Predestination Debate: For whom did Christ die? - Part 2 Q&A

[Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] so welcome back to the second part of our debate predestination for whom did jesus die and tim and dr james white and dr michael brown are waiting to deal with your questions because this is the time when you have the opportunity to come back and say what you really think about the things that they've been saying the texts and emails are already beginning to come in and now is an opportunity for you also to ring in and put your points to them let me just read some of the general type of emails that have been coming like this one from joyce who says thank you dr brown and white for the time that you've taken to be with us at church without walls joyce says she's 72 without much education but she says i know i have a solid foundation in christ and she says at 13 she became a child of god and she says this may sound silly but i think you're both right and you're both wrong on the other hand we've got some emails like this one which has come in which says if jesus had already decided where i am going what is the point of bothering i really find it very frightening but i could already be on my way to hell having spent a very bad life but tim quite a lot of questions have come let me just throw them over to you and you might want to put them out this one from peter he says a tremendous debate on an issue that has occupied much of my thinking over the last six months please could i ask dr james white if he has ever issued the gospel invitation to everyone in a room of christians and non-christians if so is that not something dishonest because according to dr white our law did not necessarily die for everyone in that room and david and joan have written and said what about babies if as a christian i believe that i believe that only the elect would be saved then i would not have risked bringing children into the world in case they were not of the elect and robert has written in and said mr brown says the world always means every single person in the world he quotes john 1 29 and john 3 16. but other verses such as john 12 29 it says the world went after him we all know that every person in the world did not go after him so the term world does not always mean every single person in the world tim over to you thank you very much gordon that's good to hear some of those um some of them to uh james white i'll put them to you now uh has uh uh the first one about uh is it dishonest have you ever given an appeal i would be very happy to answer that question just a matter of months ago i stood inside the masjid of a mosque in arasmia outside of pretoria south africa and debated one of the leading islamic scholars in the world on the subject of sin and salvation and i made it very clear that anyone who turns in faith and repentance jesus christ will find him to be a perfect savior that is exactly the same message that the apostles delivered i do not have to know the identity of the elect i simply have to present the gospel i do not have to be able to look into someone's heart and say oh there is an elected person there is a like person there are people like that they're called hyper calvinists i'm not one of them are people who lie about me about that but i'm not a hyper calvinist and the reality is that we are called to make a clear gospel presentation and it is not up to us to know the identity of the elect the only way that could be a valid question is to somehow the identity of the elect is revealed to us where do the apostles preach a message that says because jesus did this for you therefore you do this they never made they never preached that message i've never found in the new testament good answer and the one from roberts about the world and the world going off yeah my uh it was john 12 19 he was pointing to the pharisees said to one another look this is getting us nowhere look how the whole world has has gone after him my point was that the world never is a term for the elect that it either means humanity in its sinfulness or a general depiction of of humanity so here the pharisees are basically saying look everybody's following him it's a generic statement and it's on their lips too it's not meant as a theological statement but when when it says in john 1 that the world didn't receive him or the world didn't recognize him and then john 1 29 he takes away the sins of the world i mean contextually you've already established who it is in john 3 16 the world that is condemned in darkness outside of him is the world that he loves and sends his son to in first john 2 2 he's the propitiation which is an actual payment that turns away wrath not just for our sins who the elect but also for the whole world which is then redefined or mentioned again in first john 5 19 the whole world lies in wickedness that it cannot be a phrase that just refers to the elect it has to be broader than that to be consistent with biblical usage that was my point okay and there were two ones really the the first one was where if jesus has already decided you know it frightens me and the other one you know should we bring babies into the world if there's a risk of them you know not making it well god has placed within us and answered the second one desire to uh create life and to experience life so uh the reality is the judge of all the earth will do right and so that that's really a question about god's goodness and the second person saying i've lived an evil life again every christian theist already believes that jesus knows as god who's going to be saved and who is not so that's actually a question for both michael and i because both of us would affirm yes jesus has that knowledge he is well aware of that both of us would also have the same response that individual if you are fearful before god for the life that you have lived take that as the work of the holy spirit within you and flee to christ there is only one way you cannot enter into the presence of a holy god based upon your own works you already know the sinfulness of your own heart god has provided a perfect way of salvation to every person who will repent and believe in jesus christ his sacrifice is sufficient to every person who returns returns to him now the difference between michael and i is how you'll be able to do that my prayer is the holy spirit of god will move upon your heart and will reveal the glory of jesus christ to you i'm being consistent at that point and michael would have the exact same exhortation to you flee to christ if you're fearful of the wrath of god flee to christ he is the only one who can give you