The Atonement Debate: For Whom Did Christ Die? Part 1

welcome to the debates predestination for whom did Christ die especially warm welcome to viewers from the United States as we have two special guests I'll introduce in a short moment you can follow us on Twitter hashtag predestination debates email live at revelation tv.com and then after this first hour which will be a studio debate discussion we will open the phone lines so prepare to phone when the phone line comes up I'll give you another warning on that one but we won't be taking emails and texts and Twitter feeds during this first hour but please do start you know any comments you have on what is what topics are opened up here and we will bring them into the second half Gordon is waiting in the control room and I'll introduce him later but I would start by introducing two very special guests and I feel very privileged to be here with you dr. James White of Alpha and Omega ministries welcome to revelation TV good to be here again thank you and that's right you've been a few times in the past I have wonderful and dr. Michael Brown of if I got this right I was going to say line of fire which is your radio program but it is a fire school of ministry fire school of Manila fire and the only reason I'm confused is because there's so many different things you're involved in but and thank you very much for joining us Michael thank you real pleasure and just as part of the introduction you have a radio show which is syndicated across the u.s. called the line of fire yes and also a website and ask dr. Brown org also a TV show called answering your toughest questions great a ton a number of stations across America as well great okay thank you and um James you have another radio show and by the way we're welcoming all your audiences and tonight and and that is called the dividing line it's a primarily webcast that we do a couple times a week depending on when we schedule it we're sort of free about that wonderful so we certainly welcome your your audience and your viewers you know and hope we don't make a mess no we hope we keep it up to your standards so thank you very much wick this as I said you know previous debates it's not the Oxford Union here it's revelation TV we want to give a fair opportunity for both sides to present their case from the Scriptures and and then a fair opportunity to scrutinize what the other is saying so we're going to start with dr. James White on predestination for whom did Christ die I think it's important that we focus in upon what the real issue is because we have so little time and there is so much that we need to discuss most evangelicals believe that Jesus Christ died for sinners in reality in church history there's been a lot of discussion as to what the nature theat ailment was there's been all sorts of theories that have been propounded down through the ages but in in our day most people would agree that Jesus Christ died for our sins it's literally called substitutionary atonement that he took our place there are many liberal theologians that do not believe in that at all we are taking the more conservative track here but the question then becomes what is the what is the effect of Jesus's death and for whom did he die it's commonly believed by most people well Jesus took every person's place now does that mean every person from the time of the cross forward or everyone who had died before Jesus as well are they included when we talk about all in that way are we talking about everyone forward everyone back all is a body how exactly does that work and then what is the effect of that because there are many people who are Universalist who believe that Jesus did take every person's sin upon himself and therefore eventually every person is going to be saved honestly the issue needs to be boiled down to this what was the intention of Father Son and Holy Spirit in Christ going to the cross what did God intend to accomplish I believe we have to approach the subject from the Godward side that is what was God's intention what does God's Word say about this and does the Bible tell us what the intention of the triune God was when Jesus went to the cross did he go there specifically with each and every person in mind we have some beautiful hymns to talk about my name was written upon his hand well can the person who is going to spend eternity separated from God say my name was written upon his hand and I frustrated his purpose or when Paul says I have been crucified with Christ is there something special about that and what is the effect of Christ substitutionary death if it is made in behalf of people then does that make them savable or does it actually bring about their salvation or does it is it just a part of what will eventually bring about their salvation given the fulfillment of either a long or short list of other things I would like to suggest and I would like to prove from the text of scripture that Jesus is death upon the cross was a coven mental death God deals this people in the form of covenants and the new covenant was established in the blood of Jesus Christ it was a new covenant death and I would like to establish the fact that that has a specific audience and a specific perfecting effect for those for whom it has made specifically Jesus Christ died in behalf of his elect people and that in so doing he procured eternal Redemption in their place I'd like to just look at one particular text of Scripture sort of as a focus that we can look at all the universal texts and specific text in light of just this one text roman Hebrews chapter 9 verse 15 says for this reason he is the mediator of a new covenant there's the new covenant language so that since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed into the first covenant those who have been called very key text there a key word those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance there is a specific purpose in Jesus's death and that is so that those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance there the intention of what Jesus was doing upon the cross is revealed to us and so the two perspectives and I'll let dr. Brown define his own position but generally in this in this dialogue and discussion the two perspectives are that Christ's death in harmony with the decree of God and the election of a specific people was specifically intended in its salvific effect we're not talking about other effects in regards to the governance of the universe or something like that but it's specific salvific intent was to save a particular people and to provide absolute redemption for them and that it actually accomplishes that and that Jesus as our high priest then has initiated the New