Orphan (2009) KILL COUNT

foreign [Music] count where we tally up the victims in all our favorite horror movies I'm James a Denise and today we're looking at orphan released in 2009 orphan is an evil kid movie in the vein of the omen and the Bad Seed it's also straight up ridiculous and has to be seen to be believed seriously this is one you'll want to watch before the kill count although it is full of sensitive topics that it barrels through on its way to shock and thrill you alcoholism marital Strife stillborn children hearing impairments all of this and more are thrown into a blender to whip up a campy horror movie and by God I think it works orphan was co-produced by Dark Castle entertainment the company behind early Arts horror films like ghost ship and the 13 Ghosts remake they also produce the remake of House of Wax which was directed by orphan's director jalma Colette Sarah he and screenwriter David Leslie Johnson McGoldrick who would go on to write The Conjuring sequels and the Aquaman movies okay employed common horror cliches all over this thing to distract the audience from figuring out what exactly is wrong with Esther again if you don't know anything about this movie please go watch it right now I envy your position because it's truly an honor to meet Esther an all-time excellent horror villain she's played by the then 12 year old Isabelle Fuhrman who I can't stress enough is absolutely incredible in the role it's one of the best kid acting performances I've ever seen she's so good as the character that I'm thrilled she gets to do it again in the upcoming prequel orphan first kill which releases to some theaters and Paramount Plus in one week Friday August 19th sure Furman was 23 when they filmed first kill which is somehow supposed to take place before this movie but whatever man I'll take it I'm especially interested since the filmmakers have said they didn't use CGI to de-age her instead apparently relying on makeup and forced perspective shots now for me when it comes 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up with ball toner spray I've just said balls so many times but it's worth it because after all that people will just have to let you know that go to manscape.com today to get 20 off and two free gifts when you use the promo code kill count 20. that's promo code kill count20 at manscape.com for twenty percent often two free gifts let's see how many people about to have a Hard Knock end of life and get to The Kills the movie begins again Blinky blacklight title card our main couple Kate and John Coleman enter a hospital looking like a Claritin commercial Kate's in labor with the couple's third child until a bloody wheelchair ride denotes the worst thing possible I'm so sorry for your loss what your baby's dead turns out this glossy experience is a nightmare that Kate's been having ever since the stillbirth of their would-be third child whom they were going to name Jessica the traumatic event led to a period of alcoholism for Kate and though she's been sober lately she still lost her job teaching music at Yale that's okay though Jon provides a good income as an architect or maybe that tube on his back is so he can resell Comic-Con exclusive Mondo drops either way they can afford to live in this gorgeous home in what I think is meant to be Hamden Connecticut that's based on the license plates and a few other hints although the movie was filmed in Montreal the colemans have two biological children 12 year old Daniels a rambunctious little shit bird five-year-old Max is partially deaf can read lips and sleeps in a bed covered in popcorn balls I think the cast does a great job acting like a real family especially the seasoned performers playing the parents Vera Farmiga is probably best known to People Like Us for The Conjuring series while Peter sarsgaard was recently seen in the Batman which is not a horror movie at first Kate and John seemed like a happy loving couple hell he even worms his wood into her in the kitchen they are so damn horny for each other which you know I get later on though we see that their horniness is just a Band-Aid over deeper said issues spoiler alert John kind of sucks Jessica's stillbirth weighs heavily on the family Max even has a children's book to help her understand foreign I can't speak to how accurate farmiga's sign language is here but she does a great job conveying her grief and giving us context as to why this couple needs to adopt another child I just don't want you to feel like we have to go through with this for my sake it's not just for you I I I'm gonna take the love that we felt for Jessica and I want to give it because the next the next day the couple makes a snowy drive out to Saint Mariana's home for girls an orphanage headed by Sister Abigail who leads them inside as someone watches from the attic Billy is that you or maybe it's just the cam up waiting to be adopted while Kade observes some children being terrorized by a fucking hideous clown what the fuck Jon wanders up to the second floor to admire orphan artwork ah yes big egg over barbed wire that Bird's cloaca must be Aiken he's lured into a classroom by the sound of singing and discovers its source as this pint-sized Picasso this is Esther played by Isabelle Fuhrman who would go on to appear in The Hunger Games and disappear from Escape room Tournament of Champions this movie pretty much lives or dies by this 12 year old's performance and thankfully she does an amazing job all while doing a vaguely Eastern European accent my paintings always tell stories this one's about the sad mother lion who can't find her