Calvinism, Arminianism, Election & Predestination: Romans 8:29-30, 33

today we're going to talk about what election is what predestination is these are two issues that come up and are rather important in Scripture the doctrine of election the doctrine of predestination we're going to answer questions like does predestination mean that I have no real choice if people are predestined does that mean they have no choice here's another question does God really want everyone to be saved does he genuinely want all people to be saved and here's interesting one the doctrine of election right election how unconditional exactly is election now for those who are my Calvinist friends who hopefully will still be friends later the doctrine of election is in Calvinism unconditional election it's one of the it's one of the the letters of tulip but I think it's the you probably I'm just being silly but yes the the unconditional election now I want to give you a confession first I am this topic is massive and when you when you delve into these issues and you start hearing the debates in the discussions it starts to get rather complicated and it branches out really quickly and you started talking about election and pretty soon you're talking about what the difference between libertarians free will and compatible is free will and and all sorts of weird interesting concepts that just get a little bit too much sometimes at least for one message that's for sure so I myself I'm still trying to learn and get these topics but I do have positions on them and I want to share those openly and the goal here my main goal is this I want to affirm what scripture says as true and then say so what does that mean that that's the general approach we're going to have of course everyone's going to say they do that but so that's of course Michael just affirm biblical truth not pick a side and a defend one side and attack the other that's not really the goal so first let's let's look at this what is the difference between predestination and election of course this topic comes up because we're going through Romans verse by verse and the topic of predestination election come up in Romans 8 so we're tackling them separately I think that election is kind of like a piece of predestination that they're related the two are connected but they're not the same thing election has to do with choosing I elect you I elect this person or I like this group of people or I elect this nation so it's about selecting I select the people that's election and predestination has to do with what future those people will have think about that election is about who predestination is about what election is about the person predestination is about the destiny of the person so an election I might choose who goes on the trip with me after after church tonight I will go to the taco truck I'm going to elect you know Randy's coming with me Laurie's coming with Nepali you're not invited so I've elected and then the destination of course is the taco truck that's the predestination of the elect we are going through the taco truck so you see that the elect are those who are who are chosen and then their destination of future glorification in Christ of salvation all that sort of thing so hopefully that makes sense I think that's the simplest way to see the to-to-to as a different thing so we're going to do right now is we're going to go through several verses that talk about election so we can just kind of get a biblical view of what the Bible says about the topic I want to show some variety here because the Bible talks about Christ as being the elect one it talks about corporate election of nations being elect Israel is the chosen nation of God we have the term elect it just means chosen and we have God choosing lots of people for lots of different purposes in scripture and sometimes it seems he's choosing people for salvation so let's let's look at this um there is such thing as an elect people when it comes to those who are knowing of knowing Christ and who are saved March 13 2013 20 Jesus says unless the Lord had shortened those days no flesh would be saved but for the elects sake for the sake of the elect whom he chose he shortened the days so there's this group called the elect that are in this future time Jesus is talking here about I believe a future time that the tribulation time Romans 8:33 this is where we're at in our study of Romans who shall bring a charge against God's elect it is God who justifies who's going to bring an accusation against the one who's the ones whom God has chosen when God justifies them are you going to overrule God's justification of them of course not but they are the elect there is such a thing as those who are chosen by God God is not merely a passive participant in our salvation he also chose this is what the Scriptures teaching Ephesians 1:4 it says just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before him and love chose us in him before the foundation of the world this election is is something that happened before creation it was already known the full plan and the selection the election of who would be saved and this is how I take this passage Matthew 22:14 it says for many are called but few are chosen many are called but few are chosen that's an interesting concept I think this fits very well with my understanding of the theology of where I'm not not a Calvinist although I probably sound like one so far but but I think it fits well with that theology personally