Covenant and as our high priest he then goes into the presence of the Father and intercedes for the exact same people for whom he has done okay thank you very much well timed Michael great thank you first it's a it's a great joy to be here with my colleague James whom I've got the greatest respect for standing on the front lines as an apologist to clearing the gospel to so many different people groups and doing it free lessly I commend him for this and this is a discussion within the family and my prayer was not that I would win a debate and I'm sure he's not praying that but rather that Jesus would be glorified and truth would be advanced the testimony of Scripture is overwhelmingly clear that Jesus died for the sins of the entire world so as to pay for the sins of every human being who's ever lived demonstrating the grace and love of God to the entire human race and securing the salvation of everyone who believes text after text after text is quite explicit about this even if we start in John's Gospel with John 3:16 which tells us the purpose of this all for God so loved the world that He gave us one of only son whoever believes in him would not perish but have eternal life the term the world is clearly defined in John's Gospel it cannot move the elect in fact John 1:10 he was in the world the world knew ham not John 1:29 behold the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world throughout John's Gospel the world we see there all humanity or humanity in its hostile State John 15 the world hates you John 16 the spirit of truth which the world cannot receive it cannot refer to the elect it refers to the entire world for whom Jesus died to demonstrate God's gracious love and reaching out to us and making a way of salvation for all who will believe and thereby securing the salvation of those who do believe first John 2 states it even more clearly telling us in the second verse that the death of Jesus Jesus died on the cross is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only but also for those of the whole world that same phrase the whole world occurs in John 1 John first John 5:19 where it says that the whole world lies under the power of the evil one and again if you look at every single reference to the world or world in first John it cannot refer to the elected either refers to humanity as a whole it refers to humanity and it's hostility towards the Lord that we have overcome the world and false prophets have gone into the world and love not the world in terms of the world limits hostility but it is speaking of humanity as a whole if you ask the question how could God have made it any more clear not only does it say he died for the world and then it defines the world for us not only does it say he's the perpetuation the payment for our sins that turns away wrath not for us only but also for the whole world when you realize that in first Timothy the second chapter it says he desires the salvation of all men and then that reflects God's sentiment expressed in Ezekiel 18 where he doesn't desire the death of the wicked but rather that they turn and live and then when you see expressions like Hebrews 2:9 that says he tasted death for everyone then you come to Romans the 11th chapter where it says that God has concluded all under that he may have mercy on them all if I said how could this be expressed there it's Jew and Gentile and first John 2 it's referring to to the Beavis but not just the believers the whole world and the whole world referenced in other places and then all men how else could God have conveyed it any more clearly when we look to see how atonement operated in ancient Israel atonement was made for the entire nation in Leviticus the sixteenth chapter however it was only effective for those who would comply with God's requirements if someone would not humble themselves on that day even though the atonement was genuinely made for that person they would be cut off and they would not benefit from it so exactly what God intended is exactly what he gets namely a demonstration of his love to the entire world and the salvation of everyone who will believe not only so but second Peter the second chapter the first verse speaks of false teachers who denied the master term used for the Lord for example in revelation 6 denied the master who bought them the identical word that's used without reference to blood by the way in first Corinthians the sixth chapter speaking of we were bought with a price so people denied these are hellbound false teachers who denied the Lord who bought them why because his blood pays for the sin of every human being and even if we look at Paul's desire expressed to Agrippa in acts 2 the 26th chapter he says I would that everyone was in the same condition I was in terms of being a true Christian just not with these chains I don't believe for a split second that Paul's desire exceeded the desire of God rather that reflects God's heart where he offers salvation freely that's why the repetitive call in New Testament which ends in the book of Revelation in the 22nd chapter whoever will whoever will whoever will the door has been open the price has been paid and lastly if we look at a passage like Isaiah 53 where the nation of Israel comes to a realization about the Messiah and the words are said O'Kane koulouri any who now saw Moscow Venice well surely he's he's carried our sicknesses and bore our pains Wanaka kashaf new who now goo and Mikaela him whenever we thought that he was being afflicted and punished razón since they come to the revelation of a harem near Polana with the cost of his wounds there's healing for us unbelieving Israel did not recognize that when the Messiah died he was dying for them it's an explicit statement Isaiah 53 not just for the elect but for the entire nation and world it's only afterwards that some realize what he has done so the Father's plan is perfectly accomplished all sins are paid for at the cross and the salvation of all who believe is eternally secured by what Jesus does okay thank you very much just to remind you our audience that we are discussing predestination for whom did Christ die and specifically the nature of the atonement and I've been taking a lot of notes you may - but please do use the hashtag on Twitter predestination debate and email live at revelation tv.com and the text number which is on the screen and we'll bring your contributions into the second hour James how do you answer or comments on what Michael has said he's gotten a whole list of scriptures there that we did well a couple of things first of all the term all and world all is all does that mean all without distinction or all without exception there are many places the term all is