Seeking and Discerning the Call to Gospel Ministry

all right so let's let's get started we'll we'll start maybe we'll go and starting from the worst-dressed all the way almost to the best dress but if you could if you could briefly introduce yourself introduce your role here at southeastern and the college and maybe how long you've been here yeah I'm Scott pace I'm the Dean of the college and I've been here a little over a year so I'm Scott Hildreth I'm the director of the Center for Great Commission studies and I'm in my 11th year here my name is Ron Sherlock I'm the director for the Pasteur center and also instructor of preaching and urban ministry and it's been almost two years now that I've been here name's jim Shaddix and i direct absolutely nothing I teach preaching and then this I'm in my eighth year on the faculty fantastic thank you for joining us here and also this important conversation and let's just jump in Scott let me start with you as dean of the college you also bring a lot of years not only in the classroom but in ministry as well so this whole idea of calling is it biblical is it important or why does it even matter yeah it's an extremely crucial conversation I'm so glad were to be on the panel but also that we're having the conversation is such a venue is this when you think about calling there's there's a lot of different ways that scripture talks about it but it definitely talks about it and I think it's helpful sometimes to distinguish and clarify how we mean calling so for instance scripture talks about a general calling as it relates to all believers so Ephesians 4:1 for instance walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called there's a general call to salvation there's a call to surrender there's a call to serve that is universal for all believers and even could be understood collectively corporately for the body of Christ but then we also see throughout scripture an individualized purpose as I like to call it as it relates to calling when you look at God's use of an even as we saw in some of the scriptures that were read this morning during our worship table whether it was Noah or Abraham as we saw we saw Jeremiah we saw Isaiah reference but you also have of others there was an individualized purpose that God set these people apart to serve a particular role in his kingdom goal and his kingdom Enterprise and understanding what our calling is that individualized purpose that God has for each one of us I think it's critical for us to fulfill God's will and ultimately for his kingdom to grow to the intent and the level that He desires no that's helpful and so you talk about this idea of a calling or int God's individual purpose for for us as believers and so Jim let me invite you in a little bit is there is there a difference if any at all between what some might consider a calling into vocational ministry and just a calling in terms of any other vocation a believer might enter into yeah short answer is I think there is a difference both as Scott said our callings and come under that general banner but there's no question that when you look at Scripture and and we did we read some that I think would fit into this extended category of a specific call now and I don't know it I think maybe we need some new terminology I don't know exactly what that is but we just talk in terms of call to ministry or you know gospel ministry and stuff a lot of that can apply to everybody but there seems you know there is a calling to whether it's leadership or some role in the shepherding of God's church and the advancement of the gospel that you know is really important and I think that has to be distinguished that the term vocation you know has some baggage to it like all terms do just because that almost suggests that we get paid for it and I don't think the calling that God you know places on our lives the leadership is all of a sum something that he owes us a salary or an office or a title but nonetheless it's not any less than a very specific calling I think some of the things that distinguish that from saying just a general calling and maybe a vocation that somebody pursues and goes to college to get a career out you know a degree and one would be compulsion I think this is something that we're you know we we are consumed with even obsessed with to the point that we're willing to give our lives but most people you know that just have a vocation are not necessarily ready to give their lives to that vocation but this thing of gospel ministry or leadership in the kingdom whatever the case may be it is something we're called to suffer for if if need be you know another thing is appointment I think the church acknowledges and assigns individuals that you know give evidence of this calling they set them apart the church doesn't set people apart to be accountants or you know to be schoolteachers it doesn't mean those roles are not important it's just there is a role in the church that is attached to this you know this thing of ministry leadership it's a lifetime call you don't retire from this so I think that distinguishes it from a vocation we may we may retire from a position but we don't retire you know from the calling last thing I would say is the word determine it comes to my mind in an in a vocation when you are called to a vocation you know that pretty much determines the decisions you make where you go where you live because that's the first thing and then you make disciples in that context but in this thing of the calling you know of that we're talking about this this further step it's the calling that determines you follow the calling and then you say I'll figure out how to put bread on my bed so I just learned that none of us get to look forward to retirement so thank you for that but no that's really helpful and you brought up some really really key ideas and I think if it's well with one of the questions from our audience here and it's this and maybe Scott you could kind of start us off here it says how do you know that you're called to do something and it's not just your own heart's desire that's really oh that's really good question we you know when I was growing up there was always this idea but God called versus a momma called preacher you know so did your see you guys are so young you don't appreciate the joke but but you know the idea was why why am i in the ministry is it because my mom wanted a preacher is a son or is it because God called me so there's always this tension and I think there are a couple of ways to look at it and one of them begins I think dunk shadows is exactly right there's this internal compulsion there's something