Should the NHS fund homeopathy?

well homeopathy is the treatment of like with like a substance that that can cause certain symptoms may also be used to relieve those symptoms even when it is so diluted in that water that it well as to be practically undetectable that's the theory the date there's been no scientific proof that homeopathy cures anything there are a lot of people who swear it work for them Glasgow has one of the remaining three homeopathic hospitals that give treatment on the NHS now its future is under threat should the NHS Fund homeopathy taxpayers money and all that so dr. Russell Markham good morning good morning call me a perfect doctor you're also a real doctor aren't you yes yeah now there is no evidence that this works that the BMA have referred to as witchcraft you know you're just given people water here so it's a placebo isn't it well it's just it's gonna work it might work a systematic review has just been performed for homeopathy and published in a systematic the reviewed journal a peer-reviewed journal which clearly indicates that when you pool the best quality studies that the effects of homeopathy are greater than placebo and there are there are more than 150 study was out so people can google this one if you go on to systematic reviews into the most recent ones review led by mathy and cool you'll find there a very high quality systematic review which has itself been independently examined by biostatistics unit here in glasgow one of the foremost in his field and this review clearly shows that only Opeth e has an effect greater than placebo and it's not the only evidence there are evidences in other areas but the the the real point of course is what is relevant to the individual patient obviously what you talk about this I was watching you online it's real interesting talking about facilitating change that's the phrase you use of it's a holistic approach to all the needs of a patient now some would say that's sitting down and having rather more time with some that you might within the NHS so it's about you know I mean a nice nice talk and being being looked after in a bit of verbal therapy well it's a bit more practical than that because 75% of the patients who attend the NHS clinic that I run who are attending for side-effects of tamoxifen are having a direct and practical response I mean they are waking with with fewer night sweats they're having a better day time energy and this is mirrored in other case series up and down the country at various places this is a practical approach to symptomatic problem in patients where there is no Orthodox treatment okay right Evan Evan Harris dr. Ehrman how a lot of you know most doctors will not come on and debate this because they think that gives it a false equivalence on the upper the-- but we're hearing bate whether the earth is round or flat or whether the earth goes around the Sun or whether revolution is a fact and it's of that level I mean you said it was treating like with like it's not treating something and it's not treating it with nothing okay and there's no serious organization scientific or medical that thinks that homeopathy is anything more than a placebo that's why even here in Scotland the manic sure Health Board decided that they weren't going to fund your hospital anymore and they they knew that you could cherry-pick studies as you do and that's part of the pattern and that's what you can't do you can't say oh it worked for me or there's this study here you've got to look at the whole of the evidence the House of Commons did health boards are and they're coming to the conclusion that it is placebo now you could have a debate about whether the NHS should fund something that's a placebo that's a sugar pill that makes people feel better I think it shouldn't because it's not worth it okay because if it doesn't work and it just makes people feel better by deceiving them into thinking they're getting an active treatment then it's unethical and we've got beyond that you have to explain to me then why the patients who I'm treating for for side-effects of tamoxifen haven't had a placebo response to clonidine or the other drugs have been tried for them they are being referred by general practitioners on secondary care health care professionals because they are running against the buffers in terms of what they can offer these patients and it's really important for everyone who is looking at the moral argument behind here to understand that Orthodox medicine does not have all the answers for all patients and that sometimes the so-called evidence base leaves people short in terms of their symptoms and their well-being and another view is required to accept that evidence-based medicine doesn't have all the answers that's why science progresses okay there's not a single homeopathic product in the history of homeopathy that's ever been removed from the market for lack of effectiveness compared to thousands tens of thousands of effective evidence-based products which is why science must go on besides so depressing is for supporting Sciences for me or I know these modern scientists it has to be falsifiable science is tentative it has to be open itself because it's a hotel they've never removed anything because it always works and always works brilliantly it is unethical to fool patients into believing they're