Open Table Talks | Session 13

hi everyone right now straighten up yeah now we got it thanks for coming and for join us today our last time of Table Talk this week we have eaten jurors at coming in which is an upgrade from her husband Brad except I'm not wearing a hat today no rightful we're grateful for you to be with us Eden it's a it's a pleasure and Brad Baxter Kruger Kenneth Tanner Paul Young way and Katie's kerja and I'm John McMurray and anyway several things we want to try to address today we had a question about prayer and why do we pray and that's the big topic we'll probably leave that out I would just say this and let anybody else chime in a thought they want to hear but I think of prayer as this ongoing conversation with God and the longer I spend talking with him and listening to him the better I get to know his heart so that when I finally do ask for something I'm asking for his what his heart wants in me anyway and so it it's a part of the process of what it means to know him in communicating and that's how I look at it I don't look at trying to get God to do something or give me something or something like that Kenneth did you want to say something no just letting Arthur know that we're we've got to be quiet and nobody get a little loud so anyway that's one of the things that helps me it's just an ongoing conversation and list which involves both talking and listening so the other question that we got and we do we get this question a lot and I'm gonna actually not throw this one to Paul to begin with a question that we get a lot often is we were talked a lot yesterday about the Incarnation and that we the human race not just people who believe but the human race is included no person is left out of what Jesus has done and who he is and that were our union with him so the question comes up then why faith why some why is so much made of believing fate or trusting and faith in the scriptures why did Jesus talk about it so much Sir Paul I'll let you start us off with that one I'm gonna turn it over to Baxter who's got a great story about this okay preciate this was a burning question back when I studied in Aberdeen trivet heart and anthem ale and Dave Dory's and several others and I would get together we were studying Bart studying torrents I started in a church and we I kept coming back and what about faith the Gospel of John it's known as the gospel of beliefs I mean 90 something times he talks about belief he doesn't use the word faith he says it's an action for him believing but and in the process of that I came across a story about told by Thomas Erskine I believe in his book the unconditional freedoms of the gospel which has to be the best title ever happened to keep a copy right here on my desk original edition anyway I think I've a greatly embarrassed him embarrassed it and embellished it and it's run through my southern mom but here's the story there was there was a woman who had one child a son and he was a volunteered to serve in the British services and he was in the Navy and one morning she got up and was going to make her tea and she noticed hanging out of the mail slot in the door was a yellow letter and she recognized that as being from the British Navy and her husband was at work and she opened the letter and it said mrs. Jones the ship HMS enterprises cause there has sunk and all souls are lost in whichever sorry for your loss implying that her son was on ship and so she immediately goes into a fit of depression she manages to call her husband he comes home she cannot be consoled and this goes on and on and on for weeks and weeks and weeks and she just gets to where she's half of she being and she just doesn't care anymore when her son is dead and that's it and her husband tries to get her medical attention and carrier and nothing's working it and eventually their relationship begins to be strained in the yard and the house is messed and all her friends would come over but they quit coming after a while and so one day she gets up and she's gone back in the kitchen to get some water I make her some tea and she notices another letter this hung in the mail slot in the door and it's yellow and she just you know begins a like purr Pete's I can't that's leave me alone she opens it up she noticed a strange handwriting on that side she opened it up and the letter says mom my ship sunk I swam to an island I lost a lot of weight I'll be home in two weeks please get in the kitchen signed her son and immediately she believes that this is her from her boy and she calls her husband she calls her friends they begin to work on the house they begin to work on the yard at being the plaintiff east and they're going to have the biggest party in all England and I sat and read this story because Earth can is using this to illustrate faith and he's particularly using it to illustrate the fact that it her son was alive she believed that he was dead and it affected her entire life instantly and it got worse and worse and worse and then once she received a letter from her son stating the truth that he was in fact alive not dead she had to make a decision in this case she made the decision instantly she recognized his handwriting and how that what she believed affect her emotional in her world and also the way she related to everything around her and that solved the riddle for me but the truth is not something when we make true by believing the truth is something we discover as true and by believing in this truth begins to have an impact upon