Plato's Symposium (60)

good evening good evening good evening tonight Plato's symposium now you're all familiar with Plato's symposium therefore I would like to take it in a different way I would like to proceed through the steps what kinds of steps there are that leads to a vision the vision of the nature of reality from it comes an interesting challenge and a new beginning and therefore I'm going to work backwards and work backwards curious very curious what we're going to be doing tonight and with a piece of chalk and the blackboard we can do any of what light therefore to start with the challenge and the new beginning now we'll go over this later but essentially he has Plato has two descriptions of the steps a brief form and a more extended exploration of the steps or the stages in any case it culminates in a vision which is available only to the mind of the mind only and that vision therefore is of the nature of ultimate reality now how is it how is it experienced and what name you give it or two different things what one encounters is what is called the perfection of beauty that's it sometimes called duty itself a wonderous beauty that by an interesting kind of reflection and perception they coincide the only thing proper to call it is the nature of reality now I'd like to get into the challenge and the new beginning now Socrates is relating this great speech on the nature of beauty in a speech which is the way he structures it as a recollection from his teacher deity men Saudia tema of Mantinea is his teacher and he's recollecting this entire speech he's giving before his friends and it is her that is her communication to him that forms the substance of this entire speech but in it is a very very curious statement which I'm going to share with you just as these steps can be looked at either in full and brief form so she also gives an account of this very stages in terms of what it's like to relate between student and teacher she is the teacher he the student Socrates is reluctant rear recollecting the entire speech presumably back from his early days it's the way she describes their relationship that is most interesting that I would like to get into because behind it then comes a new beginning the stages themselves are cut you can cut it right in half the first part is the physical the second part deals with reflections on the nature of society and therefore it becomes more and more into the realm of the mind so it's physical versus entering into understanding different kinds of beauty now the brief brief description of this is very simple she then gives the discussion of this entire visions going step by step up these steps and she describes that and then she compacts it into a very brief statement of maybe four or five steps and that's all I'd like to start with that first is first alright what must happen you must love one body physical then second step to Omar then it moves into the mind now you must now seek to destroy understand the beauty in pursuits and customs of our people and then it leaves the physical realm now I would like to leave this exploration just with a literal statement of what's going on in his account of the student-teacher relationship because it doesn't pick up here into the realm of the mind it picks up right from here therefore I thought I'd read it to you and therefore we can see the psychological aspect of it as well as the physical side to it as it proceeds through these stages now for those who are interested in following this up this is called 209 B the stephanas numbering system now when a person is seeking beauty itself I have to add an important detail and that is they are said to be pregnant in their soul and there of course is a beautiful picture of a pregnant soul right for those of you who aren't familiar with pregnant Souls those who won those who are involved in this kind of pursuit right it is assumed that they already are pregnant in their soul and their seeking somewhere and somehow to beget it there is something in the soul that must be born that must be begotten and therefore later must be raised as well as nurtured and raised that's what's curious about this work so then let me read for it all right louder please all men seek beauty print then those that have a divinity in them and are pregnant from their youth that's a different class right that's a different class I can go into the differences later if you'd like but that's a different class watch the way he starts as he picks up this theme of divinity in one and you can follow it with me so again a man with divinity in him whose soul from his youth is pregnant with these things desires when he grows up to beget and procreate thereupon I think he seeks and goes about to find the beautiful thing in which he can beget for in the ugly he never will being pregnant then he welcomes bodies which are beautiful rather than ugly and if he finds a soul beautiful generous well-bred he gladly the welcomes the to body and soul together both alright body and soul together and for a human being like that he has plenty of torques about virtue or excellence and with the good man ought to be and to practice and he tries to educate him for by attaching himself to a person a beauty I think and keeping company with him he begets impro creates what has been long been pregnant with present and absent he remembers them and with him fosters what is begotten so that is a result these people maintain a much closer communion together in a firm or friendship than parents of children because they've shared between them children more beautiful more immortal and everyone would be content to have such children born to him rather than human children he would look to homer and hesiod and the other good poets and wish to rival them liquor from this relationship from this relationship there's a cultivation going on and what the person was pregnant with can finally emerge that child as it were metaphorically speaking can be said then to rival both homer and hesiod the religious or the spiritual writings of the Greeks of that age this child of this relationship is going to rival compete against rival against the religious teachings of the age for spiritual teachings or religious teachings in this case