about leading in the church or going to the mission field that just drives you to do something and your inability to sit back and do nothing I think it was Spurgeon that said if you can do anything else go do that but when you can't it's because God's got his hand oh so I think that would be one I think a second would be that somehow there's an external affirmation people look at you and they say you're a good teacher you're a really good counselor you're a good leader when I hear you I feel like God's speaking to me there's this there's this idea of that God has gifted you for the calling and I think the third is that in your church there's a recognition that this is what so there is a set of partners and it could be something that begins small so if you're a college tutor or a seminary student we shouldn't anticipate we're going to become the lead pastor but it may be that we want you to teach in this youth sunday-school class won't you to lead here I think we can take those as both an internal compulsion and an external confirmation I think a fourth one needs to come into play here too in a world where people are consumed with immorality and with financial greed or other types that when you begin to think I think God wants me to go to the mission field you can pretty well bet the devil didn't put that idea in your mind right or if it's like hey what I want you to do is to give up the opportunity to live any way you want to live to be immoral and to pursue godliness and purity and lead God's people I doubt the devil put that in your mind either so it starts there the compulsion sticks with us and then I think there's affirmation that comes kind of time you know because all three of those aspects of affirmation I think you're exactly right to that students question because Paul modeled all those in the second half of Galatians 1 he talks about the personalized aspect this was between him and the Lord and ultimately he went off to Arabia and he began to exercise that gift where he then saw and then came back to Peter and the Apostles got some private affirmation and then he had the public affirmation of people recognized and even not seeing him by face but God was using him and all those three aspects you talked about we're evident in Paul's life and I think it's also important to note that they don't always follow the same sequence sometimes you get the public affirmation before you've been personally kind of begun to discern it and and so I think those things can fall out of sequence but they'll all typically three I think be there let me invite you in a little bit Ron jor before you came to join us here at Southeastern you were a pastor in the Baltimore area and and so now you're here you're teaching you're still doing ministry but the question is if you if you were to say hey I was on call to preach and a pastor but now you're here teaching primarily how do those things fit together I'm actually currently living in disobedience to the call profession now to be honest if I can if I could rewind the table a little bit further back Annie and the kids and I were in Texas I was pastoring it was an interim pastor at a church in Fort Worth and while I was there on the church in Baltimore in the neighborhood of Brooklyn called me and said hey we would really love for you to be the pastor here if it weren't for the sense that God was calling us to go to Baltimore we wouldn't have gone to Baltimore anyone who is aware of Baltimore and aware of the realities of life there that's not exactly a a pleasant move for your family and young kids and our baby at the time our youngest was about six weeks old or so when we moved and so it was it was a pretty serious move for us and you know of course our family that lived about an hour or so away from us they they hardly ever visited us before for obvious reasons they were afraid that if they drove to Baltimore they wouldn't be able to drive back from Baltimore because someone would have stolen their vehicles or something like that but but that was what what brought us there and that's what kept us there during riots and all the things that were going on there are plenty of times where people had come to me personally friends of mine pastors from from out of the area they would come and they would just kind of set me aside and just privately ask me how long do you plan on being here are you gonna you know this is a good start this this is a good you know good place to begin and all that but how long do you plan on being here and my answer was always the same I'm here until God tells me otherwise as long as we're here we're all in because the Lord is the one that brought us here and the Lord is the one that's going to sustain us while we're here so going to your question now about about moving here the only reason that we left Baltimore to come here was because we sense that God was moving us here we had talked about the ministry I recognized some of the needs that were there on the ground in Baltimore the need for for folks like you who are well trained and well equipped to go and to make disciples in hard places and difficult difficult neighborhoods and so on I recognized that that there was something that the Lord was growing in me to be a part of this and if it weren't for that I would still be pastoring in Baltimore so yeah there were years in Baltimore where I sense that God was calling me to Pastor this church here and then it was after obviously the affirmation from folks here affirmation from my family even affirmation from our church and from our elders where they said after a long period of Prayer they said pastor we think that the Lord wants you to go there and and like I said if it weren't for that I wouldn't have gone great could I jump in and just say I I think that none of us that are in equipping role in a place like this feel like we gave up our calling you know to come and do this I remember when I first I didn't sign up for this when I first started I swore I'd never teach or do dr. Walker that's another story but but I remember sitting down with my mentor when I first began to feel like you know I this is something I needed to pursue and I said to dr. fish at southwest of Sydney I said dart fish I've got a preach you know and I and he you know he said to me at them he said Jim you'll preach more as a professor that you ever did as ambassador and and he was right but my point is my calling didn't change you know even though it changed location and even expression to training pastors as opposed to being a senior pastor when God leads you know in these relocation calling some it that necessarily mean that we have to