peace with god okay thank you can i yes we've got so caller but you go for it yeah just just very quickly in in terms of babies i i don't agree with calvin who said that some are are doomed from the womb to certain destruction and i do see deuteronomy 139 speaking of of children that had no knowledge between good and evil and jesus calling little children as an example there there is a good case we can make for mercy being shown because of unaccountability and and not responsibility for sense but that's a separate debate but as as far as the question i i know james to be a soul winner i know him to go for the lost i know him to reach out he's reached out to mormons for years that's helped with you know part of his apologetics work is involved with that so i don't question that and and he is consistent in reaching out and sharing the gospel but i will say this since we agree that the person has to respond and a person is being told that i see no benefit whatsoever in saying now they start studying and say what if i'm predestined to to heaven or predestine hell or predestined to be among the elect i see it very easy for that person to now think well what's what's the bother you know i'm in or not so i don't see how his theological system helps because we're ultimately telling that person you have to respond and plead to god for mercy you can't do it on your own you need him turn to him so i see a problem there both ticked off one of the questions i had which is good um ken welcome ken from reading um welcome to the debate what's your question yeah very interesting i didn't quite catch the whole program but maybe this question is a bit off the beam but in the 1930s in england a certain canon mosley completely repudiated in the church of england he completely repudiated the idea of a vicarious sacrifice of atonement you may not be familiar with him but his idea i just like to hear your input on that thank you very much ken we appreciate that uh contribution uh the repudiation of the vicarious sacrifice by canon mosley in the 1930s yeah i mentioned i mentioned in my opening that michael and i are starting with a foundation that we don't share with a large number of liberals and that is in reference the whole concept of atonement uh and that there have been many theories down through church history the ransom the satan theory for example and the the the federal theory where where jesus uh you know is is well there's just many of them and and we are both starting with the idea that there is a vicarious uh penal substitution involved and that places us these days outside of many circles uh where those things are being questioned but obviously i think michael would agree with me here in most of those circles biblical authority isn't considered to be very important anyways yeah it's a fundamental doctrine and for me as a jewish believer in jesus it's very fundamental the whole concept of substitution something that we start with in the hebrew scriptures that explains the cross ken um i don't know whether you're still there ken what what what point did you want to raise specifically on that oh we've lost him so we both repudiate the repudiation okay that's good um when when it comes down to it we're talking about what's the effect on evangelism what is the effect on a christian's walk with god and i'll put it to both of you and what's the effect on our view of god and his co sovereignty of the two positions i'll ask you first and then i'll ask james well i absolutely affirm god's sovereignty and god's freedom and see that he set things up a certain way where he does give us ability to respond or reject that he did in his freedom and i see that reflected from genesis to revelation literally even beginning with genesis 6 where god grieves over human choices if if he predestined those human choices it becomes an inconsistency to me in the very nature and character of god his display of love for the entire world does impel me to go all the more now here's the thing james may say that i believe out of every tribe and people group there will be a people but he doesn't know for sure in this particular village that they're going to be any elect that are there with 20 people in the village i know for sure there's the potential for salvation of any one of those people because the blood of jesus or whatever all of them might be yeah now again i don't wanna i don't i don't wanna speak for him in terms of that i what in my years as a calvinist the first message i preached on this in my home church thinking that that it would be okay to do it even though the pastor totally rejected those ideas i thought i'm not really saying and he always said if you preach that no matter how you preach it people are going to say well why bother praying for my husband he's lost if he's going to be saved he's going to be saved anyway and you say well god ordained the means through that person's prayer after i preached this message thinking i made it 100 clear that that would not be a right conclusion one of the ladies called the pastor and said my husband's an alcoholic why bother praying he's either going to be saved or not i said i i didn't mean that i didn't want to say that and yet that's the conclusion just a a woman sitting there came to kind of innocently okay we're never going to be entirely balanced but we've got another caller on the line do you want to answer that or answer oh i gotta hear his responsibility i gotta hear that i'd like to hear you on the grieving of god we are never commanded to go identify the elect that paul says i endure everything for the sake of the elect the elect exists and paul did what he did for their sake but he didn't know who they were i don't even think paul knew who they were and so i am commanded to preach the gospel to every person in that village and it never crosses my mind whether they're zero or twenty that's god's business it's not my business my business is to playing proclaim the gospel that's the power of god that is the only way anybody gets saved and when you ask what's the pastoral and final implications of all this i i take it back to the finished work of christ i have seen so many systems that because christ's work was made a potentiality that does not guarantee now and i just need to say something michael michael pointed out well look you know it still has to be applied yes we believe that we believe in the order of saludas i believe it has to be applied i was a child of wrath until god worked in my life that's not the question i was still united with christ in his death the elect were united with christ in his death so it was a personal union between my