and that's that same word it clicked toy in the Greek the chosen chosen ones you know acts 13:48 it says now when the Gentiles heard this they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed they hear the gospel and as many of those who heard the gospel that were appointed to eternal life they believed that's a really interesting verse isn't it they were appointed and then they believed that's I think it's really interesting how some people would say election is only a corporate thing God is this is a typical Arminian view that are many and not from Armenia with this a RM e Armenian armed in e'en as from Jacob Arminius his perspective on things anyway this guy he thought okay no people are elect but there in a corporate sense God chooses simply whoever is going to believe in Jesus that's his choice I choose whichever ones have you believe in Jesus you're the elect you're the chosen now do you believe in Jesus then you're one of the chosen I do think that that's a very interesting way to reconcile these issues but when you get to a 1348 it seems like there's more of an individual aspect here as many as have been appointed to eternal life believed some say it's only corporate this is one verse that makes election look like it it is maybe it's corporate we'll get there in Romans nine about corporate election but this looks like it's individual two and it's hard to imagine in the mind of God who knows all things selecting broad categories of people without any view towards the individual because he knows the individual he knows everything that they're going to do he knows who will select him so what do I conclude I personally think just from these verses there's actually a lot more on election there's many many verses we could quote you've got to believe the doctrine of election some version of the doctrine of election if you're a Christian if you trust the Bible you've got to believe some doctrine regarding election I conclude this that corporately and individually we have God choosing people and this choosing the I chooses nations yeah he chooses groups of people yeah he chooses categories of people but it seems as though this election extends to individuals as well that's what it seems to be saying I mean does this mean automatically that we don't choose well that would be an assumption someone else is making that's not what it says so far we've only said God chooses we're not saying humans don't make a choice and if you assume that it's one or the other well you're going to have to pick God because his choice will trump ours any period of the week but if there's a way to marry the two together that God makes a choice and we make a choice then I don't think we're gonna have a trouble any trouble there and I think how he chooses Israel's an example of this sort of thing he takes Israel he chooses them he simply calls him my people whom I have chosen you know he calls him out of Egypt but then he gives them a law of Moses and he asks them do you accept these laws and Israel chooses God as their God so you could say well did God choose Israel or the Israel who's got well the answer is both the answer is both okay so now let's get right into the nitty-gritty is this election really truly totally unconditional as my Calvinist brothers and sisters would say Calvinism would say that this election is not based on anything in you or anything about you in fact they would when pressed about it probably say that God chooses who will be saved just through the mysterious counsel of his will not based on anything about them at all and they say mysterious counsel like you can't don't even try to figure this out it just chooses it almost sounds arbitrary that that's how it comes across to me like it's for no reason whatsoever except for his ultimate glory but certainly nothing about the person I would say well these elections not entirely unconditional I God didn't choose rocks for salvation right he didn't choose air molecules he didn't choose ideas he chose people so you have to qualify in some sense you've got to be a person a human a fallen human so there's some sense of not totally completely unconditional but I think that there's more to it than this scripture seems to give us two things about election that we have to remember one election is in him in him this verse comes up a lot in fact I already read it to you Ephesians 1:4 said just as he chose us in him that I was chosen but I was chosen in Christ I wasn't chosen simply arbitrarily on my own I was chosen in Jesus so the selection of me the choice of me has to do with me being connected to Christ so let's remember this 2nd Timothy 1:9 says this as well it says that God has saved us and called us with a holy calling not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began so God chose us in Christ and we know it's not according to works so we know this about election God does not choose people based on how good they are how great they'll be how wonderful they are he chooses us in Christ this marries well with the idea that God is choosing those who are going to put their faith in Christ I don't think that's the whole story but I think it does marry well with that idea and in that I don't think we have to go with the Calvinist view so that's one thing election is in Christ it's in him Isaiah in fact isaiah 42:1 long before we get to the new testament and all this specific teachings on election we have this statement behold my servant speaking of Jesus whom I uphold my elect one in whom