deny that calling that compels us and consumes us now that's helpful to think through callings sometimes I think we have a static picture that it's gonna look the same always well we're not the same always and so that's helpful let me grab another question this is a great question and we won't do it justice here but we can start and so the question is this how would you recommend that women discern between the call to missions versus the pressure that women feel to go since roles in the American church are so limited so there's a lot in that let me just say a couple quick comments while you guys real a little bit let me just say a couple quick things and again I think there's so much wrapped up in this the first is I think it highlights an imbalance that unfortunately and sadly has historically been true in the world of missions and that imbalance is women tend to go to the hard places men don't and so part of what this brings up is women we need you on the mission field and a multitude and a variety of places and ways to serve but men you need to step up we need more men on the field so I would say that's one thing the other I would just say generally whether it be missions whether it be church planting or any sort of ministry to go because you're either disenchanted to go to get away from something to go because well there's nothing else for me to do so I'll kind of go do this or try this I think that's the opposite of calling and you won't last you either be better you may burn out or who knows perhaps something worse but it also highlights I think what we haven't done well in our church is talking about the opportunities and the places for women to serve in the church and even even among missions around the world so other thoughts no I think that's right I'm what I would the only thing that I would add to that is that the calling that God places in your life is a calling to say yes to some things and to say no to some things and it's a determining factor and I think whether you're male or female I don't speak especially to the young ladies here that God puts a call in your life and a call on your heart I would encourage you to pursue that with the vigor and the enthusiasm that anybody else is going to pursue it and then the opportunities will come doctor Shaddix made the point earlier that our our calling to what we may traditionally called vocational ministry doesn't necessarily mean that's where you earn your money in your vocation it's a calling to the church it's a calling to serve the people of God to to reach the unbeliever it's it's this calling in compulsion and so my encouragement be to pursue that if it's in the local church let God lead you in that and do that with vigor enthusiasm and allow the roles and responsibilities to come and then if it's to the mission field pursue that with vigor and enthusiasm but don't let the disenfranchisement of the church Drive you to the mission field but at the same time don't let the difficulties of the mission field leave you back here in the local church I think we probably need to deal with this question later in a video we can get somebody who can give some more thought to it but I I would at least want to say that at this point let's just really lean into what God's calling you and pursue it and allow God to open the door that he wants to open you know the Bible is pretty clear in the book of Revelation God opens the door nobody can shut it and so I think it's the same thing refers to calling I'll give all of you an opportunity to kind of weigh in on this I know and we talked about this even coming into this conversation that I mean a part of my growing up you know I heard about calling I mean that wasn't an unusual thing to hear about I would say there's question about terminology these days and and effectiveness of that but I would say we probably don't hear about it as much and so if I can use the phrase I think we've lost a little bit of this emphasis or there's a valuing of the idea of calling within preaching and teaching and so I'll just you know jump in as you'd like but why do you think we may have lost some of that and then do you have any recommendations for how we might recover a healthy understanding of calling I think some of that has been driven by the the right motive of kind of mobilizing the church as a whole and rather than creating a varsity JV type of mon-sat and mentality or an elite status for you know that there's some times that that connotation carried in in maybe generations in the past in an effort to kind of diffuse some of that wrong thinking I think we kind of leveled the playing field in such a way that really any significant or calling of any kind lost its significance in other words there's no distinction and in that you do lose that individualized purpose and so I think that's some of the the reason why you don't hear it spoken of in churches as much as the fear of misunderstanding that and wanting to kind of steer away from that elitist mentality when in reality that's that's not it at all at all and I think what we have to do is we have to kind of recapture to this specific point recapture some of the the value and the significance of the roles and responsibilities of church leadership if we use that terminology to where we don't feel like we have to apologize when somebody asks us what do you do for life well I'm a pastor you know and it's almost like you have to say I'm sorry for that and because we've gotten to that point in our culture and in our churches we've kind of minimized this calling I think the other thing is that you've tried to steer away from what would otherwise be mystical or mysterious language and an effort to kind of ward against a subjectivism or experiential type of understanding we tried to maybe become too objective and remove the spirits leading and the conversation about the holy spirit and even kind of our personal interaction with the Lord and so to avoid some of that confusion again we've swung the pendulum too far and avoided it all together kind of piggybacking on but what you said Scott in America we don't like balance we're very weird species at least amongst humanity and what I mean by that is we saw kind of in generations past this this this massive emphasis on the pastor as being the sacred call of God and everything else is secular and unimportant and you know who cares about the the bus driver you know when you could as yours ain't yo mama mama doesn't want a bus driver mama wants a pastor you know and and all that and so what happened then in recent years is there's been a pendulum swing to the other side that says all of work is sacred all of