savior and myself in his death and that to me is the very foundation of my assurance of salvation wonderful i'll ask about the grieving of god later um robert from manchester robert welcome to the debate hello good evening and right i think my points actually been slightly picked up a few moments ago but i'll uh i'll go over and again follow than the queue it's uh it's a james uh good evening james and basically if you don't have to do the pre-destination question and obviously you you fully believe in predestination would that be correct oh yes uh-huh right sorry the lion's cough there and the question again is is to do it with a question i've posed calvinists in the past and they can never start to give me a blunt answer and even tonight with all due respect i think you fudged it a little bit right where babies and children and or mentally handicapped people are concerned if they die obviously the ones that you believe are predestined are of the lord but the ones that are not predestined where would you honestly believe they are and if you're if you believe in us your opinion you will you will in your heart know the answer and i just like somebody because it's okay just to come out with it thank you very much robert okay put him on the spot no the only reason it's on the spot is aside from it being far removed from the from the topic is uh is the fact that it takes time to explain i think in a meaningful fashion a subject that is not directly addressed in scripture i mean there it would be nice to go you know turn to hebrews chapter 14 uh for the explanation of infants who die in infancy i believe god has the exact same freedom in the salvation of infants as he has in the salvation of adults what i must affirm is original sin and i must affirm the federal headship of adam from romans chapter 5 which means that everyone including infants are related to adam in his fall that's the only reason why we're having this discussion because death has passed to all people we wouldn't be talking about infants dying in infancy if they are not living in a world where they're living in a fallen world and if they were sinless death wouldn't be an issue for them but they fell in adam and so the question then becomes their you know what about the person who dies think about this if you simply as many people do simply say i don't care who it is it doesn't matter they must go to heaven that's it you're saying that abortion is one of the greatest heaven filling devices ever devised by man and think about that for just a second my confession of faith says that elect infants who are they i don't know is that all of them i don't know god has the exact same level of freedom in graciously electing adults as he has in this area as well and fundamentally i go the judge of earth will do right and certainly many of the reformers said well all infants who died in infancy will will go to heaven okay uh they weren't living a day like we're living in where that could have incredible meaning and ramification so i give god the exact same freedom in this matter and it's certainly not something that i think is a matter to be used by any side because as a pastor in a church you have to deal with this issue all the time and pat answers may go well in the seminary classroom but they don't really fly too well at the hospital i've been a hospital chaplain as well thanks so we appreciate that and you've written books on the subject as well thank you very much um robert for the question we're going to go back to the control room now to gordon who's got the twitter tweets and emails and texts gordon yes there's lots of activity on the uh tweets coming in at the moment some like this one from somebody called one-way blog says excellent debate respectful tone and scriptural reference referencing key to keep on track and us learning and terrence says spurgeon had it right when he said we're all born arminian it's for grace of god which makes us calvinists and andrew says no one chooses to follow christ john 6 44 this means we don't choose but god chose us but coming to some of the questions that are coming in by email and text him how about this one there's quite a few who are asking about the word election and this uh from lee says as i understand the elect election is not a salvation verse it usually refers to the jews elected to be in the land and a similar one which has come in which says the use of the word elect in the bible means one jesus two angels three israel four believers and it says for first free and not salvation why should the fourth one be and if i can just keep going with a couple more jay in memphis tennessee says puritan john owen in the death of christ argued that if jesus died for every sin of every person even the lost then he died for their sin of unbelief therefore no one should suffer in hell for the unbelief what say ye mr brown let me just throw one more in it's from eddie who says and i don't know maybe our panel know the answer he says carl bath would disagree with dr brown and dr white for bath jesus represents the elect and the reprobate dietrich bonhoeffer described barf's view of predestination as the greatest piece of theology in the 20th century tim over to you wonderful thank you eddie for throwing in carl bart we have various emails on that one um john owen michael brown of course he died for this every sin he died for the sin of unbelief for the elect as well and forgiveness does not come until someone receives it as a gift so again every sin has been paid for every sin for the person that goes that james and i both agree will be with the lord forever that has been paid for but nothing is actuated and even though that unbelief has been paid for nothing is actuated until someone receives the gift and receiving the gift is not a work and nothing we could boast about with all respect to spurgeon of course i believe it's grace and all grace never occurred to me that that it wasn't grace and all grace that i had anything to boast of other than what he did but the gift must be received so when peter says repent be baptized every one of you in the name of jesus christ for the remission of sins well hadn't their sin of unbelief already been paid for of course but it will the forgiveness will not be actuated as someone turns and believes it's it's simple it's not a theological conundrum at all i wonder whether winston churchill had a red spurgeon because he had a phrase that you know if you don't vote labor by the time you're 20 you've got no heart and if you don't vote conservative by the time you're 40 you've got no head um on this um that's politics but winston churchill he can't