homer and hesiod let me go back over the Socrates is recounting a dialogue that he had over a certain length of time with the deity ma his teacher he's recalling it step by step he's recalling the fact that dia team has said that there is going to be this kind of relationship that's possible and if it is and if it does culminate in a in a birth a child it's going to be a kind of philosophical child and it will rival homer and hesiod let's change it let's change it to contemporary things the Bible and the Quran that would be contemporary what would that then be saying that deity may through Socrates believes that the kind of relationship that they are going to have since it's in the early days that kind of relationship if it brings it's if it brings to fruition what has been developing what emerges from that is going to be an interesting thing not a human child but a child which then can compete with the Bible in the Quran or homer and hesiod there are not many people today who are invested and going around the streets knocking on your door to be saved by reading Hesed and they aren't too many who do that with Homer but this was written at the time when the great tradition was going on where this was a vital vibrant religious inspired movement and the Hellenic age and at the time it was going on Plato or Socrates it's looking at it and saying what we are doing here will produce something that will rival these that is to say dear Tina and Socrates may if everything works out according to the plan the pursuit she may able to help him bring him to the point where he can then be open enough to have this experience into the nature of reality which is the perfection of beauty or beauty itself and that will provide a way of understanding human nature and our culture in such a way that you can use it as steps to a vision before he finished the terms of the speech before he had the culminating vision she's telling him what may yet occur therefore this is prophetic because today the symposium still is functioning and for some Clayton Utz that is still seen this way now that's the challenge and that's a new beginning Plato is setting out a new beginning this is a new kind of philosophy and it still as new as it was then and therefore these steps are there for those who want to run up it and take a look and have this confirming vision so they can then confirm every aspect of it now as I say let's go back through it now I'm starting from the challenge and the Nuba gang that's where it's going the brief form as we've said before loving one body loving a couple of bodies finding the beauty in these this is a physical the only thing similar to this that we know of is in the Tantra game what physical beauty is part of the entire spiritual tradition he's saying you must discover Beauty most intimately again and again and bring that up no rejection no repression you're not going to exclude it you're not going to condemn it you're going to though continue to go up through the entire pursuit wherever you find beauty now to reach this stage a new kind of activity emerges and that is the need for contemplation that's the dividing line he has to learn contemplation on two levels now when one then moves from the physical into the realm of the mind the role of contemplation is stretched twice why is it so stressed because this is something only seen with and by the mind and therefore the mind has to be prepared and cultivated for the vision that's what this is the mind is cultivated through Beauty through Beauty the experience of Beauty on the physical all the way up and the entire the entire pursuit has one goal does the entire thing must be done only for the sake of which only for beauty that for the sake of which this entire journey is taken for vision when it is achieved that's when Socrates and the speech says that's when we'll find life worth living for a man while he contemplates beauty itself in that contemplation mind intellect that alone can sit in that vision of beauty which we can describe in a few minutes you can see why he calls it reality perhaps one of the biggest problems in today's world and philosophy and metaphysics is this word being a very curious word it takes various forms but what he touches is the nature of reality that's being being has been experienced as pure beauty the perfection of beauty that's different than modern European thought and how they use this word being this is platonic it's not German it's not European because once you reach that stage something emerges that is extremely important for the Philosopher's for no one else to see out of this experience it is not it may be a cultivating vision a culminating vision a cultivated culminating vision but there's something behind it beyond it because from that he gives birth to another birth there are four kinds of birth in this speech he gives birth to real excellence sometimes called virtue he gives birth to real excellence and it must then be brought up it must be nurtured and developed so that received if it were an ultimate experience or the final state for man then you don't have to do anything more with it it should be the end this is not you have to do something with it something that emerges from this experience of the nature of ultimate reality is beauty some emerges from it that's real excellence and what do you have to do with it you have to bring it up and Plato in the Republic which I think we'll go to tonight talks about the same thing another language very similar and we can then use it to highlight this so that we can see it better now what do you get when you do this well the end of it then is that the person the individual becomes a friend of God and immortal if any man ever is is the way that's quoted so there's a vision it's done only by the mind it must be cultivated there must be a practice to cultivate it prepare it for the culminating vision culminating vision is an it is of the nature of beauty itself and through that one recognizes that's the nature of reality out of it emerges something remember we said before our child this is another kind of child you see there's a real excellence that emerges from it and it must be brought up just like a child must be brought up same language now