used to refer to the fact that we're talking about Jews and Gentiles for example when Michael went to John chapter 3 no one has suggested that I know of in this debate so far that the word world means elect I've never suggested that the reality is that God demonstrates his love toward the entire created order in the setting of Jesus Christ but even John 3:16 limits who benefits from Christ's death to those who believe and faith describes the gift of God I would note that most of Michael's response here was not specifically on the atonement but against the concept of election and saying that it's wide open and so on and so forth which these are all connected together and you can go and look at debates Michael and I have done on the previous issues but I want to focus primarily upon the subject of the Attell because the Bible tells us what the effect of the atonement is and if Jesus has substitutionary tone for every sin of every person then the only option is universalism it's the only consistent way that you can follow this through because of the nature of the work that Jesus did there's two different views of atonement being being presented before you Michael for example said well the atonement may in the Old Testament for the whole nation no it wasn't it was for those who drew near this is brought out specifically when you look for example the discussion Hebrews chapter 7 and Hebrews chapter 7 the permanent priesthood of Jesus is in view in verse 25 we read therefore he is able also to save to the uttermost or forever those who draw near to God through him that's referring the same group that we see in the Old Testament who drew near at the time of the offering of of the atonement same people if you did not draw near to God if you're if you're even a part of Israel that atonement was not for you if you did not draw near to God but those who draw near to God through him why why is able why is Jesus able to save to the uttermost what is what is it gives him that capacity since he always lives to make intercession for them and this is what I mentioned right at the end of my opening statement the high priest who offered the atonement then took the blood of the atonement and entered into the holy place and sprinkled that blood upon the mercy seat and so that is part of the same work and so one of the most important things to remember is that Jesus as our high priest is both the offeror and the offering and what's important to ask ourselves the question is who is Jesus interceding for this evening is the interceding for the people who are already under the wrath of God if he died for them he would have to be interceding for them you have to divide the work of the priest and say no you can have this over here and this separately you have to come up with some totally unheard of function of the priest where he no longer as the high priest intercedes for those for whom he dies what is the effect of the atonement the effect of the atonement according to Hebrews chapter 10 is the perfection of those for whom it is made how are those who are in the under the judgment of God today perfected by that atonement is the question we must be thinking thing great we'll give you a your formal sort of response to camera but then could I ask that after that will engage between us and will will start pinging some questions perfect yeah fundamentally the scriptures are explicit you have to get away from the explicit text to come up with this other scenario and in fact you have to come in with other theological arguments to do so John 1:29 behold the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world again it's not just God's demonstration of love but the sins of the world are taking away it cannot James just agreed said he's never said it it cannot refer specifically to the elect so there we have it stated and then again I ask how else could God have said it but the world all people not just us everyone else tasted death for everyone I see no other expressions that could be used that could make it any more clear when we come to Leviticus 16 again James is not correct their atonement was made for all the sins of the nation but if someone would not humble themselves they would be cut off the price was paid everything was accomplished that needed to be in fact it's the view of my opponent and friend and colleague that can go the way of universalism because I say it's very simple the price is paid for everyone first Timothy for he is the savior of all especially those who believe so if Jesus isn't receding for a specific group we see he's interesting for those who believe we see his intercession in John the seventeenth chapter it's really not mysterious God accomplishes exactly what he wants and expresses it in the most explicit possible terms and with all respect to James I have not seen an exegesis say of first John 2:2 or 2nd Peter 2:1 and some of these other passages that really does justice to what the text says in its plain grammatical clear sin and again if we think of the way of universalism it could easily be the Calvinists that go that way because of the fact that they want to say God accomplished at all well since the text explicitly saved Jesus paid for the sins of the entire world then you could say well then if we add anything to it then it's not just a work of God no salvation is for those who believe whosoever will let them come and drink freely of the water of life that's the universal invitation of Scripture okay can I just put a simple question are you basic both basically are arguing the the sort of L of chulip are you both agreeing that the that his the Lord's death was sufficient for all and limited to those who believe and are you basically both just arguing the two sides of that well that's supposed to be the focus is the the extent of the atonement and historically at least over the past couple of hundred years that's been focused upon the issue of what is now called the L of tulip yes but it means you dispute essentially that it is for the whole world you don't and you don't dispute that it's the miracle initiative the meaning the term before work he does not leave he does not believe that Jesus shed his blood to pay for the sins of every human being I do so I would say it is sufficient for all it saying that is it not but not sufficient for all is is saying there is no intrinsic limitation in the value of Christ's death the issue is what was the intention of God and the purpose of God in the sacrifice it's not it's not like it's not like what Christ wins on the cross is some huge lottery amount of money and we're worried about what the excess is going to be that's not the issue the limitation is not in the value of the sacrifice