our inner world and the way we relate and see everything around us and that story graphically illustrates that to me that in modern America it's almost as if faith is a magical like a Harry Potter magic one if we strain enough that we can make something real it's not real whereas the gospel is the news of what's real that we're all included if we don't know about this it does not something that we believe then we're suffering in the absence of that knowledge and that suffering is affecting our inner world and our relationships and everything else that we do and see around us so faith doesn't make anything real in that sense it is laying hold and seeing it's believing that which is true that which is real that's what God has done in Jesus but without it you can continue as Jesus says to live in your darkness or in your unbelief and your unbelief will destroy you that's what he says your unbelief your sin you will die and it will create death in your life that's his reason way I can tell it story but I think you get right to the point of a way to hold together the reality the truth that we're all included in this relationship this is what God has done it's true whether we know it whether we believe it whether we were hurt or not it's there it's real as we come to believe we change from the inside out in all kinds of ways beautiful that's really good I think that's partly why I like the word trust as opposed to believe because it is a whole person active present-tense kind of thing so it's it's one thing to believe something is another thing to trust it well Trust is very much at the heart of the New Testament concept of belief absolutely never been an abstract concept in a bird condition it reminds me that story reminds me of the you know John's accounts of the Resurrection when Peter and John are running to the tomb you know Peter rushes in it comes back out then John he's sort of peering in and he sees the folded clothes he doesn't see the resurrected Jesus he sees the way that the folded clothes are left in the corner and there's something about seeing that that just awoke it you know just awoke his trust in him that that the personality that he knew that he certainly had seemed I was now alive again in the world and so it reminds me of that that little account on the golf-ball it's very similar and in in that same gospel at the end John says I've written these things to you that believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God and that I think the newer translations say and that believing you might have life through his name which makes it sound like a transaction when it's not it's a present tense it's as you continue to believe as you continue to trust you continue to experience life that's why the key word that you used in addition to falter to me is the word experience not saying you will have life now when you believe he's saying as you continue to trust and walk in this you will experience life then Jesus is sharing his life with his father but long as we're imposing our own agenda on top of that we're gonna be miserable Weston has a wonderful illustration that he uses to where he talks about the you know you don't know who you were not there when your parents copulated you know to make you but your mother has told you over your lifetime and the other members of your family have told you that this is your dad you know and and it and you you don't know you don't have this kind of like I observed and therefore know that this is my father but we've you've been told that then you spend your whole life trusting that this is your dad and of course the time before you know paternity test and that sort of thing but but he's describing the quality of not the sort of direct knowledge but this trusting the witness of those who are trustworthy that this is the reality and then you began of course you've been experiencing that your whole life and but it's yeah yeah the way that I would answer that question and talk about it John is that shame is a very real and powerful force in the world and I believe the most powerful force apart from grace and so though we're all included we don't operate it and like it and shame I mean I've broken record but the diamond gets covered in the pool of this world a shame and only grace only the saving grace of Christ can heal it we can't talk someone out of their shame I mean when we talk about this limbic brain you cannot talk someone out of shame and it's an experience of light that destroys shame and so we have no less need of a savior just because we're all included because we're not necessarily operating from the demon because of the shame in the world and the world over its shame as a universal force Katie would it be fair to say that the diamond us we reflect the light I think I that it's light yeah light overcomes darkness but we don't have light we question that we were talking about yesterday of the incarnation of our you know are we God we're not God but the light is in us we participate in God and God in us but we are not the fourth person of the Trinity but that light that diamond I mean it could get covered in poo and you lose sight of it and you don't know and you can't work yourself out of shame you can't talk yourself out of it you can't talk it out of somebody else the only thing that's more powerful than it is grace which is an experience of light a Brad that was not great that was not great that was our not the second uh-oh Katie the figure back on what you just said I think it's important