let's see if we can now take a look at those four kinds of begetting and coming to birth that is mentioned in this speech of Socrates I have to keep in mind therefore we jump to the last one a moment ago and that's a fun one of course but I'd like to review these four they're intimately connected with the stages so therefore I'm now going to read the stages in the extent in the extended form rather than in this brief form and highlight when he uses this wonderful term beginning a different kind for kinds of beginning all right starts on a physical plane these are some of the mysteries of love Socrates in which perhaps even you may become an initiative as far as the higher revelations which initiation leads to if one approaches in the right way I do not know if you could ever become an adept at least I will instruct you and no pains will be lacking you try to follow if you can it is necessary that one who approaches in the right way should begin his business young and approach beautiful bodies first if his leader leads a right he should love one body and there beget beautiful speech first beginning then he should take notice that the beauty in one body is akin to the beauty in another body miss draws something from your experiences and if we must pursue beauty in essence it is great folly not to believe that the beauty in all such bodies is one in the same when he's learnt this he must become the lover of all beautiful bodies and relax the intense passion for one thinking lightly up and leading it to be a small thing next he must believe beauty and souls to be more precious than beauty in the body so that if anyone does decent insult even if it has little blue little gloom it should be enough for him to love and care for and to beget and to seek such talks as will make young people better second kind of beginning that he may moreover be compelled to contemplate the beauty in our pursuits and customs right so that's the second kind right that's the second kind and as a consequence then he must be compelled right compelled to contemplate our pursuits and customs he's now directing his attention and society at what's going on around him and he's then required to discover the beauty that's manifest in customs and in pursuits and see the beauty there find it in another thing then next and to see that beauty is one and of the same Ken so that he may believe that bodily beauty is a small thing next he must be led from practice to knowledge that he may see again the beauty and different kinds of knowledge again what is it he has to see the beauty and different kinds of knowledge we don't want our student merely to learn things they have to demonstrate they can see the beauty in whatever it is they think they know right a much more interesting test right what have you studied can you tell me the beauty you've discovered in mathematics and history and language that's what's required you have to discover the beauty and whatever it is you're using your mind for and out let me go back over that next he must be led from practice to knowledge that he makes see again the beauty and different kinds of knowledge and directing his gaze from now on towards beauty as a whole he may no longer dwell upon one like a serpent content with the beauty of one boy or one human being or one pursuit and so be slavish and petty but he should turn to the great ocean of beauty and in contemplation of it give birth to many beautiful and magnificent speeches and thoughts and the abundance of philosophy there we have the third very interesting kind third kind of beginning out of all of this experience the beauty on all of these levels especially the pursuits customs of his people and the different kinds of learnings the different kinds of knowledge and beauty and all of them he now must create beautiful and magnificent speeches and thoughts in the abundance of philosophy for what purpose Hey he gained strength and he grows he gained strength and he grows because to have this vision has quite an impact on the human psyche whether the entire being of man you must be prepared for it you must have this strength you must have grown in order to endure it because this is a vision a beauty itself powerful powerful as it is probably the most powerful thing there is and therefore to withstand it and to participate in it and get into it this is the requirement because giving beautiful speeches magnificent speeches and thoughts and the abundance of philosophy to Socrates this is how you gain strength for the vision therefore this is a growing of growth for what purpose that he may catch sight of someone knowledge that when knowledge which we are now going to describe that's the third kind of beginning one to notice Howard amel use beautiful speech such talks as will make young people better certain kind of talking can only do that and now for himself gain strength and grows fourth kind we touched on that before we're out of the vision of beauty itself one brings to birth real excellence and brings that up dirt Jersey well what is this step after seeking beauty and different kinds of knowledge right that's this one he has to turn to that great ocean of beauty and contemplate it because he's been seeing Beauty everywhere so now we can then pull it together under one metaphor ocean of beauty let me read it back up a little bit first but he should turn to that great ocean of beauty and in contemplation of it give birth to many beautiful and magnificent speeches and thoughts and the abundance of philosophy until being strengthened and grown therein he may catch sight of someone knowledge he may catch sight of someone knowledge the one knowledge or science of this beauty now to be described this vision is a vision that he calls that's this the one knowledge that's being and now he has to describe it in the description we will get all of the terms which one we pulled together is the same description as being or on to us and let's do that now whoever shall be guided so far towards the mystery of love by contemplating beautiful things rightly in due order is approaching the last grade suddenly he will behold the beauty marvelous in its nature that very beauty Socrates for the sake of which all the earlier hardships have been