both of us limit the atonement one of us limits it in what the intention extent was gonna be the other limits it in what the effect of it is going to be so that's that's really the issue right III different if I say that we agree on the effect which is it procures the salvation of all who believe James would say all who believe are predestined to believe by God I would say those who we respond to God's gracious invitation but it secures the salvation of all who believe it absolutely accomplishes the Father's purpose which is twofold he would see it as one fold in that respect Kade now you've taken a lot of scriptures on the whole world but there are quite a number of scriptures on predestination how do you answer those I'm pre-empting you but oh well III answer them within the larger context of Scripture now actually if we were just debating that and executing Ephesians 1 in Romans 9 I think James has more scriptural ammunition for that that I have good responses to I see such an abundant witness to Jesus dying for every human being that I see no exegetical way out of that when I look at Romans 9 for example I don't look at that in terms of pre destiny of salvation of individuals but rather corporate election and God's purposes for Israel it's its predestination to service and then predestined Jesus so that we all agree there's predestiny taking place the question is how does it work in what manner I do not see anywhere in scripture where God predestined an individual to hell just slap my hand by the way I'm misrepresenting what you would say but I just see that you know that there are scriptures on both sides and you've given the overview of where you're coming from but you could maybe through scriptures and my major concern was that instead of specifically addressing the nature and extent of the atonement we would end up moving back to the preceding issues which are the sovereignty of God whether he knows all things his divine decree predestination election that the total depravity of man the fact that man cannot do it is pleasing to God the the teaching on election all of that comes before this that's true but there I have to just completely dispute Michaels saying well I've got the clear text he has to bring in theology Hebrews 9:15 is a direct statement of a covenant 'el death that has the specific intention which is that those for whom it is made and the New Covenant is not with people in hell the New Covenant is with the specific people because the New Covenant tax what is that about I will write my law upon their hearts they shall all know me etc etc that's for whom Christ dies and the effect is that they received the eternal inheritance Hebrews chapter seven says he saved them to the uttermost why because he intercedes for them what's the nature of this intercession for someone other than them and if you want the clearest illustration of the fact that this is relevant the subject of who they all is Revelation chapter 5 we're on revelation TV we should quote from the book of Revelation revelation chapter 5 they sang a new song saying worthy are you to take the book and to break its seals for you were slain this is the Lamb you were slain and purchased for God with your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation that's a direct refutation of Michael's position why is it say from if the reality is you purchased for God with your blood men of every you purchased every tribe tongue people in Asia to two points that but the first one is that you know you're a Hebrew scholar you know there's a covenant who's the covenant with is it with the whole world or is it with only those who believe well first the New Testament does not speak of God making a covenant with the whole world the Covenant the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31 verses 31 to 34 quoted in in Hebrews 8 and then referred to again in Hebrews 10 it's with the house of Israel in the house of Judah that opens up all kinds of exegetical questions now we go back to the covenant that God makes with the nation of Israel as a whole Exodus 19 or the covenant that he makes before that with Abraham and his seed in Genesis 17 and they're always conditions for entering into it so it is made with all everyone at Mount Sinai has it made with them but they can drop out through disobedience or with Abraham's descendants if they're not circumcised they'll be cut off so the covenant is made with all and then people can disqualify themselves with that participation Jesus does not use the language of dying on the cross to make a covenant with the world those words are not used and he does purchase the salvation of people from every nation who everyone who believes their salvation is purchased by the blood of Jesus those who reject are lost it's the same offer the same payment has been made but it is effective for those who put their trust in Jesus and on a fundamental level a very fundamental level when it still does not negate any of the all verses you already have Hebrews to that Jesus tasted death for every man doesn't just mean all kinds of people or people from different nationalities again it's a very wide-ranging expression there in Greek and we have explicit leads to tell them that the propitiation not just for our sins but those of the whole world which cannot mean all the elect it means the entire mass of humanity but here's here's what I come back to on a practical level we're both preaching the gospel I know that I can look this person in the eye and I know the depth that God demonstrated his love by Jesus taking that person sins and when I tell them if he'll turn and believe he will be saved James can do it knowing if he's one of the elect it's true otherwise Jesus did not die from on a practical level since James is giving that same universal message repent and believe turn away from sin and receive God's mercy I'm doing it in actuality for everyone because the price has been paid he's doing it knowing if that person is one of the elected applies to them otherwise it doesn't to me our most passionate witness to the love of God and to the purposes of God to the power of the blood of Jesus is declare it to all humanity and then everyone is all the more culpable because they reject it what he did on the cross if in fact they're not elect he didn't do anything for them on the cross and he didn't even demonstrate his love for them on the cross because they're not elect where is the demonstration of love they reject it's not even there well you know I just pitch in does it change anything in terms of your witness because you don't know who the elect are anyway so you're going resent you know we don't in fact in fact it's just the other I would argue