argue that can he have an american parallel yes yeah yeah that if you're not if you're not a liberal when you're a teenager you don't have a heart if you're not conservative and you're out and you'll have a headache does it apply to armenianism and calvinism and i've never had a heart evidently yeah actually on that point it can sound quite cold sometimes you know the the politics there but it can seem quite cold is there rejoicing in heaven is there is there do you rejoice when people give their life to the lord i don't i don't know how unless unless you're accepting the idea that the good god of creation who created all things for his own glory could be cold the passion that is shown by the savior the passion is shown by by the disciples uh the self-sacrifice of of of the of the missionaries i i don't know how that could be viewed as coal i mean some in a situation where it's it's it's very cerebral and someone makes a decision for the lord is is that just taken as read that's possible i reject i reject the idea of of it being very cerebral it is simply taking it basically what what the question is assuming is if you want to ask the questions that the bible invites us to ask about god's sovereignty and engage these texts in a meaningful fashion that somehow that makes you cerebral and cold and and dispassionate and um i i simply reject that idea now i i just because i turned to you i could have said is it stupid to take the other position that i believe god set things up to give an opportunity to every person to be saved and then to infallibly save those who put their trust in jesus james believes that god could have chosen to save 10 more or 20 more or a million more or billion more but only chose to save a certain amount and not because of anything in them therefore he willingly chose to damn certain people to hell that he had the power to save i i reject that and i do feel that that that speaks against aspects of the nature of god that are elsewhere revealed as he continually opens up his arms to those who will ultimately reject him and offers them things from the heart and expresses grief and disappointment those are the way it's expressed in earthly terms when they refuse so i i do believe that a valid objection can be there it's not to say that james is cold or that he does not rejoice as much as i do or pray for the loss as much as i do but something fundamental in the system says he cho he made a choice before the creation of the world to save this group for nothing in themselves simply his sovereign choice and he could have saved that other one or 10 or a million others and chose not to there there is a problem with that well and and but no there isn't a problem with that because think about what michael just said he set up the world so everyone has a choice the the amorite high priest was preached the gospel no he wasn't there have been millions who have died without ever hearing the gospel of jesus christ and god knew it when he created this world and placed them in that position and he knew they'd be lost so that's not an objection to reformed theology that's a rejection to simple christian theology that affirms god's absolute knowledge of the future which is why so many people end up rejecting all of this and becoming open theists or denying vicarious substitutionary atonement or all the rest this kind of stuff so i'm sorry when you make an objection against my position that's actually just as valid against your own uh that that vitiates your point except everyone has to respond to the light they have so god knows ultimately the fate of that amorite high priest i don't james said he's definitely lost i don't know that i don't know in what state he died i don't know what light he received and we there is accountability according to that that's made plain in other passages but still there is there is a sovereign choice that god made to save a mom and dad and three out of their four kids and not the fourth that easily he knew that was going to happen michael right right but he also knew that ultimately the fate of that individual was something that they decided whether to receive grace or not but he didn't have to create a world in which that happened so he knew my position is he is glorified in their reactions and in his salvation of those people how is he glorified in fact he just simply knew what was going to happen but didn't have a purpose in it we'll follow that up later we've got the more tweets coming in i didn't actually put the question about the the election jesus angels believers and salvation i'd like to get to it yes okay so we're going to go to the control room and we'll get to that as soon as we come back gordon thanks tim yes lots of uh tweets are coming through john michael scanlon he says i'm none the wiser so far i'm trusting christ whatever happens happens and mikola writes and says dr michael brown if christ's death doesn't save but only makes men savable is jesus really a savior and safrinos moss he says we don't know the identity of elect but your answer lies in romans 9. and just one more which is did jesus die for every sin committed even unbelief if he did then why are there people in hell tim still a lot of questions needing answers okay brilliant right we get back on track um so on the election and and the comments uh by uh eddie on carl oh please i went to fuller seminary i've had all of bart i swore bart off as soon as i graduated believe me um but uh i certainly disagree with bonhoeffer in regards to uh to bart and his bart basically made christ the elect one and and really laid the foundation for a lot of universalism in some ways but i'm not gonna get into that in regards to the subject of the elect here's a very very clear statement romans 8 31 what then shall we say these things if god is for us who is against us he who did not spare his own son but delivered him over for us all how will he not also with him freely give us all things now i say that us is the elect and i'm not sure what michael would say here because the very next verse says who will bring a charge against god's elect kata alec ton they you that is the elect of god and there is no charge to be brought against them god's the one who justifies and christ jesus is he who died yes rather who was raised was the right hand of god who also intercedes for us the same us of the previous is the us now perfect together remember the first hour that was broken apart and i say no you cannot consistently exegete the text of scripture this is very very clear and here is a use of the term elect that is clearly salvific and it's clearly of a specific people and it's