born in the first place everlasting watch these turns right everlasting neither being born nor perishing neither increasing or diminishing constant no variations no increase no decrease anywhere in this vision not beautiful here and ugly there permeates all with a constant quality not beautiful now and ugly then permeates all therefore at Emory aids all space and time not beautiful in one direction and ugly in other direction not beautiful in one place and ugly and in other place and then negatives this is not this is not physical it's not an idea it's not inherent in anything it is solely beauty by itself in itself for itself all beautiful things elsewhere partake of this beauty in such a manner that when they are born in parish it becomes neither less nor more and nothing at all happens to it now when you take these terms together that's immortal constant no variations no place where it's not right beyond space and time in that sense there are no boundaries in either so let me quickly jump to Republic for a moment give you another case of the same thing the real lover of knowledge what's this called this is called knowledge this is the object of knowledge for Plato it's nothing else the subjective norm then will it not be our reasonable defense that the real lover of knowledge by his nature strives towards real being and it's not intent to abide by this multitude of things which exist only an opinion for words he goes always and he is never blunted never ceases from that love until he grasps the nature of that which really is by that part of the soul which it belongs to grass such a thing for mind alone can the only thing that can see this then going in then going in unto this and mingling and mingling with the real right going in this right mingling in that with the real he then be gets News intellect and truth and in Plato your each truth necessary it is necessary that you must have simultaneously have reached reality or being he then he would know and truly live and be nourished all of the same language we've been using up to this point and so he would cease from his travail but never before same thing Republic symposium so therefore he's going to turn to that great ocean of beauty and in contemplation of it suddenly that's always the major term used to describe this you can't anticipate when it comes it comes of its own its own times wham-o the person has the experience this is the language to describe it these are the consequences that follow for it this is how he judges it the birth of that therefore would awaken and beget intellect through the vision of reality an overwhelming experience of beauty itself out of that what must be developed a different kind of thing a curious kind of thing excellence and it has to be brought up well then if it is what happens well then he would look to homer and hesiod and the other good poets and which to rival them that is certainly a nice person to have right and if you have nothing to do this weekend I would suggest you do your utmost to try together now going back these are the steps the vision that's the challenge it's a new beginning and it presupposes the arts of contemplation means therefore that you can include everything you don't have to repress anything right it's necessary to gather it up and bring it up into a vast pursuit spiritual pursuit there is no split in man and as he culminates it in this vision he then awakens something magnificent called it the intellect itself that must be brought up nurtured and the result is that as Socrates says such a person becomes a friend of God and immortal if any man ever is I just wanted to run through that quickly for you so we could now throw it open and explore it yes is there fun I mean one knowledge seems to be identical with knowledge of the one no yes or no but when you describe it now he'll be the one knowledge right which when we look at it from here is knowledge of the one yep does he buy true what in the world of Plato you have this kind of structure the one that you have intellect pure intellect - right because as you saw with the arrival of intellect you also necessarily must have seen the nature of reality being in awakening the intellect you recognize the nature of reality as being and you're overwhelmed with the fact that we did dealing with us something that has a vast and profound vitality these are the three major terms that are used to describe the level of Neuse this is the one than here we call this soul soul entering soul and body here body without soul those are the five different levels now if the nature of the one is described in the Parmenides as well as in the Republic it is that which is beyond all predicate transcends all predicates here you can't have this vision without knowing you've encountered the nature of beauty would you agree with that I mean there's something marvelous about beauty okay it has one heck of an impact and we know what when we experience it right someone doesn't walk around saying I wonder whether I experienced beauty or not it's an act if you wonder you're in the indicate you're asleep right so these these are things you can discover in the experience of beauty because in the experience of duty you recognize that at simultaneously with the realization of duty that you used the mind and the mind alone can see it so these are connected when you recognize that the beauty that you encountered is the nature of reality then you're seeing into that experience of beauty all the qualities we just put over there did we not ever last thing that it doesn't either that right while the negative well but we do not agree one predicate we can't get away from duty ii everlasting three permeates all those are pretty normal person and he doesn't say everlasting he just says what it's not okay look at that make ship I can help you with this all right okay we try to have a little fun okay here we go two words right distinctions we can make distinctions without without making divisions or finding parts would you agree with that like here's the top here's the bottom why hold it this way of course it'll hold it that way then this becomes tactical ISM I can make distinctions without breaking it into parts right but if I can make distinctions then I