that it's the Arminian perspective that has resulted in all the man centered you know 47 repetitions of just as I am to try to get someone emotionally charged to make a decision walk down the aisle but but see that that's not my focus here because I think my fear is we're losing some of the focus because my concern in this issue is what is the result of the death of Christ the extent and the impact of the atonement and what Michael is saying is we've we've heard now that well the intercession is different for some people than other people depending upon whether people believe and the atonement was made for people who did not draw near so you have a you have breaking of the parallels writer of Hebrews himself draws to the high priesthood of Jesus Christ which concerns me I want to know what on a pastor level when I talk to someone in the death room when I I happen to be with with one of the elders in our church just a few hours before he passed away and we were able to say is your faith and trust completely in Jesus Christ and his finished work for you and he said yes it was right there on his deathbed well when I think of Christ interceding for me as he enters is that can his intercession ever fail and if he is interceding for people who are in hell then it failed why did it fail what is the basis of the failure did the father not want to save the spirit not not have the power know the triune God tried but all it was based upon man's response I say no when we look at for example it said wrote in Revelation 5 you purchased for God with your blood men from every michael said yeah if they believe there's nothing about that here the purchasing of the of the of the sacrifice of christ has an effect and when we say it has an effect only if and start adding things to it that's where the that's where the problem comes in because it ends up dividing the work of the high priest and in my apartment except that romans the justification by faith that there is that hasn't be smart this is another place where we disagree i believe that faith i believe that faith is a gift of god the reason he who ends he who endures the end shall be saved i believe that but the only reason i endure to the end is because the nature of the faith that has been given to me is a divine faith faith is a gift repentance is a gift and the work of Christ is what purchased all of that for me and as Paul said I endure all things the sake of the elect at his time God saves his elect people and applies all these things to them their right responses first unintentionally James is undoing some of the some of the arguments for example if a person does not believe the death of Jesus on the cross has no effect so something has to be actuated in their life at a certain point for it to have effect now you say God does the whole process but the fact of the matter is that person sins are not reckoned as forgiven until the moment that they put their faith in Jesus another issue is Hebrews because I want to have some interaction with you on that specific point and if you've raised three more I'm never going to remember what that first point was look at market 10 will do it is forgiveness actuated before there is faith okay right I've got okay so could I just break in there just and to say again to remind our viewers that you're part of this discussion we call ourselves we might call ourselves revelation TV but also the church without walls and that means that we're open for everyone to contribute in the second hour so please make a note of that and I'm now trying to make a note is forgiveness actuated before or after they I've got now bring that up later carry on sorry Maureen even on that score Jesus hanging on the cross saying Father forgive them for they know that what they do does that mean that he happened to know the men involved with crucifying him were elect that's really prayed for or was that a prayer for God's forgiveness to be offered to the entire world Hebrews cannot contradict Leviticus and be the Word of God cannot undo what Leviticus says Leviticus categorically tells us that atonement is made for the entire nation for the sins and uncleanness of the entire nation it's quite categorical but the person who will not humble themselves is cut off and doesn't receive words you have to interpret Hebrews in the light of what's been previously established again the language of the whole world every person not our sins only those are the whole world that that remains untouched unresolved if you go the way that James wants to go here and I will also say this that even in terms of assurance the assurance comes to that person because they are a believer if that person was not a believer they wouldn't have assurance they're not just saying well Jesus died on the cross they're saying Jesus died on the cross and I believe it if you were speaking to that elder he says I don't know if it's true and I don't know if if I truly believed that person does not have assurance furthermore according to what you're saying if you do have assurance of salvation then all the warnings in Scripture have no relevance to you because it's impossible for James white to be lost because James White is sure that he's saved if he's not sure that he's saved then that undermines the rest of the argument so I have an absolute assurance of my salvation I never worry about it and everything twice about it I know that he who started to work will finish it I rest in him every day of my life I rest in the finished work of the cross that's my only boast the day I stand before him that's my only boast I still love the Augustus toplady nothing in my hand I bring simply to that cross I claim that you beyond you know changing you know a book there's a pot if if I if the warnings are there and I started playing games with sin I start thinking well I can do this without consequence then the fear of God comes because the promises are to those who are Jesus sheep and follow him and if I walk out of that in rebellion then I have the possibility of forfeiting what God has done for me humming unborn yes in Hebrews 10 explicitly talks about the the blood of the Covenant that sanctified us that made us holy we could keep reading Hebrews again it refutes this this whole argument that James is making Hebrews 10:29 speaks of the possibility though those who deliberately keep on sinning after every received the knowledge of the truth and it speaks of them having been sanctified by the blood they have been made holy by the blood of the Cross and they can despise the spirit of grace and suffer a more severe judgment than they would have under Moses so yes I can forfeit what God has done so I have I would say a deeper richer is any written