my soul delights I have put my spirit upon him he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles that Jesus is the elect one Jesus is the and this is where the Arminian position would be and I'm not really exactly Calvinist or infinitives but but we're we're kind of like in the middle where they're both looking at us going you can't be there but the Arminian position is going to say Jesus is the chosen one and God looking through the corridors of time sees you putting your faith in Jesus and in Jesus he chooses you this sort of sees God as responding to our faith but from eternity past that would be that perspective there is some merit to this right there's some good reason to think I mean I'm chosen in him I'm not just chosen period I'm chosen in him so there's some connection to this to this my connection to Jesus connecting me to election but also scripture says that we are elect according to the foreknowledge of God this is in first Peter 1:2 first Peter ones who says elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father now depending on your translation the word elect might be in verse one but if you follow it even in the original language the election is according to the foreknowledge of God the Father and this is for salvation I think right it says in sanctification of the Spirit for obedience and sprinkling the blood of Jesus Christ this is a salvation election I had a Bible college teacher years ago when I was much younger in the Lord and certainly less knowing in his word and he said after reading to us these verses about election being according to the foreknowledge there's another one I'll reach in a minute he says - as an announcer class class election has nothing to do with foreknowledge and I remember sitting in the class it was one of those moments where you're like I think the teachers just completely wrong it says elect according to the foreknowledge of God and I didn't understand Calvinism arminianism or any of these debates back then so now looking back I go okay well he was probably a Calvinist and he wanted to protect us from the Arminian view that God chooses us according to whom he foreknew would be in Christ or something now you see if elections according to God's foreknowledge this is the reason why in Calvinism last week we talked about this why for knowledge they take to mean for loved or basically chosen God picked you well because if I'm chosen according to God's foreknowledge is it what he knew about me well then maybe he factors in my faith in election and so it's not not completely unconditional maybe its conditioned at least in some sense upon me choosing Christ as well so there's a dot you know that marriage of choices also Romans 8:29 related to this it says for whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son that he might be the firstborn among many brethren so there's there's a sense here with predestination is connected to foreknowledge elections connected to foreknowledge that's why a Calvinist has to view for know as something other than knowing ahead of time it's got to be relational it's got to be a selection but we went into that in detail last week and you could check out the video so I think was called what does God know I think it was the title of the video if I remember correctly so here's what we know about election election is not according to works it's not according to your good deeds you're not chosen because of your goodness but it is related to God's foreknowledge and it's related to being in Christ so if you want to say it's completely unconditional then that that seems to be going too far it's not conditioned upon goodness and works but God's foreknowledge and being in Christ these are connected now this is where a Calvinist like I said this branch is out Calvinism will branch out into other areas as well so let me branch out if you're not you're not lost yet I'm at a branch out in Calvinism it's often it's often presented that faith is it is a work this is this comes up in the conversation because you go well God foreknew my faith and so he chose me because he knew I would believe and so they said ah so so God saw that you were better than the other person because you would believe he saw there was some goodness in you that you would you would trust in Christ the problem with this line of reasoning is that the Calvinist is making faith into a work into a goodness work whereas faith is nothing like that so there is one particular proof text that they'll use in his Ephesians 2:8 someone address it real quick Ephesians 2:8 says this for by grace you've been saved through faith and that not of yourselves is the gift of God and they say see faith is a gift of God God didn't just see your faith he decreed that you would believe he gave you your faith it's the gift of God now this is where a little bit of knowledge of the Greek actually helps so how many guys are bilingual you know anything other than English all right so this will be easy for you and for the rest of us not so much the word faith in Ephesians 2:8 is a feminine word the word that is neuter this means that the that not of yourselves is referring to salvation not faith if that not of yourselves referred to faith it would be feminine as well because you can tie words together like that in Greek or Spanish or lots of other languages but not English because we're gender-neutral so if you just do it let me read it to you again for by grace you have been saved through faith and that meaning being