am dealing with something that you can distinguish right you can't distinguish it now try this for a moment and in an abbreviated form if we want to talk about the one in itself all right the one then clearly we do not want to talk about the many do we so if we are talking about the one and if our dialogue necessarily involves us in making distinctions that are appropriate from the many will no we're not in the one but we're in the many and we barely better get out of the many and get back in the one know if that's the case do you think it's likely then that the one can be a whole lot women holmen's necessarily have parts the parts would be making distinctions that would be a many would it not therefore we can't call the one a whole generally right by the way we can't say it's a part can we because that presupposes a hold of which is parts it would still be a money yeah yeah so it's nearly a whole nor apart yeah by the way do you think you can have a beginning middle or end no because they would be the distinctions if it doesn't have the beginning middle or end would you not agree one thing we're not going to be able to do and that is described it as a circle or as a straight line for those things happening beginning middles and ends necessarily agree we do not agree then in general if it has any form whatsoever any form is merely a consequence of applying different straight lines and circles to whatever it is therefore it must be without form the formulas agree right yeah well if it's formless having known beginning middle around then I wonder whether we can relate it in any way to anything looker is it possible that we might be able to talk about it as the same as anything else because if we did there'd be something else that we'd compare it and we're in a many nests and we're not in a one all right can we talk about it as being other than everything else no because our the presupposes other things you can talk about it being other than that either right well if it's not the same as the self brother could it be other than another it couldn't be other than another because that would be other than another thing you're making contrasts with it and finding differences in it that are distinctions and we said we wouldn't allow that so that we can't do that either hmm hmm well then let's say it can't be the same can't be other can't be other than another or another can't be another either coming no well then look is it possible that we may be able to talk about it as being in in space because of its in space that requires two things right right but we could say could or could we say it's in time ah well therefore it's not in space it's not in time all right I'm space no time what could it be mode could be moved certainly if it can move from one place to the other that'd have to be different places you can move and that would be a many nough so it can't be moved you can't be in motion champion space camp in time hmm but um wait a minute could it be just just where it is and rotating I'm pon a point and therefore it be in one place but yet in motion no because then that have to be different places around which it turns and then it would be many distinctions right do you think it could be in itself think of the one could be in itself if a brand itself that'd be part of it that would be in another part would be outside of it in certain parts would be have to be different from itself in order for it to be in itself so it can't be in itself either kind of well I hope so I was just going to kind of run through a bunch of stuff so that we can guys now tell me what it could be without making distinctions what me it can eat I think you might be right but wait a minute are not many things don't they have being without being the one yeah oh well then that's a property that other things have as well as the one yeah well then it's a distinction of the one it isn't the one okay if being and the one were the same thing then when anything to be is to have existence is it not well to have existence you can use it in two ways can you not something then that comes into being and passes out of being that's one form of existence or be in the sense of being it always is there yeah just is right right would you agree some things can be said to be or it to be is without being the one no one of the born is the only thing can be said to be okay that's the only time we can use with the one so far is that correct right so do you mean this is a pure being if it's absolute and pure being then there must be something about it that's pure distinction does the one have being but the one is being oh the one is is right then we're now saying are we now these are equivalent is that we're we're and furthermore there's only one thing is ness or Dean and it's the only thing that has it right that's the only thing that has it you said four up other things habit then it's a quality of other things as well as itself if if other things have the quality of red as well as by having something red then there's something I have that is red that is not exclusive to me since other things can have red therefore it must be a quality of other things that I also can have and therefore it's a quality do you reason that way and I would have the quality of being that other than one and that would be making a distinction and we don't want to do that because we want just a pure one we don't want to end up with the many we're kind of bumping into it yes are we going to point about the only thing thing the one is the one a worse that that it can be called 1ok what happens if we say the one is the one then let's go from the one is the one well see if there is if there is this right and we can call it one then we're making a distinction about it and therefore we shouldn't even call it one or we're adding to it a name and therefore there's two things the thing and the thing we call it therefore there's a difference between the one and the thing you're calling a distinction can't have that then you point to it yes didn't have the finger pointing to the moon yeah that's what we're doing that's what we're doing because I mean well tilray says the dow or the one which can be named is none no that's right yes we're doing that with those four