clearly connected within recession as well okay um i want to pick up this other question um the sin of unbelief yeah sure well i've answered that let me just go go back to what james was just saying elect is used in different terms sometimes the entire nation of israel is elect but then people that walk away are cut off from the benefits and privileges first peter tells us ii peter that we're elect according to the foreknowledge of god and god has predestined a people you will not find a single scripture that speaks of the predestination to salvation of an individual to service yes but the predestination to salvation of an individual note there's a predestination of a people that's why the language is constantly corporate us us us so those who believe again every single sin was paid for at the cross the lamb of god takes away the sins of the world he is the propitiation not only for our sins but also for the whole world the us our that's the elect the whole world everybody else so he is the propitiation payment has been made if i refuse it if i refuse the complete payment of every one of my sins including unbelief i'm lost it's it's i can still exercise faith to receive that or reject it and the plain sense of scripture is constantly saying that same thing not if you are one of the elect and if jesus died for you then if you believe you're saved no but whoever whoever that word is true for everyone whereas when i'm telling that person it says whoever believes what i'm really saying is but you really can't believe unless unless you're elect and by the way even if you did believe it wouldn't have any effect because jesus didn't actually die for you in which case it becomes double talk but then we also have uh what's written first timothy 4 10 which i've i've quoted a number of times he is the savior of all men especially of those who believe his death saves who what does scripture tell us everybody everyone for whom he died or does it say he saves those who believe so that we all agree on that he saves those who believe not those who don't believe so he's the perfect savior of everyone who believes right i'm only interrupting you because we have richard from portsmouth who wants to ask you a question so um you know that gives you an opportunity to answer richard welcome to the debate hello thank you um yes my question is to dr brown it's to bring the subject back to the limited atonement uh my question is would dr brown say that the body of christ that is the the bread we break at the lord's supper would you say that the body of christ was broken for more than the body of christ that the body of christ said is uh believers in christ yes his body was broken for the entire world but it's only of benefit to those who believe when we say it was broken for us we're not saying it wasn't broken for anyone else but we are the only ones who recognize it and receive the benefit of it so the new covenant is made the new covenant is made with the house of israel in the house of judah but only a remnant actually enters into it at least initially so yes his body was broken for all that's why it says also in john 12 32 if he's lifted up on the cross he'll draw all men to himself it's only beneficial it's only efficient it's only real for those who receive so we partake of it the world doesn't but if if we say this is for us we're not saying it was not offered to others but we're the only ones who receive it therefore the only ones who benefit from it so does the world benefit from the death of jesus no in fact they're more accountable and more culpable before god and this further underscores the justice of god the wrath of god and the love of god all in one it's beneficial only for those of us who believe that's why the world does not partake of communion in a meaningful way they may go through the motions but it has no meaning and relevance for them because they have not been grafted in by faith okay thank you thank you richard for your question we'll go back to the control room tons of emails coming in gordon there's some quite sad emails coming in because people are i guess they're having their faith challenged tonight like this one from andy who says um he quotes some scriptures romans 8 29 proverbs 16 21 corinthians 15 22 and he ends up by saying i've since lost faith as i thought i was chosen but i know i'm not therefore it's hell for me for a thousand years and uh this one which says if prejudice predestination is true then that means that god created perhaps a majority of people for eternal torment but anyway uh jimin penny point in maryland he says michael you're wrong because the word word world does not refer to everyone all the time he says what about passages like john 1 10 and the same with john 3 17 and luke 2 1 and he clearly disagrees with you on this word world but he says thanks for the debate anyway it's super and there's one here for james where jess writes and says does james mean that we have to be called by god to be safe and jess says i've never felt or heard god call me so does that mean all i have believed about whosoever is all wrong if so i may as well be in hell now as i have no hope back to you tim thank you very much there's a few uh questions to either side um on this one if predestination is true god has created a whole swathe of people for destruction it's an objection to biblical theology as a whole i mean again any orthodox biblical christian believes that god knew when he created what the end result was creation was going to be the question is did he do so for a purpose or did he do so not for a purpose and i i'm afraid that a lot of people the questions are reflecting a real uh misunderstanding of uh really historic christian faith at this point because the idea of the idea of election is nothing new this is not some new concept everybody has a doctrine of election it's the specifics of how you you work that out i mean this has been an argument that's going on certainly since the days of augustine i believe much earlier than that in the history of of the church so we are revisiting issues that christians have been talking about for a very very long time and for a person to say well if this is true then i have no hope because i've not been called as if calling is some kind of voice that you hear from heaven romans chapter 8 specifically states for those whom before knew and that's an active verb on god's part it's not something him taking in knowledge that's something he does it's a choice to enter into a loving relationship with someone it's from the in the hebrew testament which is a very intimate term those whom he foreknew these he also predestined