cops Furman had a dialect coach to teach her this Estonian accent and again I can't stress how much this movie succeeds based mostly on her startlingly mature performance you always gotta remember though that great kid actors are still just kids I loved seeing her seem like a kid a smart one discussing the role in interviews she was such a complex character and I don't know something about her just drew me to her and I thought she would be such a challenging character to play and be a lot of fun Kate catches up with her husband who's been admiring Esther's c-man fan art and their immediate connection with the orphan is noticed by Sister Abigail she explains that Esther's originally from Russia the family that brought her to the U.S died in a mysterious house fire despite that as there's been relatively well adjusted he's a bit of a princess actually she wears those ribbons on her wrists and her neck all the time the only time we've ever had trouble with her is when we've tried to take them off yo I've read the green ribbon that girl's head gonna fall off the couple decides to adopt Esther and three weeks later she goes home with them to meet her new family she quickly bonds with Max through sign language but Daniel isn't a fan of hers after she interrupts his aperol Spritz time oh come on stop give it 10 years kid that outfit will be called cottage core Esther will have a tick tock with haul videos from vintage stores her handle will be at aesthetic Daniel doesn't like that he's no longer the center of attention but maybe if he wants respect he should play on Expert come on kid surrender is a tier one song I bet Esther 100 Freebird on the rigs a few days later while paintballing in the woods Daniel decides to stop shooting soldiers and start shooting Messengers this pigeon ain't made of clay though and he quickly regrets his decision Bart Simpson's style Esther shows up with Max in tow and turns this into a teachable moment put it out of its misery it's in pain and it's your responsibility Daniel refuses so Esther asserts her dominance and does the deed for him strangely ruthless reaction for this little girl to have also strange the old Bible Kate finds while cleaning Esther's room there's a picture of a man inside is that Matthew Mark or Luke I know it's not John he looks way different at school the next day our little James T jerk bully zester by knocking that Bible out of her arms wait that is a Bible right is this a Bible ask in the real questions miniature mean girl this is Brenda and she's been bullying Esther since day one oh look Little Bo Peep texts me she wants her outfit back talking shit in school that's a Paddington Brenda continues to pester by turning her good book into confetti but she goes too far when she tries to take off the neck ribbon it causes this bow to Lair to go ballistic like she just watched a pancake milkshake bunny explode Esther calms down in time for a piano lesson with Kate something she expressed interest in when she first arrived you have a piano yeah would you like to learn how to play I would love too I was not surprised to learn that Vera Farmiga is a classically trained pianist the shots of her playing are way too impressive for her to evade them when Kate tries to bring up Esther's issues at school Esther changes the subject by asking about Baby Jessica whose name she learned from Max in response Kate shows her Jessica's Memorial in their Greenhouse he scattered her ashes here as long as this plant grows and part of her will be alive inside it living black girl Jon takes the girls on a playground outing where he's hit on by his neighbor Joyce but even though this racy mom has got it going on Jon remains faithful and deflects her advances all that MILF guarding leads to a smoke break giving militant Matilda the opening to slip away she stalks mean girl brendina George whom she spots on her Lonesome wearing pink must be a Wednesday after a very drawn out horror sequence complete with creaky floorboards and fake out jump scares Esther pushes Brenda from the top of the playscape breaking her ankle upon impact Max sees the whole thing go down but refuses to sell out her sister at the dinner table and did you see what happened maybe she's just looking out because without Esther she'd never get to eat what mom what's she saying she wants you to pass the bread and butter wasn't asking you well we were asking you to learn ASL for your deaf sister you whiny little shit Daniel's had enough of Esther and calls her the r word which earns him a padlock punishment his Treehouse hangout is closed for now meaning he can't get to his porno mag or Fierce Street costume did not expect orphan to be a movie that technically has boobs in it whoa Kate is unsure of Esther's innocence at the playground and her suspicions are further aroused when she finds her playing piano like a prodigy revealing that she's not the fledgling player she pretended to be Jon shrugs it off which will become a habit for him and their argument opens Old Wounds about a time when John cheated on her it's been like 10 years what does it mean it's been 10 years you say that like it it actually means something it's only been two years since you told me in turn John references something that happened to Max when Kate had a drinking problem the spousal argument brings a smile to Esther's face yep things are going smoothly for the little schemer until they get an unconventional visit from Sister Abigail who's here to save this movie's tagline I think there could be something wrong with Esther Kate had called her about the playground incident so this captain