work is is is is a gift of God all of work is worship and amen to that of course but in our imbalance culture we swung the pendulum all the way over here to the point that now everything is just kind of flattened and there isn't any nuance or distinction between any of of the particular vocations that God may call us to I I think that from our standpoint what we need to do is we need to recognize one that yes all of work is sacred and all of work is is is precious in the sight of God all of work is worship or at least can be worship to him but at the same time recognize that it was kind of in the Ephesians 4 vain that the Lord has called specific people for the specific tasks of equipping the church to do the work of the ministry so even in Ephesians 4 there's a separation here between those who are doing the work of the ministry and those who are equipping them to do so and and I think in that sense we recognize you know there's no difference you know in terms of the value of these of these of different ways of serving the Lord there's no difference in the value of them but this role here seems to have a certain degree of importance and significance in the sense that if these people here don't exist at least using Paul's logic the work of the ministry isn't going to be done because there's no one to equip and to guide and to lead into shape for those particular tasks so this task here in Ephesians for these and these group of tasks seems to be of quite a significance in the mind of Paul in the mind of the Lord I appreciated what Roger started off with he said here in America I'm not sure that that's a question they're wrestling with and a lot about places across the you know this this flattening out and this the emphasis on calling and so I do think there are a lot of factors that are part of our culture here you know in America in the Western Church that affect this and another one that comes to mind is individualization you know it's just the you know we we want to you know our rights you know our origin to our dreams or and when you do that you you separate yourself from one of the most important aspects of being the church and that's community and calling I think is very very closely tied to community Church recognizes church affirms sometimes the church leads out like you said and recognizes it before the individual but even when the individual recognizes at first there still is a responsibility to an accountability to to the community of faith and when you separate that out and this becomes about me and what I sense in isolation it's gonna have a tendency to get really skewed and and I think I think we see a lot of that now this is good and enriched and helpful I know for me and hopefully for everyone else and we've got so many good questions here we're gonna have many conversations I think that we'll follow up one so unfortunately this has to be our last question I think I'm just going to direct this at you Scott and maybe we'll do more of this in the conversation after conversation but can you just briefly and briefly not not the pastoral briefly but briefly just throwing shade at me like three times now Greg do we have a council session taking time right now well briefly share with us you know kind of about your about your calling and maybe what's one or two ways that you kind of hold on to that and the daily grind of life and ministry and yeah it's it's interesting when I look back at my calling it was discerned with some of those different elements of affirmation but in and but maybe a non-traditional sequence in that other people were recognizing it I had other certain individuals who were investing in me recognize it and then God convinced me of it and I had to really wrestle with that one of the things that my mentor talked about it's funny that we've had conversations were referred to well my mentor taught me or my mentor told me I think that's a big part of helping discern a calling is that that discipleship and investment that other people were making in each other but one of the things he told me was to really wrestle with a call don't be scared of wrestling with it if you think you're called to something wrestle with it and determine am i or am I not that could come through experience and exposure and attempts and various things but it also may come through personal spiritual kind of those Jakub moments where you really wrestle with the Lord the discerning guy what are you calling me - what are you telling me - and the reason that was so essential and he told me this ahead of time and now in the last 20 years of ministry as I look back I can absolutely see the wisdom he said Scott there will be times in ministry that the only reason you persevere will be because you know you're called and if you haven't wrestled with that on the front end you're going to get to a point whether it's the circumstances in the church and your own personal life your relationships that matter most of you some of those things finally I says whatever may be will dictate to you that you take a detour that you go off the path but the one thing that will keep you cemented into it and faithful will be your recognition of the call God you've called me I can't walk away and I know in my own life there's been seasons where I would have prayed God if there's anything else I can go do kind of like that wasn't God I'll do this this would work I could go take that job I've got this degree I could go to that and sure enough the one thing that would convince me on my knees before God you can I've called you and I would have short-circuited God's will for me and the other people that God's called me to invest in if I had walked away but the calling was what convinced me to persevere and so I would encourage you don't be scared of wrestling with the call if it's things you're asking questions with continue to ask for over in prayer seek wise counsel and wisdom and keep wrestling with it because it'll be critical for you as you move forward

Channel: Southeastern Seminary

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Keywords: Southeastern, Baptist, Theological, Seminary, Chapel, Message, Jesus, Preaching, God, North Carolina, Wake Forest, Gospel, Danny, Great Commission, Training, Education, Southern, Boyce, SBTS, Al, Mohler, Urban, Ministry, Ronjour, Locke, MWBTS, NOBTS, Jamie, Dew, Gateway, Universtiy, ERLC, Matt, Chandler, B21, IMB, NAMB, SBC, SBC19, SBC20, NCSU, ECU, UNC, Duke, Divinity, School, Platt, Greear, JD, David, Whos, Your, One, Midwestern, Akin, RDU, Conversations, That, Matter, New Orleans

Id: E-M3kAcR3-w

Length: 27min 21sec (1641 seconds)

Published: Tue Aug 27 2019