and yet what's called the golden chain of redemption those whom we predestined he also called and those whom he called he also justified those whom he justified he also glorified if you don't like one of these first parts you can't like the last part either worried glorifies but the fact is we are not told to know the identity of the elect the gospel message is repent and believe not speculate on the doctrine of whether i have been called whether i can be lost second blessings or anything else the message is very clear repent and believe and if you do that you will find jesus to be a perfect savior uh speculating about other things getting the heart the the cart before the horse and uh that's that's not not not the biblical way at all i've always been intrigued by the way that's that that sort of golden chain it missed out sanctified but just comment on it but in that golden chain again it's it's a people and this is the process from here to here how god deals with that people and the rest of romans leading up to that has told us how we become part of that people which is by faith i do believe that this opens the door for unnecessary speculation i do believe it can legitimate legitimately be a question that someone asked and said look i've tried to believe i've wanted to follow jesus i haven't been able perhaps i'm just not one of the elect as i understand scripture that's not a possible question for someone to even ask themselves because the free offer of the gospel remains i'd also say it makes a profound difference to that person standing before god on judgment day when that person says you created me from before all eternity with no possibility of me ever being saved simply so that i will glorify you in my damnation and destruction versus god saying i gave you every opportunity and you refused ultimately that person knows that they refused they hardened their heart they said no to the light that was revealed to them deuteronomy 29 29 is an important verse and i urge my calvinistic friends to to give it further consideration because i see you go way beyond scripture and make much out of things that god did not want us to make much out of the secret things belong to the lord our god that which is openly revealed belongs to us and our children to do all the words of this teaching therefore if only god knows the elect therefore if we know that we need to declare the gospel to everyone therefore if we know it's the same message we declare it to everyone and everyone has to make the same response let's leave the secret things to the lord and let's declare what is open and revealed and again about the term the world my point is it never means the elect it never can mean the elect even contextually over and over and over it obviously doesn't if it's jesus of this being the savior of the world for example in 1st john it has to mean the savior of of of all that come to him all who trust in him but it does not explicitly it cannot explicitly mean the elect just just on its usage throughout the new testament so john 1 actually proves the opposite of your point which is he was in the world the world didn't know him but the lamb of god dies for the sins of the world could i just before our next call just tip back to you james this distinction between the individual and the people so so taking your scriptures and saying they're applying to a people rather than to an interview yeah that's that's what just happened in romans chapter eight and i was i was fairly amazed as well this is just how god deals with people this those whom he justified justification is a very personal thing i am one i'm the one being justified before god peoples aren't justified individuals are justified because this is this has to do with their sin and so this is where i say it does lead to an impersonal thing this is where i say when jesus when the angel said you shall call his name jesus why he shall save his people not a people not a nebulous group that we can get into or out of depending upon our interactions he will save his people from their sins he will do that he will accomplish it he will not simply make it a possibility he will actually accomplish it it's a personal thing that's why the union with christ is so important and when you say but it's also a corporate thing well certainly because he doesn't save us alone and because he has chosen a well what does the scripture say as many as the sand of the sea so so this idea of limiting god's grace in this way uh god has chosen to be gracious to people from every tribe tongue people and nation and he didn't have to be that's the important point and to say that we are speculating about stuff that the bible doesn't say much about want to point something out that golden chain of redemption which by the way again is extremely personal and it's what god does every one of them is an active verb and nowhere is faith in there because faith is the work of god within his people that he does this in that is the section right before who shall then separate us from the love of god in christ jesus who can bring a charge against us that's the foundation of that beautiful section that continues on that that every christian in the sick room has held onto with all of their might and so so this is something has been revealed and it's something for us and for our children the holy spirit revealed it therefore we must deal with it okay thank you uh julie welcome to the debate hello and what i'd like to speak to is it james white that's right if um i thought of god's elect the jews and what i was thinking and if it's just the jews that were going to be saved why did the gentiles get called in to the vine why are we connected to god if it's just god's elect you know because i mean god does love everyone he loves everyone i'm not saying everyone's gonna get saved because you know they either refuse jesus or they accept him but i always think of god's elect as the jews and it's a bit disappointing if we think you know that the gentiles don't have a chance you know because god does love everyone and you know i'm a gentile i'm not a jew you know so i just think that you know whoever believes in jesus gets connected to the behind okay so that puts it back the other way in terms of the individual and the people as a whole the obvious misunderstanding i'm afraid is that uh god's elect are the jewish people that's uh even michael would say that there are uses of the term elect that are not limited solely to the jewish jewish people so that's that's where the misunderstanding is coming in yes the gospel goes out to the gentiles the gospel goes out to all the world the lamb has