of the barn did a little digging after you told me about the girl in The Playground I called her old school she called her old school didn't text her nothing apparently a boy at her last school accidentally fell on some scissors and a house fire that killed the family that brought her to the U.S involved Foul Play It Was arson sabatula and Eve's dropping Esther don't like what she hears so she runs upstairs to recruit her impressionable little sister there's a mean lady here she's come to take me away will you help me Esther is a master manipulator and Max is a perfect first Mark she's young and trusting and Esther exploits her disability by pretending she cares through ASL she employs the skills she learned from fagin and the ocean nine-year-old's Heist yields a non-cracker and Jon's keys to the office safe inside of which there's a gun Esther tries to export some culture with a game of Russian Roulette do you want to play and when that fails demonstrates more Hometown Pride by making this a chekhov's gone maybe later Sister Abigail leaves and the girls wait for her car by a bridge near their house Esther commands Max to wave down the nun promising they'll only scare her when Max hesitates the good rough son treats her like Mr Highway and shoves her in front of the sister's speeding car luckily this Mother's Superior driving narrowly avoids Max but when she gets out to see what's happened she's met with a certified Aunt Maggie special try not to leave any good guys shoe prints in the snow Abigail is still for a second but her apparent death is just a Sister Act Esther gets back in the habit of murder and kills Abigail by CCH pounding her head repeatedly that is a seriously bad influence on Max orphan is the film debut for Max's deaf actress Ariana engineer she laid to represented Canada with her brother at the opening ceremony of the 2010 Winter Paralympics Esther hides the bloody clothes and Hammer in the tree house and threatens Max to keep her mouth shut I had to kill her because she was going to tell on me here you're not going to tell on me are you she spots Daniel watching them as they walk back to the house so she gives him a similar treatment that night I find out that you're lying I'll cut your hairless little prick off before you even figure out by this point Esther has cemented herself as one of my favorite bizarre little horror villains and we're only halfway through the film Esther's recent Behavior lands her an appointment with Dr Browning played by character actress Margo Martindale a U of M grad go Blue Dr Browning is Kate's therapist whom she talks to about her struggles with sobriety I'm not sure why Esther isn't being taken to you know a child psychologist but I'm sure this can be justified by this lady's Keen perception there's not a deeply rooted problem in Esther's past oh she says there's nothing wrong with her no or not also what was going on through that window back there why is that in this movie Esther has gotten Dr Browning to buy into her Bojack horse shit it's practically magic how the therapist now believes Esther's behavioral problems stemmed from Kate she's really doing her best to please you but you're blocking her attempts to bond if only they could see Esther kicking her own ass in the bathroom Jim Carrey style John sides with Esther and Dr Browning and refuses to listen to his wife he leaves her outside as she gets a call from Sister Judith another nun at Saint marinara's school for pasta girls Judith is in a panic spiral since Sister Abigail never made it back to the orphanage a police search of the surrounding Woods turns up her body because I guess no one noticed that crashed car for however long it's been Kate follows up with a pointed internet search but her misgivings about Esther further alienate her from Jon he invites Esther to paint in his office with him where she not so subtly casts shade on Kate's parenting I don't think mommy likes me very much that's not true mommy loves you it's all right it must be hard to love an adopted child as much as your own in response to that awful line from Esther adoption groups complain that this movie promoted negative stereotypes about adoption the line was cut from the trailer and on its DVD release the movie starts with a pro-adoption message good sentiment but man couldn't they have picked a better font Jon suggests Esther do something nice for Kate so she accepts this Call of Duty and emerges from the shadows of evil with some Jessica roses I picked these flowers Just For You incensed by Esther ruining her Memorial to Jessica Norma takes the baits and grabs the girl this gives her an opening for more cry Wolverine and that night Esther sneaks into the tool shed using a vice grip she breaks her own arm God damn Esther is Hardcore the broken bone is blamed on Kate so Jon banishes her to the couch with the fate of her family up in the air a stressed out Kate is driven back to the bottle instead of imbibing though she steadies herself and empties one of them down the drain the next morning at school while Kate is helping Daniel with some books that have fallen out of his suspiciously sliced open bag Esther sneakily releases the parking brake the family car dangerously zooms down the parking lot and while a snow bank cushions Max from any Serious injury it's the last straw for Jon who once again blames Kate he calls over Dr Browning for an intervention against his Good Wife girls found this this morning girls found it you mean Esther found it formiga is heartbreaking here as she tells them that she wasn't drunk while dropping off the kids the only reason that