yes the door is open so so the process of salvation and being born again can be re-enacted how many times scripture doesn't tell us it does it does make clear that God has promised to keep us and it does make clear that there's severe consequences of rejecting him I don't believe God writes our name in the book of life in pencil and it's erased every three seconds and there can be a weakness with the way certain things are presented but look you have the what can be a pushy altar caller or our minions pushing a certain way and then there is also the Calvinistic extreme of God will save who saves and and and it can come complacency each side can have potential weaknesses and we can learn from each other and and I recognize they've been great Calvinist evangelists nishan Aries and I recognize there been great Armenian evangelist and missionaries who do it all for the glory of God but again the text is explicit in terms of its witness of for whom Jesus died we have to start there because that's explicit every way it could be said and then move out from there again Isaiah 53 is an explicit testimony we didn't understand that he was dying for our sins that's corporate Israel many of the people that we come to that recognition or read those words and Isaiah 53 are people who are lost and yet there's the confession that he did die for our sins and suffer for us and yet anyone who recognizes that is a saved person and of course Isaiah 53 specifically says that by his his work the suffering servant justifies the many not the all and that justification is the result of his work and again if you say well it's partly that but then we have to have faith that's where the real issue comes in here both of us believe that our position is explicit every text that Michaels brought up I've dealt with many many times before you can even hear us debating these things I'm trying to stay specifically on the atonement because look there are all sorts of discussions about predestination election out there there are almost none that go into depth on the issue of what the actual effect these helmet was and so one of the things to two things that Michael brought up that I've got to address first of all if there was not a specific people who reunited to Christ in his death it was just simply a general atonement that makes available a general salvation if and that it's either faith or other groups add things to that then there was how is it that that there was a union between Christ people and Christ in his death it is when Paul says I have been crucified with Christ is that something that happened after the cross or was Paul actually United with Christ in his death and Canty person who will stand upon the parapets of hell in eternity to come screaming out their hatred for God say I frustrated the very work of the Son of God who tried to save me gave his life to save me bore the wrath of God against all my sins to save me but I'm still here why is he still there what's he suffering for that's one of the major questions it's always been asked but then we have the impersonal nature of the salvation that results from this if Christ dies for a group and then we determine who the group is by our actions I say it's a completely different thing than saying that Christ knew me and he died in my place specifically to not just make my salvation possible but to actually bring my salvation apart to pass so in Hebrews chapter 9 well before then Hebrews 10:29 by the way we got into eternal security and perseverance the Saints and all the rest that kind of stuff which I'm knocking which I don't want to give brother that guys don't always say but by the way the much better reading Hebrews 10:29 is by which the APOD by which Christ was sanctified not the person I would think Michael would agree with this because there's it's so deep in the sanctification setting a part of the high priest in the sacrifices it and that is perfectly acceptable translation understanding of the text is that it is Christ who has sanctified not the not the person who is who has lost the unbeliever but but in Hebrews 9 24 for Christ not enter a holy place made with hands a mere copy of the true one but into heaven itself now why is he there why has Christ entered into the very heavenly the holy place in heaven now to appear in the presence of God who pair hey Mon for us who is the US direct Carlisle Romans chapter 8 the elect of God but he appears in the presence of God for every single person for whom he made sacrifice for sin I just run another because that's why I'm here do you know you said you know it's not fair for those who are I want to work on the equity of what's the point of all the other people who aren't part of the elect going through the whole misery of human history so it was no opportunity to leave that the extent of the atonement and then deal with the justice of God in having created in such a way that he knew what the end result was going to be any Christian theist has to answer that question as long as you're not an open theist because if God knew even from the Arminian perspective that there were going to be X number of lost when he created then he either had a purpose for that and is glorified in that or he not so I'll leave Michael dancer from his perspective because he believes God did know that and therefore what his purposes would be from my perspective in Romans chapter 9 were specifically told what if God even though he was patient desired to show his power my answer to your question is this there are three options as far as I can see it either God can save no one God can save everyone or God can save someone in only one of those three options does God have any freedom to demonstrate the full range of his attributes including in the case of some his holiness his justice his power and in the case of others his loving-kindness his grace and His mercy if he saves no one we never see his love and grace and mercy if you say is everyone we never see his wrath and his and his power when he has the freedom to act as the king gets to act and to save rebel sinners who are not deserving of any salvation at all because they love their sin then you get to see the entire range of God's attributes demonstrated his creation and he's glorified in that okay very good yay apologies it's not an Oxford Union debate so you know I benefit somehow it is but you wanted I've lined it very happy to drill down further into the make responded to all these things the New Testament is explicit were justified by faith it does not say we are justified by the death of Jesus only but by faith over and over and over again so that again undermines that the point that you are arguing because it's explicit over and