saved by grace through faith that whole thing that's not of yourselves it's a gift of God so it's not that faith is the gift but rather salvation is a gift which makes sense I mean that's just consistent with all of what scripture tells us about salvation is a free gift of God through Jesus Christ faith establishes grace it doesn't fight it somehow so if God sees your faith ahead of time and makes decisions based upon that there's not really a biblical problem with that but I will have some other problems with the Arminian view in a second compare with me so I'll start Calvinists then I'll sound Arminian and then I'll be sounding Calvinists later and then maybe somewhere in the middle we'll find the truth and I'll take questions afterwards but what I want to do now is move on to the topic of predestination for a few minutes predestination is about again it's about the future of the elect person the people who are elect there their future is a certain future they're going to be forgiven of their sins are going to become adopted be children of God they're going to be sanctified while they're in this world eventually given eternal life in heaven and likeness of the son all these sorts of things coming in our future glory but let's let's look at that acts 4:27 and 28 says this here's a verse about predestination when Ocala treats you for truly against your holy servant Jesus whom you anointed both Herod and Pontius Pilate with the Gentiles and the people of Israel were gathered together to do whatever your hand and your purpose determined before to be done that's actually the same word predestined that even Herod and Pontius Pilate this is not about the predestination of people but of events that they were going to do what God determined was going to be done now my view I simply assume that the scripture seems to make it clear that people are making free will choices yet God is in control of the moment and God is in control of the eventual destinies and events that are happening in life still allows free will that's that's my position and that seems to be what's being taught here so we have a strong view of God's sovereign see don't wait God's not just watching things happen in reacting to them he's also got this as part of his plan Romans 8:29 and 30 talks about predestination as it relates to us not just events but but our future whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son that he might be the firstborn among many brethren moreover whom he predestined these he also called whom he called these he also justified and whom he justified these he also glorified we're getting a view that this is what's happening in the salvation of individuals is something that is long ago been laid out and planned out Ephesians 1:5 it says having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will we have been predestined to adoption notice the pre des the elections of people predestination is about a destiny or a destination our predestination is to adoption Ephesians 1:11 it says in him also we've obtained an inheritance being predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will God has a the way I understand the scriptures that God has a view of all of all of time and all of reality and everything that's going on and he has a special agenda and plan for the for the saved during this time this is why in Romans 8:28 all things work together for good but only to those who love God and are the called according to his purpose not for everybody but for those who love God and are the called according to his purpose so God has a set future for those who are in Christ this future is still in Jesus it's still seen as in him that connection is there in Ephesians as well but this leads us to some questions doesn't it it's natural to wonder if God selects who's going to be saved does he select the unsaved in the same sense and there are some Calvinists only some who would believe in double predestination or on one side they say predestined predestination the other side reprobation or the decision of God to pass over certain individuals that sort of thing but I think that there's a problem with this if we take a theology that says that God's selecting some means that he doesn't actually want the others to be saved now we're now God's the only willed agent the only agent involved it has a will here I'm just picking some for salvation picking some for not salvation and then they're just sort of playing it out as I watch there's a problem it requires us to read several passages of Scripture in really weird ways we start having to reinterpret lots of verses where it seems like God is appealing very honestly I want you to come to me I'm calling you to come to me if only you would repent if only you would come and that seems to be a genuine call so here's the question does God only want some to be saved what I'm going to do now is I'm going to survey a few scriptures that I would say this seems to refute that idea of Calvinism that God only really really really wants in his secret will what certain people to be saved I think that's not true and I'm going to share these scriptures but I'm going to share with you what I think is the best Calvinist response to what I'm going to say so you could hear both sides hopefully and think it out so 1st Timothy chapter 2 verses 3 through 6 it says for this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth for there's one God and one mediator between God and men the man Christ Jesus who gave himself a ransom for