getting an effective treatment well I'm here as a health campaigner for people with chronic conditions I do not personally use homeopathy but I do use democracy and this is what is being threatened and you should know that people are being denied a choice and we also do not have proper facilities widespread enough for chronic conditions now there's 18 million people in Britain we suffer from chronic beard there should be a choice of course there should - you broaden that choice well what if you want a shame and shaking his bones in front of you should you get out no it's not like what well it's not like that at all the BMI is being bigoted absolutely bigoted because you know but we've got happening in Lannister regarding the hospital in Glasgow the homeopathic Hospital is an absolute disgrace eighty percent of people responded to a public consultation by the Health Board seeing that they won did that service to the mean and Lanica patients still to go to this who mia the perfect hospital in Glasgow 80% what happened the board said no they ignored the 80% they just trashed the public that has happening too much to work Britain verities trampling on the democracy in Scott well the question being discussed isn't it does homeopathy work it's true Danish yes fun to me off thee and because of course Steve Jones professor Steve Jones he himself put a reporter to the BBC and made clear that there should not be but there's a false equivalence often created in presenting science and imma change and evolution exactly I think he did make absolutely so she funded sort of so that's interesting thing you make as Evan said then see hope its problems start important that homeopathy does not work you might then see let's have a discussion about whether or not the NHS should fund a placebo and I would agree with evidence II know but Evan being a qualified doctor might be able to speak a bit more about why not and but no we are quite certain the homeopathy does not work and I think they any sort of discussions of whether it should be funded or not should take place on that basis so Linda why why should then should it be why should something be funded that don't that's you know 99% of the scientists say does not work why should we as taxpayers stump up for it well it's interesting listening to this I studied religion for a living and it sounds to me like a religious argument actually it's about two faiths clashing it's about a secular faith clashing mid-1 which says actually there's more in heaven and earth than science can prove but there plenty of christians who are on evans side they're religious people are in heaven sites is that what not where your argument falls down now I'm not saying it's religious versus our religious I'm saying it's two very dogmatic positions clashing here it's about who has got the right to call themselves a healer in our society to say that that evolutions are facts or the earth is round that's not dogmatic it's a fact we're not discussing whether the earth is flat no we're discussing homeopathy but I've got a country of up Braer in just a moment don't bleep please please please okay the evidence here is not as clear-cut there are many many people who have benefited from homeopathy and on the other side the placebo effect is a major part of Orthodox medicine and we don't know what that should be funded but we do fund that yeah so why not the answer is that it's a dogmatic clash it's a bit like our UK equivalent of that halfway let me try and like the placebo effect is quite strong it can be very powerful okay so people think they're getting treatment even if it doesn't have a physical effect they can feel better and that can be significant but you get that with an aspirin or in evidence-based treatments because the why we don't need to give them healing is a very very complex process we do not fully understand what healing is I have a friend who suffer from a me for a decade she tried absolutely everything in the end she was healed by a faith healer I don't understand it she doesn't understand it but it worked we don't fully understand what healing is I didn't die you did what I shook some crystals just as a test from the flu now I'm not claiming that this because of the crystals people get better crystals go on yes yeah I think dr. havens face t-then tastes speak for themselves he represents political elite the medical Parfum ethical elite and all kinds of elites and his whole premise is based around we need to put things into our body that we create to make ourselves better the reality is and I think he's a bit meshuggener for thinking that I think the reality is that our own immune systems can heal us we just need to facilitate that happening now homeopathy and I've had this from personal experience I took an organic farm level homeopathy I don't know if that's slightly stronger than the diluted stuff I actually had the most vivid dreams with efficacious I'm sure yeah it was completely completely transformed my whole existence no that was based around the dream that had after the homeopathy had a dream because of it because of it and that dream led to me pursuing psychodynamic therapy and all other kinds of therapies in order to try and bring out what the dream brought I'm sure it's a good story in a second but Nadia it worked for you didn't it yes it I've got a bone disease