over that the justification comes by faith so there is you and participation otherwise the death on the cross does not actuate it itself also when you say frustrating the grace of God well that's explicit context if I'm trying to be righteous by the law I'm frustrating the grace of God you miss applied it there crucified with Christ he tells us when it happens romans 6 with with baptism there is the identification of us being crucified with him we die with him we rise in new life with him he was not crucified with Christ when Jesus died on the cross he was not crucified with Christ when he was a blasphemer and persecuted in the church there's not a hint of that anywhere in Scripture and and what God decided to do as the sovereign king was to create a world yes he forced all the results I have no problem with with foreknowledge and free will as well existing side by side as we debated previously and I see no scriptural reason to have a conflict there but we see clearly that God set things up so that there would be a people who responded to his call to be his and there are many who would not so Isaiah's quoting Romans all day long I stretched out my hands to a disobedient people Isaiah also said for example isaiah 40:8 god says if only you had obeyed my commandment Matthew 23 is another explicit text where Jesus says how often to Jerusalem I gathered wanted to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks and ruins but you weren't willing even with James exegesis that was the leaders that weren't willing God said he wanted to do something people weren't really that was his choice the way our sovereign King set it up Luke 16 the religious leaders rejected the purposes of God for their generation so in this Romans 11 says we can see the goodness and severity of God goodness towards those who believe and severity towards those who don't and we've got to get to the ends of Romans 9 10 11 because Paul asked a hypothetical in Romans 9 and of course he has the right to do whatever he wants if he wants to create a world - dammit he can do that but his end conclusion is God's concluded all men under unbelief that he may have mercy on them all it's totally personal it's 100% personal it is God's personal love for the entire human race and his perfect salvation for those who put their faith in in Romans 4 says if it's by faith then it's by grace because faith is not a work and there's nothing that we can boast of all we're saying is Jesus's to save you the savior of all men especially of those who believe so I see it is quite consistent and because for the beginning of time he saw me as part of that company it's as personal as it can possibly be but there is a demonstration of God's love that comes when you realize his death on the cross is for everyone that does not come any other way and there is a degree of human culpability and refusing that love that does not come in any other way and again they there are many things God expresses in Scripture says I desired this but because he gives you and being a choice they do contrary to it and he'll say I often would have had this ring give it to you say though that makes him impotent no that makes him a greater God he didn't have to set the whole thing up a certain way to end a certain way he gave us the ability to respond to looking and continually for five hours I'm sure of it I know I get my 10 minutes on it got 10 minutes some left I you know I want you to just try and drill Michael for anything you think this that's where Lord in what he said tonight well no I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm going to be recalcitrant here too I'm gonna be recalcitrant here and say I'm going to try to remain focused upon the specific topic because Michaels comments just now went to election and predestination and unconditional election and total poverty and were it seems that the argument against limited atonement are not based upon the explicit statements of scripture about what the intention of God was but upon a preconceived idea that well we can't believe that because we interpret all these other verses okay let's just be honest we both have our systems but which system is more consistent is the question and for me the ultimate the ultimate proof of the truthfulness of what I'm saying is is that if we apply the same exegesis and the same standards that Michael and I together would use to defend the deity of Christ the doctrine the Trinity resurrection etc etc who's going to have to put up the first flag and say I can't stay consistent here that's your indication and the audience has to examine those things on their own to be able to see well it's the case but for example Michael has said well you're undercutting your own your own position because justifications by faith faith is the work of the Spirit of God within the hearts of his elect people Romans chapter 8 tells us that no one who's coring the flesh can do what is pleasing to God faith and repentance are pleasing to God those requiring the flesh can not do what's pleasing to God you have to made spiritually alive first and so regeneration is what brings out about well who is regenerated the elect of God upon what basis the fact that their salvation has been provided for perfectly in Jesus Christ and so you see every one of these texts I am very concerned that one of the thoughts that people might have is well no one knows what the Bible says the ultimate determiner is who is consistent all the way through from beginning to end and we have debated the first few parts now we're looking however at another issue and I want to I want to bring us back to that what is the nature of Christ's intercession for a person in hell because I have alleged and I have not heard any response to the fact that there is a perfect connection between the audience for whom Christ dies and those for whom he intercedes so I want to know I want to know I've mentioned a couple times how what is the effect of Christ's intercession for a person in Hell there is no effect he's not interesting for someone in hell see I only responded to predestination you started those things I'm simply responding to the points that you made and I brought up justification by faith knowing how you believe as a Calvinist but in point of fact forgiveness is not actuated until someone believes repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins etc etc throughout scripture and until those people repent it even if you say it was all an act of God even if you said from getting Kenan was an act of God until they repented and believed they were not forgiven so that's the simple point it is salvation for those who believe in Jesus praise in John 17 for those that will come