all to be testified in due time off just a casual reading of the passage it seems like God wants everyone to be saved and that the only thing really keeping people from salvation is their own bondage to sin and their own choice to reject the gospel as they hear it now what is the Calvinists response to this the Calvinists response will back up a couple verses and read first Timothy chapter 2 verses 1 & 2 and they'll use this to try to interpret the rest so let me show you here's force Timothy 2 verses 1 & 2 says therefore I exhort first of all that supplications prayers intercessions and giving of thanks be made for all men for who all men but then in verse 2 I'm going to be the Calvinists for a second it names categories of men for kings and all who are in authority that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence and they would say they would say God doesn't want every person safe he wants people from every category saved this is going to be a very common colonists interpretation of lots of passages people from every category so for Kings so guy wants Kings to be safe he wants you know people and authority to be saved but here's my response I think this is an impossible interpretation of first thing that the idol I don't think you can fairly interpret it this way because this would mean that God wants not only some people in authority to be saved but everyone who's in authority to be saved let's read it again and let's say that verses 1 & 2 is what verses 3 & 4 are about right there saying verses 1 and 2 are telling us who verses 3 & 4 are about therefore I exhort first of all that supplications prayers intercessions and giving of thanks be made for all men for kings and all who are in authority the way so I'm supposed to pray for everyone who's an authority or for only at least one representative from each category of authority that doesn't it seems like a very artificial way and so if I then take the all that I read in verses 4 5 6 these passages verse 4 that God desires all men to be saved because he wants everyone in authority to be say that's just the automatic connection and then in Calvinism well then everyone authorities going to be saved because it's ultimately just God's will and man doesn't have really any say-so to speak in it that seems very artificial to me it just doesn't fit the context and as you read on in verse 6 it says who gave himself a ransom for all to be testified three times it's just seems very inclusive God wants everyone to be saved as the implication 2nd Peter 2:1 here's another verse it says but there this is a really interesting person there were also false prophets among the people even if there will be false teachers among you now he's talking about the false teachers who will secretly bring in destructive heresies even denying the Lord who bought them and bring on themselves Swift destruction in the Calvinist theology they'll say that Jesus his actual purchase was only of the chosen ones the elect it was never intended to be for everybody that's typical Calvinist theology that's the end of tulip limited atonement now I would think the Jesus's purchased is for all people all sin of all kinds that doesn't lead the universalism read your Bible I'm sure yeah well that's another conversation some other time and some Calvinists think that leads to universalism I think you're just being silly and you need to stop that's not the case but here's the Calvinists response because we're saying gee just bought false teachers he paid the price or false teachers so what's the communist response to this well they would say it only means bought in the sense that the teachings of Christ delivered them from worldly lives that they were living and then they canned in they went into the church after being delivered from his worldly lies and started teaching false things here's the problem that's not what Bhat means that doesn't mean delivered it means bought like purchased Bhat is used about 30 times in the New Testament this Greek word Bhat do you know how many times it means but as in purchased every single time do you know how many times it means anything like delivered zero I looked up every use it just doesn't mean that that is very forced this is a convenient interpretation that does not fit the language board or the context he bought them as in he paid a price for the purchase of them here are some examples of the same Greek word agarrado and it's used of God making a purchase revelation 5:9 is said and they sang the new song saying you are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals for you were slain and have redeemed or bought agarrado to us or bought us to God by your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation obviously we're talking about salvation a purchase of salvation Revelation 14 for these are the ones who were not defiled with women for they are virgins these are the ones who follow the lamb wherever he goes these were agarrado aimed from among men being first fruits to God and to the lamb first Corinthians 6:20 for you were bought Narada you were bought at a price therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit which are gods so in all of the uses it never means delivered it always just been purchased like I paid a price to get something it's typically used in the Greek when someone goes to the marketplace to buy something that's what it's typically used just means baht so second Peter 2:1 seems to be a very serious passage that if I was a Calvinist