the dialectic yes this is the dow that cannot be named no no yeah no going back though would you not agree from what we've said though that intellect being and vitality and beauty can be said about this experience I am among those who applauded right so therefore you can have the one and you can have one knowledge you can also have one soul Sol right so there's different uses of the idea of one through the system you had a terms up there from the speech earlier about never being born ever perishing right truth never said to come to be nothing but time it cannot come into existence from the house out of existence what you do with analogy and what I'd like to see is a demonstration of the relation between truth with respect to the state of mind when you realize that the relations may vary but the relations are constant because if the relations are constant how can those ever said you come to be or pass out of existence the idea of relations being constant though the terms may vary right is something therefore that you can apply terms to necessarily and it must have as you just mention that must have relations among them so therefore it has to be below this so right past the people allow the idea of truth and and Plato is quite interesting it takes on two meanings if one if one has had this vision then one knows the nature of reality okay if you know the nature polity then whatever you say about it that's consistent with that would be truth because the the things that you're going to attribute it to it if in fact your reasoning is sound they will all be truths therefore the truth of reality is what you can say about the nature of reality therefore another way of putting it which i think is even better and the idea of truth is also not forgetting see if one has this experience of reality it's impossible to forget it right it's something not forgiven if not forgettable you can't forget it you pass through the river of leith right there there's no forgetting and john forgot the word truth in greek galileo and this means not forgetting but another side to it is the idea of integrity everyone wants to know whether or not this existence of ours has any any reality and what we mean by reality should be whether or not it's meaningful whether it's some significance to it whether it's worthwhile whether we're here for some purpose whether it whether we can gaze upon let us say the experience of beauty in itself and see the in that experience that life is worth living we want to see whether life is worth living you can only get down to the experience of ultimate reality therefore the person who can say in that experience life is worthwhile because the existence of beauty the experience of beauty itself that's truth that's true what because it necessarily follows from the experience of beauty the nature of reality being such as it is you would be then making a truth therefore reality and truth are always together let me go again the things that things that you perceive directly from the experience of reality has to be what you can say is true that those things that you can say about it which are true is that it it is the source of all value that's true you know I cover what you're saying yeah one two three yeah okay yeah sir this close I must tell you that I don't read other philosophers except at work that was a joke let me answer you more fully I have not read anyone in Western philosophy and he major thinker deals with this Heidegger who's now going Hegel and haider they're going back to this idea of being but they don't understand it this one so you're absolutely correct my comments I hope can be found and could be traced to everything in the text itself now the modern rendering of being is does not have any of those and in that sense you're quite right that is to say they wouldn't agree with it because they don't think that's what being is the basic difference between European philosophies and classic philosophy hangs on this one word then it's as if your pins don't understand the nature of being in platonic thought in the Platonic tradition now this isn't not just the symposium it's the Republic you can see the same thing especially in latinas you can see it for free you can see it in pro clothes see it I am blaa cos so this is representing a platonic tradition for some strange reason and I want to assure you I haven't got the faintest idea why it's the case Europeans do not deal with us that is to say modern philosophers do not deal with this I don't they go they talk about being in time this is timeless by definition this is out of time and space matter of fact is great work as being in time and Sartre as well talking about no Western closer but Eastern philosopher even though he doesn't at least shortage I'm thinking roomie oh yeah it's Romeo that's conception of being oh yes why trouble yeah yeah shewhart and roommate yes yo-yo and it's also consistent with Hindu thought we'll put him in there too no no see the question we're running around the interesting question there's a question that's on the on the net on wide world the web and there's a Plato group on the net and the one question the major Bank basic question which you always come sooner or later is in what class do you place this thinker called Socrates and Plato what other members are in his class because you say the kind of philosopher that talks this way is not a modern European philosopher it's as if the word itself has changed remarkably this I think as you were mentioning is quite right lao-tzu Buddhism the upon Ishod in other words this is a vision of Plato that belongs in a religious tradition of which they are members and that's the kinds of people who should be compared against and not with Heidegger and Schopenhauer and live notes and etc that's what I'm willing to entertain any notion of info yes beautiful picture oh yes the language is all midwifery be getting be getting helping be get bringing to birth and they care nurturing growth yes oh yes and Socrates calls himself that's a function of a teacher yes oh yes yeah yeah that's perhaps why the modern movement in philosophical counseling may promise to be a return to the ancient sooner or later yes the ultimate reality ultimate reality when experienced