redeemed men to god from purchased men to god from every tribe tongue people and nation because that's what glorifies god and that election is to salvation michael said earlier there's no passage that says elections salvation ii thessalonians 2 13 but we should always give thanks to god for you brother and beloved by the lord because god has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the spirit and faith and the truth it's a direct statement that god from the beginning chose the thessalonians for salvation it's a salvific passage and it specifically says the means by which this takes place through sanctification by the spirit and faith and the truth so you have right there god's electing grace going to gentiles and grafting them into the body uh because it was god's purpose and even prophetically the the prophets point to the day when the message would go out to all the world you know matthew plays upon this this theme over and over again so the i think the misunderstanding is that i'm somehow saying that the elect is only the jews and and that's that's certainly not my fault can i can i respond to that you can but i want to just pick up because i asked him this question about the individual and the people you're saying election is the people the decision is the individuals yeah the the passage he quoted just underscores that there's no reference anywhere in the new testament to an individual you tim were predestined to eternal salvation you sam were were passed over as an individual even the jacob i've loved you so i've hated malachi 1 it's the speaking of nations there and it's obviously not every person in jacob would say that every person in malachi was lost the the thessalonians passage is underscoring that it is corporate is a group of people and he's saying look it's clear that you've been chosen for salvation it's not just for the jews these are some of the early believers to come gentiles this is proof that that this election this calling is not just for jews and what's the proof that you're saved this is the indication of it again it's not an individual passage i affirm every inch of romans 8 29 and following it's a glorious passage i rest in as well but let's remember paul has already established emphatically over and over especially in chapters four through six of four and five i should say in particular that that we are justified by faith by faith by faith he's already established that in overwhelming measure you cannot skip that now and then when we get to romans 11 he makes clear to individual gentiles that they can be cut off if they don't continue in faith so the promises remain to the people in him the sheep that hear his voice and follow him those that step outside of that can forfeit the covenantal benefits again it's always it's a people chosen in the messiah and it's totally individual the love that that i have from my heart towards god and him towards me is as personal individual as is possible and i reject the idea that if i don't hold to double predestination that somehow it's not personal okay um julie thank you very much for your call we're going to go to gordon he's got plenty more emails to pitch into this debate gordon yep we've certainly got plenty of emails coming in and you may feel that you're beginning to repeat things but i think people are trying to understand what you're saying all on the same theme martyr has written and said if salvation is predestined how do christians know if they're really part of the election and dennis in spain says the same point he says would it be possible to ask dr white a simple yet extremely important question please how do we know with full assurance in your soul how do you know with full assurance in your soul that you're one of the elect and he quotes juan peter 3 9 and there was a tweet in from denise who says how can one be sure that he's part of the elect for whom jesus died so lots of emails like that tim but here's just a couple of other points sandra is saying shabbat shalom gentlemen great debate what do you make of john 17 9 and 20 where yeshua states that he does not pray for the world but those who believe and have been given to him and just one more from billy for michael and he says is it only those with faith in christ that are saved if so then in what sense did christ's atonement atonement accomplish anything for those who've never heard the gospel tim back to you very much we'll start with um james if you picked up those two about um how do you know how do you have full assurance yeah i i'll i'll admit i'm a little disappointed that the the focus has has uh i guess it's inevitable uh in in some senses because uh these issues welcome to bring it back you've got no no if that's if that's where the need is then that's that's where the need is but um how does a person know that they are uh elect well the scriptures clearly tell us for example in john chapter 10 jesus talks about his relationship with the sheep now he had just said to certain the jews you are not of my sheep and he says to others you are of my sheep and as a result since i and the father are one your salvation is secure no one can snatch them out of their father's hand no one snatched them out of my hand that's the very foundation of why god is glorified and why jesus is a perfect savior he said in john chapter 6 39 that he came down of heaven not to do his own will but the will of him who sent him and was that will that of all the fathers give him he lose nothing but raise it up on the last day jesus is a powerful savior his people are known to him his sheep are known to him sheep do not choose their shepherd the shepherd chooses the sheep and there is an intimate relationship between them and jesus said my sheep hear my voice and in fact jesus specifically said i know them and they know me on the last day when he sends people false professors away what does he say to them i never knew you and so there is an intimate relation that exists between the individual in whose life the spirit of god has moved brought about regeneration granted them repentance and faith romans chapter 8 which comes before the golden chain beginning of romans chapter eight you know michael was saying look roman's already made it clear it's by faith by faith by faith that's true but romans chapter eight before gaining the golden chain specifically said that no one who is of who is dead in their trespasses and sins can do anything that's pleasing to god either you are alive in christ or you're dead in your sins either you're according the flesh or according the spirit and if you're growing the flesh you cannot do what is pleasing to god