I would feel I've got to come up with a legitimate interpretation not a not a redefining of a word in order to deal with this passage doesn't mean that they were saved it means that the death of Christ actually paid for them first John chapter 2 verse 2 let's look at another one speaking of Jesus did he did he really mean to die for everybody it says in 1st on to 2 and he himself is the propitiation for our sins and not only for hours and or not for ours only but also for the whole world not only ours but the whole world I mean the the plain faced interpretation of this passage would be Jesus died for everyone everybody everybody the whole world now the Calvinist view you might be able to guess because it's similar to what we heard earlier it's that Jesus didn't die for the whole world inclusively but died for the whole world as in four people from every sort of community in the world for certain individuals in all the different communities of the world my response that seems completely forced on the passage it just seems fabricated in order to sustain a theology that this verse doesn't seem to support similar interpretations are offered a lot like that in Calvinism so you take any any phrase that says something something God loves all or everyone or the whole world and it always just means you know people from around the world not the whole world not everybody first John 4:14 they'll interpret this the same way and we have seen and testified that the father has sent the son as savior of the world and they go well the world just means certain people in the world and that doesn't seem to be the plain interpretation of the text it seems forced John 3:16 for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life and I think that the Calvinist has to start to get very creative with this passage they have to say for God so loved the world meaning certain people spread out through the world God loves them He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in him and by believes we mean whoever god regenerates and then they automatically believe in him they're not like choosing to trust in him exactly they're you know they can't trust in him and then God makes them born again and then they can't help but trust in him so but in the mind of the Calvinist this gives God the glory but let's pause for a minute on the talk of God's glory and let's just say this but is it what the scripture teaches and it's not it's not I think it gives God glory - just let the scripture just ephoto teaches here's another verse 2nd Peter 3:9 2nd Peter 3:9 says the Lord is not slack concerning his promise as some count slackness but is long-suffering toward us not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance the Calvinist has to say when the text here says God's not willing that any should perish what it really means is he's not willing to any of the elect should perish so now there are there is a saying that I want us to learn right you may have heard this before is all means all that's all all means that's not actually true okay sometimes all means all of these people or all of those people or things like that but these passages seem to mean all as in all people all humans everybody that's what they seem to me in in context and all that on so the Calvinist says it's just any of the elect in 2nd Peter 3:9 doesn't seem to be supported by the text you have to you have to come in with that idea and read it into the text that's the wrong kind of Bible study method in my opinion let's deal with another issue do humans really have a choice to accept or reject the gospel or the Calvinist view of total depravity in the sense that here's the view you are so hateful against God you are so lost you are so dead in your sin you're like Lazarus and Jesus he calls out to lazarus Lazarus come out of the grave and Lazarus do you think Lazarus could have said no no of course not dude you're going to do what he just told you to do like you're going to come out of the grip the thing is that Lazarus is an analogy it's not actually a teaching like this is an analogy there you don't make arguments from analogies right you come up with a teaching and then you have an analogy to illustrate it but you don't are you from analogies that's like welcome to every cult in the world are used from analogies talk to a jehovah's witness about why they don't believe the trinity they'll argue from an analogy well I'm not my son and the father and you're like dude you're not that's not even the doctrine of the Trinity you're arguing about and so we shouldn't argue from that that's that's not smart so the belief is that you are so depraved you are so lost you were so hateful against God that what God does is he actually regenerates you first you actually get born again and then you believe or perhaps as a result of being born again like the moment of your being born again now you're believing in Jesus because now that you are saved you are you can't help but believe this is irresistible grace so total depravity irresistible grace we talked about limited atonement unconditional election I don't agree with any of the doctrines completely there's pieces of them I like breakfast but I wouldn't say I'm at any point Calvinist because when I get to the real nitty-gritty of the points I go they all really have the same point the man has no free will in his salvation and I don't think that that support is supported by Scripture though there are my brothers and sisters this is a place we can disagree