I'm sober is because of Max and Daniel that is the only reason I look at the pond I think about what would have happened had you not been there and it makes me want to kill myself but her pleas are ignored by John who calls her manipulative solidifying himself as a top 10 shitty horror husband he gives her a week to go to rehab and says he'll take the kids away if she doesn't Kate tries to get ahead and sneak out with the kids that night but she stopped by Esther who finally drops the friendly facade go to your room honestly we're past that no aren't we she reveals that she's read Kate's journal and fills us in on the details of the pond accident I'm not the one who passed out drunk and let Max almost drown in the pond if it wasn't for John she be dead and you'd probably still be in jail it's partly nice that the gas lighting is over and Esther is being openly evil towards Kate but Kate's hands are still tied due to the threat of child services what are you going to do hit me well she's nine so if the dealer has a two then probably the next day Kate sneaks into Esther's room to dig up some dirt a better look at her Bible reveals an inscription in the back The sarn Institute she calls their number to ask about Esther assuming it's her previous orphanage it is not he is not come from here well I haven't even told you her name yet you do not understand certain Institute is not an orphanage it is a mental hospital sick about how much this is no ordinary family anymore Daniel confronts Max about sister Abigail's death some incriminating crayon drawings indicate that the evidence is hidden in his tree house when he goes up there to check things out Esther's waiting for him with a bottle of lighter fluid she sets both the evidence and The Treehouse Ablaze then pan box the door again trapping the young boy inside he's forced to escape outside where the Flames threaten to engulf him in pixels and after jumping onto a wooden beam the kid falls to the ground he's knocked out cold and Esther prepares to take out this potential stool pigeon but Max intervenes stalling her long enough for Kate to come and reach them Daniel is taken to the hospital where he's in critical condition but still alive much to Esther Chagrin who is he Michael fucking Myers Kate begs John to open his eyes about Esther as the orphan Slips Away to take care of Daniel once and for all she Smothers him with a pillow while wearing his heart rate monitor which avoids detection and also shows how calm she is while murdering people Daniel actually did die here in the movie's original script but in the Final Cut there's no need for a Kill upon seeing her son nearly killed Kate marches up to Esther and bitch slaps her Mori style great now John's gotta deal with another the slap the violent Outburst gets Kate Sedated by the staff can they do that just drug a random woman who's not a patient or anything seems wrong Kate is forced to spend the night at the hospital while her family goes home without her John tucks the girls into bed before cracking into the other bottle of wine unaware that Esther's giving herself a very adult makeover with Kate's clothes and makeup oh man this is when the movie gets so freaking uncomfortable Esther shows off her new look all dressed in Orphan Black but John's feeling dope sick and although he loves smoking turns out he's not into cloves do you like it oh Jesus oh Jesus Is Right Esther takes advantage of her father's drunken state to get close with him oh my God this is so fucking gross I love you Daddy you too I really love you seriously what kind of intimacy coach did they have to have on set for this scene the way I died Esther's attraction to Jon has been hinted at throughout the movie but holy fuck is it absolutely torturous to watch play out her attempts to be a master of sex like her mother quickly get to be too much for Jon I'm calling sister Judith tomorrow we're gonna have a conversation about your future in this house because I can't do it I just I can't do it anymore love how this jackass throws in the towel the first time Esther's Behavior affects him even though his wife's been voicing her concerns for weeks and he's totally ignored her wishes back at the hospital Kate is awoken by a call from a doctor at The sarn Institute he recognized the photo of Esther Kate had sent earlier he says it's Lena clamor an escaped patient from Estonia and here's the movie's big Oliver Twist she has a rare hormone disorder it's called hypopituitarism it causes proportional dwarfism she only looks like a child according to our records Lena klama was born in 1976. she's 33 years old yep Esther slash Lena is not a nine-year-old girl she's 33 explaining her world weary wisdom and attraction to Jon she tricked the family here in Estonia into adopting her when she couldn't seduce the father she killed him and his whole family as wild as this twist is Lena was inspired by a real life person Barbara scalova a 34 year old Czech woman was adopted by two different families while posing as a child details about the incident are weird but they're out there if you want to read about it with Nothing Left to Lose Lena sheds her disguise which includes fake teeth in a takedown chest she also removes her ribbons which were hiding the scar she got at the Institute from thrashing around in a straight jacket as Kate rushes home to warn her family John hears a commotion and checks on Esther he finds her missing and her room demolished with a black light mural Left Behind didn't realize there was much demand for Hector Hammond porn but hey rule 34 you know man somehow these paintings