that God called Deborah it's because there were no men that were leading the greatest want of the world is the want of men what means there's a vacuum there's a lack of men who will not be bought or sold men who in their inmost souls are true and honest men who do not fear to call sin by its right name men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle is to the pole men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall now spiritually we are all a royal priesthood spiritually we are all called to minister for God technically though in the families and in the churches God has designed that men should be those servant leaders as the priests of the family the pastors and the elders in the church I believe that I do not believe that the last 1900 years of church history we've been wrong if people fall for the popular feminist version of interpretation today they really have to throw out Martin Luther John Calvin John Wesley Charles Spurgeon Adam Clarke John Gill Matthew Henry you name any great commentator of history from go back 100 years you got to throw them all away they were all wrong I read them were they all wrong the last 19 hundred years or something wrong with what we're doing in the world today I think one of the things that's going to bring the wrath of God on this generation is that men are not being men they've been intimidated your women intimidate men Peter pulled out a sword when they came to arrest Jesus when his friends were watching he was ready to die a little while later a little girl made fun of him and he denied Christ a lie just stands on a mountaintop takes on hundreds of prophets of bail and then Jezebel sends him a letter and he runs for his life I don't know what it is but it seems like we're living in a generation where the men are being intimidated and I think that God is calling us to return to the faith that was once delivered to the fathers that men should be the priests leaders in the families they should take up their role and lead out spiritually and in the churches I believe the Bible only teaches that men should be ordained as pastors and elders and I pray that this message will go to others as well because my voice might just be a little hiccup in a hurricane I don't know if it's going to make any difference I'm praying it does because there I'm hearing so much of the other arguments I figure that maybe there's still room for arguing what we used to believe for nineteen hundred years by the way I've written a little book on this that we'll send to anybody who wants to call in for it right I wanted to sell anything on Sabbath we'll send it to you we want to get the message out it's called women in ministry talks about more has the references that we've talked about we want to put it in your hands as we close the main thing I want everyone to know I can just about guarantee everybody here is either a man or woman and so this is relevant for all of us isn't it and he has a ministry for all of us because we're all part of that spiritual priesthood right and question is are you willing to submit to the Lord and a go where he's telling you to go and to do what he's telling you to do let's pray dear Father in Heaven Lord we've talked today about a difficult subject in part because it's not a popular subject and there's great disagreement even within our ranks over this delicate issue and if today Lord I have portrayed things in the wrong light forgive any in a sarcasm or any heat rather than light and I just prayed that the simplicity of the truth will be clear Lord bless each person here that we might submit to your word we know it's the word that saves us the word that transforms us and Christ indeed is the word and the word that will ultimately set us free I pray your blessing Lord on your people today let there be a revival among your people lord help us to once again be a people of the book where we can point to the book and say here's why we practice what we practice here's why we believe what we believe and be with those who've responded to the invitation this morning whatever the needs might be in their lives and and answer their prayers bring them healing bring them instruction and comfort and peace bless his church Lord that we might be faithful thank you again for your goodness and your presence here on this Sabbath day we ask these things in Jesus name Amen you

Channel: JesuWiederkunft

Views: 717,830

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Keywords: Doug Batchelor, Ordination, Women, Pastor, Leader, Leadership, Bible, Jesus Christ, God, Holy, Spirit, SDA, Seventh-Day Adventists

Id: 0irueCn3hHc

Length: 61min 6sec (3666 seconds)

Published: Tue Apr 17 2012