and still fellowship and all that so does man really have a choice to accept or reject the gospel or is it was Calvinism true where it's just like you just you reject it until God regenerates you and then you accept it in a story or is it that faith comes and as a result of our faith he saved us and regenerates well Ezekiel 33 11 is he kiyul 33 11 so this say to them as I live says the Lord God I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked but that the wicked turn from his way and live turn turn from your evil ways for why should you die o house of Israel if you just read this casually if you just simplistically it sounds like God is calling out to people he's appealing to them to make a choice to turn from their wicked ways and then he wants to bless them and they will live he won't take pleasure in their death oh but he will kill them this is judgment will come but he doesn't want it to be that way and he lays it down into their decision making now make your choice like behold I said before you this day life and death choose whom you will serve there seems to be choices this just throughout the scripture he places Adam and Eve in the garden he tells them what he wants and he lets them make a choice he already knows the choice he's already made a huge plan factoring in all of our choices but these are real choices Luke 7 30 it says but the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves having not been baptized by him let me read that again the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves having not been baptized by him they didn't repent when they heard the preaching of John and they rejected God's will does God allow us to at least on some level reject his will for us yes he allows us to do to make these choices now he knew it would happen he planned it all in he's got his sovereignty in there he's got his predestination in there fully intact but he also has our will intact as well God really allows man to have free choices that God does not want us to make but God doesn't give up his sovereignty in this his sovereignty is still secured I have a huge high high view of God sovereignties plan for all those things any will be glorified no matter what from the moment he created the world and all the factors he put into it and all that and his inner workings of a man and in life and all that he's totally sovereign so here's my solution I believe both the Gotti Lex and predestined and that man has free will to choose or reject Christ and I believe it's what the Bible teaches and I think that I've hopefully made at least something of a case for you guys to think about in that regard I really think it's what the Bible teaches now you might go Mike how do i reconcile god having full sovereignty and yet man having free will God electing people for salvation yet people choosing freely to receive Christ my thought is this first two thoughts first letter this you don't have to reconcile this you have no need to reconcile these two things personally I never felt a tension there I just figure that's what it teaches I believe it you don't you could just literally affirm and go to sleep or your sovereign your control of everything I can trust your big plan but yet you want me to make choices to follow Jesus and to be his and to preach the gospel to people like they have a real choice to make about Jesus and then go to bed that's fine you can just affirm it and go to sleep this is a comforting and humbling thought that in theology I don't have to understand everything and explain every question I can simply take truths from the scripture say that's true and that's my theology there's nothing wrong with that now I do think we have some options as far as how to try to reconcile these issues personally I've never honestly seen a huge controversy here about sovereignty and freewill I've known people who really struggled over it and I was like I don't know what your struggle is man like I just honestly don't see the problem so that's where I'm coming from so forgive me if I treat it lightly but it's only because I've just never seen the problem there my first thought is this let's not say that either God chooses or I choose I think that's an artificial thing you know like I chose my wife she chose me we chose each other and if someone goes well which one of you really chose us like we both chose each I don't see a problem between two freewill agents choosing the same thing I don't see I don't see problem with that so I think it's artificial and we try to force an issue there that doesn't exist but I do think we have options I think we have options and one of those options is what we talked about last week this is just a possible option you don't even have to describe to this you don't have to believe this into think this you can just go to sleep but we we learned in God's foreknowledge last week that God knows the what if knowledge he knows that if he had made it so that every man on earth was one inch taller how that would change the world and how that would change everything about the world really was little things which would just be different here and there he knows that if if you know Thomas Edison had never been born and his inventions and I mean where would be without peanut butter I don't know didn't he do peanut butter mother was Jefferson Carter Carter that was Carver I'm editing this out of the video I don't want to think of a better illustration instead what if the Wright brothers had never existed would this have