faith and repentance are pleasing to god if you have faith and repentance in jesus christ if you truly know him then god has granted those gifts to you and that is that is why you cry out only to christ and just really quickly if what you're asking is i'm concerned about continuing to know him or something like that let me just just say this if in your heart this is something jonathan edwards said so i'm stealing from somebody else if in your heart you want to love god as he truly is not as you would like him to be if you love those attributes of god that are the most reprehensible the natural man that's one of the greatest evidences of the work of grace within your heart that you're not editing god down okay good just to say that we will um i think we're going to just answer this other question about the lord praying not for the world and then i'm going to give both um james and michael uh summing up we're in basically the last six minutes so you'll have a couple of minutes to re-emphasize your points but just um john 17. yeah john 17 explicitly says what i was saying earlier that jesus prays for who those who will believe all right so so god is for knowing god is foreseeing and jesus is praying for those who will believe he dies for every single human being and accomplishes two things to repeat to pay for the sins of every human being and therefore to demonstrate to the world the extraordinary unmerited gracious goodness and love of god in a way that could not be demonstrated outside of the cross and then infallibly saves those who put their trust in him that's exactly what it accomplishes and that's what scripture tells us is accomplished it's interesting about the wouldn't lose andy jesus himself says i lost well there's only one that i lost and then repeatedly you know john 5 you won't come you won't listen acts 13 you count yourselves unworthy of eternal life so there's the constant response being put there on the individuals in their response and i would also say that if james is 100 sure without any possible question that he is one of the elect then he knows it is 100 sure that he cannot possibly fall away which i say leads to deception and potential arrogance if you say well i know i'm saved based on how i'm living then that gets away from the whole alleged assurance that we're supposed to have right okay um we are going to do closing statements it's not the most formal debate you've ever watched or listened to but i hope that you've all enjoyed it i'm going to ask michael to give your closing you've got about you know a minute and 45 seconds sure um in short god expresses his love for the entire world through jesus jesus said if you've seen me you've seen the father he healed those who came to him he fed the hungry that came to him and he died for the sins of every human being why because god so loved the world and his death is the propitiation not just for our sins the elect but the sins of the whole world based on which i can go to every human being and say look at the extent of the love of god that jesus shed his blood for you and for me and if you will turn to him and ask for his mercy he will save you he will forgive you and he will keep you faithfully to the end if you will put your trust in him i can look that person in the eye and quote john 3 16 and know that that person is one of those that person is one of those for whom the lamb died i can say that emphatically i can say atonement has been made the price has been paid what will you do with it and that person can receive god's grace by his grace or that person can refuse it throughout scripture we're told to make choices from beginning to end of the bible i say it again from genesis to revelation and therefore god is grieved when people sin against him he is grieved when the choice is refused he offers death and life to israel and says choose choose life joshua says choose whom you'll serve and then we come to the end of the book of revelation and the spirit and the bride say come and let the one who hears come and whoever is thirsty come the offer is for each of you jesus died for you if you'll turn to him he'll save you thank you and james the subject of our debate this evening was the extent of the atonement and i have tried to focus as best we could upon what the bible explicitly teaches about the atoning work of jesus christ most of the objections have been based upon other issues in regards to the concept of not accepting election or god's sovereignty or over human affairs and things like that but if we simply look at what the bible specifically teaches on this subject remember what hebrews chapter 7 said it told us that because jesus lives permanently he holds his priesthood permanently he is able to save completely those who draw near unto god by him since he always lives to make intercession for them the work of christ on the cross and his work as a high priest and interceding for us are of one thing michael has said that he can die for someone he doesn't intercede for i believe that is a fundamental error in the reading of the new testament the new testament is very very clear that this sacrifice of jesus christ was as a high priest and as such it accomplishes the bringing about a relationship between p of peace between those for whom he died and the father for whom before whom he intercedes okay thank you very much um just to say that you can follow online um ask askdoctorbrown.org aomin.org and our twitter feeds um predestination debates and our emails live revelation tv.com and i'm going to hand over to gordon to close out the show with further emails well tim thank you so much indeed we could go on for i think a few hours judging by all the emails and texts that have come in let me just give a final word to a few of you bernard says if god had already predestined some to be saved and some to be lost we've made our god a monster and john 3 16 shouldn't be in the bible on the other hand sue says god is not in our time we all have a choice but he knows ahead of us what it will be so in a sense he knows his elect you're both right god bless sue so we want to say thank you to so every one of you for emailing for texting and being part of our debate tonight we especially want to say thank you to dr white and dr brown bless you for being with us i trust that you know the lord as your savior tonight god bless you and thanks bye-bye [Music] you

Channel: Revelation TV

Views: 22,574

Rating: 4.9029126 out of 5

Keywords: Predestination, For whom did Christ die, Election, The Elect, Dr Michael Brown, Dr James White

Id: QzbJccGEk5I

Length: 55min 0sec (3300 seconds)

Published: Sat Jan 25 2014