this is one of the things I love about the story that earthscan tells is that the damage the instantaneous damage that not just for the individual person but for a relation with her husband in relation in relation to the house and in relation to your community that happens because of that shame or because of that non-seeing so it's not like you've got a bunch of people that don't know Jesus and they're basically good folks and everything's fine I mean it's a mess it's a narcissistic self-centered mess of fear running wild in their lives until we come to know that there's something more to us than the poo covered that they're that good most of the people who walk through my door are believers who don't know what it means to live from that diamond because they believe something other than the truth about their being because they don't understand the Incarnation or the goodness of God inside the Trinity remember that yeah any other thoughts you've got something to say I don't think I do actually I am listening it's fascinating because I think about all the different things that I have believed over my lifetime even with having forms of truth in my life that I should have known what to believe or what to understand about myself but part of that is that you know I grew up in an environment not so much like family but my my church environment my faith environment where it just got really convoluted along the way and we were we were told this but but then there's also this and there was always this back-and-forth and it's made us difficult for us so even you know even this week I was not having a very good day I was feeling good about myself all my other things that normally I consider my strengths suddenly just felt very weak and very vulnerable and like I was on the edge of being ashamed of them and I think when I came to the realization that the voice I was listening to wasn't God's voice that's when I could kind of turn around and go oh wait a minute I do know what the truth is I dunno I dunno how I am in front of God and how he's made me and you know I'm I'm well past half my life and I'm still struggling with that and I think a lot of people do and so for us to give permission to to continue to hone the skill of knowing truth leaving truth living in truth and having God be the voice we're listening to instead of our own shame or guilt or sin or whatever that's part of the reason we need community so badly is that we need somebody else to tell us the truth sometimes you know because the voices of our own history and shame and whatever are so loud at times that we just need somebody to stand on the outside and go like it's not true mm-hmm that's not true wouldn't it be wonderful if every Sunday morning we heard that message again you're talking about a clear message I even said you know Clare clarity wasn't a strong suit growing up confusion was I know exactly oh thank you Eden that that I think my friend our friend got Roberto come England singer-songwriter has a song it starts out do you believe what I believe about you you know what I know to be true and it's God singing to us challenging what we believe in and we're not we're lining up with him but if you have a view of God where he's at the very least disappointed in you it's not discussion then the last thing you want to do is believe what he believes about you it's really in the end it ultimately is the doctrine of God question is that dude do we have the power to change or alter the way God the Father Son Spirit feel about us do we have that power can something we do or think today change the way they feel or is this only about how I feel based on what I believe and bring it back to that truth that reality that we're included in in Jesus and this is that this is what thrills the Father's heart this is what he's dreamed and planned before the foundation well here we are in touch with what is really true and to be able to have community where you can hear that and hear that concretely is very rare but it seems to be growing Baxter I when I talk about inner healing I say I could boil it down to three words and it's getting God's perspective and you know what you're saying if you believe that God is disappointed in me then why do I want to turn towards him to get his perspective about anything right so the healing of our image of God is vital in the process of inner healing exactly and even especially when we finally get to the place where we could talk about Jesus Christ being as big a player in the cosmos as he is that he's included the inclusive man he's included the entire human race in himself even there we still have to say and this is exactly what the father's like what he's always wanted otherwise we're just opening up a gap we're okay it's all fine in Jesus but we still know the big guy ain't like us and that that doesn't that's why the evangelical so-called modern evangelical model of religion doesn't do anything to you inner world except exacerbate yeah yeah to get back to you know just John this question that you're asking about like an incarnation has occurred and how is everybody involved in that is to say that it happens with you know as the acts were saying it's already happened in Jesus Christ but it doesn't depend I think a lot of us were raised in this idea that like our decision for God brings us in to this connection and relationship and I just love the fact that the Christian story is that that the father is already related themselves to every human being as sir creator whether