are worse than what what you'd normally find in a bedroom with a black light The house's power goes out and sorry John no YouTube video is gonna help you fix that probably because your house is powered by Pink cartridges he takes a flashlight upstairs to investigate but a cash stab to the side portends the Lena formally known as Esther in a painful looking ordeal Lena excessively stabs Jon to death good luck exploring the infinite abyss of death noticing that she's got another witness to tend to Lino goes to get chekhovs gone right as Kate straight up crashes her car through the front of the house holy shit she discovers John's body and she doesn't need to jump into the source code to figure out who this killer is once again Farmiga shows that she's a grade A actor even if this is B-movie material and I don't mean the B-movie thing as an insult I love how fucking wacky and outlandish this movie is Kate searches for Max but doesn't find her instead she finds a bullet in her shoulder thanks to Lena who shoots her through an upstairs window in case you were wondering that's five hours of makeup and Prosthetics making this 12 year old look like an adult I wish I could find more details about this movie's makeup team but these Instagram stories from Isabel Furman will have to suffice for now Kate ties a tourniquet and escapes out to the roof where she sees Max getting cornered in the greenhouse by this wicked little thing Mama Bear don't like that so when the bullets start flying so does she oh my God she fucking Uso splashed her wait can we see that again but enhanced with the threat seemingly neutralized Maxson and injured Kate leave to meet the cops approaching the house but careful ladies this is the moment when the supposedly dead killer comes back to life for one last scare oh Jeff the fight spills out on cold and pawn the same one where Max nearly drowned because of Kate can't you people learn from the past the ice is gonna break Lena gets some licks in So Max grabs the gun to provide support but she misses her shot because she is five years old The Bullet Hole causes the ice to crack plunging both women into the freezing Pond after a brief struggle Kate emerges Victorious and starts to drag herself out her progress is impeded by Lena trying to hitch a ride and appealing to Kate's motherly instincts but Kate's done playing she just wants to quote the ring too I'm not with a swift kick Lena is sent down into the icy deaths good night you princess of pain you Queen wait I'm sorry is this a reference to Jack's death in Titanic the movie ends with the police finding Kate and Max their orphan ordeal finally over how many people fell victim to this family's Growing Pains let's find out and get to the oh fuck I didn't write a bit for this part only three people died in orphan a pint-sized body count for a pint-sized killer the victims consisted of one man and two women all three of whom were technically adults interestingly enough we've only seen this exact kill count and gender breakdown once before way back in the dentist with a run time of 123 minutes we had a kill on average every 41 minutes I'll get the golden Chainsaw for coolest kill to Esther slash Lena clamor yeah the character's 33 but what we're actually seeing is a full-grown woman a little girl with the face that's fucking wild y'all and I don't have a doll machete for this one the other two kills were both solid in their own right I don't want to punish them by default and that's it orphan came out in 2009 and it's prequel orphan first kill will be released to some theaters and Paramount plus next week if there's enough interest I'll cover it one day but until next time I'm James a genise this has been the kill count oh the next kill count welcome to the Australian Outback where the ruse run rampant and the sky is Big bugger off Montana while you're here grab a slab of coldies and head over to the famous Wolf Creek crater that's awesome of course it's dangerous to go alone so consider a tour guide like Mick Taylor what the bloody Lu mob doing out here he'll entertain you with his authentic Aussie charm now pigs were different you have to get in close you know get the dogs on them and then you go in with a knife and stories of pig murders just don't quote Crocodile Dundee to him that's not this isn't off well you might end up gagged tortured and chased through the Outback never where I might pop up Wolf Creek is relentlessly brutal with a villain that makes the viewer feel as helpless as the blokes and Sheila's in the movie bye look on your fucking face but it's bloody effective and the cinematography is a real beaut well that's impressive so this week ever pissed up and watch Wolf Creek for yourself then on Friday Tune In For the Kill count only on dead meat that's not a mind this is a knife Wolf Creek can currently be watched on the picture streaming platforms Sammy always recommends you watch the movie for yourself before it's kill count it's the only way to have your own properly informed opinion kill counts are never meant to replace the experience of watching a film thanks a lot for watching this kill cow I always consider this movie a kill cow Contender but this episode was expedited when the prequel's release date was announced so thanks Tim for writing that first draft pretty quickly who had never seen orphan then watched it before the kill count and was surprised by The Twist let me know in the comments I'm curious to see I want to thank some patrons like sea bass123 Zachary Brad skanecki Kyle Simpson Johnny Boy Paul wilcoxon and Vivian Mason thanks everyone be good people