changed you know when we started having commercial airlines because it's set back our time perhaps anyway that's a better illustration I'll use that one-handed so you've got you've got God who who not only knows all the factors but he chose to create this group of people imagine if God had created a world where it's the same world but every human then it is a different person but you didn't exist a different person existed you see God created all of these things allows us to have free will but in his in his knowledge of what would happen if this he created this world ensemble this particular version of reality that is the only real one and and I think that in that God can factor in the things that would allow him to be electing selecting pre destiny and still allowing free will at the same time I think it's a great way to harmonize these ideas in a philosophical sense and that would mean if God does it this way if the Lord does it this way and he selects making the universe just the way he did that he has a sincere call for salvation to everybody but he knows who will choose him and he knows the world he created the way he didn't all that he's electability is predestined but it means that God's election is one way I made this world with a view towards those who would be saved a call sincerely knowing who would receive me choosing those lines as well as creating those ones in the first place putting his sovereignty way up there and then enduring those who would not be saved not selecting them for reprobation or for damnation but simply enduring them and that's exactly what the scripture seems to teach there's these words of predestination of calling an election only for the saved but when we get to Roman's 9 we talk about the unsafe they're all these passive verbs of God enduring them and patiently waiting and dealing with them and then finally they're judged but the sincere call for salvation seems to be there I think that free will and sovereignty can be married together that way um in that sense I would say God does not predetermine all of our responses but he does predetermine all of his works and he works everything together according to his plan including knowing all that we're going to do how could he not be totally sovereign and all these things so I'm going to affirm predestination I want to affirm election I want to affirm God's absolute sovereignty and his choice of individuals and groups actually and I want to offer a man's ability to say yes or no and that seems like the plain reading of the text like if I just dropped the Bible in the middle of some foreign country where they spoke whatever language it was I had the Bible translated and then they just picked it up and built theology I doubt they would come up with the competence and I think that they would come up with a view towards man's free will and God's sovereignty together father God let us let us be able to affirm the scriptures let us not divide over issues but at the same time let's not miss the point of your sovereignty you are in control of all things though you allow free will yet the free will of man will not support your ultimate decisions and your plan your predestination and we rejoice in this because that means we have a salvation that is secure and then we can rest in you we can trust in you and we can say god is good god is in control no matter what in Jesus name well if I can share just a final word on this stuff I'm not going to be I'm dealing with Calvinism because these issues come up in the text as we're going through Romans but I don't feel like it's my mission to talk about Calvinism but much rather talk about other things in all honesty only because I find them to be more valuable more worth arguing about we should be able to fellowship with Calvinists we should be able to fellowship with non Calvinists or omitting this if you're a Calvinist and you can't fellowship in sweet love with non Calvinists there's something wrong with you if you're if you're in arm in eNOS or a cowboy chaplain or whatever we are and you cannot fellowship in sweet love with a Calvinist so I think it's wrong with you these are not dividing issues they're great issues to discuss I like to kind of I like to hear the best Calvinist arguments in the best or meanest arguments and everybody everything in between I love to hear these things and think about them we're really struggling to understand big issues and there are other verses that are worth bringing up to deal with Calvinism but this has not been it's been focused on let's examine all of Calvinism but I wanted to take election and predestination talk about it so that we could get these things down and then move forward going through Romans so we'll keep doing that when we hit Romans 9 we'll just we'll just go verse by verse and teach what it teaches and and if we're all Calvinists at the interval ms9 then pretty much yeah a lot and we'll have sweet fellowship [Music] your name we love you [Applause] great we will refine our God aunty

Channel: Mike Winger

Views: 232,539

Rating: 4.7778287 out of 5

Keywords: Calvinism, Arminianism, predestination, election, free will, sovereignty, is election unconditional, Mike Winger, BibleThinker, Bible Thinker, calvinism refuted, is calvinism true?, TULIP, doctrine of predestination, doctrine of election, is election corporate or individual, Romans 8, non-calvinist, why I am not a calvinist, theology

Id: UO92L11L9jc

Length: 45min 29sec (2729 seconds)

Published: Mon Aug 14 2017