they're running from that a denial they're embracing that they're skeptical and it's the same thing with Jesus becoming our human brother you know it's it's a reality that he is he's become the human brother of every one who's ever lived by being born of Mary and and being conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and being born into the world and they've already invited us into the story so that it's not really because if it was dependent upon our decision Torrance is really good on this if we're up to our response or decision then some courts about some link in the chain connecting us and God would be dependent upon human volition in human decision in human effort and we would back you know to the thing of not being related because as Katie is pointing out our shame would come into that and our own understanding of our own lack of you know our own faith Lister's up and down and here and there and yet I really make this decision or did I really feel strongly about it and constantly questioning our mind well God has already acted to include all of us and it's not a response you know eventually comes I think when we realize Torrance would say once we realize that this has all happened on God's and apart from anything in us then the you know we rejoice in that and enter into that freely and I would add add to that this is something that's been on my heart for the last four or five years and I keep coming back to this in these all in all the zoom casts that I do and that is that that God didn't do this apart from my response my response was to reject and killed and down and curse the Word of God and he's taking up that response and woven that into the New Covenant and woven that into the manifestation of my adoption so that when I my relationship to the father-son spirit my inclusion in their life is not predicated upon my faithfulness it's predicated upon my unfaithfulness now I can relax and believe now I can begin to go this is marvelous and so I'm not navel-gazing not focused on myself and the quality of my faith whether or not I've done the right way there enough times and enough length of times to get me across the divide to get to them I'm realizing each time that he took my failures and turn that into my salvation I can rest here I can rest you today I think that speaks to the shame because you know I was thinking Baxter too that this connects back to yesterday's conversation in that the good news isn't that Jesus has just become our brother but the one who became our brother is the creator and so this whole thing is grounded in the one who made me in His image because Jesus is the creator and the implications of that again just explode if I just take time to actually think about that and what that means I think for anticipation talks about that a lot yeah in his constant decision to be one with the father is constant you know is his human in his human in his humanity his constant decision to being relationship and connection or the father and never to walk away from that connection is now ours but this this you know what Baxter's saying about even our failure is like he said yesterday when he said that was so mind-blowing for me even our failure is incorporated into God's decision for us so helpful it actually creates peace because if it still depended upon me to get it right and get across and that's going to foster despair on people like my part but it will foster pride because we actually think we've done what was supposed to do we actually think we're doing it as opposed to just being able to sit like it the Eucharist and sit and know this my contribution to the New Covenant was I damned beer and he took up my damning him my rejecting of the word of God by cursing him by lifting him up and turned that into not only the salvation of the human race but the New Covenant you can marvel it there that's one of TF statements he makes the me HD christ several times and in other papers where he's writing them on the the Jews or the Israel's role in this whole larger picture is he talks about loving God for God's sake and I used to I used to underline it every time I'd read that then what does that mean because I can't conceive of a loving God for any reason other than what I won't get out of it I can't mean I'm loving him in order to get saved but now I see that he has embraced me accepted me and turned my rejection of him into the eternal mercy seat now I can endure him not in order to get anything but because of and that seems to me a bit much deeper place to stand and sit and to cry there's no place there's no leaf that Jesus has not turned over in our darkness so no matter what we find ourselves in we it means that we can close our eyes and we can realize that this mess that I have made or this mess that has come to me has been turned into the basis of my salvation I just that's a relief that's beast this hope may his blood be upon us and upon our children yes just he just takes that that thing that said in hatred and had said in you know in vile vileness and mockery and everything and just turned those words into blessing Baxter I hadn't heard you say that before or hadn't pondered that that Torrance said that loving God for God's sake I don't know if you're familiar with Bernard of Clairvaux 'he's four stages of love but he that was the third stage for him was loving God for God's sake he said the second it's loving self forgot it's loving self herself loving God for self the third stage is loving God for God but the highest