to him those that the father will give who does the father give those who believe those who respond to his message I'm consistent from Genesis to Revelation I say without question it's a consistent message of God extending his love to the entire world and giving an opportunity for people to respond he set it up like that in his sovereign will when he's like this that that's backwards according Rome John chapter 6 but I did not get an answer I think you just said he's not interceding for anyone in hell but you also said that he died for everyone who is in hell yes he pays the soul everyone he prays for those who will believe there are only a few references to his intercession John 17 Romans 8 and then the Hebrews passed by referencing but what is explicit is verse after verse after verse about extensively atonement you mentioned John 3:16 where it says they stand condemned already yeah it's the world exactly so he's dying for the world in the world is under judgment of God because we have all rejected him and salvation they feel their status can that be reversed of course well we all agree it's reversed because they think that those who believe you know won't be condemned and don't believe are condemned already right but that answers your point right there they're condemned already and yet if they believe they know everyone was condemned already before the cross sure right or an outside of the cross everyone was condemned already so by faith for no one I don't imagine your question and question directly well I I go further but the order the last thing the order of salvation as many as received him to them he gave power to become the sons of God it is not stated explicitly that you are born again first but you must believe to be born again so James may have a theoretical problem with it I just follow the plain meaning of the text which says that that faith precedes regeneration its explicit in numerous texts so the plain meaning of first John 5:1 says that regeneration precedes faith if you just look at the grammar but it's not a matter of following plain meanings that's allowing all of the word to speak and what we just heard and what I want to keep focusing upon here is what Michael is positing is that Jesus does not fulfill the parameters the high priest because the high priest had if a high priest Cory in the Book of Leviticus had offered the sacrifice and then put the the the bowl down upon the altar and took off his priestly garb and left without going into the holy place to sprinkle the altar would he have finished his work but Leviticus 16 is explicit he made atonement for the entire nation that text works a hundred percent against you and if someone would not humble themselves they would be cut off and would not receive the benefits of the atonement that he made so you're going to have to work out how that works but it's explicit he made atonement for the whole nation the scapegoat bears the sins of the nation all the uncleanness of the nation on the tabernacle there are all cleansed but the person who will not humble themselves does not receive the benefit of it like I can't I can't let go of this because we haven't we haven't heard an answer to it yet and I'm not trying to be a recalcitrant but I have an answer lucky could you point a liberated game as well well because I disagree I think I think you're looking at that and you're asking the question when you look when you're looking when you're looking at the nation's there who is that the believing nation or the unbelieving time nation there whether believing or unbelieving is not taken to consideration like million toph I wish it's I know they're rebellions I'm saying that that's totally against even the prophetic message but here's the point but it's there it's explicit in the tacit if the high priest enters into the holy place for whom is he interceding is not the scope of the offering and the intercession identical in the work of the high priest he was to intercede for the entire nation he also did not have foreknowledge of those who would believe he made atonement for the entire nation and interceded for the entire nation asking God to forgive the forgiveness was offered and then it was rejected by the people you can even argue in the Hebrews passage you keep pressing that Jesus enters into the holiest place of all and offers intercession for the entire world and offers forgiveness of sins for the entire world and those who receive it are those that benefit from it if you want to be consistent with the rest of the testimony of Scripture which I'm pressing you on and honestly even the verses you say their answers for I haven't even heard a hint of anything that would undo all of the passages or Jesus being the savior of the whole world especially for those who believe therefore he is able also to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him since he always lives to make intercession for them so you just said that he's not interceding for people in hell they're really lost why would he being flattening for them I didn't say because he's did Jesus died for them yes he did so again if the audience is the same then the death of Christ for the for those who are in hell was intended by God to never have an intercession or an application i I said those are ready in hell he's not praying for their fates already sealed I did not say he didn't make intercession for others as those who are ready in hell so you have a group of people the highest longer is sure one understands it actually 30 seconds to make you think so you have a group of people for whom Christ did only part of the work of a high priest now he didn't receive for them when he said Father forgive them for they know not what they do that could be interesting actually they're a strong tech but even so he shed his blood for every human being and you could art that so that's what's explicit and that's what's explicit harmony with Leviticus 16 and overwhelming testimony those who are lost reject that expression of grounds were at the time and that's the bad news the good news is we've got another hour after the break for those who are watching live you can phone in on the live number which is o 2 o 8 9 7 2 1 4 0 8 a 1 4 0 0 sorry and and also your texts and emails we brought into the second half of this program yeah I'm thank you very much I you know there's some depth here which we'll be able to unpack but there certainly isn't enough time to go into all of the the depth of this subject but appreciate you bearing with me in all my ignorance and we look forward to seeing you all after the break you

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Length: 55min 0sec (3300 seconds)

Published: Mon Jan 27 2014