in that the experience is beautiful then the effect it has on you is Wow no wow that's magnificent you know hey by the way what was it you experienced I don't know it had these qualities what qualities why there's no end to it no up and down fantastic and in the respect to no difference is anywhere it's beyond all space and to put all those words together you say oh I know what you mean being so there that's a conclusion from what can be asserted about the nature of the experience anyone sees the beautiful in anything they find it arouses a desire for it and therefore what's magnificent about this to see right from the beginning of the dialogue is that if this is once perceived then you'll do anything you can to get back to it and dive into it again and again because it will awaken a terrible Oh matter of fact in the Phaedrus that's what he describes it he says hey you know what mankind has been spared really management's despair to a great misery and he has it this way because if if wisdom could be seen with the human eye it would arouse a terrible load and you'd do anything and everything to pursue this we're saved so in that sense wisdom and beauty one can I third be word since we go beautiful tonight and being or a bliss another description of the feeling that you get you get in touch with do I say to go maybe I'm mr. Kwan we used to look beautiful yes Abby I won't just add another word yes this oh yes oh yeah it's just not a deal woman oh yeah another big word yeah absolutely yeah let's Ponte pull all of the great turns you're quite right now dead soon creates the physical universe soul soul creates soul seeks that upon which it can emerge it's a descent and Platina sit sit it's that we are and sold anything living is then sold that is to say the soul enters it brings with it its life and its purpose but what you're saying is it creates that I if you have that quote I'd like to see it because I don't know yeah what do you mean we're in Seoul versus being embodied it's what do you mean I'm so big and so and sold and sold versus being embodied Oh Oh No yeah when it is and sold it is embodied yes there certainly is this actually should be written this way to be more correct so therefore you have that participation this has a participation model to it this does not this is stratified so here if that's intellect then there's a part of soul which necessarily has intellect shares and participates in it where you could talk about it in which intellect descends yeah yeah yeah apartment for any reason you do four of these circles rather than the five levels oh I always leave that on okay no reason at all no that's true that's true what you're saying is the degree to which the one therefore can be said of other things means that other things must share in it you're moving therefore from this step the step you're making is propolis right that's that's what propyl is contributes he says that part of which one and intellect share is called oneness why the he knows what he calls a no partner the eminent one yeah and no one knows so hardly talked about Socrates contribution to this dialogue two speakers to say oh you're talking now about a great subject which is true for every dialogue and that is it sometimes it takes this form what is the architecture of the dialogue all right so the dialogue the dialogue itself is situated where people are already present before Socrates gets there sitting in a circle and each one is required to give a full dress oration praise of love right and the rule is that anyone who gives a really good speech that will be enough and the next person doesn't have to speak and therefore if the second person speaks he thinks he can improve on his predecessor and therefore Socrates who's the last speaker if he he's going to give a speech in principle he should then have it's a correcting right that should be a remedial or correcting device for all the other speeches now there's another speech that comes later Alcibiades which is extremely important but I think you're asking about well how do you understand the architecture of the dialogue why are they are their speeches why couldn't he have just given the speech of dear team as a separate and different length each one of these speeches is taking a major theme which is true in Socrates of speech but they understand it on a lower level and the easiest one to give those Aristophanes that man is a unity that there's a a primordial division that man seeks the whole that man seeks a unity that man seeks some way of bringing himself together into a unity into a oneness that's what Socrates is doing but he understands it physically until you get to the end of his speech and therefore he understands has done another level at the end of his own speech where he says you know the real way to make the human race happy he said of course is only one way find a lover who suits your own mind forget the body correct that that demolishes there's old thesis and the beautiful speech that he gave a fun speech I enjoyed it very much now let me go back to your question with one point now all right in every speech I mean in every speech and in every dialogue that Socrates is involved in there is always a drum drama a dramatic play between appearance and reality always they give the appearance and all the ways in which that can be misunderstood he gives the reality and therefore in the end of the dialogue he has that wonderful exploit between Agathon Aristophanes and himself as they're passing the wine and that's tragedy comedy in the philosopher and that's the big question for philosophy isn't it you know is the nature of our reality or tragicomic allottee or not you know where does philosophy have a sufficient vision to see behind the tragicomic ality of everyday life something profound because as you know Aristophanes can only be comic and respect to the fact that they can't be any basis for meaning or significance I went on and said too much I hope I didn't still have a piece of it bring it back thank you very much for letting me share this with you I always enjoy it you

Channel: PostNothingness

Views: 1,232

Rating: 5 out of 5

Keywords: Philosophy

Id: h1bAPgWIFm8

Length: 76min 40sec (4600 seconds)

Published: Fri Jan 23 2015