stage he said was loving self for God and that I think is living from your Margo day is the best thing that you can do for God that's being life certainly a thrill to his heart but that was Bernard and I like 14th century it certainly is is showing him that you believe in His goodness and you believe he is able to turn your evil into good and that that's your hope from what you live your life not in fear but you know both characters in the parable built a house right one did it on sand and it just took a storm to sweep it away yeah they built it on rock so the there is no essential link but is at risk here you know it's it's the rock but we still build a house yeah we all are building a house yeah there is no essential link that is at risk through together that's the rock right that's that's what you believe you believe there is no central risk that is there's no essential link that is at risk here and if you don't believe that you're going to be building building building Miller Miller which is North American Christianity and just constantly trying to create some of the empire for this to deity and to prove that that we are the ones who have gotten there I order more it's people to tears but and in with nothing essential at risk Paul it it it causes me I'm always stunned at this idea that God wants me to participate like he didn't create me to just you know play with me or you know pull things back and forth he wants a person that's actually going to participate and the joy of a relationship between he and I and not he and I individually only but he and the human race the community and that's that's stunning so he takes away those things that we would think would would be a barrier the problem is it says Eden said I often don't see that we see it in our kids and our grandkids yeah yeah I mean we have such clarity when we see it in the things that matter most to us it goes back to our view of God we don't see God with the kind of love that we experience for our own kids no I'm just thinking I was just thinking about what you guys are talking about it's very thought-provoking I'm thinking about when I was a kid and my relationship with God was such that I would turn to him when I felt worthy or like I hadn't messed up big time and then I could I could feel maybe a little bit of pleasure his pleasure on me but as soon as I messed up and you know that was going to be soon I would turn my back and kind of hide in a corner and and whatever pieces I had broken up I didn't want him to see it and then you know he'd be like Eden what are you doing and my desire was to fix it before I turned around so that he could see me at least somewhat hole and you know what I've discovered and even you know even with my dark day this week where I was hearing really awful things I I wasn't I wasn't feeling like I needed to hide my pieces in the corner and try to fix it before I found God I think what I where I've come to is I can turn around my back is definitely towards him if I'm listening to the wrong voice but I was able to turn around and go help me like you put the pieces together because I'm not actually able to do that mm-hm and and then that is again relationship building rather than me trying to trust myself and my own ability to contain a problem or fix something or get past something but I'm I'm engaging with God then giving him the pieces and saying and not having to be ashamed of that I broke this or I didn't believe this or whatever Eden when I and when I picture that you turning around and handing it saying god I can't I can't put this back together you know he bends down on his knee and says I will if you'll help me yes you'll do this with me right absolutely yeah so because that's what we do with our kids and our grandkids right oh yeah I can anyone we do this together and you know Brad and I we've done a lot of listening prayer over the years but what I'm finding is you know we've got good at asking the questions but you have to be willing in that moment to listen to the questions he's at like God is asking you so I've got all these pieces and he's like why do you believe that like why on earth are you taking the glorious things I've given you and now you're suddenly ashamed of them what's going on where did this happen and he's leading me through listening to him in an entirely different setup you know and it's really powerful but again it draws us into relationship instead of us feeling like we need to somehow be in some right place before we enter in you never know what was the right place is the right way to begin you and also tells you the power that we have with our children or grandchildren to to tell them the truth right and so you know one of the when when you said if he says to me why do you believe that well I had this dad you know and I mean I'm I just turned 65 on Monday and I got the first phone call from my dad on a birthday in my life Wow right he's 90 years old and and and so it's very short can I play it for you this is the first phone call that had to be big hi Paul this is your dad Henry your dad from Vernon just wanting to wish you a very happy birthday can still remember the day very vividly in my mind up in Grand Prairie Opera and it was a time of real joy and you've been a good son and I thank God for you bless you and have a wonderful day with you and yours and I hope you don't over love you very very much huh pasted print man that I know all right that's my fish phone call all my dad in my life that's wonderful but you can see