Channel: Dead Meat

Views: 2,104,027

Keywords: horror, dead meat, movies, scary, films, kill count, body count, james a. janisse, jaj, pine commander boogie, DMKC, dead meat kill count, dead meat james, orphan, orphan 2009, orphan 2009 reaction, orphan 2009 review, orphan movie, orphan horror movie, new orphan movie, new orphan movie 2022, horror movie review, horror movie reaction, scary movie review, scary movie reaction, isabelle fuhrman, isabelle fuhrman orphan, orphan 2009 explained, orphan explained, jaume collet-serra

Id: v8GojCTTkzg

Length: 27min 12sec (1632 seconds)

Published: Fri Aug 12 2022

Reddit Comments

[u/ColtPersonality92]

I love this movie. I was convinced that Isabelle Fuhrman was going to break out after this, but that unfortunately never happened.

EDIT: Ok, so after watching the video I feel like I have to defend the John character.

As a member of the audience, of course we’re going to be like “gah what are you doing?”, but if I were in this movie I’d be more inclined to go against Kate.

James says it himself that the premise of this movie is so outlandish. I mean, would you think a nine year old is capable of such things? I know I wouldn’t.

I’ll spoiler mark the rest of my point since it delves into the climax.

As far as John throwing in the towel, wouldn’t you have some doubts if your daughter, who you think hasn’t even reached a double-digit age yet, tried to seduce you? Personally I viewed it as him finally realizing Kate was right.

Of course, James is free to have his own opinions on the matter. This was just my two cents on what is one of my favorite horror movies.

On another note, WOLF CREEK! We’re going from one underrated movie villain to another. Mick Taylor is such a great bad guy.

[u/Unlikely-Meaning8919]

The way I recoiled at THAT part. Jayzus, I was not prepared.

[u/Mr-IT-Guy]

"Probably because your house is powered by ink cartridges??"

Those are just normal circuit breakers from the breaker box.

Also, thanks for bringing back the "McConaughey".

[u/benjo3686]

L I V I N G P L A N T G I R L

Absolutely fantastic episode, love it when James covers movies with bugnuts plots. I wondered why he didn't comment on the actress playing the nun when she first showed on screen, but it made for a good pun later during her death scene.

[u/mcwap]

What movie is the weird sound clip from when the mom breaks through the glass onto the kid?

I watched that one last week but can't remember which one it was for the life of me!

Edit: nvm I remembered... The Texas chainsaw movie with Matthew McConaughey!

[u/KohlerMiles]

James’ “Don’t you people learn from your mistakes? THE ICE! IS GONNA BREAK!” was absolutely hilarious. Great video!

[u/gclem16]

Great great KC as usual. But holy shit Wolf Creek is getting the treatment next. I’m so happy. It’s such a sadistic movie but I didn’t expect a KC. Let’s go!

[u/HonestTangerine2]

I forgot how much this movie hits every mark. I cringed, was horrified, laughed, cried. Everything lmao. I’ll never forget everyone clapping at the end.

[u/ShiftyBea]

So, from the YouTube comments, I learned that people-

...wanted James to count the baby that died through miscarriage, which is fucking gross.

...don't know how to listen and say James didn't count the son.

...really think James thinks houses are powered by damn ink cartridges.

...still haven't learned not to fucking request in the comments.

...actually listened to James and watched the movie beforehand.

That last one is actually good.