one of 15 people that is non condition called male aureus ptosis I've tried just about every treatment in 19 years and I haven't found anything to be effective until I tried homeopathy and I have to say I was coming from the other side of the fence in a background of science I didn't believe it has it helped you manage it it helps manage it and I'm still waiting for the proof and I'm due to have actually it's done again in July and a pavilion tested to see in terms of muscle density and density to see what difference is actually me well and and and would be quite looking forward to any advance study in that idiot well wish you all the best with that thank you for that I want to talk a little bit know you want to come back so once I got prayer in a second no not being a member of our political elites or a having any vested interest in the sort of pharmaceutical industry and class of skeptics as a grassroots not-for-profit organisation or me half pump it popped meetings of a week there's one in fracking tomorrow do come on I'm so you know I have no vested interest on the point I would make is a point I would make is is simply that the companies that spend that generate all this income from from a drugs from putting on the stuff in your body they are the same companies that woman that produced homeopathy they're also not simply not true no absolutely so it's a forty million pound business from today arguments you we're looking at finances and we're talking at justifications if we simply examine the fact that orthodox drugs caused two billion pounds worth of damage in terms of side effects every year in this country and ask yourselves how many patients you've encountered that have either died ended up with GI bleeding I mean one of our trials are such a bleeding gastrointestinal bleed one of our trials is for the is relates to effectiveness of homeopathy in here hero it's work very tightly controlled trial double-blind placebo-controlled trial which fits all the parameters of modern scientific inquiry now if we're looking at the treatment of hay fever which has some evidence for its effectiveness and ask ourselves what the recent evidence is around some of the hay fever treatments we find that a lot of the orthodox hay fever treatments are responsible in the long term for increased incidence of Alzheimer's disease now you give us a choice or give the patient a choice about a risky interventionist treatment and a safe treatment with an evidence-based okay that's good that's anything let me let me let me come to our elected petitions on the basis of this nonsense I am responsible for doctors to come on and make ex cathedra statements about treatments people watching might believe you could you take a salary for doing homeopathy okay I don't take any salary from saying the truth which is it does not work and you shouldn't pay to deceive I want to ask you about other the power of prayer now you you pray for you pray for patients sometimes you pray for people who visit us tell me you got a woman in your church when she prays her hands filled with oil yes what goes what's going on there well I don't really know but I believe that it has some kind of efficacious help Paul says anoint them with holy hands on the stake in the soil and when this woman Audrina it's begin simply yeah no yeah it drips it just drips it starts to drip off her hand I've never seen that before but it's not totally unknown that's amazing it is amazing can I just see it can I just see one thing if I might by the doctor evan is one of them was brilliant debaters and acute mains sharpest people and the nicest guys you can see this if you can see that evolution is a prayer yeah very pray for some books for Christmas next year listen let me ask you about prayer praying for an entire wards does that work well it certainly has a help people are appreciated people feel better as do when people go to homeopathy about a feeling of internal well-being Linda which can help yeah it's about dealing with the whole person but we know that the body alone isn't what causes disease or health so there are many other treatments which deal with the whole person that's the whole rationale with the emotions paying attention to you recognizing the problems you have I did a study looking at people who are for alternative medicine and the one thing I think is false is that these are quacks who are trying to make a quick buck out of people these are very very caring responsible people many of whom are actually refugees from the National Health Service many many women as well as men and they found that within that system they were unable to care for the whole person with the time and attention that they needed but there are some cracks on that I mean there must be some because they are making a profit regulated you see it's very important that this continuing inquiry to ensure that dangerous treatments okay and I've medicines that can be dangerous spent on homeopathy it could be spent on treatment actually works by the NHS we have should be banned but the NHS should spend patients off completely from something the patients see works thank you very much lively debate and rewriting science listen you can join in all this morning stupid

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Length: 17min 35sec (1055 seconds)

Published: Sun Feb 01 2015