how powerful that is and in terms of thank you Paul how long as James talks about right internship but even even the sense of fatherhood of God you know it's like there's reasons why we can't look in the face of God you know and and even that was you know I mean I'm pretty healed in so many respects but that was just another another dimension of it or another element that was just a absolute gift to me and you can you can hear him struggle with language you know he had to remind me that he's in Vernon and I remember a year ago and we were driving from morro beta's to San Jose Airport and you said that your relationship with your dad was one of the few if only that wasn't reconciled and that's so beautiful to hear that recording because he he sees you yeah well and and reconciliation is a long journey you know that is that represents as deep he's as he's ever been able to get and and I don't you know I and I've told you this before ten years ago on his 80th birthday is when you know he was 80 I was 55 and it took took me that long to release him from any expectations and an expectation that he ever be a dad and and that's part of the beauty of when you let go of expectations everything becomes a gift and this was a gift you know and I could I could sense the not just his faltering attempt to speak things of the heart that he is not used to finding words for but I could inside his words here the kindness and the voice of the fatherhood of Trinity you know and wrapping me inside the relentless embrace I still remember the day you were born how do you think not I'm decided and we know that it's always been jicama Paul thank you beautiful not just knowing the journey oh my gosh that's that's really awesome really thanks for letting me share that oh my gosh thank you for sharing it with us I think it's a beautiful little very powerful illustration of the whole place of facing and everything that we talk about today I mean just a little snippet like that that you hear you know jerks a world of hurt into a place it doesn't make everything go away but man it puts things in perspective Wow is like where were you when you got the message I was in the kitchen and Kim was just over 10 feet away and I put it on speaker and she just looked at me and shook her head and it's like wow you know miracles happen this is bigger than raising the dead or this is raising the dead thank you again yeah I'm so glad that you you understood that God is in that communication - hmm - you you know not not only in spying your dad to make the phone call but in the words themselves the inspiration the Spirit of God in him speaking out to you in ways that would that you needed yeah that's a great great note to end thanks again Paul but we're out of time a couple a couple things we want to tell you about if you would like to be on our mailing list so that you know of different events that we do whether it's online or in person you can just email us at Open Table Conference at gmail.com and we'll get that and we'll put you on our list to let you know about things I think Kenneth has an announcement here yeah so listen this is father Ken Elaine just talking to all y'all out there you need to go into your prayer closet and pray through about joining us for this conference coming up at the end of June what are the dates John 27 28 to 27 and 28 yep 28th of June Scott the painter Scott Erickson gonna be there Gaby viesta the the wind ships even Jessa Brad is gonna be there too but you know Eden's really who we're looking for but Bryan's on and just just a bunch more folk and it's not just like toxic work you know people are going to be giving the people you see here but and them but also chances to interact because of the zoom you'll be able to ask questions and the conversations we want to hear what you have to say - and yeah it's going to be really fantastic and we hope that you'll reserve your spot to get in now so we can kind of start planning figuring out you know how we're gonna you want to also like start to learn what workshops there are that you can sign up for and all that - right John they want to see the schedule so yeah there'll be a schedule come out and with all the different breakouts for sure so so quite getting your player cross and play through about joining us for that conference hey man thanks man you guys never were Thank You Baxter Eden Katie Ken Paul thanks for doing this not just this time but over the last several weeks I'm taking time it's I think it's been fun it's been fun for us just to see each other and talk even if no one else listens it's been good right thanks Baxter Paul I'll say brother you just may I know it made your your life but you that was fantastic it is I just wonderful I was I was like I don't know that I want to listen to this and then I realized how beautiful it was going to be crying we all be over very well burned Holy Spirit Thank You Holy Spirit we will have more please yes indeed hey I'm just one thing are you the other topic we didn't get to was you said about the feminine images of God you know just a shout out to a book that people might be interested in if someone's interested in that it's called is it okay to call God mother by Paul Smith is a good reference for that okay that's all god mother by Paul Smith okay I'll post that yeah okay okay that'd be great thanks so good to see you even get Brad our love love you yeah

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Length: 44min 13sec (2653 seconds)

Published: Sat May 16 2020